West Side Story (1961) with Becca Ramos

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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have.

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Speaker 3: Women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy, Zephy and Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 4: This is how all podcast should start. Now, that's a good way to sink audio is to do uh to do the West Side wos. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that was a solid intro. We just did what the movie did, right. I feel good about that.

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Speaker 1: I feel great about it. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Derante.

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Speaker 4: My name is Jabie Loftus. This is our podcast where we talk about your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens and the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point for discussion. But Caitlin, what is the Bechdel Test? Please tell me for the five probably literally the five hundredth time.

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Speaker 1: Probably yes, yes. The Bechdel Test is a media metric created by a dear friend of ours, Alison Bechdel. We go way back with her last year to last year. It appeared in her comic Dykes to Watch out For in the eighties. Originally also known as the Bechdel Wallace test. It has many versions of it. The one that we use is this, do two characters of a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other? And is there conversation about something other than a man? Also, we like it when it's like narratively meaningful dialogue and not just like throw away nonsense.

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Speaker 4: It can't be about Tony as the point, we cannot be talking or Bernardo about Tony or Bernardo and we're gonna encounter some challenges this week. Were to encounter some challenges this week, but we have. I mean I was talking with someone about the podcast yesterday as I've as I've been known to do. Oh sure, a friend of his show, Michael Hobbs, and he was saying he was like, oh, it must be like hard after almost ten years to keep finding, you know, new movies. And I was like, you would be surprised at like how many movies have been made and just like I don't know, there's no telling why, Like there's just some movies we haven't gotten to or like we there was a re release or a remake and it just didn't happen. I don't know all I had to say today is a movie that is probably one of the most famous movies that exists, and here we are covering it ten years later. Yeah, all I had to say podcast life is long, baby.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, we're talking about West Side Story nineteen sixty one, the original film adaptation. Here to talk about this movie with us is a cherished guest. She's the producer of some of your favorite podcasts such as Last Cult, Trista's, The Daily Zeitgeist and Mess. And she's the host of the new podcast Welcome to El Barrio. And you remember her from our episode on Magic Mike XXL. Never forget. It's Becca Ramos.

00:03:13
Speaker 2: Hello, God back a coveted stop on my press tour, the Bechtel Cast. I'm so excited to be back and to be here.

00:03:23
Speaker 4: Welcome back.

00:03:24
Speaker 1: It's great to have you here.

00:03:26
Speaker 4: Before we before we get into the rich text that is West Side Story, I want to know more about the podcast all us about Welcome to El Barrio.

00:03:35
Speaker 2: Yes, so, Welcome to a Barrio is a podcast about all things Puerto Rico, where I interview notable port riquas, whether they are artists, taste makers, community leaders, musicians, et cetera. About you know what they are doing to redefine what it means to be Puerto Rican, Puerto Rican, not Puerto Rico. And you know with the host by the end of every episode that all the listeners feel a little bit close to boring matter where they are in the world. So I'm so excited to be doing it. It's been like five years in the making, from like inception of idea to like it live, So it's crazy. It's like I've been working on this for so long and it's like, oh my got a doubt.

00:04:17
Speaker 4: Here, it is here, it is. Congratulations, that's so exciting.

00:04:21
Speaker 2: Thank you. We got our first few episodes already recorded. I just finished doing the first episode, which is a narrative style episode, kind of giving everybody a taste of what the show will be and why am I doing it and why now. I think a lot of people right now are assuming maybe this podcast is coming out because of Bad Bunnies Rise, but that's not true. We are more than Bad Bunny, as much as we love him, and so it's a little bit of an introduction to me. And then the rest is going to be talk show, chat show, and we have already three episodes recorded. I went to Puerto Rico to record them, which was like really fun and very like exciting.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, oh, congratulations, and also so silly that anyone would be like, oh because bad bunny and you're.

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Speaker 2: Like and you're like, yeah, he's one guy, but you know, the island has existed for centuries, so great god.

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Speaker 4: But but but just one guy?

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Speaker 2: But just one guy?

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Speaker 4: People love to say, is it because of one guy? The answer is never.

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Speaker 2: Yet They're like, he's the most famous guy though, and I'm like no, no, no, I mean.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but no. Well, congratulations, we can't wait to listen.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

00:05:30
Speaker 1: And we wanted to talk about a movie today that that is in conversation with the topic of your podcast, hence West Side Story. So Becca, tell us about your relationship with this film.

00:05:48
Speaker 2: Well, you know what's funny you guys, hopefully you can hear me over my two loud hot dogs. But uh, what I find interesting is that I thought you guys had covered when I had pitched a bunch of Puerto Rican movies. I was like, yeah, but they've already done West Side Story, like obviously shocking.

00:06:07
Speaker 4: I don't, I honestly don't. I feel like it's a movie we've almost covered several times and it just is like never made someone's final pick. I don't know why.

00:06:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, but to say my history, this is a movie that I feel like, if you are Puerto Rican, if you grew up, you know, with very Puerto Rican parents, They're like, yeah, and West Side Story it's, you know, a historical text of our culture. And I'm like, okay, yeah. And I remember my dad because he's a big movie buff. It's probably where I got my love for movies. He also loves old Hollywood shit, and so he made me sit down and watch this among like Bush Cassidy and The Sun Dance Kid and like things like that nature And I remember watching it and being a little bored the first time I watched it as a kid, but then since then, I went and saw it with my family the twenty twenty one you know redo, and I remember having lots of complicate feelings about that version, but upon this rewatch, I have grown a lot of love for both versions of the movie and it's place in Puerto Rican history at large. And I actually, you know what's funny, I asked my parents what their history with the movie was, because all I knew was like, this is a strong movie my Household, but I couldn't remember for the life of me why it mattered to my parents. And my mom actually sent a voice note and I honestly forgot to listen to it before this. But my dad sent an email which was very.

00:07:34
Speaker 4: Long, strong multimedia family.

00:07:37
Speaker 2: You know, my dad is a man of literature. He loves to write, and let me see if I can do a little summary of it for you, because I thought it was like very sweet, because he's a man of few words in person, but in email he loves to write a lot yapper. He's a yapper.

00:07:55
Speaker 4: There's many dads that I've like, really come alive in an email.

00:07:59
Speaker 2: They're just like I can never express to you how much I love you in person, but I will write you a lovely letter.

00:08:05
Speaker 4: Yeah, just kind of nice, which.

00:08:08
Speaker 2: Is beautiful, but as I'm like skimming it, it is long. But essentially, my dad is somebody who he never really identified with his Puerto ricaness. He's not, which is why I actually was shocked he loved the movie so much because he's not a proud Puerto Rican like my mom is. But I guess like when he was young, this is like one of the few movies. His cousin took him to who had moved in with him for the summer, and it was like one of the first pieces of media that he saw Puerto Ricans portrayed in and it was such a successful movie that he really fell in love with it and was like one of the first and only times he felt proud to be Puerto Rican was watching this movie. So he also grew up in La so big movie town obviously, and I think being in La when you don't have a Portrican community, there's not a large community. He didn't identify with the Chicano Comunity too much either, so I think this was just like one of his first moments where he was like, oh my god, there's me. Representation matters.

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Speaker 4: Wow, that's so lovely. Yeah, it's so interesting listening to especially people who were like alive when it came out or even like pre the twenty twenty one movie coming out, because there is like such a specific relate, like it's a very individual relationship that people formed this movie, and it seems like specifically Puerto Rican Americans where where there's like, I mean, there's like a Lin Manuel Miranda connection all I mean, all over this musical he like, oh yeah translated lyrics in two thousand and nine, to have Spanish lyrics on stage all this stuff.

00:09:39
Speaker 2: But you can hear some of the music is also like I know, I don't think he taunted as like the composer, but you can hear like I'm like, oh, I hear in the Heights in some of these songs in the twenty nine one.

00:09:49
Speaker 4: Version, ot yeah, and like the visual influence is like very clear. Twenty twenty one was a very interesting year for movie musicals that starred Puerto Rican characters. It was like, because we still haven't covered In the Heights. I think because we were sort of trying to give some time because it was such a fraught conversation going on around colorism, rightfully so at the time that we still were still waiting to cover it. But I mean in the same year that Steven Spielberg directs West Side Story, which was the conversation all its own and you know, beautiful movie. But why you know all this stuff? And wasn't it was John cho who directed In the Heights.

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Speaker 2: I believe, right, I have so many thought's why I put on my list. I was like that one I have a lot of thoughts on John two yeah, John Chu, Slade, wicked, obvi, Slade, crazy rich Asians.

00:10:39
Speaker 4: But Slade step up two yeah, three yeah, and.

00:10:43
Speaker 2: Justin Bieber's documentary question.

00:10:46
Speaker 4: A generational artist.

00:10:47
Speaker 2: But but this was not I think. I think he was set up for failure in a way, and I was actually shocked. And this is obviously a discussion to come back on for In the Heights later, But I was shocked Lynn didn't directed himself, because later I think that year he directed Tictik Boom as his directorial debut. So I was like, yes, you were already putting your hat in the director ring. Why didn't you just direct it?

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Speaker 4: I was also confused. I wonder, I don't know. I was also sort of confused at that. But he gave an interview around I think it was for a documentary release about Rita Moreno, around the time that the re release came out in twenty twenty one, talking about the first time he saw Westside Story, and it sounds very similar to your dad's anecdote where he was, you know, saying like he saw for the first time on VHS when he was twelve and was like shocked that the theme of being Puerto Rican was explored at all, and yeah it was like, you know, like flawed but exciting, and yes, yeah, it's it's interesting here. And then you hear the total opposite of Puerto Rican viewers who are like, I hated it from moment one because brown face, and you're like, yes, it's.

00:11:57
Speaker 2: Like such a caricature of the Puerto Rican identity for sure. And I think I always felt complicated about that because I watched it and I was like, huh. But now that I am like doing the show and I've done a lot of research for this episode and I now watched both of them back to back, I was like, Okay, I see both sides of this conversation. I see why the generation before us loved and hated it, because there are people of my dad's generation that were like, this is awful. And when the Broadway musical came out, like on Broadway, it was obviously very poorly received by Puerto Ricans, but I do think because it was it was truly white people in brown face, like it was vaudeville. You know, there were no Puerto Rican actors doing any of the roles when it was on Broadway. But then in the movie production. They had at least like a couple latinos. They had to rita moreno, but like you know, it was just like a slight sup from what was on Broadway.

00:12:56
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was. I mean, researching what the original Broadway production is like is pretty horrific. Yeah, and as well as I mean, we'll talk about this later in the episode, but specifically how the song America was like revised and revised and it's kind of still being revised is frustrating and fascinating to learn about. Yeah, have you ever seen it on stage? I've never. I think I haven't seen a high school production of it.

00:13:20
Speaker 2: They I'm from Texas, so they did not care to do this in any of our high school productions. I mean, I wasn't a theater kid, but I had a lot of theater friends, so I would go see all of their shows. But I remember our town being a big one. I don't remember the other few that they did, but it was never West Side, and even at Baylor, where it is a big theater arts program at Baylor, we never did it at Baylor either won or why shocker, So I had never seen it and they only revived it recently when the twenty twenty one came out, but I didn't get a chance to see it here in New York. So no, I haven't seen it, but I would.

00:13:56
Speaker 4: Love to, Kitlyn. What is your history with West Side Story?

00:14:00
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. I saw it for the first time during either during the great Caitlin movie binge of two thousand and five, or I also did a smaller movie binge in like two thousand and three when I was still in high school and I was like deciding that I wanted to be a film major and I have to watch some movies to prepare for that. I think it might have been then. Whatever. Either way, it's like been twenty or more years since I've seen it, and I didn't quite realize this until I rewatched to prep for this episode. But almost every song in this movie is so entrenched in the zeitgeist.

00:14:42
Speaker 3: Yea.

00:14:42
Speaker 1: They were all very, very familiar to me, and I was like, oh, I didn't even realize that that song was from this I feel pretty musical. I didn't remember that at all. That was the one that I was like, wait a minute, that's from What Side Story?

00:14:53
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So it's weird. It's like seeing the Nutcracker and you're like, wait, I know all of these Yeah, I didn't realize.

00:15:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So that was you know, that was kind of a pleasant surprise. But listeners of the podcast might know this, But I'm not the biggest musical head, so I tend not to seek them out, or if I do watch them. It's kind of that one time. Although I did see the twenty twenty one Spielberg adaptation when it came out, and I was like, why is the lighting in this movie so weird? Why am I watching all these people dance all the time?

00:15:32
Speaker 4: Why am I looking at angel El's court the al.

00:15:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, sex criminal ansel El Gordon.

00:15:39
Speaker 4: I I do appreciate that at very least he has sort of been removed from the culture, it seems like, to the point where I no longer know his name. So, you know, good job everyone, good job.

00:15:50
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, he wasn't good enough for people to want to keep him around, so they were like, Okay, you're getting canceled, we can just let you go.

00:15:57
Speaker 4: Yeah.

00:15:58
Speaker 1: Also totally forgot that the guy from Challengers Mike Face.

00:16:02
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Mike Feist.

00:16:03
Speaker 1: Yeah Feist?

00:16:04
Speaker 2: Is is it East? I'm not sure.

00:16:07
Speaker 1: I have no idea how to.

00:16:08
Speaker 2: Know either way, he stole the show.

00:16:10
Speaker 1: He is he is so great casting and I have some notes about the twenty twenty one version, but most of this episode will be focused on the nineteen sixty one adaptation, just because.

00:16:24
Speaker 4: There's so much, Like I feel we should almost do an entirely separate episode about Toy Toy one, but we should talk about like some of the adaptation changes and stuff for sure.

00:16:32
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's pretty much my history. It has catchy songs, and those are the main things that I remembered about it. But as we've been saying, it's a rich text and there's a lot to discuss, So I'm excited to get into it. Jamie, what is your relationship with West Side Story?

00:16:50
Speaker 4: Nothing and a lot, I feel like, definitely. I remember seeing this movie for the first time in middle school with a very impactful music teacher. I had missus Vallani shout out to her. She showed it to us during class, and I think, similar to you, Becca, I was like, this is long. This is very long.

00:17:10
Speaker 2: It's three hours and there's an intermission built into the movie.

00:17:13
Speaker 4: Yeah, and for that reason, I'm sure it took us like four school days to watch. And I was sort of like, sure, right now. I definitely saw a community production of it as a kid that I don't recall, and then I didn't see it for a long time. I actually I will out myself as I have done a lot of research about the spielbrain adaptation. I still haven't seen it. That's okay, But I am a member of Rachel z Eggler Nation. Proud member of Rachel z Eglar Nation. Yes, but yeah, I haven't seen the new one. But I did get a chance last year to see I'm a big read a Marino fan. I got to interview her five years ago and it was like one of the highlights of life. She's so amazing. And last year, my friend works at the Academy Museum in LA and got us tickets to see West Side Story with Rita Moreno introducing it, and it was so wonderful. It was a great I mean, I definitely liked it a lot better seeing it in a huge theater because it was both Rida Moreno and Tony Oh my god, Tony who's also in Twin Peaks. Richard Bamer was there and at the time, yeah, and he's still alive, but he and Rida Moreno had this very sweet dynamic. I guess they've been friends for like our parents' entire lifetimes. Riada Moreno is so funny, and I mean, we'll talk about this as we get into the discussion, but I really appreciate how she I don't know, I feel like she's really able to hold a lot of truths at once when it comes to this movie. She is not shy about talking about the obvious glaring issues with this movie of the aggressive use of brown face. She had a lot of comments on stage this time, I believe, in like over the years, about how the scene with Anita Layt in the movie where she's assaulted by the Jets, how that personally affected her. But the most impactful part of the discussion to me was when apropos of Nothing. In the middle of this talk back, where she was talking about West Side Story in a way that i'd heard her talk before, she randomly brought up that she had fucked Marlon Brando and his dick was huge. Oh, I have a lot.

00:19:27
Speaker 2: I have a lot to add to that discussion on the Marlon Brando of it all because I just read her memoir.

00:19:31
Speaker 4: Oh my god, there is It's like.

00:19:34
Speaker 2: It's like girl at ninety years old, my love, I let it go.

00:19:40
Speaker 4: She is still she's still hung up.

00:19:42
Speaker 2: We get we'll get into that, but like I'm like, I have so much knowledge right now about it. It's crazy.

00:19:48
Speaker 4: Please I want I haven't read her memory yet. But it was so funny because everyone was like, wait, what question prompted this anecdote?

00:19:56
Speaker 2: Like she if she can, she will. She's like, and the love of my life, even though I was married to a man for fifty something years and have my child with them. I love Marlon Brando, and you're like, you're liked Moreno, he did not love you that way, Like.

00:20:12
Speaker 4: Oh, but that's the But isn't that the one you end up hung up on? Too bad for her? I know I was that. I looked up her like her mar I was like, oh and she was married for so long. He did not come up.

00:20:24
Speaker 2: No, she's truly like, that's my daughter's father, and that's it. I might have been married to him, but that's my that's my daughter's father, not my husband.

00:20:32
Speaker 4: Yeah, my husband was a beard for Marlon Brando.

00:20:35
Speaker 1: Basically, it's like in Titanic when old Rose is like my husband, who I only care about? Jack? Dawson.

00:20:44
Speaker 2: No, it literally is like that, except it's more romantic in Titanic because Jack Dawson obviously loved her and Marlon Brando abused read.

00:20:54
Speaker 4: Morne for yeah like a dad man, And I do reck recommend it's a rare experience, but I do recommend the version of watching was Eel White gets so much better if Riedom Morano talks about Marlon Brando's penis immediately before it starts. That was the most recent time I had seen it. And yeah, I mean I am able to appreciate a lot of this movie. I love a musical. It's beautiful. It's likeaful, colorful Riadom Moreno steals the show.

00:21:26
Speaker 2: Steals the show.

00:21:27
Speaker 4: I do you know. I will always feel that Natalie Wood and Richard Bahmer, bless their hearts, are stinking up the place. Well, we'll obviously be talking in depth about the use of brown face throughout the history of this production.

00:21:42
Speaker 2: And I have some notes on her on Natalie Wood's racism. That's from Riadam Morino's book.

00:21:46
Speaker 4: Really okay. Yeah, So, in spite of the fact that the two leads, I will say are very poorly cast for multiple reasons, the supporting cast is wonderful and I appreciate it with many asterisks, and I'm excited to talk about it.

00:22:04
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, indeed. Well let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for the recap. We're back. I wonder how that's going to actually.

00:22:28
Speaker 4: Sound on the recording on the zoom.

00:22:31
Speaker 2: So it's like, yeah, we can hear it in your mic probably, but not in our minds.

00:22:37
Speaker 1: We're like, yes, exactly, uh huh, I did it perfectly, just so you know. Okay, here's the story. We open on a street gang of young men slash. Are they teenagers?

00:22:53
Speaker 4: They're like c W. I think that I like the CW casting here where everyone's like kind of forty.

00:22:59
Speaker 2: Everyone's definitely at least thirty, because Rita Moreno's thirty yea at this time.

00:23:04
Speaker 1: So but they're playing like sixteen, eighteen, maybe early twenties. It's all like very young, so right, Yeah, anyway, this street gang of men are snapping their fingers and dancing their way through New York City. Ever heard of it? These are the jets.

00:23:22
Speaker 4: I love the snaps. The snaps are iconic.

00:23:25
Speaker 1: Yes, they are white men. An unsettling number of them are blonde.

00:23:33
Speaker 2: Which is purposeful, mind you that was a casting choice. Yeah.

00:23:37
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:23:38
Speaker 4: Their leader is Riff, played by Amber Tamblin's dad.

00:23:43
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, wow, I didn't know that she was a Nippo baby.

00:23:47
Speaker 4: It's a it's yeah, I guess if you don't know about nineteen fifties Broadway star Russ Hamblin, it's a not starter.

00:23:56
Speaker 1: And then a few others. We meet our characters named nice, horrible name with the current affiliation. There's a character named Action. There's a character with a name that I don't even want to say because it's a slur for Arab people. Not sure what's happening there anyway? Are those are the jets? They encounter various members of the Sharks, a group of Puerto Rican men, and as we've alluded to several times already, it is a lot of white actors in brown face.

00:24:34
Speaker 2: Can I know which ones are actually Puerto Ricanan not?

00:24:36
Speaker 4: Yes? Yes, please?

00:24:38
Speaker 2: Okay? So Chino who is Jose de Vega. He is not Puerto Rican, but he is Colombian and Filipino. He's one of the few actual men of color in the Sharks. Him Rogers Loco is Puerto Rican and he's from Junko's which is where Rita Moreno's from. Oh and the main Shark though Bernardo he is actually Greek and he played a riff in the West Side Story Broadway production, so they literally just like race traded him and brown faced him and they're like, you could be Bernardo and.

00:25:13
Speaker 4: He won an oscar, and he won an Oscar for it. Which is the amount of times the Oscars have awarded performances of this nature is I mean, in like just openly offensive performances still happens, Still happens. I'm looking at you, Eddie redmain Danish girl still happens to this day. Yeah.

00:25:36
Speaker 1: So the thing about the Jets and the Sharks is that they are rivals. You might even call it a heated rivalry.

00:25:43
Speaker 4: But I do reely well, I mean, this is like what there's in the twenty thousand things that are to talk about in this movie, the like top gun nature to the fraternal like the fraternal nature of the gangs, like there there is some eroticism. This was written by will not shock you or anyone if you don't know that this was a musical written by white gay guys.

00:26:08
Speaker 2: Yes correct at the time closeted and therefore they were, from what I read, exercising some of their own issues through the text.

00:26:19
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, yeah.

00:26:20
Speaker 1: So the point is the Jets and the Sharks are rivals, kind of like the Capulets and the Montagues. What is this a Romeo and Juliette adaptation, except in this case one group is very racist toward the other group, and you can guess which. So they're like on the same playground or some They're in the streets together and they are dance fighting for a while until a couple of cops show up. This is Lieutenant Shrank, and I'm like, Lieutenant sure.

00:26:56
Speaker 4: Crack, there's not the only shark connection reaction to this, because I feel like we have to have brought this up at some point. Rachel Zegler iconically, when she got the part of Maria in the twenty twenty one version, they wanted her to start filming and she's like, well, I have to finish starring as Princess Fiona in my high school's production of musical and then I'll join your little movie, Steven Spielberg. She's so awesome.

00:27:25
Speaker 1: I did not know that. That's amazing. Yeah, wow, shout out Rachel Zegler a very outspoken pro Palestine advocate.

00:27:34
Speaker 2: Yes, which I'm a fan of Rachel Zegler as a person. I will say, did not like her as Maria, and that's a conversation for later. But I'm like, I'm a fan of her, but I just don't think she was quite right for the part. I think people are very wrapped up in her vocals, which are, no question, some of the best vocals out there, right, and they were incredible in the movie. But I don't think she was a good Maria. And we can have that just later.

00:28:00
Speaker 4: And I'm so curious for your thoughts. Yeah, I still haven't. I still haven't seen her as Maria, but she does have perfect politics and is a podcast listener. She's like, yeah on blank fan of you, Rachel Zegler, Yeah, she should come on our show. Yeah, but I'm I'm excited to talk about the twenty twenty one version. Interesting.

00:28:20
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's Lieutenant Shrek.

00:28:23
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's Shrek, and Shrek is a bad man.

00:28:27
Speaker 1: He's a really bad man. Yeah, and we'll talk about the character's relationship to the police in this movie, because I think it's quite interesting.

00:28:36
Speaker 4: I think it's more it's way more nuanced that I recalled Yes, yeah, for sure.

00:28:41
Speaker 1: So so it's Lieutenant Shrank and Officer kup Key. They show up to try to like kind of break up the dance fight, but the various members of the two gangs refuse to rat on each other, and one of them even suggects that it was the cops who injured one of the Jets. So the Jets and the Sharks say a cab.

00:29:07
Speaker 2: They said a cab street rules.

00:29:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the cops were like, stop you guys, stop it, and then they eventually leave.

00:29:15
Speaker 4: Also, in this version of New York, if only it were real, there's two cops.

00:29:20
Speaker 2: There's there's only two cops that are following this specific gang around. They're like, I'm with you.

00:29:26
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're racist too. The other officer, Kraftkey, reminded me of Kronk from Emerson Group. He's just like not a thought in this man's head. Many such cops.

00:29:41
Speaker 2: He's just bully. He's just like, yeah, hey, guys, stuck it off.

00:29:45
Speaker 4: Knock it off.

00:29:47
Speaker 1: Yes. So the cops eventually leave, and the Jets wonder what to do about the Sharks quote unquote encroaching on their turf riff. The leader of the Jets, announces the they should have one huge fight, a big rumble, a fight to end all fights with the Sharks. But first they need to negotiate with the Sharks about the terms of this rumble. So Riff goes to Tony, who used to be a Jet, and Tony is still friends with them, but he's like not really involved and they are gang activities anymore.

00:30:25
Speaker 2: They do not give enough backstory as to like why and like what happened, which twenty twenty one version tries to revise.

00:30:33
Speaker 4: But yeah, correct, I feel like, yeah in sixty one, it's just like he's like I'm kind of over it.

00:30:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, you're like, that's not how gangs work.

00:30:42
Speaker 4: Really, it's my part time job now, guys. Sorry. Yeah.

00:30:47
Speaker 1: Uh So he's out of the group, but Riff wants to rope him back in and if he loves Tony, he's like he's basically like, hey, babe, want to go to the dance with me tonight. I from the and start a War.

00:31:05
Speaker 4: I do really like the Tony's first song. There's like this something that I think this this movie does really well is like very like romanticizes and captures naive optimism and love and I like that first Tony song and I like the dance scene for that reason.

00:31:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Tony reluctantly agrees to join this negotiation. But again with Tony, he's more of a lover than a fighter, and he's talking about how he's been yearning for something and maybe that's something is the love of a woman, and maybe that woman is Maria, who we cut too. She is played by Natalie wood Oops, another white person in brown face.

00:31:53
Speaker 4: Who, as is very common at this time, is not singing her own role. So there's the only justification for her play this role is that she was famous at the time.

00:32:02
Speaker 1: Yeah right, Yeah, So Maria is getting ready for the dance. She is Bernardo's sister who has recently arrived in New York from Puerto Rico. She's hanging out with her friend Anita played by Rita Marino, who is dating Bernardo. Maria is supposed to marry or she's like kind of been linked up with this guy named Chino, one of the Sharks, but she's not thrilled about it, which.

00:32:32
Speaker 2: Some insight on why they probably named him Chino specifically based on who they casted. I don't I mean I don't know if they had this thought with the actual Broadway production, but in a lot of like Latino communities, they will give you a nickname based on like a characteristic of you. And I'm assuming they casted a Filipino and Latino actor because Chino usually means that person is Asian, so they were probably like, he's Chinese and Puerto Ricans, so we call him Gino.

00:33:05
Speaker 4: Interesting, Okay, interesting? Yeah, there were certain nicknames throughout the Jets and Sharks that I was like, I don't know if there is a ground for this or if it is just like vaguely racist free form jazz.

00:33:17
Speaker 2: It's a little bit of both, because it's like Gino could be like some racist shit the white people wrote, because that's why I'm like, I don't know how much historical contacts they have, but it's also not out of character for Latino communities, Like I was called Laka my whole life because I was like the skinny cousin, you know, So yeah, it's partially that. Oh sure.

00:33:37
Speaker 1: So then we cut to the dance. The Jets and the Sharks are both there because her four be damned. When there's a school dance to be had, you gotta dance and this means another dance fight. Although okay, so in this movie there are fight dances and then there are dance fights. Yes, and there are two different things. Yes, this you know when you see it's precisely this is an example of a dance fight.

00:34:04
Speaker 4: It's so good.

00:34:05
Speaker 2: I love like this is one of my favorite scenes. It's so fun. It's so like old Hollywood, but like the best parts of old Hollywood where people really like were like focused on their craft and they were dancers and they were singers and their actors, and it's like the colors and the editing. It's you see readA Morino really shine like as a dancer here, it's like good. Oh, it's so good.

00:34:27
Speaker 4: It's so cool. Like and the Jerome Robins choreography, Yes, so beautiful for those that are locked into Jerome Robin's culture. He directed and was an iconic choreographer. I feel like he's like kind of on par with Bob Fosse for like the most influential choreographers of like the twentieth century. He did on The Town, Peter Pan, The King and I, The Pajama Game, West Side Story, Fiddler on the Roof. He won two oscars.

00:34:53
Speaker 2: He's just like incredible.

00:34:55
Speaker 4: The dance fights and the fight dances are just undeniable.

00:34:59
Speaker 1: Very well choreographed.

00:35:00
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.

00:35:01
Speaker 1: So at the dance, Maria and Tony meet and they go hubba hubba a wooga and they fall immediately in love.

00:35:11
Speaker 4: I love the editing. They're so in love, you're like, and.

00:35:16
Speaker 1: They're about to kiss, but Bernardo butts in and separates them, being like, stay away from my sister. Thus the forbidden Romeo and Juliet esque love story. Then Riff and Bernardo make arrangements to have their rumble negotiation meeting that night at midnight, So everyone leaves the dance. Tony heads home. He's singing about how much he loves Maria. He just met a girl named Maria.

00:35:46
Speaker 2: Well yes, yeah, say loud and there's music playing, say it softly and it's almost like pray.

00:35:56
Speaker 4: I really so good. This musical really captures falling in love. It's so sweet. This reminded me a lot of because Stephen Sondheim wrote the lyrics for these songs. Yes, and it's very similar to another song he writes later in Sweeney Todd Joanna, which is basically the same song but different where he's like, I feel you Joa No, Like, it's just like I just met a woman and now I'm screaming her name in the streets. It's a vibe. I like it. It's like, oh, yeah, I guess this. Sondheim was like, uh, so you meet a lady and it feels a little something like this.

00:36:31
Speaker 1: Well, it's funny that you say that. This movie like captures falling in love, and it's nice because the cynic in me. I was like, Oh, these characters have known each other for two days and they're already so obsessed with each other that they're willing to die for each other.

00:36:44
Speaker 2: That's Shakespeare.

00:36:45
Speaker 4: The kids, It's exciting, like, that's.

00:36:48
Speaker 2: The exact thing, that is what Shakespeare did. It was like, what three days and all of them happens in Yeah.

00:36:55
Speaker 4: I mean, at least Natalie Wood isn't a twelve year old, you know, there's true.

00:37:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I agree watching this version, you are kind of like, oh, I feel like I will give the twenty twenty one credit. I feel like they gave a little bit more for them to like fall in love, at least a little bit.

00:37:11
Speaker 1: More talking I don't know, and then other characters being like you've known him for a day.

00:37:17
Speaker 4: Yeah, like ohous.

00:37:18
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:37:18
Speaker 4: I don't like when movies do that. I feel like that started in like when Frozen did that where it's like you have to like call out this like romantic narrative. I don't know, I'm I'm hopeless romantic mode. But whenever something like that is happening in a movie and someone's like record scratch, Wait a second, you just met, I'm like shot at a movie.

00:37:37
Speaker 1: I'm the one. I'm the one making the record scratch because I'm.

00:37:41
Speaker 4: Just like it's ridiculous and I'm saying, shut the hell up, I'm gonna go have sex, like I think it's exciting.

00:37:48
Speaker 2: It's less like I feel like in this nineteen sixty one version it works for me because it is so shot like an actual play, whereas they do actually in the nineteen or nineteen the twenty between one version, they try to make it a movie, and I do think that's way more different in the two, whereas like I can I'm like I'm in the world in the nineteen sixty one one because You're like this is a play, like it actually looks like I'm watching something on Broadway. But the twenty Tway one. They're trying to like world, build it more and it feels like a feel more like sense. Yeah, so then I'm kind of taken out of it a little more in the twenty tway one version, which is.

00:38:26
Speaker 4: Wild too because in the I didn't know there's a I feel like we cite her on the show pretty frequently. There's a b kind rewind video essay that sort of compares the two versions and like how the productions were very different and all that, and this movie was considered to be very It feels like ridiculous to say if it was considered to be very gritty in comparison to other musicals of the time. Yeah, because it was actually shot outside and like not completely on a sound stage, but it looks so Broadway. I don't know, it looks like a broad Bay set. It's shocking that it is not.

00:39:00
Speaker 2: But also most of it is on a Broadway set from what I write. So I was like, what they shot two scenes outside and you're calling it gritty.

00:39:07
Speaker 4: It's just like the beginning basically, and they're like, never been done before, it's filthy.

00:39:13
Speaker 1: Okay, sure, yeah, Okay, So Tony is in love with Maria and Maria is in love with Tony. Meanwhile, the Sharks talk about the racial prejudice they face, how they are treated horribly by white people. This is the scene where they sing I like to be in America, which okay by me and.

00:39:37
Speaker 4: America, well we'll sidebar on that yes song, which is the whole episode in and of.

00:39:42
Speaker 1: It's unpacked there. Yeah, Tony goes to Maria's apartment, but like the outside balcony part, and they sing at each other again. They're obsessed with each other. They make plans to meet up again the following night, MEANWHI. While the Jets are waiting for the Sharks to show up for this negotiation, they're hanging out at this little store owned by a guy named Doc. There are also a few women there, like the women who pile around with the.

00:40:17
Speaker 2: Jets, the groupies kind of right.

00:40:20
Speaker 1: We've got Graciela Velma and a character named Anybody's who we will talk about, and we see the various men be sexists toward these young women. Then that cop officer Krupke shows up again and hassles the Jets, so they sing a song about him and about how society perceives them as delinquents. Then the Sharks finally show up and they agree to do a fight tomorrow after dark under the Highway, where the best fighter from the Jets and the Sharks will go against each other. It's Bernardo versus Ice, but Bernardo was hoping to fight Tony since he's been noodling with his sister Maria.

00:41:15
Speaker 4: And objectively would be pretty easy to be in the flight.

00:41:19
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he's got a very punishable face.

00:41:24
Speaker 4: He does. He does. You're like, yeah, of course you want to beat this guy.

00:41:28
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:41:29
Speaker 1: Then Lieutenant Shrank or whatever shows up, wanting to know the details of the fight, but once again they all refuse to talk. They do not cooperate with the cops. Then we have the intermission cut to the next day. Maria is with her friends. She sings, I feel pretty, so pretty, and then she finds out from Anita that there's a big rumble that night between the Sharks and the Jets. So when Tony up a little bit later, Maria asks him to go and stop it, so he heads out, but not before they sing what I'm Sorry I think is a very boring song.

00:42:12
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, I actually really like this song. I think it's like really cute and fun and funny that they're like, oh my god, like look at our little wedding.

00:42:20
Speaker 4: I love them. I love how that scene looks.

00:42:22
Speaker 2: Yes, cute. I think it adds levity to this story that like is not what Steven Spoberg wanted to do. And then re like he cuts the song completely. Yeah, and I was kind of sad that he cut this song because it did just like make the movie like very dark in the new remake versus this one kind of has that old Hollywood like comedy too, because like all the Broadway Hollywood movies were kind of like this like sea song, like dark but like comedic tone, and I liked that, but yeah, they get rid of it in the new one, and I was sad.

00:42:54
Speaker 4: I like it. I like, I mean, I like this. I don't like the song, but I do like this sequence, especially because the actors do not look as young as they're supposed to be and it is kind of nice to I don't know, like following like the same with like the romantic thing. It's like they're so desperate to be with each other that they like stage a cutie pile little wedding with I don't know, I think it's I think it's a sweet yeah.

00:43:21
Speaker 2: Like I think this moment in the movie worked for me in general because it kind of a showed their age of like they're young, they're in love, Like we're showing that they're like just naive young people, and it kind of like shows what it means to be like newly in love that like giddy puppy love feeling. And I hate that they got rid of that in the New one because I do think the tone being so serious in the New one where it's like they're like doing this like instead this very declarative like love scene in the New one that I was like, we haven't worked up to that, Like it takes me out of be like Kela was saying, where I'm like, we're a day in you guys have already agreed to flee some together, and now you guys are like having this serious talk where she's like like you need to stop this fight and then he's like I want to marry you and you're like huh, like y'all don't know each other.

00:44:10
Speaker 4: Yere okay.

00:44:11
Speaker 2: In this version, it's like, oh, this is silly. It's supposed to be, Like it's not serious. They are getting to know each other, having fun.

00:44:17
Speaker 4: I also thought like it was I wonder what you even think about this? Like on this watch in particular, it felt like part of what makes that scene like sweet and clearly ominous. Yes, is, and this is obviously severely undercut by the fact that Natalie Wood is white. But they're like acting out this play situation of their families accepting each other because they know that that would never happen in real life. Yes, And like, I don't know, I think it's like it's a weirdly kind of lighthearted way of addressing that in the movie.

00:44:49
Speaker 2: I agree.

00:44:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I liked the part where they're role playing and like the mannekins are there in the various like dresses and tuxedos and all the stuff that happens before the song charming nice the song itself.

00:45:02
Speaker 4: Okay, the song's kind of mid.

00:45:04
Speaker 2: I guess you're right. I don't like the song asself. I just like this scene.

00:45:07
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, scene, good song bad Yeah.

00:45:12
Speaker 1: Okay. So that happens. Then the two groups make their way to the rumble spot and they're about to start fighting. Tony shows up to try to stop it, but he kind of gets roped into the fight again. Bernardo has it out for Tony, so they're scuffling. Things escalate, knives are drawn. There is a fight dance not to be confused with a dance fight, where Bernardo stabs Riff and then Tony retaliates and stabs Bernardo. She know goes to Maria to tell her that her new boyfriend just killed her brother. So she is devastated.

00:45:58
Speaker 2: Okay, but we have to note here that Gino tells Maria because Maria is too focused on like Tony. After he goes, your boyfriend killed your brother, She's like, but it's Tony, okay, and she knows, Like what the fuck right, Belie, because you're like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. This man you've known for forty eight hours murdered your brother. And you're still like, but I'm gonna run.

00:46:21
Speaker 4: Away with that Tony?

00:46:22
Speaker 2: Is he okay?

00:46:23
Speaker 1: Yeah?

00:46:23
Speaker 3: I for me.

00:46:24
Speaker 4: And it's like I know that she's supposed to be very young and naive, but like, Maria's behavior is impossible to rationalize, impossible starting here, I mean, especially the way that she treats Anita, and like the gravity of what she asks from Anita.

00:46:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, is just like I think they handle it better in the new version, but still it's just like in this one, you're like, huh.

00:46:47
Speaker 4: Absurd, Like you get actively frustrated with her and Tony. Like by the end of this movie a movie I enjoy, I'm not rooting for them. I'm just not.

00:46:56
Speaker 2: No, you're like, good riddens, everyone's dead, good ridden?

00:46:59
Speaker 4: How fucking title this? Tony to'd be like, oh, the things happen and she's like, okay, makes sense, Like.

00:47:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, what, no problem.

00:47:06
Speaker 4: It's yeah infuriating.

00:47:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, because Tony shows up to say that he needs her forgiveness, and he intends to go to the cops to turn himself in, and she's like, no, don't do that.

00:47:19
Speaker 4: I love you.

00:47:20
Speaker 1: Let's run away together. So they form a plan to flee. Cut to the Jets who are dealing with the aftermath of Riff's death. They're sad, they're angry. They sing a song about how they have to be cool and keep a level head.

00:47:38
Speaker 4: This is I'm interested to talk about this because the dancing is funny. To be like, it does feel like a very like a dance sequence interpreting white masculine repression question mark something like that. I think I like it, but it's weird. It's very long.

00:47:59
Speaker 2: It's very long. I think it's one of the longest numbers that I felt like kind of was.

00:48:02
Speaker 4: Like like I get it.

00:48:04
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, move it along.

00:48:06
Speaker 4: Yeah.

00:48:06
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:48:07
Speaker 1: Well, because there's also the scene right before this. I think the character's name is.

00:48:12
Speaker 4: Baby John or something like the comic book kid.

00:48:16
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:48:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then another character approaches him. Baby John has been crying, but he like brushes it off.

00:48:23
Speaker 2: Like, no, gotta be tough.

00:48:25
Speaker 1: I don't want the guys to see me like this. Yeah, so he like regains his composure and then they meet up with the rest of the jets. But yeah, I think there's very much a like we have to suppress our emotions and be.

00:48:39
Speaker 4: Cool, right, But also I feel like we don't see the sharks go through a similar process, which I'm I don't know I'm interested to talk about that because I don't know. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I was like, be cool is first of all, I would rather have cut back to see how the sharks are processing Bernardo's death because we don't really get to see that outside Maria and Anita no, which doesn't make any sense. But it also but like in that context, I'm like, I wonder if be cool is like part of why they have to be cool is because they have to preserve this very racially informed relationship they have with the cops, because the cops yes literally say to them, we want to believe you. And so it's like, if they can pull off, you know, appearing credible to the cops, it won't be that hard for them. They just have to like sort of keep it together. And like, I don't know, it just like added an interesting, it's still too long, but I don't know. Yeah.

00:49:35
Speaker 3: No.

00:49:37
Speaker 1: So then that character named Anybody's shows up saying that Chino has a gun and he's planning to kill Tony. So the Jets realize they have to find Tony and keep him safe. Tony, who is still with Maria, he goes off to borrow some money so that they can flee. They arrange for Maria to meet up with him at Doc's store. Anita comes in finds out that Maria is still with Tony even after he killed Bernardo. So Anita is like, you'll never believe it.

00:50:15
Speaker 4: She's upset, like.

00:50:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, She's like, what the fuck he killed my boyfriend. He's a murderer brother, You're a inerader.

00:50:24
Speaker 4: So baffling to me because it's like Maria and Bernardo had a complicated relationship. He was over exerting control over her. But they I wouldn't say they had a bad relationship, Like it was very affectionate.

00:50:35
Speaker 2: And it's like contextually, it's like she just immigrated here from Puerto Rico. So he's being very protective of her because he's like, you are my responsibility now, like I have to make sure you're safe in this new foreign land that we are all trying to navigate. You don't speak very good English.

00:50:52
Speaker 1: You know.

00:50:52
Speaker 2: In theory, obviously Nally Wood is doing it so like whatever, But if we're talking realistically, she had just gotten off the boat from Port ric Go, she wouldn't speak very much English, and she's a child, so it's like, of course, young there is tension, but it's like not any worse tension than like a parent with a child, Like that is normal tension.

00:51:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, her, I don't know, I mean, I it wasn't abusive.

00:51:14
Speaker 2: He wasn't, you know, hitting her, hurting her, harming her, you know, No, he was just.

00:51:19
Speaker 4: Being like I mean again, it's like this, I understand that teenagers are upset when like someone exerts control over them, and fair enough, but it's like not upset to their point that you would not react to their death untimely murder by your guy you're.

00:51:34
Speaker 2: Dating, because it was like when he he murdered him like on purpose, Like it wasn't like, oh my god, there was all these knives and I actually knifed him. It was like he chose his white brethren over his love for you, to be honest, because he wouldn't have chose your boyfriend.

00:51:51
Speaker 4: Why are you choosing him? Yes, Like it doesn't make any sense. He chose the other person. I uh, it's so. I mean I think that that the probably a lot of that is because of like how randomly like this. I feel like this movie is very committed to mapping exactly onto Romeo and Juliet at moments where it's like you probably should have considered the relationships of the characters and their culture and their predicament instead of just being like, well, Romeo kills tibblets, so yeah whatever, Like you're like, well, people are famously bumped by that, so maybe do something. I don't know.

00:52:26
Speaker 1: Yes, So Anita is calling out Maria for being a trader. But Maria is like, but I love Tony and love is beautiful, fine that I love him. Then Lieutenant Shrink shows up to question Maria about Bernardo's death, and so since Maria can't leave right away to meet up with Tony, she sends Anita to Doc's store to tell Tony that I think like Maria will just like come as soon as she can.

00:53:00
Speaker 4: That is like the I mean, Rita. Marina is has such incredible range in this movie, and like that even though the Maria's behavior feels so irrational, I feel like how Anita reacts in that moment when Maria asks her to do something so impossible and so like, you know, insensitive to what Anita is going through, but you can just tell, like you know why Anita's doing it because she doesn't want to lose another person, and it's just like it's heartbreaking. Yeah.

00:53:30
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So Anita shows up at the store, the Jets harass and assault her until Doc comes in and intervenes, and because of what she just experienced, she's like, fuck you guys, you're monsters, and then she tells a.

00:53:51
Speaker 4: Lot so fuck Maria, yeah for putting me in this position, and I also think in a.

00:53:55
Speaker 2: Way she almost is also trying to protect Maria and be like, I'm not gonna let you be a part of this whatever this is. Like, if they were so quick to do this to me, you think they're gonna protect you just because you're with Tony? Like absolutely, Yeah.

00:54:10
Speaker 1: So she tells a lie to try to keep everyone safe, her loved ones safe, and to try to kind of put an end to this whole thing. Unfortunately, it backfires, but she tells the Jets to tell Tony that Chino found out about Tony and Maria, and so Chino killed Maria. Doc relays that information to Tony, who is devastated. So he goes out into the street. He's flailing around, but then Maria she's able to come outside, so she sees him and they're like running toward each other, but before they can embrace, Chino shows up and shoots Tony. Maria is, of course distraught. Tony dies in her arms. The Jets and the Sharks have all gathered around, and Maria calls them out for their needless hate and violence. She threatens to kill them all and herself, but then the cops show up and the movie ends with the Jets and the Sharks seemingly putting aside their differences and helping to carry away Tony's body together.

00:55:24
Speaker 2: Like at the end of the day, Acaby.

00:55:26
Speaker 4: Right, right, that is their single unifying issue.

00:55:31
Speaker 1: So that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss. And we're back back.

00:55:48
Speaker 4: Becca. We know you've done a ton of research. Is there anywhere where you are really wanting to start here?

00:55:54
Speaker 2: I do want to give some like nineteen fifties context that I think this version, specifically the nineteen sixty one version tries to like sprinkle because it's obviously kind of in real time, but I think the two thousand and one or twenty twenty one version rectifies a lot of that like lack of context and kind of just in conversation of the lack of real representation of Puerto Ricans. It's like using Puerto Ricans as this like platform to have this story versus like actually thinking about them in the context of this time. But in the nineteen fifties, you're having the Puerto Rican Great Migration to New York City, where it's a rapid population growth, intense discrimination, and an emergence of the new Eurekan identity, thank you Wikipedia, centered in neighborhoods like East Harlem, South Bronx, and West Side, which is San Juan Hill, which is where this story begins. But San Juan Hill is actually a very particular neighborhood. It was an original slum of Puerto Ricans and black Caribbeans. And then in this time that the movie's happening, which they portray better in the new version, it's being demolished for the Lincoln Center. The Lincoln Center to this day sits on top of black and brown bodies. Like to be as explicit as possible, they killed lots of people to have that because they try to migrate them uptown. That's how you ended up with Puerto Ricans in Harlem, the Bronx, Washington Heights. All of that is because basically the rich people were like, we want this because it's by the park. This has to be for the whites now, and so they like literally bulldoze over this whole slum of Puerto Ricans and try to push them out. And I think in the new version they ad trust that a lot more of like this actual dialogue in the movie about like why are the people migrating and like the opportunities that the realtors promised them that were not true. They got to these housings and the Bronx and Washington hids and they were filled with rats and cockroaches and they were built and they literally like evicted these people saying no, we have housing for you up there, like just pack your stuff today and go and there will be a house for you. And then there wasn't. So it was just like this really dark time to be Puerto Rican. And obviously they don't really highlight that in the movie, and I don't think it gives enough context as to why there's such racial tension between these two communities. And I mean, of course besides the factor they're brown and white, but like there is a lot of like real shit happening like in real time at this time for Puerto Ricans.

00:58:34
Speaker 1: Can I follow that up with context about the conception of the stage musical, because I.

00:58:40
Speaker 4: Was going to say, because it's like I feel like the reason it's not there is because the writers and creators probably didn't even know and didn't have interest. No Puerto Rican culture is kind of randomly selected for this.

00:58:54
Speaker 1: Yes, Yeah, so here's what happened there. So Roame Robbins conceived of this idea for the original Broadway musical that debuted in nineteen fifty seven.

00:59:09
Speaker 4: From an idea from Montgomery Cliff, which is just an interesting piece of queer history. They were like on vacation together. Montgomery Cliff is like, I have a little idea. This like came out of Fire Island.

00:59:22
Speaker 1: But the idea originated in nineteen forty nine, where Jerome Robbins was like, Okay, what if I tell a story about a Catholic family and a Jewish family living on the Lower east Side of Manhattan. So originally the story was called east Side Story, Yes, and it would center on the Catholics being anti Semitic to the Jewish characters. And based on my research, it seems like the Maria character would have originally been a Jewish girl who had survived the Holocaust and emigrated from Israel.

01:00:00
Speaker 4: And you're like, what do you mean? Yeah, literally he was less.

01:00:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, So you know, there's that. So Arthur Lorentz gets brought onto the project to write the book for this musical, and he finishes a draft and then everyone who was involved realized that this play had already been written basically, and that these same themes were explored in a play called Abby's Irish Rose.

01:00:31
Speaker 2: They're like, oh, man, we already did it.

01:00:33
Speaker 1: They're like, oh shucks. So Jerome Robbins drops out of the project. He Arthur Lwentz and Leonard Bernstein, who had also been brought on. They all go their separate ways for years. The project was shelved for like five years. Cut to nineteen fifty five. They come back together. They decide to work on the project again. Lorentz and Bernstein meet up in Hollywood in Beverly Hills. Wow, and they're like, what about all these juvenile street gangs and turf wars that we've been hearing about in the news, right.

01:01:08
Speaker 4: Which is like a very popular thematic. I think that that's like a part of the reason that Natalie Wood ends up in this part, because she appeared in a lot of these sort of juvenile, delinquent exploratory stories, which of course is like couched in a lot of bullshit. Yeah, but it was like such a popular theme in the fifties.

01:01:27
Speaker 2: It was such a popular theme. But also I think specifically as Kaelin was knowing this meeting was happening, in Hollywood at this time. Specifically, there were a lot of Chicano turf wars happening in La so they were like, well, what if we flip it, because they still wanted it to be in New York. So you're like, what if we there's those new Puerto Ricans coming in to New York, right, like what do we do that? And so I think that like literally was it like they were just like, well, we can't have we don't have Mexicans in New York, So what do we what do we do about that? So let's just we know those new Reakens are coming to get them in the mix.

01:02:01
Speaker 1: That is literally what happened.

01:02:02
Speaker 4: And that seems like the beginning and end of the.

01:02:05
Speaker 5: Conation of because the rest is just like stereotypes and they weren't like not wrong, like that San Juan Hill stuff was happening.

01:02:12
Speaker 2: There was a lot of like turf happening, I guess in a degree, but really it was just like people who were like already were marginalized and forced to come to America and then being displaced in their one home that they've known that they've been able to build since the thirties when the migration kind of started post World War One. There's a really great exhibit. The reason I know all this is because in New York at Centro Pire Hunter College, it's a really great Portrigan Studies program. It's probably like nationally known as like one of the biggest Portrigan Studies programs. They have an exhibit called San Juan Hill and they go over all these different artifacts and they do these different interviews with families whose families immigrated from San Juan Hill and it's just like really incredible like piece of like preserving archival history of Puerto Ricans in New York that like the governments try to wipe away. And I think like they've done a little bit of like well we put up a memorial of San Juan Hill in the Lincoln Center and you're like, okay, but it's still or Juilliard is and it's still the Lincoln Center, Like like where's the money for those family?

01:03:18
Speaker 1: About all the people you displaced?

01:03:21
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's like how frequently, I mean, I feel like every major city has there. I mean I feel like Dodger Stadium and has a very very similar thing, and we are seeing it happen here right now to historically black communities and to unhouse people for over the Olympics. Like it's just it's so I was glad to hear. And again I haven't seen the movie that, you know. I maybe I'm wrong, but that like Robert Moses is even kind of like name checked in the twenty twenty one version as like this is the person doing this. Yeah, but I don't know. Yeah, I not surprising, but just like it's so egregious how like especially I mean, I feel like the America is a perfect case study for this of like presenting some valid issues but in a completely like contextless void.

01:04:09
Speaker 2: Yes, if we want to talk about that, let's get into it, because I do have a lot of conflicting feelings about that song because I think in this lens, I'm like, you know what, that song is not invalid, because I do think a lot of Puerto Ricans, especially at that time, who were trying to like make an honest living and like make a life for themselves in the United States, felt that way. And I think that's like a very common immigrant story of like our you know, parents and our grandparents who had to assimilate by any means necessary to survive, and so they are like we're in America. We're Americans.

01:04:43
Speaker 1: Now.

01:04:44
Speaker 2: We have to adapt, we have to conform so that we can be successful and live the American dream. But a bunch of white people wrote it, and they did not care for the cultural context of those Puerto Ricans singing it, what it meant to them, what it was about. So it's like it's like almost like a a bad clock is right twice a day or whatever, you know, a broken clock is right twice a day. It was kind of like that, where it's like they weren't wrong, but the way they came from was not nice, versus like the reality of the situation is true.

01:05:15
Speaker 4: It was interesting tracing how this song has been modified over time because it's and this isn't a full his My notes are disorganized, so I apologize, but for I mean Rita Moreno has mentioned that like she was a reason that part of the lyrics were adjusted for the nineteen sixty one version originally. I also think that there's like a gender dynamic change in the way this song is delivered. America is originally only song with women. It's only Puerto Rican women singing to each other, and it's a character named Rosalia who exists in the movie, but far less so. Who is you know, expressing like I really miss Puerto Rico so beautiful, like feeling homesick, and then Anita is aggressively like, no, like it sucks. There's a ugly island, tropic diseases like this very very internalized hatred of Puerto Rico. It's changed for the movie. Some of the language is softened and the gender dynamic is changed so that it's Bernardo and Anita singing to each other about this, and Anita's character is I've seen it argued, is presented as a little more flippant and not like she is saying necessarily this is the truth, which I guess is how it was presented on Broadway. And then it's changed again for twenty twenty one, where Ariana Debo's does not disparage Puerto Rico in America, but there is still kind of this like confusing amount of context. And then also in the movie, I'm curious for what you think about this, because Bernardo is like making some excellent points, yes, throughout the song, which.

01:06:58
Speaker 2: Is why I don't hate the song, because I'm like, I don't think it's inherently like I think I did not have the context of the actual Broadway lyrics, and that makes more sense why people hated the broad because I'm like everything I read was like everyone hated the Broadway version than they love the movie, and I didn't notice how much had changed. I knew Rito was a big part of any changes that were made to the movie experience versus the Broadway musical. But I think it is a real conversation that those who are immigrating have of like this, like we love our homeland, but those who are I think it's very common. I have this conversation with my dad and my grandmother, like in the podcast, of like the way that they will rewrite history to make themselves not feel the pain. And I think it's a part of it is the assimilation, where it's like if we don't love this place, if we don't make ourselves love this place, then we'll be reminded of how painful it is to be here. And I think that is like the push and pull between Anita and Bernardo, where he I think it's just like this is temporary, I'm here to make money, I'm gonna go back home anything. Anita sees the realities that like there is no home. We're not going back. We don't have the resources, We're never gonna have the money to go back, Like, we have to make a life here, so get used to it, almost And I don't think this is a wrong narrative that was had in the fifties. I think it's very real.

01:08:24
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, I.

01:08:25
Speaker 1: Wish that specific sentiment that you just detailed was more explicit in the movie, because the way the nineteen sixty one movie handles this dynamic of like the conflicting attitudes between it seems like it's all of the women being like, I love America, it's awesome. And the reasons that they cite, like the lyrics are things like skyscrapers bloom in America, cadillacs zoom in America, industry booms in America. They're talking about how they can buy stuff on credit, how they can have all these pretty dresses. All this stuff makes them seem like they're obsessed with like American capitalism and consumerism in a way that makes them seem kind of shallow. And then the men come in with points like we get paid half the amount as white people do for the same labor. We are charged twice the amount to buy things than white people. The only jobs that we are able to ever get are things like waiting tables and shining shoes. We are treated like outsiders and foreigners, even though Puerto Rico is part of the US, like but we are treated as though we are not Americans. So there's like what feels like a very like stereotypical gender dynamic almost happening where it's like, well, the girls love America because they can buy pretty dresses here.

01:09:45
Speaker 2: They can shop because when to be shopping, they get job, they can drive, they can do all this stuff, and it's so hard because it's like I as someone who's had a lived Portagon experience with Portagon grandparents and parents, and like my Aula is from Spanish Harlem like born and raised in New York during this time, Like my great grandmother and Rito Moreno's moms both immigrated to the United States at the same time, which was before the Big Boom. But they immigrated for probably similar reasons, which was like stuff back home, like really gendered abusive, like parental or familial misogynist stuff back home. And I do think there is like this idea as a woman in Puerto Rico coming to the United States that you have freedom in a way that you don't have in a very traditional machismo society, especially back then. So but it's like I have that context. I know the writers don't have that context. So it's like I am putting a lot on this song where I'm like, I see the benefits, I see how this is relatable. But then it's like I get angry knowing like, well, they're actually not doing it in that same way. They're not giving it as much heart and depth of care and reasoning for those reasons. They just luckily kind of fell into it.

01:10:58
Speaker 4: It like improves slightly over time. Yeah, there is. On the West Side Story official website, they have the fifty seven sixty one lyrics side by side, and the fifty seven one is just full on American propaganda and it's white people in brown face being like America's amazing, Puerto Rican women love America and have no notes, no, and so the sixty one one is an improvement. But I agree with both you that like there is I think and this was something Okay, I want to quote a piece I read that was written for the LATINX Project by Aurora Flores Hostos back in twenty twenty one when the Spielberg version came out, where she's taking a look at the entire movie and how it like existed in response to its predecessors, but specifically brings up these lyrics and says something similar bucka of like in the sixty one movie, there are things that were gotten right, probably almost by mistake. Yeah, but that she didn't love the changes that were made to the song. In twenty twenty one, she writes, quote, west Side Story was written in a controversial time that resulted in a convoluted story about misplaced culture, identity and survival in a hostile world. But it was real that those early America lyrics were racist, is true, But shouldn't we hear how America really felt about us at that time? That nascent purity of thought is what is sealed in the stereotypes, and trying to undo it, its archetypical credibility is altered, which I think is interesting. And I mean of all three because I did listen to the Ariana Debo's Steven Spielberg version of America. And even though that is a version that is not openly hostile to Puerto Rico, which is important, I still feel like no version of this song, at least that I've heard, addresses that the problem is the title of the song. Yeah, like there is no acknowledgment of like, you know, even though Bernardo and the men in the sixty one version are making a lot of valid points as to what their predicament is and how they're being forced into these awfuls, that it's not really explicitly stated that that is the fault of what America was doing in Puerto Rico at that time. Like there's just like this history.

01:13:10
Speaker 2: Void absolutely, like they were forced to leave. Like I think there's this idea in American history and the way that it's taught about the Puerto Rican Great Migration, like it was like this win for Puerto Rico. It's like literally America came in through the Jones Act, like wreak tavoc to this industrial revolution in Puerto Rico basically to make Puerto Rico a tax even strip it of all its resources. And then when the industrial boom fell and there were no longer job like all the jobs that Puerto Ricans had being forced to do in this industrial revolution and then the industrial revolution fell, they were like, well, there's no jobs in Puerto Rico. All the factories took all our jobs, and now the factories are closed, so what do we do? We have to And then in that like America's like we feel bad. They kind of like promoted this like exile of Puerto Ricans because the population had double. They were like, well, we'll just make room for you in America. I guess like we have to now. And there was also a lot of and Portocan historians don't get at me, this is like a lot of jumbled history that.

01:14:10
Speaker 1: I have in my brain.

01:14:11
Speaker 2: But from what I understand, also there was like a little bit of a globalization of port Rico for the first time because flights were finally coming to and from Puerto Rico around this time, which also added to the boom. It was no longer by boat, but you could take PanAm flights to Puerto Rico. And so because of America, Puerto Ricans can't live in Puerto Rico, right, Like that is the reality, like America destroyed Puerto Rico and then expected Puerto Rico to just like fix itself.

01:14:41
Speaker 4: I don't know, like it is in no way a one to one comparison for many reasons, but I was reminded as we were like looking at particularly how this movie ends, where it's like both sides of this conflict have to admit that things have gone too far because a white man has done yes, it wasn't enough when Bernard and no, the reaction, the void of reaction to Bernardo's death is shocking except for Anita, but it reminded me a lot of how the conflict between the Indigenous community and the Europeans is presented in Pocahontas, where it's like they're presented as equally violent and just man is inherently violent and there is no context as to why, even though in West Side Story you do get more certainly than you get in Pocahontas, which is a horrible yardstick, like not saying much, I feel like the I don't know, maybe there is stuff I missed, but like the closest you get for like clear headed context is I think it's in that that first, like they're making terms for the for their brawl or whatever they call it.

01:15:51
Speaker 2: No, but I think you're so right, because like if I think about the context of the Puerto Ricans throughout the whole movie, and I do think the twenty twenty one version does a lot to try to rectify some of this with like its dialogue and you know the inclusion of Spanish language in the change version.

01:16:06
Speaker 1: But that's not subtitled either, and it's yeah.

01:16:09
Speaker 2: It's not subtitled. But in the nineteen sixty one A obviously none of them are Spanish because none of them can. But b it's like we get that Greek, yeah, because they're Greek, but we get that whole song contextualizing why these white boys are bad boys, right, like why the Jets are bad. They got bad mothers, they got bad fathers, whatever. You're getting a whole context on why these white boys are bad white boys. But then you never get any context of why the Puerto Ricans are strifed. Why and the reality the closest you get is the America song. And even then it's like played is almost like, oh my god, the men are overreacting. They have such a beautiful life here in the United States. But in reality, it's like these men by these white boys are being pushed out of their neighborhood. They also are poor. They also and they also I think in this version versus the twenty one one version, they make it a point that like, the Porto Ricans have jobs and the white boys in the Jets in the twenty twenty one don't have jobs. So they're like, the Puerto Ricans are better in that one way.

01:17:10
Speaker 4: Let's tie it to capitalism. That's important, yes, yes, yes, but.

01:17:13
Speaker 2: In this sixty one version, the Portterians never have jobs, it seems like, and that's purposeful. I think it's like to be like they're lazy. They're fighting.

01:17:20
Speaker 4: The women do. It's just women do, but the men don't. Yeah, it's confused. I mean, they're they're they're the one line that stood out to me on this and it's so small. And then one thousand year long movie is when the Jets and the Sharks are agreeing on the terms of the brawl or whatever, and the Jets are trying to explain why they're so upset, and Bernardo says like they're they're like, well, why did you yell at our friend today? He's like, well, why did you start picking on me and everyone I know the second we got there and then you start shouting slurs and so it's like it is in there, but it's so fleeting yea and spoken in actor by actors in brown face that you're just like, well, it didn't happen. There was one quick I mean, there was so much written about the legacy of this movie, and will include a bunch of please drop your links in, yes, because there's so much that I know, we can't possibly touch on all of it. But there was a really interesting essay I read from twenty seventeen by a writer named Urasapi about how Westside Story I think Becca, as you were alluding to earlier in the episode, sort of became a lot of non Puerto Rican people's first introduction to Puerto Rican culture in a way that is still echoed in culture today, even though it was written entirely by white people that weren't even able that, like, you know, whatever Robert Ager's style wouldn't even go to the library to figure out like what was at least Robert Agres went to the library once in his Defender.

01:18:51
Speaker 1: Well, West Side Story was the first large scale Hollywood movie to even acknowledge the presence of Puerto Rican people in the mainland of the US.

01:19:02
Speaker 4: Yes, So in this essay, I think what Eurosapi is arguing here is is that there's like an undeniable cultural impact, but also that its existence and how it is like talked about is like the first mainstream acknowledgment of Puerto Ricans in like White America. Is that it served to erase a lot of existing Puerto Rican art that was being made in New York at this time. So she wrote specifically about a play that debuted and was very successful in the US in nineteen fifty three, So a pre West Side Story by a Puerto Rican playwright named Renee Marcus that was called La Caretta the ox Cart and was prior to West Side Story sort of positioned to be the most successful Puerto Rican workstage in America at the time. But then West Side Story came out and it kind of faded into the background. It didn't receive a major adaptation, and then West Side Story became White America's main association with Puerto Rican culture. And yeah, I was able. I think the only have we discussed this already. The only Puerto Rican cast member in the original Broadway production was also Anita.

01:20:14
Speaker 2: Was Cheeta Rivera. We have not discussed this, but I do have notes on this because Okay, Rita Moreno, in her memoir is a little shady bitch and I love it. She's very much like I think she's a product of her time in this way where it's like women were forced to compete against each other at every fascinating so I feel like every old Hollywood woman she mentioned she kind of has to do like a little dig to be like a little jab, but I'm better.

01:20:39
Speaker 4: And also sometimes it's just like whoever lives the longest gets the final word exactly.

01:20:44
Speaker 2: And that two and so she did give a little jab at Rivera because Cheetah is half Puerto Rican half white. I can't remember her mix of white immigrant, but is half white. And she was the original Yes and the Broadway and apparently she was up for doing it. But then in the movie Yeah, for the movie, Rita Moreno then studied her ass off and like went to all these different productions and like did dance classes for like two months, and also had Marlon Brando call and was like, can you get Rida Morino in this movie because they were also talking to Marlon Brando for Tony And it didn't end up helping at all, like the Marlon Brando, but basically she ended up becoming the shoe in for Anita and she was just like, ha ha ha, I beat Cheita Rivera off of it. And she was like, and Cheida must have been so upset because her husband was in the movie, because her husband is the other main jet, not Riff, but the other one that to me looks like Joey from Friends.

01:21:46
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, yes, I know exactly who you're talking about. That's action.

01:21:50
Speaker 2: Yes, So that was like Cheeta Rivera's actual husband in real life. And so she was like, she was like, yeah, it must have sucked that she wasn't rip anyway.

01:22:00
Speaker 4: Yeah, but wow, I love a memoir, but.

01:22:03
Speaker 2: That's my my Cheeta Rivera note. But yeah, I mean that is beautiful that like, that is the it seems to be that is the one role that the Puerto Rican gets to play because like obviously Arinabo's is Porto Rican Dominican, which brings us back to like the Maria discussion. You know, I was a little disappointed when I saw Rachel Zegler got the Maria. I understand why she did, because she was the right age, obviously, the right vocal range, incredible talent, but she's not Puerto Rican, and I'm like, when will we get to have a Puerto Rican Maria? You know, she's half white, half Colombian. Yeah, and I'm like, and she's still half white. And that's not to say Rachel hasn't been a great advocate for colorism in media and all that stuff, but I'm like, it is just like this Hollywood thing where it's like, when it comes to Latinos and Puerto Ricans in general, we never get to be the lead, even if you go like in The Heights same year. Yeah, that was the huge controversy, Yeah, because they didn't hire Puerto Ricans for the main role. And it's like, Lynn, we'll get there later. But you know, I just was a little disappointed in the Rachel casting for Maria for the twenty May one and I don't think she like played a good job at it, because I do think you're so much more intrigued by all the supporting characters. There's so much more enticing. There's so much more interesting than Maria and Tony. And that might just be a fault of the musical in and of itself and not the actors. But in this nineteen sixty one version, Natalie wood is because as you mentioned Jamie earlier, she's a hot lady. At the time, they're like of course she seems like shee and there was like a lot of other actresses considered that were white. All of them were white. Apparently Rito was like roughly considered. But she I think was too scared to actually be in a leading role at the time, because she hadn't been in a movie in a while when she got this role, So she was like very intimidated by the idea of applying for a lead in a movie. So that's ultimately why I don't think she did it. That's what she says in her memoir. But I want to pull this quote from him memoir about Natalie Wood, specifically in her role as Maria. She says, and of course it was uncomfortable for the Hispanics to see Natalie would play Maria, especially because we had heard that Natalie hadn't wanted the part, but had been so prevailed upon to take it that she couldn't refuse. Natalie seemed uncomfortable in her role as Maria when she was around us, a rowdy, ferocious group of dancers. This may explain her non engaging demeanor with US Gypsies, which en quote from Marina throughout the shoot. It might have been helpful had we been able to bombit Natalie, but she kept her distance. So I find that very telling. I think that was like the nicest way Rita could put that she was racist on set. But yeah, I think that was read in the way that her sheep performed Maria. You could tell she did not have any care for this character. I think that's why they're so annoying together Tony and Maria. You're not like sold on their love story. Yeah, And I just think it was like, this was like the most obvious fix they could have done for the twenty twenty one version, and they didn't.

01:25:08
Speaker 4: I mean, I think the other thing and this also applies to the conversation around in the Heights where it's like, why are we not hiring Puerto Rican directors like John Choos Steven Spielberg. Their talent is not remotely in question exactly, but it feels very, very pointed, and it felt I don't know, I am still curious to see the Spielberg adaptation, because Spielberg movies are great, but this was not his job to take be a producer, contribute like and I think that we see this a lot in beginning of the twenty tens into now I feel like it stuck out to me, particularly in how the conversation around Moano has had back in twenty sixteen was like, sure, the directors are white men, but we've hired consultants.

01:25:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have a lot of consultants.

01:25:55
Speaker 4: We actually went to Puerto Rico one time and we learned so much on in our four days in Puerto Rico that like we're kind.

01:26:04
Speaker 2: Of good and we hired Linn to do the soundtrack.

01:26:06
Speaker 3: Was that it not enough?

01:26:07
Speaker 4: It's I mean truly, I mean that's it's the I mean Lima and Weil Miranda's fingerprints over the last decade of culture should be studied, because he does come up in every single reference point here. But it's frustrating and I mean like the fact that they're that I don't know, and I think we used to talk about this differently on this very show, but I feel like at this point it is like I feel like consultants are not enough. It is better than what we're doing in nineteen sixty one, certainly, where it is all YadA YadA, and even and even the one Puerto Rican actor in the movie is having their skin darkened, which is absurd. Yes, but like you know, in the twenty tens and twenty twenties, it's also like it's not sufficient to say I mean it's basically to be you know, with due respect to the consultants whose labor a demonstrable effect on the work, but these are the people who should be directing it, like you know it it shouldn't. I don't know. It's like remove the elephant in the room, which is the need for a white director or a white celebrity or a celebrity director in general.

01:27:15
Speaker 2: It's almost this way of how do I put this kindly, like when we think about like times up, me too, all these things, right, whereas like we're gonna like like like that white pussy half feminism right where it's like no, no, no, like we're changing things, but it's like only for a certain demographic. And I do feel like this is a prime example where it's like we're hiring consultants, we're putting people of color in the roles, we're doing all these things, but it's like you're still not letting people of color in the room. You're still not letting them actually make the work. And it's because a lot of these higher ups do not want to dethrone themselves because they know the reality is if they start letting us in the room, then they don't get to make the work anymore, and they don't want that. So they are trying to circumvent in all these ways that they can still keep their little hands on power, you know, instead of just doing the right thing, which is like maybe the project's not for you, you know.

01:28:07
Speaker 4: And that's okay, like you can's like Steven spielt still give money to the project, like that is a great way to support exactly. I don't know. I'm I'm sure that it is like wonderful, because Spielberg movies are wonderful, but it did not have to be a Spielberg movie. And I feel like the press tour around it felt indicative of like, yes, no, I totally get it. I am famously white, but but but I did this.

01:28:31
Speaker 2: I did this. I did I'm also to Steven Spielberg, so like I did all this stuff because I'm Steven Spielberg and you're like, okay, yes, And and I think his whole thing was like, well, I because I'm Steven Spielberg could get this giant budget to do this movie. And it's like that's true, but then you could also, just like you said, Jimmie, produce it and secure the budget for them and not be the director and actually give that Puerto Rican person a chance to do this. But I think that was also indicative in the choice for doing Rachel, because like, her accent is so bad. I didn't really I didn't remember how bad her accent was until watching it again, and it just like was very similar to the Maria of nineteen sixty one Natalie would where it's just like Rachel clearly speaks Spanish. I think her mom is the Colombian of the two, which you know, I think maternal figures tend to be the ones like leading language for the children and stuff. So like you could tell her Spanish was authentic, and she did great at speaking in Spanish, but I think she did not have a Puerto Rican accent. She sounded like a person trying to have an accent, like trying to sound like a native speaker of another language, and it felt very phony to me, whereas like when you heard Ariana Debo speak, I'm like, no, she sounds Puerto Rican, Like whether she Spanish is her first language or not, you can tell she has Portocan people in her family and in her home, and she studied how to speak in that native like Spanish first Puerto Rican accent, and that was the difference that made a huge difference to me. And same thing with Maria. It's like, yes, I know an Rita Moreno had a lot of complaints about being forced to like over accent herself, but you could still tell it was Puerto Rican and she had to teach Natalie Wood how to have that accent, which sucks. It's like it's like, oh, wow, you make the one Puerto Rican girl teach the person who hates her right how to do her job.

01:30:17
Speaker 4: It's like cool, Christ, It's I mean, I think there's a conversation sort of like this going on right now. But how there is a clear pattern, and I guess I won't overpathologize it from there because I haven't I don't have my thoughts organized about it. But how roles that are cast authentically tend to only be in supporting roles. And then there's always a degree to this day of you know, even though we are not seeing brown face in movies now, we're seeing colorism, and I feel like that sort of speaks to part of what you're talking about with the Rachel zeglercastik and the fact that, I mean, even in like this year's Oscar nominee lineup, you really only see people of color that are strong contenders in supporting supporting categories, which has been true for a very very long time. And it is like I hadn't even connected this until we started recording. But like the part of Anita is like, I mean that won both Rita Marino and Ariana Deboe's their oscars, But why are they not considered credible to be the lead And it's like.

01:31:20
Speaker 2: Why they're not consider credible? And then the fact that they still both like after did not get the work credit that like a person who would win the leading actor role absolutely would like if Timothy wins, and even if he doesn't win, he's gonna get booked for a gazillion more projects coming out for life. He's set for life. He's been set for life. But it's like, and I know, Ariana Deboe's is kind of an annoying figure from what I understand in the media a little bit. She's a little corny. I like, she's just a theater kid.

01:31:53
Speaker 4: Ajelavasa did the thing.

01:31:55
Speaker 2: Yes, he's a theater kid and we have to let you know, let her be. But you know she hasn't had a serious role since then. No, And it's exactly what happened to Riada Marino, like for years she didn't work after winning.

01:32:08
Speaker 4: That the years there's a similar pattern with awards categories where I feel like it's a more general marginalization. But like you will rarely if ever see a woman or a person of call her win and director they'll win, and screenplay and likes, there's like all of these like little negotiations that it just feels like the industry like needling at marginalized people. And yeah, Westside Story is a frustrating case study for that, because you're totally right. Like Rida Marinos spoken extensively about how she struggled to find.

01:32:40
Speaker 2: Parts because then they just wanted to typecast her in this specific type of role, like a bad girl Latina, like a gang affiliated Latina girl. And she's just like I chose this role, which is heartbreating, because she chose this role from what I read in her memoir and just like all the research I did after watching the movies she TOSU because it was very authentic to her. She was like, I chose this role because it was a Puerto Rican woman speaking her mind, you know, fighting back against patriarchy with her partner, you know, standing up for herself.

01:33:08
Speaker 3: You know.

01:33:08
Speaker 2: I related to her a lot. I did not want to be typecast as this gang girl. And then that's what happened. And it's like, and the reason she won the Oscar for the performance is because she saw the authenticity in what she could bring to the role and brought her whole self to that role. That doesn't mean she wanted to be a gang woman because it wasn't about being in a gang. It was about being Puerto Rican. But the white people saw it as her being in a gang. And you're like, wow, you guys, like are raises no matter what, Like you loved a role because she was Puerto Rican, not because she was good at being in a gang. But you guys refuse to see the nuance in that.

01:33:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then Jamie, you alluded to this already, but that rita Moreno, her skin was darkened along with the white actors who were.

01:33:52
Speaker 4: In spite of her vocal protest against that. Like it wasn't like she was vocal about it at the time, and they and they related it anyway, how are they gonna know?

01:34:01
Speaker 2: And it's like, well, I guess fair in the sense that you guys didn't hire a single Puerto Rican.

01:34:05
Speaker 4: Right the call is coming from inside the house and the answer is not brown face.

01:34:11
Speaker 1: Well that's the thing, like the production clearly sees Puerto Rican people as exactly one type and they look exactly one way, ignoring the racial diversity within the Puerto Rican community. Because Moreno is pretty light skinned. They were like, well, you don't look Puerto Rican enough, and so they put brown makeup on her and put her in brown face essentially.

01:34:36
Speaker 2: Which, like Ritom Marino has stated, I don't have the exact quote, but basically along the lines of like, Puerto Ricans come in all shape, sizes and colors, like it is, and that's what she told them. She was like, look, Puerto Ricans are all types. So like it's okay if you know the cast of Puerto Ricans looks different, but like you're saying, kiln, they were like, well, we can't conceptualize and other if there's not a clear other ring, which is that y'all are brown and they're white.

01:35:05
Speaker 4: Right, They decided that like there is a Puerto Rican color to be yeah, which is just I don't know. I don't know how she survived the experience. I'm glad that she still feels at least comfortable and proud enough of the work that she's you know, making appearances. But it's interesting tracking her relationship to the material from sixty one to twenty one as well. This sort of transitions into a different part of the discussion, but around the assault and attempted rape of Anita's character, where Rita Marino spoke extensively. It has spoken extensively over the years about how triggering that shooting that scene was for her because of triggering memories of her own assault by a Hollywood agent. I don't think that there's more specific information about that, but being assaulted by an agent when she was a teenager and that shooting that scene in the early sixties was deeply traumatic. This scene has been, you know, a topic of discussion understandably for the entire history of this production. As recently as twenty twenty, there was I don't know if it was a Broadway or off Broadway staging of it, but that it was being staged very violently to the point where it was upsetting to audiences and they had to dial it back in twenty twenty, which is pretty absurd. And then in twenty twenty one that Raadom Moreno plays the character of Doc's his wife, who, again I haven't seen it, but I know that she her character intervenes in the way that Doc intervenes in the original film. Radam Morillo intervenes in what I mean, and you can both speak to it better, but as a more like an even more aggressive version of that scene. I was, yeah, yeah, what did you think of that?

01:37:04
Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought this up, because I actually have very frustrating thoughts about this, like about the way it was portrayed in the twenty twenty one I'm like, Okay, Rita, this role was very, very, very hard for you. It's something you have noted in multiple interviews in your memoir about how violent this role was, how triggering it was for you. How come you didn't get it cut from the twenty twenty one version outstanding to me, I feel like it was more violent in the twenty twenty one version. It was very hard to watch. I had a really hard time with it. I think if she was going to rewrite history in the way that she did for the twenty one version, which she like comes too late. They've already roughed her up, and she basically just like, what are you guys doing? And then Anita goes, you're a trader, you know, and she does her big moment of being like, you're actually the trader you you know, look at you like supporting these men, and then she's like delivers a line about how like Maria was, you know, murdered when she wasn't. I'm like, I feel like, if we were to perfectly repurpose the scene, ye, Rita could have come in sooner before the men got violent, and they could have still had the same scene and no one would have had to be like assault abused and assaulted or whatever, and it was still so violent. I'm like, if Rita was so vocal about how violent the scene was, I'm like, why was it more violent for Ariana in this? And I'm like, she has noted an interview after interview how long it took them to shoot that scene in nineteen sixty one. I can only pray and hope that, like in the twenty twenty one version, it did not take us long, because if it did, I'm sure that.

01:38:42
Speaker 4: Was really hard and that there were like coordinators or which I'm sure there weren't in the sixties.

01:38:46
Speaker 2: Exactly, and it's I don't know. I was a little disappointed rewatching it, being like, yeah, considering Rita was so upset about this scene, I'm surprised didn't do more like chain the scene while keeping it contextually like works within the film. I don't think it would have been that hard to.

01:39:07
Speaker 4: I mean, I was confused to read that as well, because I think that, like whatever, in the context of the story we are, like Anita has to realize once and for all that like this is not a safe environment for Maria, like we talked about to the point where like this white gang does not have a second thought, yeah, about assaulting a Puerto Rican woman and does not have a second thought of treating her like she doesn't matter, and that Maria will likely be treated the same. But there are other ways to demonstrate that point, and like you're saying, you can demonstrate intent without showing a graphic assault.

01:39:47
Speaker 2: Yeah.

01:39:47
Speaker 1: Yeah. The response from the character that Rita Marino plays in the twenty twenty one version, her name is Valentina. Yes, she's Doc's his wife. If you never see Doc on screen, I don't think In the twenty t twenty one version.

01:40:00
Speaker 2: No, they just like they show a photo of them, yeah, in the back of the the like an old shot of them. Yeah.

01:40:07
Speaker 1: Okay. But when she comes in and intervenes, her response is more heightened than what we saw Doc's response being in the nineteen sixty one version, where she says, you guys are disgusting pieces of shit, you're rapists. Yeah, so she does, you know, verbally call them out, But it was.

01:40:26
Speaker 2: Like after Ariana already got or like Anita already got yeah, so and Anita left, and then they gave her her own song, and that's like, I guess kind of what like timing wise, replaced that other song that we were talking about earlier, Okay, And I feel like this song was kind of like I feel like they gave it to Rita Valentino whatever, because like she is Rita Marino and like this was her, you know, reprising in the movie.

01:40:50
Speaker 4: But I just I thought it was kind of any time they add a song to a classic musical, it's like, don't ye don't do that. I was like it's never very good.

01:40:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's I don't know if whose idea this was, Like, I don't know how this came to be the set of the twenty twenty one version, but it seemed like it was maybe someone was giving Rita Marino a chance to sort of.

01:41:13
Speaker 2: Like rectify that moment from but feel redeemed.

01:41:16
Speaker 1: Or something by the trauma she experienced in nineteen sixty one.

01:41:19
Speaker 4: And it's like a career, like it's a career full circle. Like I don't object to her big in the movie, but no, no, no, yeah, but the scene.

01:41:26
Speaker 1: Itself, the scene should have been that she Yeah, it shouldn't have happened so that we still see so much of the violence on screen like I would.

01:41:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this sort of connect I know that there's I've we've been recording for so long. But one of the things I didn't or that I was like, oh, this, I guess is a slight difference in the twenty twenty one version, but again I'm not sure. I did do some reading on the portrayal of interracial relationships in West Side Story and how there there has been a fair amount written about that over the years. Oh my god, I have so many tabs, so many tabs, so many tabs, okay, or basically just to say that, like it reinforces, you know, and it makes sense to me in the time it was written, but like it, you know, reinforces the idea that interracial relationships are doomed, the point that I honestly hadn't considered that. I want to make sure I'm getting the shouting out the name of the writer, Olivia Edmunds Diaz wrote this in bitchflicks dot Com. Great name for a website, but during a feature they were doing on how interracial relationships have been portrayed on film. Obviously, the first issue is this is not actually an interracial relationship we're looking at. It's two white people and one is in brown face. But she also mentioned like she's like, I'm a huge fan of west Side's story, like, you know, I grew up with a lot of love for it. But she brought up something that hadn't occurred to me, which is in I feel pretty, she was like, I internalized that as like Maria has never felt pretty before because a white man has never called her pretty. It really struck me, I felt, so I was like, yeah, duh, Jamie and how and yeah that their relationship is portrayed as you know, just fully doomed again. I feel like that little wedding mannequin scene, I don't know, like I think it's sweet. I guess all I was trying to get at is in the twenty twenty one version, Rita Moreno and Doc being married is like, oh, a successful interracial relationship exists in this world, and that's nice.

01:43:32
Speaker 2: But then it's almost like twisted because when that scene happens and Anita runs into Rita, she's like, you're a race trader. She's like, you chose them, and look at where we're at, look at how they treated me. You are supporting all of these white boys in your shop while they abused me. And then she leaves and it's like, yeah, Rita has her moment, Valentina has her moment after to tell those boys what's up. But it's like not when it mattered, you know, So it almost still is having this conversation where it's like, does interracial related works? And you know it does. Every story is different. You know, there are white people that care about people of color like you guys, you know, so it's not like they're all doomed. But I don't think in this twenty twenty one adaptation they also created that dynamic. I think they were still like brown people and white people. This doesn't work right.

01:44:22
Speaker 4: It's like it's kind of impossible if you're building it on Romeo and Juliet to be like, yeah, it's gonna work out, like if famously it doesn't. Yeah, but but yeah, I guess just to acknowledge that dynamic as well as in the same piece talking about sort of the virgin horror tropes that are present within Maria and Anita, I'll just quote from the piece really quick. Quote of the two featured Puerto Rican women, Maria is the virgin trope to Anita's horror trope. Maria's virginity is emphasized to make her a safe choice for Tony, lest our white night be swept into a quote unquote dirty Puerto Rican's bed. One obvious manifestation of this is her white dress for the dance. Despite Maria's wishes for a shorter red dress like her role model, an Anita ensures Maria's virginity by keeping the dance dress white and at a respectable length. Anita's hard work pays off as the white knight. Tony only has eyes for Maria, who visually stands apart from the crowd. So again, not something that I feel like is at the fore, I do at least appreciate that even in the writing, at least of the movie, it sounds like Anita is portrayed somewhat differently in the original Broadway production, that I think that both of these characters are written with love and like there's certainly I mean, Anita is played with such care and love by Rita Marina that I feel like it's you can almost kind of miss that that is like very much a dynamic that exists.

01:45:44
Speaker 2: Yes, I think because Rita is such an incredible actress, and she plays a role with such a nuance, and she is honestly like she steals a show. She is so magnetic you forget that she's supposed to be a whore. I guess in complex or because like if you are looking at the movie at large, right, it's like they're not married. They make it it such a point that like Bernardo and Anita are together and they're not married.

01:46:08
Speaker 4: She's talking about having sex after the fight, which I thought was funny. She's like Bernardo gets so horny after a brawl.

01:46:15
Speaker 2: You're like, sure, and then they show her putting on lingerie and it shows many scenes. They're the only couple that like has a kiss and like are romantic to one another. But it's like, Rita does such a good job, You're just in love with them. I'm like, I'm just I'm rooting Bernita and Bernardo. I find their love story compelling.

01:46:32
Speaker 4: Best couple in the movie.

01:46:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I will say this, Okay, I'm watching the nineteen sixty one version. I'm like, everyone's ugly except for Rita Marino. I'm like, wow, everyone is ugly. I'm watching twenty toy one. I'm like, all the Puerto Ricans are hot. I'm grateful that in twenty two one they were like hot people will be in this movie and every you know, most people were hot. We're not gonna say ansel Ugger is hot because he sucks and he's canceled. But I will say Bernardo in twenty May one hot hot. I loved Ariana and Bernardo together and Eat and Bernard together.

01:47:02
Speaker 1: Hot hot hot, Yeah, incredible. I want to go back to the depiction of the Jets and the Sharks real quick. Obviously, the animosity between them largely stems from the Jets being racist toward these sharks and the Sharks not standing for that treatment. But there's also societal prejudice against the Jets because even though they are white Europeans, they are the children of immigrants from European countries that at the time were stigmatized in the US. So it's people of Irish, Polish Italian descent, and obviously the discrimination they experienced pales in comparison to the racism that the Puerto Rican characters would have experienced, the racism that black and brown people in general have always faced throughout the US and elsewhere. But what the movie doesn't seem to acknowledge at all, or what what I think the twenty twenty one version could have maybe done more of, but doesn't really seem to do, is that it's these two feuding groups of poor men, right, and we know that what usually is happening here is that it's poor white people buying into the propaganda that the reason that they're poor and miserable is because of immigrants from other places learning and stealing their jobs. Again, this is not explicitly said the movie, but This is like the context for why these things tend to happen, poor white people buying into the propaganda that the American Empire has been pushing for a very long time, so that they will target their frustration and anger against people of color and immigrants instead of fighting the people they should be fighting, which is obviously the rich ruling class, and that seems to be the basis of the brawl between the Jets and the Sharks. Movie doesn't None of the adaptations seem to be well.

01:49:06
Speaker 4: I feel like most movies are like not able to just say a cab and also to some extent, I do think, like, I don't know, while it would be awesome to see a multi racial coalition that unites to ruin the cops, I mean, I think we're seeing attempts at that right now in Minneapolis, and it's really really exciting you. But it is very rare and was four nineteen sixty one soft impressed at how the cops, I mean, the cops are more portrayed as like oafish violent versus murderous violent in this, which I think is a very hollywoodified, like cop with a donut kind.

01:49:45
Speaker 5: Of deal, especially at that time totally, yeah, for sure, But I did appreciate how like Officer Shrek an officer like how America and Officer Krupkey are like numbers that are kind of in conversation with each other because they're talking a lot.

01:49:59
Speaker 4: About how institutions view these groups respectively. And like Officer Shrek literally says at one point, I've got a badge. What do you have? He's like, I know it's a free country, but actually it's not, and get out of here, and he kicks he kicks the Sharks out of the out of the soda shop and hangs out with the White Gang and says, guys, look, I'm rooting for you. You just got to work with me. And that is like a dynamic that very very much exists that it was I was kind of surprised and didn't fully remember. Is just like pretty explicitly stated basically every single time that character appears on screen, he is like, I hate all of you, but I hate the Puerto Rican Gang much more so. If so, if the White Gang can just like lay low enough, I will not give you trouble.

01:50:46
Speaker 2: And yeah, you don't bother me, I won't bother you exactly, which.

01:50:50
Speaker 4: Which is like a tacit understanding that exists between a lot of bodies of power.

01:50:55
Speaker 2: I'm watched enough Chicago PD.

01:50:57
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like it is. It is a real thing, and I don't know, like especially in an over the top musical based on a Shakespeare play, it was not refreshing, but it was like, oh, that is like a weirdly grounded element of this movie. And that, you know, we see that the Jets are openly racist, like constantly, and in Officer krup Key you do get some context for like the Jets are aware of how the cops view them and almost play that to their advantage sometimes to play to the cops kind of like foolish, like they they're making all of these racist assumptions about the Sharks, but with the Jets, they're like, oh, well, their parents are all at it, like all these classist assumptions of like their parents are. Because I guess I was not entirely sure. I think I maybe interpreted it more as like sarcasm from the Jets. Maybe I'm wrong, but that they're saying like, oh, all of our mothers are junkies, all of our fathers are drunks, Like we're mentally ill we should be institutionalized. But I guess I interpreted that as them stating what the cops think of them, not what they're actually like. And we don't really get much background for what anyone's home life is like in this so it's kind of hard to tell. But we know that like Maria comes from a very loving home, Like, we're not really led to believe that the struggle has to do with an abusive household that has to do with poverty and oppression and so get I don't know. It's not like a great portrayal of cops, but it wasn't as like reflexively defensive of cops.

01:52:33
Speaker 2: It wasn't pro cop, which is good, like inherently good that it's not pro cop.

01:52:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are two rivalries in the movie. One is the Sharks versus the Jets, and the other one is the Sharks and the Jets versus the cops.

01:52:48
Speaker 2: And it's like, you guys, if you guys just used like ten percent more of your brain, you guys could have united it on this front. But instead you guys are like, well, we still got to kill each other and run away from cops, Like yeah, like.

01:53:02
Speaker 4: No, kill the cop, kill that together. Come on.

01:53:06
Speaker 1: Speaking of the Officer Krupkey song, which has of a couple lyrics that are transphobic or queer phobic in some regard, something like my sister wears a mustache, my brother wears a dress. Yes, whatever that's supposed to mean, very.

01:53:25
Speaker 4: Like of the time transferred where it's like almost like incoherent.

01:53:29
Speaker 2: You're like, well, Kitlin, are you getting into that character? Because I actually don't have a lot.

01:53:33
Speaker 1: So I do want to talk about anybodies, Yes we should.

01:53:35
Speaker 2: I don't have a lot of context, and I'm actually I would love to hear what you guys found out about them, because I'm also lost here.

01:53:42
Speaker 1: Here is my take on the matter. So this character is portrayed quite differently from the nineteen sixty one film adaptation and the twenty twenty one film adaptation. The way this character is framed in nineteen sixty one is that Anybody's is a woman who wants to be a member of the Jets, and she this is a tomboy tomboy queer coding possibly, but it's nineteen sixty one, so they can't explicitly say anything.

01:54:10
Speaker 4: The other thing was that I saw that like, because this is not a character that's mapped on a Romeo Juliet character, So everyone was like, who the hell is this? It was like said that at one point there was someone near the top of production for the Broadway show who I Unfortunately, I'm not a Slate Plus subscriber, so now the article's paywalled. But there is a great essay in Slate by Isaac Butler that was published about what we're about to discuss, how West Side Stories Anybody's went from a tomboy to a trans character, but that this character's origin appears to be that there was a butch lesbian who was at the top of production and it was almost like an acknowledgment for her within the space of the play. But the origin of Anybody's remains somewhat mysterious, and.

01:55:04
Speaker 1: The characterization of the character is quite vague in the nineteen sixty one movie. Now in the twenty twenty one version, Anybody's is more explicitly identified as gender queer trans Mask, played by an actor named Iris Manas who is non binary and trans Mask. There's a particular scene in the twenty twenty one version where the Jets have been arrested and they're waiting at whatever like the precinct to get booked, and they're harassing anybody's. One character in particular, I think it's the action care Again, I lose track of almost everybody, but one character in particular is harassing anybody's in a very queer phobic way, saying like, you're a freak, you're a girl, Stop pretending to be somebody that you're not. And then anybody's responds repeating several times, I'm not a girl. I'm not a girl. I swear to God, I'm not a girl, implying that this is a trans masque character. And I feel like it was handled in a way that felt appropriate for the time that this movie was set. You know, it's not like they're using like super modern language.

01:56:16
Speaker 4: Yeah, did you have to say super Mario sup super Mario language? Oh that they would, But no, like they weren't.

01:56:25
Speaker 1: Using, you know, the modern language and nuance that we have to discuss gender and gender queerness because this is set in the nineteen fifties. The character does have a small arc which you see both in both versions, where at some point toward the end, anybody's comes in and gives the jets a helpful piece of information and then the character responds by saying like you done good, buddy boy, Yeah, which carries more meaning. I think in the twenty twenty one version, where a character is saying, like, I see you, it's not.

01:57:00
Speaker 4: A girl as a mask person.

01:57:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think it comes from the same character who was harassing anybody's earlier. Did it need to That's up for debate, But because.

01:57:12
Speaker 2: They all kind of were harassing them though, so it's like, yeah, you know, I don't think it matters which character comes from, because it's like the group itself was being repatful and this was like the group accepting them.

01:57:25
Speaker 1: Yeah.

01:57:26
Speaker 4: Well, and another element of that character. And I'm only speaking to the sixty one version that I thought was I guess like what, Yes, particularly when the when the character was being framed more as a tomboy and possibly queer coded, is that even though you saw how anybody's was struggling and was being constantly dismissed within this hyper masculine group and you feel for them, they are also not allied with a woman as she's being assaulted. They are, I think, as we see happen all the time, allying with whiteness before other women and before they ally with women of color. And I don't know how like intentional that was, because anybody's is very much in the room participating in the harassment and assault of Anita in the sixty one version, Yeah.

01:58:18
Speaker 2: And I think in the twenty nine one ver I can't remember. Honestly, I can't remember either, because they did in the twenty one one version, as a way to like create women's solidarity, they did like kind of harass the jets women's too and like force them out of the room, and they were like you get out of here, and the women were like, no, don't hurt her, don't hurt her.

01:58:38
Speaker 1: And I would go a little.

01:58:39
Speaker 2: Random because you were like, well, in reality, I actually don't believe you guys would.

01:58:43
Speaker 4: In nineteen fifty with this feel like I just yeah, I don't know. Sometimes I again, that's I think it's a it's a sort of a thing that we're trying to figure out culturally of like, yeah, women can be wrong, like you know, and in fact are constantly, and it's okay to show that up. It's not misogynous to show a woman being hateful or wrong.

01:59:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it was like she was hateful to Anita up until the moment they started getting violent.

01:59:07
Speaker 4: And then all of a sudden it was like, wait, I was like, when you're gonna hurt a woman, I can't just like spit on her and color spick.

01:59:12
Speaker 2: It's like and you're like, wait, well, if you were willing to call her spick, then you probably.

01:59:17
Speaker 4: Put on the pink pussy hat.

01:59:19
Speaker 2: H Wait a second, No, You're like like, I don't think you would care if she's getting hurt if you were willing to call her a slur.

01:59:25
Speaker 4: And obviously it's like I'm not encouraging like hate crimes between women to be shown on screen, but I do think that sometimes it feels a little like defensive and dishonest too, especially when it's like specifically being like a white woman in this situation would do the right thing, because you know that's that.

01:59:44
Speaker 1: Is historically usually not true.

01:59:48
Speaker 4: It really is not the sure thing that it's often presented as. Yeah, yeah, I think is there there's stuff that that y'all wanted to touch on? I was like, this is I think I've gone through everything in my gigantic encyclopedia.

02:00:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, looking at my notes, I feel pretty thorough.

02:00:07
Speaker 1: The last thing I want in This doesn't need to be a long conversation or anything, but I do want to point out the misogyny. I mean, we've already been talking about it, but like just the misogyny that the men from both groups displayed toward the women. I feel like it's focused on a little bit more with Bernardo where there's a part where he's talking to Anita and she's like, choose between me or the war council meeting, and he says something like back home, women knew their place. Or like with Maria again, Bernardo, he's being protective. He's being perhaps overprotective of Maria. She's feeling controlled by him, and he says something like, well, when you're old and married and have five kids, you can tell me what to do, but right now it's the other way around.

02:01:05
Speaker 2: Yep.

02:01:06
Speaker 1: And Anita steps in and she's like, well, you know, she's free to do whatever she wants because this is America where everyone is free.

02:01:14
Speaker 2: Which is a little bit what I was talking about earlier, where it's like, I do think there's this idea. I mean I found that very truthful in a way where there is this ingrained, really toxic machismo even to this day in Puerto Rico, that we're fighting as women in Puerto Rico, that we do not have time to get into all the politics of that. But femicide is still very high in Puerto Rico. A lot of Puerto Rican men who are not working on themselves in liberation of Puerto Rico and things like that, like they are harming women. And I don't think Bernardo was harming the women in his life, but I don't think what he said is inaccurate to a family dynamic of a Puerto Rican family.

02:01:56
Speaker 1: Sure, right, because multiple things can be true. These characters can be the recipient of prejudice and racism, and then they can also turn oppression on to the people around them.

02:02:09
Speaker 4: And that like there's very few cultures that patriarchal abuse and control is not a facet of right.

02:02:16
Speaker 1: And worth noting that this happens with white Americans all the time is that they will use that as an excuse. They will be like, well, this group of people are really horrible to women, or they're really horrible to gay people, and that's why it's okay to genocide it like the.

02:02:30
Speaker 2: Israel playbook, Yeah no literally, and it's like, yeah, well that doesn't mean you deserve to be prejudice towards everybody. And it's also like, well look in the mirror.

02:02:37
Speaker 4: Babe, Like you're like, you would also kill thee Like what do you talk.

02:02:42
Speaker 2: It's like, we saw the fight scene and they just shoved all the women out of the room and basically assaulted them too. So it's like, right, you guys are being just as bad to women.

02:02:50
Speaker 1: The hypocrisy is staggering.

02:02:53
Speaker 4: They're like, you're like, Okay, we get it, everyone hates women. Next like it's yeah, uh, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I've If the movie was trying to make me dislike Bernardo, I would say, like I've found him, like, you know, he was being overly controlling, and like I understand as a teenager why you would be frustrated with him. But context, like in the context of the fact that Natalie would is, first of all, it's supposed to be perto Rican, supposed to be a teenager, and like you said earlier, Rebecca is very new to a country that Bernardo is kind of seeing right through the promise of the American dream and doesn't want his sister's optimism and naivete taken advantage of which it is like, they can't make me hate Bernardo. Yeah, right, well, and this is.

02:03:43
Speaker 1: I think contextualized a little bit more in the twenty twenty one version, where it seems to be pretty widely known that the reason Tony is no longer a member of the Jets is because he went to prison for some time for beating and nearly killing a brown person.

02:04:03
Speaker 4: Yeah.

02:04:03
Speaker 2: Oh, the Jets had already gotten to a fight before. They had had a rumble, maybe not with the Sharks specifically, but like they had a different a different gang. Yeah, and they he beat a man to death. And then in this twenty twenty one version, in the rumble, he almost beats Bernardo to death, but then Bernardo still ends up dying by knife instead, right right, right right, So, but the Jets had it'd be like stop right.

02:04:30
Speaker 1: So the backstory that like Tony almost killed a non white person seems to be something that like everyone knows about, and so Bernardo is like he like, this man is racist. Yeah, he is violent toward people who look like us. Maria, stay away from him.

02:04:49
Speaker 2: And I think Bernardo even brings up in the twenty twenty one version where he's like, hey, like you went to prison, and now you think you're cool with the Puerto Ricans because you were in prison with us. Kind of something to that nature in the rumble when they were like head to head and like Bernardo was like going at him and was trying to like provoke him, I guess, but it was like he's not wrong. It's like, oh, you went to prison and you like became reformed. I guess, like now you're not racist, Like Bernard didn't believe that.

02:05:16
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, it's just like that also implies that prison works. Yeah, okay, like r yeah, I didn't know that was an adjustment for twenty twenty one. I mean it sounds like twenty twenty one was an attempt.

02:05:31
Speaker 1: And it was an attempt. Yeah, and it was not a perfect attempt.

02:05:35
Speaker 4: But I gotta say I'm not I have I haven't been really effectively sold of like I gotta run, I gotta run.

02:05:41
Speaker 1: And see this thing crawl, don't walk.

02:05:44
Speaker 2: Well, I think there were some scenes that were great, but I do think there was a lot left to be desired. And I think a huge eye sore of it is the ansel ugward of it all, because it's like you can't be like we're trying to like fix the racism of this movie and fix all these things with this movie. And then high and abuse.

02:06:00
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, and then I do remember the like whough the whole like Rachel Zegler, as she so often is being like, how dare you speak to this man and press appearances? And I was like, that is not her call to make and she's a kid, Like she's being forced to make appearances with a predator, which question the system and not the teenage girl for once.

02:06:22
Speaker 2: With the predator situation, I'm like, you guys, hired a kid and he is like twenty eight. It's like we couldn't have fixed that either. We couldn't have hired another kid.

02:06:31
Speaker 4: I can't. I just can't. The Yeah, I mean, we still live in hell, it's just a different now.

02:06:39
Speaker 1: But yeah, that was pretty much all I had for me.

02:06:42
Speaker 4: Oh my god, I mean we could keep going, like I know.

02:06:45
Speaker 2: I'm like again, but we've been on long enough.

02:06:48
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, I think we need to liberate ourselves from.

02:06:51
Speaker 1: From my last thing, it's a really quick, really silly one. But I was going to propose an alternate title for the movie, which is Shark Tale, perhaps.

02:07:02
Speaker 4: Sharks Sharks Tail Sharkstail, A shark's tail, an extremely sharkstail movie.

02:07:08
Speaker 1: It's an extremely sharky movie.

02:07:10
Speaker 4: Wow, I love it. Thank you perfect no notes? Yeah?

02:07:14
Speaker 1: Great. Well that brings us to the Bechdel Test.

02:07:16
Speaker 2: Oh god, I know I was like, shit, I forgot about this part.

02:07:20
Speaker 4: Wait, come on, okay, I hate we were. I will say we were all on it today except for the podcast. Let's see. I think that the mood. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna go to Bechdel Test dot com. We forgot to do.

02:07:34
Speaker 2: I don't think they do.

02:07:35
Speaker 1: Here's what I've gathered. Maria and Anita. They talk about a dress.

02:07:39
Speaker 4: I actually do think that the dress, even though it is sort of laying out the Madonna horror dynamics between them. Uh, the dress conversation isn't a passing conversation. It is like supposed to be telling us how we are perceiving Maria. She wants to grow up, but she's not going to be allowed to grow up. She still has to wear this girlish white dress. I feel like that is a like significant enough yeah to warrant a pass. It is not a great pass. Yeah, I think it is a pass.

02:08:07
Speaker 1: No, because even like the song where the where Maria's singing about feeling pretty and all of her friends are there, and almost everything is still in the context of like, I feel pretty because a white man told me I'm pretty, or or just like very explicit conversations about either Tony or Bernardo. But yeah, I think there are at least a few brief exchanges where yeah, you could say it passes. But what about the Bechdel cast nipple scale where we write the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens uh Oh, I don't know. It's not a high number, but I do know that a lot of people connected with this movie because it was sort of all the representation that there was for the time. I know that this movie. Both adaptations had performances won from Rita Moreno as Anita that won her an Academy Award. Also shout out to her because she has egotted.

02:09:15
Speaker 4: Yes, one of the few, one of the few.

02:09:17
Speaker 1: But Rita Mareno was the first Latina actress ever to win an Oscar and then Ariana Debos, who also won for playing Anita, was the first Afro Latina actor to win an Oscar as well as the first openly queer woman of color to win an Academy Award for acting.

02:09:37
Speaker 4: Which is amazing and also that should be rewarded in their subsequent careers precisely.

02:09:44
Speaker 1: So, you know, this is a groundbreaking movie in some ways, but obviously, as we've talked about, still relied on many stereotypes. The nuances that could have been present in discussions about and race and all the other things that the movie examines just doesn't do it well because it was conceived of by white, non Puerto Rican Americans, so didn't really hit the mark. I'm going to give it one nipple.

02:10:18
Speaker 4: With all of that in mind, Yeah, I guess I'll go one and a half for no reason at all. I would just just because I know we have to wrap up. I'll go one and a half. I will give one to Rita Moreno, and I will give the other half to Cheta Rivera.

02:10:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, Sleigh, I will give it also one and a half nipples, because as much as I were really fond of the movie, revisiting it, I do think the nineteen sixty one version, you know, still represents women pretty poorly. I wish all the best for ridom Marino because she did not deserve all that bullshit, and all my nipples go to Riada Mareno.

02:10:58
Speaker 4: Yes of luck to her and her recovering from Marlon brand having section. Ultimately, this was about Marlon Branda's penis somehow. I mean, it really is.

02:11:12
Speaker 2: And that is a conversation I want to have with you guys offline. I will I can explain this please so.

02:11:18
Speaker 1: Well, Becca, thank you so much for joining us.

02:11:20
Speaker 2: Yes, thanks for having me.

02:11:22
Speaker 4: Yes, congratulations on the new show. We're so excited.

02:11:25
Speaker 1: Where can people listen? Plug away?

02:11:28
Speaker 2: My first episode will be out February third, past Tuesday, so listen, go check it out. This first episode is like very endearing to me because it's like a very intimate look at my life and my identity and like why I decided to do this project, Why how I came to be? Why am I questioning about my Puerto ricanness? So yeah, check it out. Give me feedback. If you are Puerto Rican, I want to hear from you. Email us at Welcome to a Barrio at gmail dot com. You can find me on all platforms. You listen to podcast. You can follow her in Instagram at Welcome to Our Boudio. My Instagram is bex p e ccs Ramos.

02:12:05
Speaker 1: And yeahy come back any time.

02:12:08
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for returning. I love when we have a two time guest and the movies could not be more different. So he has another curve ball.

02:12:16
Speaker 2: Next time I am high low Baby, I will also watch Horny, but also give you very thoughtful takes on Puerto Rican identity.

02:12:26
Speaker 4: Yes, she can do it all. And with that we are we are going to stand in the middle of a basketball court and really reflect on the events of the last three hours. Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and produced by Me, Jamie Loftus and.

02:12:49
Speaker 1: Me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann.

02:12:53
Speaker 4: And edited by Caitlyn Durrante.

02:12:55
Speaker 1: Ever heard of Them? That's me and our logo and merch and all of our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus, Ever heard of her?

02:13:05
Speaker 4: Oh my God? And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan.

02:13:09
Speaker 1: With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

02:13:12
Speaker 4: Iconic and especial thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo.

02:13:17
Speaker 1: For more information, about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash Spectelcast