Robert-Houdin, The Father of Modern Magic, Part 2

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson, and we are doing part two of our episode on Jean U Jean Robert Udna. Uh So you did listen the first one, highly encouraged because we're jumping right back in when we left off last time, Roberto Dea had just finished the Paris Expo, at which he had won a silver medal and sold his most impressive automaton to P. T. Barnum. He was still working in his shop as a watchmaker, but he had become proficient enough with automata that he was often called on to repair other people's mechanical props, and he had become pretty well known in conjuring circles in Paris. So today we are picking up right there to talk about how he pretty quickly transitioned from being an unknown watchmaker to being a famous magician in his early forties. Roberto den had been performing some demonstrations of tricks for people during the expo. That's we heard about that in the account from P. T. Barnum that we read in Part one. These seems to have been primarily done to show off the capabilities of the mechanized show props that he had on display there. But when the expo was over, maybe buoyed by his success, Roberto Den started considering stage conjuring more seriously. Exactly how he got to that dream is something that's told in different ways, although the primary players and details in the different versions are pretty consistent. Yes, so we're going with one particular version here today. No, as we talk about the interactions between these two men, they may or may not have been a little different. So this version states that the Count de la Scallopier happened upon barrow Don's shop while he was walking around Paris one day in eighteen forty three, so that would have been even before that Paris exposition that we've been talking about, and the Count was so impressed with Januen's inventions that he wanted to become his patron to help him with launching a theater. This interest on Las Galloper's part started not with a stage act automaton, though, but with something called a magic clock. Roberto Dan's magic clocks continue to be sources of fascination today, particularly for people interested in clockworks and watchmaking. There are still a few of them around in museums and private collections, and what makes them so extraordinary is the fact that they appear to work without any actual clockworks. The dial of the clock is made of clear glass, and the hands of the clock appear to be floating in the dial without any connections to any kind of mechanism, but they take out the time precisely. The clear dial is ringed in brass, and it sits the top a long glass rod. One that came up in the research was fifty seven centimeters or twenty two and a half inches tall. That height includes the round face, the glass rod, a filigree base, and a black lacquer pedestal with a red velvet top. So there are of course clockworks involved in this, there is no magic to it. The clock face is actually composed of three layers of glass, with the hands painted on the layers, and their toothed edges are hidden within the brass frame. That clear glass rod is actually two rods, one within another, and the interior rod is turned by a clockwork in the base and in turn catches the teeth on the edges of the clear round face plates to move the hands and keep time. It's a very elegant and beautiful design. I must say, yeah, that sounds cool. And the cowd let's Callapier purchase one of these clocks from Robert Dan and was so charmed by the clock and the shop and Robert Dan himself that he started going to the shop regularly to see what the watchmaker was working on and just to chat with him. It was through these chats that Roberto Dan told the Count of his desire to have a stage act one day, and at that point Les Glapier offered to finance it. He made that offer on the spot. At first, Robert Dan was reluctant. He didn't really want to risk someone else's money. But then several days later, the story goes that the Count needed a favor. He had noticed that money was going missing from his desk and he could not figure out who was taking it. He wanted Robert ro Dan to put his creative mind to catching the thief, which he did. According to an account written by Henry Ridgley Evans, who was a magic historian who lived from eighteen sixty one to eighteen forty nine, here is what happened quote the upshot of all of it was that uden he did not know to make it both names as Roberts, so sometimes you'll hear him preferred to just as Udan. The upshot of all of it was that Udin invented a clever device for apprehending the criminal. It consisted of an apparatus fastened to the inside of the desk in the Count's house. When the desk was unlocked and the lid raised ever so little, a pistol was discharged. At the same time, a claw like arrangement attached to a light rod and impelled by a spring, came sharply down on the back of the hand which held the key, inflicting a superficial flesh wound. With this clever machine, the robber was successfully caught. He proved to be the Count's valet, a trusted employee. Also reminds me of a whole episode of I Think, the podcast Criminal that I listened to about people setting booby traps to catch thieves. The count gave the money he recovered from the thief to Robert Udan. He told Robert and that he had to take this money. He could only repay it from the profits the theater made if the theater was indeed profitable. Sometimes this is reported as a sum of ten thousand francs, sometimes fifteen thousand. In either case, though it gave the watchmaker the money to start his own venue. Yeah. Part of the reason that number is a little bit unclear is that there was never an official contract here. There mentions of it from both men, but like they literally just shook on it and that was it, which is very trusting on the part of Desclopier. Robert do rented a space in the Palais Royale and custom built it out to be his performance space, which was a cozy, two hundred seat theater. He wrote of his renovations something deeply relatable if you've ever had any work done on your house, writing quote, I will spare my readers the numberless tribulations which accompanied my unending building. Mistakes in time and money are so usual in such matters that I need not allude to them here at length. All this was over, and with the liveliest pleasure I saw the last workmen depart, not to return again. He opened his theater to the public on July three with a show he called Soare Fantastique, and he ran his show very differently than other conjurers had before him. In his memoir, Roberto den listed the ways the theater reformed traditional stage conjuring. He had worked as an assistant to other conjurors and found the use of them to be more of a hindrance than a help, largely because it made the main performer seem less impressive. He also used gas lights instead of candles. He refused to use table cloths that draped down to the floor because he knew it made audiences suspect some kind of trickery was happening underneath the drape. He also wrote quote, of course I abstained from any eccentric costume, and I never thought of making any change in the attire civilized society has agreed to accept for evening dress. For I was always of opinion that bizarre Accouterma, far from giving the wear any consideration, on the contrary, cast disfavor upon him. We should note that most historians do seem to agree that there actually were some assistance in the theater. They were just not part of the act, but instead we're working behind the scenes to run the various mechanical props Robert used. He also had firm rules for himself about how he behaved in his act. He wrote, quote, I also traced out for my performances a line of conduct from which I never diverged. That was to make no puns or play upon words, and never to permit myself to be guilty of a mystification, even were I sure of gaining the greatest success. Finally, I wish to offer new experiments, divested of all charlatanism, and possessing no other resources than those offered by skillful manipulation and the influence of illusions. This was, it will be seen, a complete regeneration in the art of conjuring. My only fear was whether the public would accept these important reforms and such elegant simplicity. And really, the manner in which Roberto Dan presented his theater and his stage act is what actually makes him so notable in history, at least in my opinion, even if you never heard of him before this, When you hear the word magician, what you think of, or what you picture in your mind is almost certainly an image that is modeled on Roberto Dn. Biographer Christopher Fetchner wrote about the significant shift that happened to stage magic when Roberto Dan opened his theater quote, it's important to understand what magic was like before Roberto Den. Not only that, but you must understand how audiences viewed a magic show. Before Roberto Dan, magic was not considered an art. When people went to a magic show, it was to have fun. The magicians often pulled pranks on their neighbors. They were not big mysteries. There was nothing classy about it. Popular, yes, but it was a low level of entertainment, like performing animals. Roberto Den changed all of that and made magic a high form of entertainment, probably not only because of his repertoire, but also because of his charm and personality on stage, his elegance, his education. He was able to make magic acceptable to France's high society because he knew them very well from selling them his mechanical clocks and automata. When you entered into the theatre Roberto Den, you did not enter into a theater, but into a living room, and your host was on stage, and he talked to you like a host and magically offered you food, drinks, and gifts. The very idea of going to a conjuring performance became something Audiences dressed up for it was a fine evening out, which it had never been before. The best comparison I could think of to possibly make here is the difference in how you might approach going to a movie at your local cinema plex versus attending a play in an upscale theater. You would just dress a little nicer for the play. And that's kind of how this happened. And this all worked after a somewhat slow start, do in part to Robert Don not really having his stage presence in his banter figured out initially, his small theater was soon filled to capacity for pretty much every performance. Just as the watchmaker and magician had elevated the experience, he also elevated ticket prices above what people normally paid to see magic shows, so he did quite well for himself despite the limited seating. Additionally, because he himself handled so much of the theater's operations, his operational overhead was relatively low. We'll talk about some of Roberto dns stage spectacles in just a moment, but first we will pause for a sponsor break. Robertodon continued to keep his watch shop open so when events like the February Revolution of stopped most entertainment he was able to suspend his Paris performance schedule. Then he kind of went back to his regular day business for a bit. He worked at developing new automata, but then he went on the road touring Europe. He had tried to stay open during that time. He had offered free admission to his theater as a way of drumming up audiences. Before that offered to travel and perform elsewhere was made, and he found that he did not like the audiences that that approach created. Note and quote the free admission when he believes the theater short of spectators, imagines he is doing an act of kindness by accepting the invitation offered him while he was touring, and while he was in England on that tour, Roberto Dan gave a performance for Queen Victoria. That was the first of two he would have with her in his career. Robert Dean regularly introduced new spectacles into his show. So we'll talk about a couple of his most famous automata. The first is the Orange Tree. Roberto Dan described this trick this way and his writing quote A mysterious orange tree on which flowers and fruit burst into life at the request of the ladies. As the finale, a handkerchief I borrowed was conveyed into an orange purposely left on the tree. This opened and displayed the handkerchief, which two butterflies took by the corners and unfolded before the spectators. They're actually modern performances of the Orange Tree trick, although we know today that the item or items collected from the audience member are placed by slight of hand. The rest of this is a clockwork which is really quite charming and even beautiful. Yeah, there are some really good ones you can find. If you just go online and search roberta Orange Tree Trick, you'll find some, and they're pretty entertaining to watch. Also, incidentally, if you saw the two thousand six film The Illusionist, which contains a version of the Orange Tree trick, please know that the one in the film is an enhanced version inspired by, but not replicating Roberto Dance. Some of that is just movie magic. You may also read accounts that give slightly different versions of how this trick played out, including some that featured the oranges being plucked from the tree and passed around to the audience to eat as proofs that they were real. Those had been kind of placed onto the orange tree, onto these spikes that it had, so that they could bloom out with the clockwork. Sometimes it was those, sometimes it was fake ones, apparently depending on who does the trick and when in history it was happening. Houdini wrote about the Orange Tree trick in his Unmasking book. He noted that though Robert Dan claimed it as his own invention, it was really a variation of tricks that had been performed by other conjurors for more than a century before the Square Fantastique. Houdini traced the automatons design back to a man named Christopher Pinchbeck, Sr. Who died in seventeen thirty two and who premiered a trick called the Apple Tree in seventeen thirty. Udini then traced several other performers who used some variation of it between Pinchbeck and Robert Houdin. Because Robert Dan was such a voracious reader, Judini believed he had read about the trick as it was performed by his predecessors, and decided to make it his own and claim credit for it, assuming that not many others knew this history. He was borrowing from Houdini includes images in his book of playbills and advertisements in which fer performers advertised an orange tree trick. That sounds very very similar. Yeah, Houdini, as we have talked about on the show many times, a big collector of a lot of items related to magic and had all the receipts basically and reprinted them in his books to take on other people. Another popular automaton based act of Roberto Daz was a miniature bakery, sometimes called the confection Er. He described it as quote, a small pastry cook issuing from his shop door at the word of command and bringing, according to the spectator's request, partistory and refreshments of every description. At the side of the shop, assistant pastry cooks might be seen rolling paste and putting it in the oven. This description really does not convey how cute and charming this particular automaton is. Roberto dam would offer a member of the audience, normally a woman, a menu card with a selection of different pastries to choose from, um including a Mecca anon. A pastry chef would pop out the door of the shop to receive the order and then retreat inside to prepare it. And the audience would be able to see the baker moving within, as well as those assistants that he mentioned preparing the ordered item, and then after a few moments, the baker would pop back out of the main door of the miniature shop bearing the requested treat. This was another one that Roberto Dan was credited as the inventor of for a long time, but it existed well before him. Houdini wrote of this one quote. This trick in various guises, can be traced back as far as sevent nine. Reputable magicians offered it as part of their repertoire, and at times two men presented it simultaneously, showing that more than one such automaton existed. According to Houdini's research, there were many variations as well. There was a fruittery, a Dutch coffee house, and quote a Russian in from which ten sorts of liquor are served. After that, it evolved into the confectioner's shop, essentially the same as the way Robertodan had performed it. Neudini then offers up a lot of supporting documentation to make his case for all this. Then, for a trick called second site, Roberto DNA had a very special co star on the stage. That was his oldest son, Emil, and he credited his two surviving children with giving him the idea for this trick. He wrote, quote, my two children were playing one day in the drawing room at a game they had invented for their own amusement. The younger had bandaged his elder brother's eyes and made him guess the objects he touched, and when the ladder happened to guess right, they changed places. This simple game suggested to me the most complicated idea that ever crossed my mind. Pursued by the notion, I ran and shut myself up in my workroom, and was fortunately in that happy state when the mind follows easily the combinations traced by fancy. I rested my head in my hands, and in my excitement, laid down the first principles of second sight. Robert and said that amy is natural ability for recall was greater than his own, and that he also trained him in memory games to prepare him for the trick. Judini would later write that this was a complete waste of time. For the act, which premiered on February twelve six, Emil was blindfolded, and then Jean Eugene would hold up items that he had received from the audience, the boy would state what they were without having seen them. While the first audience to see the act was, according to Robert Dan, not especially responsive or receptive to this particular bit, later audiences really marveled at it's, so much so that he credits this act with being the one that really started his constant sellouts. In his memoirs, Robert Dan confessed the trickery of it that he and Emil had a code that was undetectable to anyone else, writing quote, A secret and unnoticeable correspondence existed between my son and myself by which I could announce to him the name, nature and bulk of the objects handed me by spectators. As none understood my mode of action, they were tempted to believe in something extraordinary. And indeed, my son, a Meal, then aged twelve, possessed all the essential qualities to produce this opinion, for his pale, intellectual and ever thoughtful face represented the type of a boy gifted with some supernatural power. Many who have studied Roberto dance work, including Houdini, believed that there was some sort of silent code like an electric signal, that Roberto Dan used, as well as verbal cues that he gave during his presentation of the originality of Robert Dan's Second Sight Act, Houdini wrote quote, some of Roberto Dan's ardent supporters insist that in claiming the invention or discovery of second Sight, the French conjurer was merely an unconscious plagiarist, having stumbled upon, quite by accident, a trick which he did not know that others had offered before him. Such a statement is illogical and absurd. Books of magic to which Roberto Den had access, in which he admits having read, described the trick in a more or less crude form. But regardless of how later of his sionados of conjuring have viewed Robert U Den, or if he was, as Houdini put it, quote, a clever purloiner and adapter of the tricks invented and used by his predecessors and contemporaries to the audiences of mid nineteenth century Paris, he was nothing short of amazing, and he did very well for himself because of it. We mentioned already that during the February Revolution he left Paris for a time to tour once he returned to his Palais Royal Theater. When that was over, he kind of became an iconic part of the Paris Entertained been scene, and that happened very quickly. He wrote of his return to the Paris stage, quote need I described the delight with which I presented myself once more before a Parisian audience, whose kind patronage I had not forgotten. Those professional men, who like myself, have been long absent from Paris will understand it, for they know nothing is so sweet to the heart as the applause given by a man's fellow citizens. Coming up will cover a surprising move on Robert Dan's part, handing his stage over to another magician. We will get to that after we pause and hear from the sponsors that keep the podcast going. After a while. Back in Paris, Roberto Den gave his student, Pierre at ten Shokat, who used the stage name Hamilton's, use of the theater, having taught him more or less his entire repertoire tricks. It just so happened that Hamilton's was also the love interest of Robert Dan's sister. This move was in part because Roberto Dan had noticed that he was not as energetic as he had been before his tour. He just found stage shows a lot more draining, But it was also motivated by the fact that his wife Olamp had just given birth to their first son in Blois, and he wanted to go there to spend some time. Once he was convinced that Hamilton's can more or less handle things, something that he tested, apparently by going to performances in disguise. He not only spent time with his family, but also decided to tour a little bit more. He traveled around France and then to Germany and then back to England, where he once again gave a command performance for the Queen. He returned to his Paris theater for a brief time, but then, at the age of forty eight, decided to retire from the stage. He once again handed the Palais Royal Theater to Hamilton's, this time for good. He had only been a theatrical magician for eight years, but had become a sensation. He later wrote quote at last in January eighteen fifty two, judging Hamilton's fit to succeed me, I decided on giving up my establishment to him, and in order that my theater, the fruit of my labors, might remain in the family. Two contracts were signed, and on the same day my pupil became my brother in law and my successor. Just a few years into his retirement, Jean Ugeenne Robert Dna was called back to the stage by none other than the French government. In eighteen thirty France had invaded and colonized Algeria. That began a one hundred thirty two year rule of Algeria by France, which did not end until nineteen sixty two. But the Algerian War of Independence, that period of foreign rule might have been much shorter had it not been for robertru Dam. This is sometimes related as kind of a fun fact about that time a magician stopped a war, and on a technicality, yes, you could say that, but what he really stopped was the reclaiming of Algiers by its indigenous population, which had been enduring what a lot of historians have categorized as a genocide for twenty five years at this point. That, of course, is way less fun, but also a more accurate way to put it. So all of that being acknowledged, here's what happened In eighteen fifty six. A revolutionary movement was growing among the Algerian population, and France was getting concerned. This movement was usually described, at least from the French side, as having been led by the Marabu. A Marabou is a Muslim religious leader, and often these figures are linked with military efforts because they often serve much in the same way that chaplains do with military forces of primarily Christian nations. When France occupied Algeria, they maintained order by getting a lot of the most powerful people in the occupied region in, including some chieftains on their side, and as a consequence, a lot of the population turned to the Marraboo for leadership. In the eighteen fifties, the French believed that the Mariboo were fomenting a rebellion. The French also believed that the reason that the Maraboo had such sway over the people of the region was because their followers believed they had magical powers. So the French thought if they brought in their own magician to make an even more powerful showing, the Marraboo would be discredited or at least humbled. In the complaisance with their European colonizers. That's how Roberto Dan found himself in Algeria in late October eighteen fifty six, with two special shows booked at the Baba Zoon Theater. The first show started quite pleasantly. He did the kind of benign and delightful tricks that you might see a magician perform, things like pulling flowers out of a hat, according to Roberto Dan quote, but it was not enough to amuse my spectable leaders. I must also, in order to fulfill the object of my mission, startle and even terrify them by the display of a supernatural power. My arrangements had all been made for this purpose, and I had reserved for the end of my performances three tricks which must complete my reputation as a sorcerer. So after those sort of benign tricks, he next showed the audience a strong box with a ring handle and asked for a volunteer to come up and see if he could lift it. A muscular man from the audience came up and was able to lift the box easily. Heads up, there's some very sexist language ahead. After the box was easily lifted, Roberud reportedly did some sort of magical art movement and said the words voila, you are weaker than a woman. Now try to lift the box this time. No matter how hard he tried, that volunteer could not lift the box. There are some reports that he tried so hard that his legs gave out and he fell to the floor. It was a total thor's hammer situation, like this was a mulnear and he could not get it. This left the volunteer very unsettled, as well as some of the audience. But it was of course a trick that Robert rod had done many times in his stage act with an electro magnet under the stage floorboards. Next, he caught a marked bullet in his teeth, after having told the audience that he had a talisman which rendered him invulnerable. One of the men in the crowd said that he wanted to kill roberta den, and the magician offered him a pistol to inspect and then use. That's a trick that's done a lot of different ways, depending on the conjuror's choice. Some use wax bullets instead of real ones, Some use guns that only shoot blanks. Some use magnetic bullets. All the magician has to do is keep the real bullet in their mouth until it's time to produce it. For somebody who doesn't know the trick, it is really impressive. The final trick the French magician you to quell this rebellion was to make one of the men from the audience disappear. This caused a panic. He basically did, like one of those you know behind the sheet is this man? And then he wasn't there anymore. And in the panic, there was this rush to leave the theater because people at that point thought that Robert Dan was a demon or was somehow channeling something dangerous. But then they found the vanished man outside, seeming a little bit disoriented. And then he did the exact same show the following night, convincing the Algerians that the French had powerful magic. According to Roberto Dan's memoirs, he actually didn't want to leave things in this state. Per his account quote, the blow was struck. Henceforth, the interpreters and all those who had dealings with the Arabs received orders to make them understand that my pretended miracles were only the results of skill inspired and guided by an art called prestidigitation and in no way connected with sorcery. He claimed that in thanks he was given gifts by all of the local chieftains as an honor. In h five, a paper in Algiers, which must have had a largely French colonial readership based on its content, referenced this performance and the ongoing feelings towards Robert Dean in Algeria by writing quote, he has remained in the grateful memory of the Algerians as an extraordinary man who spared France much bloodshed and moved colonization forward twenty years. Spots of dubious honor. Yeah, it's very crazy, and like Algeria loves him, and it's like, well, French colonizers in Algeria love him. That's a wide statement to make. After Robert Dan returned to France, much in demand due to his hero status for quelling that rebellion, he gave a farewell performance and then he retired permanently, this time to write and spend more time at home. He wrote several books on magic and conjuring in his remaining years. The end of Roberto Dan's life was hastened by the Franco Prussian War at one point, Roberto Den and his family hit out in a cave near their property for safety. This was not good for his health. His younger son, Yugen, was in the military and died after being wounded at the Battle of Worth. After hearing this news, Roberto Den also became ill. This was probably made worse by the stress of his loss and the ongoing conflict. He died of pneumonia on June seventy one. After his death, his theater did stay in the family for a while, though it changed locations. When Roberto Dan's son Emil died. The theater was purchased by George Miliz. Roberto Dan's house in Blois is a museum that is open to the public today. It seems right to you actually end this episode at the beginning beginning of Roberto Dan's memoirs. Whether he was a plagiarist, as Udini came to believe, or he wanted to be seen as a man who loved his craft deeply, and that's reflected in the introduction to his memoir, which starts rather poetically with quote, eight o'clock has just struck. My wife and children are by my side. I have spent one of those pleasant days which tranquility, work and study can alone secure with no regret for the past, with no fear for the future. I am, I am not afraid to say it, as happy as man can be. And yet at each vibration of this mysterious hour, my pulse starts, my temples throb, and I can scarce breathe so much do I feel the want of air and motion? I can reply to no questions? So thoroughly am I lost in a strange and delirious revelry? Shall I confess to your reader? And why not? For this electrical effect is not of a nature to be easily understood by you. The reason for my emotion being extreme at this moment is that, during my professional career, eight o'clock was the moment when I must appear before the public. Then, with my eye eagerly fixed on the whole in the curtain, I surveyed with intense pleasure the crowd that flocked in to see me. Then, as now my heart beat, for I was proud and happy of such success. Robert Dan goes on in this introduction to talk about the nervousness he would feel before each performance, the delight of performing for an audience and the sound of applause before asking quote, do you now understand reader, all the reminiscences this hour evokes in me and the solemn feeling that continually occurs to me when the clock strikes eight o'clock was forever his hour. I just like that intro. It's very beautiful. Maybe probably go stritten lovely just the same. I have a listener meal from our listener Caitlin that I thought was super duper interesting, and it's about our recent episode on wigi boards. Uh, since um you know we're still I'm still in my Halloween fields, frankly, and I will be four months. Um, Caitlyn writes, High Holly and Tracy and happy Halloween. Listening to the first part of the weigi board two parter last week, and every time you described it as a talking board, I had a little jolt. I've spent the better part of this academic year looking at the history and contemporary use of a a C or alternative and augmentative communication, which is the broad category for any type of communication that isn't spoken word, usually in speech therapy and special education circles. A a C refer specifically to communication books or devices, In my research, I came across the f hall Row communication board, which is often credited as the first commercially reproduced board and which sounds an awful lot like the predecessors of Wigia boards. I've attack to picture below, but in short, you have an alphabet along with common phrases the speaker human or spirit indicates in turn to form sentences. I did accessibility work for a play that starts to A A C using characters, and the Regia comparison would have been so useful for explaining to unfamiliar people what exactly a basic board does. I hope your holiday is spooky and fun. I've also included a photo of my cat, shark Depus, who vehemently rejects any Halloween costume I try to put her in. She is spooky in spirit, Caitlin um, that is very very cool, and I I when that cat is cute and she's a little torty, and I'm love a torty. I had not thought about the possible accessibility use of something like awegia. Yeah, my mom uses the device that has the whole alphabet and different specific things like like bathroom and coffee and that kind of thing. Uh, and I didn't make that connection either because we just think of them as such different realms I think, right, but they are very very similar. So that was fascinating. Caitlin. Thank you for like making that connection for me, because now I will look at each boards in a whole new way. It kind of opens up an interesting possibility for maybe where these might have started. We mentioned in that episode that they kind of just show up and people start writing about them and being like, oh, people love them for contacting spirits, but others just think they're fun. And part of me is like, was this actually some sort of device that someone was trying to put together for use in this this more um practical way for accessibility and someone got the idea to be like, I could play with that. Um. We'll probably never know, but it's an interesting thing to ponder. So thank you so much, Caitlyn, because that was a cool piece of insight. If you would like to write to us, you can do so at History Podcast at iHeart radio dot com. You can also find us on social media as in History, and you can subscribe to the show if you haven't already, on the I Heart Radio app or wherever you listen to podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from i heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.