70. The psychology of gossip

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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, Wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here, so great to have you here for another episode, one that I'm very very excited about. This week, we're talking about gossip, something a little bit different, a little bit unusual, but really fascinating. Nonetheless, and honestly, when we're talking about our twenties, it's something that is bound to be part of our lives. Since researching this topic, since thinking about it, I have come to realize and begun to notice how much of my own daily conversations are made up of talking about other people or details of their lives. And I'm sure that it's the same for a lot of us. We may say that we don't gossip. We may, you know, try and say that we're above it, that we don't talk about people behind their backs, or talk about the things that are going on in their lives. But let's be real, everyone does it. Gossip is everywhere, even in places that we don't recognize it, and it's because it is part of our human nature, part of what makes us social beings in very vast social networks across different groups and communities. But I think what I've come to realize is that there are different levels and different types of gossip, and some are obviously more insidious than others. You know, there's a difference between sharing a story about a friend and their trip to Europe or their work troubles or what they're up to, and saying something spiteful that you know is not true. And I think understanding that distinction is really crucial, along with some of the reasons and the factors that drive us to engage in gossip, whether it's negative or positive. So I really want to dissect the psychology behind why we gossip, why it's actually a fairly typical and normal thing for us to do, and the kind of different types of gossip that we will see in our lives and we find ourselves engaging in. I also want to touch on the role of gossip in our twenties and also how this type of social communication we might call it has changed as we've begun sharing so much of our lives on social media and exposing ourselves to potential criticism and gossip online. And I want to talk about how we can stop engaging in this if we would like to, which I hope that we would want to, how we can stop engaging in the more toxic kinds of gossip, and how this kind of gossiping creating rumors, maybe breaking the trust of friends. It's rooted in a lot of insecurity, a lot of negative self esteem. Gossip, as I've come to realize whilst I've been reading into this is so nuanced and so fascinating and, like I said, really crucial to discuss. In our twenties. I'm sure we've all had a few moments talking with our friends about something we knew we weren't supposed to know about. Maybe you've stretched the truth a little bit to sensationalize a story. Maybe you've had someone say something about you that you know isn't true. And you know what, maybe it's uncomfortable to admit to ourselves because gossip definitely gets a bad rap, but it's it's actually really normal. It's something that is really built into our society, into our human nature, and I just think that it goes to show how much of our lives is really built around how we think about other people, and built around the relationships that we share with others and our opinions on what they're doing and their opinions on us. I will say some of the takes, some of the things we'll discuss in this episode you might not agree with, and that's totally fine. But I want to really bring a different perspective to this concept and discuss some of the science, add a bit of color into the conversation, and hopefully, like we always aim to do, get you thinking about the role gossip may play in your own life. So, my lovely listeners, wherever you are, whatever time it may be, strap in, get ready, because today we're going to talk about the psychology behind gossip and the hidden role it has to play in our twenties. So gossip actually plays a really important role in our society and in fairly unexpected ways as well. Now, I want to make a quick distinction here, or maybe a quick disclaimer. Gossip definitely gets a bad rap, and I think for some really really good reasons, but also because of some of that confusion of what we are really talking about when we refer to gossip, I think when we typically think about the meaning of this word, we often get it confused with slander or lying, malicious rumors, tearing others down. And there's certainly a dangerous element of gossip that gets mixed up in those things, especially when we use our words to hurt others or to look better in front of people we want to impress, which is honestly never a good idea, or when we only ever have bad things to say about other people. And I'm sure we've all met those people. Maybe you've been that person at some stage in your life who finds themselves constantly saying negative things about other people, things you know aren't true, and often it is to make yourself feel better. But I want to rewrite that conception. I want to rewrite that definition for what we're talking about today, and what I mean when I refer to gossip throughout this episode is a way of sharing information by speaking in terms of others, or speaking of others in a way which is intended to convey a message, a story, a lesson, or an observation. In the absence of that other person, you know, it most likely involves details about another person. They don't always have to be negative details or private details, but details nonetheless, And I guess you can make a personal judgment about whether that is in itself wrong. Regardless of your opinion or how you define gossiping, we know that it exists. In a twenty nineteen study on the prevalence of gossip, these researchers, they found that on average, fifty two minutes of our day is spent gossiping, but only about a quarter of that is actually negative. And in another study, I think it was in the late nineties, ninety eight ninety seven, this researcher, Robin Dunbar, who's going to come up quite a bit in this episode, he suggested that gossip actually accounted for up to sixty five percent of what we talk about with other people. So we obviously know that it is a part of the fabriac of every society, even those that no longer exist. You know, I'm sure there was heaps of gossip going around about Julius, Caesar and Cleopatra back in the day. So what I want to talk about is why it occurs. What are some of the evolutionary reasons, The psychological explanations behind why we gossip. Anthropologists and psychologists alike. They've been asking this question for some time, and they have a few suggestions or opinions as to why gossip it might actually be a good thing and it's emerged to serve a social and evolutionary purpose. The book Sapiens by Yavao Noah Harari it's a really good read if you're interested in this topic, and it explains how gossiping began to take place as humans began to construct bigger societies and develop broader social networks. As we moved away from small tribes, often in a hunter in gathering or agricultural environment, and into larger villages and then cities, Gossiping was a way to create in groups with those that we trusted and to inform those people who could be trusted and who could not. Gossiping is essentially a way of conveying what we see as important social information, and another perspective from this same evolutionary psychologist Robin Dunbar He suggests that gossip is actually a means of survival because it allows individuals to share valuable information about those in our social networks with a large group. You know, this could include warnings about dangerous or treacherous behavior that may jeopardize the group. And as societies become larger, we couldn't observe every individual member's behavior like we were able to do in those intimate, smaller families and tribal groups, So gossip became a way to monitor other's behavior and therefore maintain social cohesion. I think this sounds very detached from what we perceive as gossip like these days. You know, the very mean girl esque picture of people sharing malicious rumors around the cafeteria table. But even in this scenario, the underlying evolutionary principle remains gossip is nothing more than an advanced warning system for antisocial behavior, you know, or freeloaders who may be taking advantage of the group or causing it harm. Some other researchers, they've also suggested that gossiping benefits us in a way by providing us with an implicit guide of what is socially acceptable and what's not good. I think a really good example of this is people who cheat on their partners. I would say for me and my close friends and many others, we collectively agree that cheating on your partner is wrong. If I come to my friend, you know, really outraged because someone we mutually know has cheated on their long term partner. By discussing this, we demonstrate to each other that we perceive that cheating is wrong. And through that process of what we may perceive as gossiping about that individual, we have been able to establish between us social norms about the kind of behavior we think of as immoral. And as this gossip spreads through a group of people, we get a sense of the collective criticism that also warns others about behavior that is not going to be tolerated and which may be met by negative backlash or at least negative gossip, which in turn does a lot of reputational damage. And you know what matters more in a large social group than our reputation. I think something else to consider, and which you know, kind of puts this explanation into a new perspective, is that we never actually tend to gossip about things that we see as acceptable. For example, you know, if we're talking about a friend's really amazing emotion at work, most people wouldn't see that as gossip. I would still say that it is. But even by talking about positive things and giving someone praise. In this way, we are once again conferring our approval upon behaviors that we see as acceptable and something to celebrate, or something that we deem as unacceptable. So far, we've kind of discussed how gossip helps with the exchange of social information and informs us on social norms within our society and what is not acceptable behavior. But I want to offer one more opinion on the evolutionary and psychological reasons behind why gossip is so commonplace. And this theory is that it actually creates stronger bonds between people and it creates trust. I saw a TikTok about this the other day in which the person describes how gossiping with someone about a topic, be that cheating like we said before, or some other unsavory behavior, is essentially conveying to that other person that you're not going to do that to them. Gossip is a means of bonding, of chitchat or conversation that is going to build trust between members of a group. And this potential evolutionary benefit it's actually been backed up by quite a few pieces of research in recent years. For example, there was a twenty fourteen study and it found that beneficial levels of gossip. They actually helped strengthen social bonds, They improved cooperation, and they helped resolve conflict. So there's that something interesting. What all these conclusions I think they have in common is that they see gossip as not inherently negative. It's even something that is beneficial and, like we said, improves cooperation and communication. And actually, I want to give one final theory here because I discovered this whilst doing a bit of a deep dive and I think it's worth a mention, particularly for my female listeners. I came across this book called All About Love by Belle Hooks, an amazing book by the way, but essentially what she concludes is that gossip is also uniquely important for women because traditionally women haven't had a major prominent voice in society or in public's places. So they have employed gossip in previous decades, in previous centuries as a way of inserting their opinion in a way that was deemed as acceptable. So there's another perspective. Take it with a grain of salt. I just thought it was so interesting, and you know, so far we have had a major focus on how gossip has found its place in society where it's come from, and through this discussion we've really highlighted some of those pro social elements. But as we all know, I don't feel like I need to say this, but I will. Gossip is not all cooperation and information sharing. It's not all about building a harmonious society. It can do a lot of damage and it has some very insidious and dangerous undertones, I would say, which I want to talk about in this next kind of section of the podcast. The negative connotations associated with gossiping. They haven't come from nowhere. I'm sure we all know how it feels to be on the receiving end of a story about ourselves that we know is not true, and it's really hurtful to realize that there are people out there who think that it is. That's the downside of malicious gossip, and it can make us rethink the times in our lives when we may have said something that's gone a bit too far or been a bit too cruel about someone else. That's one of those lessons I think we learn in our twenties how our social network works can sometimes not always be truthful, and how not everything we hear about other people is truthful either the same way that I'm sure there are things that have been said about you that are false. In many ways, I think gossip can be a bit of a guilty pleasure for many of us, especially when we know that it's not creating the harmonious society that many evolutionary psychologists claim that it does. And there have been studies that show that the way our brains react to gossip is with a bit of guilt, but also with a bit of enjoyment. This twenty fifteen study, using brain imaging techniques, it found that hearing about celebrity scandals or negative gossip about our friends, it made us feel more agitated, but it also made us feel excited. It's even been associated with a spike in dopamine levels, but that's often short lived and it's followed by a crash and stress and mental strain when we hear rumors about ourselves. This is often when this reaction is worse. We can experience a heightened sense of anxiety, especially when we feel that whatever's been said has had a negative impact in our reputation, and this can be followed by bipanic by exhaustion and depression. Heightened levels of guilt and so many more emotional consequences. You know, people who have been the subject of gossip tend to show an increased risk of demonstrating poor self confidence, poorer mental health, lowered personal and professional performance, and even sometimes eating disorders, depending on the rumors that have been spread about them. From this, it seems that we tend to like hearing gossip about other people and engaging in that activity, but this experience, it isn't as positive or exciting when we're on the receiving end, And I think this is really something to stop and pause on. We may like gossip, we may find that it brings us closer to others, but when we use other people to fuel our own entertainment or to sensationalize their lives, it's really important to consider how you would feel if you heard someone else was saying those things about you. How would you feel from you know, personal anecdotal experience. I think we know the answer to that. It's it feels awful, it feels terrible, it's really really shitty, And I think this is when our empathy needs to kick in. You know, yes, it feels good, but where exactly do we draw the line? I think there is a huge distinction between gossiping and rumors or bullying, and maybe that nuance isn't very obvious because I think both are things that are sensitive and shared between others. But rumors are often false, they're unverified, they're nasty, and they change each time that you know that they're retold. Whereas the definition of gossip that we provided earlier, we would hope that it's rooted in fact and it's about sharing information that you think is going to be valuable or help someone else. That doesn't mean that it still needs to be shared, obviously, That as a subjective conclusion that we come to. And I think if we are conveying social information because we have a concern for someone or for the purpose of knowledge, like sharing you know, or for the purpose of warning someone you know, or trying to convey a message, you know, sharing out our salary differences, or talking to someone about a nasty boss that you shouldn't work you know you should work with, maybe that's justified, right it has a positive social impact, it's something that's going to help someone else, it's kind of informing them. But when it's purposely to hurt someone, to undermine their reputation when it's not factual, and we know that, I think we're entering into into dangerous territory. Gossip can also be used to isolate people at times, and to create in groups or networks of people based on information they share about others, and I think that can also be incredibly harmful, even if it can sometimes be our natural instinct to try and find these intimate circles and build trust with them through gossip and other means. And because gossip is so ubiquitous, it can be hard not to fall into that habit, especially when other people are doing it around us. That obviously carries some very strong peer pressure along with it, particularly now that we recognize that gossip can be used as a form of bonding in some social situations. You know, you don't want to feel left out. You don't want to be the person who says, I don't really want to talk about that, because maybe part of you knows that the next minute they'll probably you know, be talking about you. But stop and consider why it is that you feel the need to share that information. Why do you feel the need to engage in that kind of conversation. You know there are there are good reasons, and there are evolutionary reasons that we can't always control. But it is you know, is it really necessary in that moment or is there a guilty pleasure you're deriving from it because you know that it's wrong, because you know that something contained in what you're saying is scandalous or perhaps not even true. I think we owe ourselves a degree of accountability in those instances, to stop and reflect and put yourself in the other person's shoes. This is especially crucial when it comes to online discourse, an online gossip. Your digital footprint is a very real thing, and it's very real for those around you as well, and for all of us. You know, the comments you leave, the things you say online, even in private DMS or messages, they're not easily erasable, and they're not easily forgotten either. And I really want to talk on this for a bit. You know, how has gossip evolved with the arrival and dominance of social media and the Internet in our lives? As I think things like Instagram and TikTok and Facebook even have risen, our lives have become a lot more available to those around us. And as we've started using social media more. In recent years, the opportunity for critique and also gossip has also increased. This has changed the way that we talk about others because we can receive more input and information on the rumors or the gossip that people are sharing to us. It's also allowed for information to move so much faster. This is really interesting when we consider one of those explanations I gave before You Know about how the evolutionary role of gossip was to moderate the behavior of large groups of people, where there are certain people who may never come into contact with one another. Now, well, we can find almost anyone online and we can obtain a lot of information about someone from their online presence, so that previous conceptualization of gossip it may no longer be applicable because we are able to keep track of what others are doing, not just through word of mouth and not just through gossip. And further to that, I think social media means the we're able to moderate people's behavior differently and say things more frequently that we know may not be true. Something I really couldn't stop thinking about when I was considering this topic and was considering the relationship between gossip and social media is cancel culture. I think cancel culture, you know, in itself, deserves an entire episode, honestly, because it would be so fascinating, Like the psychological explanations behind that would just be endless, would be so intriguing. But maybe for another day. I just think that social media has allowed rumors and gossip to quickly become fact, especially when enough people engage and share information around. Have you ever seen, you know, those things where something that's unconfirmed suddenly becomes news because someone's made a TikTok about it, or you know, someone's made an Instagram post or commented something. The opinions and observations that we previously shared offline that we see as gossip, they now have a place online. And a place online means that information has shared so much faster, and it's taken out of context and conveyed between multiple groups of people countries even so quickly, and it's really difficult to erase. And how much you know and how often do we actually take a step back to really consider the truth behind the things that we see online. It may be true, it may be a way of promoting social norms, or promoting accountability or correcting people's behavior. The same way that gossip used to do. But I think it's a lot more complicated than that, and I think sometimes the truth of the matter can be taken out of context. That's where social media can be particularly harmful, especially when we think about gossip and we think about how we share information with others that may at times not be true and that may at times be a little bit nasty cyberbulling. Okay, that's another thing I really want to talk about, because I think it's another element that is really important when we consider this conversation, When we consider the role of gossip in our twenties and in our kind of online lives, gossip can really become a tsunami of falsity, in a tsunami of cruelty, and when that is directed at us online, it can really feel like there is no escape at all. You know, when we were children, whatever was happening at school, whatever people said about us when we were home, we could switch off and we didn't have to hear it, and we wouldn't have to be faced with it. But now, you know, I always think about kids that are in primary school or high school now who are experiencing some level of bully, and you know how terrible that would be because everywhere you go, you have the Internet and you have your phone, and people can say whatever they want with very little accountability. Those things that people say about us, they follow us online, and that is so horrendous. So I think our understanding of how gossip has evolved, in what function it serves in today's society, it should really force us to reconsider how we use the internet or the conversations that we have with our friends, and whether the information where sharing is really necessary. You know, maybe it is time to reframe and rethink society's relationship with gossip. But with it being so commonplace, how can we retrain and recondition ourselves to not engage in this time of information sharing or to stay in our own lane. As one of my good friends says, well, I had to look into this as well. You know, this show is, at the end of the day, always focused on agency and the ways that we can improve our lives. So maybe one way that we can improve our lives is to break away from gossip, regardless of some of the social benefits that psychologists and anthropologists have recognized. So I had a little look into this, and you know, like I said, I had begun to be, you know, be more aware of my own conversations and some of the things that were said to me and that I've even said, and think about the implications that might have for my relationships and my relationship with particularly other people. The first thing that I think is really important if we're thinking about how we can stop gossiping or particularly if you know, stop sharing things or being malicious, is really considering why do we feel the need to say these things? Why do we feel the need to fill our conversations or to fill silent space with information about other people? Yes, as a social component, but sometimes it's also insecurity. Maybe you feel that the person you're talking to, you know, you guys don't really have much to talk about, and so what's more entertaining to talk about than what other people are doing. It takes the focus off of both of you, right, you know, maybe you're just insecure about something in your own life, and you find that talking about other people's problems makes you feel a lot better. You know, maybe your relationship isn't going that well, so talking about the ways that other people's relationships might not be going well either, or maybe suffering alleviate some of that stress for you. You know, gossiping is a really way, is a really amazing way to alleviate stress because I think a lot of the time we're focused on our own problems, and we're focused on our own mistakes, and it's easy to not look in a mirror and to instead look to other people and think about their mistakes rather than our own. So in many ways, I think it's important to stop and consider why is it that we feel the need to say those things? Why do we feel the need to engage in negative gossip. Secondly, it's important to have empathy. Don't rush to judgment. Don't rush to judge other people. Think about yourself in their situation before you say anything, and question what you've heard. You know, is that really true? Would you like it if someone said that about yourself? And also what would you have done in that situation. Maybe what you're hearing is completely factual. Maybe it is something that you don't agree with, but we never really know the full story, and sometimes it's important to have empathy for those people. Recognize that people make mistakes and maybe they don't want everyone talking about it. You know, I've done embarrassing things before and I cringe them, and I think, you know, how embarrassing was that. And sometimes it's been in the privacy of my own home, but sometimes it's been in front of other people. And I would hate for people to still have that impression of me, or you know, to think of me that way, or to be sharing those embarrassing moments with others. Notice how you feel after your gossip. Maybe you and your friends have sat down for coffee or something like that, and you've been going on and on and on about an old friend from high school and something that she's posted online, or some kind of gossip or judgment that you have. How do you feel after that? Do you feel positive? Do you feel good? I'm guessing you probably don't. I'm guessing you probably feel kind of a negative energy within you. You kind of feel a bit drained because emotionally and unconsciously you know that it probably wasn't the right thing to say, It probably wasn't the truth, and recognizing that feeling, noticing how you feel afterwards is a really great way to reframe your behavior and reconsider your own relationship with gossip and how you feel after talking with other people about the details of others' lives, I think also, so only convey what is crucial. From this episode, maybe you've taken away that gossip is pretty normal, and I would agree obviously. I think that it is a normal social and evolutionary reaction to our communities and to our societies. It's a really crucial way that we share information. But when we decide to share details about someone else's lives, is this information actually important and is it the right person to be sharing it with? You know, in cases where we might be seeing, you know, I use that example that I gave before about a boss who's really mean or really rude and talking to one of your colleagues and saying, oh, you know, they're you know, a little bit rude and they can be really strange and they're not particularly nice, so maybe watch out or try not to work with them. That might be important information to share because it's warning them, it's giving them social information that they need to make to you don't make a decision. But in other instances, I don't think it's as crucial as that, So really think about why it is that you feel the need to share that information and only convey what is really important. Finally, be more mindful about the quality of your conversations. There are good conversations, there are bad conversations, there are everything in between. But like I said before, sometimes when we leave a social interaction and you realize that you've only really talked about other people, it doesn't leave us feeling particularly good. Maybe you would have enjoyed yourself more if you talked about things that were more important to yourself or more important to that other person. Discussing, you know, whatever you did on the weekend, your thoughts on something in the news, or some discussion that you've wanted to have, you know, sharing your own emotions and feelings about something. That's a pretty good quality conversation, right, It's something that leaves us feeling really rejuvenated and really enlightened and really seen. But when we talk about other people, you know, it doesn't always leave us feeling that way. So if you're someone who's realized that you spend a lot of time thinking about other people, talking about other people, even gossiping, be more mindful of the quality of your conversations. And I think those five things really help us reframe our relationship to gossip as a positive thing, as a negative thing. Whatever it may be, and try and turn that dial back towards a healthy relationship with it, and even a healthier relationship with the people in our lives, when our conversations, when our social interactions are not dominated by speaking about other people. I think that's a really great place to end it, on a positive note, on an enlightened note, on a self improvement note. Thank you so much for joining me in today's discussion, possibly one of my favorite topics. I just had to do it after I was talking about it with a friend the other day, and since researching and having conversations with my friends, you know, like I said, I've begun to notice how commonplace it is. Like I said, I do think that the idea of gossip is a lot more nuanced than we would initially think. You know, who would have known that it had so many social benefits and evolutionary upsides. But I also think it's really important to consider all sides of a story, not just the one that you've been told. You know, we're on our way to becoming better people in our twenties, and maybe this is something you want to address, or you found yourself engaging in gossip more than your liking So I really do truly hope that you've enjoyed this episode, that you've learned something, that you begin to pay attention to your conversations the way that I have. I think it's so fascinating when we do the mental math about how often we do talk about other people and whether that's really crucial, whether that's really important, or whether it could be avoided. So thank you again for following along, for listening to all this kind of information that I've probably dumped on you at this think it is so fascinating. 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