TLF Talk: James Dixon, Author of 'Titan Shrinking'

<v Speaker 1>It's the Lapsed Van Wrestling podcast special report. The Lapsed
<v Speaker 1>Fan presents the Complete Hul Cogan, a real American story,
<v Speaker 1>brought to you by Garage Pierre.
<v Speaker 2>We had to pull this one together, Boss, because in
<v Speaker 2>the special interview Vane, if we're going to be in
<v Speaker 2>the middle of the Complete Hull Cogan, we all know
<v Speaker 2>where we're heading, right, We're heading to Hulk gets massive,
<v Speaker 2>Hulk makes millions, Hulk has to shrink again when the the.
<v Speaker 3>Stay rights deflation, we're talking about inflation.
<v Speaker 2>We're talking about deflation in the months to come on
<v Speaker 2>TLF and serendipitously, there is a book that has dropped
<v Speaker 2>that we think might make a very nice compendium. This
<v Speaker 2>author's really entire Titan series. In a lot of ways.
<v Speaker 2>We'll track kind of the pivotal moments in which Hulk
<v Speaker 2>Hogan and the WWF came to fruition, but perhaps no
<v Speaker 2>more than the latest release, which is tight and shrinking.
<v Speaker 2>The author is James Dixon. You might know him from
<v Speaker 2>his many collaborations with Kenny McIntosh and the Inside the
<v Speaker 2>Rope's Crew over in the UK. He's done a series
<v Speaker 2>of books chronicling and really nice compendiums of everything that's
<v Speaker 2>been said by people who were there through the Titan rise.
<v Speaker 2>You might remember Titan screwed, Titan sinking, Titan shattered, and
<v Speaker 2>now it's Titan shrinking. How wrestling's muscle lost its power.
<v Speaker 2>James Dixon joins TLF to talk all about it. James,
<v Speaker 2>great to have you on the show man.
<v Speaker 4>Thank you very much. My absolute pleasure. I'm a big
<v Speaker 4>fun of you guys, so it's great to be with you.
<v Speaker 2>Oh it's a good start, so very good start. I
<v Speaker 2>want to start by going to a point in the
<v Speaker 2>book where you talked about your author conducted interviews, because
<v Speaker 2>if folks don't know one of the things James does
<v Speaker 2>exceptionally well, it's not only like what we do. Go
<v Speaker 2>through all the shoot interviews, go through all the media articles,
<v Speaker 2>go through all the observers and the torches, all the
<v Speaker 2>contemporaneous stuff, and really pull it together because it is
<v Speaker 2>so hard in professional wrestling to make sure you account
<v Speaker 2>for everybody's voice, not only everyone who was there, but
<v Speaker 2>everyone who claims to be there, and all of the
<v Speaker 2>debunking that has to go with, you know, the fact
<v Speaker 2>that you're you're you're sort of quoting professional liars, for
<v Speaker 2>ninety percent of what you're doing. And so James, at
<v Speaker 2>the at the end of Titan Shrinking, which is available
<v Speaker 2>now on Amazon and wherever get your books, has an
<v Speaker 2>author conducted interview section. A couple of folks really caught
<v Speaker 2>my eye, James, and I wondering if you could start
<v Speaker 2>just taking us into how these different folks contributed. One
<v Speaker 2>of the people you talked to was JJ Dillon, which
<v Speaker 2>he was there of course and a vice president of
<v Speaker 2>talent relations capacity. And first, you know, to introduce folks
<v Speaker 2>to the book, and then if you could start with Jj,
<v Speaker 2>I'd love to hear kind of what you gleaned from
<v Speaker 2>talking to him.
<v Speaker 4>Sure. Yeah, So with so the intro to the book is,
<v Speaker 4>as you mentioned, I'd release the other three the Titan trilogy,
<v Speaker 4>which covered ninety five to ninety seven, and for the
<v Speaker 4>last decade, Kenny Macintosh and the Ropes has been pestering
<v Speaker 4>me relentlessly to write a new one. I'm just like, man,
<v Speaker 4>there there's nothing I write about ninety eight ninety nine,
<v Speaker 4>like we w F then was on fire, So who cares?
<v Speaker 4>You know, there's nothing, there's nothing interesting about them doing
<v Speaker 4>well and everyone getting along and making a lot of money.
<v Speaker 4>But I was like, you know, my thought about it,
<v Speaker 4>ninety two, there's a lot happens in ninety two. You've
<v Speaker 4>got the UK boom, which which was huge. I don't think,
<v Speaker 4>you know, US fans realized just how big the UK
<v Speaker 4>boom was. Like, obviously they're aware of it, but I
<v Speaker 4>don't think there's an appreciation for that's as big as
<v Speaker 4>wrestling's ever been in the UK. Yes, was in ninety two,
<v Speaker 4>and not just for Summer Slam, you know, it was
<v Speaker 4>just everywhere, everywhere, mainstream. And he's like, well, that that's
<v Speaker 4>a big part of it. And it's a real nice
<v Speaker 4>juxtaposition with the WF in the US and the rest
<v Speaker 4>of the world's going down quite a lot and in
<v Speaker 4>every metric really, and Hogan obviously leaving is a big,
<v Speaker 4>big part of that, and are the reasons why and
<v Speaker 4>everything going down behind the scenes, and it's like, you know,
<v Speaker 4>there's there's a story here to be told. And the
<v Speaker 4>more I thought about it, I said, well, yeah, okay,
<v Speaker 4>you can go into ninety three and kind of the
<v Speaker 4>New Generation stuff, and and then obviously the big climax
<v Speaker 4>of the new trilogy, which is what this inevitably now
<v Speaker 4>is is obviously the steroidrout which which you guys know
<v Speaker 4>a lot about, And yeah, there's that's there's there's a
<v Speaker 4>task aheademy on that one to get that coherent and
<v Speaker 4>making sense. But it's it's a fun project. You know,
<v Speaker 4>it was a fun project to work on. And I
<v Speaker 4>wasn't convinced when I started that there'd be enough to
<v Speaker 4>fill out a book, but then I realized there was
<v Speaker 4>more than enough. You know, so much happened, so many
<v Speaker 4>people leave, so many new faces come in, and yeah,
<v Speaker 4>so it's worked out pretty well. But as for for JJ,
<v Speaker 4>that's actually an interview I did ten years ago. Wow.
<v Speaker 4>Funnily enough, So I interviewed JJ for the for the
<v Speaker 4>original trilogy. I don't remember how I got hold of him.
<v Speaker 4>I think it was through so I'm friends with their
<v Speaker 4>doc to Tom Richard, and he because I was there
<v Speaker 4>was a point where it's never going to come out,
<v Speaker 4>so he hopes it. But there was a point where
<v Speaker 4>I was working with him on his autobiography and we
<v Speaker 4>worked it for a while and then you know, it
<v Speaker 4>kind of fell through for a bunch of reasons, and
<v Speaker 4>you know, but we stayed close, and when I was
<v Speaker 4>doing this book, obviously I spoke to all those books. Sorry,
<v Speaker 4>I spoke to him and I said, look, I'd love
<v Speaker 4>to speak like JJ and others, because people always hear
<v Speaker 4>the restless point of view, but they're not the ones
<v Speaker 4>who matter because they don't either know what was going on,
<v Speaker 4>they don't remember, or they make it up, as as
<v Speaker 4>you alluded to. The guys who were working behind the
<v Speaker 4>scenes in the office or who were like the PR
<v Speaker 4>guys or the ring crew or whatever, they're the ones
<v Speaker 4>you want to speak to you because they remember it,
<v Speaker 4>you know, they remember it all. So and JJ was
<v Speaker 4>obviously really heavily involved behind the scenes in WF. So yeah,
<v Speaker 4>Tom Tom hooked me up with him, and I just
<v Speaker 4>give a call, and he was very very pleasant, very cordial,
<v Speaker 4>and you know, very willing to share anything that I
<v Speaker 4>asked him, and to the best of his recollection, obviously,
<v Speaker 4>and a lot of it was already in his really
<v Speaker 4>excellent book, which is Wrestlers Like Seagulls and you know,
<v Speaker 4>which is a very accurate description. And yeah, he was
<v Speaker 4>very willing, very accommodating. But like I say, it was
<v Speaker 4>a decade ago, so in terms of what he said,
<v Speaker 4>I'm not entirely sure word for word what he said.
<v Speaker 4>But I did make notes of everything he told me,
<v Speaker 4>and a lot of it because he would.
<v Speaker 2>Go he was in the office during a lot of
<v Speaker 2>this like panic mode, and he's credited or it depends,
<v Speaker 2>like you want to phrase it with getting Jerry Jarrett
<v Speaker 2>involved right in case goes to jail.
<v Speaker 4>Yes, yeah, that was because there's a lot of dispute
<v Speaker 4>over that, whether that's true or right. It's like, oh,
<v Speaker 4>you know, you get people said, now, now, Vince, that's
<v Speaker 4>not why he brought in Jerry Jarrett. It was he
<v Speaker 4>just kind of brought him in for advice. And it
<v Speaker 4>wasn't because he was going to jail. It was because
<v Speaker 4>he was going to jail. Of course, it was Vince.
<v Speaker 4>Vince was convinced, convinced that was going to be made
<v Speaker 4>an example of. So there had to be a contingency, right,
<v Speaker 4>and who I mean it was Jerry Jarrett the right option,
<v Speaker 4>probably not given the sort of style of wrestling he
<v Speaker 4>promoted and what Vince liked. And I don't think anyone
<v Speaker 4>could have really replaced Vince, you know, and been the Vince.
<v Speaker 4>It would have been Vince run from prison and everyone
<v Speaker 4>else just doing what what he said, but yeah, it
<v Speaker 4>was JJ wh wh who brought him in because he
<v Speaker 4>realized that Vince needed help. Amazing.
<v Speaker 3>So, Boss, have one quick question about Tom Pritchard. Now
<v Speaker 3>his his doctorate in desire? Is it an MD or
<v Speaker 3>a PhD? Do we know?
<v Speaker 4>I think he's got a master's degree.
<v Speaker 3>Yes, there we all right curious.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, when he said it'll never it'll never come out,
<v Speaker 2>I was so deflated because I thought we'd finally get
<v Speaker 2>an answer to that long burning question relative to his CV.
<v Speaker 4>I'll confermo deny whether that's in the book.
<v Speaker 2>I'm afraid JP is going to turn it to you anyway,
<v Speaker 2>because someone else that that James spoke to was Harvey Goldsmith,
<v Speaker 2>who was involved a lot with bringing WWF to Wembley
<v Speaker 2>for SummerSlam ninety two and all of the UK tours
<v Speaker 2>and really kind of plugged in from the UK side
<v Speaker 2>when the rock and wrestling phenomenon began. We know, well, Boss,
<v Speaker 2>you know how prominent that era was for UK fans
<v Speaker 2>because we spent a lot of time talking about ninety
<v Speaker 2>one ninety two and so many of the listeners are
<v Speaker 2>from the UK.
<v Speaker 3>Oh, it's it's tremendous. I mean, we we've I've really
<v Speaker 3>gotten a whole new appreciation. I mean we have, not
<v Speaker 3>just me, but we've gotten a whole new appreciation for
<v Speaker 3>that that era, because there are so many shows that
<v Speaker 3>we have been led to and that we have now
<v Speaker 3>watched and reviewed that we didn't even know necessarily existed,
<v Speaker 3>you know, back then, at least not on tape. I
<v Speaker 3>always think of the the Battle Royal at the Alfred
<v Speaker 3>I said, Alfred Hall, like Alfred Hayes Lord, Alfred Hayes Hall,
<v Speaker 3>and it's I just I knew it was big, but
<v Speaker 3>I'm I really had no idea that it was as
<v Speaker 3>big as as its being described. It's really remarkable that
<v Speaker 3>it was kind of a mainstream thing as wrestling was
<v Speaker 3>kind of dying off in the States. You know. It's
<v Speaker 3>such a weird, kind of a weird juxtaposition to use
<v Speaker 3>that big word.
<v Speaker 4>I mean, with the UK, it did get start to
<v Speaker 4>get big in probably ninety and eighty nine, when they
<v Speaker 4>first came over and when it was on TV, and
<v Speaker 4>it was a strange thing over here because it was
<v Speaker 4>on TV on on different stations, so it kind of
<v Speaker 4>bounced around and everyone kind of wanted it, you know,
<v Speaker 4>and it became the thing for SkyTV over here to
<v Speaker 4>Laune Hull, Cogan was like front and center of SkyTV's
<v Speaker 4>launch alongside you know, Premier League football and movies. It
<v Speaker 4>was it was every bit as big and as big
<v Speaker 4>a part of the package that you had to pay
<v Speaker 4>for which was new over here. Then you know, it
<v Speaker 4>was huge. And Harvey Goldsmith very smart guy, you know,
<v Speaker 4>very you know, big name promoter over here, and he
<v Speaker 4>he saw it, you know, pretty quickly, and he made
<v Speaker 4>sure that he was the one, you know to get
<v Speaker 4>in there with w F and and you know, bring
<v Speaker 4>him over and even though that was the case, he
<v Speaker 4>was shocked when you know, Vince I think it was
<v Speaker 4>Vince called him direct or someone from Vince's office was like,
<v Speaker 4>can you get as Wembley And he's like, man, that's
<v Speaker 4>going to be that's going to be a challenge. That's
<v Speaker 4>going to be a challenge. He had, like he had
<v Speaker 4>booked Wembley before. There was a really famous concert over
<v Speaker 4>here called Live aid In.
<v Speaker 3>Concert.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah it still is like it's still like this iconic
<v Speaker 4>event and that and that was Harvey who was involved
<v Speaker 4>in that, and you know he took notice and he
<v Speaker 4>was well aware of what was going on here and
<v Speaker 4>and him and his team, you know, they wanted to
<v Speaker 4>they did want to bring it over and they and
<v Speaker 4>they did, and you know, he spoke to Hogan, he
<v Speaker 4>spoke to you know a lot of the guys. He
<v Speaker 4>became friendly with them and they trusted him. And obviously
<v Speaker 4>he did great job over here because it was always
<v Speaker 4>always sold out like that, you couldn't get tickets. It
<v Speaker 4>was unbelievable how difficult it was, you know, the market
<v Speaker 4>for them, and it was. Yeah, he noticed how well
<v Speaker 4>it did on Sky. It was kind of the Simpsons
<v Speaker 4>and wf they were the two big things, right and
<v Speaker 4>then and I think he noticed there was a PR
<v Speaker 4>guy called Chris Pool and he had a business partner
<v Speaker 4>called Alan Edwards, and I think they'd been summoned to
<v Speaker 4>a meeting with Harvey. And he was like, right, it's
<v Speaker 4>we're bringing something over. And they were like, oh wow,
<v Speaker 4>the Rolling Stones or something. It's like it's wrestling and
<v Speaker 4>this and this. Chris Pool was like, Alan Edwards is
<v Speaker 4>like what the hell is this? And but Chris Poole
<v Speaker 4>was like, oh, my son is obsessed with wrestling, Like
<v Speaker 4>I know them all, Like I'm constantly subjected to it.
<v Speaker 4>On Sky. You know, so he took over the you know,
<v Speaker 4>being involved in that, and he was sort of a
<v Speaker 4>big champion of that, and you know, we talked to
<v Speaker 4>him as well as part of the book, and yeah,
<v Speaker 4>did they were I guess they were not surprised that
<v Speaker 4>Vince did Wembley. I wanted to do Wembley, but I
<v Speaker 4>don't know if they're entirely convinced that he could do it,
<v Speaker 4>but obviously it was no problem whatsoever.
<v Speaker 2>That's great color, yeah, because it is kind of a well,
<v Speaker 2>it's such a huge show and loom so large for
<v Speaker 2>any fan of the time, UK, US, wherever you may
<v Speaker 2>have been that Summer Slam ninety two show. It is
<v Speaker 2>kind of amazing that they pulled it off in that
<v Speaker 2>kind of a stadium at a time when they couldn't
<v Speaker 2>even reliably sell out Madison Square Garden back in the
<v Speaker 2>United States. So we watched that with wonder and I did.
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if you've gotten into this with with
<v Speaker 2>Harvey or any others, but you know, aw being able
<v Speaker 2>to do Wembley twice and they're going to do it
<v Speaker 2>again next year was definitely an eyebrow razer to me
<v Speaker 2>because I would figure that they would still have WW.
<v Speaker 2>You would still have the warm line to Wembley, even
<v Speaker 2>though you know as many times as they've been to
<v Speaker 2>the UK in Summer Slam nineteen ninety two, they've never
<v Speaker 2>gone back there. Do you have any sense of how
<v Speaker 2>AW was able to kind of get themselves into position
<v Speaker 2>with with Wembley Stadium that was such a huge coupe
<v Speaker 2>for them, and I would imagine if WW could, they
<v Speaker 2>would have stopped it.
<v Speaker 4>I think with Wembley it's a difficult stadium to run
<v Speaker 4>because of the weather, you know, so it's an open
<v Speaker 4>air stadium and certainly you know it's a different Wembley
<v Speaker 4>now than it was in ninety two. Minds you know
<v Speaker 4>they knocked it down and rebuilt it, but it's an
<v Speaker 4>open air stadium and the British weather is unpredictable, and right, Vince,
<v Speaker 4>certainly when he was in Church, isn't a big fan
<v Speaker 4>of unpredictable. And actually in the it's in the book.
<v Speaker 4>They actually secretly and I didn't realize this until I
<v Speaker 4>was researching the book, had the next day booked as
<v Speaker 4>well in case it rained, even though it's August time,
<v Speaker 4>peak of British summer. I can assure you that does
<v Speaker 4>not matter. It can rain and it does.
<v Speaker 3>Isn't it ironic that a guy like you said, Vince
<v Speaker 3>like he needs predictability, but here's a guy who is
<v Speaker 3>known for his unpredictable nature and changing his mind all
<v Speaker 3>the time.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, the irony isn't it is?
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely? Is it hilarious?
<v Speaker 4>But they did have, like I say, the next day booked.
<v Speaker 4>And that's actually why it was shown on tape delay
<v Speaker 4>rather than than air in live is because not just
<v Speaker 4>because of the time difference that that wasn't a huge concern.
<v Speaker 4>It was in case they had to do it the
<v Speaker 4>next day, you know. They they were worried about that,
<v Speaker 4>the potential of the rain. But as for a w
<v Speaker 4>I mean there's I don't think w is overly concerned
<v Speaker 4>because there's other stadiums over here that they can run,
<v Speaker 4>and some of them, quite frankly, are probably better. Like
<v Speaker 4>there's there's another one in London called the Tottenham Hotspurs Stadium,
<v Speaker 4>which is a brand new stadium. It's where it's where
<v Speaker 4>all your big sort of stars will now go and perform,
<v Speaker 4>sure sometimes ahead of Wembley, partly because it's a little
<v Speaker 4>bit cheaper to run as well, but it's just a better,
<v Speaker 4>more modern stadium. And we also need to remember that
<v Speaker 4>Tony kan is the own's Fulham Football clubs, right, which
<v Speaker 4>is based in London, and so he has connections Wembley
<v Speaker 4>is I believe it's owned by the Football Association over here,
<v Speaker 4>so he's got going to have connections via that route,
<v Speaker 4>you know, from in a non wrestling perspective. And plus,
<v Speaker 4>it's like any building, anyone can book it, you just
<v Speaker 4>have to pay the fee, and WWE are not doing that.
<v Speaker 4>WWE are getting paid by cities to run which is
<v Speaker 4>completely different. So I'm Wembley and London are not going
<v Speaker 4>to pay WWE the amount of money that they want
<v Speaker 4>for like a rest in or whatever it might be.
<v Speaker 4>And aw were quite happy to just go, look, we'll
<v Speaker 4>just pay the building fee and and run the run
<v Speaker 4>the show. And obviously it makes them. It's worth it
<v Speaker 4>for a w as a you know, less established identity
<v Speaker 4>to do that because it makes them look good. It's,
<v Speaker 4>you know, it's a perception thing, isn't it. If you
<v Speaker 4>run Wembley Stadium, it's huge And obviously it was huge
<v Speaker 4>for them, so he doesn't really need that anymore, and
<v Speaker 4>it very much would just be giving a nod to
<v Speaker 4>nostalgia for people, you know, fans like me who remember
<v Speaker 4>ninety ninety two, and they don't really care about that,
<v Speaker 4>if I'm honest, they don't. What they care about is
<v Speaker 4>the making money and being paid to do these you know,
<v Speaker 4>big p L shows that they do.
<v Speaker 2>Now, that's definitely a shift, and I wonder, you know,
<v Speaker 2>I remember when they had when they announced the Wembley
<v Speaker 2>Show and they had John Cena go on the ring
<v Speaker 2>at the Money in the Bank Show and tease people
<v Speaker 2>that wrestle Meani would come to Wembley. And then they
<v Speaker 2>took it away from New Orleans because Vegas was willing
<v Speaker 2>to pay up. And now they're going to Saudi because
<v Speaker 2>no one can match that that whatever that check is
<v Speaker 2>going to look like. Do you think we'll ever get out.
<v Speaker 4>Years, Yeah, it will. If not, it'll it'll go to
<v Speaker 4>these other you know, rich nations who are willing to
<v Speaker 4>pay for it for whatever, you know, reasons, political reasons
<v Speaker 4>that they have wanted to do it, and I can't
<v Speaker 4>see it. I think logistically it's quite difficult to do
<v Speaker 4>it over here because you've got to think it's you've
<v Speaker 4>got to get not only the wrestlers, but also the crew,
<v Speaker 4>which obviously they do for twours, but WrestleMania is a
<v Speaker 4>bit different and it's a lot bigger, and then you've got,
<v Speaker 4>you know, all the the other buildings around WrestleMania that
<v Speaker 4>you're gonna need for Rahm SmackDown, and logistically it's quite
<v Speaker 4>tricky I think for them to do that, and I
<v Speaker 4>think London would pay for it, but not the money
<v Speaker 4>that they're looking for. So I'd be shocked if WrestleMania
<v Speaker 4>ever came to London unless they do what I think
<v Speaker 4>they are going to do, which has run multiple WrestleManias
<v Speaker 4>a year. Oh God, WrestleMania Europe, WrestleMania, Saudi WrestleMania US.
<v Speaker 4>You know you're looking forward to that to be surprised me.
<v Speaker 3>Well, honestly, I'm kind of thinking that that that next
<v Speaker 3>year is going to be the last WrestleMania forever and
<v Speaker 3>from now on it's just going to be Saudi Mania.
<v Speaker 4>A good chance. What a business.
<v Speaker 2>So when you when they did that tease with Sina
<v Speaker 2>and money in the bank, where did your head go
<v Speaker 2>to as to where they might do it if they
<v Speaker 2>did bring it to London?
<v Speaker 4>What stadium? Oh? I just thought they were blowing smoke.
<v Speaker 4>I didn't think for a second they were going to
<v Speaker 4>do it. And that's a.
<v Speaker 2>Bad thing to get those people that excited. And then yeah,
<v Speaker 2>that's a bad idea.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, they like to have something at the PLS. Now,
<v Speaker 4>Like if I don't know if I'm sure you guys
<v Speaker 4>have watched the the Unreal series that they did and
<v Speaker 4>and I think Nick can't say something there about you know,
<v Speaker 4>they want something to make it matter. It's something along
<v Speaker 4>those lines. It was the one in Toronto with the
<v Speaker 4>rock and like what can we do to make it memorable?
<v Speaker 4>And all this kind of stuff, and they always want
<v Speaker 4>something like that, some hook, and I think that's just
<v Speaker 4>what that was. It's like, oh, he's John Cena and
<v Speaker 4>announced and he's going to promise you all this stuff
<v Speaker 4>and you know everyone's going to rah rah for John
<v Speaker 4>Cena and wow, brilliant do to me and get some
<v Speaker 4>great headlines.
<v Speaker 2>And but I'm pretty sure it was right after a
<v Speaker 2>w would announced they were going to Wembley that they
<v Speaker 2>did that they were regotten too.
<v Speaker 4>That that was my recollection. That's the game, isn't it.
<v Speaker 4>That's always been the game? Doesn't that used to be
<v Speaker 4>Vince's game and you know Paula vexl learnt very well.
<v Speaker 2>Yes he did in any ways, So it's great to
<v Speaker 2>get that insight in the book Titan Shrinking into you
<v Speaker 2>know what some of the promoter types in the UK
<v Speaker 2>thought about bringing Summer Slam there. We all remember that
<v Speaker 2>show so fondly in the States, let alone to be
<v Speaker 2>to be in England. I mean, where were you at
<v Speaker 2>at the time, James, Were you trying to get in?
<v Speaker 2>Were you too small to even consider going? What was
<v Speaker 2>it like in ninety two?
<v Speaker 4>So in ninety two, I'd have been eight years old
<v Speaker 4>and I was very much super fan. But by the
<v Speaker 4>time I because news traveled slow right back in the day,
<v Speaker 4>and I live quite a long way outside of London
<v Speaker 4>as well, about four hours away from London, so which
<v Speaker 4>I know in the US is nothing, but in the
<v Speaker 4>UK that's about as far as you can get, so right,
<v Speaker 4>you know, it's quite it's quite a distance over here,
<v Speaker 4>and we don't have great well we didn't certainly have
<v Speaker 4>great sort of travel networks then. It was quite difficult
<v Speaker 4>to get to London back then, and because cars weren't
<v Speaker 4>very good either, they'd break down halfway. Struggle so it
<v Speaker 4>was hard. But but no, it was never a really
<v Speaker 4>feasible possibility for me and to go. But in my
<v Speaker 4>in my school, it was all anyone talked about for
<v Speaker 4>about three months, you know, as soon as it was announced,
<v Speaker 4>and it was always are you a breat guy or
<v Speaker 4>are you a bulldog guy? No one cared. No one
<v Speaker 4>cared about macho man and warrior. They didn't care whose
<v Speaker 4>side mister Purfect was on. They didn't care about Camala
<v Speaker 4>and take it, none of it. They it was are
<v Speaker 4>you a breat guy or a bulldog? Yeah?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah that those matches were pretty cold in the States too,
<v Speaker 2>for what it's worth.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well that's that's fair. But you know, it was
<v Speaker 4>like almost like tribal warf. It was kind of like
<v Speaker 4>which side do you want? And in the playground every
<v Speaker 4>lunchtime you'd you'd all wrestle, right, you'd have a bottle
<v Speaker 4>royal on the concrete place ground, which you know was risky,
<v Speaker 4>and there'd big war like not not real walks. We
<v Speaker 4>were eight, but you know, it was there was tension
<v Speaker 4>about like what had happened because everyone at that point,
<v Speaker 4>no one thought it was you know, predetermined or fake
<v Speaker 4>or any of the words that people use now, we
<v Speaker 4>thought it was really this is Brett Verst bulldog And
<v Speaker 4>I remember kind of sided with a bulldog at first
<v Speaker 4>until I've got swayed towards Brett and since then, like
<v Speaker 4>I've Brett's been my my number one guy ever since since. Yes,
<v Speaker 4>I wasn't thrilled at the result.
<v Speaker 2>But that's wild that you got swayed towards Brett as
<v Speaker 2>a brit That that's pretty uh pretty.
<v Speaker 4>It was pretty split man Like. Honestly, it was even
<v Speaker 4>in the building that night, there was a lot of
<v Speaker 4>support for Brett, you know when when you watch it, Yeah,
<v Speaker 4>he gets a great reaction. Brett's so funnily enough, I
<v Speaker 4>was just on, I was gonna bring that up. Go ahead. Yeah,
<v Speaker 4>were with Brett last week with with Kenny with Inside
<v Speaker 4>the Ropes and and he's still like packed houses, so yeah,
<v Speaker 4>packed house and the lines for him are huge and
<v Speaker 4>like he he still has this r about him and
<v Speaker 4>I think one of my one of the writers in
<v Speaker 4>the Inside of the Rope magazine said this about Brett
<v Speaker 4>once is that there was people who were more over
<v Speaker 4>than Brett, but there was nobody who was over like Brett.
<v Speaker 4>And it's over here, that's absolutely and Germany as well,
<v Speaker 4>that's absolutely the case. Brett was huge and people still
<v Speaker 4>worship the guy as a as a hero and yeah,
<v Speaker 4>he's he's very much. He very much was the main
<v Speaker 4>event and he couldn't him and Davy couldn't have been
<v Speaker 4>anything but the main event on that show. That's great.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So Brett has been doing tours. We just came
<v Speaker 2>up offic series of tours you guys where he does,
<v Speaker 2>you know, kind of like these evenings with Brett Hart
<v Speaker 2>that The Inside the Ropes does so well and when
<v Speaker 2>he was out there, you know, just just laying down
<v Speaker 2>the truth as he sees it. A lot of times
<v Speaker 2>it's received as I think more in the States than
<v Speaker 2>in the UK frankly and certainly Canada. He's you know,
<v Speaker 2>Sarah grapes blah blah blah. You see, like you know,
<v Speaker 2>the Twitter army go to work on him on every
<v Speaker 2>comment he makes that's negative towards the current regime. Is
<v Speaker 2>it the flip side in the UK? Are people just
<v Speaker 2>like Rah Rah everything he says negative about WWE? Or
<v Speaker 2>is it similar over there where there's people that that
<v Speaker 2>that that somehow get all worked up when he speaks truth.
<v Speaker 4>And British people don't really get works up about.
<v Speaker 2>Things, to be honest in any case. Yeah, that's a general.
<v Speaker 4>Rule, you know, but certainly not certainly not wrestling things
<v Speaker 4>to laugh, you know, and have fun. And Brett's Brett's misunderstood,
<v Speaker 4>I feel, and I will defend him because you know,
<v Speaker 4>I'm a breck guy. But he's he's not bitter at
<v Speaker 4>all from from talking to him and being at the
<v Speaker 4>shows and things like that, He's not bitter at all.
<v Speaker 4>He he loves his fans, he loves wrestling, he loves
<v Speaker 4>talking about it. He he knows his audience. So he's
<v Speaker 4>very much like Jim Connett. And I don't want to
<v Speaker 4>kill the k fa here, but Jim Connett's one of
<v Speaker 4>the nicest guys I've ever met in wrestling. The wonderful
<v Speaker 4>guy couldn't have been more helpful to me when doing
<v Speaker 4>these books, the first trilogy. And he's always been super supportive,
<v Speaker 4>super help always willing to sort of share anything and
<v Speaker 4>everything that he can remember, you know. And but on
<v Speaker 4>you know, you on YouTube, on his podcast, you'll you'll
<v Speaker 4>bury people because that's what his audience wants, you know.
<v Speaker 4>He's so he plays into it a little bit. Now,
<v Speaker 4>don't get me wrong, I've been chewed out by Jim
<v Speaker 4>Connette as well, and it was great, amazing, this is fantastic,
<v Speaker 4>this is he was so cross. But I'll tell you
<v Speaker 4>what it was. I booked a show and What Culture
<v Speaker 4>show in the US, and Joey Ryan was on it
<v Speaker 4>and Jim Cornette was doing commentary. So you can imagine
<v Speaker 4>there was a combustible element. Jim Cornett was just like,
<v Speaker 4>I'm not I'm not calling his match. I'm not calling
<v Speaker 4>the dick flip. I'm like, well, I don't know what
<v Speaker 4>to tell you, Jim. It's on the card you're in
<v Speaker 4>the booth to do. And I to tell him. I
<v Speaker 4>was like, Joey, you can't do the flip. And He's
<v Speaker 4>like yeah, whatever. He didn't care, you know, but it
<v Speaker 4>was and Jim's just ran this, I'm on this show
<v Speaker 4>with this guy. So well, look, I'm not the one.
<v Speaker 4>I didn't book him. I'm just the I was the booker,
<v Speaker 4>but I wasn't the money.
<v Speaker 2>Good luck finding the person who would raise their head
<v Speaker 2>to say I did with him in the room.
<v Speaker 4>Well, there's no one willing I can tell you. But
<v Speaker 4>but like like Jim, like Brett is like that. He's
<v Speaker 4>very he's really funny, really very Canadian human, like very
<v Speaker 4>dry humors, and he knows what he's doing. Like people
<v Speaker 4>will shout out Goldberg and he'll just be like, oh
<v Speaker 4>that guy, you know, And and he'll always you'll never
<v Speaker 4>call him Goldberg. He always always full names him, always
<v Speaker 4>calls him Bill Goldberg, like it's brilliant, honestly, but he's
<v Speaker 4>doing on purpose. I'm convinced you. And he's like, yeah,
<v Speaker 4>that time Bill Gilbert is now is in the rain? Now,
<v Speaker 4>so Bill Gelbert. It's like, yeah, brilliant, Like keep it going.
<v Speaker 3>For it totally deflates Goldberg when you call him Bill Goldberg.
<v Speaker 3>It makes them like a complete shot, you know.
<v Speaker 4>I think that's probably the point, but it was just so.
<v Speaker 4>But he's so funny, and he's always got like a
<v Speaker 4>smirk and that glint in his eye when he's yes.
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I won't I won't ruin what Brett said
<v Speaker 4>because I'm sure Kenny will put it out on a
<v Speaker 4>video at some point. But he had some interesting comments
<v Speaker 4>about Vince and his relationship with Sean Michaels and where
<v Speaker 4>the nickname Bitoi comes from and things like that. And
<v Speaker 4>and he was saying it all with just like this
<v Speaker 4>wicked glint in his eye. He knew what he was doing.
<v Speaker 4>And he wasn't just like random and Raven and I
<v Speaker 4>hate everything. It was just he was funny and he
<v Speaker 4>was playing for laughs, and I think that's what he's
<v Speaker 4>always doing. To be honest, he's and afterwards said to it, Brett,
<v Speaker 4>I thought you weren't going to bury anyone who's like, oh,
<v Speaker 4>I just got to be honest. You know it's fair enough.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he doesn't want to promise that on the front end.
<v Speaker 2>My impression, I've talked to him a couple of times,
<v Speaker 2>and he doesn't want to like come in like he
<v Speaker 2>doesn't want to be known as someone that every time
<v Speaker 2>you put a mic in firm him, he's gonna go off.
<v Speaker 2>But if he reads the room and thinks that it's
<v Speaker 2>going to like get a pop and he's among friends,
<v Speaker 2>he'll start going every time.
<v Speaker 4>He's a worker, thank you very much.
<v Speaker 2>Now, if Bill Goldberg is something, go ahead, boss, I
<v Speaker 2>just I was just doing, Oh yeah, the dusty.
<v Speaker 4>He's a worker. Everyone's a worker.
<v Speaker 2>The uh so if with Brett, if we're kind of
<v Speaker 2>sure that he does the Bill Goldberg thing on purpose
<v Speaker 2>to Needle. Is it the same thing with the Summer Slam.
<v Speaker 4>And the w CW. Yes, I don't know. I really
<v Speaker 4>wanted to say him, can you please stop calling it?
<v Speaker 4>But it's like because he was saying it was all
<v Speaker 4>a w series, like yeah, when I was in the
<v Speaker 4>w c W. I it's just like Brett, like it's unnecessary,
<v Speaker 4>but you don't need that word.
<v Speaker 1>Wrestling podcast, the wrestling podcast that knows the boys need
<v Speaker 1>their candy. It's the lapsed fan. He's a lapsed fan
<v Speaker 1>wrest with Jack and Jo.
<v Speaker 4>But I don't think I'm the guy to say that
<v Speaker 4>to him. No, No, I don't want to be that guy.
<v Speaker 3>You know.
<v Speaker 2>I actually like that he says it because it's a thing.
<v Speaker 2>But I always wondered if if he keeps doing it
<v Speaker 2>for the reasons he keeps saying Bill.
<v Speaker 4>Next time Kenny brings him over, I will ask the
<v Speaker 4>question on your behalf. I'll pass the heat on you. Yeah, exactly.
<v Speaker 2>You know these assholes from this laps fan? Yeah, someone
<v Speaker 2>else you talked to for the book, James Again. Titan
<v Speaker 2>Shrinking is Brian Knighton, who was wrestled as Axel Rotten
<v Speaker 2>and interesting from him. I mean he uh here of course,
<v Speaker 2>an East Coast wrestling fan, and he remembers Mel Phillips.
<v Speaker 2>And not too long ago we were interviewing a guy
<v Speaker 2>who manages a club we did a live show at
<v Speaker 2>and he grew up Queens, New York fan Garden remembers
<v Speaker 2>Mel Phillips cruising through Queens looking for candidates. Okay, and
<v Speaker 2>and Axel describes something very similar, and that's that's very
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety two as it regards like everything that was
<v Speaker 2>swirling around about WWF, and just as much as the
<v Speaker 2>steroids scrutiny, this one was sort of like the double whammy.
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't just the steroids, it was Mel Phillips and
<v Speaker 2>Terry Garvin and everything else. So I guess as an
<v Speaker 2>entry into that part of the discussion, can you talk
<v Speaker 2>about talking to Brian Knighton who's now passed and yeah,
<v Speaker 2>and that whole part of it.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. So, so Brian reached out to me and I
<v Speaker 4>think it's twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen and asked me
<v Speaker 4>to write his autobiography with him. So he'd he was
<v Speaker 4>aware of the Titan books or however many were out
<v Speaker 4>at that time, and someone had recommended that he speak
<v Speaker 4>to because you wanted to write a book. And I
<v Speaker 4>was like, man, like I don't know, like Axl Rotten's autobiography,
<v Speaker 4>Like I don't what's the story? You know? He was
<v Speaker 4>kind of do we still be for bit? He was
<v Speaker 4>he still be for bid? He didn't. He wasn't like
<v Speaker 4>a big superstar name or anything. I was like, what's
<v Speaker 4>the story. There's nothing I'm not really interested by. I'll
<v Speaker 4>talk to him. And and as soon as I talked
<v Speaker 4>to him, I was like, Wow, this guy might have
<v Speaker 4>the best autobiography of all time, Like he's his real
<v Speaker 4>story was unbelowble, like it was just from like the
<v Speaker 4>stuff he suffered growing up, like his his real human
<v Speaker 4>story rather than his wrestling story was fascinating. And then
<v Speaker 4>then his wrestling story was interesting as well, and I
<v Speaker 4>was just like, man, this guy is unbelievable. And then
<v Speaker 4>obviously started telling me about the mel Phillips stuff, and so,
<v Speaker 4>you know, we started his autobiography and it's it's probably
<v Speaker 4>like the first couple of chapters were done, and I
<v Speaker 4>remember sending him the first chapter and he just cried
<v Speaker 4>like he was just so happy to see like his
<v Speaker 4>his life, like finally on the page is something he'd
<v Speaker 4>always wanted to do. And I think it made him
<v Speaker 4>feel like he mattered and was important and he contributed something,
<v Speaker 4>and you know, and he was so excited for people
<v Speaker 4>to finally learn about his life and hopefully help people,
<v Speaker 4>because the book was gonna be called Wrestling with Heroin
<v Speaker 4>and it was about his addiction and how he'd overcome it,
<v Speaker 4>or so he claimed. And then literally I talked to
<v Speaker 4>him one night and he was he was in a
<v Speaker 4>pretty bad way and he and I still at the
<v Speaker 4>audio from it. It's really it's really rough. Actually, but
<v Speaker 4>obviously we used to record everything for the for the book,
<v Speaker 4>and I said, he's like, oh, man, like, I hope
<v Speaker 4>we get this book done sooner. I was like, yeah,
<v Speaker 4>you know, maybe a couple of months. He's like, oh,
<v Speaker 4>it's something like, I hope I'm still alive. I was like,
<v Speaker 4>be alive in four months and he's like, I may
<v Speaker 4>I be aliveing in four days? And then four days
<v Speaker 4>later I got a text from from doctor Tom and said,
<v Speaker 4>have you heard about Brian? And and yeah, he obviously died,
<v Speaker 4>So that was pretty Yeah, it was it was weird,
<v Speaker 4>you know, it was weird. And quite distressing at the time,
<v Speaker 4>but it was like, man, it's a shame, like obviously
<v Speaker 4>I can't you know, it's a shame for him, not
<v Speaker 4>for me, Like it was a shame for him that
<v Speaker 4>that we couldn't finish this book and to get his story.
<v Speaker 4>It was something you wanted to do so much, and
<v Speaker 4>as it's such a shame of waste all that stuff
<v Speaker 4>because he wanted people to know it. And when I
<v Speaker 4>started around this book, I was like, man, I could
<v Speaker 4>probably use some of that stuff he said in here,
<v Speaker 4>because it I know he'd want that. You know, I
<v Speaker 4>knew him well enough by that point to know that
<v Speaker 4>he'd want that. And I did sort of wrestle with
<v Speaker 4>it a little bit myself because it was like, well,
<v Speaker 4>and I kind of profited on a guy who's passed away,
<v Speaker 4>you know, and it's it's a bit of a murky area,
<v Speaker 4>I felt. But but I thought, no, he wanted people
<v Speaker 4>to know that story, like he specifically wanted it out there,
<v Speaker 4>and so I'll put it in there as almost a
<v Speaker 4>tribute to him, which is, you know, what he's mentioned
<v Speaker 4>in the acknowledgements and such. But yeah, it was a
<v Speaker 4>like he was really upset when he when he was
<v Speaker 4>telling that story, it was obviously very like harrowing and
<v Speaker 4>for him to sort of relive it and what he
<v Speaker 4>was telling me about, you know, him going there with
<v Speaker 4>his friends and melt taking an interest in him real quick,
<v Speaker 4>and then you know, rest've seen him wrestling all these
<v Speaker 4>kids and all that kind of thing. And and Brian
<v Speaker 4>was pretty sure with that people knew what was going on.
<v Speaker 4>And I think it's become quite clear that people suspected
<v Speaker 4>what was going on. But it's you know, I've been
<v Speaker 4>in wrestling lockerrow. I used to be a wrestler in
<v Speaker 4>the UK for ten years, so like, I've been around
<v Speaker 4>a lot of locker rooms, and I think it's it's
<v Speaker 4>a little bit unfair to blame the boys for not
<v Speaker 4>doing anything about it, because you don't really know what's
<v Speaker 4>going on in people's business. You know, you don't know
<v Speaker 4>who's doing what likes, something dodgy going on, maybe those
<v Speaker 4>kids are related to now you know, you don't know
<v Speaker 4>really and and it's not your place. What can you
<v Speaker 4>do in his office? You lose your job because you
<v Speaker 4>bring that up. It's it's very difficult morally, I think,
<v Speaker 4>to know what to do. And I think it'd be
<v Speaker 4>very different now, but back then I think it was.
<v Speaker 4>It was quite difficult for the body, and I think
<v Speaker 4>it's kind of outside out of mind. It's not our problem, you.
<v Speaker 2>Know, Yeah, did anything strike you going through all that?
<v Speaker 4>James?
<v Speaker 2>How the WWF handled it at the time, you know
<v Speaker 2>how it I don't say they got away with it,
<v Speaker 2>because they took a ton of heat in the meat
<v Speaker 2>and there was damage that was done as a result
<v Speaker 2>of that. But you know, really it's hard to point
<v Speaker 2>to any particular bit of accountability. Of course, Tom Cole
<v Speaker 2>ended up coming back to work for them as part
<v Speaker 2>of a settlement. But you took the time to sort
<v Speaker 2>of revisit the chronology blow by blow as part of
<v Speaker 2>Titan Shrinking. What's your takeaway.
<v Speaker 4>It was? I think it was really important to do
<v Speaker 4>that because there's so much happened in an incredible I
<v Speaker 4>didn't realize either, Like I knew about all the stories,
<v Speaker 4>but until I started researching the book, I didn't realize
<v Speaker 4>just how close together a lot of that stuff was.
<v Speaker 4>You kind of had the WBF launching on TV, and
<v Speaker 4>you had WrestleMania, and then in between that you had
<v Speaker 4>all of this stuff going on all of this scandal.
<v Speaker 4>There was sex scandals, numerous sex scandals as it was,
<v Speaker 4>you know, the storoid scandals. And then there was Hulk
<v Speaker 4>Cohen's cocaine scandal, which was all over the UK tabloid papers.
<v Speaker 4>I don't know if it made it to the US.
<v Speaker 2>Really, can you tell? Can you make a quick detour
<v Speaker 2>and tell us about that one?
<v Speaker 4>It was? It was basically a story that Whole Cogan
<v Speaker 4>was a coke addict and he'd been caught, you know,
<v Speaker 4>taking cocaine with some some high rolling party or something
<v Speaker 4>I think it was. And you know, it was just
<v Speaker 4>one of those things that we asked them. I think
<v Speaker 4>it was a Harvey about Harvey Goldsmith about it or
<v Speaker 4>one of the PR guys about it, like, you know,
<v Speaker 4>we're worried about that, like the table, because the British
<v Speaker 4>tabloids back certainly back then and the Tories for anything,
<v Speaker 4>they love to destroy heroes. And it was like, right, well,
<v Speaker 4>let's go after this Americans and wrestling now we don't
<v Speaker 4>like this, so we're going to go for them. And
<v Speaker 4>and it was like Whole Cogan cocaine shame and all
<v Speaker 4>this kind of thing, and and they were like wrestling
<v Speaker 4>was so big that no one cared. Nobody cared. Most
<v Speaker 4>of the audience was kids. They didn't read the papers.
<v Speaker 4>The adults didn't seem to be overly bothered. They just
<v Speaker 4>sort of celebrity scandal gossip and just dismissed it and
<v Speaker 4>it and it kind of blew away, Like ironically, it
<v Speaker 4>blew away. It just disappeared, and it was it was
<v Speaker 4>just one of many. But that's that's kind of the point.
<v Speaker 4>There was just so many that it was almost like
<v Speaker 4>this deluge of press and it's like it's this story
<v Speaker 4>about this and this, and these lawsuits here and there,
<v Speaker 4>and you know, it's like, man, there's just so much.
<v Speaker 4>And I think for for most people, most fans and
<v Speaker 4>most followers of wrestling, it's very difficult to have a
<v Speaker 4>coherent timeline of what happened during that period because, like
<v Speaker 4>I say, it was condensed into like a month or two,
<v Speaker 4>it was really close together. It was like Vince was
<v Speaker 4>sort of fighting fires every single day. You know. It
<v Speaker 4>was you'd go from Arsenio Hall who, then you'd have
<v Speaker 4>the rumble, and then you'd have Sid trying to leave
<v Speaker 4>but then to stay, and then you know, the I
<v Speaker 4>think it was a drug busting. I think it was
<v Speaker 4>certain Leuis.
<v Speaker 2>Saint Louis, Yeah, it was, yeah.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, the drug was said jack Lands are kind of
<v Speaker 4>been made aware. I think it was, and you know,
<v Speaker 4>there was a there was a bunch of stuff like that,
<v Speaker 4>and it was it's important, I think, to get a
<v Speaker 4>coherent timeline for this and make it make sense and
<v Speaker 4>make it clear. And as I was revisiting it, I
<v Speaker 4>realized that quite incredibly, I think no one cared about
<v Speaker 4>the sex scandal outside of the sort of shock TV
<v Speaker 4>shows you know you Donna Hugh and Geraldo Rivera I
<v Speaker 4>think were too, and no one else cared. No one
<v Speaker 4>else cared. It was just no there was one more.
<v Speaker 4>There was one more that Vince was on with with
<v Speaker 4>Bruno as well, but Larry King, Larry King, that's right, yeah,
<v Speaker 4>Larry King. And outside of that, like, no one really
<v Speaker 4>picked up on it, and the FEDS didn't care at all.
<v Speaker 4>And the reason that's and that's in the book what's
<v Speaker 4>really highlighted. And there was some really work, great work
<v Speaker 4>done on this by Dave Bixon span So i'ven cover
<v Speaker 4>some of this stuff, but what really struck me was
<v Speaker 4>they went after mel Phillips, the FEDS, but not to
<v Speaker 4>arrest him and put him in jail, which is what
<v Speaker 4>they should have done. There's no doubt about it that
<v Speaker 4>he was guilty. They've got video evidence the FBI of
<v Speaker 4>mel Phillips being guilty, but they dismissed it as it's
<v Speaker 4>not enough evidence. Like this, this footage of you know,
<v Speaker 4>this grown man tickling a kid's feet and wrestling with him.
<v Speaker 4>It's like and various other you know, very questionable and
<v Speaker 4>obviously sexual things that were going on. They dismissed it
<v Speaker 4>as not enough evidence. And the reason for that is
<v Speaker 4>they were trying to build a case against Vince. They
<v Speaker 4>absolutely wanted to nail somebody, and Vince was the man
<v Speaker 4>that they were going to nail, and they went to
<v Speaker 4>mel Phillips to try and get him to testify against
<v Speaker 4>the WF and Vince because they wanted someone on the
<v Speaker 4>WWF side, as they saw it, like on the wrestling side,
<v Speaker 4>to be on their side to go against the WF.
<v Speaker 4>And they they knew that WF were paying everybody's lawyers,
<v Speaker 4>like all of the talent, and that they'd already been
<v Speaker 4>you know, they'd already been made to be on side
<v Speaker 4>of the degree and that included people who weren't there anymore,
<v Speaker 4>like you, like you, Rick Rude, and guys like that.
<v Speaker 4>You know. It was they wanted somebody who could go
<v Speaker 4>against that, because they knew the wrestling fraternity would, even
<v Speaker 4>if they were at odds with each other, would stick
<v Speaker 4>together against this. And Mel Phillips was going to be
<v Speaker 4>almost one of their smoking guns. They were going to
<v Speaker 4>try and get him to testify and agree with what
<v Speaker 4>they were saying about Vince and corroborate it. And they
<v Speaker 4>went to visit him and he wasn't there, and then
<v Speaker 4>they just left it. They didn't bother going back. They said,
<v Speaker 4>he's not a priority. You know, we've got no interest
<v Speaker 4>in pursuing him unless you can have used his leverage
<v Speaker 4>against Vincent, because it's collapsed. So the entire investigation into
<v Speaker 4>Phillips collapsed and the child sex abuse allegations were completely abandoned.
<v Speaker 4>And I think it's a disgrace, really, and it's a
<v Speaker 4>real failure of the legal system that that was the case,
<v Speaker 4>This obsession with let's take down Vince, you know, which,
<v Speaker 4>you know, you guys money, taxpayer money, right and maybe
<v Speaker 4>not you guys at the time, but you know, yeah,
<v Speaker 4>for sure, cost people money and because of this obsession
<v Speaker 4>with we've passed this new law, let's nail somebody, and
<v Speaker 4>they failed because they completely misread the room. And yeah,
<v Speaker 4>it was and you guys know a lot about obviously
<v Speaker 4>the trial itself, but I think it's it's pretty bad.
<v Speaker 4>It's pretty bad what used to what went on back then.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's to bring it back to hul Cogan, you know,
<v Speaker 2>because we're looking so closely at his whole life and times,
<v Speaker 2>I mean, having already covered this whole saga. You know,
<v Speaker 2>it's so telling to me that when Hulk was due
<v Speaker 2>to testify in George of Horrian's trial, which of course
<v Speaker 2>came three years before Vince's, that the media was excited.
<v Speaker 2>They were covering this thing as a story of national interest,
<v Speaker 2>that hul Cogan is going to testify in this doctor
<v Speaker 2>steroid trial. And when Jerry McDevitt got Hogan out of testifying,
<v Speaker 2>you couldn't unless you lived in Pennsylvania, where the trial
<v Speaker 2>took place, You're not gonna find coverage.
<v Speaker 4>Uh.
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there were a couple of national networks that
<v Speaker 2>did cover him being convicted, but the fact that Piper
<v Speaker 2>was was testifying didn't matter. Anybody the fact that Warrior
<v Speaker 2>Warrior was in the ninety four to one, but the
<v Speaker 2>fact that Billy Graham took the stand this big of
<v Speaker 2>a star as he was all those years. No one
<v Speaker 2>cared Martel Blair, the others who came up. It was James.
<v Speaker 2>It was about Hulk Cogan. That's I mean, just as
<v Speaker 2>much as they wanted Vince, they wanted the star power
<v Speaker 2>of Hulk Hogan to justify it is newsworthy and worth
<v Speaker 2>investing resources and covering.
<v Speaker 4>Hulk Hogan's the draw and Hull Cogan gets the eyes.
<v Speaker 4>It's just like wrestling the car rooms. Just like wrestling,
<v Speaker 4>you know, you want the draw to get the media
<v Speaker 4>and the eyeballs on it and then tell the world
<v Speaker 4>about it. And if it's just you know, fed's go
<v Speaker 4>after owner of wrestling promotion. Who cares? You know, at
<v Speaker 4>that time, people wouldn't have really bad an eyeland. It's like,
<v Speaker 4>oh yeah, restless taking stereos of course. Yeah. Like it's
<v Speaker 4>Hull Cogan though, and it's like the superhero and he's
<v Speaker 4>larger than life and he's genuinely mainstream a popical strike
<v Speaker 4>on it. When he's involved, people take notice. It's like,
<v Speaker 4>oh man, this guy is he's been lying to everyone
<v Speaker 4>and and then all of a sudden. People do love
<v Speaker 4>a good bandwagon jump, you know, it's and they love
<v Speaker 4>to tear someone down when they when they reach a peak.
<v Speaker 4>So Hogan was a was a perfect candidate for that.
<v Speaker 4>But but obviously Hogan hadn't done anything in terms of
<v Speaker 4>you know, legality. He just he just took them, you know.
<v Speaker 4>But Vince they thought was distributing them, or they were
<v Speaker 4>trying to prove obviously that he was distributing them and such.
<v Speaker 4>So it was it was difficult to pin anything on Hulk.
<v Speaker 4>I think he was just kind of used really, But
<v Speaker 4>obviously he kind of got out of it, didn't he
<v Speaker 4>having to testify because of and Piper was furious about that. Yeah, yeah,
<v Speaker 4>there's a Horient trial. Yeah. Pipe was furious about that one.
<v Speaker 4>Because this is in the book as well. And this
<v Speaker 4>was something I uncovered when I was researching this that
<v Speaker 4>I didn't realize was Piper was always described in anything
<v Speaker 4>like cart transcripts and things that I'd read as like
<v Speaker 4>almost incoherent and almost as if he was drunk right
<v Speaker 4>when he was in the Zaharian trial. The reason for
<v Speaker 4>that is I don't know if you guys have heard
<v Speaker 4>this one. But the reason for that is, yeah, wrestled
<v Speaker 4>Undertaker on a house show and he intentionally when when
<v Speaker 4>Taker did the tombstone on him, I think he was
<v Speaker 4>on the outside and lowered himself so his head legitimately
<v Speaker 4>smashed into the concrete. Hogan did the same thing.
<v Speaker 2>Man, the Undertaker was putting people's head through the mat
<v Speaker 2>without intending to all through nanty one.
<v Speaker 4>Well, Hogan's was a little bit further away, I would suggest,
<v Speaker 4>but yeah, Pie, Piper legitimately had got himself knocked silly,
<v Speaker 4>give himself a concussion so he could be coherent. It's like, man,
<v Speaker 4>just cafe bit, you know, don't do that. But yeah,
<v Speaker 4>it was. It was. And Pipe's furious. He's like, well,
<v Speaker 4>you know, I'm as big a star as Hogan. Well,
<v Speaker 4>I mean you're not, but you know, I guess what
<v Speaker 4>you're saying, you know. And he was curious that he's
<v Speaker 4>he had to go on this trial and Hogan go
<v Speaker 4>out of it, And yeah, I mean it's uh, it's something,
<v Speaker 4>isn't it what you can do when you've got a
<v Speaker 4>powerful layet.
<v Speaker 2>Does that sound like Piper? Do you jp?
<v Speaker 3>It sounds I mean listen the guy like the guy
<v Speaker 3>would compare himself to the Hull cogin and listen, there's
<v Speaker 3>no doubt about it, you know, in eighty five eighty
<v Speaker 3>forty five he is he is easily on par with
<v Speaker 3>Hull Cogan as being the equivalent bad guy. But come on, dude,
<v Speaker 3>after that, you're nothing compared to Hogan. I'm sorry, You're done.
<v Speaker 3>You can't. You cannot, you cannot, you cannot possibly possibly
<v Speaker 3>compare yourself. There's nobody except for Steve Austin and the
<v Speaker 3>Rock who can compare themselves to Hull Cogan. It's just
<v Speaker 3>not possible. It's ridiculous. Sorry, Roddy, go fuck yourself.
<v Speaker 2>It's pretty amazing that that Roddy you know, would have
<v Speaker 2>ex WWF to exert the legal resources to come up with,
<v Speaker 2>you know, a reason. Of course, the reason is under seal,
<v Speaker 2>never to be revealed again, that they convinced the judge
<v Speaker 2>that Hulk Cogan would be harmed more than he would
<v Speaker 2>help the prosecution's case if he testified. Yet Piper could
<v Speaker 2>have made the same exact argument on the differences, they
<v Speaker 2>didn't have the WWF's homepaid attorney to make that argument
<v Speaker 2>on his behalf which is so incredible because Hulk's the
<v Speaker 2>one who turns around and goes to w CW and
<v Speaker 2>leaves Vincent the lurch in his trial, and by the
<v Speaker 2>time Vince's trout comes along, Piper's working for them. In
<v Speaker 2>the ninety four King of the Ring main event. That's
<v Speaker 2>rest iron.
<v Speaker 4>It's the whole situation as part of the New Generation,
<v Speaker 4>no doubt. Well, yeah, quite the New Generation may invent
<v Speaker 4>that one, wasn't it. It was the responsibility really for
<v Speaker 4>Hogan being dragged into that was was the Harian's lawyer.
<v Speaker 4>So there's this really flamboyant lawyer, you know. He was
<v Speaker 4>like a three piece suit and cowboy boots kind of guy,
<v Speaker 4>you know, and he was he was very much like
<v Speaker 4>a wrestling Carnie promoter. This he's called William Costopolis, and
<v Speaker 4>he loved Spotlight. He loved the spotlight. He thought he
<v Speaker 4>was on Ali mc biale or something, you know, when
<v Speaker 4>he was in and he was so he would just
<v Speaker 4>kind of downplays the orions role and just be like, oh, yeah,
<v Speaker 4>every one of the wf's using them rather on the
<v Speaker 4>mother don't participate obviously, referring to the steroids. And that
<v Speaker 4>was when the reporters pounced in like USA Today ran
<v Speaker 4>a front page, so like Hulk book from a bottle,
<v Speaker 4>I think it was. And and that's when Jerry McDevitt
<v Speaker 4>got on the phone, this the federal judge in the case,
<v Speaker 4>which is William Judge William Caldwell, and was just like,
<v Speaker 4>look like the government just wanted there for media attention,
<v Speaker 4>Like it's going to really hurt his career, it's going
<v Speaker 4>to be injurious to his career. And Jerry McDevitt has
<v Speaker 4>a lot of sway, I think it's safe to say,
<v Speaker 4>especially right, and he obviously got his way and Hogan
<v Speaker 4>was excused, and I know Phil Mushnick was furious about it.
<v Speaker 4>I think he says on the on the Vin Stuck
<v Speaker 4>as well, but he was furious at the time. And
<v Speaker 4>it was just like, well, why how do you get
<v Speaker 4>dismissed from testifying? It might hurt you tell the truth.
<v Speaker 4>It's like, well, he raises an interest in a probably
<v Speaker 4>good point, probably good point.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he said that in the Dark Side episode as
<v Speaker 2>well about the trial, And yeah, I think that one
<v Speaker 2>comes down to, as far as I can discern, that
<v Speaker 2>they were able to convince the judge that anything haul
<v Speaker 2>Cogan's going to get there and tell you about Zihorian.
<v Speaker 2>You already have established as as a point of fact,
<v Speaker 2>and so at that point all you're doing is is
<v Speaker 2>kind of carding him out, knowing that you can already
<v Speaker 2>make all the points his testimony would make. It's not
<v Speaker 2>like he was unique in his association with George and
<v Speaker 2>Horian among wrestlers. And there's probably some other things. I mean,
<v Speaker 2>there's clearly there was clearly indications and a lot of
<v Speaker 2>the filings and stuff we looked at and the contemporaneous
<v Speaker 2>reporting that they also made some kind of case that
<v Speaker 2>forcing Halt to talk about his doctor patient relationship with
<v Speaker 2>George and the Horian would reveal some things medically about
<v Speaker 2>hul Cogan that would be something that would be an
<v Speaker 2>jurious to him for the public to know.
<v Speaker 4>So who knows what that is.
<v Speaker 3>But I've had my mind maybe maybe maybe because it
<v Speaker 3>might have exposed that the size of Terry blays Penis
<v Speaker 3>and hul Cogan's were actually the same size.
<v Speaker 2>It did come up in a court of law in
<v Speaker 2>the future.
<v Speaker 4>You're right about that.
<v Speaker 2>Really, it did become a question of a lot at
<v Speaker 2>some point. So James just tell us Hogan. I mean,
<v Speaker 2>this is such a weird time for him. But you
<v Speaker 2>spent a lot of time in the book talking about
<v Speaker 2>how he became the star as well on the salad
<v Speaker 2>days for him coming going through it systematically like this,
<v Speaker 2>But your anything surprised you to conclude about Hogan that
<v Speaker 2>you didn't really appreciate on the front end.
<v Speaker 4>I think it's really surprising how just how much his
<v Speaker 4>relationship with Vince collapsed after a senior hall that really
<v Speaker 4>really it's been very injurious to his career. That was,
<v Speaker 4>you know, and and obviously people are aware of it
<v Speaker 4>and what he said, and I don't think they're aware
<v Speaker 4>of what Vince's stunts, and that was, which was very
<v Speaker 4>much like don't don't say anything, like don't don't deny it,
<v Speaker 4>like it's going to be obvious. They're going to see
<v Speaker 4>through that if you have to. He didn't want him
<v Speaker 4>to do it at all, obviously, But Horgan was very
<v Speaker 4>I think it's fair to say, ego centric. And Horgan
<v Speaker 4>knew that his name was getting dragged through the mud,
<v Speaker 4>and unlike Vince, he wasn't willing to just let it
<v Speaker 4>slide off. And and kind of hope it goes away.
<v Speaker 4>At first he wanted to defend himself, and I get that,
<v Speaker 4>but there's a way to defend yourself and there's a
<v Speaker 4>way not to defend yourself. And what Hogan did was
<v Speaker 4>obviously not the way to defend yourself and it was
<v Speaker 4>a foolish move, and I know obviously Vince was furious.
<v Speaker 4>And then it immediately stirred the horness nest because everybody
<v Speaker 4>then who had a vendeta against Vince so against Hogan,
<v Speaker 4>you know, your Brunos and Billy Grahames and such, were like, Nope,
<v Speaker 4>we're not standing for this. Yeah, this guy's a liar
<v Speaker 4>and we're not. It's And for whatever reason, they decided
<v Speaker 4>that that was the the thing to take him down with,
<v Speaker 4>and they did, you know, and and Vince and Hogan
<v Speaker 4>really drifted apart, and I think there was this What
<v Speaker 4>was really interesting was there was this a roast for Vince.
<v Speaker 4>I think it was his birthday. It was sort of
<v Speaker 4>a combination of his birthday and a celebration of how
<v Speaker 4>long he'd been in the business, which Linda had organized
<v Speaker 4>secretly for him, and he had a load of guests
<v Speaker 4>speakers there, including some people who had left and including
<v Speaker 4>Jesse Ventura who was suing him at the time, and
<v Speaker 4>even he had enough respect for Vince to see him,
<v Speaker 4>you know, to see businesses business and go, no, I'll
<v Speaker 4>be there. And Jesse was there, like I've got the
<v Speaker 4>invitation actually and without the list of all the speakers
<v Speaker 4>on and who's going to be there, and Hogan was
<v Speaker 4>one of them. And like I said, Jesse was there.
<v Speaker 4>And there's other people, some guys who weren't in WF
<v Speaker 4>at the time, some comedians things like that as well.
<v Speaker 4>And Hogan went to the event, but he didn't get
<v Speaker 4>up and speak and give his you know, glowing abute
<v Speaker 4>or you know, whatever it was supposed to be. And
<v Speaker 4>then mean Jane was wandering around with the microphone just
<v Speaker 4>kind of getting comments from from other people or the
<v Speaker 4>wrestlers who were there, and he went to Hogan, and
<v Speaker 4>Hogan just waved him away, wouldn't they anything. It's like
<v Speaker 4>he's the guy who's been with Vince for the last
<v Speaker 4>you know, eight years, and they've made millions together, they've
<v Speaker 4>conquered the world together, they've they've gone global together, and
<v Speaker 4>they were Vince and Hogan like Hogan was Vince's number
<v Speaker 4>two really really in many ways, you know, it was
<v Speaker 4>it was a partnership. One couldn't have existed without the
<v Speaker 4>other that were symbiotic. And then you have this sort
<v Speaker 4>of complete collapse of this relationship of you know, this
<v Speaker 4>power couple, I guess, and they just really weren't working
<v Speaker 4>well together at that point. We're barely speaking and and
<v Speaker 4>I think Vince knew that Hogan was a lightning rod
<v Speaker 4>for controversy. He needs to he couldn't rely on him anymore.
<v Speaker 4>I think that's what Assenia Hall had proven to him,
<v Speaker 4>that he can't trust Hogan, and that's why, you know,
<v Speaker 4>they did the Survivor series switch and they kind of
<v Speaker 4>devaluing him a little bit by having him get beat
<v Speaker 4>a little bit more. And then the Rumble thing the
<v Speaker 4>way that was booked, which it's actually the reason SID
<v Speaker 4>tried to quit at Royal Rumble ninety two, so, which
<v Speaker 4>is such a ridiculous and very SID story. But the
<v Speaker 4>whole Hogan elimination thing and the way it played out
<v Speaker 4>and Hogan then complaining backstage about it and crying about
<v Speaker 4>and kicking off with you know, bout the way it's
<v Speaker 4>been booked was obviously some political you know, to and
<v Speaker 4>and thrown between Vince and Hogan. It was a power
<v Speaker 4>play between the two of them, and Sid just saw
<v Speaker 4>it and was like, I'm not getting involved in this
<v Speaker 4>ship like I'm He's like, thanks Vince, by m out
<v Speaker 4>of here, like this is I don't I'm not being involved.
<v Speaker 4>This is ridiculous. And I don't know why it bothered
<v Speaker 4>him so much. But obviously he's working with Hogan, I guess,
<v Speaker 4>so he's he just want to be part of some game,
<v Speaker 4>and Vince convinced it must stay, you know, through through
<v Speaker 4>to the WrestleMania and then the European Tour. But and
<v Speaker 4>then it fell apart as it did. But yeah, it's
<v Speaker 4>quite interesting that there was all these games going on,
<v Speaker 4>and you know, but even despite that, Vince still wouldn't
<v Speaker 4>let Rick Flair beat Hogan because he didn't see it
<v Speaker 4>as Flair beat in Hogan. He saw it as Rick
<v Speaker 4>Flair and w c W beating the WF. So because
<v Speaker 4>he's a contradiction, isn't he Vince. He's so he's it's
<v Speaker 4>all this crazy stuff going on in Vince's head and
<v Speaker 4>he doesn't He's like, oh, maybe I will go with Hogan. No,
<v Speaker 4>actually I hate Hogan. And then we'll do this interview
<v Speaker 4>that the two of them did, and there's some really
<v Speaker 4>interesting stuff in there where Hogan talks as Terry bowlea
<v Speaker 4>very briefly in there, and and Vince kind of forces
<v Speaker 4>him into retirement, which Hogan was like, oh, it's news
<v Speaker 4>to me, you know.
<v Speaker 2>Thank you for the memories, thank you for the inspiration,
<v Speaker 2>and thank you for whole comania.
<v Speaker 4>We all remember it. Thank you.
<v Speaker 2>Terry had to say wrapping up with James Dixon again
<v Speaker 2>that the book is Titan Shrinking, part of his Titan
<v Speaker 2>series that you want to check out Boss anything else
<v Speaker 2>for James.
<v Speaker 3>No, I just I love, you know, we know so
<v Speaker 3>much about this this time period, and I love just
<v Speaker 3>learning these these some little details that I just I
<v Speaker 3>don't think if we talked about it, it was so
<v Speaker 3>many years ago, but just kind of even talking about
<v Speaker 3>the relationship just kind of disintegrating, like there's just some
<v Speaker 3>some details in there that, uh, again I don't I
<v Speaker 3>don't think I knew, or if I knew, I'd forgotten
<v Speaker 3>by now. And so it was a nice reminder. So
<v Speaker 3>I think that's just absolutely phenomenal. Though those little those
<v Speaker 3>little tibets of information to me are are everything, and
<v Speaker 3>they just paint such a better picture of the whole story.
<v Speaker 4>So well done, Thank you man. I mean that's for
<v Speaker 4>me with these books, like you say, I love this
<v Speaker 4>information is out there in some form or of the
<v Speaker 4>it's about bringing it together and trying to make it
<v Speaker 4>coherent and trying to make a nice amen tie. You
<v Speaker 4>know how about that. It's it's a tricky right. You
<v Speaker 4>guys know this as well as as well as any
<v Speaker 4>And it's about letting people be able to understand what
<v Speaker 4>happened and making sense of all the legal talk and
<v Speaker 4>all the you know, the drug talk and all the
<v Speaker 4>scandals and newspaper reports and things like that. And and
<v Speaker 4>for me, it's very much about the minutia. You know,
<v Speaker 4>everyone knows the big overall story, but what's what's the
<v Speaker 4>small details, the little things that fill in the blanks
<v Speaker 4>of the things that don't make sense from what's already
<v Speaker 4>out there, like the reason Sid left, and there's a
<v Speaker 4>lot of I won't go into it, but there's a
<v Speaker 4>lot of different stories. Sid's version, the WF version, and
<v Speaker 4>the Meltter's version. And then when you sort of piece
<v Speaker 4>it all together and look at logically and figure out
<v Speaker 4>as a proper timeline. You you actually see what really
<v Speaker 4>happened and go, ah, that's what happened. And then you
<v Speaker 4>speak to a few people and fill in the blanks
<v Speaker 4>on things and and they're for me, the important part.
<v Speaker 4>So my favorite part of the book. And again I
<v Speaker 4>won't go into too which did I don't ruin it,
<v Speaker 4>but the nails and Vince story is probably the most
<v Speaker 4>fun I had right in the book, as you can imagine,
<v Speaker 4>you know, it's it's quite a fun story and story anyway,
<v Speaker 4>and there's so much, so much bullshit out there about
<v Speaker 4>that story. That everybody was there, you know, everybody was there,
<v Speaker 4>like Woodstock, everybody, and they all saw it. They were
<v Speaker 4>all in the room, right, Oh yeah, I was the
<v Speaker 4>one in the room who pulled nails off? Is that
<v Speaker 4>that you weren't You weren't even booked on the show,
<v Speaker 4>you know, So, Jim Brunzell, what you're talking about? You know? Whoever?
<v Speaker 4>You know, I might be just burying poor Gym there.
<v Speaker 4>But you know, there's a bunch of people who claim
<v Speaker 4>they were there, who weren't there, and some people who were,
<v Speaker 4>and some people have different perspectives or they've told it
<v Speaker 4>so many times that they remember it as that, but
<v Speaker 4>it's not what happened. And I talked to so many
<v Speaker 4>people and and read and watched so much stuff about
<v Speaker 4>that to finally piece it together. And then when it
<v Speaker 4>all came together, its suddenly all of it made sense,
<v Speaker 4>like from step to step to start to finish, and
<v Speaker 4>it's like that's the real satisfaction of writing these books
<v Speaker 4>is being able to finally sort of unearth these little
<v Speaker 4>things that the little tiny snippets that make it go
<v Speaker 4>from well, okay, all right, I get it now, I
<v Speaker 4>get what's going on here. And that's what I'm hoping
<v Speaker 4>to do because, like I said, there's a million shoots,
<v Speaker 4>and you know, we've got you know, podcasts like you
<v Speaker 4>guys who go into so much stuff, and there's you know,
<v Speaker 4>wrestler podcasts now and we documentaries and you know, live
<v Speaker 4>toos and everything, books and everything. But it's about piecing
<v Speaker 4>all that stuff together and making it, you know, one
<v Speaker 4>coherent story that people can follow. So that's that's the
<v Speaker 4>fun part of it.
<v Speaker 2>Doing the work. It's TLF approved, Ladies and Gentlemen, Titan Shrinking.
<v Speaker 2>Check that out and the rest of the Titan series.
<v Speaker 2>Friend of the show, Thanks so much for being here.
<v Speaker 2>James appreciate it.
<v Speaker 4>Thank you guys. Been an absolute pleasure anytime