3 Body Problem: a deep dive into the Netflix show

1
00:00:05,005 --> 00:00:06,135
- Physics world.

2
00:00:06,585 --> 00:00:08,975
Hello and welcome to the
Physics World Stories podcast.

3
00:00:09,555 --> 00:00:11,415
I'm Andrew Gluster. And in this episode,

4
00:00:11,545 --> 00:00:13,455
we're gonna be exploring the science

5
00:00:13,795 --> 00:00:16,895
behind the Netflix series
three Body Problem.

6
00:00:17,435 --> 00:00:20,495
The American Science Fiction
Television series is created

7
00:00:20,875 --> 00:00:24,135
by David Benioff, DB
Weiss and Alexander Wu,

8
00:00:24,355 --> 00:00:27,415
and it is based on the Hugo
Award-winning Chinese novel,

9
00:00:27,715 --> 00:00:30,215
the Three Body Problem by Li Sing,

10
00:00:30,285 --> 00:00:31,815
that if you haven't seen the series,

11
00:00:31,815 --> 00:00:33,815
there will be some minor spoilers.

12
00:00:34,095 --> 00:00:37,055
I do recommend watching
the series, so if you want

13
00:00:37,055 --> 00:00:40,175
to go away and watch, maybe you
only need to watch the first

14
00:00:40,995 --> 00:00:42,215
two or three episodes

15
00:00:42,215 --> 00:00:44,775
before he can come back to listen to this.

16
00:00:45,185 --> 00:00:46,775
Later in the podcast we'll hear

17
00:00:47,075 --> 00:00:50,135
how scientists in today's
world are considering

18
00:00:50,355 --> 00:00:52,335
how we might communicate with aliens.

19
00:00:52,875 --> 00:00:54,935
And we'll hear much more from this man.

20
00:00:55,085 --> 00:00:58,815
Matthew Kenzie, the science
advisor for the Netflix series.

21
00:00:59,035 --> 00:01:02,295
The Three Body Problem takes
its name from something

22
00:01:02,805 --> 00:01:04,415
from the world of physics

23
00:01:04,875 --> 00:01:07,335
- In the same way that in
our solar system, we sort

24
00:01:07,335 --> 00:01:09,655
of have the sun and Jupiter
as our two body system,

25
00:01:10,075 --> 00:01:11,415
and then the earth is a third body,

26
00:01:11,415 --> 00:01:13,815
but it doesn't really exert
any influence on the sun

27
00:01:13,835 --> 00:01:15,455
or Jupiter 'cause it's too small,

28
00:01:16,045 --> 00:01:17,415
it's not, not massive enough.

29
00:01:17,635 --> 00:01:19,295
Uh, and so it's then just a sort

30
00:01:19,295 --> 00:01:21,695
of a little particle
traveling through the,

31
00:01:21,695 --> 00:01:23,895
the gravitational field
of the other two bodies.

32
00:01:23,955 --> 00:01:26,855
And so I think that's the,
the parallel being drawn in,

33
00:01:27,075 --> 00:01:28,655
in the three body problem is there are,

34
00:01:28,655 --> 00:01:30,935
there are three suns,
three stars in this system,

35
00:01:31,435 --> 00:01:34,925
and the planet is then just a
little point, uh, that wanders

36
00:01:34,925 --> 00:01:36,685
through their gravitation of field.

37
00:01:37,385 --> 00:01:38,605
Um, but

38
00:01:38,605 --> 00:01:41,485
because there are three bodies,
that system is not stable.

39
00:01:41,675 --> 00:01:44,685
It's in a chaotic di dynamic orbit.

40
00:01:45,345 --> 00:01:48,085
Um, so I mean, if we, if we talk about

41
00:01:48,085 --> 00:01:51,485
what the three body problem
is generally, um, you know,

42
00:01:51,505 --> 00:01:54,925
it refers to any system in
which you have three objects,

43
00:01:55,055 --> 00:01:57,565
three bodies, which are
all exerting a significant

44
00:01:57,565 --> 00:01:59,245
gravitational force on each other.

45
00:01:59,945 --> 00:02:03,645
Now, if you have two bodies,
um, they have some center

46
00:02:03,705 --> 00:02:06,925
of mass point, so they have
some, some minimum, right,

47
00:02:06,925 --> 00:02:08,045
some stable position

48
00:02:08,075 --> 00:02:11,365
because they're then just
orating, uh, orbiting

49
00:02:11,365 --> 00:02:12,925
around their, their center of mass.

50
00:02:13,265 --> 00:02:16,045
In the three body states, you don't have

51
00:02:16,275 --> 00:02:17,445
that same stability.

52
00:02:18,265 --> 00:02:21,285
And so you can, you know,
write down the forces on all

53
00:02:21,285 --> 00:02:23,325
of these bodies, but then
you can't actually solve

54
00:02:23,325 --> 00:02:24,565
their equations of motion.

55
00:02:25,465 --> 00:02:27,405
Um, and what you want to do

56
00:02:27,405 --> 00:02:29,565
as a physicist is write down basically

57
00:02:29,725 --> 00:02:31,005
the equation of motion for things.

58
00:02:31,025 --> 00:02:33,885
It tells you that where they will be, uh,

59
00:02:34,095 --> 00:02:38,645
after a, a given amount of
time, um, so you can sort

60
00:02:38,645 --> 00:02:40,365
of simulate that in
the three body problem.

61
00:02:41,025 --> 00:02:42,685
Um, you can write these things down,

62
00:02:42,745 --> 00:02:45,205
but you, you generally don't know, uh,

63
00:02:45,255 --> 00:02:47,765
where they will be at some future time

64
00:02:47,765 --> 00:02:50,525
because orbits are chaotic
and hard to predict.

65
00:02:51,385 --> 00:02:53,965
Um, so, you know, the, the
analogy is like the weather,

66
00:02:54,105 --> 00:02:57,125
that's a many body
system, uh, of these kind

67
00:02:57,125 --> 00:02:59,165
of different clouds
and structures, kind of

68
00:02:59,165 --> 00:03:00,885
that exerting influence on each other.

69
00:03:01,505 --> 00:03:05,005
Um, but trying to predict
their behavior is, uh,

70
00:03:05,005 --> 00:03:07,805
impossible on a, on a
sort of particle level

71
00:03:07,905 --> 00:03:09,765
or individual body level.

72
00:03:10,275 --> 00:03:11,725
Yeah. So that, that, that's

73
00:03:11,725 --> 00:03:13,365
what the three body problem refers to.

74
00:03:13,545 --> 00:03:16,685
And that means that this
system, you know, is in a,

75
00:03:16,765 --> 00:03:18,125
a kind of chaotic orbit.

76
00:03:18,185 --> 00:03:20,965
And I guess if you run that
forever, eventually it will end

77
00:03:20,965 --> 00:03:22,645
with one of the bodies being ejected

78
00:03:23,185 --> 00:03:25,085
or two of those bodies colliding.

79
00:03:25,425 --> 00:03:27,885
And if you live on a planet
which is in that system,

80
00:03:27,885 --> 00:03:30,245
that's obviously not very, not very good.

81
00:03:30,345 --> 00:03:32,485
And I, I guess if you're an
advanced enough civilization,

82
00:03:32,545 --> 00:03:33,925
you would have to figure out a way

83
00:03:33,925 --> 00:03:35,045
of getting off that planet.

84
00:03:35,805 --> 00:03:37,405
- Jennifer Willett is a science writer

85
00:03:37,865 --> 00:03:40,725
and a staff writer at
AZ Technica in the US

86
00:03:41,235 --> 00:03:42,525
several years ago now.

87
00:03:42,665 --> 00:03:44,565
She wrote a review of the books

88
00:03:44,785 --> 00:03:47,485
of the Three Body Problem
four Physics World,

89
00:03:47,625 --> 00:03:49,525
and has now watched the series on Netflix.

90
00:03:49,825 --> 00:03:51,085
- The guys who did Game of Thrones,

91
00:03:51,085 --> 00:03:52,565
David Benioff and David Weiss.

92
00:03:52,705 --> 00:03:54,165
You know, were adapting it.

93
00:03:54,265 --> 00:03:57,405
And so I, I know people got
very upset at the finale,

94
00:03:57,405 --> 00:03:59,045
the last couple seasons
of Game of Thrones,

95
00:03:59,045 --> 00:04:01,125
and you know, there's some
legit criticisms there.

96
00:04:01,505 --> 00:04:04,205
But what the Davids are
good at is taking a really

97
00:04:04,525 --> 00:04:07,845
sprawling, complex novel with
multi-layers and adapting it.

98
00:04:07,845 --> 00:04:09,405
And especially those big powerful,

99
00:04:10,025 --> 00:04:11,885
you know, showcase scenes.

100
00:04:11,885 --> 00:04:13,645
They're wonderful at
bringing those to life.

101
00:04:13,705 --> 00:04:16,285
And I thought all of that
was very, very evident, uh,

102
00:04:16,345 --> 00:04:17,525
in this, um,

103
00:04:17,645 --> 00:04:19,965
I thought it was generally a
very, very good adaptation.

104
00:04:20,435 --> 00:04:22,405
It's a different medium,
so you're not going

105
00:04:22,405 --> 00:04:24,885
to get the same depth you're going

106
00:04:24,885 --> 00:04:26,445
to get in a novel, and
I don't expect that.

107
00:04:26,945 --> 00:04:29,325
But I thought as terms of
just sheer entertainment goes,

108
00:04:29,405 --> 00:04:31,325
I thought that the, uh,
the show was fantastic.

109
00:04:31,505 --> 00:04:33,285
It was really, really well done. But

110
00:04:33,285 --> 00:04:34,805
- What was it that you
liked about the book?

111
00:04:35,105 --> 00:04:37,765
- You know, it was such an
unusual, first of all, I mean,

112
00:04:37,765 --> 00:04:39,605
most of us, you know, Westerners,

113
00:04:40,515 --> 00:04:42,045
what was unusual about the book is

114
00:04:42,045 --> 00:04:43,165
that it was purely Chinese

115
00:04:43,345 --> 00:04:44,845
and it, it, it is just like Chinese

116
00:04:44,845 --> 00:04:46,045
culture past and present.

117
00:04:46,045 --> 00:04:49,685
It was, there was a history,
uh, element, um, back into,

118
00:04:49,785 --> 00:04:52,085
you know, that we don't know
a lot about in terms of,

119
00:04:52,085 --> 00:04:54,005
most Americans don't know specifically,

120
00:04:54,025 --> 00:04:57,405
or even Ritz know a lot
about Chinese history, uh,

121
00:04:57,405 --> 00:04:59,445
particularly during that era, um,

122
00:04:59,775 --> 00:05:01,405
where you had those struggle sessions

123
00:05:01,625 --> 00:05:05,795
and, you know, Einstein was
considered, you know, uh, evil

124
00:05:05,855 --> 00:05:07,355
and off limits, and it was blasphemous.

125
00:05:07,935 --> 00:05:09,555
Um, we don't know much about that.

126
00:05:09,655 --> 00:05:11,475
We don't know much about modern China.

127
00:05:12,175 --> 00:05:14,835
So to have this, this
wonderful, sprawling,

128
00:05:14,835 --> 00:05:18,675
epic scope novel set
entirely in China, it it,

129
00:05:18,775 --> 00:05:20,555
and it, it wasn't even translated

130
00:05:20,605 --> 00:05:21,995
until like seven years later

131
00:05:22,695 --> 00:05:24,715
and it became this global sensation.

132
00:05:24,715 --> 00:05:25,795
And that's very unusual.

133
00:05:25,975 --> 00:05:28,835
And so I think the Chinese were
rightly very proud <laugh>,

134
00:05:29,255 --> 00:05:30,955
but what made it work was the,

135
00:05:31,055 --> 00:05:32,435
was the characters and the people.

136
00:05:32,535 --> 00:05:34,635
You had a wonderful murder mystery,

137
00:05:35,255 --> 00:05:37,835
and it was narratively
constructed in a way

138
00:05:37,835 --> 00:05:39,875
that there were lots of
little flashbacks and things.

139
00:05:39,895 --> 00:05:41,875
So it slowly unfolded what was going on.

140
00:05:42,495 --> 00:05:47,115
Um, it had wonderful scientific characters

141
00:05:47,115 --> 00:05:48,675
that I thought were really well drawn

142
00:05:48,855 --> 00:05:51,715
and were believable that they
seemed like the scientists

143
00:05:51,715 --> 00:05:53,395
that you and I would
know and interact with.

144
00:05:53,395 --> 00:05:54,515
And that's not always the case.

145
00:05:54,755 --> 00:05:56,515
<laugh>, a lot of times
fictional scientists are

146
00:05:56,915 --> 00:05:58,525
fictional scientists, <laugh>.

147
00:05:59,145 --> 00:06:01,445
So I mean, it had a lot, so
much going for it in terms

148
00:06:01,445 --> 00:06:04,485
of character development,
narrative structure, any kind

149
00:06:04,485 --> 00:06:06,085
of mystery element is wonderful.

150
00:06:06,225 --> 00:06:10,045
And then this crazy
twist at the very end of

151
00:06:10,045 --> 00:06:12,485
what was actually going
on, um, that, you know,

152
00:06:12,485 --> 00:06:13,685
this was an alien invasion

153
00:06:13,825 --> 00:06:16,485
and that this young woman who had grown up

154
00:06:16,485 --> 00:06:18,165
during the cultural revolution revolution

155
00:06:18,165 --> 00:06:20,165
and become embittered from
all, from all the trauma,

156
00:06:20,925 --> 00:06:23,725
actually invited them
<laugh> to take over earth.

157
00:06:24,265 --> 00:06:26,085
You know, that's just incredible. And

158
00:06:26,085 --> 00:06:29,645
- There's a different set of
characters in the TV series.

159
00:06:29,645 --> 00:06:31,405
Right. Did they work
for you as well? Yeah,

160
00:06:31,445 --> 00:06:32,645
- I know there's some criticism.

161
00:06:33,125 --> 00:06:36,005
I think, uh, for the, they
made a conscious choice

162
00:06:36,145 --> 00:06:38,925
to expand the scope beyond
China for the novel.

163
00:06:39,185 --> 00:06:42,525
And I think some Chinese
people were angry about that.

164
00:06:42,665 --> 00:06:44,125
And then I, I get it.

165
00:06:44,385 --> 00:06:47,045
Uh, I get why this is, you know,

166
00:06:47,045 --> 00:06:49,365
this novel is such an
unusual source of pride

167
00:06:49,505 --> 00:06:51,045
and to have it be adapted

168
00:06:51,045 --> 00:06:54,085
and have it be suddenly
westernized, I get it.

169
00:06:54,545 --> 00:06:57,405
Um, but also an alien
invasion is global in scope.

170
00:06:57,665 --> 00:07:02,565
And that was sort of the, uh,
the, uh, rationale, I think

171
00:07:02,825 --> 00:07:04,085
behind expanding it.

172
00:07:04,585 --> 00:07:06,245
And, you know, they combined characters,

173
00:07:06,245 --> 00:07:07,605
they gender swapped some characters

174
00:07:07,605 --> 00:07:09,125
and some, I think worked
better than others.

175
00:07:09,785 --> 00:07:12,445
Um, but in general I thought
they did a pretty good job.

176
00:07:12,605 --> 00:07:13,925
I mean, the actors were fantastic.

177
00:07:14,625 --> 00:07:19,045
Um, things that the Davids
aren't good at is, uh, coming up

178
00:07:19,045 --> 00:07:21,205
with their own, uh, storyline.

179
00:07:21,205 --> 00:07:22,685
They, they can come up
with a broad storyline,

180
00:07:22,685 --> 00:07:24,925
but they're not great at
developing characters on their own.

181
00:07:25,195 --> 00:07:26,725
They're great at broad strokes,

182
00:07:26,785 --> 00:07:29,925
and they're great at taking
complicated material and, and,

183
00:07:30,225 --> 00:07:33,285
and, uh, boiling it down and
synthesizing it for television.

184
00:07:33,285 --> 00:07:34,405
They're fantastic at that.

185
00:07:34,795 --> 00:07:37,765
They're less good at
letting a scene unfold,

186
00:07:37,765 --> 00:07:39,765
letting characters breathe, get, you know,

187
00:07:39,765 --> 00:07:42,045
getting those like beats
that just don't seem

188
00:07:42,045 --> 00:07:44,005
to move the plot forward, but
they're there for a reason.

189
00:07:44,005 --> 00:07:46,845
They're there to kind of
enrich the, uh, the story.

190
00:07:47,825 --> 00:07:49,385
I thought they did a much better job

191
00:07:49,815 --> 00:07:51,505
with three body problem
than they did in the latter

192
00:07:51,505 --> 00:07:53,185
seasons of Game of Thrones on that. Yeah,

193
00:07:53,265 --> 00:07:55,025
- I it's an interesting
one though, isn't it?

194
00:07:55,025 --> 00:07:58,705
Because I'm a, you know,
a I think the, the series

195
00:07:58,705 --> 00:08:00,625
that I would've really loved to see

196
00:08:01,225 --> 00:08:04,145
wouldn't have been very popular,
which would be a <laugh>

197
00:08:05,005 --> 00:08:07,145
really hard, almost.

198
00:08:07,145 --> 00:08:10,025
Essentially, the books turned
into the, into the series

199
00:08:10,025 --> 00:08:11,625
with much more character development,

200
00:08:11,625 --> 00:08:13,225
much more of that side of things.

201
00:08:13,225 --> 00:08:15,425
And they, it's, it's
really good television.

202
00:08:16,415 --> 00:08:17,985
It's not as good storytelling.

203
00:08:18,365 --> 00:08:22,625
And there's moments where
the story is the thing

204
00:08:22,625 --> 00:08:25,905
that kept me going when I was
just feeling a little bit like

205
00:08:25,945 --> 00:08:29,195
I was watching, you know, just
another piece of television

206
00:08:29,195 --> 00:08:32,395
that was being made with
that five minutes at the end

207
00:08:32,395 --> 00:08:34,475
where everything happens
and make keeps you going

208
00:08:34,495 --> 00:08:36,875
for the next, um, the next season.

209
00:08:36,935 --> 00:08:39,475
But that's a, it's a
minor criticism really.

210
00:08:39,715 --> 00:08:41,275
'cause I did really like it, but I just,

211
00:08:41,435 --> 00:08:44,595
I would really like it if we
could have television series,

212
00:08:44,595 --> 00:08:48,995
which did, you know, we've
got so much streaming now,

213
00:08:49,445 --> 00:08:52,395
can't we have some real hard sci-fi really

214
00:08:52,945 --> 00:08:55,925
intense conversations,
character development

215
00:08:56,265 --> 00:08:57,365
of no cliffhangers.

216
00:08:58,045 --> 00:09:00,285
- I do think that there
is some element of that.

217
00:09:00,525 --> 00:09:02,885
I mean, by the fifth
episode, they have worked

218
00:09:02,885 --> 00:09:05,845
through the events in the, in
the Three Body problem novel.

219
00:09:06,665 --> 00:09:08,845
Um, they had time, you know,

220
00:09:08,845 --> 00:09:10,005
to develop that a little bit more.

221
00:09:10,005 --> 00:09:13,085
They, the last three episodes
are taken from portions.

222
00:09:13,085 --> 00:09:14,125
There are, are accept

223
00:09:14,125 --> 00:09:16,085
or accepted from the
last couple of novels,

224
00:09:16,285 --> 00:09:18,155
specifically the third, uh,

225
00:09:18,155 --> 00:09:19,795
which jumps around in times a lot.

226
00:09:20,375 --> 00:09:22,075
So they're clearly setting
up a second season.

227
00:09:22,175 --> 00:09:24,435
But I felt that they
did have time, you know,

228
00:09:24,535 --> 00:09:26,315
if they had wanted to
take a little more time.

229
00:09:26,745 --> 00:09:29,195
They don't really explain
a lot of the science,

230
00:09:29,475 --> 00:09:31,595
although they do a great job,
I think summarizing the three

231
00:09:31,875 --> 00:09:33,275
body problem for a general audience.

232
00:09:34,255 --> 00:09:38,595
Um, and it is, I don't know

233
00:09:38,595 --> 00:09:40,115
what it's like if you
haven't read the novel.

234
00:09:40,315 --> 00:09:41,515
I mean, I had reread the novel

235
00:09:41,515 --> 00:09:44,795
before I watched the show, so I mean,

236
00:09:45,315 --> 00:09:46,995
anything I'm filling
in to a certain extent.

237
00:09:47,615 --> 00:09:49,035
But the thing I worked,

238
00:09:49,315 --> 00:09:51,115
I thought worked best were the big scenes.

239
00:09:51,655 --> 00:09:53,715
Um, I thought the VR
scenes were really good,

240
00:09:54,255 --> 00:09:57,355
and I thought that, uh,
oh my God, the scene

241
00:09:57,355 --> 00:10:00,075
with the nano fibers cutting
through the ship, which, um,

242
00:10:01,135 --> 00:10:02,715
really was horrifying in the book

243
00:10:02,715 --> 00:10:04,315
and really super horrifying.

244
00:10:04,315 --> 00:10:05,755
And because when it's visualized

245
00:10:05,775 --> 00:10:09,155
and you realize just how
awful it is, um, so awful

246
00:10:09,265 --> 00:10:11,595
that the woman who designed
it ends up using them as

247
00:10:11,595 --> 00:10:14,355
for water filtration to
like assuage in third world

248
00:10:14,635 --> 00:10:16,235
countries to assuage your conscience.

249
00:10:17,415 --> 00:10:19,195
But, uh, you know, so things like

250
00:10:19,195 --> 00:10:20,395
that I thought worked very, very well.

251
00:10:20,395 --> 00:10:24,475
But I agree with you that
they tend to rush the Davids,

252
00:10:24,475 --> 00:10:27,515
they tend to wanna like move
the story forward all the time

253
00:10:27,935 --> 00:10:29,355
and not have those beats.

254
00:10:29,355 --> 00:10:31,395
And I think that that's
what you're missing.

255
00:10:31,535 --> 00:10:33,595
And maybe you and I might
want different beats,

256
00:10:34,495 --> 00:10:37,515
but you might have wanted
more time on the science.

257
00:10:37,615 --> 00:10:39,995
You might have wanted more time
with, uh, you know, a couple

258
00:10:39,995 --> 00:10:41,635
of characters or, or something.

259
00:10:41,655 --> 00:10:43,715
But letting it unfold slowly,

260
00:10:44,195 --> 00:10:45,795
a slow burn is actually really good.

261
00:10:45,855 --> 00:10:47,795
And you, there are some
series out there that do

262
00:10:47,795 --> 00:10:49,475
that successfully, but the

263
00:10:49,475 --> 00:10:50,795
Davids are not among them <laugh>.

264
00:10:50,905 --> 00:10:52,275
- Yeah, yeah, no, completely.

265
00:10:52,675 --> 00:10:56,155
I mean, I, there's, there's
certain film directors

266
00:10:56,155 --> 00:10:58,395
that I'd like to have seen
get, I mean, de Vil nerve,

267
00:10:58,415 --> 00:10:59,435
I'd like to see making this

268
00:10:59,435 --> 00:11:00,515
kind of thing. I think
that would be really

269
00:11:00,715 --> 00:11:01,715
- Interesting.

270
00:11:01,715 --> 00:11:02,515
He's very good at those beats. That

271
00:11:02,705 --> 00:11:05,835
- Opening scene is so
incredibly hard hitting, right.

272
00:11:05,865 --> 00:11:08,275
That is just extraordinary.

273
00:11:08,275 --> 00:11:09,715
And if you don't know the history

274
00:11:10,015 --> 00:11:11,955
and then you find out that that sort

275
00:11:11,955 --> 00:11:13,715
of thing is real, you know, that's

276
00:11:14,275 --> 00:11:15,275
- Struggle session.

277
00:11:15,275 --> 00:11:17,595
- Yeah. Probably one of the
most real things in the series.

278
00:11:17,655 --> 00:11:20,755
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that
is incredibly powerful.

279
00:11:21,735 --> 00:11:24,395
And I found myself wanting more

280
00:11:24,935 --> 00:11:26,835
of that sort of thing.

281
00:11:27,305 --> 00:11:30,075
It's not quite enough of the
China thing for me, I think.

282
00:11:30,685 --> 00:11:31,875
- Right. And that was, again,

283
00:11:31,985 --> 00:11:33,875
what I loved most about the book was just

284
00:11:33,895 --> 00:11:36,915
how deeply it delved into
that era of Chinese history.

285
00:11:36,935 --> 00:11:38,755
And you kind of need to
understand those things

286
00:11:38,775 --> 00:11:40,435
to understand her character.

287
00:11:41,295 --> 00:11:43,995
You know, why she does what
she does is directly tied

288
00:11:44,015 --> 00:11:46,475
to the trauma of watching her
father get beaten to death

289
00:11:46,475 --> 00:11:48,515
for being a physicist
who won't deny Einstein.

290
00:11:48,695 --> 00:11:53,035
Mm-Hmm. So, and that's a scary thing.

291
00:11:53,225 --> 00:11:54,645
And it, it would be traumatizing.

292
00:11:54,945 --> 00:11:59,285
And, you know, again, it's, it's,

293
00:11:59,285 --> 00:12:01,765
it's shortened in the, in the tv

294
00:12:02,225 --> 00:12:03,685
and there's good reasons to do that.

295
00:12:03,795 --> 00:12:06,805
It's not a novel, but you could
have had a few more beats,

296
00:12:06,805 --> 00:12:07,965
you could have spent a
little more time there.

297
00:12:08,465 --> 00:12:11,845
Um, because you have to
understand why she did

298
00:12:11,845 --> 00:12:14,205
what she did in order to see her

299
00:12:14,205 --> 00:12:16,525
as even a remotely
sympathetic character. Mm-Hmm.

300
00:12:16,715 --> 00:12:19,645
- Yeah, absolutely. Do
you think, um, you know,

301
00:12:19,705 --> 00:12:22,165
in all science writing that
you do, all the explorations

302
00:12:22,165 --> 00:12:24,965
that you're doing, do you
feel like that sort of

303
00:12:25,645 --> 00:12:28,365
dangerous politicization
of science is something

304
00:12:28,365 --> 00:12:30,165
that is real today in the world?

305
00:12:31,495 --> 00:12:36,305
- Well, I live in the us
so yes, <laugh>, it's, um,

306
00:12:36,955 --> 00:12:38,505
everything is political now.

307
00:12:38,745 --> 00:12:42,785
I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's,
it's quite distressing and,

308
00:12:42,885 --> 00:12:45,345
and, you know, discouraging
to, to see that, you know,

309
00:12:46,245 --> 00:12:51,015
people are, you know, people
put, it's, it's become,

310
00:12:51,165 --> 00:12:52,735
it's political ization.

311
00:12:53,055 --> 00:12:55,855
Partisanship has gotten so
bad in the US that basically

312
00:12:57,135 --> 00:12:59,055
anything that even, you know,
you can politicize anything.

313
00:12:59,055 --> 00:13:02,535
You can politicize a Tesla
truck, <laugh> or car.

314
00:13:02,715 --> 00:13:04,375
You can politicize climate change.

315
00:13:04,795 --> 00:13:07,135
You can politicize vaccines,
you can politicize.

316
00:13:07,755 --> 00:13:10,095
So far they haven't managed
to really politicize physics,

317
00:13:10,195 --> 00:13:11,815
but it could be coming, you know,

318
00:13:11,815 --> 00:13:14,255
they politicized biology and evolution.

319
00:13:14,255 --> 00:13:17,655
They politicized genetics,
IVF all these things

320
00:13:17,725 --> 00:13:20,815
that should be wonderful
advances to human progress.

321
00:13:21,395 --> 00:13:24,315
Um, so, and,

322
00:13:24,315 --> 00:13:26,155
and people's, people's worldviews are just

323
00:13:26,155 --> 00:13:29,195
so colored at this point by
their politics that it's,

324
00:13:29,265 --> 00:13:30,275
it's very distressing.

325
00:13:30,685 --> 00:13:33,515
- Thankfully, we're somewhere
away from the beating

326
00:13:33,735 --> 00:13:37,195
of scientists on stage as
part of a political struggle.

327
00:13:37,495 --> 00:13:40,755
But clearly there are some
issues still where science

328
00:13:40,815 --> 00:13:42,075
and politics collide.

329
00:13:42,425 --> 00:13:44,515
Returning to the science
of the three body problem,

330
00:13:45,115 --> 00:13:47,035
I wondered what Jennifer Ette thought

331
00:13:47,255 --> 00:13:48,915
of the concept in the novel

332
00:13:49,335 --> 00:13:52,475
and the TV series of Sentient Protons.

333
00:13:52,895 --> 00:13:54,475
- Oh, the Soans, yes.

334
00:13:54,595 --> 00:13:56,555
I mean, that's of course the
thing that's purely fictional,

335
00:13:56,555 --> 00:13:59,875
but I loved how they
took the, this idea from,

336
00:13:59,875 --> 00:14:01,715
of extra dimensions, from string theory

337
00:14:01,935 --> 00:14:04,595
and then designed, you know, what an

338
00:14:04,595 --> 00:14:05,595
what an ingenious concept.

339
00:14:06,105 --> 00:14:08,595
It's completely impossible
based on our current science,

340
00:14:08,815 --> 00:14:11,155
but that's what science fiction is for,

341
00:14:11,375 --> 00:14:13,635
to make you dream about
what might be possible.

342
00:14:13,855 --> 00:14:16,675
And oh my God, it was
just wonderful to see it.

343
00:14:16,735 --> 00:14:18,275
And they had to, they
did it in the VR game,

344
00:14:18,275 --> 00:14:20,475
which was perfect because
you could then visualize it

345
00:14:20,475 --> 00:14:24,275
beautifully, you know, see it,
the computer like spread out

346
00:14:24,275 --> 00:14:25,795
and all those dimensions and etched

347
00:14:25,795 --> 00:14:28,715
and then boiled back down once
it was like sentient into a

348
00:14:28,715 --> 00:14:30,315
little, into a little proton again.

349
00:14:30,815 --> 00:14:33,555
Um, I think that's the most genius aspect,

350
00:14:33,555 --> 00:14:36,035
scientific aspect, sci-fi
aspect of the novel.

351
00:14:36,095 --> 00:14:37,675
And I really thought that
they handled it well,

352
00:14:37,985 --> 00:14:41,115
because that's a very hard
thing to convey to an audience

353
00:14:41,135 --> 00:14:43,435
who might not be, not, might
not anything about strength

354
00:14:44,385 --> 00:14:45,765
theory or, or some

355
00:14:45,765 --> 00:14:47,965
of these advanced theoretical
physics ideas. Mm-Hmm.

356
00:14:48,005 --> 00:14:50,445
- <affirmative>. Yeah.
And is it, does it work

357
00:14:50,445 --> 00:14:51,915
for you consistency wise?

358
00:14:52,015 --> 00:14:54,155
It it works for you as a, as an idea?

359
00:14:55,105 --> 00:14:57,675
- It's, it's, no, I mean,
it's, it's not about that.

360
00:14:57,745 --> 00:14:59,955
It's, it, it works as a good storytelling

361
00:15:00,415 --> 00:15:01,755
device is what it is.

362
00:15:02,415 --> 00:15:03,955
Um, and Tanglement is real,

363
00:15:03,955 --> 00:15:07,075
and Entanglement doesn't quite
work the way it does in the

364
00:15:07,075 --> 00:15:08,355
series, and that's okay.

365
00:15:09,215 --> 00:15:13,075
Um, that's a, there's certain
things when, when I used

366
00:15:13,075 --> 00:15:16,235
to do, uh, organize, uh,
consultations for Hollywood,

367
00:15:16,385 --> 00:15:17,955
there's something that all the directors

368
00:15:17,955 --> 00:15:19,275
and producers call a buy.

369
00:15:19,775 --> 00:15:21,515
You know, there's just
like one thing that this,

370
00:15:21,515 --> 00:15:22,595
you're just gonna buy into that

371
00:15:22,595 --> 00:15:23,875
and that's just gonna
be part of the backdrop.

372
00:15:23,895 --> 00:15:25,195
And sofas is the buy.

373
00:15:25,935 --> 00:15:28,235
You're just going to accept
that this thing exists

374
00:15:28,335 --> 00:15:30,515
and it's capable of doing
what it's capable of doing

375
00:15:30,515 --> 00:15:33,275
because the plot really
does rest on it, you know?

376
00:15:33,735 --> 00:15:36,755
So, no, it does not make
logically consistent sense if you

377
00:15:36,755 --> 00:15:40,805
think too much about
it, you know, but, and,

378
00:15:40,805 --> 00:15:43,285
and it's not really, they don't
spend a ton of time on it,

379
00:15:43,285 --> 00:15:44,445
the series, this might be another place

380
00:15:44,445 --> 00:15:46,285
where they could have developed
that a little bit more,

381
00:15:46,565 --> 00:15:48,325
rather than just rushing
straight to the end.

382
00:15:48,425 --> 00:15:51,005
As, you know, the Davids
like to do <laugh>.

383
00:15:51,345 --> 00:15:53,445
It makes a, a certain
amount of story sense.

384
00:15:53,445 --> 00:15:54,485
It drives the plot forward,

385
00:15:54,505 --> 00:15:59,245
and it gives, it explains
how the aliens can help, can,

386
00:15:59,245 --> 00:16:00,965
can create their hallucinations,
how they can mess

387
00:16:00,965 --> 00:16:02,045
with our physics experiments,

388
00:16:02,045 --> 00:16:04,325
and also how they can spy on
us and know what we're doing.

389
00:16:05,145 --> 00:16:07,765
Um, it also, the entanglement
aspect shows that, you know,

390
00:16:07,885 --> 00:16:10,125
'cause normally a signal would
take like years to get back

391
00:16:10,125 --> 00:16:11,765
and forth 'cause they're 400 years away

392
00:16:11,915 --> 00:16:14,485
- With science being so
key to the storytelling.

393
00:16:14,785 --> 00:16:18,165
In this particular series, I
wanted to find out more about

394
00:16:18,165 --> 00:16:22,765
what a science advisor does
in these big sci-fi series.

395
00:16:23,425 --> 00:16:25,445
Here's Matt McKenzie again.

396
00:16:25,665 --> 00:16:27,405
- I'm an associate professor, uh,

397
00:16:27,545 --> 00:16:29,325
at the University of Cambridge in physics.

398
00:16:29,505 --> 00:16:30,645
I'm a particle physicist.

399
00:16:31,385 --> 00:16:33,285
And I, oh, my team

400
00:16:33,285 --> 00:16:35,285
and I basically, we, we analyze data

401
00:16:35,315 --> 00:16:39,205
that comes from the Large Hadron
Collider, uh, in order to,

402
00:16:39,305 --> 00:16:41,485
you know, try and unpick
some of the secrets

403
00:16:41,485 --> 00:16:42,525
of our universe.

404
00:16:43,795 --> 00:16:44,965
- Have you been part

405
00:16:44,965 --> 00:16:47,285
of unpicking any particular
secrets? <laugh>?

406
00:16:47,945 --> 00:16:49,525
- Um, well, I was in,

407
00:16:49,925 --> 00:16:52,525
involved in the Higgs bows
on discovery as my PhD.

408
00:16:52,835 --> 00:16:56,445
That was more outta fortune
than, uh, particular skill.

409
00:16:56,545 --> 00:16:59,765
But yeah, in the, the second
year of my PhD, I was sent out

410
00:16:59,765 --> 00:17:01,845
to cern, uh, for a couple of years.

411
00:17:01,945 --> 00:17:05,605
And, and in that time made
a discovery that was, yes,

412
00:17:05,605 --> 00:17:07,005
well over 10 years ago now.

413
00:17:07,265 --> 00:17:09,885
Um, and so yeah, now I work on, on sort

414
00:17:09,885 --> 00:17:13,925
of matter anti-matter
asymmetries in, in, um, heavy,

415
00:17:14,295 --> 00:17:18,325
heavy flavor, decays heavy
decay of, uh, of bottom

416
00:17:18,505 --> 00:17:20,285
and, uh, charm meison.

417
00:17:21,025 --> 00:17:22,325
Um, yeah, to try

418
00:17:22,325 --> 00:17:24,325
and understand this, uh,

419
00:17:24,675 --> 00:17:27,845
anti-matter matter asymmetry
problem that we, we seem

420
00:17:27,845 --> 00:17:29,245
to encounter in the universe.

421
00:17:29,545 --> 00:17:31,885
- But you also are the science advisor

422
00:17:32,385 --> 00:17:34,685
for the Netflix series three Body problem.

423
00:17:34,865 --> 00:17:36,405
How did that come about? That's

424
00:17:36,405 --> 00:17:37,405
- Really not my day job.

425
00:17:37,785 --> 00:17:40,365
Um, and um, it came about

426
00:17:40,365 --> 00:17:44,085
through a serendipitous
connection, really, that my, uh,

427
00:17:44,185 --> 00:17:46,045
father worked in the film industry.

428
00:17:46,225 --> 00:17:48,205
He was a, a director of photography,

429
00:17:48,385 --> 00:17:53,005
and he, um, uh, was the
photographer for Game of Thrones,

430
00:17:53,625 --> 00:17:57,525
um, and worked on an, uh, early
series of Game of Thrones.

431
00:17:58,865 --> 00:18:02,645
And so actually during the
time of my PhD, it, it was,

432
00:18:02,725 --> 00:18:05,085
I think I went to visit him on the set

433
00:18:05,085 --> 00:18:06,685
and I met the creators of the show.

434
00:18:06,715 --> 00:18:07,965
They sort of indulged me

435
00:18:07,965 --> 00:18:10,205
for probably about 15
minutes whilst I was sort

436
00:18:10,205 --> 00:18:12,645
of waffling on about
the Higgs boats on, um,

437
00:18:12,985 --> 00:18:16,805
and then, yeah, sort of cut
forward 12 years or something.

438
00:18:16,965 --> 00:18:18,085
I mean, it must be at least that,

439
00:18:18,325 --> 00:18:21,125
'cause my, my dad died in 2012,

440
00:18:21,265 --> 00:18:23,525
so it's been a long time since I had any

441
00:18:23,525 --> 00:18:24,765
contact with the creators.

442
00:18:24,905 --> 00:18:29,045
But they then, uh, I think were
looking for a particle asist

443
00:18:29,045 --> 00:18:31,245
as they were developing
this show to ask a couple

444
00:18:31,245 --> 00:18:33,445
of questions to, and,
and, and remembered me.

445
00:18:33,745 --> 00:18:37,365
And, um, and then they
reached out, um, uh,

446
00:18:37,505 --> 00:18:38,525
and it started like that.

447
00:18:38,525 --> 00:18:40,765
And we had a few emails
back and forth, uh,

448
00:18:40,765 --> 00:18:44,085
and then eventually I was
sort of brought on as a, uh,

449
00:18:44,115 --> 00:18:45,245
advisor for the show.

450
00:18:45,905 --> 00:18:48,285
- So what, what does an advisors
do for a show like this?

451
00:18:48,955 --> 00:18:51,005
- Well, I mean, it was a
real variety of things.

452
00:18:51,025 --> 00:18:54,285
So when I actually started
out, um, it was really

453
00:18:54,285 --> 00:18:56,765
before the scripts had been
written, so it was just a,

454
00:18:57,205 --> 00:19:00,165
a few emails back and forth
with the, uh, the creators.

455
00:19:01,345 --> 00:19:05,345
And then we, um, you
know, I saw some outlines

456
00:19:05,345 --> 00:19:06,665
of the script, so gave some comments.

457
00:19:06,825 --> 00:19:08,865
I then saw early versions of the scripts.

458
00:19:08,865 --> 00:19:11,945
And so it went from sort
of, um, concept stuff

459
00:19:11,945 --> 00:19:13,025
and dialogue stuff.

460
00:19:13,485 --> 00:19:15,585
Um, and then as they
were shooting the show,

461
00:19:15,685 --> 00:19:18,705
it was more kind of practical
stuff with the art department,

462
00:19:18,725 --> 00:19:21,705
the props department, the,
the camera department,

463
00:19:21,745 --> 00:19:23,065
and, you know, visual effects about

464
00:19:23,065 --> 00:19:24,265
how certain things would look.

465
00:19:24,845 --> 00:19:26,585
So sometimes it could be a visual effect

466
00:19:26,645 --> 00:19:29,625
or sometimes it could be
something as simple as what, uh,

467
00:19:30,295 --> 00:19:32,545
what what sort of mug
would be in the background

468
00:19:32,725 --> 00:19:35,545
or, uh, what's on the blackboard
in this, in this room,

469
00:19:35,605 --> 00:19:37,745
all kind of, um, stuff like that.

470
00:19:38,055 --> 00:19:40,385
- Okay. But, but do they
sort of come to you before

471
00:19:40,765 --> 00:19:42,785
and say, okay, we need
some equations on this

472
00:19:42,785 --> 00:19:44,105
blackboard, what should we put on it?

473
00:19:44,125 --> 00:19:47,225
Or do they do something and
then ask you if it's correct?

474
00:19:47,545 --> 00:19:49,785
- N no, most of the sort of calculations

475
00:19:49,805 --> 00:19:52,305
or sciencey bits in it, I, um,

476
00:19:52,745 --> 00:19:54,705
would've had a hand in writing, I guess,

477
00:19:54,705 --> 00:19:57,065
because, you know, I, I
saw such early versions

478
00:19:57,065 --> 00:19:58,345
that I would, you know, I mean,

479
00:19:58,605 --> 00:20:01,705
in the one case she does
this calculation Jupiter

480
00:20:01,765 --> 00:20:04,345
to the earth and Jupiter
to the earth via the sun.

481
00:20:04,805 --> 00:20:07,305
And so that calculation, you
know, I did at some point,

482
00:20:07,805 --> 00:20:09,785
and I was quite actually
pleased to hear that.

483
00:20:09,865 --> 00:20:12,025
I, I think I did a, an
interview with someone

484
00:20:12,085 --> 00:20:14,345
who had actually checked the
calculation and it was right.

485
00:20:15,005 --> 00:20:17,865
So, uh, um, yeah, I was quite pleased

486
00:20:17,865 --> 00:20:19,025
that I hadn't made a mistake

487
00:20:19,565 --> 00:20:24,185
or at least one that that wasn't
spotted, uh, um, that time.

488
00:20:24,485 --> 00:20:25,825
So yeah, I mean, things like that I

489
00:20:25,825 --> 00:20:27,185
would've, I will have advised on.

490
00:20:27,185 --> 00:20:30,785
And then I, I do remember for
example, over a period of a,

491
00:20:30,785 --> 00:20:32,745
of a month or so, taking various pictures

492
00:20:32,745 --> 00:20:36,545
of different people's blackboards,
uh, in their offices, uh,

493
00:20:36,545 --> 00:20:40,185
just to send in as kind of,
you know, an idea of the sorts

494
00:20:40,185 --> 00:20:42,145
of things that are written
up in academic offices,

495
00:20:42,315 --> 00:20:46,105
which in my case is a lot
of jumbled up diagrams

496
00:20:46,105 --> 00:20:48,485
and equations and mostly nonsense. Yeah.

497
00:20:48,665 --> 00:20:50,405
- And I mean, presumably they don't need

498
00:20:50,405 --> 00:20:52,285
to ask you if a scientist would have Star

499
00:20:52,285 --> 00:20:53,325
Wars Lego in the background.

500
00:20:53,445 --> 00:20:55,845
I mean, everyone knows that
that's the case, but <laugh>

501
00:20:56,355 --> 00:20:57,355
- Well, exactly.

502
00:20:57,355 --> 00:20:58,965
I mean, they, I think they did
think there was gonna be some

503
00:20:58,965 --> 00:21:01,725
characteristic giveaways sort
of like, you know, tell us

504
00:21:01,725 --> 00:21:03,885
what a typical physicist
has in their house.

505
00:21:04,555 --> 00:21:07,565
Well, I mean, I dunno, <laugh>, they,

506
00:21:07,565 --> 00:21:09,405
they have some really cool Lego kits

507
00:21:09,405 --> 00:21:11,085
of the different LHC experiments.

508
00:21:11,085 --> 00:21:13,085
Yeah, that's cool. You know,
you, they're sort of custom,

509
00:21:13,415 --> 00:21:14,765
these sort of custom made things,

510
00:21:14,765 --> 00:21:17,405
but you can sort of print
the instructions online

511
00:21:17,505 --> 00:21:20,405
and order the specific
pieces from the, you know,

512
00:21:20,715 --> 00:21:22,205
Lego factory or some supplier

513
00:21:22,225 --> 00:21:25,805
and build a replica of the
Atlas detector and and so on.

514
00:21:26,065 --> 00:21:27,165
- Hey, that's really
- Cool.

515
00:21:27,275 --> 00:21:29,045
Yeah, I don't have one
of those unfortunately.

516
00:21:29,865 --> 00:21:31,485
- No, but I will soon.

517
00:21:31,625 --> 00:21:33,445
Now I know about that
<laugh>. That's good. <laugh>.

518
00:21:34,125 --> 00:21:37,605
- I think something that the
showrunners were asked, um,

519
00:21:37,695 --> 00:21:42,445
early on, um, was how
plausible the characters are.

520
00:21:42,585 --> 00:21:44,645
You know, they're sort of, you know,

521
00:21:44,645 --> 00:21:46,925
should they be portrayed as
these kind, you know, how,

522
00:21:46,985 --> 00:21:48,965
how is, how is a genius portrayed in the,

523
00:21:49,385 --> 00:21:52,325
in the entertainment,
uh, and film industry?

524
00:21:52,985 --> 00:21:55,205
You know, you think of Beautiful
Mind or Goodwill hunting

525
00:21:55,225 --> 00:21:58,885
or something like that, but I
mean, I think the reality is

526
00:21:58,885 --> 00:22:02,525
that most physicists, um, if
they are career physicists,

527
00:22:02,555 --> 00:22:05,445
like Jin and Sola for example,
you know, they have a,

528
00:22:05,445 --> 00:22:07,165
some kind of ability to communicate

529
00:22:07,165 --> 00:22:10,765
because you have to get your
research funded somehow,

530
00:22:10,985 --> 00:22:14,405
and you have to be able to
convince other academics of your,

531
00:22:14,625 --> 00:22:15,925
of your work and what you are doing.

532
00:22:15,985 --> 00:22:18,685
And so you do have a ability, I think,

533
00:22:18,685 --> 00:22:21,045
to collaborate in big teams and, uh,

534
00:22:21,705 --> 00:22:26,165
and, uh, also, uh, communicate
your, your research outcomes

535
00:22:26,545 --> 00:22:27,545
- In those early days.

536
00:22:27,545 --> 00:22:29,125
Is it anything to do with storytelling?

537
00:22:29,185 --> 00:22:32,085
Is it just sort of fact
checking, like, could we get away

538
00:22:32,085 --> 00:22:33,365
with this sort of thing?

539
00:22:33,365 --> 00:22:34,685
Is that the sort of question? Well, I

540
00:22:34,685 --> 00:22:36,405
- Think that, I mean, the
show first is, you know,

541
00:22:36,405 --> 00:22:40,165
it's based on a book, very,
very successful book series.

542
00:22:40,505 --> 00:22:43,165
Um, and so, you know, you
already have some constraints

543
00:22:43,165 --> 00:22:45,725
to go on in particular, the
big picture physics stuff.

544
00:22:46,305 --> 00:22:48,805
Um, you know, there are some
things which are very crucial

545
00:22:48,865 --> 00:22:50,325
to the plot line, and

546
00:22:50,325 --> 00:22:52,765
so you can't avoid having
these scenarios where you need

547
00:22:52,765 --> 00:22:54,365
to think about the science explanation.

548
00:22:55,475 --> 00:22:59,775
And also the book does make
a, a very, um, serious attempt

549
00:22:59,955 --> 00:23:03,575
to explain lots of the science
in, in it, it tries, tries

550
00:23:03,575 --> 00:23:05,255
to, you know, figure out ways

551
00:23:05,255 --> 00:23:06,775
that these phenomena can occur.

552
00:23:07,435 --> 00:23:10,855
Uh, and so you sort of have
a, a basis, uh, in that.

553
00:23:11,555 --> 00:23:13,735
Um, and yeah, so a lot

554
00:23:13,735 --> 00:23:16,335
of the stuff we talked
about really early on, like

555
00:23:16,335 --> 00:23:18,255
that was kind of trying

556
00:23:18,275 --> 00:23:20,495
to find plausible explanations, right?

557
00:23:20,495 --> 00:23:22,135
There's a difference between
something that's real

558
00:23:22,155 --> 00:23:23,935
and plausible and then impossible.

559
00:23:24,475 --> 00:23:25,775
And, you know, you,

560
00:23:25,835 --> 00:23:28,055
you can't help straying away
from something which is real

561
00:23:28,055 --> 00:23:30,215
because of, of the story, uh,

562
00:23:30,235 --> 00:23:32,215
but you tried to come up with plausible

563
00:23:32,215 --> 00:23:34,255
and explanations for various things,

564
00:23:34,445 --> 00:23:36,935
even if they're not conveyed
necessarily on the screen.

565
00:23:37,475 --> 00:23:40,215
Um, but they're, they're
discussed in, in quite a lot

566
00:23:40,215 --> 00:23:42,055
of detail under underneath it,

567
00:23:42,155 --> 00:23:44,855
and I think that's just a
real genuine attempt from the

568
00:23:44,885 --> 00:23:48,005
showrunners to, you know, get myself.

569
00:23:48,025 --> 00:23:51,005
And then the other, um,
advisor was a NASA guy,

570
00:23:51,385 --> 00:23:52,805
um, Bobak fki.

571
00:23:53,025 --> 00:23:56,965
And, um, you know, they really
wanted to understand how,

572
00:23:58,065 --> 00:24:02,485
how things would underpin the,
the kind of, uh, the universe

573
00:24:02,485 --> 00:24:04,925
that's being created
in this, in this show.

574
00:24:04,995 --> 00:24:06,285
Because, I mean, I think one

575
00:24:06,285 --> 00:24:08,245
of the really clever things about the,

576
00:24:08,305 --> 00:24:10,605
the show in the book is the fact

577
00:24:10,605 --> 00:24:13,525
that this mysterious other
world is displayed to you

578
00:24:13,525 --> 00:24:14,845
through a virtual reality game.

579
00:24:14,945 --> 00:24:16,165
You never actually see it.

580
00:24:16,705 --> 00:24:20,805
You are seeing a representation
of it, um, that is put on

581
00:24:20,805 --> 00:24:22,205
for the benefit of, you know,

582
00:24:22,485 --> 00:24:24,845
teaching humankind about this other place.

583
00:24:25,905 --> 00:24:28,245
And that gives you some artistic

584
00:24:28,305 --> 00:24:31,365
and creative freedom with
how you portray things,

585
00:24:31,365 --> 00:24:33,605
because you can speed up slow down time.

586
00:24:33,825 --> 00:24:35,925
You can, you know, invert gravity

587
00:24:36,105 --> 00:24:39,485
or, you know, you can do all
sorts of, all sorts of things

588
00:24:39,535 --> 00:24:41,925
where gravity is on for some characters

589
00:24:41,925 --> 00:24:44,205
and not others, uh, because it's a game.

590
00:24:44,505 --> 00:24:47,165
And so I think that's a
really nice thing, you know,

591
00:24:47,165 --> 00:24:49,925
that's a really nice
creative kind of environment

592
00:24:49,945 --> 00:24:51,765
to think about the physics as well. But

593
00:24:51,835 --> 00:24:53,645
- That scene, uh, you're talking about

594
00:24:53,645 --> 00:24:55,365
with the gravity being on for some

595
00:24:55,365 --> 00:24:59,085
and not others, if you lined
up three sons like that,

596
00:24:59,135 --> 00:25:02,605
would it start to affect gravity in that

597
00:25:02,605 --> 00:25:03,605
- Earth?

598
00:25:03,605 --> 00:25:05,805
We're envisaging, there is
a planet which is somehow

599
00:25:06,405 --> 00:25:07,885
involved in a three star system,

600
00:25:08,875 --> 00:25:11,695
and there is a, a where the three sons

601
00:25:11,695 --> 00:25:14,655
and the planet align all
in a single, uh, axis.

602
00:25:15,275 --> 00:25:17,135
And so for the planet

603
00:25:17,365 --> 00:25:20,735
that feels the stacks
gravitational force of three suns,

604
00:25:22,005 --> 00:25:24,465
and I think, you know, but
the, this planet is made

605
00:25:24,465 --> 00:25:28,225
of something, it's not a
perfect sphere, uh, of, of rock.

606
00:25:28,725 --> 00:25:30,265
Uh, it's probably spinning as,

607
00:25:30,365 --> 00:25:31,945
as are the other three bodies as well.

608
00:25:32,525 --> 00:25:36,425
Um, and so I think you would
probably have a rip, uh, in

609
00:25:36,545 --> 00:25:37,665
that situation, right?

610
00:25:37,845 --> 00:25:40,145
But, uh, certainly you
would, you would, you know,

611
00:25:40,205 --> 00:25:41,945
rip the planet off with the people.

612
00:25:42,725 --> 00:25:45,145
But um, yes, in principle, it just depends

613
00:25:45,365 --> 00:25:47,305
how big the gravitational force is, right?

614
00:25:47,365 --> 00:25:50,305
And, and, uh, and how
close you are to the,

615
00:25:50,685 --> 00:25:51,745
to the object. So

616
00:25:51,745 --> 00:25:54,505
- That's kind of, yeah, there's,
there's artistic license

617
00:25:54,505 --> 00:25:56,825
because it's in the video
game, which is, as you say,

618
00:25:56,825 --> 00:25:58,065
great bit of storytelling,

619
00:25:59,115 --> 00:26:00,115
- Right?

620
00:26:00,115 --> 00:26:01,665
But so, so what you want
for the visualization is

621
00:26:01,665 --> 00:26:04,025
that the characters are still
and watching this, right?

622
00:26:04,125 --> 00:26:05,185
So the actual players

623
00:26:05,285 --> 00:26:08,465
of the game observe this
happening in the, in the universe,

624
00:26:08,565 --> 00:26:09,785
in in, in some way in

625
00:26:09,785 --> 00:26:13,305
- The video game, all the scientists are

626
00:26:13,425 --> 00:26:14,465
played by comedians.

627
00:26:15,125 --> 00:26:17,665
So like Alan Turing is played by, uh,

628
00:26:17,665 --> 00:26:19,385
someone from the League
of Gentlemen, I think.

629
00:26:19,525 --> 00:26:21,065
- But you also have to remember it isn't

630
00:26:21,065 --> 00:26:22,305
really Alan Turing, right?

631
00:26:22,365 --> 00:26:24,985
In the same way that the
character gin is not really

632
00:26:25,035 --> 00:26:26,945
Copernicus, um, those are their,

633
00:26:26,945 --> 00:26:28,425
their character names, right?

634
00:26:28,685 --> 00:26:33,225
And I guess it's, it's a
little kind of Easter egg

635
00:26:33,325 --> 00:26:36,265
or not towards the
physics community, right?

636
00:26:36,445 --> 00:26:39,105
The, the people who have
actually advanced in the game

637
00:26:39,245 --> 00:26:42,945
to level three, I think it
is by that point where you,

638
00:26:43,175 --> 00:26:45,755
you kind of work out, you
know, it's a three body system,

639
00:26:45,775 --> 00:26:47,755
and then you have to try and figure out

640
00:26:47,775 --> 00:26:51,915
how you can predict its, um, orbits, um,

641
00:26:52,505 --> 00:26:54,915
that the people who have
got there have decided

642
00:26:55,775 --> 00:26:58,315
to call themselves in their
as their characters, Turing

643
00:26:59,215 --> 00:27:01,315
Newton, uh, you know,

644
00:27:01,495 --> 00:27:04,395
and of course Copernicus is,
is a, is is also another,

645
00:27:04,615 --> 00:27:05,875
you know, nice character name

646
00:27:05,875 --> 00:27:09,035
because, you know, Copernicus
is credited with the discovery

647
00:27:09,105 --> 00:27:11,395
that the sun is at the
center of our solar system.

648
00:27:11,795 --> 00:27:13,635
I quite like the fact
that these, the, the sort

649
00:27:13,635 --> 00:27:15,235
of comedians were given those roles there,

650
00:27:15,335 --> 00:27:16,395
or, or several roles in it.

651
00:27:16,475 --> 00:27:19,235
I mean, it's a good sort
of British cast. The

652
00:27:19,235 --> 00:27:21,555
- Human computer bit is
an extraordinary scene

653
00:27:21,735 --> 00:27:22,755
to look at, right?

654
00:27:23,215 --> 00:27:25,675
Is that it feasible in any way?

655
00:27:26,025 --> 00:27:28,035
- It's one of my favorite scenes, I think.

656
00:27:28,335 --> 00:27:32,955
Um, and so yeah, I mean, it,
it, the, the idea is that yes,

657
00:27:32,955 --> 00:27:35,875
they, they figured these, these
characters, uh, Turing and,

658
00:27:35,895 --> 00:27:37,515
and, and I can't remember

659
00:27:37,515 --> 00:27:39,115
who the other one is, I
think it might be Newton.

660
00:27:39,465 --> 00:27:41,835
They are, they are figured
out it's a three body system,

661
00:27:41,835 --> 00:27:43,235
and now they're trying to simulate it.

662
00:27:43,255 --> 00:27:44,635
And you can, you can do that.

663
00:27:44,775 --> 00:27:48,235
Uh, it's actually not, uh, you
know, it's, it's a few lines

664
00:27:48,235 --> 00:27:50,635
of code, maybe, you know,
less than a hundred.

665
00:27:51,095 --> 00:27:53,195
Uh, the, the question is
how you actually then run

666
00:27:53,195 --> 00:27:55,275
that code somehow in this game,

667
00:27:55,335 --> 00:27:57,875
and they have to then
build, uh, a computer,

668
00:27:58,055 --> 00:27:59,955
but they don't have any
electronics in the game.

669
00:28:00,055 --> 00:28:01,315
So they, they try

670
00:28:01,315 --> 00:28:04,315
and build it out of, out of
human beings, then it means

671
00:28:04,315 --> 00:28:06,755
that each human being
just becomes a logic gate

672
00:28:06,855 --> 00:28:07,955
in your circuit.

673
00:28:08,455 --> 00:28:10,355
And the difficulty then is trying

674
00:28:10,455 --> 00:28:13,475
to run an operating
system, I think, on that,

675
00:28:13,735 --> 00:28:14,795
on that circuit.

676
00:28:15,335 --> 00:28:17,355
So each human kind of knows what to do.

677
00:28:17,545 --> 00:28:20,235
They know if they're a
not gate, an and gate

678
00:28:20,255 --> 00:28:21,395
or an or gate, right?

679
00:28:21,495 --> 00:28:24,235
And so they, they either
have one input, one output,

680
00:28:24,255 --> 00:28:25,795
or two inputs and one output,

681
00:28:26,375 --> 00:28:28,795
and they're making up the
little semit transistors

682
00:28:28,795 --> 00:28:31,355
that are in our, uh, modern day computers.

683
00:28:32,505 --> 00:28:36,445
And so, yeah, it doesn't have
to be particularly advanced

684
00:28:36,505 --> 00:28:39,245
or powerful, I suppose, the
computer to run this simulation,

685
00:28:39,825 --> 00:28:41,525
uh, depending on how accurately

686
00:28:41,525 --> 00:28:43,645
and how, uh, quickly, you know, how,

687
00:28:43,785 --> 00:28:45,565
how long you want it to predict for.

688
00:28:46,665 --> 00:28:49,205
Um, I think the difficulty is trying

689
00:28:49,205 --> 00:28:50,765
to run an operating system on

690
00:28:50,765 --> 00:28:53,085
that in which you can run your code.

691
00:28:53,785 --> 00:28:55,645
And then, you know,

692
00:28:55,645 --> 00:28:58,285
there's also this other big
dependence in a real circuit,

693
00:28:58,525 --> 00:28:59,925
I guess on the clock frequency.

694
00:29:00,345 --> 00:29:02,805
People need to know when they are zeros

695
00:29:02,805 --> 00:29:03,845
and when they are ones,

696
00:29:03,845 --> 00:29:05,925
you somehow need someone
banging out a rhythm

697
00:29:06,465 --> 00:29:07,965
to keep them in sync.

698
00:29:07,965 --> 00:29:10,285
Otherwise, different bits
of your circuit will go out

699
00:29:10,285 --> 00:29:11,285
of sync with the others

700
00:29:11,545 --> 00:29:14,405
and you'll have these
horrible kind of problems.

701
00:29:15,145 --> 00:29:19,325
So you need enough people
to do it in time if one

702
00:29:19,325 --> 00:29:20,525
of them makes a mistake.

703
00:29:21,365 --> 00:29:23,845
I think basically your program crashes.

704
00:29:24,515 --> 00:29:26,405
It's a sort of control
alt, delete situation,

705
00:29:26,425 --> 00:29:29,965
but you would somehow need
to know to unravel that

706
00:29:30,035 --> 00:29:32,765
because your prediction will,
will make, will be nonsense

707
00:29:32,945 --> 00:29:34,645
or your, your signal will get stuck.

708
00:29:35,705 --> 00:29:38,405
But yeah, I think it could
be doable if you had enough

709
00:29:38,405 --> 00:29:40,405
people doing it in clock.

710
00:29:40,465 --> 00:29:43,005
And of course it's a game again.

711
00:29:43,105 --> 00:29:45,645
So the characters who are
playing, you know, the real people

712
00:29:45,705 --> 00:29:47,925
who are playing these characters, uh,

713
00:29:48,065 --> 00:29:51,285
in the game have convinced
this leader to get all

714
00:29:51,285 --> 00:29:52,685
of his armies of people together

715
00:29:53,185 --> 00:29:55,805
and maybe, you know, whoever's
in control of the game

716
00:29:56,435 --> 00:29:58,205
sets the parameters such that, you know,

717
00:29:58,755 --> 00:30:01,405
your human beings do act like a computer.

718
00:30:01,625 --> 00:30:04,605
The, the problem is, is
your simulation is only, uh,

719
00:30:04,605 --> 00:30:06,165
gonna last for some amount of time.

720
00:30:06,365 --> 00:30:09,085
I mean, you know, that bit is possible,

721
00:30:09,205 --> 00:30:11,205
I think making the
computer running this code,

722
00:30:11,745 --> 00:30:14,725
but then you still can't,
it still can't work really,

723
00:30:14,725 --> 00:30:18,605
because you have to know the
exact starting conditions

724
00:30:18,605 --> 00:30:21,125
of your three body system
to run this simulation.

725
00:30:21,665 --> 00:30:23,365
And your simulation is numerical.

726
00:30:23,475 --> 00:30:26,725
It's not, uh, it's not a perfect
solution to this problem.

727
00:30:27,225 --> 00:30:29,765
So it will walk over time away from

728
00:30:29,765 --> 00:30:31,645
where the real outcome goes.

729
00:30:32,145 --> 00:30:34,285
And so, yeah, you have to
measure the exact positions

730
00:30:34,285 --> 00:30:37,245
of these three sons and
their exact ve philosophies,

731
00:30:37,745 --> 00:30:40,725
and then put those as the
starting input to your program

732
00:30:41,185 --> 00:30:42,565
and then run the simulation.

733
00:30:42,905 --> 00:30:44,965
And then in real life, what
you were doing, you would try

734
00:30:44,965 --> 00:30:46,685
and have a live feedback loop, right?

735
00:30:46,685 --> 00:30:48,485
That observed where
these bodies were going

736
00:30:48,945 --> 00:30:51,725
to then run this back through
your simulation again to try

737
00:30:51,725 --> 00:30:54,205
and somehow minimize
the difference between

738
00:30:54,205 --> 00:30:56,685
what you are predicting and,
and what you are observing,

739
00:30:56,865 --> 00:30:59,285
and then seeing where
that goes in the future.

740
00:31:00,065 --> 00:31:02,845
You know? So it's like
some kind of Hawkeye, uh,

741
00:31:03,065 --> 00:31:04,445
but uh, you know, that's

742
00:31:04,445 --> 00:31:06,285
what you wanna run on
this computer, right?

743
00:31:06,705 --> 00:31:09,245
So you know where your
planet's gonna be tomorrow in,

744
00:31:09,305 --> 00:31:10,445
in a month, and so on.

745
00:31:10,665 --> 00:31:12,285
- The one other thing that sort of

746
00:31:13,765 --> 00:31:16,325
confused me slightly was using the sun

747
00:31:16,465 --> 00:31:17,885
as an amplifier of the message.

748
00:31:17,985 --> 00:31:19,045
Is that feasible?

749
00:31:19,385 --> 00:31:21,845
- The kind of way that
I thought about this,

750
00:31:21,865 --> 00:31:24,245
and this is, this is mentioned
a bit in the book as well,

751
00:31:24,265 --> 00:31:26,645
is yeah, the amplifications
of signals, right?

752
00:31:26,705 --> 00:31:28,885
So I mean, the sun has, has layers

753
00:31:28,905 --> 00:31:31,645
and it has these
convection currents, right?

754
00:31:31,665 --> 00:31:32,805
In its different layers.

755
00:31:33,465 --> 00:31:36,365
And so you could certainly
imagine that for some frequencies

756
00:31:36,365 --> 00:31:38,125
of radiation, you know,

757
00:31:38,375 --> 00:31:40,645
every time they cross
a boundary basically,

758
00:31:40,645 --> 00:31:44,325
where there's a different
makeup of the, the, the plasma

759
00:31:44,475 --> 00:31:47,005
that makes up the sun, um, you know,

760
00:31:47,005 --> 00:31:48,525
there's a transition probability

761
00:31:48,585 --> 00:31:49,925
and a reflection probability.

762
00:31:50,075 --> 00:31:51,445
They are, they are a wave.

763
00:31:51,585 --> 00:31:54,205
And so some of it will
reflect off the surface, some

764
00:31:54,205 --> 00:31:55,605
of it will be transmitted.

765
00:31:56,485 --> 00:31:59,385
And then if you have another
layer behind that of, you know,

766
00:31:59,485 --> 00:32:02,065
the right number of
wavelengths, if you reflect off

767
00:32:02,065 --> 00:32:04,785
that layer, then the
two can interfere, uh,

768
00:32:04,785 --> 00:32:06,065
and they can interfere constructively.

769
00:32:06,805 --> 00:32:10,545
And so whether the actual structure

770
00:32:10,605 --> 00:32:12,585
of the sun is symmetric enough

771
00:32:12,725 --> 00:32:15,945
and the wavelength of the,
of the radiation has to be,

772
00:32:15,965 --> 00:32:17,385
you know, perfectly tuned somehow.

773
00:32:17,525 --> 00:32:19,545
And that might not be then practical for

774
00:32:19,975 --> 00:32:22,025
what signals you can produce and so on.

775
00:32:22,485 --> 00:32:25,785
But that was kind of the, the
principle of the idea that,

776
00:32:25,805 --> 00:32:28,305
you know, just like, like
traveling through a bubble,

777
00:32:28,545 --> 00:32:31,665
I guess you get some kind
of, uh, interference pattern

778
00:32:31,925 --> 00:32:33,385
and that could be constructive.

779
00:32:33,385 --> 00:32:36,385
And that's exactly how an
amplifier then, then works.

780
00:32:37,505 --> 00:32:40,685
I mean, it was kind of, I was
gonna say there was, you know,

781
00:32:40,995 --> 00:32:44,845
part of the, the advising
role, um, was a bit of time

782
00:32:44,845 --> 00:32:46,925
with the, the cast, what they were.

783
00:32:47,105 --> 00:32:49,445
Uh, and they, they did
this, what they were going,

784
00:32:49,445 --> 00:32:51,365
doing the script read
throughs, which happened

785
00:32:51,365 --> 00:32:52,805
through sort of three or four day period.

786
00:32:53,665 --> 00:32:55,565
Um, and I was on the set at the time

787
00:32:55,665 --> 00:32:57,125
and met some of the cast then

788
00:32:57,265 --> 00:32:59,285
and had different conversations
with different members

789
00:32:59,285 --> 00:33:01,725
of the cast about various
different aspects of the show.

790
00:33:02,385 --> 00:33:06,165
But the character that
plays the young, um, uh,

791
00:33:06,675 --> 00:33:09,645
when Jay in the, in these
early scenes, you know,

792
00:33:09,645 --> 00:33:11,965
the character that
transmits this signal, um,

793
00:33:12,185 --> 00:33:14,925
she was very <laugh>, very, um, kind

794
00:33:14,925 --> 00:33:17,365
of interested in this exact, uh, principle

795
00:33:17,385 --> 00:33:19,605
and about how this
amplification could occur.

796
00:33:20,145 --> 00:33:23,045
And I think, you know, I
eventually convinced her that,

797
00:33:23,105 --> 00:33:25,365
you know, an amplifier, you know, the,

798
00:33:25,425 --> 00:33:29,045
the headphones in your, um,
ears can amplify a signal.

799
00:33:29,265 --> 00:33:31,605
So in principle, so could the sun,

800
00:33:31,665 --> 00:33:35,405
but, uh, yes, the, it's not a phenomena

801
00:33:35,405 --> 00:33:36,965
that's been observed as far as I'm aware.

802
00:33:37,195 --> 00:33:38,725
- Yeah, that's really nice though

803
00:33:38,725 --> 00:33:41,805
that the actor really was
interested in that concept.

804
00:33:42,345 --> 00:33:44,085
- Um, yeah, I mean it
was, it was pretty fun.

805
00:33:44,085 --> 00:33:45,765
And, and, and, and yeah, different members

806
00:33:45,765 --> 00:33:48,725
of the cast had different
interests in, uh, in,

807
00:33:48,785 --> 00:33:50,125
in different aspects.

808
00:33:50,305 --> 00:33:52,565
And you know, also aspects of what the,

809
00:33:53,275 --> 00:33:55,645
what they would be like
as day-to-day physicists.

810
00:33:56,185 --> 00:33:58,885
The characters I think,
uh, are, are kind of

811
00:33:59,515 --> 00:34:02,805
hopefully well portrayed in
certain, in terms of their kind

812
00:34:02,805 --> 00:34:05,245
of diversity and their, their backgrounds

813
00:34:05,385 --> 00:34:08,325
and you know, these, these kind
of main characters that are,

814
00:34:08,945 --> 00:34:10,925
um, you know, based in Oxford

815
00:34:10,985 --> 00:34:13,205
or they did their PhDs together in Oxford.

816
00:34:13,225 --> 00:34:16,125
And I was asked quite a bit
about the characters early on

817
00:34:16,185 --> 00:34:20,045
and, you know, how plausible
is it that, you know, this set

818
00:34:20,045 --> 00:34:21,965
of characters as, as in this situation.

819
00:34:21,985 --> 00:34:25,125
And I, I found it, uh,
I found it very kind of,

820
00:34:25,345 --> 00:34:26,845
uh, uh, acceptable.

821
00:34:26,865 --> 00:34:29,645
It seemed, uh, there
was some parallels with

822
00:34:30,275 --> 00:34:32,685
what I'd seen in the, in the
sense that they're a bunch

823
00:34:32,685 --> 00:34:35,125
of PhD students, they
share the same supervisor.

824
00:34:35,625 --> 00:34:38,085
So they, they spend kind
of four year, five years

825
00:34:38,105 --> 00:34:39,165
of their life together.

826
00:34:39,745 --> 00:34:40,765
And you know, some

827
00:34:40,765 --> 00:34:42,285
of them are kind of in
love with each other.

828
00:34:42,515 --> 00:34:45,125
Some of them are, you
know, romantically involved

829
00:34:45,225 --> 00:34:48,045
and there's kind of good
friends, not so good friends,

830
00:34:48,105 --> 00:34:50,925
and it seemed kind of quite
a plausible situation.

831
00:34:51,025 --> 00:34:53,845
And I think it's, it's nice
that several of them are women,

832
00:34:54,425 --> 00:34:56,245
uh, as well,

833
00:34:56,265 --> 00:34:59,885
and sort of, yeah, diverse
ethnic backgrounds gives a, a,

834
00:35:00,205 --> 00:35:01,525
a nice portrayal of something,

835
00:35:01,525 --> 00:35:05,245
which I think is quite a
realistic, um, kind of, uh,

836
00:35:05,635 --> 00:35:06,765
environment that they're

837
00:35:06,765 --> 00:35:07,765
- In.

838
00:35:07,765 --> 00:35:08,045
Was it a fun experience?

839
00:35:08,045 --> 00:35:09,925
Would you be up for being
science advisor on something

840
00:35:09,925 --> 00:35:10,925
- Else?

841
00:35:10,925 --> 00:35:11,925
Yeah, it was brilliant.
I really enjoyed it.

842
00:35:11,945 --> 00:35:13,885
It was, it was great
to, uh, think about some

843
00:35:13,885 --> 00:35:15,925
of this like high concept
stuff as well, right?

844
00:35:16,005 --> 00:35:18,365
I mean, it's a bit like
interacting with, with students.

845
00:35:18,665 --> 00:35:20,725
Um, you know, you really get asked some,

846
00:35:20,795 --> 00:35:21,885
some questions about things.

847
00:35:21,885 --> 00:35:23,885
You're like, oh, I've never,
never really thought about,

848
00:35:24,135 --> 00:35:25,285
never really thought about that.

849
00:35:26,025 --> 00:35:28,645
Um, and so it, it's kind
of really good fun to kind

850
00:35:28,645 --> 00:35:31,605
of think about these different,
uh, physics scenarios.

851
00:35:31,605 --> 00:35:32,965
So yeah, I, I would love to do it again,

852
00:35:33,025 --> 00:35:35,685
but, um, I probably won't
give up the day job.

853
00:35:35,945 --> 00:35:37,245
Uh, you know, I enjoy, I I enjoyed

854
00:35:37,245 --> 00:35:38,805
- The research a little
bit too much for that.

855
00:35:38,805 --> 00:35:40,445
Well, that's certainly
good news for those of us

856
00:35:40,545 --> 00:35:43,685
who are interested in
scientists unlocking the secrets

857
00:35:43,685 --> 00:35:45,405
of the universe and also some good news

858
00:35:45,705 --> 00:35:47,725
for anybody making a
science fiction series

859
00:35:48,025 --> 00:35:50,805
who would like a science
advisor like Matt,

860
00:35:50,985 --> 00:35:54,405
we can't really talk about
three body problem without

861
00:35:54,725 --> 00:35:58,165
considering how we might talk to aliens.

862
00:35:58,865 --> 00:36:00,645
Here's Dr. Hannah Little,

863
00:36:00,905 --> 00:36:02,645
- I'm a lecturer at the University

864
00:36:02,645 --> 00:36:06,845
of Liverpool in the communication
and media department, um,

865
00:36:06,985 --> 00:36:11,325
but I'm also, um, a
researcher with the UK seti,

866
00:36:11,985 --> 00:36:15,405
uh, network and also
Seti post detection hub

867
00:36:15,465 --> 00:36:17,045
who are based at the University of St.

868
00:36:17,155 --> 00:36:21,085
Andrews. And they're
specifically interested in the

869
00:36:21,085 --> 00:36:22,365
search forter show life.

870
00:36:22,505 --> 00:36:24,285
But what happens after we make that

871
00:36:24,935 --> 00:36:27,765
first discovery, uh, of a signal?

872
00:36:27,985 --> 00:36:30,325
So Seti is interested in, um,

873
00:36:30,685 --> 00:36:32,965
discovering signals in
the universe, evidence

874
00:36:33,305 --> 00:36:34,765
for intelligent life,

875
00:36:35,145 --> 00:36:39,125
and the post detection hub,
then ask what happens next?

876
00:36:39,825 --> 00:36:41,925
- And do you think that the example of

877
00:36:41,925 --> 00:36:44,605
what happens next in the three
body problem is a good one?

878
00:36:44,705 --> 00:36:46,605
- Uh, I mean, the simple
answer, no, right?

879
00:36:46,605 --> 00:36:47,885
Things don't go well <laugh>

880
00:36:47,915 --> 00:36:50,805
because of a lack of
processes, Andrew, and

881
00:36:50,805 --> 00:36:54,405
because of a lack of,
um, uh, communication

882
00:36:54,405 --> 00:36:59,365
between different humans who
make, um, decisions on behalf

883
00:36:59,365 --> 00:37:03,565
of humanity, about what messages
we should be sending out

884
00:37:04,385 --> 00:37:08,165
or, um, how we should
be responding to, uh,

885
00:37:08,165 --> 00:37:09,285
intelligent life forms.

886
00:37:10,105 --> 00:37:12,965
Um, and it does actually mirror an ongoing

887
00:37:13,485 --> 00:37:16,045
friction within the Seti community, uh,

888
00:37:16,285 --> 00:37:18,365
specifically in relationship to Meti.

889
00:37:18,505 --> 00:37:21,605
So, uh, SETI is the search
for extra intelligence.

890
00:37:21,875 --> 00:37:25,085
Meti is the messaging extra
terrestrial intelligence.

891
00:37:25,465 --> 00:37:29,805
So there's been a few
instances, um, in the last, uh,

892
00:37:29,865 --> 00:37:31,485
few decades since the 1960s,

893
00:37:31,585 --> 00:37:34,685
others sending signals out into space.

894
00:37:35,545 --> 00:37:39,765
Um, and, uh, there are quite
a lot of, uh, people who think

895
00:37:39,765 --> 00:37:41,005
that's a very bad idea

896
00:37:41,035 --> 00:37:45,205
because we don't know how
friendly any potential

897
00:37:45,905 --> 00:37:48,205
aliens that we, that might
be out there might be.

898
00:37:48,665 --> 00:37:50,525
That's actually what
the, the following novel

899
00:37:50,585 --> 00:37:53,765
to the three body problems
about the dark forest is this

900
00:37:53,995 --> 00:37:57,365
idea that there might be
many, many hundreds of,

901
00:37:57,385 --> 00:37:59,605
of advanced alien civilizations out there,

902
00:37:59,705 --> 00:38:00,765
but we don't know about them

903
00:38:00,765 --> 00:38:05,405
because nobody's sending
out signals about themselves

904
00:38:05,675 --> 00:38:09,085
because that is a foolish thing to do

905
00:38:09,275 --> 00:38:13,045
because if you say, hi, I am
here, uh, then that invites,

906
00:38:13,225 --> 00:38:14,885
uh, potential invaders to come

907
00:38:14,945 --> 00:38:18,645
and do an independent
day style, uh, massacre.

908
00:38:18,905 --> 00:38:21,125
- We are sort of sending out
messages anyway, aren't we?

909
00:38:21,285 --> 00:38:24,685
I mean, I've seen contact and
I've read the book of contact,

910
00:38:25,065 --> 00:38:26,165
and that suggests

911
00:38:26,165 --> 00:38:28,885
that our messages have been
going out basically since we've

912
00:38:28,885 --> 00:38:30,765
been broadcasting television.

913
00:38:30,865 --> 00:38:33,885
- But that is not a direct, um,

914
00:38:34,345 --> 00:38:36,565
and fast form of communication.

915
00:38:37,225 --> 00:38:39,845
Um, so some of, um,

916
00:38:39,875 --> 00:38:43,085
when we transmit things
specifically in a deep space using

917
00:38:43,085 --> 00:38:47,805
radio, uh, telescopes,
then tho those signals, um,

918
00:38:47,825 --> 00:38:49,205
are targeted and much,

919
00:38:49,345 --> 00:38:52,165
and move much quicker than
our normal radio signals.

920
00:38:52,305 --> 00:38:56,085
So yes, we've, we kind of
are sending signals out all

921
00:38:56,085 --> 00:38:58,005
of the time, but they're
not being targeted

922
00:38:58,305 --> 00:39:01,285
and they're, they're much
more slow than, than some

923
00:39:01,285 --> 00:39:04,645
of these more targeted,
uh, radio messages.

924
00:39:04,975 --> 00:39:06,125
- Would you send out a message?

925
00:39:06,465 --> 00:39:09,125
- Do you know? Part of me wants to say yes

926
00:39:09,355 --> 00:39:14,125
because the more I think
about this, but I think it's

927
00:39:14,125 --> 00:39:16,285
because I'm quite an
optimistic person who kind

928
00:39:16,285 --> 00:39:19,405
of has a quite positive view of humanity

929
00:39:19,505 --> 00:39:20,765
and the direction we're going.

930
00:39:20,785 --> 00:39:24,965
But I realize that I am, uh,
a bit strange in, in, in that,

931
00:39:25,705 --> 00:39:26,965
in that regard, um,

932
00:39:26,965 --> 00:39:31,005
because when I think about
the history of, of, of humans

933
00:39:31,905 --> 00:39:34,925
and, um, how we've
progressed in our thought,

934
00:39:35,845 --> 00:39:37,485
I don't necessarily mean in recent years,

935
00:39:37,545 --> 00:39:41,405
but over the course of history,
um, we've progressed more

936
00:39:41,405 --> 00:39:45,205
and more towards, uh, a
state of seeing other animals

937
00:39:45,425 --> 00:39:49,845
or other races of human
as being worthy of respect

938
00:39:49,865 --> 00:39:53,205
and worthy of, of, of
being, um, protected.

939
00:39:53,425 --> 00:39:55,965
And I think that the
environmental movement

940
00:39:56,155 --> 00:39:59,685
that we're currently seeing
is indicative of, of seeing,

941
00:39:59,865 --> 00:40:02,165
of being respectful of,
of other living creatures.

942
00:40:02,585 --> 00:40:06,445
Um, but across, you know,
historical time, we've also learn

943
00:40:06,465 --> 00:40:10,005
to see other races of
human as being equal to us,

944
00:40:10,145 --> 00:40:12,565
rather than seeing as white western people

945
00:40:12,665 --> 00:40:14,565
as being, uh, supreme.

946
00:40:14,895 --> 00:40:16,725
We're, we're progressing towards wanting

947
00:40:16,745 --> 00:40:18,725
to protect each other
and seeing things like

948
00:40:18,965 --> 00:40:20,285
colonialism as as bad.

949
00:40:21,265 --> 00:40:23,125
And as a result of that,
I think that if we were

950
00:40:23,125 --> 00:40:25,725
to find intelligent aliens out there,

951
00:40:26,145 --> 00:40:29,485
our first instinct would not
be let's destroy them all and,

952
00:40:29,485 --> 00:40:30,925
and live on their planet, right?

953
00:40:31,515 --> 00:40:33,725
We'd be curious, we'd want to research.

954
00:40:34,425 --> 00:40:38,005
Um, our scientific ethics
would not allow us to,

955
00:40:38,665 --> 00:40:39,965
um, do them any harm.

956
00:40:40,825 --> 00:40:43,125
Um, and so I'd like to think

957
00:40:43,125 --> 00:40:45,245
that if there's an alien species out there

958
00:40:45,505 --> 00:40:47,085
who are technologically advanced

959
00:40:47,865 --> 00:40:51,125
to master space travel
in order to get to us,

960
00:40:51,595 --> 00:40:56,085
that they would also be
sufficiently advanced in, in,

961
00:40:56,085 --> 00:40:58,285
in relationship to their,
to their ethics and,

962
00:40:58,345 --> 00:40:59,765
and their, the way

963
00:40:59,765 --> 00:41:02,125
that they think about
other living creatures.

964
00:41:02,505 --> 00:41:04,405
So if that's the case, I
don't think we've got anything

965
00:41:04,405 --> 00:41:06,685
to be scared of, but of
course we can never know.

966
00:41:06,865 --> 00:41:08,085
And that's the problem. <laugh>,

967
00:41:08,295 --> 00:41:10,885
- There are people in power in countries

968
00:41:11,025 --> 00:41:12,165
around the world today.

969
00:41:12,185 --> 00:41:15,085
If we had an alien, um, invasion

970
00:41:15,515 --> 00:41:18,965
that was a friendly alien
invasion, you can sort of imagine

971
00:41:18,965 --> 00:41:20,285
that they'd be the wrong people.

972
00:41:20,545 --> 00:41:23,805
So how do we go about getting
the right people to talk

973
00:41:23,805 --> 00:41:24,885
to aliens when they arrive?

974
00:41:25,105 --> 00:41:27,885
- Um, so in the post detection
help, there's like lawyers

975
00:41:28,105 --> 00:41:30,965
and people who specialize in
what we call scenario mapping

976
00:41:31,025 --> 00:41:34,405
and working out who, you
know, the key actors are

977
00:41:34,425 --> 00:41:35,965
and working out what they do

978
00:41:35,985 --> 00:41:37,885
and how it would change
perspective and things.

979
00:41:38,465 --> 00:41:41,165
Um, but really I'm just a
linguist who sits at the corner

980
00:41:41,265 --> 00:41:44,045
and thinks about how we'd
start talking to them.

981
00:41:44,345 --> 00:41:46,005
Um, so I mean,

982
00:41:46,005 --> 00:41:47,685
the only answer is that
I don't, I don't know.

983
00:41:48,705 --> 00:41:51,405
And that's a problem in
itself is, is that there's,

984
00:41:51,645 --> 00:41:53,925
there's no clear hierarchy
in, in who should have,

985
00:41:54,225 --> 00:41:55,285
who should be in charge in

986
00:41:55,285 --> 00:41:56,485
relationship to that communication.

987
00:41:56,485 --> 00:41:58,405
But that's why we need kind
of these processes in place

988
00:41:58,425 --> 00:42:01,565
before, before it happens, if it happens.

989
00:42:02,275 --> 00:42:04,925
- Okay, so I'll let you
off the moral dilemma

990
00:42:04,945 --> 00:42:06,325
of getting the right people in power

991
00:42:06,385 --> 00:42:08,245
and who should talk to the aliens <laugh>,

992
00:42:08,245 --> 00:42:10,765
but the, in terms of the
linguistics, say we've got past

993
00:42:10,765 --> 00:42:12,085
that and we are having a conversation,

994
00:42:12,105 --> 00:42:13,605
but how do we talk to aliens?

995
00:42:13,605 --> 00:42:15,925
How does, does the series
kind of work in that way?

996
00:42:16,505 --> 00:42:19,365
- So what the series does is
actually bypass the problem,

997
00:42:19,725 --> 00:42:24,095
I think is the most, um,
exciting problem, which is,

998
00:42:24,875 --> 00:42:29,695
um, how do you, um, start
communication in the first place?

999
00:42:30,275 --> 00:42:34,615
And it seems that the, the
aliens in the three, uh,

1000
00:42:34,615 --> 00:42:37,655
body problem, the Santi, they
have a very different way

1001
00:42:37,655 --> 00:42:39,255
of communicating than us,

1002
00:42:39,435 --> 00:42:42,015
but they have mastered how
to communicate with us.

1003
00:42:42,035 --> 00:42:44,735
So there's one scene in
the, in the series where

1004
00:42:45,255 --> 00:42:47,655
I want explain the context of this scene

1005
00:42:47,855 --> 00:42:49,055
'cause it is a massive spoiler,

1006
00:42:49,515 --> 00:42:53,135
but they send a message
that everyone on earth sees

1007
00:42:53,155 --> 00:42:54,695
and they see it in their own language.

1008
00:42:54,715 --> 00:42:56,015
So in Russia, it's written in Russia

1009
00:42:56,075 --> 00:42:58,135
and in England it's written
in, written in English

1010
00:42:58,435 --> 00:42:59,935
and in China it's written in Chinese.

1011
00:43:00,515 --> 00:43:05,135
And that indicates that
they've somehow got enough

1012
00:43:05,135 --> 00:43:08,615
of our, enough of the, um,
evidence from our planet, enough

1013
00:43:08,615 --> 00:43:11,375
of the communications to perhaps, um,

1014
00:43:11,435 --> 00:43:14,575
do statist some statistical
learning to work out what all

1015
00:43:14,575 --> 00:43:17,575
of our languages are, what
they're made up of, and and,

1016
00:43:17,595 --> 00:43:19,415
and how we communicate
using them to be able

1017
00:43:19,415 --> 00:43:20,495
to send messages like that.

1018
00:43:20,795 --> 00:43:24,695
And that is one way to, to deal
with, um, how to communicate

1019
00:43:24,695 --> 00:43:27,695
with, with a new species
is to basically work out

1020
00:43:27,695 --> 00:43:31,335
how they're communicating
using computational tools, um,

1021
00:43:31,515 --> 00:43:34,575
to then just send messages back.

1022
00:43:34,715 --> 00:43:36,775
And if you are sufficient,
if you've got enough data

1023
00:43:36,835 --> 00:43:39,975
and enough com computational
power, uh, you can do

1024
00:43:39,975 --> 00:43:41,055
that quite easily, I think.

1025
00:43:41,835 --> 00:43:45,935
But the problem I'm mostly
interested in is if you had an

1026
00:43:45,935 --> 00:43:48,095
alien in a room with no technology,

1027
00:43:48,195 --> 00:43:49,855
how would you start that communication?

1028
00:43:50,195 --> 00:43:52,935
Um, but that series
doesn't cover that at all.

1029
00:43:53,275 --> 00:43:55,615
Um, but there is some really
interesting stuff in there

1030
00:43:55,615 --> 00:43:56,735
about, um, communication

1031
00:43:56,735 --> 00:44:00,615
because, um, crucially, the,
the thing that results in,

1032
00:44:00,635 --> 00:44:02,215
in us falling out with the aliens,

1033
00:44:02,215 --> 00:44:03,775
and I'm not sure that this is a spoiler,

1034
00:44:03,855 --> 00:44:07,055
I think it might be, is that,
um, the aliens can't lie

1035
00:44:07,395 --> 00:44:11,055
and they are very suspicious
of humans because we can lie.

1036
00:44:11,315 --> 00:44:14,415
And this creates, uh, quite
a large amount of discord.

1037
00:44:14,675 --> 00:44:17,535
And it seems to be that the
reason that they can't lie is

1038
00:44:17,535 --> 00:44:20,855
because their communications
very much linked

1039
00:44:20,995 --> 00:44:22,335
to their thought.

1040
00:44:23,115 --> 00:44:26,535
Um, and so there's no filter
between them thinking and,

1041
00:44:26,555 --> 00:44:28,415
and what they end up speaking out loud.

1042
00:44:28,835 --> 00:44:33,365
And there's one scene where
the Santi discover this, uh,

1043
00:44:33,365 --> 00:44:35,405
as a result of one of the humans reading,

1044
00:44:36,085 --> 00:44:37,565
I think it was Little Red Riding Hood,

1045
00:44:37,565 --> 00:44:39,485
and they were really
confused about this story

1046
00:44:39,665 --> 00:44:41,085
and they were asking questions about it

1047
00:44:41,085 --> 00:44:44,685
and then realized eventually
that it was fiction.

1048
00:44:45,105 --> 00:44:48,765
And the notion of fiction
meant that we can lie

1049
00:44:49,065 --> 00:44:50,445
and that's alarming to them.

1050
00:44:51,145 --> 00:44:53,565
And in that scene, the human,

1051
00:44:54,045 --> 00:44:56,525
I think he's called
Mike Evans, he expresses

1052
00:44:56,525 --> 00:45:00,005
that our ability to lie
comes from, um, the fact

1053
00:45:00,075 --> 00:45:03,485
that we are in some way not
as advanced as the aliens.

1054
00:45:03,485 --> 00:45:05,445
So he says that we're
like Barnard animals,

1055
00:45:05,825 --> 00:45:07,005
so squawking at each other.

1056
00:45:07,425 --> 00:45:10,045
But I was thinking about this notion, um,

1057
00:45:10,235 --> 00:45:13,005
that having a filter between our thoughts

1058
00:45:13,465 --> 00:45:14,845
and what comes out of our mouth,

1059
00:45:14,845 --> 00:45:17,885
which is necessarily more
considered and can be a lie

1060
00:45:17,985 --> 00:45:20,805
or we can selectively
decide to say some things

1061
00:45:20,825 --> 00:45:25,205
and not others, is actually
what separates us from a lot

1062
00:45:25,205 --> 00:45:27,405
of animal communication within the world.

1063
00:45:27,625 --> 00:45:30,405
So animals, animal
communication is quite often

1064
00:45:30,405 --> 00:45:32,605
characterized by the fact
that they don't have a filter.

1065
00:45:33,375 --> 00:45:36,925
Their communication is based
in things like them being

1066
00:45:36,925 --> 00:45:39,605
hungry or them wanting
to meet with each other

1067
00:45:40,185 --> 00:45:43,245
or something else that's
based in their needs.

1068
00:45:43,665 --> 00:45:47,125
And so there's no filter
between them expressing a need

1069
00:45:47,225 --> 00:45:49,365
and needing help with fulfilling that need

1070
00:45:49,665 --> 00:45:51,565
and producing a signal about it.

1071
00:45:51,625 --> 00:45:53,965
And so in, in those systems,

1072
00:45:54,145 --> 00:45:56,525
in those animal communication
systems, it's not possible

1073
00:45:56,985 --> 00:46:00,085
to lie because it's their
signal is very much bound up in

1074
00:46:00,085 --> 00:46:02,365
their biology and, and
their needs at that time.

1075
00:46:03,505 --> 00:46:05,525
Uh, and we've gone past that

1076
00:46:05,625 --> 00:46:08,605
and are now a, a place where we can, uh,

1077
00:46:08,865 --> 00:46:12,645
lie about being hungry or
send out signals about wanting

1078
00:46:12,665 --> 00:46:15,565
to mate when we might not
want to for whatever reason.

1079
00:46:15,705 --> 00:46:19,245
And we, we mark that as
being progress, right?

1080
00:46:19,345 --> 00:46:21,405
We are more advanced than than animals.

1081
00:46:21,465 --> 00:46:24,045
We are, we, um, have
supremacy over animals.

1082
00:46:24,705 --> 00:46:26,525
That's how we generally
think about ourselves

1083
00:46:26,525 --> 00:46:29,325
and our human language and
our communicative abilities.

1084
00:46:29,465 --> 00:46:32,325
But it's interesting in
the show that that's kind

1085
00:46:32,325 --> 00:46:34,445
of backwards, that we
see ourselves as being

1086
00:46:35,325 --> 00:46:37,045
squawking barnyard animals rather than,

1087
00:46:37,745 --> 00:46:39,005
uh, an advanced species.

1088
00:46:39,065 --> 00:46:41,605
And it certainly sees,
seems that the Santi Sea is

1089
00:46:41,705 --> 00:46:42,805
as potentially advanced

1090
00:46:42,915 --> 00:46:46,645
because then they decide
that we are a great danger

1091
00:46:46,645 --> 00:46:48,605
because of this, this
ability that we have.

1092
00:46:49,025 --> 00:46:51,405
- But what if maybe in season two, one

1093
00:46:51,405 --> 00:46:53,765
of these aliens is standing
in a room with one of them,

1094
00:46:53,865 --> 00:46:55,725
but how do we communicate in a room

1095
00:46:55,915 --> 00:46:58,685
with an alien species from another planet?

1096
00:46:59,245 --> 00:47:00,405
- I mean, this is really tricky.

1097
00:47:00,745 --> 00:47:02,805
Uh, and there's no way
to answer this question

1098
00:47:03,195 --> 00:47:04,845
that isn't highly speculative

1099
00:47:04,845 --> 00:47:05,885
because we don't know

1100
00:47:06,505 --> 00:47:08,925
how they're gonna
communicate with each other.

1101
00:47:09,305 --> 00:47:11,285
We know because all of the scenes

1102
00:47:11,285 --> 00:47:14,845
of them communicating in in the
first series is them sending

1103
00:47:15,055 --> 00:47:18,925
human language that is
clearly being translated over

1104
00:47:19,635 --> 00:47:20,925
over radio signals.

1105
00:47:21,265 --> 00:47:24,045
So we have this problem
where we don't know

1106
00:47:24,315 --> 00:47:26,605
what modality they used to communicate.

1107
00:47:26,655 --> 00:47:29,045
Maybe they don't open
their mouths a lot at all,

1108
00:47:29,060 --> 00:47:30,805
all maybe it's all tele telepathic.

1109
00:47:30,805 --> 00:47:32,765
And there's a couple of of things

1110
00:47:32,765 --> 00:47:34,885
that hint at it being telepathic

1111
00:47:35,605 --> 00:47:37,285
communication in, in the series.

1112
00:47:37,465 --> 00:47:38,845
And if it is telepathic

1113
00:47:39,145 --> 00:47:42,885
and their brains don't
necessarily allow them to have

1114
00:47:42,915 --> 00:47:45,565
that telepathic communication with humans,

1115
00:47:45,575 --> 00:47:46,965
which it's likely not to

1116
00:47:46,965 --> 00:47:50,685
because we don't have whatever
biology they've evolved

1117
00:47:50,745 --> 00:47:53,925
to allow for that, that
there would necessarily be no

1118
00:47:53,925 --> 00:47:55,805
outward indication that they're trying

1119
00:47:55,805 --> 00:47:57,205
to communicate in the first place.

1120
00:47:57,905 --> 00:48:00,005
But the first thing that
a human would do would be

1121
00:48:00,005 --> 00:48:01,045
to outwardly try

1122
00:48:01,065 --> 00:48:04,285
and, uh, signal that I am
trying to communicate with you.

1123
00:48:04,465 --> 00:48:06,885
And I always said the best
way to do that is just

1124
00:48:06,885 --> 00:48:08,125
to say hello <laugh>.

1125
00:48:08,585 --> 00:48:12,965
Um, because, you know, I,
regardless of of of species,

1126
00:48:13,425 --> 00:48:15,845
um, it's a good bet that the first, or,

1127
00:48:15,905 --> 00:48:17,005
or you know, language

1128
00:48:17,005 --> 00:48:18,965
that anyone speaking across
the world is a good indication

1129
00:48:18,965 --> 00:48:19,965
that the first thing that you say

1130
00:48:19,965 --> 00:48:21,285
to somebody else is, is a greeting.

1131
00:48:21,975 --> 00:48:24,045
- Hello. Or help maybe,

1132
00:48:24,435 --> 00:48:26,445
- Depending on the situation, <laugh>,

1133
00:48:26,645 --> 00:48:28,805
- I might not say hello
if I was, you know,

1134
00:48:29,365 --> 00:48:31,085
drowning in an alien soup,

1135
00:48:31,225 --> 00:48:32,805
but I would say hello if I was standing

1136
00:48:32,805 --> 00:48:33,925
in a room with them, I can say,

1137
00:48:33,945 --> 00:48:35,205
- So the first thing I'd do is try

1138
00:48:35,205 --> 00:48:38,405
and work out what, what, how
they take an information.

1139
00:48:38,705 --> 00:48:40,845
Do they have ears or

1140
00:48:40,905 --> 00:48:44,365
or ability to auditorially process sound?

1141
00:48:44,785 --> 00:48:48,285
Do they have uh, eyes, do they have smell?

1142
00:48:48,425 --> 00:48:50,405
Do they have touch? What, what is it?

1143
00:48:50,405 --> 00:48:51,685
How do they process information?

1144
00:48:51,685 --> 00:48:54,005
And once you've established
that, you can try

1145
00:48:54,005 --> 00:48:56,125
and then work out how
to send them a signal.

1146
00:48:56,585 --> 00:49:00,165
Um, and the best way to do that
is probably to use iconicity

1147
00:49:00,855 --> 00:49:03,285
where there is correlations

1148
00:49:03,285 --> 00:49:05,325
between signals and, and what they mean.

1149
00:49:05,465 --> 00:49:09,765
So, um, the classic examples
from the 1970s of the,

1150
00:49:09,865 --> 00:49:11,405
the pioneer plaque, um,

1151
00:49:11,545 --> 00:49:14,845
and the Voyager golden record
going out, they've got visual,

1152
00:49:15,185 --> 00:49:18,205
um, images on them that
represent what humans look like

1153
00:49:19,025 --> 00:49:22,925
and um, where the earth
is, um, on a pul sail map.

1154
00:49:23,105 --> 00:49:25,205
And also, um, a little symbol

1155
00:49:25,205 --> 00:49:27,285
that it'll demonstrates hydrogen.

1156
00:49:27,625 --> 00:49:29,165
And the reason we did that is

1157
00:49:29,165 --> 00:49:32,885
because for us visual
images are highly iconic.

1158
00:49:32,895 --> 00:49:36,285
There is a strong correlation
between a picture of a human

1159
00:49:36,345 --> 00:49:37,765
and what a human looks like.

1160
00:49:38,345 --> 00:49:42,325
And so that's much more reliable
as a communicative signal,

1161
00:49:42,785 --> 00:49:45,245
um, with someone who doesn't
have the same language

1162
00:49:45,245 --> 00:49:47,085
as you than just using a word.

1163
00:49:47,085 --> 00:49:49,925
Because words are mostly quite arbitrary.

1164
00:49:50,145 --> 00:49:51,285
If I said to you human

1165
00:49:51,785 --> 00:49:53,965
and you didn't speak
English, there's no way

1166
00:49:53,965 --> 00:49:56,645
that you'd be able to work out
that human. It means human,

1167
00:49:56,945 --> 00:49:57,945
- Yes.

1168
00:49:57,945 --> 00:49:59,005
Iconography. There's also maths.

1169
00:49:59,095 --> 00:50:00,645
Maths seems like it would be universal.

1170
00:50:00,645 --> 00:50:02,245
- Yeah. And maths is quite iconic.

1171
00:50:02,465 --> 00:50:06,925
So when we wanna, um, kind
of send the number one

1172
00:50:07,385 --> 00:50:08,765
and the number two and the number three,

1173
00:50:09,055 --> 00:50:11,205
there is a direct like correlation

1174
00:50:11,205 --> 00:50:13,445
between the signals and what they mean.

1175
00:50:14,345 --> 00:50:17,885
Um, so maths is a very
iconic medium. Yeah.

1176
00:50:17,905 --> 00:50:20,405
And the good thing about
maths is it's all about trying

1177
00:50:20,405 --> 00:50:22,285
to work out common
knowledge with the aliens.

1178
00:50:22,285 --> 00:50:23,765
So what is it that they already know?

1179
00:50:24,185 --> 00:50:26,565
And if they're an advanced species with,

1180
00:50:26,565 --> 00:50:28,565
with advanced technology, they're likely

1181
00:50:28,705 --> 00:50:30,165
to have nailed maths.

1182
00:50:30,865 --> 00:50:33,565
And so we can send them
things like in contact.

1183
00:50:33,805 --> 00:50:35,365
I think it's the frequency of hydrogen

1184
00:50:35,385 --> 00:50:38,165
and hydrogen's the most
abundant chemical element in the

1185
00:50:38,365 --> 00:50:41,325
universe, which is why it's a
really good kind of foundation

1186
00:50:41,325 --> 00:50:43,765
to say, we know about
hydrogen, this is hydrogen.

1187
00:50:44,145 --> 00:50:46,365
Do you wanna chat or other the kind

1188
00:50:46,365 --> 00:50:48,685
of universal contestants like pie or,

1189
00:50:48,685 --> 00:50:51,445
or certain frequencies
like the fon sequence.

1190
00:50:51,905 --> 00:50:55,125
- It feels like to me the
best way that we've got

1191
00:50:55,125 --> 00:50:56,605
of exploring this stuff is probably

1192
00:50:56,605 --> 00:50:57,925
through science fiction, right?

1193
00:50:57,925 --> 00:50:59,445
Yeah. There's, I mean,
we've already talked about

1194
00:50:59,445 --> 00:51:01,285
independence day contact.

1195
00:51:01,995 --> 00:51:04,365
There's arrival, there's three body

1196
00:51:04,365 --> 00:51:05,365
- Problems.

1197
00:51:05,365 --> 00:51:06,885
And quite a lot of the people
in the post detection club are

1198
00:51:06,885 --> 00:51:07,965
science fiction authors

1199
00:51:07,965 --> 00:51:10,645
because these, they are
necessarily the people who've

1200
00:51:10,675 --> 00:51:13,485
thought about these
problems way more than,

1201
00:51:13,515 --> 00:51:14,725
than even scientists

1202
00:51:14,725 --> 00:51:17,165
because scientists are often distracted

1203
00:51:17,185 --> 00:51:20,325
by problems on earth, uh, before
they, they start worrying.

1204
00:51:20,345 --> 00:51:22,325
But problems in artist space,

1205
00:51:22,545 --> 00:51:24,885
- Dr. Hannah Little is
currently writing a book

1206
00:51:25,755 --> 00:51:28,285
exploring communication with aliens

1207
00:51:28,315 --> 00:51:30,245
through the lens of science fiction.

1208
00:51:30,825 --> 00:51:32,245
You can't get that just yet.

1209
00:51:32,545 --> 00:51:34,245
I'd like to thank Hannah, Jennifer,

1210
00:51:34,705 --> 00:51:36,765
and Matt for talking
to me for this episode.

1211
00:51:37,065 --> 00:51:39,365
And I'd like to thank you
very much for listening

1212
00:51:39,505 --> 00:51:41,805
and next month we'll be hearing
about something else from

1213
00:51:41,805 --> 00:51:42,925
this wonderful world of physics

1214
00:51:43,625 --> 00:51:47,925
and we might just have a
new jingle for the podcast

1215
00:51:53,155 --> 00:51:54,245
- Physics world.