Back to Biz with Katie and Boz: Bishop T.D. Jakes and Opal Tometi

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You can find jobs with the work life balance and salary you want, Plus build a resume and apply to multiple jobs in just one click. Start your search at career builder dot com. Hi everyone. I'm Katie Couric and I'm bozemas St. John and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. We had a very different episode plan for this week. We're going to talk about the future of education, specifically college education, with the president of Wesleyan where Bows went to college, and the president of U b A, where I went to college. But we couldn't stand by and watch what was transpiring in cities all across the country following the brutal killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis without addressing this issue. Bows. Yes, it's all compounded, you know. I think with even the killings of Brianna Taylor and ah Mod Aubrey, they've all fired up a need in this country for not just conversation but action. And I think it's the right thing for us to also act in getting a conversation with two really influential people who have a lot to say about this very moment in time, and you can help us to not just understand what is happening, but give us the history of what has happened and also help us feel hopeful for the future. So we decided to invite Bishop T. D. Jake's on the show He's just an extraordinary man, a good friend of yours, bows and someone I've interviewed through the years. How do you know Bishop Jake's Bishop Jake's legendary. You know his words from the Potter's House are ones that not only I listened to, but my mother listens to. I don't think the Sunday goes by without hearing Bishop Jake's booming voice in our home. But also I had him at house in January. We held a dinner um with Hillary Clinton for vital Voices, and he came and gave a beautiful prayer at the start. And I decided then and there we should be best friends. And so I'm enforcing that now by calling in this favor. And also Opal to Mattie, who I had not met until today, and she was quite extraordinary. Again, she's a friend of yours. All roads lead to bows, by the way. But tell us how you know Opal Opel. I've always been impressed by from Afar until a few years ago, UM, when I met her in person. She had been one of the co founders, as you said, of Black Lives Matter UM, an organization started seven years ago. But we are both of West African descent. She is Nigerian and I am gane In, and we find ourselves in many of the same conversations and now part of the same group. We call ourselves the West African voltron Waves for short. And so there's a group of about seventeen of us who all hail from different parts of West Africa, and we have conversations around so many things. But Opal certainly has a powerful voice in this space, and it just made sense that if she's my sister in the group, then we might as well also invite to hear her voice in public. Well, the conversation was amazing, and we began by just really asking people to share how they were feeling after this very trying, upsetting, disturbing, weak and Bishop Jake said he had never cried so hard for someone he didn't know, and began by sharing with us where his head and heart are right now. The raw bar, very tortuous, relentless and merciful behavior of it all was overwhelming. Uh, to see that, to view that, and to understand that there but for a camera, uh, a phone camera, we would never have gotten the truth about what happened, and that truth is still being challenged by every legal trick imaginable. But somehow, in a way, when I heard uh George Floyd on the ground screaming for his deceased mother and saying I can't breathe, I thought he became emblematic of an oppressed society that cannot breathe economically, socially, educationally. Uh, so many areas where the oxygen that would cause underserved communities to serve has been with hell and uh we've been pressed down on some more than others, but we've been pressed down on in a way that he becomes an emblem of a of a group of people that are suffering. And it's not just like it's Brown's, it's it's uh poor whites, it's Middle America. It's so many people now that fit within that context of of not having access to the oxygen of opportunities. Yes, yes, yes, I mean that says it's so poetically. In fact, I have felt very much the same, you know, in that this idea of or this image of being suffocated, you know, by a system that is not built to allow you to flourish or even simply to live, is what is probably most viscerally felt right now. Although it happens again and again and again. Um, Opal, we know that. Of course, you've also been in the conversation for quite some time, you know, having founded co founded Black Lives Matter. Um, what are your thoughts? How are you feeling currently? You know, to be honest, um, I'm feeling really deeply pained. I am grieving for people. UM. I am scared about what the future holds, and I know that that is what so many of our siblings across the country are experiencing in this moment. Um, I feel similar to what you will. We're both just sharing, just witnessing another life being taken in front of you for everybody to see in broad daylight, in such a barbaric and unconscionable manner. Um My, it's so deeply disturbing. It's so deeply disturbing, and I, um, I'm sad for us that this continues to happen. You know, it's been happening for generations. So we know we didn't get to this moment overnight. We know that there's been a build up. We know that it's been seven years since Black Lives Matter was first created. It's been so many years, and even in the midst of a pandemic we see that anti black racism continues to persist in such a violent manner, and it's disturbing, it's enraging. You see that there are people across the country who have just had enough, They have had enough, and so my heart is really with with them, with with all of us who are are sitting and looking and thinking. And my next is my daughter, Next is my son, Next is my auntie, my uncle. It is so real, and despite where we even might be on the socio economic you know, we still see that it's happening to so many of us. And we're always you know, one step removed, or one relationship or neighborhood could have removed from these kinds of stories and cases. And you know, I am, I am, I know that it's not just this one case either, right, So, we more recently heard about the story of Brianna Taylor, an e M T and essential worker who was gunned down in her own home in Louisville, Kentucky, and I'm just thinking about her, I'm thinking about a mont Verry are very I'm thinking about so many other people and so many names that we may not even know because it wasn't captured people weren't able to get to kind of use attention that we see happening in these other cases. But the reality is that people in their neighborhoods and their local communities are aware of these stories, and so they're out for the for the people, and the voy says that weren't heard at the larger discussion. They're out for their very neighbors and people within their own community and cities that we're also harmed by this extrajudicial violence that we're seeing in our communities. So I'm I'm pained, and then i also feel so hopeful because I'm looking around and I see that people have had enough and as they've sat through and you know, try to manage their time and their lives in the midst of this pandemic, they're they're taking stock of what's to come, and they're looking around and they're hearing these stories and they're saying, enough is enough. It's my duty to be out there and demanding justice. It's my duty to work and to ensure that we have a multiracial democracy that works for all of us. It's my duty to affirm and to work for a world where black lives matter. And in that I'm I'm very hopeful because we see a very vibrant multiracial movement for black lives. Bose, I know that you told me that your heart hurt and your spirit is tired, and you can hear the pain and Opal's voice. You can hear the pain and Bishop Jakes's voice, And I know that that you feel the same way. Yeah, yeah, I mean we you and I, UM, when we were talking about, you know, even having this episode, which of course we felt both felt that it was necessary to have the conversation and for us to have the conversation. UM, I felt tired. You know, I'm tired, and my spirit feels tired. And I think even in part of this conversation, UM, in talking about what we are seeing, maybe the lessons we can learn out of it, the ways that we can and move forward in it. Uh, if it's not too much to ask, I'm I'm also looking for some inspiration and some motivation, you know, because leadership requires a lot, It requires a lot of your heart, it requires a lot of your head, It requires a lot of innovation. And I was already tired from COVID and being inside and trying to figure out how to make businesses run and keep uh, you know, employees happy and motivated and all of that, and myself my own spirit and uh, with these incidents and as you said, open you know, those that are not captured, I think it has been. It has been. It just hurts. It hurts, and it's tiring. I also recognize the implications to all of us, you know. Certainly I am very much focused on blackness, you know, and my shirt today says I love black people, because I wanted everybody to remember that. You know, I have a love of black people, and we should have a love of black people. But I'm also aware as I interact with my colleagues that endeavor and in other spaces who are non black, um, that they are feeling things too right uh and and trying to also navigate their emotions. And Katie, I know that you and I had a conversation about these things, and certainly we're going to get to it in some of these conversations here. But I think you probably feel a lot of questions from um, non black people as well, and since you're a human being as well, you know, it would be good to understand how you feel. Well, I feel similar feelings that you all feel and some different feelings because of my life experience. I feel repulsed and and infuriated by the cavalier lack of humanity that we witnessed in the murder of George Floyd. And I feel embarrassed and ashamed and guilty, uh, because of all the benefits I've enjoyed and appreciated because of my skin color. And I think I've been thinking about that a lot. I think, like many people, I've had a a quiet evolution in my thought in probably the last decade or so, an appreciation of what white privilege actually means and in all its incarnations. And um, you know, I've been covering these stories for some time. First of all, Bishop Jake's you know you You and I had many conversations through the years on the Today Show. I started there in n and shortly after that Rodney King happened, you know. And I think I'm incredulous that this keeps happening and happening and happening. And some of it is an indictment of the news cycle because it gets a lot of attention and then it fades away and it gets a lot a lot of attention. But the accumulated pain, particularly for the Black community is something that I don't think i've I've appreciated enough. I think I've been a bystander, and I think I have a high degree of empathy in general as a person. But your empathy can only get you so far if your life experience is so dramatically different. So I'm trying to understand how I can be less of a bystander or less of a witness and help be a change agent. And because I think I am in a position where I can do that in my own way, with my own people who respect me or or think of me in a positive way. So I think it's been a tremendous wake up call. I think that you know what Opal was saying, how she's also hopeful. It does feel like this is different, This time is different. It's a watershed moment, and that it's an opportunity hopefully, I say, prayerfully that progress can actually be made and that we can start grappling with some of these insidious problems, seemingly intractable problems that are the product of generations of attitudes and an oppression, and finally began to figure out a way that we can make things right. And you know I wanted to jump in and say something, um if if we look at the murder in isolation, um and and the series of barbaric behaviors done to individuals, and the isolation of the system that empowers the behavior to continue, well, we will not. We will we will not really do George Floyd or mud or both of them, John or any of the many other days we could call any favors. If we don't acknowledge the fact that the police report had to be changed when the video came out, If we don't acknowledge that the autopsies differ depending upon who did them, If we don't take the deeper dive into a criminal justice system that in the ables this behavior and supports its own in this barbaric behavior. If we don't address that, then then it will remain a murder, whether it's tried as a murder or not, and it won't at least become a martyr to a bigger understanding of a system that seeks to correct itself. I am hardened and encouraged at the fact that this does not feel like a black people's problem this time. When I see flights in the street and brown people in the street, and young people in the street, and and old people. When I see behind the scenes executives and elected officials having deeper conversations, I'm kind of encouraged. I have been on the phone with a series of influential pastors, uh, black and white, a huge amount of white pastors, trying to come to grips with this, and what I tried to make people understand it's that being black is a lot like being a molested child. When somebody has power over you and they abuse that power over you. The same symptomatic conditions exist in our community that would exist in a molested child. In my forty three years of ministry working with molestation, one of the horrific things about it is to not be believed. And there's something about this time that that we're starting to feel like maybe somebody believed us this time. Because historically, if you bring it up your race baiting, uh, you're you rushed to judgment too soon. All the evidence is not in. We're waiting on due process. There were all of these little things that were said to thwart your voice out and to shut you up, and then the system chewed you up and spit you out in a barbaric way. Uh, with coarter pointed attorneys and and and and crafty judicial switches. Uh. There's something about this time that I'm starting to feel like maybe somebody's hearing us, Maybe somebody is believing us that we don't. It's bad enough to be mauled in the process, and it's worse to not be believed. And Uh, the the real, the real abuse is to be traumatized by the event and then be traumatized by the fact that you have to validate, you have to prove that this ugly, horrible thing is real and nothing that you present is accepted as legitimate. And on the heels of COVID nineteen and what that has done to us as a community, black, white, and brown, to be in isolation for all of these weeks and still not be safe, and still not be free to cover our mouths and our nose and our ears, and and to every time you go out the door sneeze or get a scratchy throat, you wonder are you next? For all of the hundred thousand people who died on ventilators, we have not recovered from from that. We we we have not recovered from medgar evidence. We've not recovered from Dr King. We've not recovered from Jim Crower slavery, only because the moment you're you're trying to get better, something else comes and takes you back and triggers you right back to that same spot again, like an abused child. There are triggers, and these triggers keep shooting into us until there's almost nothing left. I feel like the headboard of winning Mandela's bed post shut through with holes. In South Africa, I feel like, Uh, we have had to be silent because we have not been believed, and we've murmured amongst ourselves until all of a sudden, the murmuring has become a scream, a scream so loud and so piercing, uh that it has become inconvenient. And I'm listen, hang out in America, who wants to shut up the screen more than than they want to stop the abuse that was so powerful? And what you name Bishop? This kind of repeated abuse, this repeated violence over generations, historical trauma, current traumas, current abuse and affliction. Uh, these types of endemic hardships and our communities, and this is all why Black Lives Matter was created seven years ago. We knew we had to name that anti black racism, and our society was quite literally killing us, not only in the streets, not only at the hands of police, but we're looking at our economic system, the health care system, the education system. Um just abysmal impact when you look at our communities and how it's racialized, and how racism is quite literally cutting our life short. And it was because there was this deafening silence around how just how vastly different the black experiences in this country compared to our counterparts. And we had to name it because for far too long there was a silence. And what we say now is that to be silent is to be complicit. To be silent is to stand on the sidelines and act as if you have no power or agency to make a difference. And we can no longer have that. The status quo of a black pain and black death is it is intolerable. We can't live like this anymore. It's it's not only a symbolic death, but it's real material consequences in our lives. And so it's important for us to recognize that we have actually been flexing our muscle over the last seven been the years I and I say that I want to name it because I think it's important for us to understand that there have been people who've been speaking out. People have been speaking out ever since they were taken and slave ships and kidnapped. They've always resisted, We've always tried to fight um, We've always advocated for ourselves. We've always taken care of our people in our own communities. We've always done that. And I'm really looking at people like Sabrina Fulton, Trayvon Martin's mother, who also speaking out a lot in this moment, and it's just naming the fact that they are tired. We're all fed up. We don't want to see this happen again. I think what's important now to also recognize is that in this particular case, right, so, we've been talking so much about George Floyd, but it's not just one police officer. There were four involved. But not only the four involved, but you have entire precincts, you have entire budgets that are allocated to policing of our neighborhoods in this way, to allowing for the abuse to continue, and so our community members, the organizations that I work with, the movement that is growing every single day, is demanding that we defund the police that we take from their budgets that are already over overblown. They have so much at their disposal. As you're seeing even now, we see that there are militarized police presence all across the country. We see tanks, we've seen grenades, we've seen um all rubber bullets being used. We've seen a lot of military equipment within our local police force. And so I think we just have to reconcile with the fact that they are very armed, they're overly resourced, and it's high time that we begin to resource differently. We begin to adjust the budget to support communities being safe on their own terms. And the communities that I've worked with from New York to Atlanta to l A. Folks are demanding that they have the resources to seek job opportunities, that they're able to ride this subway for without fear of harassment, that they can jump the turnstyle if they don't have the resources, they can still take the train. Um. People are are looking for our education system to be well funded, social workers and mental health care workers to finally have the budgets that they deserve to deal with real crises in our communities, and that's what safety really looks like to us, and I think it's important that we name that, that we begin to collectively reimagine what safety looks like when we look at one another with eyes of dignity and respect um and we look to restore now versus punished and take away. So, in terms of UH actionable results coming out of this, I think the federal government has an opportunity, whether they use it or not, to penalize UH police departments that do not provide policing of themselves by denying funding to them as a way of incentivizing them to become more effective at respecting the law that they impose upon us. But where I but where I do think we need to raise their financial UH fluidity is in terms of the compensation that we pay the good police officers so that we can get more quality people into these positions and pay them on a level that requires a certain intellectualism about them, because I think one of the problems is the low pay scale and the low quality of police officers that are permeating the the police establishment that we're getting people some of everybody, poor training, poor background, poor compensation, long hours, uh, little respect on their side. And I think instead of buying more machine guns and and weapons and turning it into a military military state, maybe we could get more benefits and more compensations for the widows, for the wives of people who died in fires, pulling our babies out of burning buildings. I don't have a problem with police officers in general. I pastor many of them black and white, and I just just left the precinct where there there are good people. I have a problem with the silence of good people who will not speak out against the ones that are corrupt. I have a problem with the fraternity that is imposed in that society where value are required to be born to each other than you are to the law that you pledged and gave an those two uh. And I think that if we raise the pay, and raise the bar, and raise the standards until we had professional, more professional people in that position and showed more appreciation, and then then segregated those viral, infectious individuals that hide behind blue in such a way that we can lift the burden because the police officer, it's a bad time to be a police officer right now, and the police officers are bearing the shame of of of of some of them. Uh and and we have to find a way to restore the dignity to that office as well. 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Let's job it up at career builder. Are simple, customizable search tool lets you search for part time, full time, and even work from home jobs so you can find a job that fits your lifestyle. Get started now at a rear builder dot com. Let's return to our conversation with Bishop Jake's and Opal to Mandy, why is it so hard Opal to weed out the bad apples? You know a lot of people on my social media channels were saying unions and arbitration, not to mention what Bishop Jake's was saying, this thin blue line where they protect each other at all costs, and there are good police officers. But how does the culture need to change, How does the process need to change so that we can separate the bad, bad police officers and get them out of there. It's not that there's just one you know, police officer that's you know, bad apple, or one good three good three. I don't it's I don't think it works like that. We have deeply entrenched cultures, and we have deeply entrenched histories, um, and we have laws continue to change to protect this institution. And as we look back in our history, policing actually what began as slave patrols. You know, I'm gonna be really honest and prank with you all because I think this is a time for us to to have these types of you know, radically real conversation where we don't hold back. But the history of of of law enforcement really is rooted and the capturing of people who were trying to just get free. And we have years later, this law enforcement that continues to exhibit such lethal racial bias. Listen, Racism is rampant and it runs throughout our society period. You know, it's it's the corporate if it's the education system, it's a healthcare system. Is there And the problem is that we have racist policies, racist values, racist ideologies that operate in less than a second. And there are reports that show this. There is a lot of data that shows is and it's happening. You know, law enforcement are making decisions based on these entrenched biaces that they can't even conceive of themselves. They're not processing it, they're not conscious of it. It's called implicit bias because it's this unconscious dehumanization that is happening. And so when you're empowered to use lethal force and you have these types of biases that are pervasive throughout the society, then we do see these types of outcomes. We do see that black people are the are experiencing the acute impact of racial bias when it comes to policing. This is just a fact, and I think we just have to get honest about that we have this history and that racism is not only in this particular profession field. But the problem is they're able to use these guns. These people are not you know, they're not trained social workers or mental health care workers, and so they're coming into various situations and operating with the main tool that they know to use, and that's forced and that's violence. And so we're seeing the lethal impact of that. Hopeful it's exactly correct. The other thing that makes it so damning is as an executive, as a CEO, as a leader, as a pastor, when you have masses of people, I'll re see thousands and thousands of people. You're going to have people who go rogue. You're gonna have people who have mental health issues. You're gonna have people who do things that are reprehensible. But if you don't judge that, if you don't, it's not what happens, it's how you handle it. If you don't handle it, If if you've got a d A that's in the pocket with the police department, if if you've got a plea bargaining deal going on with somebody who's broke, that makes a plea bargaining deal that makes him locked up for life. We've got people in jail waiting to to to to even see a judge, sometimes a year, two years through the misappropriation of the criminal justice system. We all know it's wrong. It's about partisan issue. It's not like the Democrats are the only ones who are saying it's wrong, where the Republicans are the only ones who said. Both parties are admitting the criminal justice is flawed. Even the President is admitting that the that the criminal justice system is flawed. The problem is nobody wants to fix it. And it is a system. It's not just a person, and it's not just the case. It is a system. And I think that's what my sister is pointing to is this is what we mean by systemic racism. The fact that two men who previously had been involved with the police department could shoot to death a black boy who is jogging and go for months walking in the street, whereas we can't take a cigar from a cigar shop without being thrown down in the floor and arrested immediately. This misappropriation of justice where you can go in and murder people having a Bible class in a church service, and the police officers take you out to get a sandwich at Burger King, not shove your face down into a pavement, into your your mouthless bleeding. This is not done in a fair and equitable way. And you, you, I mean anybody, You could be blind and see the difference and the distinctions between the two. But there is a comfortable blindness that comes with privilege, because when you are a privileged person, you can choose the community you want to see. But when you are an underprivileged person, you have to exist in two realities, the reality that you're born into and the reality that you bank with, the reality that you live in, and the reality of the community you hope to climb into. And so you can you cannot. You cannot be a black person with the g e d and not understand white culture. But you can be a white person with a PhD and not understand Black culture. That's what a press. That's brilliant. I'm gonna I'm gonna quote you on that, Bishop Jakes, because I think you're so right. But you know, I wanted to ask you because you said Democrats know that they're the system is broken. Republicans know the system is broken. You said, even the President knows the system is broken and needs to be fixed. So why isn't it being fixed? What are the obstacles that keep impeding progress? That's a great question. I wish I was smart enough to have the answer to that one. I can say that there's been some small rides beginning stress made on a federal level as it relates to the criminal justice system. I oversee the Texas Offenders Reentry Initiative, of which we've taken almost forty thou people through our programs. So I live in this reality, and there has been some work done on a federal level, it has not been enforced on a state level, where the vast majority of African Americans are incarcerated, seventy percent of which are incarcerated for non valid crimes, many of which are incarcerated for laws that have now changed and have now been legalized, but they're still incarcerated. Uh, it's it's justice can be bought in this country. It's not whether you're guilty or innocent. It's it's the type of attorney and the investigation and all of that. So if you don't have access to capital, you don't have access to justice. And those All of these things are problems that need to be fixing. It's a tangled way, and I'm not absolving us of all responsibility. We need to be more engaged send the political process. We need to be voting more in the mid term elections, and we have a tendency to focus on the presidential elections and not the mid terms where the d as are chosen and the people who are making these kinds of decisions and holding them accountable. We don't tend to know who to hold accountable, and we need desperately white people and brown people to hold them equally accountable. I don't think there is a notion in our community that in order to get a good lawyer has to be black and in order to get something done you have to be black. But I think America needs to dispel that myth by white, black and brown all screaming out, what is your agenda for the black community? How are you handling the trials? Because historically we have rewarded das based on how many people they locked up. So when you start talking about cultures that are existing, the tougher you are on crime, the more likely you are to be elected. Instead of rewarding people for using a more reason or balanced approach. One other quick footnote. If I am White in America and I have a drug problem, it's a sickness and I go to rehab. If I'm Black in America and I have a drug problem, I'm a criminal and I go to jail. It totally is a matter of which side of the city you live in, how it is perceived or handled. That's atrocious, that's utterly atrocious. It can be the same drug. And on one side of the street, I get mercy and compassion and oh, our present thoughts are with you, and you're going into a treatment center and all the curies that you have, And the other one, oh my god, you're a criminal. Dragon into jail and lock them away as long as possible. Sevent for nonvalent crimes, incarcerated. So when our women are looking saying where are the men, I know exactly where they are. They're locked up. When our children are asking where are the fathers, a huge majority of them are locked up for things that we don't do. We don't commit crimes more readily more frequently than our white counterparts, but we are seven times more likely to be incarcerated when we commit the same crime. That's a real problem. So when you try to get us to to trust, it's hard to trust. Going back to Opal's point, the same people who in forced slavery, the same people who turned water hoses on us during Jim Crow and the civil rights movement, the same people that pressed our next into the ground. It's hard to feel safe. When you see a police officer patrolling your community. You feel, oh my god, thank god, they're watching out for me. I'm good when we see blue lights flash behind us. I don't care how much money we have, how many degrees we have, or what university we matriculated from. There is an anxiety that inherently comes upon us, both physically and ancestrally, because we feel the threat that anything could happen. Wow, that was that was just Oh, I don't I don't even think I can continue to articulate because I'm feeling very emotional and all the things that you're saying, um and certainly even you know on social media, I've been saying that I don't want the responsibility of fixing this, you know anymore. I've been I've been so tired of the question, and I do recognize what you're saying bishop about, you know, participating in that. There are certain responsibilities that black people have in order to make sure that the oppression that we're feeling systematically does not continue. But it is so tiring to continue to have to answer the question, but what do I do? You know, how do I do it? From those who are not necessarily feeling this every day and not fielding those questions every day, and perhaps not even feeling the responsibility of having to answer the question, but rather push it off on the people who are being affected disproportionately by it. And I know that opal they're of probably thoughts that you have around that too, But I would love to also talk about, you know, what happens next. You know, in our conversations around this issue, there are many I mean, Katie and I have had so many conversations around what happens next and what people can do, because we certainly understand the fact that these are conversations that need to be had, but they're difficult to have, you know, especially if you are non black and you want to have a voice in the conversation, perhaps you say things that will take you out. You know, there's the danger of that, certainly There have been many colleagues of mine over the past few days who have asked, what can I do? What can I say? I want to say something. I don't just want to sit by, you know, as Katie was saying, but but what what are the solutions? You know? How do how how do we help? I guess as my question um, because there are certainly people who want to have a voice, who want to participate in the dialogue, and who have good intentions, but will not do it out of fear that they will also miss step. The greatest justice is the will of the people themselves. And I am not just talking about black people, and I'm not just talking about black people in the midterm elections, so I certainly think we need to be represented there. This is not a black people's problem. This is an American crisis. And we are standing right on the edge of going back into visuals of bringing in the armies and shooting down people in march and things that that are so reprehensible they're scary, or on the other extreme of burning down cities and town We're teetering with violence against violence, wicked against wicked, evil against evil, and all we really want there's a cheaper, easier, calmer solution, the easier thing than all of the expensive things that we're getting ready to do to EA, to other It's just justice. Justice is free. It would cost less, It would be better for the budget. It would be the right thing to do, to call right right and wrong wrong. Then it would be to spend millions and billions of dollars so that we can dramatize and exacerbate what is already a horrific situation. And I am concerned right now because I really don't know what tomorrow is going to bring. I don't know when I wake up in the morning what I'm gonna see on the screen. I don't know whether it's going to be safe to come out of my house. I don't know whether I need to call all of my grown children back home and huddle together for fear of our lives. I don't know. Because there's such a feeling of powerlessness, I don't know what's going to happen. To understand, the people who are concerned about the burnings and and and and and the rioting and the looting and all of that, and that needs to be stopped. On the other hand, that if we keep treating that which is a symptom rather than treating that which caused the symptom. We're going to continue to treat symptoms without cure. We have a cure for this. It's just justice. It's just right. It's already been written, it's just not being applied. We don't have to recreate it. We just have to follow through on it in a blind fashion, irrespective of race, colored, gender, or orientation. That's right. That is absolutely right. And I'm I'm so happy to hear you name that so plainly and so simply. Um. Why we created Black Lives Matter in the first place was in essence to demand justice. But like capital j justice not just one person um has a case or there's one indictment or one jury case or what. No, no, no, no no. We need wholesale, systemic justice. We need a transformation of our society and that requires embedding justice all across the board, embedding equity all across the board. Um, repairing the years and years of damage that's been caused. You know, so much of what we're seeing even now, and why the the process are so large and why it's more of a rebellion is because people have been living in destitution. People have been living and dealing with so much hardship. The pandemic was really and the pandemic is still going on. Let me just say it like that, but it really symbolizes that the bottom has fallen out for so many people. This country is not working for them. The way that is currently set up is not working. When you have within a month, month and a half, thirty forty million people um calling and meeting on an employment when you have people who are without healthcare overnight, when you have entire you know, communities, and you have tens and thousands of people needing to use the soup kitchen with an amount of of a week losing their job. You know, people are are struggling, and that means that they were already living handsome mouth. I think this pandemic has so exposed and laid bare such inequities that existed that that coupled with situations like Ahmad are Very or George Floyd, it just it almost just poured gasoline on this simmering problem. And I think in some ways it just it's undeniable, just as that video is undeniable about what happened to this man at the police officer with his hand in his pocket as this man is crying for his life. There's just there's there's no way to explain it except for to see it as it is. And you know, when when you all talk about justice, Bishop Jakeson and Opal and Bows, you know, I hear this and I say yes, And as a white American, I think, what can I do? What can I do? Because I feel it's such an overwhelming problem, and you think systemic racism, you have to change the systems. How in the world do we go about doing that? How can I be not just an ally but joined forces with you and for other people listening who do have different life experiences than you do. How can how can we be there? And I know disposes what you don't want, but I need guidance, I need help, and I need your wisdom that I don't think that you have to be a woman to speak up against rape. I don't think you have to be a child to speak up against child abuse. And I don't think you have to be black to speak up against racism. And I think we need your voice, we need your vote, we need your outrage. That one of the things that has blessed my soul was to see somebody angry that didn't look like me. I cannot tell you how therapeutic sometimes two tears. To see the moments in this process where police officers have taken off their guns and joined in the march. To see the moments in this process where lines of white people have stood in between the police and the black marchers are just glimmers of hope. Where you want to say black lives matter, That's how you show black lives matter by joining in and lifting your voice. You don't the notion that you have to have the same experience in order to have the same outrageous not true. You do not have to have the same experience to speak up when a child as abused. We have laws in place that are clear and detailed about what happens when a child even mentions that they're being abused in this country, and child protective services and this and that, and we all know exactly what you do immediately. And I don't want you to feel a foreigner from this pain any longer. I want you to come and sup and sit down at the table and and feel the pain and join in it. I regardless to whether that is your background or not like I sat with you when when women were being abused in the workplace, like I sat with children who were being molested in the home. I don't want the wall to be built around the color of our skin. I wanted to be around the ideology for which we want our country to represent. We have, at this present moment, a decision to make as it relates to what does it mean to be an American? And if it is going to be inclusive, then we we live up to the red, white, and blue. And if it's not, let's just make the flag one color and take all of the different colors out of it. We have a decision to make it this moment, and I'm sixty some years old. It doesn't make a whole lot of difference for me, but for my grandchildren, for my little grandchildren who are driving me crazy and leaving toys all over the place that I step on in the middle of the night. I would like to go to sleep one day and lay down in my grave knowing that I left this world better than I found it. And I don't think you have to be black to feel that way. I don't think you have to live in South Chicago to feel that Way or Watts or Harlem. You just have to We aren't asking white people to be black. We are as king Americans to be human. And I think that's something within our grasp that we all can do. And use your voice and your connections and your associations and your connections with the CEOs and go to your country club and demand better and demand better of your elected officials, not because you're black, not because you understand blackness, but because you are a human. Yeah, let me pick up on the conficients point because I'm so moved by this, like, demand better, and we need to demand better, and we do need all hands on deck right now. Um, this is clearly bigger than any one of us. Uh. We have a movement that is vibrant, it is very leaderful. So you'll see people from you know, all walks of life, all identities and tenders and so on, all walks of life all over. So we are a very leaderful movement. But what we're calling for and what better looks like for us, is stop the harm. First of all, stop the harm, right. We need to be demanding that. That's basic, basic, basic minimum, and then we need a repair of the damage. Right. So it's not just enough to say, Okay, where the law enforcement is, you know, stop doing this, stop doing that. No, there have been families who have lost loved ones, There are people who are wrongfully locked up, There are there are families that have been torn apart for decades, and we're tired of it. And to repair the damage and the pain and the hurt is the only way to make things quote unquote better. That is justice, not just to stop the violence. But no, okay, you've you've harmed somebody, So what is the compensation? How do you repair it? How do we make sure the neighborhood is rebuilt? Those are the kinds of conversations I believe that we need to be having because real safety for our communities is the ability for people to to live, the the ability for people to love the people, the ability for people to be able to work and go to and fro without fear of violence and fear for their lives. I just want to say this one little point. Marching in the streets and and and exercising our Amendment rights to be able to speak up and to to to lift our voice is important and it draws attention, but everybody on here knows that real decisions are not made on sidewalks in the street. They are made in boardrooms, in business rooms, behind the scenes where a lot of our voices don't get to be heard. And so to those influential people white, black or brown who make it into the room where decisions are made. Because decisions are not made in marches, attention is drown in a march. And what happens is we've seen a lot of marches. We've seen the women march right after the election, We've seen the Latinos march, We've seen black people march. Now we're saying to everybody, march and it draws attention and it gets pressed, and that's good. But if it doesn't go beyond the public display of volumeless activity and headlines and ratings and pay skills that are based on ratings, down to the boardrooms and the country clubs where real decisions are made, that's where we need a revolution. Thank god for what you're doing on the street, but where we really need a revolution is in the room where it happens. And most of the time we don't get in that room. It's easy to do something wrong when you try to do it for us without us. You cannot do it for us without us. That means that we can't have men making decisions about women, and women are not sitting at the table, and you can't have white people making decisions about what you think are to happen in black communities if you don't bring in black thought leaders and bring us around the table. And there are plenty of them. It's not like we don't have smart, bright, black influential people who can really address this. It's just that they are never invited into the room because we want we want calm more than we want right, and we're not willing to be uncomfortable and we're not willing to have disruption. But any CEO will tell you that if a company never has disruption, it never grows. And so the challenge today is to stop saying that there there are no black leaders. They are absolutely They're graduating every day with doctorate degrees who are articulate and intelligent and well spoken, who can speak to issues, and there's influence, and then there's influence that they're not the same thing. Let's stop just calling on people because they have a lot of followers and start getting thought leaders in who have a a a sere yeah, a strategy. I was find the word a strategy for the struggle, and they are here and they are waiting to be ushered into the room. The baton needs to pass. I'm not saying that black list matters is over, but it needs to pass because even black people only think you're doing something if you're holding up a sign. But real power is behind closed doors. And we need both things going on, not one or the other. We need both things going on, the public display and the private discussion, and that will bring about a change when we come back. Bishop Jake's and Opal to Matty and Bozma St. John on the fierce urgency of now still living in and manually taking notes. Start the new year with auto dot ai to generate automatic notes for meetings, interviews, or lectures. With auto dot ai, you and search the meeting notes, insert images, play back the audio, and share them with your friends or coworkers. You can capture action items, remember meeting details, and keep everyone informed. Auto dot ai works for in person or virtual meetings like Zoom, Microsoft Teams, and Google Meet. Sign up for free at auto dot ai or download the app for free auto dot ai. That's O t t e R dot Ai. That time you got home from a week of double shifts and your dog didn't recognize you. Let's go. He hates me, hates me? Do you want to treat? You want to treat? You knew it was time for something new. Let's drop it up at career builder. You can find jobs with the work life balance and salary you want, plus, build a resume and apply to multiple jobs in just one click. Start your search at career builder dot com. Now back to our conversation with Obel, to Madi and Bishop Jake's who share their glimmers of hope for the future. I am encouraged that we are talking like we have for for a long time, been like a bad marriage where nobody said anything and as long as the house was quiet, at least we weren't fighting. Uh. In spite of the disruption of the conversation, I think this is very healthy. Even if you say the wrong thing, and even if you get uh, Jack did the conversation so to speak, uh, to let your voice be heard. America is trying to heal itself, less to destroy itself. So I'm encouraged that we're having a conversation. It is far healthier to have a debate even if we don't agree than it is for us to have political correctness and be silent about suffering. Secondly, I am encouraged by the fact that both parties are starting to think that the black vote is within their reach. I think it is bad when we when we sell ourselves completely out to a party and not a policy, and hold both sides accountable to policies, not parties, but policies that benefit our communities in a way that spawns creativity on both sides. To compete for this volume of votes that we have and then get out there and vote to make a change. I'm encouraged by that. I'm encouraged by some of the things that I have seen happening in terms of government trying to find itself and fix itself. It's not there yet, but the conversations are emerging between Democrats and Republicans. Some of the most important fields have passed because they joined together and stopped fighting for a few days and decided to make some decisions. All of those things are really encouraging to me that we can get through this, and if we do it now, the fierce urgency of now has never been more appropriate to be said than at this moment, because we stand we're dealing with a pandemic and economic collapse and a sociological collapse all at the same time, and we cannot wait to fix this months and months away. Our economy won't do it, the pandemic won't do it, and the sociological construct of our community demands that we fix it now and that needs to happen right early. Wow. Ohful hard act to follow, although something tells me you'll do it. To be honest, you know, what makes me hopeful is that we are actually having this discussion, that we are in the midst of this challenge, that we see that there is an obstacle, and within that obstacle, I believe there's an opportunity. M We have an opportunity to really address generations upon generations of injustice. We have an opportunity right now to defy uh the skills of justice. And I think what we're seeing is that there are people who have said, enough is enough. Let's have that conversation right now. We're demanding it take place because for too long, our lives were lived as though we were we were a secret right we were living in the shadows of injustice, having to tolerate the injustice um time and time again. And so folks forced the conversation. They've forced not only the conversation, but they're forcing a course of action to take place. I think the reason that we do see the corporations, the reasons we do see elected officials and other people engaging in these discussions right now, is because people said, you know, enough is enough. We're fed up, and we need to have this discussion now because my life matters, and pandemic or not, people were already living on the brink. And then you see the ways in when the pandemic also demonstrates how racism is playing out in our society. When you have one third of the pen the people who've died of COVID DITEAM are African Americans, it just tells you that we've already been living with such dire concerns and dire needs. And it's not just black people, it's people of all hues. And so what I see now is as my moment of hope, is that I think the obstacle itself shows us the way it shows us that we have these various entry points to deal with the injustice. You know, we see people who aren't able to pay their rent or their mortgages. Okay, moratorium, let's call for the moratorium. We see people who don't have money for their food and day to day expects. Okay, let's have this discussion and a plan of action around a universal basic income. Let's have these real, frank and honest conversations about what it's going to take to keep people safe and living in their homes and with their families together and without the violence that we're experiencing as we walk down the street or re engage in every day forms of life. So I think that the fact that we're in this and that we're in this moment where there are massive rallies and protests and so on, is actually an opportunity for us to look ourselves, you know, in the eyes for the nation and are elected officials to hold up a mirror and say, what can I actually do? How can I make a just solution right now? How can I partner with local community groups and community members who have actually been devising plans around these injustices for many, many years. So many people have already done all the reports, They know the numbers, they know exactly what kinds of checks and balances are needed for accountability to take place. And then everyday people also have an opportunity, so our allies who really should be co conspirators for justice alongside us, They have opportunities to donate, to have courageous conversations with their family members, to understand what the power and the privilege they have within their jobs, and to make demands of change within the spaces that they occupy. I think everybody has an opportunity to use their power and their privilege, and not even just an opportunity, but an obligation. At this point, when you see this level of injustice taking place, there becomes a point where it's like no, no, no, you don't have a you have you don't have a choice now you the only choice you really have is to be a part of justice or know that you're impeding justice. And what I'm hoping is that people will want to know that they are found on the right side of history and that they'll be with us in this pursuit for justice. Amen. Amen, Amen, and amen, Thank you both. You know this was such a such a moving and important conversation and I'm so grateful to just be on the receiving end, and I just want to jump to what Bows was saying about people feeling nervous about being part of the conversation, and to that end, I realized that sometimes words can be insensitive and triggering. And I had a situation not too long ago when I was discussing an interview I had done with Denzel Washington, who I said, I deeply admired and but he um We had an awkward, kind of uncomfortable interview, and I mentioned how I felt a little. I felt a little shaken by that interview, and I understand that the way I used language was, as I said, triggering for some people. That received was received in a way that I did not intend to to sound. And I'm curious for your perspective on the importance of language as we navigate this trauma that people have endured, and to be respectful of that, but also forgiving for people who are unintentionally hurtful. I think it all begins with with mutual respect and real relationships. Relationships that are only done in public are always a deficient. You can't use a black or white or brown person as a prop. You have to have real relationships and eat with us and talk with us, and eat with you and laugh and talk with you. We have a saying in the church, the Kingdom of God advances amongst friends, And I think that's where the conversations begins, when you actually befriend somebody who's perspective or racial hue is different from yours, because friends are forgiving and friends are confrontational, and and friends will kind of prep you for the larger conversations with people who don't get you, because friends understand your heart even when your mouth goes self and a beautiful way to put it, you know. I think if there's one takeaway that I would challenge everybody that's listening at us today is to go beyond being polite and actually develop a friendship with somebody that's different from you and go eat and have lunch and talk and laugh and play and take the risk of being reprimanded because your friendship should be strong enough to handle it, and then go mainstream. Don't hide behind Twitter and say things that that and become a bully. Take the risk. The Kingdom advances amongst friends, and we are we are family on this planet. COVID nineteen teaches us that we are family, The whole family got infected, the whole world got shut down. Nine eleven taught us what Americans were, black, Republican, white, Muslims, Jews, gay, straight. Everybody died together, burned up together. Let's stop allowing our enemies to be smarter than us. If our enemies know we are one, then we should know we are one. And let's broach the conversation by building a relationship strong enough to accommodate a mistake. I love all of that, and I love that question that you asked. Um. I'll say this that words do matter, right, um. And obviously I know that from personal experience, knowing that these three simple words that we put out into the world made such um impact and resonated so deeply with people from all walks of life around the world. And so we know that words have meaning. And you know, I'm here with the bishop, and so I want to get a little bit into my my own, my own faith. My dad's a pastor, and I grew up around a lot of ministers, and I can't help but think of the Scripture when they say that that life and death is in the tongue, right, So there's a lot of power in our words, and we have to be mindful of what we are sharing, what we're saying. We have to be not mindful to name when there's an injustice going on in the land. We have to be mindful because we need to bring life to the situation. And quite literally, Black Lives Matter was a love note for black people to remind ourselves that we matter, even if the society or the systems are saying negative things or doing negative things to us. We used it as a message to remind ourselves of our own power, of our own beauty, of our agency, of our worthiness, whether we have money or we don't, whether we're from one country or another. We use it as a reminder of all of that. And it was quite you know, simple, quite literally, both a message of love but also a demand on our society. And so now I'll say that, you know, words matter, and while we're engaged in this longer journey to justice, there will be mistakes and no one's going to get up perfect. But what is so powerful about the age that we're living in is that we have all sorts of resources and tools to educate ourselves, you know, to do the deep work. There are all sorts of programs and anti racists, you know, books and working in clue groups and clubs, and you know even you know, different departments and companies and governments, and so I think there's a lot of opportunities to engage in the practice of justice, right, both theory and the actual live practice, which is not always pretty. Right, it's not always pretty, but because we're committed to building a world where all of us have a chance to to thrive, a world where we're all respected and given the opportunity to tap into who we are and the best of ourselves, and we want to live up to that. So we have a duty to engage in those tough conversations, to to hear the hard truths, to name it, to own it, and to show up and keep on showing up, because that's what it is. This is life, and just like everything else, we live, we learn, we grow, we keep on. You're still part of this community, You're still part of this world. Making a mistake doesn't um negate your presence or your contribution. We need people to learn, and we need people to model their learnings and continue. And I think it's you know, a powerful example when I see you know, folks own it and and just continue going and continue going. I love that, love all of that. I know that you guys are so awesome. Really, um, I think that's I mean, gosh, this this is great. And I hope people will really really learn as much as I did from just Uh. Let's need to what you all have to say and give your giving me a lot to think about and Bose, I think probably they're giving you a lot to think about. Two right. Well, Listen, I came into this very tired, I am leaving very motivated. So I certainly appreciate the words of the bishop and of course, my sister opal Um, I can't thank you enough for this very honest conversation. Um. And I think that a lot of people are going to really take a lot out of it. I mean, we certainly are at a place where my hope is that this is a turning point in that we will find new ways of being that will evolve our culture and our communities, and that people will find inspiration in what you have said, whether they are black or white or brown. Uh, that we will all find ways to make our societies better. So thank you again so much for the conversation. Let me just close with one thing to both of my new the in sistors of what a privilege in and honor it is uh to hear your wisdom and see your smiles and and hear your perspectives and and learn and grow. And I have been inspired. Uh. And to Katie Curic, who is is absolutely a journalistic legend, thank you for propelling our voice beyond the border so where anyone else amongst us could carry it. Uh. Your influence, your background, your massive journalistic career enables our thoughts to be propelled onto platforms that none of us could reach without you. And when you ask what can you do, You're doing it right now. Thank you so much. Bishop, You're making me cry. I wish I could go go through this computer screen and give you a hug, but I know I'm not allowed to do that anyway, So I'll send you a virtual hug and Opal, such a such a privilege to meet you. Likewise, this is great. Thank you all so much. This is such an important conversation, truly, truly, thank you. Wow Bows, those two really delivered. I am so moved and inspired from that conversation. I cannot thank you enough for inviting both of them to the podcast. I think It's been such an important conversation and I'm really proud of the way that you even asked questions that perhaps made you feel uncomfortable, and I hope that you are more comfortable now. And for anyone who's interested in reading or understanding more, We've put together a detailed list of anti racist resources, which you can find in the podcast description and on our social media channels too. Until next time, I'm Katie Couric and I'm bosmas St John and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. Thank you so much for listening everyone, and Bows, thank you for being here. Thank you so much. I love you, Katie, love you too. Back to Biz with Katie and Bows is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Curk Media. The executive producers are Katie Kurrik, bosmas St John, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. The associate producers are Derek Clements, Eliza Costas, and Emily Pinto. Editing by Derrek Clements and Lauren Hansen. Mixing by Derrek Clements. Special thanks to Adriana Fasio. For more information about today's episode, go to Katie Kirk dot com. You can also follow Katie Kirk and bozmas st John on Twitter and Instagram. For more podcasts. For my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 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