Katrina Adams

00:00:04
Speaker 1: This episode of the Racket Magazine podcast is brought to you by Sergio Chucchini, offering iconic tracksuits, classic Polos, and the new Young Line sneaker. Originally designed in the mid nineteen eighties. It's our favorite spring silhouette and it's back. You can get it now at Sergiotuccini dot com and follow them on Instagram at Sergio Tacchini Underscore Official. For updates, Enter the promo code racketmag at checkout and you'll get thirty percent off your order. Well, Rene, we took some time off and we're back this week. It's nice to hear your voice. And who are we talking to.

00:00:52
Speaker 2: We are talking to former WTA player, former USTA president Katrina Adams.

00:01:00
Speaker 3: Not a former friend, still a friend. I've known Katrina for a wow.

00:01:04
Speaker 2: I don't to say how long because that would age us both, but it's been a really long time, like decades.

00:01:08
Speaker 3: It was great to have her on the pod this week.

00:01:10
Speaker 2: We thought it was incredibly appropriate to have someone like her, obviously a former player, someone who's had such a great leadership role in tennis over the past fifteen years since retiring, so it was great to have her on board. I think it was really important for us to take that time away from releasing the pod for the last couple of weeks. As you brought up when we decided to do that, I think it's a really good time for us to sit back and listen, and so we decided to do that over the last couple weeks. But we're really proud that this week we're coming out with something that's very important for all of us to listen to.

00:01:46
Speaker 1: It speaks to the moment, obviously, the moment being all of us trapped in a pandemic, seeing tennis sort of in shit its way back in certain parts of the world, but more importantly, here in the Stays and here in New York, we're in the middle of a long, overdue and righteous uprising against police brutality and against racism and white supremacy. And I think, you know, just to acknowledge, we're two privileged white ladies trying to have a conversation about this, and you know, there are fantastic places to listen to read. I would really recommend anybody who wants to go deeper into this and just listen to this podcast anyway. The Body Serve had a fantastic episode out in the past ten days called I Hope that fish eats you, which was nami Osaka's response to someone on social media who questioned her race and nationality. But that brings up an interesting point of conversation, which is, you know, we've tried to have Katrina on the podcast for a very long time, but what a great coincidence that we were able to get her now. But on social media, this conversation has extended into the tennis world. You know, we've seen Nami Osaka, Slan Stevens, Francis Tiaco, and I'm listening black names, not because they're black and they're talking about it, but just those are the ones that are seeming to do a lot of the heavy thing. What are you seeing out there?

00:03:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, and let's not forget Coco Goff. I mean great for.

00:03:05
Speaker 2: Me is it were seeing not only black tennis players doing this, and it's the young black tennis players that are really showing up in this fight. And it just reminded me of you know what Billy Jean King stood up for so long ago with the fight for equality for women. This is a moment that they've really grabbed a hold off and said it is our time. We're the ones that need to stand up and make a difference because social media now is so important for the next generation, and they have put it out there on social media. Obviously, we've seen some other examples. I don't want to forget also Chander Ruben. There's so many players.

00:03:40
Speaker 1: That we some some white players, Amanda and a Samova tweeting about equality, Riley Opelka going to protests in Los Angeles. You know, I think it's a moment for white people to you know, shut up and listen and try to deal with our white fragility, but also try to do some of the work right and that's not happening across the board in the tennis world.

00:03:59
Speaker 3: Among white people. No.

00:04:01
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, look, I've had some really tough conversations over the last three weeks about this with some very very very very close friends of mine, and it has not been an easy conversation. And you know, some let's say fishes in relationships are happening because based on some of this.

00:04:19
Speaker 3: But again, the most.

00:04:20
Speaker 2: Important thing is for us is to be allies for our brothers and sisters, and so I think this is an opportunity for us as you said to sit back. I, you know, just finished reading White Fragility myself, and I think it's important for us to educate ourselves in what we can do as allies to help this cause. And it's been an enlightening, very important couple of weeks in this world. And you know, our little podcast I hope sheds a little light on that somewhat today with the very very very brilliant Katrina Adams. And you know, I hope everyone just sits back and listens and has an open mind to these things. But yes, I am super proud of the majority of our Tennis community and what they've stood for over the last few weeks. And you know, I mean names like Kim Cleisters for example. I mean, there's just so many great allies out there that really want the right thing for equality in this world.

00:05:13
Speaker 3: All right, Well, with's no further ado. Here is Katrina Adams on our podcast. We are both sitting in the same apartment.

00:05:28
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's coronavirus appropriate, but we have also been by ourselves for about it feels like half a year, but Caitlin and I are actually in the same mamma in my apartment in New York and we have the great pleasure of having my very long time I don't want to get into how long, because that will aide us both amazing friend, Katrina Adams, former WTA player, former great player, beat mine but a few times on the court.

00:05:52
Speaker 3: And also, god.

00:05:55
Speaker 2: Your list is getting longer, my friend, former USTA president, obviously former player.

00:06:03
Speaker 3: What are you president of the njt L.

00:06:05
Speaker 2: I mean, there's so many things about you, Katrina that you've like run the gamut, you're now on the i TF board. There's so much so I welcome Katrina Adams to the Recam magazine.

00:06:15
Speaker 3: Podcast this week. What's up?

00:06:16
Speaker 1: Go?

00:06:17
Speaker 3: How's it going? So it's been an interesting couple of weeks, my friend.

00:06:22
Speaker 1: Before we get into the moment, can you tell us for people who are used to seeing you running the show at the US Open, being the president at the USCA, what are you.

00:06:31
Speaker 3: Doing right now?

00:06:31
Speaker 1: What's on your plate? What's what's your connection to tennis at the moment other than being a I'm sure a watcher and a lover and a player.

00:06:38
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me on the show. It's always great to catch up with friends and just candidly talk about issues. Right now, I am the executive director of the Harlem Seer in Tennis and Education Program, which is an n JTL chapter here in New York based in Harlem, vice President of the IF, chair of the GET Committee their Equality in Tennis as well as the Fed Cup Committee for the ITF, and I'm still on the board of the USCA, So I'm very much involved in the sport from a lot of different levels, and every now and then I get to be a commentator. So you know, these last couple of months three months now, I guess with COVID being isolated and quarantined most of the time, and I've been able to really catch up on things and hold on, hold on, hold on, Well you weren't even just quarantined.

00:07:29
Speaker 2: Let's get into the like minutia of literally the last couple of months of your life, because it's also been an.

00:07:35
Speaker 3: Incredibly difficult, emotional.

00:07:40
Speaker 2: A few months for you with you know, both your parents passing in the last twelve months, also got COVID nineteen as well, so you've just you know, let's not try and be all like I'm tough Patrina Adams anymore.

00:07:55
Speaker 3: Like there you didn't let me finish, so I go there the last three months, but go ahead, since you brought it up. Yeah, life has kind of sucked the last three months, you know, with COVID being isolated, being quarantined. I lost my dad three weeks ago, not to COVID but to a broken heart, having lost my mom and his love for sixty four years. She passed away in August, and I was fortunate enough to be able to fly out to Vegas where he was staying with my brother to be with him, and uh, you know, and he died in my arms. So it's been very difficult in you know, these last few weeks. But you know, and on top of that, we have the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis, of which the world has watched, the world has grieved, the world has supported me in many ways, and and the world has left me in many ways. So it's it's been a tough, tough few weeks. But you know, every day I've got to put one foot in front of the other and to move forward and try to make sense in light of everything and figure out, you know, really, what what my what's the point of my existence in this world in America? What? What have you?

00:09:15
Speaker 1: What are you concluding about that? What are you processing about that. That's what I was going to ask you about. It's a transition moment. We're having a crisis in the streets. We have dialogues going on that we should have been having the whole time. We can get into every element of that, but you as a person, how how are you thinking about your existence right now?

00:09:36
Speaker 3: Where's your head? Yeah? It's been difficult. I mean it's you know, I think for me and Renee knows me very well. Everything that I've done, it's been to My goal has been to make a difference, to make a change, to make things better, to be engaged, to be involved, to have a voice, and to be inclusive. You know, I was a president of the USA before years and the biggest thing that I really talked about a lot was obviously diversity and an inclusion because here we go, right, it's not hard to see when I walk in the room that I'm black and I'm diverse, and trying to really grow our sport and get more kids of color engaged in the sport and make sure that there's an opportunity for them. I've preached, and I do say preached at annual.

00:10:27
Speaker 2: Meetings about the struggle that people of color have had or diverse people in our sport.

00:10:36
Speaker 3: But it's not about that. It's about a human it's a it's a human issue, and how we've been overlooked or not supported in different arenas, how we are often ostracized if we are at a large event. This is in general not USCA, but in general of going to a meeting or conference and there's probably a dozen people of color and somehow we find each other and gravitate to be in conversation, and then we're talked about about us separating ourselves, And it's not about separating ourselves. It's about being inclusive of ourselves to find a comfort zone. And I challenge people all the time, why don't you go into a reverse situation as a white person, to go into an all black arena or a Hispanic arena or an Asian arena and you find a dozen other people that look like you. Who are you going to gravitate to and start to have a conversation. And it's not to be a racist or to discriminate in any form. It's to find people that you are most comfortable with starting a conversation as strangers. And it's very difficult to get people to understand that. And I think when you look at the events that have happened in the last nine ten days now, I think people are starting to get it and starting to understand that there are so many predisposed, unconscious biases out there that you automatically or have a viewpoint of one thing or another without trying to assess the situation or even ask questions before you start to accuse. And those are the things that I've been trying to process really in the last week and really the last few days, as I've watched this movie, this drama, this thriller, this tragedy unfold before our eyes. And that's kind of where I am right now.

00:12:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you and I spoke earlier today Kat about it a little, and Caitlin and I were talking Pride to our starting is called, And you know, I think one of the things that's been really good about this is that, you know, and I watched obviously the funeral today of George Floyd, and it was a moving moment when Reverend Shopton got up and spoke, and the things that he said were about, you know, sort of the kneeling on the neck of black Americans has been around for four hundred years, And that was one of the things in the book that I'm reading right now about white fragility. It's sort of just you gravitate to the people that you used to and sometimes it's so unconscious because it's what you've grown up around. And a lot of times it's not your fault. You know a lot of people. That's why it's called white fragility. Everyone takes offense to it. They get defensive rather than just listening to where the problems the systemic racism goes. So, I mean in tennis, it's a unique situation, right because tennis is such a white sport quote unquote. But now like in the US, for example, you have some incredible black female particular athletes that have come through Venus and Serena, you know Coke who's speaking out over the last week. It's just unbelievable what this young lady is doing. And that comes from great parenting and et cetera. And you've got Swan, You've got Madison Keys, You've got all these great young black American players and they're doing so many great things. And your your group before that, Laurie McNeil, Zena Garrison, Althia Gibson yourself. Do you feel that there's the shift is there with the players, but it's still not the undercurrent of people, you know that are making the big decisions like in every corporation in the US.

00:14:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's the players are there, and I mean, you know, we're lacking obviously like them on the male side. But we have Francis Siafo, who stepped up also in the last week video together on social media, reached out to me to ask me if I would be a part of it, and he was very successful in getting so many of the other top black players, not the African Americans, but black players from around the world, from France, England in the US, and you know, it just really shows the camaraderie that is strong on the tennis tour men and women, particularly with the players of color, because we are in a predominantly white sport globally. Now, you know, in the US we talk about racial racial biases all the time. It's not so much talked about the rest of the world because the rest of the world looks like what they look like in their in their countries, right. So I think when you when you talk about leadership, Billy Jean says it all the time. You have to see it to believe it. So unless you see yourself in these higher positions, in these corporate positions and these decision making decisions, you feel that you don't really have a voice. You feel like you're talking, but no one's ever listening. And that was my goal, you know, for the four years that I fortunately had at the USCA, that I always to listen and then relay the message because I was the right messenger to tell the message. Very difficult for either one of you to tell the message of me, because you're not in my skin, you're not in my shoes, You're not experiencing what I'm experiencing on a daily basis. And I've always tried to be politically correct and everything that I do, everything I say, every place I go, and who I represent, and I continue to do that. But I think the latest events allow me to say, okay, Kat, you need to be even more authentic than your presentation and to letting people know that I too am hurting, I too am damaged by this. I don't have a black husband or a black song, but I have brothers, I have cousins, I have nephews, I have uncles in this particular incident that, by the way, happens all day every day. They're just not always videoed exactly all the time. And for me as a woman, even people see my color first before they see me as a woman if they are looking for something negative, and they're already sizing me up when I walk into establishments, I walk into stores, I walk into a meeting, and they're already deciding if I am, if I'm worthy or have value of being in that space, if I should be recognized or not, meaning approach to say hello or greet it. When I say recognized, be greeted. And that's what the platform of particularly the black athletes in America, have been talking about for forever, but even more so from Colin Kaeperdick taking a knee for the very thing that this asshole's knee was on the neck of this innocent guy that he killed. That's what he was kneeling for, to fight against police brutality. And too many people wanted to make it about so many other things as opposed to listening and really trying to understand it to see if they could do something about They didn't want to do anything about it. And you better believe if this wasn't on global television, on national television every day, we wouldn't be having this conversation now because it would be they would have found a reason for his actions to have been right. So when you hear the list of names that have been listed before George Floyd, and unfortunately there are going to be other names after. But unless we collectively come together as a human race, in the human society to fight against this and fight for systemic change against these unconscious and conscious biases, we won't go anywhere. We can say in the next month, yeah, things are going to get better, and we're probably going to see some things here, some things, you know, so that things can calm down and people get back into you know, into their their rhythm of being at home right now because of COVID and who knows how this is going to grow back in New York. Hopefully it doesn't. But we have to understand that people are different. But diversity of thought, collective diversity of thought, is what makes us stronger and makes us smarter and makes us more knowledgeable. So when you talk about our sport of tennis on the leadership, yeah, they listened to me for four years. But where does it go from here? Who knows? Right, Yeah, not in the immediate future that I was going to be leading in the USCA. That that is diverse. When we talk about our commentators in the sport of tennis, you know, I went to Tennis Channel in two thousand and two before they went on the air and told them and I didn't have a lot of experience in commentating at all, I knew the sport. Yeah, I talked about tennis all the time. I said, you need me more than I need you. You know why, because Venus and Serena were number one and number two in the world at that time, and they needed someone who could really commentate and understand what their thought process was, not just on the court, but off the court, to really bring some authentic conversation to why they were so successful, why they were so driven, why they didn't have the opportunities that other players had in their upbringing, or maybe they got more opportunities in other areas. And so that's what I brought to the screen for about ten consecutive years before I got more on the business side, and I'm hoping to get back into it. But there's other networks that say, you're not a Grand Slam champion, so we can't use your not good enough for us and in nut shot.

00:21:03
Speaker 1: And yet the men commentating on the sport are not even tennis players a lot of the times that I'm listening to pretty much.

00:21:11
Speaker 3: But but but that's that's the biases that are out there, and they don't even and they don't think that I understand what they're saying, so and it's a shame. But I won't. I won't stop trying to get on other networks to bring a knowledge that I have that's beyond the years of some of our Grand Slam champions. We all bring a diverse thought into the conversation and can touch on different things differently. Doesn't matter what the color of your skin is. It's about what's in here and what we're bringing to the table.

00:21:46
Speaker 2: Well, I think at that moment, and uh, when that situation in Indian Wells with Venus and Serena, I mean that would have been a perfect That's a perfect example of needing to have a voice like yours or you know, James blay Cool.

00:22:01
Speaker 3: We're on tour then though, so we were, I wasn't in the booth. That's my point, someone before us, you know, a Zena or Lorie, I think they had retired by then, or Leslie Allen who had been in these girls shoes, who had felt an experienced racism in our sport growing up. Those ladies can definitely give you some examples. I personally don't have any of those. I grew up in Chicago. I think I was protected from those incidents, if and when they happened by my parents. So I can't sit here and tell you a direct, a direct, an overt racist act that was done towards me in my upbringing. But those those ladies can't. They live in the South, being a Xena and Laurie and and Chanda, she lives in Louisiana. I'm sure she's got some stories, but it's you know, you need to have these people on air so when anything comes up they can talk about it. When James Blake was playing Layton Hewitt and Layton made the comment to the umpire, he didn't know, he didn't know what he knew what he was saying, but he didn't really understand the impact of it because he doesn't live in America. He didn't understand what that means and what that implies and Donald Young experiencing that either what two years ago or I don't remember, but it's the underlying comments that the people that are saying do not understand how hurtful they are. That you are a peer of mine that I have respected. We eat in the same restaurants, we're in the same locker rooms. We're sharing all these things together, trying to be the best that we can be. But you have just torn me down.

00:23:47
Speaker 2: Yeah you didn't get that quick sense of oh wow, you still knew me like that, you know, as opposed to your opponent who's on the other side of the tennis call to you and as a human being.

00:23:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, part of it, Renee, you and I were talking earlier too. I think part of it too is it's your upbringing, you know, And I get it if I I grow up in an all white community. All you know, my schools, my teachers, my friends, and the only stories that I know of black people are a depiction of how they are in movies, in films, on television shows and maybe in the news. All these negative things that you hear, you are developing your understanding of all of all black people exactly. And so when you start to come into come of age, and you're getting outside of your community and you're going to college, university and university and getting the job for us, and now you have to interact with people that don't look like you. You're automatically sizing them up to be something negative even know them. It's so true.

00:24:55
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, I've had the luxury of, like, you know, I grew up in Australia, very white community, you know what I mean. And then I was traveling on tour for twenty something years and most of the people that I met that were black were obviously involved in tennis or were tennis parents or whomever yourself for example. And the only ever people that I ever met that were of African American backgrounds in this country were people like you, And I saw how you were, your family various. So I was lucky enough that that's the exposure that I got to see that as well. But you're so right, because you know movie producers, movie, you know executives in film or white so it's all the depictions of He heard a great story on white fragility today, even about the blind Side movie and how it was just it was glorified so much right, And Sandra Bullet whins this oscar for her depiction of a.

00:25:56
Speaker 3: White savior right coming in.

00:25:58
Speaker 2: And then the one black person in it was the kid who made it good in the NFL, right, But he was never depicted very smart. He was depicted like he was a little slow, like the kid was doing his contract. And I started thinking about this as she's telling me that I was listening to it I'm.

00:26:14
Speaker 3: Not having on audiobook, and I was like, that is so right.

00:26:17
Speaker 2: Again, this great movie that is so celebrating is depicting the one black person as not very smart, only could give in an athletic standpoint. And then when there's a one scene where he goes back to his neighborhood where he gets, you know, basically attacked by two black youths and saved by the white mom coming in, and I'm like, oh my god, I had never thought of.

00:26:41
Speaker 3: That movie like that.

00:26:43
Speaker 2: So I think it's really important for people to understand that black.

00:26:47
Speaker 3: People have and it's because that's that's what we see all the time. And I think that's the beauty of of what Tyler Perry has done on John Ridley and other black directors and producers because they're telling our stories and they're not all they're not all glorified, but at least they have the knowledge to be able to go from here to here and a wide range of stories that are real that truly happen in the way that they happen, as opposed to someone who's never been in our skin tries to tell us who we are. And that's why it's been you know, it's been frustrated in Hollywood even for our black actors to get these leading roles that don't have to be about white people all the time, right, But it's it's the way that the director or the producer, that's their mindset, that's their visual so that's what they depict and that's who they cast. But it's what they're showing the rest of the world and how they're depicting people of color, And I think the beautiful thing and watching the protests and in the last week, are you know the hundreds of thousands of collective people of all colors that are protesting around this country, in America and the world around the world. I got a video from a friend in New Zealand that said, hey, we are standing with you, Kat. We know it's tough I can't imagine what you're going through or what you're feeling. But here's what we're doing in New Zealand, and it was a sea of people marching Black Lives Matter and George Floyd Floyd and other names. And I'm sitting there going Zeland. I had friends in Germany they did the same thing. So you know this is a global if. This is a human issue, human issue.

00:28:51
Speaker 1: This episode of the Racket Magazine podcast is brought to you by Sergio Tacchini, revitalizing and disrupting the status quo since nineteen sixty six. Follow them on Instagram at Sergia Underscore Official and go to Sergia to Kini dot com for more. Enter the promo code Racket mag at checkout and you'll get thirty percent off your order. I want to link what we're talking about right now to something you said a little bit earlier, because from my perspective, one thing that is seeming to for some white people connect the dots is what you said earlier about this has been happening forever. We're just starting to film it, we're just starting to see it. We're and I think some of the understanding of systemic protests police force policy, reparations that had to call about reparations with.

00:29:45
Speaker 3: My father two days ago.

00:29:47
Speaker 1: Just the idea that now that white people are learning to get less defensive and try to open their eyes a little bit more about some of these systemic benefits and not make black people do the work, and not make black people have all the solutions, but instead look at ourselves, step back and make more room. Do you feel that if you were president the USDA tomorrow and you didn't have to be your more PC self and account for some of the white defensiveness you're going to encounter and account for some of the pushback, you know, and the work you're going to have to do to be seen as worthy. As you said, I'm curious what would that be like? What would you say? What would be different? And can you look to do some of that stuff now that you're maybe thinking that white people.

00:30:33
Speaker 3: Can fucking handle it. Finally, it wouldn't be any different than what I did when I was president, and I think that was the beauty of it. I was very authentic and the speeches that I made, and you know, we have our annual meeting or SEEMI annual meeting, where I caught a State of a Union address, and so I was very fortunate and lucky to have my parents attend, you know, the US Open or the annual meetings throughout my presidency and for them to see the success as to what they, you know, the reaped the rewards of what they sowed in me. And I specifically remember his speech. It was during the med Too movement four three or four years ago, and I was talking about diversity and with women, but also talking about the other issues that were going on in America at the time when our leadership in this country changed and the hatred that was being put out there on a daily basis, and I referenced in front of eleven hundred people and saying, you know, it's very sad that in twenty seventeen, whatever year it was. You know. So my parents were born and raised in Mississippi in the thirties, and they grew up in the cotton fields, and they went on to get a college education and moved to Chicago and went through the civil rights movement, this, this, this, and this, and if we don't learn from their history and what they endured and what we now continue to endure on a different level, you know, it's just a more professional level if you will as to as to the systemic biases that we have here in America now, if we don't change and really step up and speak forward for change, it will never happen. So I already preach that within our family of the USCA, and it resonated with many. I'm sure I had some people tilting their heads to the side, but I had many people that walked up to thank me for sharing those stories or my opinions and to getting them to see things through a different through a different lens, because, as we mentioned earlier, if you're in your isolated community and the people that you deal with, how can you allow yourself to open up to think differently if you are not in those situations. So, yes, tomorrow I would speak about what's happening right now, how it has affected our future players of our sport, and the fear that has been injected in these young black kids of wanting to go into these white communities to play in tournaments because of the fear of how they're going to be looked at, how they're going to be viewed, And I'm wondering if they're going to show show up at home a lot it's it's a problem, and we have a problem already in the sport where you know, people are who they are and their true colors come out, and so, you know, I often received complaints from parents where their kids have been called the inWORD, or they've been called the inWORD at tournaments and that they've been you know, overtly cheated by officials or whomever. Because it's real. And of course I receive those I understand them, I believe them, and I take it to the powers that be within the organization to do something about it. But I don't know if the people before me or the people after me to see these complaints, because people say, well, it's no need to be complaining because they're not going to understand, they're not going to listen, or if they get them, they probably say, oh, that's not happening and push it aside. I don't know that, So I can only be responsible for the powers that I had, the actions that I took, and the confidence that I've built in people to entrust their stories with me and for me to turn around and be able to voice them at a level where people didn't have a choice but to listen. So I'm not in that position anymore. I'm still on the board, i still voice my opinions. So the challenge now is, after our recent events, is getting our kids, you know, kids of color, comfortable and going to these tournaments, going outside of their comfort zone, traveling and being accepted and feeling like they belong because all of the events in the last ten days showing them that they don't. How do you how do you get a child to believe that they're welcome, is that they should that they're equal, because it's been proven that they're not. I mean, it took it took over a week to charge these other three cops. That's what the protest was about. Arrest the other cops. It happened yesterday, the day before the memorial. So so it's difficult I run a program. And I'm actually grateful that we're not in session right now because of COVID because it would be very difficult to get them to understand that. And we have a diverse program. So how do we we now have to train the kids to that there are friends before COVID. Let's hop they're friends afterwards and they're not looking at each other differently. Yet they're too young to realize the impact of this, but we know they're not because kids are smarter than we are these days. They're more savvy than we are, and they can definitely manage just saying way better than we can. So that's my concern right now, and that's my cry at the same time, because I'm not sure how to deal with that. It's hard for me to deal with it. Let's deal with it, And it's hard for me to talk about it without being emotional. So the first time a child comes up to me to ask a question or make a comment about that, I'm afraid for that moment, for me, not for the child. Of course, I will come up with the right things to say, but it's gonna be hard to rebuild that security and that safety net for our kids, and we're doing it through sports, and sport's taken away right now, so they don't even have the outlet right now to let go of their anger on the court. Smash as many rackets as you want, because I know you've been cooped up in the house and you've got a lot of inks built up in you, but that tennis court is their safe haven where they can really express themselves and be who they are without being judged, and it's gonna be hard to bring that back.

00:37:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to sort of acknowledge that again, like it's not up to black people to solve problems that this white power structure continues to reinforce. So thinking about that and power structure, my context is media. I came up through newsrooms like the Washington Post in time, and I saw the people in charge. They didn't speak to me. They certainly didn't speak to people of color. And so on every diversity committee that I was on or every attempt that I made, was to challenge power, because to me, power is a lot of this is about really too right. Police can get away with this because they have power, and we have not treated black people like they deserve power or they have righteous anger at when power is abused, which is why it's a perpetual system. So in the context of Tennis, my question about power, who has it and how we can make sure it's more equitably distributed are things that I'm using my magazine to do. And I want to know what your thought is about some of the power structures changing, because it can't just be black people fixing this. And I think when I look at what tennis can be, the best of tennis, a place for trailblazers, a place for political activists in the sixties. I look at ash, I look at Billy Jean advocating for women. It's the only sport that women can really truly make something remotely equaling the men out of every sport. The LGBT rights trans rights. Tennis was and has been a time ahead of the curve. I think it's fallen behind, and I'd like to see it get back out in front again. And I wonder what the power structures that we can talk about can start to change to change that.

00:39:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, so see, I'd like to eliminate the word power. Tell me more. That's where it is. I mean that cop felt that he had the power to do what he did. The one person who thinks he's the most powerful person in this world is the root of all of our causes, particularly here in America, because he's made everyone think that being racist, being biased, being a bigot is absolutely okay. And so therefore things have escalated in the last three and a half years to where we are now. And until we get him out of this office and people get out and register and vote to make change, not just at the top, but every two years in between for the congressmen and women and House of Representatives and our judges in particular. Unless we are are bridget and vigilant and doing what we're supposed to do every two years and that every four years, then we won't have change it. Yep.

00:40:24
Speaker 2: It starts from the city local level all the way. You got to start at the bottom to get to the top. And that's there's no doubt about that.

00:40:33
Speaker 1: You know.

00:40:33
Speaker 2: On a lighter note, Cat Can I just because you know, I have known you a long time, but.

00:40:41
Speaker 3: One of the things that I did love about.

00:40:43
Speaker 2: You being the president of the UCA was that for the first time I looked up into the president's box and it was like ninety five percent of the people in there were like people just like you, And I was like, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen.

00:40:56
Speaker 3: I look it up.

00:40:57
Speaker 2: You know me, I'm sitting at this You always spot me. I'm down there working for espen right behind the unpunch.

00:41:04
Speaker 3: It wasn't ninety percent, but it was a big difference. It was ninety percent more than what was their previous year. You know. One of the things that I people have said, oh, well, you know you you, you know, Kat really changed the look of the president's suite with her friends and family, and so I said, yeah, because my friends and family look like me. I said, So you can't tell me that the presidents before me didn't have their friends and family in there. They looked like them, so you didn't know who they were, so you couldn't judge and say, oh, they must they must be her family and friends. Many of them were business people as well, and so again, you know, it's just the mindset and the thought that they had to be just her family and friends. Now many days they were actually, you know, well established and successful business people who happened to look like me, and that I invited them because of whatever the relationships that we had, our business relationships. So so yeah, that that's changed changed last year. But which because I mean, let's let's granted, Renee, if you were the president, most of your family and friends are gonna look like you. Now you do have a lot of friends of color if the old Yeah, but we couldn't. We can't tell by just looking at you. We see white. First. All I'm gonna see is white, right, So I don't see the inclusive part. Okay, unless everybody's wearing a rainbow or there's something to identify themselves right, which it probably would feel, which is great. But that's that's what I'm saying. So we we can't judge on the surface. You didn't and that's what and that's what Black people are judged every day because of the color of their skin, which starts a conversation down that path. But if you're gay or lesbian, they don't see that initially. All they see is white or black until until it's brought to their attention, Oh well I'm gay or I'm a lesbian, and then that starts enough sparks another conversation. But at the end of the day, everything is black and white.

00:43:16
Speaker 1: First, do you think if you were if I have a six year old, if my six year old was black, he's not. Would you tell my son that tennis was a more welcoming place for him than other sports or all things being equal, should he look elsewhere?

00:43:41
Speaker 3: I think the entry level of our sport is very welcoming and that it's factual, and that's why we have I mean, Renee has been a part of some of these NJTL programs around the country, and it's not just n JTL. They have a membership of to be in the in certain chapters, but there's thousands of other programs that are like them that just don't have the criteria to be in JTAIL. So there are a lot of free programs or low cost programs. With tennis, you know, if you can get your child in a diverse obviously program it depends on where you are. But at the end of the day, it's up to the parents to teach our kids and to make sure that we're putting them in environments that I diverse, that they can learn about all races. So whether it's our sport, I mean, do you want to put them in in in basketball or football where maybe predominantly black, it it's not going to learn the different cultures and how to really communicate with people that don't look like him. I mean, if you go to Texas, Hell football is all white. It just depends on where you're from, right, depends on the communities. So you can't I don't think you can pick the sport because you want to want them to be in a more a sport that is either black or white. It's really about what you want your child to learn and what you want him to get out of support as a whole, and how he or she can develop. Well, I'll tell you what I mean.

00:45:11
Speaker 2: One of the things that I've just been We've already spoken about her, but you know, Serena's been great throughout her career and Venus have both been great taking the lead on many different social issues. But I have such great faith in the next generation of kids. And I think you know that was one of the things that Reverend Sharpton said yes to today was that he has hope for the first time in his life because he's looking at He's like, you know, in the sixties, it was just people that look like me marching.

00:45:39
Speaker 3: And he is.

00:45:40
Speaker 2: Now it's a very diverse group of people that are out there marching and demanding change.

00:45:46
Speaker 3: And so he said, I really feel like that.

00:45:48
Speaker 2: And I think in tennis, when you look at someone like Coco goth at sixteen years of age sort of really taking a stand in Francis Tiafo and both both of them young, great pioneers in the sport with a name, that's where I feel really happy with the sport of tennis that they are going to make a huge difference in someone like Coco.

00:46:06
Speaker 3: If she continues to go the way.

00:46:07
Speaker 2: She does, boy, she could be a change maker. And I said, I tweeted out that she's what Billy Jean was fifty years ago for fighting for women's rights. And I just feel like Coco is going to be a I hope she continues to play the way she's been doing and she could be a huge catalyst for the sport of tennis anyway of getting people involved. Kat, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you that.

00:46:29
Speaker 3: At that moment at the US Open.

00:46:33
Speaker 2: Where you had to sort of you, I would imagine that you felt like you were such in the middle with Serena and Naomi and what.

00:46:40
Speaker 3: Happened during that US up and final and being your friend.

00:46:43
Speaker 2: I know the person that you are, and you know, I know that was a lot of slack thrown at you for various reasons. People had a lot of opinions. I want to know what that moment was like for you, Like personally, you.

00:46:58
Speaker 3: Know, it was challenging. You don't know how you're going to react or what you're going to say in those instances. You know, I tell the story, It's in my book on the Arena comes out in March, but it's really you know, there's a period. There was a five's probably six minute period of me moving from the suite down to court side of where I kind of missed the entire altercation of the penalty. So by the time I got down court side, it was five ' three and I'm going, what's going on? So they're trying to tell me court side, but nobody down below could hear what was happening, so I had to go inside to the TV to kind of hear the commentating and try to, you know, understand what it happened or what was transpiring out there. So I was just as shocked as many other people when that moment came. But in understanding the penalty and what was said, understanding what was said to warrant the penalty, I go, okay, yeah, I get that, But timing is everything, right. You don't do that when you already have a point, do that or warning or maybe a point, but not for a game. So when you talk about the code, it is what it is now. I don't agree with the first warning that was given which got us into this mess or got her into this mess. But for me, when I had to go out there and speak. You know, I'm trying to come up with words that I'm not sure where they're coming from. I know where they're coming from my heart, if you will, Because I wanted to make sure that Naomi recognize that that she got the applause that she deserves this first time Grand Slam champion, in first time US Open champign We yet trying to empathize with Serena and the things that it had transpired on the court and the outcome of those behaviors and the penalties that were assessed.

00:49:00
Speaker 2: And Kat, You've known You've known Serena for twenty plus years, so this is you know, this is a lot of you know, presidents don't really have that you know, friendship slash connection with players. It kind of like heads of state where they don't really know the players that well. You know her, So that's where your empathy comes out for that situation, so you know.

00:49:23
Speaker 3: But so so you know, the ceremony starts, and you know, I've got butterflies inside because I'm you know, I can't believe what's just transpired in the crowd and and and her outbursts on the court, et cetera. And so, you know, you start the trophy presentation and Tom you know, immediately says welcome to the United States Tennis and I'm like, twenty thousand people are booing and I'm going, oh shit, like smiling but going wow. Right, so you don't know what that feels like to be on the receiving end. And after he says that, here's the chairman and president of the USTA, and I'm looking at him, going, now, you want to give me the mic? Now? So I'm like, yeah, okay, I'm trying to digest all of this, and you know, my words are getting jumbled. I thought I did a pretty good job. But what I didn't explain is that the one comment that got me in trouble was when I referenced the outcome of the match, and I was referring to the outcome of the circumstances that happened in the match, right, not the winner. And so people says, oh, you wanted Serenda to win because she was black? Dude, did you happen to look at the other player? So you know, I got in Twitter sphere. I was just ostras I mean, it was like I had to just put my phone away because it was just buzzing the whole time of how you know, how disingenuous my comments were and how biased they were, and this, that and the other. And I'm going, what are you talking about? Because I hadn't heard. I thought I gave a pretty good speech, got through it. It was a nightmare, and so I didn't really know until I didn't even hear what I had said until I was on ESPN the next day for an interview before the men's final, and so I'm going, oh, that's what they're talking about. I'm like, okay, yeah, but that's not what I meant. So you've decided what You've decided what the interpretation is as to what I said that it was about Serena, and it really wasn't about Serena. It was about the behavior. It was about the umpire, It was about the booing and a championship match. This is not the outcome that you want to see in the finals of a Grand Slam, right, That's what I was talking about for outcomes. So you know, for two days in hant of me, I had to go on CBS this morning Tuesday, which is two days after the freaking event, and and it just never stopped. So I have no regrets. You know, I wouldn't change anything, maybe clarify what outcome I was talking about, but it definitely wasn't about the outcome of who won the match, because I couldn't be more proud of Naomi, you know, and following her Reneo now she was, you know, it was And I even wanted to say, you know, she was once a rising star who has now risen because she won the rising Star event at the WTA Finals in Singapore a couple of years before, and now that star has risen to be a Grand Slam champion and she grew up in Queens. Yeah, I mean I so I could not be more proud of her and what she'd accomplished and you know, really reaching her dream of a beating Serena and he was open finals. So you can't write a better script for this, but it is what it is, And.

00:53:08
Speaker 1: You know I do when I think of that match and the way you handle it specifically, I don't think anything other than I'm glad this was a woman who is doing this. I'm glad this is a woman of color who's doing this. I'm glad this is a woman who's played on the tour because so often you have commentators, leaders, speechmakers who you know, have not spent a lot of time in an empathetic position, who would even make those calculations, you know what I mean? And that's what I think a lot about when I think about who gets to talk about the sport, who gets to leave the sport, who gets to have magazines about the sport, who gets to be booked on all the morning shows about the sport? And so for me, what I takeaway is that was landing a plane in a real turbulent storm, you know, like the plane got to the tarmac and can I.

00:53:56
Speaker 2: Just say, I don't think people realize how big that stadium is. And how do you is to actually have a mind in front of you when the lights are glaring on you and you have to make it perfect. I mean, give me a break. It's not It's not easy.

00:54:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, it's listen. I things happened for a reason. I was in that role for a reason because I could empathize with with the players, with the situation, with the umpire, with everybody that was involved, right because I was that player and now I'm that person of color h and because of that you know, I went off script. You know, I had my speech and notes whatever, but I couldn't rely on those because that wasn't the moment to just, you know, be generic. That was the moment to really be authentic, of which I tried to do. And I'm proud of what I did and how I handled it. And you're right it was the right person, because I will tell you that my successor. I got back in the suite and said, oh boy, better you than me, because I don't know how I would have dealt with that. And and I laughed at him. I like, yeah, you you yea. I said, yeah, you owe me big time, buddy, you owe me big time.

00:55:12
Speaker 2: But but that was Pat Gilbert, who of course was a former player himself and a very very very very nice guy.

00:55:21
Speaker 3: And yeah, of course, but but but still a white guy in that situation. I don't care who it was. Remember, always see is color. We don't look at credentials. We don't know credentials of people. The average person sitting at home has no idea what his background or credentials are. Right, they don't know what my background or credentials are. They always see his color first, and and we're judged on what comes out of our mouth based on that, and then they ask questions later. Right then they then they google to kind of find out what your what your credential credentials are. But you know it's I'm okay. I mean, you know again, I didn't sleep for a week only because I could not get in touch with Naomi, because I wanted to make sure that she understood that what I was saying was not against her and that I was applauding her, et cetera. And you know, I'd reached out to her coach at the time, Sasha, and it sent a long text because I've known him since he was nineteen when he came on as a hating partner of Serena, and we've become we've become really good friends over the years, so I knew I reached out to him, and I didn't hear back from him for like a week. But of course he just wanted Grand Slam, so he's probably got a thousand text he coming in. So about five or six days later, I reached out to him again and he said, oh my god, I didn't see it. He goes, you have no idea how many texts I got and I didn't respond to all of I couldn't get catch up with them. Blah blah blah blah blah. And he accepted my you know, reasoning to mylogy. If my words were misconstrued, this, that and the other. And I needed to speak to Naomi, and he's like, hey, we're going to dinner. They were in Japan. It's like, we're actually going to dinner in an hour. Just give her a call. Here's a number. She'd love to hear from you. And that was it. And you know, she accepted my words. She knew that I didn't mean any harm from her. It wasn't about me. It was about the entire experience that that she was taken aback from. And I just want to add one thing about that.

00:57:30
Speaker 2: You know, I've spoken a lot about co CO, but I do want to say that Naomi.

00:57:34
Speaker 3: Has also stepped up in the last week a lot as well. And social, Yeah, yeah, it's been great. You know, when you're black, you know that you're black, or if you think that you're different, someone reminds you that you're black. And and you better believe that Naomi has been in positions to be reminded that she's black and that she is not Japanese, and that's sad. It's really sad. So the power, the strength that she's had since twenty year was it eighteen twenty eighteen US Open, I'm not going twenty nineteen US soapin and then beat Coco and bring her on the court. She knows that she's that role model now and she's the next leader of the sport, and the next leader of the sport who's of color. And this isn't the only time that I've seen her step up and step out of a comfort zone. She's done it before and she'll do it in the future. And so I am so excited about the future of our sport with our young players not hiding behind a racket only and being able to talk about social issues, both the men and the women, boys and girls. And I think it's a great future. And I think, you know, Billy Jean King has to be proud as to what she's witnessing from this particular generation in particular, I mean, you know, our generation. I think we still had to be somewhat politically correct. Yes, I stepped out on many limbs and said things or did things differently, but I also was more politically correct in statements than being very authentic because of who I represented behind me or as an organization. And I don't go back on anything that I said, and everything that I said for me was true and authentic. Probably could have added a little more color to some things, but I didn't.

00:59:45
Speaker 2: But I know, because you know, I'm not going to give your email address out on our podcast, but I don't need to tell her what your old email used to be because it was a little bit helpful than what it is now.

00:59:57
Speaker 3: Let's just say that well was Hollywood.

01:00:00
Speaker 1: So what what we just talked about with the US OPEN is in your book? You have written a book. It's coming out.

01:00:06
Speaker 3: Also come out in July, but because of COVID is coming out in March, because we didn't have any time to promote it. We can't travel and really doing is speaking engagement. So we've moved into March twenty.

01:00:18
Speaker 2: One, right before the inding and Well swing, and hopefully we'll have an opportunity to really promote it properly next year.

01:00:27
Speaker 3: Can I still ask you some questions about it? Yeah? Sure, I notice.

01:00:31
Speaker 1: Obviously the US Open, the incident we just talked about, sort of the fallout and your many sort of considerations and being a leader and wanting to do right by everybody, but at the same time handle hostile crowd. You know, kind of illustrates the balancing act of being a prominent woman, needing to represent in some cases maybe not always feeling like representing. And I'm struck by the subtitle of the book, which is called getting ahead, making a difference, and succeeding as the only one, right.

01:01:01
Speaker 3: I mean, let's see, I'm only African American to be the president of the USTA, and you know, there's a lot of only that I that come behind me. And you know, when you're when you're a leader in an organization, my thing is not my goal is not to be the only one. I prefer the title it's being the first, because if you're the first, you're trying to bring many behind you. But when I was in that office, I was the only former player. Now there's a second one with Patrick, but there are a lot of onlies. I was the youngest, which means I was the only one of that age. So that's what a lot of that's what the only one references. But there will be a lot of innu windows about being that only one and what it means. And so when you talk about own own the arena, it means really own your space, own your own your arena. It can be it's not about a stadium or building. It's about your space. It's about that moment. So you know, it's owning your voice, it's owning your opportunities, it's owning the table as a chairwoman of that board and being on other boards. And so hopefully it's a teaching tool for many of the readers that will that will read it that they can use in their own growth, uh in business. But also there's a lot of stories in regards to how tennis prepared me for these various situations and opportunities and moments to succeed in life and make a difference in others in others lives.

01:02:40
Speaker 2: All right, So I'd be remiss and not ask you what was your greatest tennis moment because we talk about you know, we're talking about you like you're this you know person that sits in boardrooms, but you replay for a number of yews, like what was your favorite tennis moment other than.

01:02:52
Speaker 3: What if I am with you renee, when I either one of us could play the deuce court. Okay, So so that was a that was the biggest moment, and and we just did that work out very well.

01:03:05
Speaker 1: You know.

01:03:06
Speaker 3: It's interesting, I would say many of my greatest moments are actually losses. You know, as a rookie, I got to the fourth round of Wimbled and I lost to Chris Severed in three sets. You know, when I was frash, I was Hollywood, it was cocky. Well I'm still cocky and thinking, you know, and thinking that I was gonna win that match until I looked up at the scoreboard and realized that I could win the match or was maybe on my way of winning it, and lost focus. So you learn from those You learn from that to say, Okay, yeah, I did lose to one of the greatest players of all time, and you have to contribute that. You know, she got her game together. She'd never played me before, so she figured my game out. I was out of shape, so I ran out of gas as well. But I mean, that's that was a big moment for me in a sport that I from the West side of Chicago. I'm a Wimbledon playing Chris Evert, whose name was on the first record that I had. You know that that's kind of surreal, right, it's full circle and when we're great friends today. One of the times in beating Martina and and Pam, you know, when they were still the greatest and I was actually playing with Mercedes Pods at Hiltonhead Family's Circle, and I mean just that feeling of beating this team. I played them numerous times before and hadn't won it, had the post matches, but you know it's other times I beat Menuela Malayva frontier at the time she was number three in the world. You know, great match where I was in that tunnel focused vision, you know, from start to finish. But other losses are losing to Stephie like five and five, knowing that I was there and and had and was competitive, lost to Helena Takova six, six and six. You know, I mean, what a man. But you know, unfortunately I didn't, I didn't take those moments to take me to the next level. It was, so those are those are very interesting moments. But I won twenty I won twenty titles and probably lost twenty finals. So it's it doubles and I and I think, you know, I had a very good career, a very solid career. Could I could I have been more successful probably, But I always had me having.

01:05:30
Speaker 2: A good time back then, right, I mean seriously not playing I was.

01:05:33
Speaker 3: I was having fun, but I was also political, I was on the board. I had a lot of things that were taking my focus off of just training and playing. And I don't regret it because they prepared.

01:05:46
Speaker 2: Me for what I've been able to accomplish today. Photos of us playing this softball game you remember.

01:05:52
Speaker 3: We used to have in Miami at Kipus game.

01:05:55
Speaker 2: Used to have a softball game was the player is against the WTA stuff. Yeah, had no chance, that's totally And there's a photo of Katrina I still got it somewhere cattle find and a my green baby suit, my shorts and then remember and you guys would give me ship the way I caught with the glove, And I mean it was.

01:06:15
Speaker 3: Just we just we had it was a different mindset back then.

01:06:19
Speaker 2: It was we were such a collaborative group, like truly we were all good friends. And you know, and Chrissy talks about that, like we had to have one another, we had to have one another's back, we had to practice together. We was only like if you had a coach. It was special. You know, you were like a really good play if you had to coach all the time with you. It was just like it was a different mindset back then.

01:06:39
Speaker 3: But it was also used to have these skits at Eastbourne, so every player had to be involved in a skit and you had to come up with your own team.

01:06:48
Speaker 2: No, not every player, not every pretty much pay me Pam here.

01:06:54
Speaker 3: It's about seven of us. But it was fun. But it was but it was a camaraderie and the friendship that was developed, you know, early on they kept each week interesting because it was a grind out there.

01:07:05
Speaker 2: It was.

01:07:06
Speaker 3: It was a much greater grind I think then. I don't think I know than it is now because you know, the money is a lot different now for these players to be able to afford certain things. But we were scraping, you know, we were scraping our asses taking trains back and forth from Eastbourne, from Birmingham to Eastbourne, Eastbourne to Wimbledon and and so forth and so on. But you know, it was fun and I think, you know, the one thing that I can walk away from and and say that I had great relationships with the greatest players that I was not the Grand Slam champion. But yet I can pick up the phone and call any player around the world if I'm in need, and that I'm friends with the greatest players in the world, from from Christina Martine to Stephanie to Monica to hinghas to Renee to everybody you know, and it's I mean, you can't. I can't trade that in No.

01:08:03
Speaker 2: Well, You'll always been my golf partner on tour, so so that's a good thing.

01:08:06
Speaker 3: Hey, have you been swinging a lately.

01:08:09
Speaker 2: No, we've been in covid We can't play golf, but I got to get you up here in Westchester. We gotta go play. Invite me man, I sold my you have to come and pick me up. So pick me up. I'll play anytime, all right. I'm going on a golf weekend the morrow, so I'm going to PA tomorrow, but maybe the next weekend. Good listen, Kat, we could sit here and talk to you for hours and hours and hours about so many things about the I mean, the collaboration of the w t A at P two or we could have got into that, but we're going to leave that for another pod.

01:08:40
Speaker 3: We got plenty of days, plenty of topics. I'm happy to join you, guys. I want to thank you for reaching out ready because you know it's been a tough couple of weeks and you allowed me earlier to air my feelings, my thoughts, my concerns, my fears on the phone, of which I then elaborated further. You know, with you two here, it's been tough. And you know, and and and in an isolated quarantine world, you know, to sit and watch this and what's transpired, and and you know, losing my dad three weeks ago, you know was a killer, you know most girls or daddy's girls, and that I was. And you know I celebrated my parents.

01:09:31
Speaker 2: On tour wherever I went, they went, and in my events in recent years.

01:09:35
Speaker 3: So this has allowed.

01:09:37
Speaker 2: Me to open up to uh really express myself in the most authentic way.

01:09:44
Speaker 3: So I thank you all.

01:09:47
Speaker 2: Kay please come back your my ever, my ever friend, and I love you so. Uh Now instead of doing my pard, let's go and have a drink text summer.

01:09:58
Speaker 3: All was for that.

01:10:03
Speaker 1: And that's it for this episode of the Racket Magazine podcast.

01:10:06
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.

01:10:07
Speaker 1: Our host is Renee Stubbs. Our co host and producer is me Caitlin Thompson. Music by internationally renowned DJ Stretch Armstrong. Thanks to Tim or Jerry and the team at ACAST. Find us at racketmag dot com, slash podcast, and subscribe to us at any of your favorite podcatchers.