Beyond Betrayal | The Making of 'The Crimes of Margo Freshwater'

00:00:00
Speaker 1: I have the incredible Cooper Mall here with me today to talk about the Crimes of Margo Freshwater.

00:00:08
Speaker 2: Cooper, thank you for joining me today.

00:00:10
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me, Dre.

00:00:12
Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about your new project, Glass podcast new project, the Crimes of Margo Freshwater, because we both had our hand in it in one way or the other. But it's something that I feel like we've dedicated a lot of time to and I just am excited to share a little bit about the story with the Betrayal audience.

00:00:32
Speaker 2: For people that don't.

00:00:33
Speaker 1: Know, this is a story about a set of circumstances that led a woman to go to Tennessee and meet somebody that resulted in a crime spree, a murder spree, and a number of people ended up dead. And so it's a complicated thing to approach because there are people that lost their lives.

00:00:55
Speaker 2: Walk me through.

00:00:56
Speaker 1: Because this story was something that at Glass we were developing for like a few years. It was always percolating in the background. There was something gravitating me. My colleague Ben, my colleague carry towards Tanya aka Margo. When you came onto it, you were meeting this material with like fresh eyes like new, like you didn't know much about it.

00:01:19
Speaker 2: So tell me what it was like to.

00:01:21
Speaker 1: Interact with the story for the first time, and what stood out to you that made you think I need to be part of this.

00:01:27
Speaker 4: I think for me, I've always been interested in double lives, or people who have to create another identity, and not always because they're being malicious or they're being deceitful, but out of necessity. And I've always been interested in the psychological toll of that.

00:01:49
Speaker 3: I mean, what is it like to keep up.

00:01:51
Speaker 4: With all of the stories and lies and all of the different things you have to be able to carry with you in order to have that new identity be something solid right, and that you never how do you slip into a new skin like that? But this one was different. I felt somehow emotionally connected to it from the jump, Like I'd seen these photos of Margot when she was a teenager, and I'd seen her mugshot, and I'd seen the way she was talked about, and I think I instantly felt some sort of kinship to her, or some sort of relatability to her. Growing up, I maybe could have been characterized by other people as a wild child. However, I was a very deeply sensitive, creative, kind of just a lot of feelings type of person.

00:02:41
Speaker 3: But I felt that I knew her.

00:02:46
Speaker 4: I just saw her, and I just I knew she was misunderstood because I felt that way too, and there's just certain things about her that felt relatable to me, and I really just wanted to get to know her, and I wanted to get to know who she really really was and who she is, like who she is, who she exactly exactly and who she is. And while it's easy to look at this story and be like, wow, this person got away with living for three decades on the lamb, and you know, be interested in, like, you know, the how the she pull it off and all of that and the cat and mouse of it all, but I also saw a survivor. I mean just saw somebody who was very steadfast and what they believed about themselves, which was I am an innocent person and I'm going to do whatever it takes to get justice for myself. And there's something pretty badass about that. Anyhow, back to you know, the original question, which is what was that? Like, I mean, it just every year got more fascinating to me, and then and that was just and that was before I met Tanya formerly known as Margo Freshwater. And then once I finally met her, I mean that's when it was on. You know, it was just like she is. It wasn't like I was star struck or anything, but you meet her and you just realize how much, how much deeper this story goes, the testimony to the human spirit.

00:04:12
Speaker 3: That it is.

00:04:14
Speaker 4: The there's just there's so much nuance to this story with regard to what does justice mean, what does rehabilitation mean, what does innocence mean? What you know, just there's so many different things that you can take away from this, and to be able to have her parse all of that out for me was just unbelievable. And then approaching it, you know, I think we've all had that moment with this story that when I say all of us, I'm thinking of like you and Carrie and Ben, who really kind of started the development process of this, but where we kind of had an idea in our heads of who Margo Freshwater was, and so much of that comes from. Sure, there had been a lot of reporting on her crimes and her case and her trial, but it had always been from a singular point of view that she was this the woman behind the man, that she was the bonnie to this you know much older man's Clyde, that she was a wilful accomplice in this crime spree. And there's just was nothing in the record of her.

00:05:27
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about what you know about Glen Nash.

00:05:32
Speaker 4: Margot Paths crossed with him because a friend of hers had been caught up in an armed robbery in the Tennessee area. Glen Nash was an attorney who I would liken to a Bob Odenkirk and better call Saul. This is a guy who's kind of hanging on by his fingernails. He had been the Memphis Bar Association was looking into him. He had been disbarred in one city. And this was back when you could be disbarred in one city and then go set up shop in another. He'd already been involved in multiple police investigations, FBI investigations for robbery, et cetera. Definitely characterize him as a bit of an ambulance chaser and definitely doing stuff below board. And what's crazy about this is the span of time. This happens right within one month. I mean, she is completely living under his thumb, and you know, here's this eighteen year old girl, she's never been away from home, she doesn't have any money, and all of a sudden she's responsible for, you know, legal fees for a friend. And it all happens so fast, and it's easy to say something like, well, you know, why did she do that? Right, Like she could have just stay. Yeah, she didn't have to do any of that. But I think when you're an eighteen year old girl who's never been outside of your suburban Ohio home, really, who knows nothing about the lee, who knows nothing about how trials work or defense attorneys work, et cetera, I mean, you're going to believe the adults in the realm. There's going to be a level of urgency. There's going to be a level of fear, Like what if my friend is locked up and nobody comes to help him and I'm the only one who can save him, and this guy's offering me an opportunity to do that. I can totally see my eighteen year old self making the same decisions.

00:07:22
Speaker 1: Right, And I think, what the we talk a lot about this on Betrayal, about.

00:07:28
Speaker 2: Agency and decision.

00:07:30
Speaker 1: Making, and what I find so fascinating about this story, Cooper, is that it really explores the humanity in true crime because she had to She's making very intense decisions as a human being trying.

00:07:46
Speaker 2: To navigate a really volatile situation.

00:07:48
Speaker 1: She gets embroiled, she gets in the mix with someone who's not just an alcoholic but mentally unstable. Is it has a tenuous grasp on reality at this point, and it is getting more intense by the day, And so I think it is easy for people with distance to take a look at that set of circumstances and say, why don't you just leave? But there's like you said that she felt indebted to a friend. She wanted to make sure her friend was okay, And then you start realizing that you've been put in a situation that you actually can't get out of. And when when you come to that realization, it's sometimes it's.

00:08:37
Speaker 2: Usually often too late, and.

00:08:41
Speaker 1: That reality is something that I think gets glossed over. It's oftentimes something that we really explore on betrayal when people are saying how did you not know? Or why did this person make that decision? People really come at the decision makings of these subjects. And I feel like what's more important is to understand that these decisions are being made in survival mode. She doesn't really understand what her options are.

00:09:11
Speaker 2: She feels like there's very.

00:09:12
Speaker 1: Little options, and so it's less about meeting making, but more about it's in those moments of decisions that I think you can really see a human and it feels like a human story as opposed to something that's like kind of watered down or distilled for the sake of like the audience, right, like, let's make this digestible for somebody else to understand. But the reality is is that people make decisions all the time that we don't understand, and unfortunately, she got in a situation where she was with someone who was really mentally ill and then ended up taking people's lives. How did you hold space for both Margo's perspective, Tania's perspective, and the victims and the victims' families of this case, because that must have been really hard.

00:10:02
Speaker 4: This was especially tough because everybody connected to the victims in this story, I mean, we have to remember this all happened in nineteen sixty six, right to full grown adults. So many of the people connected to the victims and I mean I'm talking about like their grandchildren are deceased now. I think something that was very helpful for me in this process was I had somebody on my team who'd experienced being a victim of a family member being murdered, and I was able to lean on her for Okay, what would you want to hear? You know, if you're listening to this, what feels most sensitive? What you know, really checking in that I'm not missing something, And I think for me, holdings base for both of those things was really taking time in the writing process and having asides and the scripts where we kind of zoom out and look at just bigger picture without assigning guilt or innocence to anyone who these people could have been by now, or reminding our listeners that you know, these were real people, this happened too, and this is the time they lost, and kind of reflecting on what it must be like to have your life kind of deluded to what ended it? Right, I mean that that's kind of all the information that's out on these people is is sad.

00:11:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, they just become a name in a newspaper article and that's tragic. One of the things that feels really important to me when we were really exploring the story.

00:11:53
Speaker 2: And maybe this is just the feminist in me, but it became.

00:11:56
Speaker 1: Very clear very early on, based on the set of circumstances that Tanya was under and how sick Glen Nash was, that this is actually, like, it's not not a betrayal story, Cooper in some ways.

00:12:11
Speaker 3: There are a lot of many betrayals along the way here, so many.

00:12:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, And for me, what felt like the first one, the first big one, right, was when they both get arrested and Nash, you know, he gets he's it's decided that he's you know, criminally insane.

00:12:30
Speaker 2: He can't he can't stand trial.

00:12:32
Speaker 1: He goes to a mental institution, he goes he's.

00:12:35
Speaker 2: Committed, and now Margo.

00:12:39
Speaker 1: Has to face justice, she has the justice system on behalf of something that he did. And for me, it very much felt like an example of a woman answering for a man's crimes, and that to me, I felt like was at the heart of it. And what I think is very betray I'll ask, how does that resonate with you?

00:13:03
Speaker 4: I mean, I totally agree, and I think in this case, in particular, for two of the states where these crimes took place, they were not able. I mean, one of them they didn't even bring about charges because they couldn't tell where she was within relation to the crime. The second state it was a hung jury twice. They couldn't place her at these crimes. So by the time we get to Tennessee bringing charges, I mean, they come to her with this almost like retribution for these other trials that didn't go as they maybe thought they should have, right with her getting with her being convicted. So I feel almost like by the time she gets put on this Tennessee trial for the first murder and the spree, they're so locked and loaded and have it. They already have in their heads who this person is. It's as if the decision is made before the trial dated even set. They're out for blood. She's guilty. We need someone to answer for these crimes. And if it's not going to be the insane lawyer, it's going to be the young girl. To me, she could have been anyone. And I think that's the part of it that I can really start to like get my blood boiling, right. It's almost like she could have been anyone. She's just kind of a she's a vehicle for that. She's someone they can pin it on. Yeah, she could have been anyone. That's how it felt to me.

00:14:29
Speaker 1: It's hard, definitely when you're existing with it, with a case where there are people victims that lost their lives to really lean in to understand the story behind how they lost their their lives. But you know, the reality is that Margo was facing ninety nine years too, so she also was facing the fact that she lost her life. She was giving up that was taken away from her. Her life was essentially taken too. And so it's it's hard, right.

00:14:58
Speaker 4: I think about if this try happened today and we knew what we knew about it, that this was this young woman under dress, you would have tons of people online having you know, there'd be petitions, there'd be tiktoks about it, there'd be funds to try to get her out of the debate situation debates you know.

00:15:20
Speaker 3: That they're just there was no language for it.

00:15:23
Speaker 1: Then, right, And people are consuming information from a very few amount of sources, right, And these sources are really capitalizing on the story, painting her a picture, painting the picture of her as you know, Bonnie to her, Clyde and so it was a.

00:15:42
Speaker 2: Very different time.

00:15:44
Speaker 1: People are only getting information from her, probably from one place and depending.

00:15:49
Speaker 2: On what they're doing. And you and I know very.

00:15:50
Speaker 1: Well it's you know, sensatializing what the story is. It's you know, these two people on a murder spree, and and that kind of sealed her fate in a lot in a lot of ways. But what would you say, because you know, without any major spoilers, would you say, is like, you know, for true crime fans, what unique elements.

00:16:14
Speaker 2: Are part of this story?

00:16:15
Speaker 1: What differentiates Margot's story from other true crime shows to get people interested in the crimes of Marco Freshwater?

00:16:23
Speaker 4: Well, I think what makes this a very different type of fugitive story.

00:16:29
Speaker 3: I want to still make sure.

00:16:31
Speaker 4: I mean, this is such an entertaining story, but there is something about Tanya, who you know, Margot becomes.

00:16:40
Speaker 3: That is, there's a simplicity about her.

00:16:43
Speaker 4: And I don't mean that in the fact that she isn't extremely bright and interesting and compelling. But this is not your typical kind of cat and mouse. There's this person leaving bread crumbs. There's you know, the fugitive is leading bread comes or the fugitives fugitive is continuing to commit crimes and there's someone you know on their tail.

00:17:05
Speaker 3: I think, what's so fascinating about this story.

00:17:09
Speaker 4: And that makes you know when I say simple, she's leading a simple life.

00:17:13
Speaker 1: She's living She's not a criminal mastermind.

00:17:15
Speaker 4: No, And we learn so much about the inner monologue of somebody in this unbelievable situation, and I think that is really what makes this story and this particular story original, right. Typically, if you don't have access to the person at the center of the story, you're kind of imagining what this would have been like. And so if you are somebody who wants to know what it is like to be up in the head space of carrying this in secret with you for thirty years, kind of always having to be one step ahead. And what's fascinating about her is, although it is always in the back of her mind, there's this paradox where at the same time, it's almost like she had to stop thinking about it.

00:18:10
Speaker 5: It's like she almost knew that it would be weirder if she acted strange or did too much. We get inside of her head in this series, and that is in the first hand account of what those thirty years were like, is just so much of it surprised me, right, I think most people would. I don't know how I'd be able to just keep going knowing that I'm I think a huge secret.

00:18:40
Speaker 1: I think about the anxiety that I deal with just thinking about like waking up and waking up and thinking I didn't finish this one assignment that's due for school. I haven't been in college for sixteen years, Like I still live with that residual anxiety. I don't know how I would man holding something so big, and also the pain and the grief of having to walk away from your family.

00:19:10
Speaker 2: Because that's a necessity.

00:19:12
Speaker 1: Not being able to say goodbye to your loved ones, or knowing that any connection to your home and your family means forever in present like that is a very difficult, lonely, isolating feeling. But just having to keep persevering. It's really incredible. I feel like watching you report and write on this show was actually like the top five joys of my year last year of watching you really throw yourself into it, fall in love with the story, feel committed to the storytellers.

00:19:51
Speaker 2: In this case, it was really a joy to watch.

00:19:56
Speaker 1: How do you feel like the story changed you as a person?

00:19:58
Speaker 2: As a producer, as a writer.

00:20:01
Speaker 3: The amount of perspective.

00:20:04
Speaker 4: On life, womanhood that I gained in the process of getting to know Tanya, I just there's so many moments along the way where I just my mind felt blown or I felt so.

00:20:18
Speaker 3: Overwhelmed with emotion.

00:20:19
Speaker 4: You know, there are just certain things that the amount of grit and perseverance this person had just made me, you know, gave me perspective in the sense that there are certain things in my life that just really aren't that bad or and I don't want to say that she's this downtrodden person. It was more has more to do with her outlook on like when things get bad, I can't I can't dwell on it.

00:20:46
Speaker 3: I just I just, you know, she says, I just had to keep going.

00:20:50
Speaker 4: And there's something about her code, her life code that although you could say is you know, shrouded and seat or whatever if you want, that really is like there are a lot of gems in there to live by. And I think that I was really struck by that. But this, I think story is also a reminder that you know, it could be tomorrow, it could be five years, it could be fifty years. Like the truth always comes out, and I think that is the patience this person gave that process is fairly remarkable.

00:21:32
Speaker 1: And what you can account from me, it was like what you could accomplish when you have somebody in your corner or people in your corner like what she was able to. I'm sure she feels grateful for Stephen Ross Johnson, her attorney, her defense attorney, that is someone that never gave up on her. I mean she had two people that never gave up, gave up on her in two very unique ways, one to bring her down and the other two help get her freedom. And it's a really interesting pursuit. What can happen when you just at least have one person that believes in your innocence, one person that believes in you. And for for Tania, it was Steven.

00:22:09
Speaker 4: Yes, that is so true, and I think, yeah, another major theme of this story is forgiveness. And there are people along the way that Tanya views with so much grace and compassion and even love that you know, I find I found myself like I do not know if I could I could do that. I don't know if I could do that. But it also, I mean, this is somebody who is seventy seven years old. Now, not to make it about this, but I mean she she's in incredible health. She looks amazing. You know, you'd think that carrying a secret with you and having to be on the move all the time, which is kind of like age you and keep a you'd have a chick on your shoulder, et cetera. And I almost feel like she is an example of like if you walk around this world with like loving kindness, and that's the longevity key right there. There's just something about her where I'm like, wow, I could probably approach people a little bit kinder.

00:23:15
Speaker 1: Right, And make no mistake, she's tough as nails. She's tough as nails, but there is a lightness. There is a lightness to her, like she lets go what she needs to.

00:23:25
Speaker 2: Let go of.

00:23:26
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that is something you know, when we go back to like how did this change you? I really that was I think a lesson I've personally needed. Right, It's just like when to when to let go, when to let other people have their story and just know who Tanya has always known who she is and I think that and and what she did and all of these things right, and she has never wavered on that right, and despite what other people have said about her, she has never let that influence her opinion of herself.

00:24:00
Speaker 3: And I think that is tough to do.

00:24:04
Speaker 4: And then I think, for me, you know, you'd ask like how it changed me as a storyteller or whatever.

00:24:09
Speaker 3: I definitely felt this.

00:24:11
Speaker 4: Was the first I've always I have struggled as a writer sometimes when I think a story is even if I think a story is really amazing or crazy or whatever, it's not all the time that I get to feel so personally connected to my sources who are helping me tell a story, or just kind of some of the themes in a story in general, or the protagonist in the story. While of course I'm trying to toe the line between me like a neutral reporter in this story, I also found ways, I feel like, throughout my writing to insert myself, and I think that as you listen to it, it's clear that I get.

00:24:52
Speaker 3: More emotionally invested in the story as it goes.

00:24:56
Speaker 4: And I'm really grateful that Glass, Sony you been were a game for that, because I don't know if there was a way I could have told this story without without.

00:25:07
Speaker 3: The you know, inserting my own human journey and.

00:25:11
Speaker 1: Telling it it's true. Yeah, it's because there's tension there when that happed, Like when you feel that push pull, it's it's tense, and it actually is harmful to the writing.

00:25:24
Speaker 2: It makes it even harder, you know.

00:25:26
Speaker 4: And you probably remember this like in the beginning, because obviously we're writing it knowing everything we know now, and you're writing the first episode and I'm thinking to myself like cut, Like it's so it was so weird for me to access being like putting my like I know nothing about this person and I'm going to cast suspicion on them or whatever. There were times where I was like, I know, we this is how you tell a good story, and I'm thinking about her feelings or everybody else's feelings while listening to it or whatever. But I mean, those are things we all get over as we do this, And you know, I knew. I was like, Tanya's going to listen to these and the first three episodes are going to be hard, but she's going to know, like.

00:26:06
Speaker 1: Some people don't give me the benefit. Yeah, some people don't give you the benefit of making their way through it. There's there are some people that you work with that will listen to one thing and then bail and then make their own decision about the trajectory of where you're going to take the story in the season, and that's that's their choice. But when there's real trust and there's real clarity when producing, and which is clear that you cultivated trust on every side of the sources, like every I think it's a testament to how people perceived your commitment to the story and the trust there. So I absolutely enjoyed working with you. And top five joys of the of the year for me is working alongside you, looking at your work ethic, how you dedicated yourself to the story. Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you feel like is important to share with the try audience, because I think this is this is a story for this is a story for our betrayal listeners for sure.

00:27:07
Speaker 4: Well, the show is at its heart or its core and has been marketed as a true crime story. I think what's interesting and sets the crimes of Margo Freshwater apart from some other crew the other true crime narratives is I really believe this is a This is a story. This is a human story that whether or not you're a true crime fan you can connect with at some level.

00:27:38
Speaker 3: You know.

00:27:38
Speaker 4: I didn't necessarily set out to do that when I was making it, But then looking back, you know I and listening to it back, I realized this is in some there's there's a genre bending aspect to this podcast. And now I feel like we can all look back at it and be like, wow, okay, this is this is true crime. And then some I don't know what what that that some is, but I know it's different and I know people can connect with this, you know, whether or not, you know, like that's your thing.

00:28:08
Speaker 1: It's a ride, It's a rollercoaster ride of just really understanding, you know, this whole story. I don't want to spoil anything for our audience who are like that, are just interested in this story, Buddy will say, you know, your story really picks up. The trial happens, she gets sentenced ninety nine years and Margo has a decision to make and it's I'm not I'm not staying here. I'm not accepting this course of action. I'm not accepting this fate. And she takes her life in her own hands, and so you and I will leave the audience to go and figure out what happened and the years that follow well, thank you for everything. I think you did an incredible job. I can't wait to work with you again, and I hope that day comes sooner rather than later.

00:28:58
Speaker 4: I just you, like I know this was I just I look back, and I mean, but not even looking back, I mean, while I was in it, it was so unreal to me that I was entrusted to do this and it really couldn't have really really couldn't have been done at all, or and especially at the pace it was done in without the incredible groundwork by you by Kerrie Hartman, by Tray by Ben.

00:29:24
Speaker 3: I am so grateful for that. It was awesome.

00:29:27
Speaker 4: I just I will always I will really really cherish this experience