Disability Advocate Heather Avis on Shifting Narratives and Promoting Inclusivity EP 417

00:00:09
Speaker 1: Hi.

00:00:09
Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker.

00:00:15
Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, and course creator. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families.

00:00:24
Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds.

00:00:42
Speaker 4: This is Laura.

00:00:43
Speaker 2: This episode is airing in late July of twenty twenty five. Sarah is going to be interviewing Heather Avis, who is a New York Times bestselling author, public speaker, podcaster, and down syndrome advocates. So we're going to talk about her really important work that she is doing. So, Sarah, do you remember, I mean this whole thing of disability advocacy and things like that. I mean, when you were growing up, do you remember being around a lot of children who had differences.

00:01:12
Speaker 3: I don't remember a lot of it, but the people that I were around definitely made big impressions on me. And I'm super excited for this work that Heather is doing, because I think the more visibility and the more people are talking about this stuff, the better. My memories are very specific. We had one of my fellow campers when I was in day camp was born with one arm, and I just like, remember I was little, and the first time I saw her, I was like, well, that's different. And then we just got completely used to it. I mean, I'd see her year after year, and like I'd notice how other people noticed it, and I'm like, oh, right, that's different.

00:01:44
Speaker 1: But for me, it was just so normal at that point.

00:01:46
Speaker 2: So and you said she was a swimmer, That's what I love.

00:01:49
Speaker 4: Like she.

00:01:52
Speaker 3: I remembered her being a very fast swimmer, So yeah, she she had no problem.

00:01:56
Speaker 2: She managed to figure that out. I love it.

00:01:58
Speaker 1: I love it hundred percent.

00:02:00
Speaker 3: And there was also a little girl when I was a counselor at the same camp that had cystic fibrosis, and I didn't know what the condition was, but we had to give her her enzymes at meals and I just remember thinking, oh, she seems completely fine, and they say, this is like a whole thing. And then of course I learned later as a pediatric resident that it can be so incredibly serious, especially back then. Now there are more treatments for many of these things. But yeah, I just this work that Heather is doing. I'm just so happy because I just think the more people talk about it, the more people see others in society with different needs, and the more that she can change perspectives on it what might mean to have a difference the better.

00:02:39
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Well, I'm very excited to hear what she has to say, so please enjoy this interview where Sarah's talking with Heather Avis.

00:02:46
Speaker 3: Well, I am so excited to welcome Heather Avis to the show. She is a New York Times bestselling author, public speaker, podcaster, and down syndrome advocate, and she has an interesting story as well as she has really built a beautiful platform around changing certain narratives that I believe has benefited so many people. We've had requests for topics like this, So welcome Heather. I'm so excited to have you.

00:03:11
Speaker 1: On the show.

00:03:12
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. It's a thrill to be with you today.

00:03:16
Speaker 3: Well, I think I've read a little bit about your kind of origin story and how your passion grew from some life experiences, but our listeners might not be as familiar. So why don't you go ahead and give us your background, Like what got everything started?

00:03:30
Speaker 4: Sure? So I am from southern California and I lived there with my husband and three kids. And my husband and I got married many years ago. I was twenty years old. Think we're about to sea our twenty third anniversary. And I had one thing I wanted in life, and that was to be a mom. I wanted that more desperately than anything else. And early on into our marriage, when we started to try to have kids, we couldn't have kids naturally, and we ended up towards walking towards the path of adoption. It's a very long story of infertility and getting to that point, but that was where we felt led, is to walk down the path towards adoption. And when we were pursuing an adoption plan, when you pursue adoption plan, you get to check off what you are open to and not in a potential future child. It's like a very wild, surreal checklist. And so we had said no to any major health issues. Ultimately, we wanted a healthy infant. Well fast forward, we've been a waiting family for over a year, and we learned about a little baby with Down syndrome who'd been placed with our agency. And when I learned about her, it wasn't like are you interested? It was more of an update of what's happening. Because we had said no to Down syndrome. We had said no, she had a congenital heart defect, she had a slew of medical issues. We said no to all of those things on paper. But when I learned about her, it was one of those moments like I wish I had never heard it because I couldn't unkno it and the knowing of it changed something in me. And I call like the spark in my heart. And so again, fast forward, so many details, but we ended up saying yes to our daughter. Macy named her Mason a caller Macy. And she came home at three months old, like I said, with a big old hole in her heart. She had opened her surgery a month later, she was on oxygen medication. All kinds of health issues are medically fragile baby, and she had Down syndrome. And I call her my scariest and best Yes, I was so terrified of everything she was on paper. And then she came home and wrecked me and changed me forever and for the better, and then that we pursued two more adoption plans after she came home. We are our middle daughter, Truly, so Macy is now seventeen. We have our middle daughter, Truly, who's fourteen and she doesn't have any disabilities. And then our youngest son, August is eleven and he also has Down syndrome, and that's an.

00:05:57
Speaker 1: I see him in the background, yeah.

00:06:00
Speaker 4: Blogging about it, and that turned into a book deal, and then Instagram came around and I started sharing what I call shifting narratives and shouting worth and I've had the opportunity to make my life's vision and a career out of showing the world how incredible people's disabilities are.

00:06:17
Speaker 1: I am so curious.

00:06:19
Speaker 3: I'm actually a pediatric endochronologist, so I do care for a good chunk of kids with Down syndrome, and I am so interested to hear about the narrative shifting. I mean, like, the only thing I can come up with, specifically is that they're so different, like there's not one prototype, Like kids have different challenges and different medical issues that come with it.

00:06:40
Speaker 1: But I want to hear.

00:06:41
Speaker 3: From you, who obviously is much more of an expert than me. What are the narratives that you feel like have needed shifting and what does that mean to you.

00:06:49
Speaker 4: Yes, my kids have lots of specialty doctors, but we don't see in dem so that's when we don't see. But when I learned about our daughter Macy, like I was sharing, I call her my scariest and best. Yes, the scary part was and why we said no to her on paper, no to a child like her, was because the narrative around Down syndrome is so negative. You hear a lot of parents get in utero or at birth diagnosis and the feeling that they feel you almost always, not one hundred percent of the time, but most of the time is one of sadness and grief and dread and despair and all of these negative feelings that are connected to this diagnosis. Most of those people, the majority, have never experienced a person with Down syndrome. So it's a narrative that society has been creating and feeding us saying Down syndrome equals bad, not that blatantly sometimes, but it's just our perspective in the stories and what we know or don't know about Down syndrome. And I would say, disability at large, our society has decided disability equals bad, and so if it's bad, then it's we want to avoid it. And then I bring this baby girl home, and I remember that very first night, right out. We picked her up from the agency, like from the office, and we met the foster family there. She wasn't living at the agency, and we bring her home and I walk her upstairs and she's already fallen asleep on my shoulder and I sat in the corner with this baby. She was so little, she was less than ten pounds at three months old. And I'm looking at her face and I'm in love, right, And two weeks prior, I was terrified and I'm thinking, I look at her and I said out loud, I can't remember what I was so afraid of, like, look at this baby. And then that started to create a new story, a new narrative in my own life. And as she started to get a little bit older, within the first couple of years of her life, I'd find myself doing life, going to the grocery store or the park, lots of doctor's appointments just in our community, and most of the time she was the only person with down syndrome in a space almost always. And I remember being at the park one day and watching her pole to stand on a piece of ground equipment, and she was probably two, like most kids are walking and just being elated and looking around at the other people like do you see thinking like do you see what's happening? And it's in their minds like no big deal, right, A two year old's pulling themselves this stand. And the feeling that overcame me was how lucky I was that she was mine and how afraid I was of her, like remembering that narrative, and so it really started me on this mission to tell the bigger, truer story of down syndrome. And it's not one of rainbows and unicorns, Like it's hard. There's a lot of things that are hard. But life is hard, and parenting is hard, and raising a child is really really hard, and being a human can be really really hard. But heart isn't bad. Heart is just hard. And so I wanted to tell this bigger story and I did that initially by sharing just our experience, like a day in the life. I did that with things like Instagram, and then I've had the opportunity to meet hundreds and hundreds of families in the Down syndrome community, and oftentimes they felt it was a very similar narrative and like we were here, which was terrified, and we came here, which feels lucky. And I started using this phrase the lucky few, feeling like few of us love someone with Down syndrome, and those of us who do are so lucky. And as I threw that into the world through my language, through my writing, through a hashtag, the downs in your community just grabbed a hold of it with both fists, like, yes, this is it, this is it, this is it again. Not one hundred percent of us, and that's fine. We all have our own unique lived experiences. But for the most part, that idea of feeling so unbelievably lucky to love a person with Down syndrome has been the biggest narrative shift for me.

00:10:44
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I think you this is a record for the most chills I've gotten the intro of a guest that we've ever had, because that was just like, so beautiful and so true. And I think a lot of it is about like expectations versus reality, and the fact that you've been able to share your reality and how beautiful it's been, and all the different realities that look different ways out there, but still that it doesn't make them different, doesn't mean less than it's just like different. I can see how much value that must be adding to the whole community.

00:11:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean my life is so deeply enriched by loving a person with a disability, like coming alongside in mutuality with my friends who have disability, being my kids parents, in honoring who they are with disability. It's completely changed how I am as a person for better, always for better.

00:11:37
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

00:11:38
Speaker 3: Well, we're going to take a quick break and when we get back, we're going to talk a little bit about differences, since I think naturally when you have somebody that might have some outward physical differences or maybe they're invisible differences, that invites questioning from the world, and you are a great person to answer questions the rest of us as to how to best handle that.

00:11:57
Speaker 1: So we will be right back.

00:12:11
Speaker 3: All right, we are back, and I think we'll have to go back to the stuff you were just talking about because it was so powerful. But I also want to talk about comparison, because I think you have a lot to say in this realm, and a lot of it does relate to children that have various.

00:12:27
Speaker 1: Types of differences.

00:12:29
Speaker 3: So kids are going to compare themselves to their classmates, to a kid that might look different than them or achieves them milestone at a different age, et cetera. I can't imagine that you can stop the comparison, or at least it's hard, because I think.

00:12:42
Speaker 1: It's partly human nature.

00:12:43
Speaker 3: But how along with the comparison, can you help there be like a celebration of uniquenesses instead of just anxiety or negative feelings about the differences. Yeah.

00:12:53
Speaker 4: I think it was Roosevelt who said comparison is the thief of all joy, and not the first time I heard that. I'm like, yeah, that is so true. How much joy comparison has stolen from me? And like you mentioned, I think it's just a natural thing to do. I don't think we need to feel shame about it. I think with how how we let it affect the rest of who we are and how we live life, I think is where the rubber hits the road. But to feel that like jolt of huh, like I noticed this is different from this, I noticed this person can this person can't like that's just being observant. You're going to be comparing. There's places where comparison offers incredible growth for so many different people and different experiences, But I do think the majority, especially in parenting, I'm I'm sure you can relate to this. Like, man, the amount of times that as parents and caregivers we look at what this kid to our right and left is doing, and then we think, if only we change their diet, get more sleep, watch this show, Like we can list the things that were like, if we do these things, then maybe my kid can be more fill in the blank, right, So that's all happening for me with my experience. I can tell a quick story with my daughter Macy. I remember initially comparing her to her non disabled peers and knowing that she was going to be delayed from the very beginning, like almost every milestone was going to take her a lot, a lot longer. So there was like a gentleness in that comparison. And then we got into the down syndrome world more and comparing her to her peers with down syndrome, and that just created shame and disappointment and took all my joy awake because it's like, wait, this kid also has Down syndrome and they're walking, and Mason hasn't taken her first step. What's wrong with my daughter? That's right with this person. Okay, So then fast forward a little bit. I remember Macy was five and we were at a learning program for families with Down syndrome specifically, and she was working with her peers and professionals. And then I was in a group of parents and we were talking about telling time, like helping our kids with math and time telling or something like that, and the woman in charge said something along the lines of, isn't that why we do all of this meaning, like these learning programs and the therapies and all of this learning so that our kids can be more like the typical peers. And it stopped me in my tracks and really changed the trajectory for me of how I parented and how I viewed my children, and I viewed myself in that I thought, wait, no, my goal for my daughter with Down syndrome is for her to be her best self. But I had never stopped to think through that. I had never stopped to realize that until that moment when it stopped me and I thought, wait, she has Down syndrome. It's a beautiful part of her. I don't want her to not have down syndrome, And what an exhausting thing for her to have to spend her entire life doing to be more like someone else. No, I want Macy to be Macy. And that right there became, like I said, this defining moment, and as I moved forward in all my parenting, and still today, it's almost like this tether that I go back to because the comparison will pull me right and pull me left. But this remembrance of we're going to pursue any kind of activity or special way of eating or therapy with this goal in mind, that my children are their best selves, not someone else's best self. And that little like nugget, as simple as it sounds, has been so freeing in how I parent, and freeing for me too, write like if I'm doing my best, that has to be enough, because if it's not, we're just going to fail, fail, fail fail. Like all we can all be is our best, and our best is uniquely ours. So I find so much freedom and just like exhale in that truth.

00:16:52
Speaker 3: And everything that you said to me would apply also to other differences learning differences, physical differences, even just different relative strengths that your various kids might have or that your kids might have in comparison to their peers.

00:17:07
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have to.

00:17:09
Speaker 3: Also ask how within the family, now you have kids that have more typical pace of development and kids that have Down syndrome, do you have best practices for families navigating this because I feel like that in itself can be tricky. It's the kid against their peers. But I mean, I don't want to use the word against. Obviously that's what we're trying to avoid here. But as thoughts come up in either kid in the Down syndrome child or the typical child, and they wonder about these things, what are some great ways to talk about it or address it?

00:17:41
Speaker 4: Such a good question, And sometimes there's questions when we talk about like howe the how to's, how can we that have nice steps for us? Or like these laid out tools I have found and I can give some little pointers, but that when it comes to something like comparison, what we're talking about, it's such a posture of the heart. I think it starts with an internal investigation of what is it that I want for my child? Like simply starting they're like, what is it that I want for my child? And hopefully we get to the point where we say I want them to be their best self, because anything outside of that is unachievable. Anything outside of that is going to strip them and ourselves as their parents, of our humanity, of our dignity, because we're trying to be something that is that is impossible, and we're putting our value and worth on the things we can or cannot do, which can be stripped from us in any second of our lives. And that not to be like an alarmist or whatever the word would be, but that's the reality that at any moment in our lives, everything that we're capable of can be stripped from us. And so then where does our value and worth lie? And that has been the gift of the journey of being my kid's parents, and starting with being oldest may see is that she brought me to that place where I asked myself, what is it that makes her have value and worth? What do I want for her? And then the second part of that question is what gives a human value in life or value and worth? What is it that we decide make somebody worthy of living a honorable life with community and belonging in love. And for me, it came down. I had to strip it down very very like to the breath, tas of it's the heart beating your chest, the breath and your lungs and can you love and be loved? And if those three things are true of a life, then that life has meaning and value. That there's not a thing that we need to do or not do that's going to take away or add to that meaning and value. It's just inherent. It just exists because you exist. And I believe that with my whole heart for my kids. And with comparison, it's interesting because Macie as my oldest with Down syndrome, My son August, who's eleven, is six years younger, and there's skill sets he also has Down syndrome are so different. And August has surpassed his sister who's six years older than him in many ways as a person with Down syndrome, in a lot of his skill set that he has a lot of his abilities. But it's not something that rattles me or upsets me at this point because of that foundation that I had the opportunity to lay all those years ago, when Macey was so young, and then you added my middle daughter to the mix. Truly, and truly is one of those kids that when she tries it, she's good at it, Like she's gorgeous just her look, her personality. Every sport she tries she's good at. She's an incredible singer, she can dance, she's songwrites. I mean, it's just the other day we went to like maybe a month ago, we went to throw frisbees and I didn't even know she could throw a frisbee, And I'm like, this is unbelievable. How good you are throwing a frisbee. This is just truly, And I think if I didn't have Macy to tether me and anchor me to the truth of should be only your best self, that I would be holding truly skill set with pride like this is something that I did right, or she is an example of my accomplishment as a parent, and also putting that pressure on her to be the best at all of those things, the best, not her best, And instead I can look at her and say, oh, babe, I am so proud of who you are, like this is amazing, And then she can choose the thing that she wants to do well, and we're going to invest in that. She'll take lessons and she can practice, and we'll do all that investment. But at the end of the day, I can look at her and say, oh, babe, if you lost your voice today, then you could never sing another note, and she can know in her heart of hearts that's not going to change at all, how amazing you are, how much I love you, why I love you. So it's really that foundation of an understanding and that internal work that we get to do as parents. Hope that's helpful and not annoying or confusing.

00:21:58
Speaker 1: Oh, not annoying at all. It's true.

00:22:00
Speaker 3: I mean, like a pre recorded script would be awesome, but I mean that's even more valuable that like teaching them that their worth is about them trying in them being their best self that they can be at that time with what they have at that moment. It's the most important is you're right, probably is going to prevent a lot of those cascades from happening in the first place.

00:22:20
Speaker 1: We're going to take another quick.

00:22:22
Speaker 3: Break and talk a little bit about affirmation and how to I mean, I guess we kind.

00:22:27
Speaker 1: Of talked about that a little bit.

00:22:28
Speaker 3: But I want to talk about I like versus I love, especially because that plays a role in your upcoming book.

00:22:33
Speaker 1: So yeah, you will be right back.

00:22:47
Speaker 3: All right, we are back, And in your work you talk a lot about how do we positively affirm our kids, But also you talk about using the words I like, and I think you actually just did it in the example you just gave, which might even be more powerful, you say, than the concept of love. So what's the difference there, and why would you say that?

00:23:07
Speaker 4: Yes, so, I don't think there's anything more powerful than love. I think love is the ultimate of all things we build are all goodness on. I think when I'm talking about when I say to say I like you or I like something about you, it's not that it's more powerful than love. It's that it hits a little bit with a little more girth. And if you think about this, like you hear stories about people who grew up in a home that maybe wasn't real lovey dovey, and they would say, I always knew my parents loved me, right like I always knew my dad loved me. That was never a question. But when I turned thirty and he said he was proud of me for this thing, right, or he said I like you. The weight of that is so big and important, and as parents and people are raising kids, it is a given we love our kid, our kid. I mean, my kids entered my hands through adoption, but like you birth the child, and just the love is just exists. It's almost like an unconditional thing. And I think often we can put conditions on like on what we like, on what we don't like. And so for our kids to know that we also like them and we like them just because of who they are, that it's not even necessarily a condition on what we like about them. It's not like I like you when you do this, only when you do this, like oh, no, I like being in the same room as you. I like when you come up and give me a hug. I like to sit next to you. Hey, I like you. Did you know that I like you so much? And when you say those things to our kids, I think it's a little bit if they're not used to it, like oh, and it hits harder, it sits weightier in a way that I think is really affirming for our kids. I think it's important for our relationship with our kids or just anybody in our lives too. I think it's very powerful.

00:24:52
Speaker 3: I mean, I haven't heard that before, but as you're saying it, I feel like, yeah, it is really powerful, and I'd like to verbalize that stuff worn. I could think about how even in different contexts, it might be nice, like I like taking you to soccer games or I like picking you up and whatever, and oh that's great, and I think not really as common, if that makes sense.

00:25:14
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's exactly what it is. It's just something that we don't It's like this opportunity and practice that we have as parents at our fingertips. That's so easy to say, but at the end of I think a lot of people will think, like, wait, when was the last time I told mek I like them, Like I like how they show up in the world. I don't know if I've said that in a long time, or even ever out loud. They know I love them, but what can I do today to show them how much I like them?

00:25:39
Speaker 1: Yeah that's beautiful.

00:25:40
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, maybe we should have a like of the week instead of a love of the week. I'm thinking about that. Hmm, what could I like of the week be? It might be different than my love of the week. But yeah, so that is our segment. I give you a warning, but I'll give you time to think about yours as I give mine.

00:26:00
Speaker 1: My like of the week is my marine Layer.

00:26:04
Speaker 3: Well it's a convertible fanny pack, and then it's also like a small purse, so it can be either and it's like the perfect size, and it kind of looks like those little lemon bags that like everyone has, which I also like those two, but it's just a little bit different, and it has color blocking and it's really not very expensive, and I got a lot of compliments on it when I just took a recent trip using it. So that is my like of the week. And I'm this is a non spawn like, this is just I got it for a Mother's Day gift.

00:26:27
Speaker 1: Just enjoy it. So I will share.

00:26:29
Speaker 3: That yours can be deeper than that. That was a pretty like surface level one. But I do really like that bag. But what is your love or like of the.

00:26:37
Speaker 4: Work this week? A great bag is something to like and love. I am traveling right now for summer. My family and I've been to a few different states over the last couple of weeks, and we were in Savannah Georgia, and I'm from southern California, and there's all these roadside stands in that neck of the woods up through like Charleston and South Carolina and stuff with boiled peanuts. Do you guys have boiled peanut? Okay, they've got them in Hawaii, and then they're all on this like eastern coast, like in the South, and we just there's nowhere you're going in California and getting a boiled peanut. It's just sort of thing. I love boiled peanuts. I think they're so delicious, they're so addictive, so that I bought a big old bag at a farmer's market and I have been loving those this week.

00:27:25
Speaker 3: I love that I live in Florida, where they do have boiled peanuts. But I remember going to college and there's one kid in my dorm from Florida and he would all he would talk about was like boiled peanuts. So that's when I first learned about them. So you're right, it's like only southern.

00:27:37
Speaker 1: It's like a Southern thing.

00:27:38
Speaker 4: I think it is a Southern thing. Well, you lucky Southern folks. I'm sure we can make boiled peanuts. I'm sure the process is not that hard, but it's fine. Yeah, a roadside stand boiled peanut is a good time.

00:27:50
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

00:27:50
Speaker 3: Well, I feel like we have only scraped the surface of your work, which I am super interested to read more of now myself.

00:27:58
Speaker 1: So I'm sure that is.

00:27:59
Speaker 3: True of our listeners, So tell them where they can find you, as well as your upcoming children's book release, which I think will bring that vernacular of liking into the open and kind of be a great starting point. And I got to look at the book and it's beautiful, So yeah, tell everybody about you.

00:28:17
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm at Heatheravis dot com and then my newest children's book. I like you so much, celebrating what makes you you is wherever books are sold. It's out now.

00:28:26
Speaker 3: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Heather.

00:28:29
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me.

00:28:31
Speaker 2: Well that was awesome hearing from Heather about the wonderful work she is doing as an advocate for people with various differences. So our question this week was sent into Sarah, so I will read it and then Sarah can respond. Listener wants to ask for advice about how you transitioned your travel planning after having kids, So this listener says in the before times, so before kids, she and her husband would take various trips to places like Europe. They had a long time before their son arrived, as they were dealing with infertility treatments and things like that. But the point is that they spent a lot of their life not worrying about the schedules of small children, flight times, small hotel rims, things like that. Their son is now five years old, so they are getting to the point where travel might be more possible again, and she's been trying to come up with a travel wish list, but her husband seems uninspired. She says, I think it's hard for him to translate what we did as a couple, with the various museums, historical sites, fancy restaurants, to traveling with a kid. They did do a trip to Montreal last year and had a great time, So any suggestions on how to help him get unstock from how we used to travel? So, Sarah, what did you think of this question? I thought maybe there was something else going on with this than just I don't know.

00:29:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought this was so interesting. I mean, is there like an element of oh, things are different now? So I don't see the good in any of those differences, or maybe just a little bit of like if I can't do it a certain way, I don't want to do it at all, or some planning challenges which we'll get into. But I think this needs to be like a serious conversation. I mean, travel can be such a highlight of family time, and if you're sort of hitting a brick wall as you're trying to think through it, I think this isn't something to just gloss over and move on.

00:30:27
Speaker 1: This is something to really delve into.

00:30:29
Speaker 3: I mean, the question is is it because he sees himself maybe traveling and not having the childcare that makes his life feel more doable, because that can be a hesitation, And if so, would it be easier to think about vacations where as a first step there is some provided childcare.

00:30:45
Speaker 1: I mean, hello, Disney Cruise would be an option.

00:30:49
Speaker 3: Or traveling with family like an older cousin that could do childcare, or even traveling with a nanny. If you want to go to Europe and you have someone that's willing to go with you, that could be awesome. You'd have some support on the road. Or maybe it just feels really daunting and he can't picture things looking different.

00:31:07
Speaker 1: But maybe you could.

00:31:08
Speaker 3: Write out some like pretend my itineraries of some shorter, more low key trips that would have some of the elements of the things that he liked before, but would feel more doable with a kid and the fact that your child is five, I feel like you're over the really really tough travel.

00:31:24
Speaker 1: Piece already, and there's so many fun things you.

00:31:27
Speaker 3: Can do, and Europe particularly, I feel like I just keep hearing how incredibly kid friendly certain countries are, with like outdoor play spaces and just amazing natural areas. So yeah, I think this needs to be like a full on deep dive in my opinion.

00:31:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe maybe. I think there's a couple things going on. I mean, one, I do like the idea of just deciding to do some lower key trips over the next year. So if you've got your travel bucket list, maybe some of those travel places are a little closer or more feel more feasible than others, and you might decide to book those for the next year or so to sort of help him get his sea legs under him, so that when you guys are deciding a year from now to go take that week long trip to Germany, which by the way, they like kids there. You'll be fine. It's like it will be good, right, he will all already have experienced like being on a plane for three hours with a kid, So now being on a plane for like seven hours with a kid, it's not a whole different thing. It's like you've done it. You've experienced your first flight delay with a kid, like you've gotten through it. You will be through. But I think it may also be that he just doesn't want to plan it. I don't know what you guys had. If he was the travel planner before and he's just feeling busy and overwhelmed between work, and then time outside of work is spent maybe all with your five year old. I don't really know what the setup is. But he just may not feel like he has it in him right now to plan a intense thing. So it's not that he's I don't want to travel. It says he doesn't want to plan it. So the pushback you're getting is not I can't imagine traveling with my five year old. It's like, oh, yeah, we'll think about that later. Yeah, Oh, I can't really talk about this right now. I have to go do something else. They're like, oh yeah, yeah, Well, why don't we talk about that in a week or two. It's like he doesn't want to plan it. Okay, so that means you do, like you just take this on and that may or may not be fair, but I mean I'm for now. If this is what you want to do, I say, look, look, we need to go somewhere for Christmas next year. We've decided that we would like to I'd like to try traveling. I want to go to X. Do you have any specific objections to going to X. He's like, well, I don't know if we should make a DISCISIONI I want to make a decision in the next week. If you have not decided and told me a reason no, in the next week, I'm going to book it, right and I think you will. Maybe that may sound a little but harsh, but he can give you a good reason in the next week of why, you know, like, oh, we don't have the money right now, Okay, that would be a reason. All right.

00:34:07
Speaker 1: We my mom really jet lag.

00:34:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, my mom is really sick and we need to make sure we're around to see her. If that's the case, he could come up with a good reason.

00:34:15
Speaker 4: But if he.

00:34:16
Speaker 2: Doesn't, then it's just the resistance to like planning it. And I think if you then plan it, he will probably find it okay. And then once the first big trip is done, I think you'll have the experience.

00:34:29
Speaker 3: Of enjoying it. No, it makes sense like that there might be a lot more inertia than there was before when you guys were in a groove and it didn't even feel that daunting to put together a trip, and now it's like, I don't even know how to deal with that. So it might be easier just to keep pushing it back.

00:34:44
Speaker 4: Yeah.

00:34:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you don't have to. You can make it happen. You can make it happen. All right. Well, this has been best of Both worlds. Sarah has been interviewing Heather Avis. We will be back next week on more with more on making work and life fit together.

00:34:58
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.

00:34:59
Speaker 3: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.

00:35:06
Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of Both Worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.