A Look Back: 10 Years of The Lapsed Fan

So I guess I'm hosting the LAPS Fan retrospective podcast. I don't know,
Hi, I'm TJ DeSantis. It's the LAPS Fan JP Sorrow, He's here,
Jack and Carrocio, he's here. It's that particular podcast, the Time
Lapsed Fan, the amount of time that his lapse has been ten years and
co chairs. How are you well? I'm doing fine. I really can't
believe that. I don't know. I don't know about you, JP,
but ten years is a little ridiculous when you look at the x account,
when you realize it was started pretty much on this day. I mean,
that's exactly it. It's really I mean again, I can think to the
conversation we had when I was in Florida and you called me up and you
said we should do a podcast, and I was, you know, I
can't believe that was ten years ago. It's horrifying in many ways. And
then also I think about the fact that you know the For me, it's
got a significant The first episode dropped right before my kid was born, So
I'll never forget how old my child is because I'll know when the last how
old the LAPS Fan is. By the way, I've been to that child's
birthday, yes, which was really weird because I was trying to explain it
to my wife. Yeah, we're going to go meet this guy that I
do a podcast with and she's like, oh, the wrestling one. Yeah,
the wrestling one. Right. Yeah. No, it doesn't get any
easier for me to try to tell people about this podcast that I don't really
do but I do, because that makes it sound like I'm even more in
denial than I actually might be. Yeah, I just I just don't do
it. I don't watch it, right, I don't watch wrestling, correct.
Yeah, it's embarrassing for me when I have to admit it. And
usually I get at least one or two people talking about, you know,
Bruno San Martino or something. But it's horrifying. I hate it. Like
that's the first thing I say when I tell people that I produce a LAPS
fan. I never talk. I guess we're destroying that on this one.
So that's again we've heard it in a long ten year history. We have
heard from you before. Yeah, yeah, three times, maybe no more
than like five times. Maybe live shows don't count, and and so you
don't talk, and what are they and you try to have them filled the
awkward silence. Well, I mean I hate to say this. If they
judge me too hard, I just show them the Patreon number that's available and
then they shut up real quick, Isn't It's so funny how fucking pathetic people
are that, Like if something makes money, they just go good, oh
yeah, that's it, right exactly. I always go right to the fact
that Jack's Jack's reporting background. This journalis it's always what I do. I'll
always like a good one. It's it's you know, but it's it's uh
yeah, it's about professional wrestling. But you know it's not just you know,
we talk about the history of the show and kind of like what was
going on, like you know, my my co host is you know,
been my oh yeah college and he was electorian of the class and and you
know he was you know, that's get a journalist from the Boston herrolin right,
So fast as I can punch that out, here's the key, here's
the key. It's about professional wrestling. But exactly, but that is,
that is what's always been talking about for ten years now. Yeah. So
if it go, if they if they give me shame, if they give
me the right feedback, I will say to them, uh, yeah,
Jack is a journalist, and then JP is, uh, you know,
a stage actor. And I used that one, yeah, because that that
is, to me, the real essence of what TLF is. It's real
journalism about a bullshit subject that no one ever talks about properly, and you
talk about it properly, and then you call upon JP's creative style to uh
sometimes reenact how it probably really went, apparently predict how it probably has gone
or will go unbeknownst to us, because you guys just somehow manifest the truth
or uh, you know, you have a little fun with it, and
it's it's crazy, and that's something that is truly special. And when I
explain to people like why the Lapse fan is successful, to me, it's
the fact that you guys are able to make evergreen content, like how many
episodes have they been? From top to them? Man, we're in the
parching four hundred. It's a weird it's a weird number there there. There's
never been a fully accurate three ninety. Yeah, but that doesn't mean obviously
three and ninety uploads. I mean, for god's sakes, everyone's two parts
and there's a ton of stuff that isn't numbered. Yeah, yeah, because
if you look at if you look at our eye MDB page, it's like
this was like eight hundred shows because it counts obviously each one as Wait,
there's a laps Fan IMDb page. Yeah yeah yeah, and it updates every
week, too, which is I have no con I don't. It's kind
of funny because I've actually been trying to add us to it and it won't
let me. It's like it says it's hilarious. I'm like, I've like
written in notes and stuff. You can't actually contact anybody on IMDb, and
so I'm like writing notes in my submission saying hi, I you know,
I own this show, like this is my show. I can verify,
and I like send all these different you know, I've sent screenshots of of
Instagram posts like showing hey, look see laps fan, like see Patreon.
See I've got all this stuff. Do you need my passwords for all this
shit? Because it's like they it just never gets approved. It never gets
approved. And I'm like, you know, if if, if this is
going to be my life's work, for God's sake, can I put my
parents? It's not apparently not exactly exactly. The Internet with database is like
no, no, no, this is not yours or in such a great
place where there's no human being behind anything that represents how we're perceived to the
outside world. I mean that that's what could go wrong. There nothing wrong
with that. But you know, when I think back and I look at
this catalog, I think something that's under explored, TJ. And kind of
why I latched on to the idea when you suggested it that we kind of
just have a chat ten years going and it's and what's the date we're marking?
First of all, this is the drop of the first episode. Is
the drop of the first episode was on May twenty fourteen. That is remarkable.
And I get a lot of questions TJ about like our you know,
shirt dog and stuff, and I don't think people necessarily know, like how
we figured out, like how to do a podcast about ring sports. If
I want to just point a phrase there to feel better about myself, how
about ring entertainment, ring entertainment? Yeah, but it was I mean I
just someone said, hey, this guy TJ's doing well a radio station.
As you were calling in at the time before the word podcast was really understood
to mean what it means today if it even existed. I mean, when
you started doing MMA Radio on shirt Doog, was it called a podcast?
I don't even remember. So my first show wasn't on shirt Dog. I
started a podcast quote on another website in May of two thousand and four.
We made the jump to shirt Dog in December of two thousand and five,
and that was the first first, like six weeks I was on shirt Dog,
I got an email that said, you should get your show on podcast,
and I was like, I think I need to own an iPod for
that, and I can't. I work in radio and I talk about MMA
on the side, so that's out of the question. And then like,
no, it's a section in iTunes. So yeah, so like we were
the Shirtog Radio Network, but before too long, everyone is just downloading a
podcast. I like to think that the Shirtdog Radio Network was probably the first
episodical podcast that was available every day on iTunes. So maybe maybe the first
podcast, if you will. But uh, yeah, not a word that
I understood by any means, and so you know, it's it was different
shows, a different host talk about MMA and JP. I don't know if
you remember any of this, but I all of a sudden started trying to
do this because I was told that all you need is skype and you can
talk to someone. Sounds like you're in the same room. That was revolutionary
to me. I I don't I don't recall that at all, But I
mean I knew, I always knew that you'd done, that you'd had I
mean, if we're one of one of my and I think I've talked about
it on the on the show before, but one of my favorite things has
always been when you were back in college, when you were uh were you
were you apprenticing or interning at the Globe. I don't remember, yeah,
yeah, which one, whichever one it was, yeah, whatever, But
and I remember, like all you always finding some route to get wrestling or
uh mma like to write an article about it. You're finding some way to
kind of weasel it in. And I definitely use weasel on purpose. Oh
yeah, you know. And and so I'm always I remember then you had
the radio show, and I knew you always were finding a way to kind
of like just sneak it in there. Indeed always, and it always cracked
me up, So, you know, but I don't remember I mean,
I meant to your point, you make you put your finger on something important,
because because I was able to do that as I was doing, you
know, coming up of that industry, I did was able to create work
samples of like what it looked like when I wrote about wrestling and in MMA,
and so you know, I'd interviewed John Cena, I had interviewed Dana
White, I interviewed a lot of the guys that were involved in the First
Ultimate Fighter and everything. So when when when the opportunity came to write about
MMA for what still today is not as the Fight Network in Canada, but
they had at the time a much different st ructure, and we're hiring a
lot of writers and really trying to cover boxing, MMA and pro wrestling like
you know, an authoritative way. They were hiring writers, and I took
a couple of assignments for Loretta Hunt, who was the editor at the time,
just you know, profiling different fighters and kind of getting acquainted with what
it was like to kind of be on the beat. The TJ's describing where
you're just day in and day out trying to cover MMA like you know,
ESPN covers any major sport right and producing features and everything, and so I
was able to get some traction with some of those features. And then Morrow
Ornalo, who went on to be a WW announcer and most well known as
as an m announcer I think in a boxing announced for showtime. He was
doing Fight Network Radio. At one time. I'd done a story for them
about a show that got shut down at the last minute in Mohican Sun Casino
in Connecticut, and he had me call in and do sort of like a
like an audio report of what I had written, because I really wasn't audio
forward at that time, and his feedback gave me this sense that like I
could actually carry a tune, so to speak, talking about this stuff,
not just writing about it. And then that same editor went over shirt Dog,
which was for years and years the leading MMA site, and I don't
know, t J, you must have got word to Loretta somehow that there's
like an opening, right, I think you came on? Did you come
on for a round table? Was that your first That's a good question.
I actually don't remember what the very first appearance was. It probably that would
make sense. But I also feel like I was involved with you know,
the m M A chat show, beat Down from the beginning beginning. All
right, so we're gonna tell a story. Probably shouldn't hear. That's kind
of the idea. Those are the best stories we tell. You don't have
to you know, you don't have to get too specific, but we're gonna
we're gonna go hard and and reveal, maybe for the first time ever,
the origin story of the Shirt Dog radio network bite Candy, Hello, do
you do whatever you feel? Whatever you feel? This guy is no longer
I mean he's with the gender, but that's fine. I mean giving up
keep giving up stuff. Uh my old editor at true dot com, who's
my co host. He he got a job for Sports Illustrated and he left
and we needed to replace him, and we did, and for a very
short period of time we hired this gentleman and there were just a lot of
things that just weren't working well on his side. Not not anything that necessarily
affected me, but one day he did need to run and he could do
like the first hour of the show and couldn't do the second hour, and
which was fine. So we're doing this all vious skype the way that you
had mentioned, Jack, and this this was live and we do the live
show. Thank God, this didn't happen live on the radio. But we
wrap up the show, he leaves, I do the second hour by myself,
and I'm editing the show do it live, and all of a sudden
I heard audio like that that just dared to ship out of me like that,
but I couldn't tell what it was. And uh, slowly but surely,
it sounds like an interview, and uh it's this gentleman going Candy Hello,
and this girl goes Hi, like, how are you doing? I'm
great, where are you from Chicago? All fine? Not really sure where
this is going. And then he goes how many men have you slept with?
I don't remember the response to that, but this is like, this
is like a pre COVID, you know, like masturbation session over soon.
That's amazing. By the way, the minute I heard audio, I hit
record on the editor of and then I figured out I'm still connected to this
guy. So whenever we talked about, you know, porn or salacious things
due to a sexual nature on the Shirt Dog Radio network, we would hit
the drop Candy Hello. It would also work anytime we get disconnected from Skype
and that person's eventual departure led to you needing someone else? Correct, Yeah,
sorry, Uh so we needed we needed to hire somebody else. And
uh, I think Loretta had thrown your name in the hat. Either it
was you had already been on a round table or Loretto. Yeah. Yeah,
so uh it made sense. And uh, you and I and a
gentleman named Lovey Sari Amic uh did beat down for a long time. And
uh then you started doing roundtables, which was basically our pre fight breakdowns.
And then you pitched this idea of this laps fan wrestling podcast and I'm like,
that'll last ten episodes. That'd be cool. How about ten years of
episodes instead? Right, you know? And I was like, maybe I
can get wrestle Zone to give us like fifty bucks an episode the same company
a shirt. Yeah, and then a couple of years later, hired from
that company the last fans the only reason I was able to make rent.
Uh. So you know, it all came full circle. The one thing
I've been thinking about, and i've been I've been I'm wondering, Jack,
can you recall because I'm and I really can't. I'm not even I'm not
quizzing you on something. Yeah, I don't. When was the first time
we got weird and just started like h and I mean I'm talking about like
in our friendship, not just on the show, but like, okay,
when we like when in college. Can I ask you one question here?
This might actually help because this is where I wanted to start, and we
already got off in the weeds, which is very TLF of us. I
know, there was that scene where you guys are in the college dorm and
Jack Sie's no mercy and he says you a fan? Yes, right?
Why were you in the dorm together? I had a project. We were
randomly assigned group together in a project for the class. The reason, the
really, the reason we're here is is because of I assume former Emerson professor
Tracy Meeker, who decided to give us assignment together. We were like two
of a group of four, if I remember, right, showed up and
it was the other one too, the fight club girl. I don't remember
her name, but the fight club girl. Okay, so she actually showed
up. And then she showed up. She showed up, and there was
the three of us and we were and and and no, it was like
the first thing for some reason we met and I don't know why we chose
my dorm room. But maybe because maybe because I was living with all seniors
and that they and they all were mostly gone. I knew you had a
different sweet situation. And then that don't maybe she didn't even have a sweeter.
Maybe she was like a nut triple or something. Yeah, but we're
in in the common room of my dorm suite and we're just talking about the
project. And you know, right from the get go, you see the
the N sixty four point at it. You a fan? Yeah, right,
And and then it was we'll talk after we're done. It was something
like that. It was okay, we resolved to re visit it. We
got we probably got weird for the first time when we realized that we both
thought it would be hilarious if Hulk Hogan was paranoid about the torch, and
we started joking and riffing about like Hogan protecting the torch and like that.
There was an audience for that kind of humor. Was a very pleasant surprise.
It's one thing to meet someone wrestling fan. Yeah, me too,
but it's another to get to the point where you're drawing a picture a poster
board of Hulk Cogan holding the torch and posting it in your dorm room window
looking out on the theater district of Boston literally down you know, down Tremont
Street. There is this this hand drawn picture of Hulk Cogan reaching up like
the fucking holy Grail of the Olympic, an Olympic torch, right, an
Olympic torch. And then that's when it's like, okay, we can actually
joke like this. And then they did the nWo Comeback Angle in two thousand
and two where Hogan literally pinned the rock at an angle they wasn't even a
match. That was that was that was a game changer for sure. That
was such an electrifying moment because that's the first example TJ in some ways of
what you were talking about, where we manifest things, where we get such
a beat on someone in wrestling's personality that we can sort of predict how they're
going to react in the future. And that and that was it. It
was like we always talked about Hulk Hogan like because he had done it in
WCW. I remember he pinned like somebody uh towards the tail end that wasn't
even in the match or something. He did that a couple of times,
Pindrick Flair at the Perfect censored there one time. Yet. So the idea
that you know Hogan is absolutely obsessed with getting the pinfall comes from some of
those those apocryphal tales in WCW. But then we're sitting there watching Raw and
you know he actually goes for the pin after they lay out the rock and
he gets the one two three. Someone counts one two three, counts one
two three, and that was like, okay, now this is this is
wild because because we actually can not only joke with each other, but then
sit down and look forward to seeing if it plays out that way, and
then be able to detect little signals that see that that's the kind of thing
we latched onto what you just did right there. And then you have the
Mystery Science three Theater. I can never say that, right, Mystery Science
Theater three thousand dynamic going, and you know you're really off to the races.
But you know we were talking about you know, the m A radio
days and uh TJ. You remember like I started talking about wrestling on some
of the MMA shows and people were like, all of a sudden, I
realized these people fucking love wrestling. That was. That was a surprise because
I remember being a little bit of a risk and they started talking about it.
They didn't all love wrestling. They absolutely hated the fact that you talk
it. I just I fell in love with your Steve Austin impression because you
didn't even say a bunch of things that Steve Austin. You would just say
what. And I was like, that's funny. I like it. There's
uh there. And this is where maybe Jack and I got weird for the
first time. There's a video clip on YouTube that someone made of an old
beatdown of us where we're just making the noises that Mike Oldberg used to make
on Yeah, right, and uh, I wish related that. What that
is he related to Bill? Uh No, if you laid eyes on him,
you wouldn't ask that question. No, especially the Whoopie one. But
but yeah, he has a very TJ you know, being from I think,
right the same part of the country. He isn't Mike from the Midwest.
I thought he was. He definitely worked in Minnesota for a while because
he was the lead play by play guy for the Minnesota Wild. I thought
for a brief period of time he had some ties to Detroit, but I
think he might be from Arizona, but he's also the right territories to to
kind of get up in the business. Oh yeah, did he almost to
Manhassan? Uh yeah, chan hassenerves but he Uh. But I realized that
TJ was actually pretty good at doing the Mike Goldberg and uh, you know
his intonations, like, you know, because he was after so many years
doing UFC's you developed you know, your your your verbal tics, and your
your sort of go to phraseology and your go to intonations and and we're and
and things like that, and so he was like, Nail, and I
was like, yeah, okay, now this is that there that we can
go there on this kind of a format. You know, it's is awesome,
Like let me let me see what I can offer right in the foolishness
and and some of that as some of the raw material of LAPS too,
because it helped me be confident when we started doing this that even if even
though in those early episodes you can hear a bit of hesitancy in our voice
to get really silly, I knew that if probably you know, most of
the audiences people that knew of me from Shirt Dog and we're like, oh,
just this, this happened back in the old days to a lot of
jap we called this, uh, we would called this being skyped all these
years later. Yeah, I thought that was over any right, And that's
a great question actually and when we need to answer with all due haste.
But so there I am going through the paces and I was like, you
know, if most of this audience that's starting with us here are shirt dog
listeners, which it seemed to me they were based on some of the earlier
things I heard about this wrestling venture and people you know, being interested.
I was like that, I know that they have an interest of tolerance and
enjoy a and can enjoy a good imitation, and so it's like, let's
just go. Yeah. I started doing one, and I was like,
this is I remember this being a hit, And just like you said,
TJ, from that that video that someone took the time and actually upload it,
told me that like, oh, that could be like a little bit
of you know, virality there almost yeah, And that that gimmick is still
how I warm up on every play by play show I've ever done in MMA,
so I cracked the mic and just start singing things in the way that
MIKEE. Oldberg would say those things. So, for example, where in
the world is Carmen San Diego? Do you ever watch the show? H
huh yes, okay, So I do this to warm up. She sneaks
around the world from Kieva, Carolina. She's a sticky fingered filter from Berlin
down to Belize coming up next. Oh that's exact voice. Yeah, Oh
my god. I don't even know who the guy is, but it sounds
funny. Yeah, so then's New Hampshire. JP Sorrow makes his way to
be octagon after watching professional wrestling with his mother. I can't think, honestly,
I would. I would love that. I would. I would.
I would love it if if my mom was my manager, if I ever
wrestled, maybe some time, maybe next time I do a renaissance rumble or
something like that. That would be amazing. Would be the man be my
second. And looking at the the X page and realizing, you know that
it puts us right back to twenty fourteen. I was remembering that, tij
You whipped that up real quick because we had, you know, we had
a social media presence on the shirt ogs side, and so you put a
picture of no Mercy didn't your N sixty four as the band? Oh my
god, we had a logo yeah, something like that. And then I
think there was a real initiative to make sure we could get on Twitter to
get a pro wrestling teas store. Yes, and we wanted a certainly followers.
Yeah, just remember the followers and then we bought them. Yeah.
Ever since, yeah, we for whatever reason, we have a huge clientele
on Twitter in Indonesia. You know, well it's real over there. That
might have something to do with it. But the interesting I do remember I
was just saying, I do remember you guys getting you know, quote unquote
weird. I remember when I thought, okay, this whole T shirt thing
is getting out of control. When you I don't know what show it was,
but you were talking about Disco Inferno and you decided to make the disco
Feurer shirt. I'm what are these? What? What? I remember?
The reference was it? It must have been because discov it was right,
probably Yeah, I mean that sounds that. I'm right, well, well
that was the thing too, like it kind of goes into the whole you
guys, you know, doing the lapse jukebox and uh, the terrible uh
you know, misinterpretations of the the lyrics of like the boss Man's theme he
travels with a fish stick or whatever. Dude, That's such a key point
in the show because I was like, am I really going to review this
about myself? Am I really going to like let people know that I hum
these things in my head like without having much of a degree of control over
it, and that I have these you know, this shorthand for these songs
that I find myself humming well, and I have no idea. Yes,
yeah, I mean I had the same thing Honky tonk man. What does
he say? I'm I'm big, I'm cool, I'm bad, I'm something,
I'm cocky, I'm cool, I'm cocky, and I'm bad. Yeah.
For whatever reason, I heard HACKU my man? What I'm cocky?
My man? And people were like in emails, they were like, yeah,
I do the same thing. Yeah, oh my god, this is
a problem. These people are exactly like us. The I remember this is
popped in my head to something that I remember being a conscious choice. I
remember early a couple early episodes, I was, you know, I as
you you know, I get Oftentimes, my my words start going way faster
than my brain and so I start, you know, stumbling over my words
and getting all you know, and I remember one time I was like,
you know, when you do that, you just gotta make fun of yourself
for it. You just gotta just fucking do it. And then I started
doing that, and I do the if I started, you know, getting
ahead of myself and go, oh yeah, yeah, you know I speaking,
that's like your Skype effect. Yeah right, but yeah, that's that's
I don't know, I don't know why that came to mind just now,
but it did thinking about on the early then we hit the journey. We
hit the journey, and where did I get the idea I had done it
for UFC? Right, I remember that, TJ. What do you remember
about that? Doing the UFC retrospective. There was like a period of time
where like the Shirt Dog Radio Network was going to be down right around like
the big like ten pole event. Yeah, I moved to la uh or
I was yeah, and we were darker as perfect because we had to run
that and everyone has wanted me to run it ever since, and I've ran
one. I can't find all the physical episodes I've tried working on it like
that. That's the issue with U with everything we've done at Shirtdog, Like
one day they just decided to turn off the media server. It still like
four thousand episodes of podcasts, so that hurts my heart. But yeah,
I mean you see that was the thing too. Like I loved the Labs
Fan. I thought it was gonna last for ten episodes, and then slowly
but surely, before the Labs fan was like making real money. I started
to hate the Labs Fan because I'm like, Jack's gonna stop doing these damn
round tables. Oh yeah, He's up until four o'clock in the morning talking
about oh yeah, Jake the Snake Roberts, and then I'm gonna have to
do more work and I don't want to do that. I'm sure enough he
left the round table, and uh it was okay though, because I was
like, I need more t left in my life. So that was great.
Yeah, it was great when I realized that you actually weren't just producing
the show. But then you'd call me and be like this was funny.
I'm like, it happened three hours into the show. He's listening. Yeah.
Yeah, Well, I mean either I would call to tell you it
was funny, or I would be going through like a drive through, and
the window would be down and just the worst terrible things JPSR could ever say
would come out, and I would just sit there and be like, Yeah,
yes, man, that's what he said. That's fine, don't worry.
Ah. We live for those drives through moments. We totally do,
because you know what, I never I don't. I never let that happen
myself. But just having to have a retrospectives, it was like, okay,
so if you actually march chronologically through things and it takes one hundred hours,
people are with you because they know where it's going, and if you
know how to carry a tune, so to speak, that you know they
appreciate the way you're framing it and the way you're summarizing it and the things
you're pointing out that they may not have remembered an addition to the things they
do. I didn't like ten UFC chunks. I was like, okay,
let's do that for WrestleMania, because, as we've talked about one hundred times,
we looked at the calendar after a few episodes of having done this and
realized that there were just about thirty weeks left to go until that year is
WrestleMania. We had yet to do a WrestleMania just by chance. It wasn't
a demission or a strategy, and we were and the thing was too we
were about to do it. We were about to do WrestleMania six because it
was just drawn out of the you know, out of the same fucking bucket
I'm using today and drawing the shows out the out of the thing. And
it was WrestleMania six. I'd already begun watching it, and then you called
and you were like, no, no, no, let's put it on
hold. You know, we'll do this instead, and and you know,
we'll do a couple other shows in the meantime, and we did in Tuesday
and Texas and then our Chairman's Choice. And that's when I started hitting your
TJ with like seven eight hour episodes because as we went through the wrestling and
we realized how hard it would be. Oh my god. Yeah, I
mean I remember, uh uh WrestleMania seventeen. I remember that was like the
first seven hour one. Yeah. I remember thinking you could fly internationally and
never have to change the podcast, yep, yep, And uh, I
mean you could find coast to coast, Yeah, you coast coast and I've
done that brother, by the way. I'll get to it in a second.
But there's so many things I want to talk about. We don't have
enough time. But at the time when you started TLF, I was producing
a lot of podcasts for a lot of different people, and I would tell
them, your podcast should never be under thirty minutes or over ninety minutes.
And here I'm in with like eight hour podcasts, And now I would say
your podcast in twenty twenty four shouldn't be under thirty seconds or over ninety seconds,
because as the attention span we have and TLF continues to break all the
rules, and damn right, the world is a potentially a better place for
it never entertained place for it. I remember being speaking about about show length.
I remember when we were set out to do our first episode of Summer
Slam. I was it was kind of funny. I was horrified that we
wouldn't have enough to say, which is like, are you kidding me?
Like it's like when you literally said that in that phone call, it's gonna
be like our phone calls, We're just going to talk, Okay, Yeah,
Like that should have been a clue enough. But I was so freaked
out because you know, there's a piece of trauma that always sits in my
head, this is this is okay? And it actually yes, it's it's
when we did when we did our first snn oh, this is a show
we did in college. Yes, yeah, our college news show that we
did TV class. Yeah. I was. I remember we kind of I
I at least for myself, I blew through all of my ideas in like
a minute, maybe probably like two minutes, three minutes, whatever, And
so we had all this kind of dead air time and I didn't know what
to do, and I was freaked out. I'm like, wait a minute,
how did we do this? How did we like, how did you
know? How do we miscalculate this? And so it was just very,
very very awkward for me. And again that's always been in my brain.
And yeah, and I was like, so I was horrified when we were
doing Summer Sam ninety one. I was horrified that we wouldn't have that we
that me not you per se me, that I would not have enough to
say. And then an hour and a half goes by and we're not even
halfway through the show, and this is before you felt like emboldened to you
know, do imitations and all that. Exactly. This is just us kind
of just like recapping the show and I'm like, oh, okay, well
we still got some more time here, and we get a lot to say,
oh, three hours three hours for first Okay, that seems a little
long to me for a podcast. But what did I know then? But
yeah, right, and that's and we didn't know what either. I mean,
it's not like we set out with a stre to go way long.
It's just what we realized is what people are going to expect from us.
The only reason we would have a reason to exist in the wrestling podcast space
was that you could count on us to keep going until everything was said,
whereas everybody else doesn't have the time, the inclination, or the ability to
do that right. And we're gonna not only going to do it, we're
going to do it so hard that by the time we're done, nobody else
even wants to try. Well, when you come down to it too,
and I don't I'm going to toot our horn. Well, it's fine,
we can tooot oround horn. It's TLFX, after all. But the thing
is, it is really the more I listen to other podcasts really that aren't
about interviews. If I'm trying to find you know, if I'm trying to
find something just to get more information, either on you know, a chat
wrestler or whatever, I'm like, I just want to I want to get
more information, to get some behind the scenes stuff that maybe I can't find
elsewhere. I realize that there aren't a lot lot of people who really put
in the work. That's right. There really aren't there there. That's what
I'm trying to say. That's very succinctly put. You know, there there
are a lot of people who will just sit down and they'll talk about it
and give their opinions, but there's nothing else to it for the most part
unless they know something, like you know, they they don't they don't dig
into the into the they don't know how to No, right, right,
it's not it you've learned this through cinemata, Yeah, totally. It's not
something that you can do even if you want to. No, it's something
you have to know how to do. Yeah. Yeah, and even now
it's it's it's a it's a a daunting, daunting task at times. TJ.
Let's go rapid fire through the points you wanted to hit on as the
MC of this thing, where as we talk to each other again like it's
any old episode. Yeah, favorite journey, favorite jury, boy. I
love them all like my children. I have to say Lamentable Tragedy, just
because you know the the that's the one we've gotten the most positive reinforcement from
you all the way up to Holt Mcaleney from the Iron Claw. I have
to go with that. That seems to me to be like peak TLF.
It's not necessarily my favorite one to do. I would have to say,
in some ways because of my personal interest, the Trial of his Life is
my favorite one to do, just to have a reason to get that granular
and march through the material and that kind of dedicated away. But I don't
know, what do you think, boss, I I mean in terms of
yeah, I come out of from two different places. I think for me,
I actually would say my favorite in terms of pure enjoyment, and actually
probably the one that I've gone back and I actually listened to more than once
is a w A I A nice there. There's something about that. I
just I the there's something fun about that one, A lot of fun and
uh, you know, from the from the movie to all the way to
the just the Sad End Pree w W F Hogan, all that stuff.
But in terms of putting something together because there really was nothing out there,
I agree with you on world class because if there's something that I pride ourselves
on, it is finding the story that that isn't being told and putting it
together. Yeah, or at least isn't being told, and is dedicated and
careful a way you know where you're like, you absolutely refuse to just take
like one broad stroke brush to jump jump ahead of the narrative, like,
no, actually, what is everyone who's been involved said, or at least
at the very least, you know, what are the materials that are most
expeditiously on hand telling us about Yeah, and it was, and it just
takes shape as you go. But I think one thing about the journeys TJ
and move on to your next one, is it's more about what your favorite
personal subject is, you know, Like I've heard from people that swear by
Black Saturday, people who swear by the Trial of his Life and some of
the other things, the Mania Journey, the starka memorial tour and going through
Gordon Soldi, and you know, discovering Jim Hurd and discovering Bob Coddle and
all of that crazy Johnny Weaver even in his shifty eyes. You know these
things. So what I what I like about it is like you can try
to rank order our stuff from best to worst, whatever you want to do,
but you have to acknowledge that all all that is is a reflection of
what you personally care the most about, and we're here to do it all
and so your the least favorite is someone else's favorite. I feel confident in
saying that after ten years. Absolutely may I say that my favorite journey isn't
really a journey. It's a Pilgrimage, and that is the one the Pontiac
Silver And I'm very very upset that it wasn't a bigger deal outside of our
little bubble because I thought that was such a unique experience. And probably my
favorite show is The Pilgrimage. And I'm not saying favorite t left show.
I'm saying favorite episode and podcasting history, because that thing came together so organically,
and it really isn't much about pro wrestling. It's about getting something done
in the friendship and bond between two people and got to go finish some business.
I would say, I bet we would have gotten a lot of a
lot of more you know, attention, if we've been able to find the
you know that that form, that that piece of paper that said the WrestleMania
three count. Oh dude, he got we got the legitiated. It would
have been funny though, because you know what happened. It's what happened with
every other revelation we've had. No one will acknowledge it, and then they'll
wait a few months and then they'll start talking about it like it's something everybody
knew about without giving us credit. Of course, WrestleMania three count is that
a boy banded the tank habit? Like what's among the many? He liked?
What if the real count was like fifty thousand, nothing on a piece
of paper that said there were four one hundred people at wrestling in tree.
Don't let your eyes deceive if you don't be a bitch. But yeah,
man, just to go in the dark travails and just be recording and just
not knowing what was around every corner and finding a way to capture that in
sound, and not knowing if there was a beast around this part of this
corner, or I'm vampireing another one. I worried about two things. I
worried about these two things before you actually did it. I worried, for
whatever reason while I was listening, like it had happened and you hadn't told
me. I was very afraid that you were going to a come upon like
a meth lab or b get arrested. And I mean, neither of you
two guys are worthy of getting arrested for trespassing, Like that's just you're not
badass enough for that, either of you. No offense, no, not
at all. Probably why you were worried because you could hear it, and
probably my voice the most, like, well, I'd be in tears,
probably also too. I just can you imagine the police officer that has to
handcuff you and be like, what are you guys doing here? Oh my
god? You want to talk about the shame of acknowledging what we do.
You can't even tell a police officer, even though it would give him reason
to take it easier on you. You still couldn't say you're here to do
something related to pro wrestling. That's how embarrassing it is, even if it
saved your ass. You couldn't you couldn't admit to it. E me like,
you know it's fake, but trespassing's real. You want to know something,
I still have the letter about the Super Bowl tickets that we got from
from home. The thing I have it in my head. It sounds like
that sounds like an Instagram post and recollection of TLFX to me. Right.
This is yeah, I won't say her name, but this is dated January
second, nineteen eighty Pontiac Silver Dome Box Office, Pontiac, Michigan for eight
oh five nine. Dear sirs, I would like some information on Super Bowl
sixteen in nineteen eighty two at the Silver Dome. Could you please tell me
if you have tickets available, what seats are available, the prices, and
who to make the checkout to thank you. See that that is actually a
piece of Pontiac Silver Dome memorabilia, as you will. Yeah that, I
mean that means way more to me than a broken tan or blue seat.
No, totally. It doesn't look as good in the bar, you know
that the basement bar that you had set up in Detroit or whatever. But
yeah, that was the problem with that room is it was so shrouded in
darkness. Yes, yeah, that you couldn't really you couldn't really take the
time to look through the files and know what it was. You had to
step out into the light almost. Well. Also the problem was is that
there was a giant crack in the middle of the room and part of it
had fallen down into the into the stadium. Looking at a ledge, you're
basically looking at a ledge where the floor underneath you could give because they had
they had already done a bit of destruction and in the roof off the place.
Well that was also due to the weather and the and what really caused
the most damage, if I remember correctly, were those were the suspension wires
that held the ceiling up and then when they when the roof was torn open
and it collapsed, and then all of a sudden, everything else just fucking
fell. And you can see the damage that though. I mean, those
are some heavy, heavy, heavy wires and they just remember they like you
can see the lines and some photos of just you know how it just shattered
chairs, shattered chairs, and it tore off that. Yeah, that's right,
that's right. So you saw evidence of something having collapsed already. Yeah,
right right, And so it's kind of like I remember being freaked out,
like holy shit, like this thing could fall. You know, this
thing has not been kept up to code since it shut down. So we
might have a problem for a reason that we would admit to if asked.
Yeah, right, yeah, I mean all you guys wanted to do is
find the luxury boxes. So you did seven different times. Oh my gosh,
I mean luxury boxes. Oh now we're in the luxury boxes. Now
we're actually in a luxury box. Yeah, I guess luxury box doesn't it
doesn't count for much in Detroit, but yeah, I mean that's the thing
like that, you know, put me in a position. I even say
it on that show, on that pod, which is you know, deep
in the archives now, but I thought it's on YouTube too. It's like
including the slam of Andre, which was kind of the whole idea, which
is awful purposely, and even if we didn't want to do badly, it's
still been bad. But you know, if I found myself just going a
little further than I usually would, you know, And that's kind of like
a tailwind that's echoed throughout ten years of the show. Is it's like yeah,
just do it, like go for it, Like if you think it's
gonna be a funny podcast or it's gonna be a worthwhile podcast, even if
it sounds like a slog or sounds like who's gonna care about it? Or
no one's gonna think it's funny, you just fucking do it. This is
the one thing in my life where it's like, you know, don't overthink
the consequences, like do it it. Like meeting SAG's mom and sister bar
all that, it just keeps happening. These things just keep materializing all of
a sudden, people want to, you know, book comedy shows for and
now it's like, what whose drawing board was that on? I'm not even
conceptually, it's just sort of a thing where it's like, yeah, but
you know, TLF has proven to me you just you just let it live
and breathe as an organism. You let it tell you what to do.
You don't try to tell it what to do. That's something that's also kind
of beautiful about it, Like I don't remember where a lot of these ideas
came from, Like who decided to go to Pontiac? Like whose idea was
that? I think it was mine, but I might be Greg Dania and
the idea too, So I don't I don't. I don't remember I heard,
I did hear the nWo was your idea, TJ? It was?
I don't remember. That's that's a great question. I don't remember because I
remember seeing videos of people breaking in, but I don't know if that is
where. I think that that was the origins, but it really was.
I feel like I feel like because I remember going to that, going to
WrestleMania twenty three, right was I think that was my idea. I think
I was like, let's get dirty and let's go to let's go to Detroit,
and so I think going back was your idea. I think that I
think it was because I don't think I got that. I think I don't
think I was that freaked out of a mind because I think I think,
Yeah, you pitched to me the idea of on WrestleMania Weekend, let's go
the other way and they're in New Orleans, right you? Yeah it was
Orlando, by the way. Oh yeah, that's right, that's right.
You sound terrified by the way JP on the video or on the recording,
which he keeps like the on the pilgrimage, like, oh, the whole
episode, Well, at the very beginning, you sound like, I don't
know if we're gonna do this. I don't even know if I want to
mention what we're doing. Yeah, and like maybe that was for some suspense,
but you kept coming on like we just stopped in Chicago, Like why
do you have to do a segment in Chicago to say the same thing you
did at the airport? You don't know what you're doing. You think it's
crazy. You got to finish business mission? Was the CM punk line you
just wanted to get a beef sandwich and work out. I mean, there
was there was definitely a part of that that was like, you know,
because you know, you can talk about it all you want, and then
you get then you're getting on the airplane. Oh yeah, and you're like,
well, wait a minute, I don't even know if we're actually gonna
do this, Like we don't even know if we can actually physically get in
there, Like what are we doing? You know? And so it does
that does really that went through my mind for sure that day, and we
can go It's really hard to look back on that whole thing without the perspective
of knowing that we pulled it off right right right to put yourself back in
the headspace of being like, okay, well, how do we game out
how to explain all this if we don't get into the Silver Dome? Right?
And that was all exactly how you look at the first sort of torn
down or built up structure you see as you turn down that Updyke Road or
whatever in Jack Go's there it is there in the wrong building home what we're
talking about. Do you remember the woman I think we said this on the
show. The woman at the front desk of the hotel we were staying at,
was like, what are you guys doing here? Oh boy? Somehow
came up that we were from out of town. We said, we're making
a documentary about the Silver Dome. I said, that was a good one.
You just looked at her straight, you know, just with that that
dead look and be like, we're going to the Silver Dome, you guys
know. I should have said to her, we're looking for a piece of
paper that delineates the paid versus the in house attendance from March of nineteen eighty
seven, and if we don't find that, then all will have been for
non Then We're going to blow up ourselves right here in this lobby for Silver
Dome. We wouldn't have been on her Mary Way at that point. Fucking
whatever it was, Auburt Hill's beauty would have been all over our ass.
Yeah, what's what else you got? I mean you kind of mentioned maybe
not given the credit that you guys have deserved, especially with like the most
recent Virgil thing, which is very strange, seemed like five random people run
that story but not actually run the story. Is there any thing that you
guys are like most proud of, like something you feel and maybe you already
alluded to it with the lamentable tragedy, but it's like, is there anything
that you actually both had a hand in. Maybe it's even cinemat related,
where you're like, the space is better for having this piece of content,
like truly like uncovering information. I don't know if you can think about a
cinemat peace, boss, but I mean for us, it's for me,
it's all of the transcripts of the George of Horian, the Vincent mantrial,
all the court filings from Bash at the Beach two thousand that everyone talked about
but no one had actually pulled and all the court filings that everyone talked about
but no one actually pulled from Black Saturday for me, for you know,
I'll the the proudest thing and it was totally unexpected. Is well number one
in terms of there's there's a self indulgent one, I'll do that one first,
being quick enough during a live call to say that Muhammad Assan was more
salami than salam. All right, like that to me, Like, I
was, like, that has to be the hardest I've ever laughed on any
show we've done. I'm serious that that really I was, you know,
in terms of a of a like being on it, being sharp with it.
That was. That's it. But oh my god, he just done
the nine to eleven SmackDown, right, was all there. And but then
the other thing is the the people that we have helped that without intending to
help. And you know that when we got that first email from from I'm
sorry, I don't remember your name off the top of my head, but
it was the guy who got in the car accident. And yeah, he
he made it a point that he would only listen to the laps fan during
physical therapy, and that made him want to go to physical therapy, and
then he ended up a year later walking into WrestleMania thirty one as we were
concluding the journey, that to me was like when that happened, it was
overwhelming for me because I I would have never never thought that I could have
had that kind of impact on somebody that I'd never met, let alone anybody
that I did know. You know, that's one thing about going this long
is you do become you do become a shoulder to lean on for people.
You know, when you have shows that are this long, like you've become
something that helps them bridge painful moments in life. And you know, but
we're glad to podcast. That's what no more, no less, that's what
we're doing, and you can put it to whatever use you want. A
point where some people don't even talk to me anymore, they just listen to
the show. He does doesn't call me, but he does you know everything,
You know everything about me because he freaking listens to the show all the
time. That's an important point. We wouldn't talk as much as we do
for the show, you know, because I'm just remembering what it was like.
You know, you live a lot closer than you did in la.
But that's how we got those beats of like two hour conversations because so much
time had passed between phone calls that we had that much to talk about,
especially in the wrestling. Yeah, it be like about them. Usually I'd
say, like a month, it'd be like a monthly call we'd do and
we'd unless I was in one of those phases where I was calling the Ledger's
office like every fucking back. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes you'd
kind of call me at work. Yeah, that was always funny. Now
we get some time, uh, Harvey Fiederberg, we call a non existent
person. But you know, when you bring up that story of the guy
with the you know, the rehab, it does remind me of something TJ
that I heard early on when we were doing this. We first started reading
emails on the show because we were getting these emails that were like, oh
my god, Like we didn't have a feedback idea at first, you know,
let alone a mail bag show, because it was like, you know,
yeah, we'd get some letters here and there, and it was great
and people would clarify things we were talking about and offer up personal perspectives.
We did the call out for sound on the WrestleMania Journey, which I think
added a lot and helped us understand the texture and the reality of the people
out there who were listening to us, and what they were about and what
it was we were doing that they liked. That was huge feedback for us.
We did it just to have like, you know, some extra seasoning
for the WrestleMania episodes, but what it served to do is hear our listeners
in their voice and be like, okay, like, of all the things
we talked about, that's the thing they bring up when asked to sort of
quickly summarize why they love the show. And that's really powerful feedback in terms
of giving you the confidence to lean more into those aspects when you record future
shows. But all that said, I do remember, around the time of
that email, somebody on a forum, maybe it was read it or something,
there was a game being played where people were setting us fake emails.
Do you remember this. We still get guests every now and then, We
still get caught with people who I guess get their jolly's out of having us
read a letter that they made up. Right, And I always wonder,
you know, how pro wrestling is it right? How pro wrestling is it
to wonder if some of them were heart wrenching, gripping emails we've read in
the show over the years were worse. And I'm so happy living in that
world because that's that's what it is to be a wrestling for you. Because
here's the thing. Because at the same time, if any of those,
if any of those heart wrenching ones you know, or all of them,
if all of them were fake, I say this, you know what,
I then at least we inspire someone's creativity. That's right, go for it.
What I say to whoever may have done that in the past and whoever
may do it in the future, is you are very welcome, sir.
Yes exactly. It will have been a sir. I'll guarantee you that we're
getting close to the end here. But I will say TLF is and always
will be both pain and shame, and it's caused me both of those things.
Sometimes in my personal life. People probably don't know, but during the
run of TLF, I produce podcasts for both Eric and Laurie Bischoff produced podcasts
for Brett Hart, and there were times I would hear things on TLF where
I'm just like God, I hope they don't hear this. Please don't,
please don't. Just I don't need anybody to send a clip to these people.
That's a big part of why you would have felt like we only would
have lasted ten episodes, because you were involved in so many trying to chart
your future course in the space. It just came and went like nothing.
Yeah, and then during COVID, the UFC hires me, and then they
merge with the freaking WWE. So I'm still on kids the needle. Look
at that, Look at that, look at that. I think. I
think the most shame yes I've ever had is very early on. I didn't
even know what this reference meant. But uh, living here in southern California,
my wife heard a bump in the night, if you will, and
told me I needed to go get up and look into it. And under
my breath, I said, mister Fuji will investigate. Those are the moments
that make it all worth it. Someone would ask me, yeah, there's
anybody out there, says brother. When someone says something that kind of I
cannot get enough hearing, Like all those conversations at work and stuff where someone
says something that's that's lapsed character related. I'm a fan of right like synergy.
Oh yeah, someone say synergy at work and they think of us like
so great, yes we do, employees, and or just like energy,
can it comes out of cant. I I'm not aware of the can which
you speak, but there are things that do come in cans, and I
have been known to be fascinated with cans. In the spirit of disclosing things
we haven't before, you mentioned producing Eric's podcast for a while there, TJ.
I remember having a conversation one time with Eric who was looking for ideas
about how to do a podcast, and and I remember Nick Housman what wasn't
too far away from the conversation, and I remember kind of giving him an
idea for a podcast that's not unlike the one he went on to do,
so oh the podcast that they thought was a terrible idea and known would be
interested in the tip of the hat. Yeah wow, file under file under
U. I don't do it for credit. I do it for the love.
I do it for money and probably still be making some money if you
want to follow that advice. So oh boy. Yeah, he was so
like skeptical of podcasts. He wanted to make it like an audio like like
a like a play, like to own a platform as opposed to just do
a show. You know. And you remember in the early days TJ,
because we talked about this a lot, because you were trying to figure out
how to trains, how to transfer out of out of the Shirt Dog radio
world. It was like this Patreon thing was like it was a barrier at
first. People did not respect the power of Patreon in the beginning. They
didn't get it. They didn't know that they could make real money there.
I heard about it on episode of This American Life as as the Digital tip
Jar, and I think that might have been the first time I ever brought
it up to No This American Life. Yeah, they had they had a
show on there that it was like some segment the host of the show had
a Patreon and I was like, well, we should do that for TLF.
Lord knows, we're not making money off Reveel Zone anymore. God.
And what's funny is I remember like when we actually started making money, JP
told me that he bought wallpaper for his wife in that like Justified like Late
Nights, and I was like, holy crap, Like we bought Walt Yep,
this is great I remember that that was like a big that was a
big deal. Like she like, I remember she was like, oh,
I wait, we have this money. I can buy my wallpaper and like,
yeah, there you go. See see, huh what you know about
it? What you know about it besides absolutely nothing? And then I remember
when that number hit ten thousand a month. Yeah, And then we started
piling in with the WrestleMania sort of like adjacent We did live calls and Mania
season bump yep. Yeah, and then cinemat and I'll think that cinemat reaccelerated
during COVID. Yeah. And I implore everyone that gives money, I don't
deserve the third that I take, so you should give thirty three percent more.
So it off that thee Yeah, think of it that way, please,
right. But I do want to thank you guys personally because without TLF,
like I wouldn't be where I'm at in the MMA space. Like when
the shirt dog h you know, backbone of my financial stability fell, I
didn't know what the hell to do. And TLF is the only reason I
was able to stay in the mm A space. And uh, man,
I don't know what I'd be. I'd probably be uh sounding like whul Cogan
uh driving an uber If I don't have this shout out uber tude shut out
all the things we've done on YouTube. Yeah, like that's the thing too.
You haven't even talked about elapsed Christmas Carol? What what did that?
The home aloness? Like I just I by the way, I hate those
things so much. They got they take so much time and I love them,
But those are those are wonderful examples of what like the three headed beasts
can do. All right, that's like the most that's probably the most collaborative
stuff we've done, because you know, we set down the creative and then
you put the sound effects seasoning on it. So if anyone wants to know
kind of what the triumvirate can produce when all engines are humming, you want
to listen to those Christmas peoples. I never would have watched. It's a
wonderful life about you guys. So and now I love it that I had
a lot of exactly. Yeah, all right, hey James, thanks for
the journeys, thanks for like everything, and thanks for Cinemania. Thank you