Independence Day with Lindsay Ellis

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Speaker 1: Hello us, it's us. You're about a year. An episode on Independence Day with Lindsay ellis the one, the only. But first a few plugs. Yes, we have a few shows coming up and multiple countries, multiple continents. First, we have our last l a show for a while at the Ruby on July thirteenth, recovering Anastasia for my birthday. I'll be cosplaying as Respude and of course um that's on July thirteenth. Go to backtal coast dot com click on live for tickets there. I'm also doing my show one more time on July twenty at the Lyric Hyperion Boss Home Is Girl, if you want to check that out before we leave the country to go to dot dot dot London and Edinburgh. So yeah, you're doing your show bossum Is Girl July July at the Bill Murray. Tickets are already running loads in London. That's in London. It's the show I'm taking to Edinburgh Fringe Fest called Boss Home Is Girl. It is say skewering satire of corporate feminism in the vein of Cheryl Samburg, Elizabeth Homes, etcetera. It is very fun. I've seen it many times and I'm going to see it more when we are both in Edinburgh. Yeah. I'll then be doing the show every single night at Edinburgh Fringe Festival at the Pleasants Baby Grand from July thirty one to August. Tickets for that are also on the Becktel Cast website or on my website. I will be selling tickets at any cost. And then after that run ends, we will be going to London for to an evening of two live Becktel casts that I'm really excited. It's our first, it's our first international performance. Sorry, Canada, so we'll come. We'll be there soon, Canada, don't you worry. But first we'll be in London on September one, two back to back shows. That evening. We are covering Pixars Brave and The Favorite, so hopefully that's appropriate. Enjoy it. We know that Brave does not take place in London, but we've already done Paddington's so with that and we're pretty sure that's the only Listen. We're not covering the King speech. You don't want to hear it, we don't want to do it, so we'll be at the Albany. Uh. Tickets are officially on sale. They can be found at bechtelcast dot com in the live tab and we hope to see you there. And then, don't forget I'm doing a couple of stand up shows in Edinburgh as well in late August. I'm doing some in London and I'm doing some in Dublin as well, so if you live in those parts please check me out. All my stuff will be on my website, Caitlin Dronte dot com. Love it so. Without much further ado, Happy Independence Day episode Yes. On the dog Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them? Are all their discussion just boyfriends and husbands? Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zeth in best start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Good morning. In less than an hour and a half, we will have finished talking about the movie Independence Day, uh and many from around the world will have listened to it, and we can't be consumed by our petty differences anymore. We killing you're such an inspiring leader, really, this is why you keep getting reelected. We will be fighting for our freedom from the patriarchy. Should we win, today will no longer be considered an American holiday, but a day that we were declared in one voice. I'm like in the crowd, high on math, ready to tear my shirt off at any moment. So you're a Randy Quaid. We will not go quietly into the night. We will not vanish without a fight. We're going to live on, We're going to survive. Is really today we celebrate the Bechtel Cast. Welcome to it. Oh gosh, I did so many twists and turns. I really nominate this one for for something anything. Thank you. You told me I could do the intro, and that's I thought would be the best choice. I was just going to be like, I got dental surgery. My mouth hurts, mind us too. I know, it's kind of I feel like that's our version of a glow up, is that we are getting our serious dental problems taken care of. Uh, you know, three years of work and we're finally able to see a dentist. Mine, to be fair, mine is a group on dentists. But she was very nice and she did all the procedures at once, and I feel like my skull is on fire. Oh my goodness, I'm just are you no, it's good anyway, healthy good. I'm Caitlin Darante I'm Jamie Lofton, and we talk about movies with our perfect teeth, with our with our now perfect teeth. So this episode will be flawless. Yes, it's not like Bruckheimer flawless. We don't have vineers gigantic veneers protruding three inches out of our head. We examine movies through the lens of how they treat and represent women. We use the Bectel tests as a jumping off point, and that, of course, is the metric invented by cartoonists Alison Bechdel. That is a test applied to media for our purposes. It means that there has to be a scene in a movie that has two female identifying characters with names to talk about something other than a man for two lines of dialog. Doesn't sound hard, but et cetera. Yeah, I'm assuming this isn't your first episode. If it is, you know, you can find that in a different episode. Yes, so today we're talking about Independence Day. Yeah, and today, the day this episode comes out is also Independence Day. Yeah, amazing, Yes, we're recording it, perhaps not on Independence Day. Salivating Independence Day is like weird now, Yeah. Yeah, there's like some people that I don't I don't even remember what I did. I think I was with you last year. But there are some people who were like being real irony bros about it and like, well, I hate that worse than celebrating it. Sincerely, I don't know what a strange time to be alive. It certainly is. And hey, let's introduce our guests. She's a video essayist, she's an author, and you remember her from our Phantom of the Opera episode. Passions were flared. Goodness, it's Lindsay Ellis say thank you for having me to talk about the best movie and the history A cinematic masterpiece might be the best piece of art. I mean, yes, it is. It's a feminist texts, it's a piece of art. It's a scholarly text. Yeah, so we are talking about Independence Day, Lindsay, what is your history relationship with this movie? That's a good question. I feel like it's very like baked into the fabric of my d NA, Like it just like fused with me the moment it came out, and we've been one ever since. Like when you mentioned the author part, like when my book comes out next year, you're gonna be like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, that tracks. I just it was kind of one of those movies of the nineties where like because for the most part, I I don't really experience nostalgia. I'm actually a deeply cynical person. But I think like Independence Day is just like where every piece of nostalgia of my brain is funneled because it's such a deeply stupid movie. But I also argue, I feel like Independence Day raises a very interesting philosophic question, which is, can a stupid movie be good? I think we're going to talk about that today. Certainly. Yeah, I think yes, Jamie. What's your history. I don't have a ton of history with this movie. I do remember that, for some reason, it was the our first DVDs in my home were this and Holes. This was, for a very long time, the only two DVDs I had. I loved Holes and my parents loved Independence Day. And that was simply the way it was. And those were the two DVDs. So I have seen I had seen this movie. I hadn't seen it in like years, but in my head, I'm like, oh, that's what my mom and dad would watch right after I finished watching Holes. So like, it's our turn with the DVD player, Jamie. Yes, just a really a lot of draconian battles over the DVD player. Um. So yeah, this is for me mostly the movie that would come on after Holes Got It. What About You? This came out when I was ten, and I believe I saw it in a drive in movie theater at age ten and then I did not watch it again after that. Ever, did you like it? Do you remember? Like I remember liking it? But then Men in Black came out the next year and I was like, I like this Will Smith alien movie way better than Independence Day. So Men in Black was my ship. I think Men in Black was my Will Smith entry point. That was probably the first time I've ever like seen him. Independence Day was definitely my my Will Smith gateway drug. But Men in Black Will Smith was like my Will Smith heroin Like that was the one I really developed a problem for. There was a sort of that one to punch. Which is funny because like Will Smith will talk about how he didn't want to be known as the alien guy. But like arguably his two most influential movies are different takes, like very different takes on you know, conspiracy theory Americana and It's funny because neither of neither of these films can decide if the Deep State is bad or not. They're like, I guess the will the Deep States there, it's do what it's best too vague. Yeah, they're trying slap some cute faces on the deep stays feel about the Spiner, Yeah, he's really excited about the lights. Brent Spiner, who I was like, oh my god, it's the villain from the Master of Disguise. Yes, well, that is a deep cut data on Star Trek, which is how I think most people did not know that beloved Broadway actor Brent Spiner character actor. I did see Independence Day, is it Resurgence or whatever? They saw that. There's different love for that one because it's so ambitious and like just so out of time, because like you know, like because I did a video about this, which I'm sure we're going to kind of at least touch on, which is how like Independence Days a movie that could only exist in the nineties, and then when you have the sequel that just does not make any sense in like a post nine eleven Alex Jones world, and and so the movie they made was just like, well, I guess we're going to invade them, right, didn't For the new one, it's basically everyone is back except for Will Smith. Like most people except really recast the President's daughter, which is kind of bewildering because Whitman, Whitman is an actual star. They recast her with a hot nobody her, Yeah, her, and then recast her. Okay, I'll just jump into the recap and then we'll go from there. Yeah, let's roll. There's This movie is also famously two and a half hours long. It is. It is so long, right, there's nothing compared to the norm today. That's true. I mean, but for a first movie, I don't know. It's like a short Marvel movie. Very long, that's true. Yeah, So it's July two one, Yes, Act one? Did they tell you exactly where the act breaks are in this movie? It's kind of a masterclass in that way. I should teach a class on this movie. Should screenwriting with Roland? So an extraterrestrial radio signal comes in and everyone's freaking out. Jeff Goldbloom is there. He's a science guy. It's still again. I'm totally sure what his specific job is. Well, he's a science guy. He's a cable repair he's a cable repairment, as his dad jokes, and that's yeah, I think that's not quite accurate. I think he's a technician at a cable company, got it, only to become a hacker later on. Yeah, well only makes sense. He knows that he knows the fiber, that's true. He's got a Mac used the same os. I love the vague techno jargon used to this movie. He's like, I put I put a virus into the aliens and they're screwed. And everyone's like, oh my god. Another thing that only works in nineties six. Like, people see the movie Hackers and they're like, sure, Hackers. My favorite part of Hackers is that a lot of the cast is wearing crew next wed shirts that say VCR Like it's just like, I just love the green ones and zeros that like oh yeah, they're like they like coding, use their consciousness with the computer because that's how hacking. Yeah. Absolutely, okay. So um, Randy Quaid is drunk, He's dusting crops. It's Tuesday, then playing the type. Then we meet the President of the United States played by Bill Pullman. It's President Thomas Whitmore, and no one's taking him seriously. Because they think he's too young and that he's a whimp. Oh my gosh, I love that his central issues like I'm too hot, No one i'll take me serious. There's a lore behind that, Like apparently in earlier scripts it was like there was there was like a whole thing about how he tried to introduce universal healthcare, because it was like they're very obviously. Yeah, yeah, they're very obviously. Like if you go into the Independence Day wiki, which I never have, like there's like a whole backstory about how like he tried to introduce universal health carried it failed, and then the Republicans regained control of Congress and that's why his approval ratings have crashed. Well, I mean that would be less dumb than I'm too hot and I'm just too cares about. They couldn't fit that backstory in, so they're just like he's just too it's not even in the director's cut, too many alien punches to fit in. There's only so much time exactly, So he's too hot to be president. So he's too hot. And then his press secretary Connie is relaying a lot of this information to him. She's just like, no one thinks you're cool. Then uh, it turns out the signal that's coming in is from this enormous alien mothership that's approaching Earth. And then several huge space crafts break off from the mother ship and then like head towards Moscow, New York City, d C, some other major cities around the world. I mean just like hover over those cities for a while. They're just hanging out. The presidents like, I don't care, I'm staying in d C. Okay, They're ominously hovering over like all these major cities. It's probably fine. And then canonically this movie is taking place in right, so it is also a few months before the election, right right, Oh yeah, there's an election coming up. So if you're hot president and people are already like he's too hot, I was like, oh, they would say, pretty boy ran away from conflict. Hot man, must be strong for re election, Connie, I gotta stand my ground. I gotta be sexy and here. So then we finally meet will Smith, the genie himself. We finally his character, which is Steve Hiller. Twenty minutes into the movie. They really make you wait. They make you wait. He is military. He has to report to his base to deal with these alien spaceships. He thinks there's no danger, but his girlfriend Jasmine is like, I don't feel good about this. There is a thing about seeing Vivica a fox in a one floor house that made me want it to be the beginning of kill Bill. Yeah right, She's had better scenes in one flour house indeed. So back in New York, Jeff go bloom. He figures out that the signal that they received was actually a countdown that all the spaceships are using, and then when they get to zero, they're going to attack. So he and his dad played by planets with satellite satellite system already installed and love an arbitrary countdown in it's like stealing it out. It's like when you steal your neighbor's WiFi. That's just what these aliens are exactly the satellite. That's why they went for the inhabited planet. It's like their version of like, it's only three days until the talent show. So then Jeff Goldblum's character's name is David and his dad played by Jed Hirsch. They drive to d C to tell the President, but before like really anything can be done about this countdown news, the aliens start blowing ship up, including the iconic White House explosion scene. Um so, then the President and his staff they get to safety, and then Jasmine and her son Dylan get to safety, but a bunch of other people die. Now we're in July three a k a. Act two. Will Smith and his marine buds going for a counter attack against the aliens, but the alien ship has his force field and they're fighting back on their own little like fighter ships. And Will Smith is the only survivor of the Marines in this counter attack, so he goes over right, he goes over to an alien ship that he took down and then punches an alien in the face and then he starts dragging this alien back to his base. Meanwhile, in the l A area, Jasmine finds the First Lady in some rubble Hillary Clinton herself in a pile of dirt and red headed Hillary that actor plays the president in Battlestar Galactica. So she goes from first Lady to the President. Thing that didn't happen, And that did not happen. That's unrealistic. I mean, at least Hillary Clinton doesn't die of internal bleeding, so there's that. Yeah, she still got time aliens might arrive tomorrow, might be in a helicop. So then Randy Quaid, who is again in this movie, and also it's so important. He becomes more important as the which is wild. But he is with his kids somewhere outside of l A. They're in a desert. He keeps talking about how aliens had abducted him ten years ago. This is really very Randy Quaid like. And Randy Quaid may not have even known it. Yeah, I don't. I don't think Randy Quaid knew this was fiction. I think he started was making a documentary and he was just testifying personal experience. Every line of this is improvided. There was a lot more like I think the director's cut in the script. There was a lot more rape jokes, like, oh did the aliens rape you? Rust boy? You sure did get raped by those aliens. There's already so much of that quite a bit. Yeah, there's these guys who were bullying him, like sexual stuff to you, and it's an odd, odd place to go. So Randy Quaid picks up Will Smith and the alien that he's dragging around and who he had punched in the face. He picks him up in the desert and then the President and his friends are taken to Area fifty one because there's an alien research facility there and that's also where Will Smith and Randy Quaid go. And then the scientists at Area one start to dissect Will Smith's alien. But it's still alive and an alien less vaginal than your average movie aliens. True, but it's pretty bad it does they they like slice it open and then it like falls open into these like yeah, it gives a big flap. Yeah, there's a scalpul in. I feel like it's somewhereculum in the middle of like from not vaginal at all to like which one is like like Stranger Things Season one, like erupting pussy monster and then which I'm going to confuse the alien or aliens one of them has or maybe both have. Yeah, so yeah, so this semi vagina alien, it's still alive and really are the ranking page for like vaginal inspired alien design. There's a video yeah really like goopy too, and they like and then you're like this has gone too far, like you have not seen I think it's the second Pirates of the Caribbean movie. But the Kraken shows up and is like a vagina monster to end all vagina. It just makes me wonder about like alien metabolism that they are always covered in goo, Like even like the Independence Day aliens, they are always kind of have that like low level sheen going on, and it's just like maybe they're just sweating. Maybe they're fair sweats there are in the desert like Glossier models, Like they just look kind of wet, just always kind of wet because it's never it's not quite scaly, it's moist. There's a moisture going on, a towel off definitely. So this alien uses its telepathic abilities to communicate through this guy, doctor Oaken, which is Brent Spiner's character, and the President's like, hey, why don't we just like try to co exist peacefully? And the aliens like no, I want you to die your favorite sceneries, Like can we find a way to coexist? And then the alien just goes no, and then they're kind of like well as Worth asking was like hey, hey I tried, and then he doesn't even go why, He's just like Okay, he said no, Okay, some real lemus one on one President hottie. So yeah, then Jeff Goldblum is like, no, we can't use nuclear weapons against them, that this is a horrible idea, and he's right. They try, it doesn't work because the shields are still up on the alien spaceship. So then Will Smith borrows a helicopter and somehow knows exactly where to go to find But why would he think they agreed to meet there, because like whenever he leaves, he's like, come to me at the base after you go stripping right, And she's like, okay, So that's where she's trying to get the whole movies, trying to get to the base, and then when she gets there, it's been destroyed by the alien pod. So they meet up and they're like, oh my god, and then a great kiss. There's a kiss and then glit. The president is reunited with his wife, but she's bleeding eternally and then she dies. It is now July, fourth, act three. Baby, everyone's at their lowest point. It looks hopeless. Yes, those alien shields are down because impenetrably, guys, what are we gonna do? We arbitrarily killed one of the women exactly. The music swelled. It was very emotional, it was. And then Jeff Goldblum, he's throwing a fit, and his dad's like, hey, get off off this freezing floor before you catch a cold, and Jeff Goblin's like, that's it. We have to give the alien ship a computer virus and then like zeros and once begin to rain into the screen like a screen. Will I mean, like, my favorite part of this scene is he is drunk, like he is lit when he comes up with the computer virus idea. And I like to like my head cannon of this scene because like the whole thing like happens over the course of four hours, so you don't sober up after four hours. So like he comes up with this idea while he's wasted. He pitches it while he's still drunk. He's still drunk when he gets in the craft with Will Smith, and it's only that whenever he goes, oh, I was I thinking that he has sobered up, my head canon, and he's like about to throw up, and it's like, sure, he gets like airsickness, but it's also because he's like he's been drinking the whole movie. So then they figure out that they have just they're going to fly this small alien ship that they have into space to the mother ship and infect it with the virus, which will cause all the shields to like retract, and then Will Smith is like, I'll do it. They organize the attack, They gather up all the pilots they can, including Randy Quaid by just asking like, Hey, does anyone here know how to fly? And he's like and then he's just like but but the best part of that scene is the contrivance for why they have enough planes but not enough pilots, because there's like a newscast where they're like, yeah, a bunch of military people are hiding in the mountains because they're scared. I missed that. Yeah, that's that's that's the real Like, that's the the exploitation is just like, our brave troops are actually quite cowardly when which comes to shelve anythos. We'll deal with them later. Honestly, the most of the third act, like the logic behind every decision was very cryptic to me. That's why I'm here, Yeah, because like it's one of those really pedantic movies where every time you're like, but why did thing, it's like, ah, there was a throwaway line. There was away line because I was like, because as I was watching it and and you know, I mean it's like you barely have to Like I'm glad that you're able to follow if you're really paying attention, but you barely have to be able to follow. You're just like it's gonna happen. So someone's going to fly into the spaceship and then someone's gonna kiss and then it's over. Two things that need to happen in this movie, and Alien Corpse parts will fall from the sky and the music will swell, and and Bill Pullman's on the ground like seemingly forgetting that his wife died less than pretty good. He's got so many people die and then the people who should react to that do not react to that. Yeah, like the like the next day, the first scene of Act to July three is like Will Smith and friends like getting cigars and like ready, whoop beat's ass. And it's like Jasmine is presumed dead. Ye has is pretty much the entire population of l A County. I assume you have family, sir, right, yeah, yeah, no one cares. And then when Randy Quaid dies, his son is just like I'm so proud of him. It's like are you crying? Like why not? I mean that was a complicated relationship between father. Yeah, because like most of the director's cut is like extension of the Randy Quaid plot, and it's like convoluted in because like he like that the son is actually his stepson because Randy Quaid married his mother, so the brother is actually a half brother. But I think the oldest is just like the only stepson. Mother died at some point. I'm pretty sure she's Namive American, and so that's like a whole thing, strange amount of details. And so they and then like the middle child is has like a medical condition and they spend like a long time trying to find meds for this kid. Yeah, so agonizingly long. A lot of that state. I mean, like the sick kid is still there and you're just a puke. He does puke. He's definitely sick. I'm like, I don't, are we who is he? Like whenever those kids, I know that they're like Randy Quaid's. It's just weird how much this movie is just like people love Randy Quaid and and they're going to root for him no matter what groups say more Quaid, and yet there's no time to develop any of the female characters. Wild you don't want to die a virgin. I can't wait to talk about that. So then Bill Pullman gives his famous speech. Will Smith and Jeff Goblin fly off into space. They go, They upload the virus to the mothership their friends now they're their best friends. The pilots fire at Will at the spacecrafts on Earth. Randy Quaid sacrifices himself to save everyone, and then the boys come back from space and they get the lady folks run into their arms and they beat beat yes, and then that is the movie. We've got to take a quick break. They'll come right back and we're back. Oh man, Okay, where to begin. Well, so, lindsay, you did a video essay on Independence Day versus War of the Worlds, and we're kind of just interested on your take on how the this movie Independence Day can kind of only exist in the time frame that it came out in and just give us a recap, so to speak, of your video if if you wouldn't mind, Well, it's it's interesting because to jump onto another nineties classic, The Matrix. I remember when that movie came out, and part of the whole premise of the Matrix is that, like was the peak of human civilization before I started declining. And I remember at the time thinking that's ridiculous, and in hindsight, I'm like, oh, I think there might have been something to that, because the nineties was a weird, kind of uniquely stable time in world history. And I feel like when I put that out, people are like, oh, but this thing, but this other thing is like well in the in the Grand Scheme, you know, like it was between the Berlin Wall goes down and and so a result is that the media is um kind of bored and really drawn to disaster. And so Independence Day kind of fits in like sort of aven diagram of like fascination with aliens that was very rather specifically like aliens and like American conspiracy theory, like the three biggest examples of that being The X Files, Independence Day, and Men Black, And it also kind of falls under disaster movies, which neither X Files are in black cars, so it's like too the biggest like genres dated genres of the nineties, and both of those things died when nine eleven happened because suddenly conspiracy theories weren't so cute and fun anymore, and also nobody wanted to watch disaster movies. It's kind of interesting now and how it's like swung way the other way, like all the disasters you see on movies, and I guess now on television Game of Thrones are like they love Boy, they love they love their nine leveny imagery. Um, so I think it just it takes an approach. Audiences were, of course totally down with at the time because it didn't really take this idea of international disaster seriously. It's such a fun movie, like you said, everyone kind of reacts to this horrible disaster with like ready to kick the tires and light the fires. Big Daddy. Harry Connick Jr. Drives me fucking crazy and stuff doesn't crazy with love, crazy with desires. I was supposed to be Matthew Perry original I didn't know this cast, and then I don't know. He's like I gotta go the worst character and friend instead of the worst character. In Independent Ferry is almost always the worst part, and I like him, but he's the worst part of seventeen again, the worst part of a lot of stuff, and that's why we love him. It's the worst part of the movies that star him. The whole nine yards he was on that show that was called go On, but it was stylized so it looked like the name of the show was a goon that I got canceled after three episodes. That's one of my favorite Matthew Perry failures. Sure. Sure, that's a whole other podcast. So I think so there's a super producer. Sophie is cracking up on this episode. She likes Matthew Perry, Shade Perry's pitfalls go On. So when we when we do a sociological study of um uh yeah. So there's an interesting sort of trend going on right now that is is kind of in its twilight. But this is this is true like any twenty year cycle, because you know, it's like you'll have twenty year cycles that appeal to cirtain certain age groups and thirty year cycles that appeal to others. So that's why there's like an interesting sort of like parallel right now with nineties nostalgia and remix and eighties nostalgia and aesthetic. Like I think the two biggest phraightes nostalgia right now, or it's the franchise and Stranger Things, um, but with nineties nostalgia, it'll be like remakes or reboots of nineties things. And boy does the ones like Men in Black Internationals coming out like or came out already. That was a movie that happened. It sure didn't see it. Uh. And Independence Day Resurgent came out in two thousand six or SI and Uh, the X Files reboot was also a thing that happened. But I wish we could talk about Ben in Black International and how it did if we had the time. It's interesting that, like, you know, Independence Day Resurgence, it was too different from the old one because it couldn't piggyback off of the you know, conspiracy theory Americana that it was written around. And X Files didn't know what to do with the way conspiracy theories are now part of the culture and how you know, in both movies are extremely um naive. I would honestly say borderline I responsible, especially the X Files because Roland Demrick has this really interesting preoccupation with conspiracy theory because I genuinely think he doesn't believe it, but I don't think he understands that a lot of people do. So so yeah, it's it's it's interesting. It's sort of like as a as a as a study, like an anthropological case study of a time in history that you know, it's just we can't ever go back. Yeah, I mean a lot of the movies we cover on the podcast we you know, talk about how they are very much a product of the time that they come out in, because you know, they will be just ripe with homophobious, sexism, all all manner of problematic things that you know, we in are like, oh my god, how was that ever okay? And not that it ever was, but you know, culturally we were in a different space ten years ago, twenty years ago, on and on. But yes, this is this movie is kind of a product of its time in a different way than we normally discuss. But there are still somethings. There's plenty to talk. I mean, it is like it's weird, Like it was like genuinely jarring. As much as I enjoyed this movie, but it's like a little bit jarring in some way to see a disaster movie with such like an optimistic tilt, like you don't really ever like there are moments, but you don't really ever see anyone on earth consider that they will lose like well, I mean, that's such part of this just this American ness, because it's an American story filtered through the lens of a German who was raised very wealthy, so he he is the essence of privilege. Which is interesting because like Roland Imerick was at the time pretty much the only out gay director, like Brian Singer wasn't out yet, and plus he wasn't really famous yet because you know, usual Suspects had just come out. Double check that, um. But it's it's like going through that filter is very interesting because I don't I don't, I don't know if an American would be shameless enough to make a movie like this, but Americans really reacted to it positively in a way that like Roland was never able to Land was never able to recapture that level of success even though he's basically been grandfathered into you can make whatever movie you want until now I think he's finally lost that. But it is like the perfect moment of just like USA U s A. There's so many moments here that I feel like you could show that same clip and put it in a movie from and it would be like a jokey thing or a sinister thing to see someone like like a group of mostly white dudes going like USA, U s A. That's scary to people now there, like this is like the peak of them, or it would be a very different for a different crowd. Like I could see a really conservative tilting movie do that. But I think like this movie because like you know, Roland is liberal Hollywood liberal. But like I think that this movie is made for made for democrats. Let's put it that way. It's a movie for democrats. I got the Clinton's in office basically, they just they only they don't like him because he's too he's too hot to cool. He all but like cool. He puts a saxophone too much, he all but pulled out too many times. It was I mean, but this movie was seventy five million budget, eight hundred seventeen million box office because it's great. It was very success. It was the number I think it was the number one movie of the year. It was one or two. Surprised me. Also, just a stray observation about disaster movies. Before nine eleven their orange. After nine eleven, they're blue. Yeah, they're very gray. Yeah, because again like with with Game of Thrones as an example, where we got eleven that color palette never let up until the threat was stabbed. But yeah, it's just it's just like I think there's something about just like the suppressive palette, like the sort of blue gray that before nine eleven was mostly associated with, like you know, holocaust movies, and even after eleven, like there there was something just like this very like Russian work camp, prisoner of war, like we saw that in the like The Pianist had a very blue color palette, even the beginning of X Men, first X Men movie. But it's just like it's the blue plus the haze, you know, is like there's so many examples like Avengers, One Man of Steel, a lot of Game of Thrones Endgame kind of did it game was kind of purple. Yeah, like a purple haze. Sanos was there and he was very purple. He just hit her baby. Okay, So let's talk about the women in the movie. Schallouive so many his wives, so this is a huge wife that's a speaking of product of its time. Like think that's another thing that people just didn't really bat an eye at, which is there's no women in leadership positions. There's like none of them contribute anything valuable to the plot. None of them come up with any idea. I guess the closest is Vividate a fox taking the initiative to drive a truck people anyway, Um, and you know, that's just something that you would never see in like I think even in two thousand five with Four of the World, it felt a little off that there that the girl child was just so helpless and never like grew or learned anything. Like even even then it felt a little like I was suppresed. There weren't even like any like Mary Sue moments in this movie. I'm like, oh, someone's going to be able to like do because you are presented with two female characters that have the illusion of power. You've got the first lady who is like this Hillary Clinton cipher. So it's like, okay, maybe she might be doing something. No, uh, then we have what's her name? The character's name is Connie, the Press secretary, the Press secretary, and it seems like, oh, she's in a position of power. Perhaps she will impact the plot at some point. But then the twist is she's Jefical Bloom's wife. Yes, yes, exactly, because there, yeah, she wanted to be a career girl and he was like, but I love And then in the end she realizes actually she think he was right now too, She's like, yeah, I definitely want to talk about that conversation enough. But yeah, so we meet. We meet three main female characters in this story, and they are all introduced in the context of them being the romantic partner of one of the important male characters. Um, we don't know that Connie is romantic partner until about a half hour in, right, because then we can all breathe a sigh of really, she's not a single woman over thirty. Thank god, we were so worried. Yes, So they all end up being just there to basically further characterize the male characters who they are romantically linked to in some way. Yeah, right, because I was like, oh Connie, Okay, well I didn't even first I didn't. I don't think they name what her job is. So they did pretty early, do they? Okay, she goes, I mean it's another one of those like there is a lot of dialogue and a lot of quick, quick exchanges and it's very blank and you'll miss it. Someone. Yeah, someone does say like, like, you're the press secretary, this is your job? You know? Okay, we we know her job, we see that she's a woman in politics. She seems important, right, like you said. But then the respect of hot president. They have that fun exchange about how he's hot. We can't say it enough. But then as soon as we find out that she is the ex wife of Jeff Goldblum's character, she does nothing in the story except for like hold his hand and like look longingly at him. He realized the meaning of love. They realized that, you know, the world is burning, and you know they should have valued each other. But now they have this second chance because they didn't explode into bull of fire. I don't know if I'm more frustrated by Connie or by the first lady, because both of them are just like you start out with, like, you know, at least the feeling of like, oh, there's some potential here. They could do something, And then it's just the male characters in their lives just slowly sapped them of their agency until they either die or retire. Um, there's no government anymore. They don't need a press secretary. They blew up the White House. Where is there to do government at way? Starting jewelry company, start etty store, and she and Jeff called bloom Will, I don't know, build a cable company together. So then pretty early on Will Smith's character and his girlfriend Jasmine are separated physically. Uh, and we kind of waited Jasmine more than I thought we would. I figured, like we would just kind of forget about her, she wouldn't be a character. Yeah, because it's like to give this movie some like small ribbons. You know, Roland likes to I don't know if he's overstating it, but like he he would talk about how he had to fight the studio to get Will Smith cast because, um, you know, Captain Hiller is probably you know, the closest thing to a main character, and like they really didn't like the idea of a black lead. I'm not surprised, and it was not bankable, and especially combining that with the fact that, you know, Jasmine probably has more screen time than even Connie, so she probably has like she's like the most fleshed out female character in the movie. She probably has the most screen time of all the women, so you know, and it's just like, well, for a woman of color to get a bigg ish part in like, you know, the biggest movie of the year, it's like, okay, you're you're a gold star, you're one, You're one who And then one of the other main characters is identifiably Jewish and that I feel like it's a pretty it looked like a wheel. Yeah, judge her good sport. Yeah, I'm talking about Jeff Golbo. But representation win. Representation win, I mean is like you can there's sort of like the iffy optics of a German Man writing this character, and it's like, sure, sir, where do you stand? Okay, getting back to Jasmine, she is she is, like I mean, she's my favorite female character, mostly because we knew more about her and we saw her more than any other female character. We find out that she is a stripper, so we find out what her job is. Again, it's like kind of weird optics on that too, where I feel like, you know, like, we get these two rich white ladies in these fancy white lady jobs and then the only woman of color is a strip so the optics there are, and we contrived a way to get her in her like stripper outfit, her Las Vegas show girl stripper out I was like this club, Yeah, it's like that's like a samba outfit. She even explains how like that is just sort of forced into the movie. She was like, I just showed up to work to get my paycheck and they made check, and like it's just like we had to this gratuitous who is who is coming into the strip club on the day of the alien invasion? Why is anyone at work? Like whatever? Like Mario, who's the guy who owns the club? Mario is still yelling at her. She also did bring her child and her dog to the strip club, but she shouldn't get a sitter. Yeah that' said. Okay, So even though the optics on that are like funky and questionable, at least they do not you know, like the they don't use it as an excuse to degrade her. She like advocates for herself when Hillary Clinton's like, oh, I'm sorry, you're a sex worker, and She's like, no, I'm not sorry. It's like that's how I make Like I make money, and like I do it for my son, who is worth it, Like yeah, it's there's no like, well, one day I won't have to do this, you know. It's just like, you know, I'm fine with it. It's it's cool. They have their sex positive conversation. It ends with Hillary Clinton being like, maybe it is cool, hadn't thought of it anyways, internally bleeding to death. Thanks for talking to me in my last moment. Kind of fun that that was her final lesson. She's like, man in life, I should have respected sex workers more. Anyways, I mean, at least it's just like, well, if a woman had to get fridged, at least it's not the woman of color, that's true. That's like an old star representation win maybe. But then we have Harry Connick Jr. Telling Steve Hiller, Oh, you're never going to get to fly a spaceship if you marry a stripper because Will Smith is trying to be in NASA, and Harry Connick Jrs. Like, don't marry a stripper? An arbitrary? I know? To me, it makes perfect sense. That makes one million sense to me. Yeah, yeah, just like the optics of astronauts are. I actually I just met an astronaut over the weekend. Uh. The people they select to be astronauts have to be perfect on so many levels, Like not only are they like, you know, incredibly like extroverted and charismatic, they also like all of them have like the perfect nuclear family. So I think it is, yeah, the the you know, because like right now they're prepping up for a crew dragon as SpaceX, and you know, whenever they talk to the people who work at SpaceX, they always like whiplicked to play up that, like, well, I can't wait to come home to my children. Boy. I sure do you have children? Boy? And have children? Please don't blow us up. So yeah, I think I think I think that it's just like as as silly as it is, I think it's like, yeah, that that would absolutely be a concern. Sure. But also Harry Conna Junior's character sucks so fucking He's like imitating Jesse Jackson at one point because he has the role normally of the like goofy black friend who dies. So it's like and he's doing that voice. It's like so bizarre. Yeah, it's interesting because it's almost like they that for a black guy Will Smith, and then they reversed the part. I think Cass Matthew Perry before your Econic right, so like it was always intended for an annoying white guy. It's so weird. I don't know Harry Conny Junior's performances we've got to take up. We must take a break from Harry Connick Jr. And then we will come right back. We're kind of wrapping up the discussion on Jasmine, where it's like there's a there's a lot, there's pros, there's cons. She kicks down the door. She kicks down the door because women went in action movie must kick something. At some point she has she's like, you know, de nearest, she's the unburnt. Yeah, we're just kiddy. She manages to survive that closet. It's heat resistant, don't worry, But there is there is like another kind of she is a caretaker and a motherly role. For the majority of the movie, we do get to know what her job as we do get to see her talk about herself and advocate for herself, but she is protecting her child. Not to say that she shouldn't, but she is kind of put into that maternal role and then also uh starts to rescue people and then also briefly kind of becomes Hillary Clinton's mommy nurse. So I mean, there's nothing like inherently wrong, Like there's nothing wrong with being a good parent, right, But I think one thing you like, I think that's only kind of very recently started to change. Is like when you have action movies and disaster movies, men's narratives tend to be we are here to solve the problem and fight the problem. Women's narratives tend to be survival narratives. And I think hers is you know, kind of like the horror version of that where it's like during the you know, disaster, she is the face of humanity who had to endure it, and she then has to survive until she is rescued by Will Smith. Um, so yeah, you see, you see that a lot like you know, like Hunger Games is you know prime like is the first one is a survival narrative. An they're like, weird thing about this movie that I don't know. I see a movie like this and I don't expect to see great fathering, but there's pretty much like everyone is a good parent in the movie Hot President and a good parent. Hillary Clinton is a good parent, Vivica A. Fox is a good parent. Will Smith is a great step dad. Even Randy Quaid, you know, he's doing his best and probably lay off the sauce, but sick kid gets his medicine. Judd Hirsch is like, don't get off the cold floor, and he thinks that the idea for the computer virus. So it's like like the fathers and the mothers are are parenting equally well, but the you know, fathers get to go off and do cool ship and right, whereas the mother. Yeah. So that's that's the my favorite shot of the movie, because I have all of them are. My favorite shot of the movie is where after the aliens are beat and you know, Robert Loggi goes, we got him beat Tom, and then he goes, how about our boys? Are they back yet? And then in the background you see vivid a Fox and Connie like step into the frame and be like, yeah, for boys are back. Just yeah, they're they're completely just sidelined for the I mean whatever act three. Jeff Bull, Yeah, well I do say you better come back right, yeah, because they both say it like in their own and Connie goes, why does it have to be you? Why can't some other like human sacrifice go And then the boys come back and then the two women run towards them, and then the kids looks not like she's just been through the end of the world. Another thing I want to say about her character is and I'm curious what everyone thinks about this, but she is the only one who seems to voice any concern about the impending alien invasion. She's like, I don't feel good about this, and then Will Smith is like, well, they didn't find ninety billion light years just to like kill us all, and it's like, of course they did, Like I mean, they might be asking for help. Maybe could be like it could be like an Octavia Butler's lil It's Browed trilogy where just like we need some genetic diversity. Randy Quaid, you're looking pretty. There is a moment during the and this is just like maybe laugh when Will Smith is like leaving um and then there's something, you know, apocalyptic happening in the distance, like a fox runs out to him. She's like honey, honey, honey, and like doesn't notice the apocalypse until Will Smith says, look, how this could you not see it? Yeah? I had someone on because I was like, where is this? Because this is obviously a place and that exists in the real world, and so I'm like, you know it is because the magic of Twitter. Someone like within five minutes was like, here's the address. It's in Glendale. What a great gallery in Glendale. So the point is, so Will Smith drove from Glendale to Orange County like kind of the south part of Orange County. I mean it makes sense because Jasmine has to go through downtown l A to get to El Toro. So that's why I mean, so it kind of makes sense that she had she works in downtown l A. She had to get her paycheck and then she got talked into work and so she was on her way. But I think, like everybody's like getting out, and I feel like it needs it must needs be remarked. President Hottie is not a good president. He is quite bad at the presidenting. Like his first you know, like maybe let's not evacuate the city's like, yeah, he's too busy. Why does he fraid he's going to offend the aliens? I think he's secretly like, okay, let's alien nuke the states that don't vote for me. Yeah, And I'm just like I have some like and Jeff Goldbloom, come on, even if they knu every single alien ship that would not cause nuclear winter? Do you know how many nuclear tests there have been, Jeff Goldbloom, It's been um so anyway, So Jasmine is like, hey, I think there might be something bad. I have a bad feeling about these ominous alien ships that are hovering over every major city in the world. So I'm wondering it is like, does that is that kind of playing to the trope of like a woman's intuition kind of thing where like think she's the only person looking at the gigantic doom machine. I mean, like, let's be real, like black people do tend to have a better self preservation instinct, so I think it's like speaking to that truth of like all the white people are like, you know, they're probably here at a party. But then says that too, and he's like he's a guy, you know. Yeah. I mean it's I'm glad that someone said it, because it is very weird to be like people seem remarkably unconcerned nineties. They're just like, yeah, the aliens are here. I love et. So I guess it's good that like we see like the one person who like voices any sort of concern and ends up being right about it is a woman. On the other hand, there is Mary, his wife whitmore a k Hillary Clinton and her she's away. Do we know what she's doing. She's away on first Lady business. She's like doing first Lady stuff at l A. Right, So she's she's away and she's you know, talking to hottie president and he's like, hey, I think, like, babe, I think the world might be like ending, so you should come home, and she's like, no, I I have to finish doing this, which is like dumb, but whatever. She said no to her husband. Fine, but there is a gold star. But then but then she is later unished for that decision because she dies because she didn't leave when he told her to. She does end up dying, and in her with her dying breath and it's just like, oh, like all right, with her dying breath. She apologizes to her husband for not coming home when he said she shut up and that you know, if only she had listened to her husband, she would she wouldn't have died, an amazing lesson, and her her last word is liar. Yeah, like they he's just like kind of one of those things where it's like it is it is difficult to write, like in jokey banter between two characters because it's like it's hard to translate, but they're weird like relationship. And joke is he'll like say an obvious lie and she'll go liar. And the first time they do that is when he wakes up and she calls him and he's like he's got his daughter in bed with him, and he's like, I have a confession to make. I'm lying next to a beautiful brunette and I'm like, weird, Yeah, it's weird joke to make president your child. Yeah, And she's you know, she's like and there was the other one, like he'd say like an obviously and she'd go liar. And like the last little in jokey banter they do is him going the doctors think you're gonna be fine, a horrible thing to say, you're dying like blood purple song out of her esophagus. And also no one is like, no one is worried enough about little May Whitman. Like she gets a hug from her dad. I'm like, doesn't I really understand what's going on? Because the next day sleeping, Yeah, she's asleep. And now it's the more the July and there's you know, alien arms around fire and we're smiling, like the two children. Vivica a Fox's son and May Whitman like when they're hiding in the bunker and like it's like I love nineties movies because like children do not act like children where they're just like quietly sitting while chaos us is erupting around the people are screaming. And the little boy says to her, are you scared? And she quietly nods and goes and he goes, me too, cut carnage outside, liar, And she shakes her head and he goes, liar, like your kids, you're crazy. Can we talk about the conversation between David Levinson a K. Jeff Goldbloom and Connie, the Press secretary where they talk about the first time they're on screen together. They're talking about a fight that David and the president got into where David punched him in the face because he thought his wife was having an affair with Whitmore so you know it wasn't, but she did later but right or something. I don't know, I'm doing it. I'm presidents in an open marriage. They're cool with it, liar, h. So that's a fun thing that happens. And then they have this conversation about her career when they're an area fifty one. She is talking about working in the White House and how the president is a good man. Oh yeah, he's he's getting drunk or through them the scene, she's like, the president is a good man, and he says he'd better be. You left me for him, or you know your career, and she says, you know, it wasn't just my career. It was the biggest opportunity of my life. I wanted my life to make a difference. I wanted my life to mean something. And then he says, and I wasn't ambitious enough for you. And then they started talking about him and how smart he is, but how unambitious he is, which he's like just every redditor like I'm a secret I'm a secret genius. Or it's just like you know what I could be really like successful, I'm just I'm a genius. Who's lazy. I'm just lazy. I'm just too tired. Right, And it's like he refused an underachiever. He apparently refused to correct that problem, and so she left him, like right, well, it's just like he just would not move for hers. What it seems like he just seems comfortable in his rut in New York being a you know, engineer at Comcast or whatever. I love that male narrative of just like, well I am smart enough to do something like better, but I'm not going to. But you know I could. I just haven't been presented with the correct opportunity like an alien apocalyptic invasion. Yeah, now's my chance and see babe. But like, I feel like this could have been a much more interesting conversation about like how he resents her career ambitions because of his like fragile male ego, which is something that happens in a lot of you know, hetero couples. And then she could like call him out for not respecting her and her agency and all that stuff, which is where it seems like the conversation is headed. But then they just end up talking about what a genius he is, and then it ends with her saying I never stopped loving you, and then that's the beginning of their romance. Rekind was enough? Was it? It reminds me of like the like Michael Bay does the mean version of this a lot like Transformers one, which steals a lot from Independence Day Um also kind of steals that narrative of like a guy who's like a slacker and useless that you know, given the opportunity, can um rise above and you know, be the successful boy. But I think the thing is like with you know, a character like Sam with Wicky, he is absolutely meant to be like the Cipher, he is the self insert character um. And I think there's a reason why the the you know, these movies are always written like this, like it is basically you know, meant to appease the way men see themselves. You know, that is reflective media, where media reinforces a societal norm. You know, people internalize that, and therefore media is created that you know, is sympathetic to like this particular worldview and back and forth and then like that, just the cycle continues. So I think you know that of course, that that that conversation was never ever going to challenge him, because it, you know, was meant to validate that that self image of I'm just a secret genius, I'm just lazy. You're the problem because you don't see my secret genius and like you wanted too much for yourself. And also just like equating, like it couldn't just be that she wanted a career. It had to have also have been another man. Yeah, he's like, oh, your work for the president, so you must be fucking the president, which I mean with Bill Clinton. I mean maybe Jeff gold just not a very good He's not a very good partner. I know. It's jealous of her job and of her being in the same room with other men, and like she's like in politics, most of the people she's going to be in the same room with they're gonna be men. Maybe, and he just like he maybe you just knew that about himself. He couldn't deal with it. And like the Jeff Goldblum character just kind of speaking to what you're saying about, like reinforcing how men see themselves. It I feel like it even goes a step further because it's not just saying like, oh, like there's a large amount of men who you know, feel that they are secretly capable of more than the opportunities that they're given and they're angry about it. But in Jeff Goldblum's case, they make they also make that true and so everyone around him is like, you are a genius, like because it's like you need to be, you know, presented with extraordinary circumstance in order to realize your potential, and it's as it's a very appealing narrative. And I think it's like it tends to star men because they know tend to need the most validation, but also like I think I think they're you know, male audiences are going to respond a lot more strongly to this idea of like I'm a secret genius than women are. As why you never really see like women characters that are just like I'm just a shlub until like until because they, like women have to, they start hyper competent and good at something, and then they get more hyper competent. And I was like Captain Marvel or Catanists or every female Marvel character. Yes, it's fortunately all men are secret geniuses. You're all very smart. The same thing kind of applies to the president, where in the beginning it set up the public thinks that he's a whimp, he's not like the fierce leader that Americans thought they elected, and then he redeems himself by going into battle as like a fighter pilot, as a soldier to fight off the alien invaders. So it's like the idea of like a man showing his worth by like being a warrior, a protector, like that's how men. That's how men show how awesome they are and that they're not whims. And I mean it probably got him re elected in the upcoming election because he's anymore. I think it's like it immediately descends into fascism, yeah, because you know, there's like alien survivors, there's alien Guantanamo Bay. It's you know, and it's very controversial because it's just like, well, should we treat them the way they treated us? And then it's like in District what was it? It's like that, but worse, like there's torture. They try to hide it. It's District nine, just like July five in the World of Independence Day. I feel like if this movie extended to July fifth, Yeah, it would get very dark for quickly because then May Whitman needs to learn that her mother. Everybody's pushing aliens in the head, right, it's just going to be a disaster. Yeah, But you know, it's funny because like it depended day resurgence. It was It's like, uh, I guess it took a very humanity after the Black Plague approach to rebuilding because everything's great, We've got all this technology, world peace achieved. You know when like you're just like we were built really well, everything's great. Um, Hong Kong's looking pretty nice. I have I have a question for the table. Do you think yes or no that this movie was approved of and partially funded by the Pentagon. It absolutely was not. It was not I would have guessed though, Yes, I guess that it was. And then I did some researches because we've talked like briefly in the Transformers episode and I think also in the Rock of just like movies that were signed off on, I mean the Transformers, the entire I mean you know, so, I mean like here's the thing. It's like, yeah, it's it's actually really hard to get numbers on this sort of thing because like for the Pentagon it's classified, and for Hollywood they don't have to open their books. So it's like from project to project, you don't know what the subsidy looked like, but you can you can tell that it's probably a lot more sizeable if there's actually a tie in ad campaign like Man of Steel had that and Captain Marvel had that. Yeah, Captain Marvel is like one of the more recent movies that it majorly promotes the Air Force um, like, I mean, it goes back to like after Top Gun came out, like Enlistment went way the funk up every Transformers movie, a couple Marvel movies, not all of them, like Winter Soldier, Iron Man one and two, but not the Avengers because I guess the no, they didn't. Actually Avengers got shot down for a pretty similar reason that Independence Day got shot down, which was they didn't like the shadowy cabal of the Powers that Be in the Avengers that were like giving secret orders to Shield. That's what they didn't like. And in the Independence Day they didn't like Area fifty one other thing that they didn't like about Independence Day that I found because it's it's I mean again, it is hard to find details, but it seems to kind of come down to this one guy, Phil Strub. Until like Phil Strub, he does not even his job anymore. He was removed at the end of last year. And oh he was he was there for like the entire eight Yeah, he was there for like almost thirty five years. Yeah, I went in a phil Strub hole. Yeah. Fil Strub is interesting because he's like he's like the shadow man that like no one can get an interview with him. He is like so he for for our listeners, he is like the connection between Hollywood and depending on the military, like any movie that receives their seal of approval have to go through him directly. And it was like that since possibly like it's like the eighties, and it was the eighties, like early eighties, like top Gun was definitely in there all the way up until the end of eighteen and there was never a press release. But he's no longer in that position as someone else had no idea. It's confusing, but he so one of the reasons given for Independence Day, and it's like again, he will never state this, but I guess that Will Smith's Navy pilot dating a stripper was a problem for the Pentagon as well. You're right, yea, So yeah, so this movie did not get the Pentagon Salver approval and I guess as a result, like had to develop effects even better because they didn't have any really assistance, So there was some special effects that so more of the story, Uh, feminist icon the Pentagon, and I mean this, I feel like this movie does do a fair amount to like normalize sex work and stripping more than a lot of movies we have seen, which we'll just have a scene that takes place in a strip club for no reason and then they're just like naked women there as scenery. So at least we don't you know, at least it goes a few steps beyond that. And to roll in Emeric's credit, you can kind of tell the movie wasn't directed by a straight guy, right, you know, it's just like he clearly the camera clearly has no just in Jasmine sexually like he like he thinks she's pretty, but like the camera never leers on her, like if you can again compared like the obvious comparison being Michael Bay, but like they like there's never any leering shots that are like objectifying or fetishizing, like she's always very human the first time you see her, she's like fully clothed and plaid and has a ponytail, like and that the one stripping seems a very very short, very show girly Yahd's like the way it's shot is just like you know, like, yeah, I like women, Yes, I like yeah, looks good, like just it feels a little like I I respect with like I don't really know how to make a woman look sexy because I don't really want that. But like a lesser director probably would have like been like, oh, we're not going to get Penticon money if we leave a stripper narrative in because it could technically be removed from the story and not affect that much, um which you know, does that speak to how much the women affect the blo Yes, But it's like I thought it was like cool that he didn't cut it, even though that was one of the reasons given. But she's positive, she's she's here to normalize sex work to Hillary Clinton, she showed her a thing or two about a thing or two with your assumptions. I make good money. I own a house in Glendale. Yeah, I'm not a ballerina. I'm like, I can't have heard a house in Glenda. Let's say, who can? This is such This is such a like an Americ centric movie for being directed by a German guy because his follow up was The Patriot. Oh yeah, Stroland has an interesting an interesting I think it was The Patriot and it was either Godzilla or The Patriot. Actually think Godzilla was next in The Patriot came after that, right, But yeah, he has an interesting filmography. But it's just like all the people in the movie who were like the most capable, the ones who were going to figure out how to crack this alien problem are all in America and everyone else in the rest of the world was just like sitting around twiddling their thimbs like a bloody time. Best scene ever, he's also the Day After Tomorrow, right, that's him to the other best movie. He loves a disaster, loves a disaster because that was when he was like trying because I think that's like her post nine eleven Roland. It's like, yeah, where he's like I'm going to use my you know, disaster movie powers to make money, which, again, to Roland's credit, he's like one of the few was one of the few people people keeping non franchise films alive because you know, you think of like the biggest grossing movie in being Independence Day. You know that would never happen now ever, ever, ever, But yeah, because like you know, back when, so like Day After Tomorrow him trying to like I'm going to make a point and I'm going to make people take this seriously, and I think it probably had the opposite of what a goofy that's like a chillen Hall Emmy Rossa, and it kind of does the same thing with like President Dick Cheney at the end where it's just like he's trying to be sympathetic because the Power that be and give them the benefit of the doubt. Loved that where they was like all the Americans like breaking into Mexico on right? Is Dennis Dennis Quaid, isn't that movie? Yes, speaking of a quake, I wanna stay just a little bit about Randy Quaid's kids. Yes, Oh, yes, so that we learned in the back story that there's no mom because I feel like all the moms are dead or die in this movie for the most part. Yeah, exactly, because Jeff Goldblum's mom is dead and then the first lady also dies. Um. So Randy Quaid has two sons and a daughter. The sons get to talk a lot when we see them, you know, they're in the scene there in the foreground, whereas like the daughter hardly says anything. She's usually in the background. The one scene where she is the focus, she is with a boy who is trying to convince her to have sex with him, to lose her virginity with him, and then her brother comes in and He's like, come on, we gotta go, and she's like, I'm not going anywhere, and then her brother yanks her away. That happens to her twice too, because Randy Quaid does that to her one of the times where she keeps being like I want to do this, and then someone around her just like no, Sam, what's her name? Wow, it's finally something about into Pennis Day. I don't know. I do not know those character's character's name. I was trying to I like grew wound scenes. I was looking for it because I knew this older sister and Mrs doutfires and yes, because the girl's brother. According to according to IMDb, it's her character's name is Alicia. I mean nothing. She she never appeared. I don't think her name is ever mentioned, at least in the theatrical cut. I think it might be in the director's cut, because again, like the director's cut is like so much meandering of like you know, there's a lot more of like mcguil being resentful of Randy Quaid and fairness. He has a good reason to be resentful, like the Q man, he needs to lay off the sauce. He's not being a very good father. I just feel like, sure, Randy Quaid does comment at the very end and saves the day, but I feel like his storyline should be cut entirely. Have someone else save the day. Have the fucking president's save of the day. I don't care, but just like there should be more real estate any quay the president cut the pullman to me, anything is worth Hello, boys, I'm back yes, And then that the crowd cheers, Yeah, they're actually uh in preparation for this not really um one of the in the distant past episodes of Game of Thrones that left are really bad taste in my mouth. And I had like I had some people over for a watch party, as like we're watching an Independence Day because it's like it's just especially like if you have really you know, a nice like home system, it's like it's just hold like the you know, the effects hold up really well, but it's just like the you know, joyous dumbasstery like of of like you know, Randy Quaid's ca eliminating moment. It always makes me. And then like the music swells and alien body parts of ringing from the sky and it's just so like you know, you say that it is so it's so and it's like I can't think of any other screen moment like that. Where again, it was like, if if there was a suicide moment played today, it would be extremely grim, we would, you know, But this is like a blaze of glory moment, Like it's not meant to be sad at all. Like when three children have just lost their fathers. There's three children are I'm so dad, we inherited the RV. It's fine, they're right there now there's just three kids in an RV, which is a series I would watch. I mean, I just think that we should have cut the Randy Quaid subplot and spent more time developing the female characters. I loved. Have to say Randy's got to stay, but give Randy's daughter more to I say, cut one of Randy's sons. Don't need, we don't need have her be the puk. We actually don't. We can get rid of both so we can make her uh mad at Randy Quaid and sick. And then you have a daughter like you're not my father. Yeah, I don't know. I kind of like that. It's a boy who's like, you're just wried. I think that's in the director, So movie has got a middle part, You're like ninety six? Yeah. Um. Can we talk briefly about how this movie handles queerness, which is that we see Harvey Firestein in the movie The Gay of the Early Nineties played the same character in Uh. Yes, you know. It's a pretty stereotypical portrayal of a gay man. H then he dies almost immediately. And then there's another moment where Steve Hiller is at base with Harry Knnick Jr. Harry picks up the ring that he's going to propose to Jasmine with, So it looks like Harry Connick Jr. Is like on his knees proposing to well Smith. That's what it looks like. And then and then this other guy walks in and then he sees them. I love that joke, and then he like walks away that He's like, you guys, you guys are having a moment. I'm going to leave you to it. I'm glad that you have that interpretation. I interpreted more as like, oh, I don't want any part of this. Let me slowly back away, and then I run because I am coming at it from the like knowing Roland Demrick and his background it was just like a being a gay man, be being incredibly naive. That does that context us, yes, because I think like he thinks, like obviously he thinks Harvey Firestein is hilarious. Um, And I don't think he sees it as self deprecating or like as playing into stereotypes. I think he sees it as isn't Harvey fires hilarious? Isn't it funny? When he goes forget my lawyer, like and cracking up. Yeah. Yeah, Like he's like, oh, it's just like the fact that his death is oh crap, you know, like again something you wouldn't never ever seen a press like it's like not even played for pathos. It's just like, well we lost another one. So strange because like to me, Harvey Forresting plays way less into queer tropes and more into Jewish tropes. But he he's like calling everybody and he's like you gotta go stay with an Esta, you know. And then like he's on the phone with his lawyer. He's on the phone with like every you know, every person he hasn't even a remote business relationship. He's like for three an hour, like you can put me through to his house in the Hampton's. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, that didn't that that didn't bother me too much, just knowing that it's a queer director and it's like, you know, he but also Roland Emrick made, you know, he made. I think Roland is very like he's got some weird I know, I think he just like and this is not to excuse it, but I really do think he comes from a place of incredible privilege because he was raised incredibly wealthy. He was like, you know, lived in boarding schools his entire childhood, and then he just immediately got a ton of money and started go making movies. So I think he was really insulated from uh, you know, the struggles because you know, he doesn't he's not really a part of any community except for the community of the incredibly wealthy. So I think he's incredibly detached from any kind of conversation so interesting cultural. There's a when I was doing more research on just him in general. One of the first thing that pops up as an interview he did in headline Roland Emeric being gay in Hollywood has been easy just like, Yeah, I think I think that is true because he does he's easy to work with. By all accounts, he stays on budget. He doesn't rabble, rouse, he doesn't agitate, he doesn't advocate. And it's interesting because Stonewall was a passion project of his, Like that's basically why he made Independence Day Resurgence was so he could get funding for Stonewall. And you can also and you can really tell just that he has no connection with any queer communities. He just he's he sees it as like, yes, these are my people, but he does not engage with them at all or some and would have been like, buddy, this is a bad another queer person literally any like no, I just think he just he's very isolated and the fact that he just kind of you know, plays the game and it doesn't seem to ever occur to him that to ask for rights for anyone but himself. He literally he really has not had a hard time, especially because he had like two big hits right out of the gate and he could just write his ticket to make any movie he wanted. Because you know, it's just because like he's I mean, he was out, but he never did any advocacy. I mean, I think he considered making Stonewall advocacy. Yeah, alright, I love an eccentric rich person. And the other final thoughts about the movie before we wrap up, Um, it's just fun. It's fun. I love it so much. The shot with the dog. I liked that when the dog when the dog, Like, I was like, that's this is a big budget movie because there is a dog doing something heroic. I just I have I have infinite love for Like again, it draws back to the question of can a stupid movie be good because it's because I was thinking about like the uh months ago finale of Game of Thrones, which was, you know, it was kind of dumb, like and you know, it's just like you have a show like Game of Thrones, which can't be dumb because it was falling from such a like a place of you know, internal consistency and sharp dialogue and you know, character consistency, and then it just kind of got dumb in service of the plot. And for that reason it was not good. But Independence Day is deeply dumb and very naive and like just just you know, incredibly like myopic and you know, hypernationalist. I I'm just like, I don't want to say I excuse all of it, but I think I can I can make a good case for it being a very tight, well made movie in a way that Roland Nemrick has never been able to replicate. So I think that Independence Day gives hope for stupid stories everywhere. I mean, that was a speech as beautiful as you, like, Hey, hey, editor, you need to put Bill Pullman's like powerful music under under my speech about how dumb movies can be good. Actually, and the movie does pass the Bechdel tech. Yeah, a couple of times talking about sex positivity. Even that conversation, Yeah, that okame as a surprise to me. Jasmine and her colleague who gets named as Tiffany talk about the welcome party for the Aliens and how Jasmine tells Tiffany that she should not go, even though Tiffany goes and then dies, and then Jasmine, yeah, the first lady to talk about the conversation starts with her son and then about will Smith, but then for a few lines they talk about her. Yeah. There's a few tiny exchanges between little May Whitman and her mom too that are just like hi, mommy. But I mean just think there was especially that scene with Jasmine and the first lady. You're like, all right, we've got some there's some moves to this, there's some substance here, actually, Presca, I mean, we may need to go back on this, like review this, but I actually think most of Roland's movies passed the back testing. I think Godzilla might be the Godzilla and the Patriot might be the two right. Also though, remember that probably percent of the dialogue is not passing the backest sole minimum another tiny ribbon, A lot of tiny ribbons on this gigantic movie. And then there's like a lot of red pins, like some gold stars, a lot of red pins. That's why I like, I love movies like this that are like super watchable but deeply flawed. Like that's another reason why I like I love Transformers. Oh seven was that was the only one that was watchable of the group. But it was so like just so much to deconstruct, like you know, the mill of Terry and the terrible characters and the way it shot, Like I mean, I could go on your incredible serious serious about that. Let's write the movie on a nipple scale, uh zero to five nipples based on his representation of women. I'm going to give it like a half nipple because even though there are some kind of like pleasant surprises in the movie, like it passing the backde tests. We know what each of the women does for a living, stuff like that. But also they're all just like characterized by the relationships that they have two men. Really, no time is spent developing them as people who are important to the story in any way. It's just the women are there because they want to kiss the boys. So half nipple and I will give my half nipple too. Is the dog's name, Boo Boomer Boomer, I will give it one nipple. Also, Alf for Melena could have been a hottie president. He could have been Randy Quaid. He's so yeah, he can do anything, so he can really be us anyone in this movie. But I'm gonna give it one because sex positive question mark. I thought that was like a pleasant thing to see there be even though women have no effect on the plot in the movie whatsoever. If you removed all the women from the movie, it would just be different, thirty minutes shorter. And then they fridged a woman and that's just so lazy and boring. But I did like that, you know, they went out of their way to uh, you know, fully characterize a sex worker in a way that wasn't shamy or shitty, and but then they fridged someone immediately after, lots lots to consider. I'm gonna get give it one nippy and I'm gonna kick it back to Baby May women. All right, Yeah, well, you know what, I'm super biased. I'm gonna I'm grading it on a curve because nineties not even too just because I love Jasmine so much. I think it is super curvy. Because when I think of, like, you know, like even a movie like Men in Black with its one woman, you know, and like everything else again Jurassic Park with its one woman and another one child woman, which there is a Jurassic Park reference whenever Jeff Goldblum at the end when they're trying to fly out of the mothership, he says, must go faster, must go faster, which is also what Jeff Goldblum said in Jurassic Park Brave of Him. So yeah, cool. Well, Lindsay, thank you so much for being there, for having We love having you every time. What would you like to plug? Where can people follow you online? Et cetera. You can find me on Twitter at the Lindsay Ellis Because I made that account two thousand and eight, but realized I had to live with it forever um and on YouTube. My YouTube channel is just my name, and my debut novel, which totally has a title, has such a title. St. Martin's press in hopefully and it does. It does does definitely have whispers of Independence Day. Aliens are involved. Love it good, Yes, read her book when it comes out. Watch Lindsay's It'll such a title, so much of a title, incredible. I can't even say it. It's just like I don't want to give it that power, and then I don't want to be too successful. And then watch all of Lindsay's video essays we have and we like they've informed some of our takes. Yes, indeed, so thanks again. You can follow us at us ever heard of us at bectel cast on the social media platforms that you tend to use, Twitter, Instagram, sometimes Facebook. You can also subscribe to our patreon ak Matrion celebrate your independence this year by giving us five dollars. What a great incredible use of them. If you are patriotic, then you should be matriotic and give us money. Matriotic, Matriotic. The Matriot directed by Roland emeric all female rebit of the Patriot Matriot. Well, I mean Mel Gibson is canceled and Heath Ledger is r ip so we have to Yes, um, so you can. You can sign up. It's five dollars a month for two bonus episodes every month, plus our entire backlog. So that's it's almost it's almost fifty. We can't stop, and we refuse to stop. We're very sick. You can buy our merch. We've got Feminism is the Law now woman in stem Rise of the Matriarchy, or some of our newer ones plus all of our classics like feminist icon, feminist icon from Lena etcetera at t public dot com, slash the Bechtel cast. Yes, um and uh until what's our And we will not go quietly into the night. We will not vanish without a fight. We will live on. I was going to survive. That was way better than my plans. Just started singing America the Beautiful So that was you kicked my ass. Today we celebrate our Independence Day a beautiful source. Fine