077 - Informal settlements - we need solutions not gadgets, Richard Walls

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello, everybody.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Welcome to the fire science show this week.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We're back to the subject of informal settlements and fire.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I guess you may remember we had Danielle Antonellis from Kindling sometime ago into podcasts.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Actually super happy that Danielle has won the international woman of the year in fire awards.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, amazing achievement, Danielle.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So very well-deserved, I'm so happy for you.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And our podcast episode is quite a testimony to why this awards.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>When to you.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Into today's episode.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I am interviewing a scientist who works in South Africa.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Professor Richard Walls.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Who is building his own fire group at Stellenbosch university in the South Africa.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's actually going quite amazing.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You should watch them.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They're doing so good, amazing stuff coming from, from their group.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>However, the reason why I've invited Richard is that he really has touched the subject.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>He has the.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Field experience with this topic.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>He's seen these fires.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's in the settlements.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>He's talking to the local authorities.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>He's talking to people.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>He has participated in project Iris.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That touched the fires of informal settlements and his group has carried the full scale experiments within that program.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So today, We're going to talk a little more about the engineering of this topic.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What makes the challenges, how does the landscape of the informal settlements Where do the fire challenges come from actually?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And how do we deal with them?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Some really good ideas.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How can we deal with them?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And the Supreme potent explanation, why fire safety cannot be solved by one gadgets?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Why there's not a silver bullet that can solve.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The fire safety issue why do we need to look holistically at the problem Unfortunately We can only go from a hundred to zero fires.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We cannot just, Prevent them all, but, uh, with a very realistic view on, on this matter.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Richard's group is trying to, limit this as, as low as possible.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Every fire prevented.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Every fire that did not spread the massive event is someone's life.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Saved someone's property safe.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So very well.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Efforts.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Furthermore Richard it has published a guideline of fire safety engineering in such spaces.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And we're going to talk about this as well in the episode.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So a real material, very useful material.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>, that's actually going to affect the safety of a billion of people.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's that's I still find that astounding.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How many people are.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Under fire risk.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Within these settlements.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>anyway, before we jump into the episode, I just wanted to remind you that we are gathering the questions for the Q and a episode.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's gonna air.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>At the very end of the month.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, uh, I guess you still have some time to submit a question and I'm waiting for them.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm happy to.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Answer them.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And if you send the one to one of the podcast guests, I'll try to get them, answer it for you.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I don't know if we can make it this month, but I will, I will try.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, yeah, that's it's for the introductory talk let's spin the intro and let's jump into the episode Hello everybody.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Welcome to the Fire Science Show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm today here with Professor Richard Walls from Stallenbosch University in South Africa.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hey, Richard, Great to have you in the show.

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<v Richard Walls>Hey, Great to be here.

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<v Richard Walls>Thanks for having me on the.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I would love to have you on the show, really happy that this finally happened.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I've invited you to talk about one of the research topics that is very, Close to you or, or covered a lot by your group that I see and, and that's also an important subject.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It has been already in the podcast, but I would love to go into more technicalities of that.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That is the fire, issues within informal settlements and let's say, More excluded part of the world's population, how they deal with, with fire safety issues.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, you've been researching that a lot.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I guess it is in a way connected to, your geographical location, but maybe also some other factors.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Let's start with how did you get involved in, in researching fire safety?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>in, in informal settlement?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yes.

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<v Richard Walls>Um, well firstly, in terms of fire safety in general, I got it into it like everyone else, and that's by accident.

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<v Richard Walls>Uh, I was, Yep.

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<v Richard Walls>So I don't think I've met anyone who knew they wanted to be a fire scientist or fire engineer when they were young, and then, In terms of actually getting involved in formal settlements, uh, there various things that I think helped me along the way.

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<v Richard Walls>When I was young, I actually used to help out at a burn survivor home for kids.

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<v Richard Walls>So I'd go pick them up for Sunday school on Sunday morning, and the kids were missing arms and eyes and legs and all sorts of crazy things from, Boones.

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<v Richard Walls>They'd experienced mainly from informal settlements.

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<v Richard Walls>So, It became a reality there.

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<v Richard Walls>And then once we started doing fire research, just realized the big issue, because it happens all the time.

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<v Richard Walls>I mean, literally every day in Cape Town there's a fire and across the, um, the country, 15 to 20 recorded fires per day.

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<v Richard Walls>And that's, there's, stacks of unrecorded.

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<v Richard Walls>We don't even know what the numbers are when one or two or three homes burn down, but they're not, not reported.

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<v Richard Walls>So it's a big issue and that's, that's why we decided to start getting.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>to what extent is it a recognized issue?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You, you had your personal, history of helping children, and I guess that brought you much closer, but.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>On like governmental scale or, or public opinion scale, Is it recognized as a severe issue?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like is, is the scale really recognized at this?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Because I guess every now and then you have a, a giant next biggest fire that happened and probably everyone talks about it for a week, but to, to what extent is a part of the, of the public discussion?

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<v Richard Walls>it pops up regularly because we have so many large fires.

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<v Richard Walls>So a couple of times a year, a hundred, 200, 500, a thousand homes burned down somewhere in the country.

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<v Richard Walls>So I mean, a thousand homes by international status is a massive disaster for us.

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<v Richard Walls>It's sort of a regular occurrence, so it's part of ongoing discussion.

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<v Richard Walls>So it'll often pop up, especially from the department team and settlements, national disaster management.

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<v Richard Walls>But the problem is, is it's part of.

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<v Richard Walls>Host of problems.

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<v Richard Walls>As soon as you've got millions of people staying in formal settlements, everything's a problem.

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<v Richard Walls>Health is a problem, Sanitation problem, water supply, security, safety, jobs.

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<v Richard Walls>So it's kind of a mess of everything you don't want in one place in terms of social challenges and providing infrastructure.

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<v Richard Walls>So fire is one of many things, including flooding, et cetera, et cetera.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I wonder to what extent is also a, a recent problem because I this way of inhabiting a city, uh, would exist for, for, for decades.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>but, but now with this like exponentially increasing population and in a way trend to, to get closer to cities, like the organization is a very strong trend worldwide.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is it something you observe like on the rise

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<v Richard Walls>it's definitely increasing urbanization is, is, fueling this.

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<v Richard Walls>If you speak to people who do disaster management and fire services in the more rural communities where they're on formal settlements, but they're, they're not dense, you know, one home and then spread out, fires happen, but.

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<v Richard Walls>A home goes down, maybe two homes go down.

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<v Richard Walls>It's not a a, a disastrous incident, but around our cities are, our settlements are densifying fast.

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<v Richard Walls>So what happens is when a fire does go, it spreads rapidly through the, these areas.

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<v Richard Walls>And then, I mean, we're even seeing double story and, you Them sprawling out in all directions.

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<v Richard Walls>Some of it is in South Africa linked to the fact that,  we had a apartheid and specific laws where people could and couldn't live.

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<v Richard Walls>So when apartheid ended, that led to a lot of mo movement of people, which, worsened the whole problem cause many people were short of land.

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<v Richard Walls>And so the, a host of challenges that go alongside this issue, but it's definitely on the rise and it's going to get worse, not better.

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<v Richard Walls>I mean, if we look at the statistics for Africa and the.

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<v Richard Walls>People moving to our cities in the next 30 decades, we'll probably see the settles double in size.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, the development of technology.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like, you know, everyone has a phone now.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Everyone's charging a phone.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>everyone probably, uh, has a source or, or electrical devices they would use.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Does, is it also a trend that works towards the, let's say, increased probability of ignition?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Do you observe any of this?

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<v Richard Walls>two sides for firstly, in terms of, of actual fire.

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<v Richard Walls>Cause our data's fairly poor.

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<v Richard Walls>Simply because when you go out to an informal settlement incident and homes are burned down, it's very difficult to know what actually happened because everything's destroyed and they, they happen so regularly that there's not a proper fire investigation.

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<v Richard Walls>So the fire department standing there and they say, Okay, what happened?

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<v Richard Walls>Someone says, Electrical fault.

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<v Richard Walls>Okay.

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<v Richard Walls>Yeah, we're not gonna get any better data than that.

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<v Richard Walls>So it goes on, I mean, if you were drunk and knocked over your candle, you're not gonna say that when all your neighbors have now lost their homes.

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<v Richard Walls>Uh, so in terms of electrical issues, yes, that's definitely influencing it.

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<v Richard Walls>And what you also see is that everyone needs electricity.

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<v Richard Walls>So whether it's formal or informal, there's electricity.

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<v Richard Walls>And if you have an informal settlement with no electrical infrastructure, They will run cables from, you know, 10, 20, a hundred meters from wherever ly gauge, cables draped over roofs that prevent the fire trucks from coming in that cause short circuits.

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<v Richard Walls>So, know, overload transformers, you have all sorts of other weird electrical problems.

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<v Richard Walls>I mean, I've seen poles with, I dunno, a hundred cables connected into it.

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<v Richard Walls>And then they're running to different people's homes.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This, mockup infrastructure like we, we know like electrical, uh, systems are, are a challenge in the building.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like if you want to build a nuclear plants, that's probably number one fire channel.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And you would talk about and hear like this, um, Uncontrolled growth of the electrical network can be, can be really?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How about water supply that, I mean, you need water to, to fight fires, but I guess that are better uses to water in, improvised, uh, neighborhoods.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So probably water is also a, an issue for firefighting at least.

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<v Richard Walls>Yep.

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<v Richard Walls>Water's a big issue.

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<v Richard Walls>So, uh, firstly yes, they, the, depending on which way you're on the country, some municipalities are doing better or worse.

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<v Richard Walls>They provide stand pipes, sort of a tap and you can get water from it.

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<v Richard Walls>So at least if there's quite a few of those, there's some water available.

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<v Richard Walls>If there are.

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<v Richard Walls>Hydrants for the fire department, they have their own problems because if you're short of water in your area, then hey, why don't you just build your home over the fire hydrant?

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<v Richard Walls>Then you get free water to your house and you can even sell the water to your neighbor.

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<v Richard Walls>So you have many incidents where there are call outs and the fire department cannot find where the hydrants are, especially when it's exposed ones that people can build their homes on.

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<v Richard Walls>If it's in the roadway and it's.

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<v Richard Walls>out the way, then maybe it's fine, but they can be tampered with.

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<v Richard Walls>They can be vandalized.

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<v Richard Walls>So water supplies an issue.

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<v Richard Walls>And also most of the communities spring up on land that wasn't really suitable for formal homes because that's why they're there.

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<v Richard Walls>They weren't built on.

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<v Richard Walls>And so there sometimes is.

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<v Richard Walls>Poor or nonexistent water infrastructure, uh, or there isn't sufficient pressure.

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<v Richard Walls>And where we had it, one of the big, um, fires here a couple of years ago, 2017, where, 2000 homes burnt down.

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<v Richard Walls>They were hydrants, but also at that stage we had a severe drought.

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<v Richard Walls>And so they dropped the pressure in the whole network cause of the drought.

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<v Richard Walls>They were at the hydrant and then they couldn't get enough pressure for their lines.

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<v Richard Walls>So yeah, water is a big issue as, as you correctly point.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm, I'm asking these questions to draw an image of how the landscape looks like.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We're, we are, we're gonna, in the second part of the episode, gonna talk about potential solutions and how to approach them.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But first, I would love myself and my listeners to, to understand what kind of.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Environment we, we are in.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, um, to continue this, topic and how do the fire environment in inside an informal settlement looks like?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>a question that comes to my mind, how big are this, informal settlements, I guess the range in scale, but,

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<v Richard Walls>mean, the last time I heard I'm, I'm, I'm gonna lie about the exact number, but it was over 200 settlements in Cape Town, and they range in size from couple of dozen homes to, I'm trying to think what the biggest one, You're talking a few hundred thousand, but often it's, it's difficult to define accurately because even it merges from.

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<v Richard Walls>Then you've got formal with backyard dwelling.

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<v Richard Walls>So you've got one formal home and three backyard dwellings, which are shacks.

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<v Richard Walls>So now is that formal or informal?

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<v Richard Walls>Cause there's three informal to one formal.

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<v Richard Walls>So it's sort of this mishmash and then that merges into the informal settlement.

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<v Richard Walls>So there aren't kind of clear boundaries, it's just this sprawl of urban homes.

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<v Richard Walls>But I mean, a fire can rip through 50 or a hundred meters of homes continuous and then whatever with.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>how densely are they packed?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like it's like, I know three houses and then a street, and then three houses, or it's like a continuous row of houses that, that goes through the horizon.

00:13:04.942 --> 00:13:06.503
<v Richard Walls>it depends on where you are.

00:13:06.503 --> 00:13:13.503
<v Richard Walls>If in the sort of more rural areas, further away from job opportunities, then you may have a home bit of land home.

00:13:13.503 --> 00:13:14.102
<v Richard Walls>Bit of land.

00:13:14.102 --> 00:13:17.702
<v Richard Walls>I mean maybe they even goats and cattle around and a little bit of farming.

00:13:17.802 --> 00:13:20.783
<v Richard Walls>And then as you get close to the city, they get denser and denser.

00:13:21.043 --> 00:13:27.383
<v Richard Walls>The densest, um, settlements right near sort of central business districts and perceived areas of work.

00:13:27.493 --> 00:13:31.623
<v Richard Walls>It's usually wall-to-wall homes and then there might be a meter or two pathway and.

00:13:31.972 --> 00:13:33.802
<v Richard Walls>If there's a roadway, then the road's there.

00:13:33.802 --> 00:13:42.523
<v Richard Walls>But I mean, people's homes can literally be built right up to the road so their front door opens into the, the road and um, maybe they encroach on the road.

00:13:42.523 --> 00:13:43.515
<v Richard Walls>So it ranges.

00:13:43.515 --> 00:13:48.375
<v Richard Walls>But around cities we're even starting to see double story going up, along river banks.

00:13:48.666 --> 00:13:51.538
<v Richard Walls>So, I mean, if floods are, are 50 year zones.

00:13:51.538 --> 00:13:53.857
<v Richard Walls>So then people build their homes because there's no other homes.

00:13:53.857 --> 00:13:56.457
<v Richard Walls>And then the flood, then they get flooded once a year or once every five years.

00:13:56.908 --> 00:14:01.457
<v Richard Walls>So, uh, but fairly dense, normally not continuous for kilometers.

00:14:01.937 --> 00:14:04.378
<v Richard Walls>Normally there's at least some amount of road infrastructure.

00:14:05.124 --> 00:14:11.323
<v Richard Walls>break businesses, something every between 5,000, 200 meters or so, depending on where you are.

00:14:11.522 --> 00:14:16.089
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Apologies if I'm asking ignorant white guys questions, but, uh, I just don't know.

00:14:16.239 --> 00:14:20.009
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I honestly never, never been in one, never, never saw one.

00:14:20.009 --> 00:14:24.208
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And then I learned that 1 billion people or so lives in this, this condition.

00:14:24.208 --> 00:14:25.784
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So actually that's, that's quite.

00:14:26.331 --> 00:14:26.731
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Devastating.

00:14:26.731 --> 00:14:30.341
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I, I had Danielle Antonellis on, on the episodes in the show.

00:14:30.562 --> 00:14:39.274
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, uh, that was like, wow, that, that was such an impactful, discussion and, and like, almost, making tears because of, of the impact.

00:14:39.274 --> 00:14:39.794
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>, like, wow.

00:14:40.302 --> 00:14:44.231
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This things really impacts billions with b in the front.

00:14:44.731 --> 00:14:47.351
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And you've also mentioned you've seen multi stories.

00:14:47.429 --> 00:15:00.485
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I, I guess the, the trend to understand how, how this communities develop, grow and, I guess they have some cycles within them, so, so people want to be closer to the work, to the potential sources of income.

00:15:00.669 --> 00:15:07.374
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This also probably generates a more interest of, of people staying in the proximity of the mold densely populated.

00:15:07.374 --> 00:15:15.693
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, So it increases also in a way the attractiveness of this particular place because there's more people, more chances, more more stuff.

00:15:15.823 --> 00:15:20.134
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, So I assume you've mentioned that they start growing up like into multi-story.

00:15:20.663 --> 00:15:24.333
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is this something you've already seen or is this some sort of new develop?

00:15:24.655 --> 00:15:28.225
<v Richard Walls>It's newish, so they, they're starting to appear now.

00:15:28.225 --> 00:15:28.946
<v Richard Walls>So it's not common.

00:15:29.015 --> 00:15:32.025
<v Richard Walls>I mean, I understand in India, I mean there, it's, it's common.

00:15:32.025 --> 00:15:33.105
<v Richard Walls>You have multi-story.

00:15:34.058 --> 00:15:34.178
<v Richard Walls>Whatever.

00:15:34.418 --> 00:15:41.068
<v Richard Walls>Different countries are different words they use, it's, it's in other countries it's, it's commonplace Here, it's starting to come.

00:15:41.068 --> 00:15:47.749
<v Richard Walls>Also, just the materials people use don't often allow them to go multi stories up because it's steel sheeting and light timber.

00:15:47.839 --> 00:15:49.469
<v Richard Walls>So building double, triple story.

00:15:49.609 --> 00:15:59.908
<v Richard Walls>But it's, it's coming and we, we did the large scale experiment on a double story, and man, that's, When you've got a double story in formal dwelling, it can collapse anyway.

00:16:00.009 --> 00:16:04.149
<v Richard Walls>You double the density it, the fire department can't get in there.

00:16:04.629 --> 00:16:04.948
<v Richard Walls>Suppression.

00:16:04.948 --> 00:16:06.109
<v Richard Walls>It is becoming an issue.

00:16:06.109 --> 00:16:09.068
<v Richard Walls>So you can't just run into it like a normal building cuz it's probably gonna fall on you.

00:16:09.359 --> 00:16:11.629
<v Richard Walls>So just the practicalities of it are an

00:16:12.042 --> 00:16:14.924
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and to close this part what, what's the population density?

00:16:14.924 --> 00:16:16.423
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is it a family per dwelling?

00:16:16.477 --> 00:16:18.128
<v Richard Walls>that once again ranges.

00:16:18.217 --> 00:16:25.567
<v Richard Walls>So some areas you for instance, find predominantly single male, so especially when, but then they will often have a room.

00:16:25.778 --> 00:16:27.888
<v Richard Walls>So what's even have what's called shack farming.

00:16:27.888 --> 00:16:35.083
<v Richard Walls>So you'll have, a land owner, even though they're not the owner or they're the sort of the, the dwelling owner, and they may have six rooms and each one has one person in it.

00:16:35.083 --> 00:16:36.644
<v Richard Walls>Sometimes you'll find a family.

00:16:36.653 --> 00:16:37.724
<v Richard Walls>So a family of four.

00:16:38.048 --> 00:16:43.019
<v Richard Walls>Then the cousin from the Eastern Cape moves, and then you've got a family of five, family of six, family of eight.

00:16:43.548 --> 00:16:51.208
<v Richard Walls>So the homes are sort of constantly adjusting as children and family members move around the country for survival basically.

00:16:51.658 --> 00:16:54.928
<v Richard Walls>So it, it really ranges the, the home size, the family size.

00:16:54.976 --> 00:16:59.580
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and, and now materials, you've mentioned, uh, steel sheets, uh, lightweight timber.

00:17:00.190 --> 00:17:04.339
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, so it's all improvised from this sort of materials, like whatever's available.

00:17:04.763 --> 00:17:06.711
<v Richard Walls>Yeah, people are extremely resourceful.

00:17:06.711 --> 00:17:10.911
<v Richard Walls>I mean, I'm, I'm quite impressed by the construction techniques and, and the resourcefulness and getting hold of things.

00:17:11.201 --> 00:17:15.294
<v Richard Walls>So anything that comes out of anywhere can end up in a formal settlement.

00:17:15.294 --> 00:17:16.814
<v Richard Walls>So there's not like a code of practice.

00:17:16.913 --> 00:17:20.733
<v Richard Walls>You find timber, you find old sheating steel sheeting.

00:17:20.733 --> 00:17:25.894
<v Richard Walls>You find plastic, you find nylon curtains and linings and cardboard.

00:17:26.348 --> 00:17:29.749
<v Richard Walls>Paper and health, you name it, it's there.

00:17:30.145 --> 00:17:34.736
<v Richard Walls>so there's a, there's a massive informal market for secondhand materials.

00:17:34.945 --> 00:17:39.615
<v Richard Walls>So scrap getting removed from the construction site or sometimes even just stolen.

00:17:39.826 --> 00:17:43.895
<v Richard Walls>Uh, so anything can end up there and then is used and reused.

00:17:43.895 --> 00:17:52.016
<v Richard Walls>So, I mean, from a reuse sustainability perspective, I mean, we have some of the highest recycling rates in the world in South Africa because everything gets

00:17:52.304 --> 00:17:52.794
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah.

00:17:52.794 --> 00:18:01.314
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, and materials like, concrete blocks or lightweight concrete blocks, bricks, uh, also, or these are like not very, you don't see them that often.

00:18:01.546 --> 00:18:03.336
<v Richard Walls>to some extent, less commonly.

00:18:03.373 --> 00:18:10.452
<v Richard Walls>sometimes you will see for instance, people who've been there longer, a little bit more resources when they cast a concrete slab for their their home.

00:18:10.792 --> 00:18:14.452
<v Richard Walls>You do find, once again, I was mentioning the informal formal mix.

00:18:14.452 --> 00:18:19.772
<v Richard Walls>So you'll often have a brick home that used to be there now with 6, 8, 10, 50 homes in the back.

00:18:19.823 --> 00:18:22.613
<v Richard Walls>So you do find brick homes in and amongst.

00:18:23.617 --> 00:18:31.938
<v Richard Walls>Built in the settlements because people often aren't gonna spend the money on upgrading their home where they know they've got a chance of losing their home, it burning down.

00:18:32.631 --> 00:18:33.790
<v Richard Walls>and various other reasons.

00:18:33.790 --> 00:18:38.990
<v Richard Walls>So often with lack of, of tenure comes lack of willingness to put money into your home.

00:18:39.131 --> 00:18:40.951
<v Richard Walls>And there's competing challenges.

00:18:40.961 --> 00:18:45.728
<v Richard Walls>So there there's less, putting effort and putting resources into formalizing your.

00:18:46.025 --> 00:18:54.920
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It may be quite interesting, when my institute was formed Building Research Institute where I work, it was an effort after the, the second World War.

00:18:55.180 --> 00:18:58.237
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And Poland at that moment was, completely destroyed country.

00:18:58.237 --> 00:19:02.650
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like everything was either destroyed or stolen, And, because of.

00:19:03.065 --> 00:19:09.375
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>A lot of people would resource themselves to use, this improvised materials in, in a very similar way.

00:19:09.944 --> 00:19:20.951
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Um, however, here it would be a lot of clay buildings, a lot of, clay straw composite things, using straw and lightweight timber to, to cover the, the roofs.

00:19:21.041 --> 00:19:25.858
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, actually I think my institute has done a lot of research in its early days.

00:19:25.888 --> 00:19:29.939
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I mean, we're talking 75 years ago, so, so that's quite old research.

00:19:29.939 --> 00:19:40.382
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But I think there was a lot of research on use of, of readily available natural materials in let's say some sort of, of, fairly safe, structural build.

00:19:40.902 --> 00:19:41.811
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Of the whole country.

00:19:41.902 --> 00:19:56.652
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, so I actually, I must go to the library of itb and, and second, it could be interesting to, to tap into the mind of, of researchers from mid fifties on how a similar problem was, was solved in, in, in middle of Europe.

00:19:56.701 --> 00:20:00.051
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>However, I think, I think Clay was one of the most popular materials

00:20:00.250 --> 00:20:00.733
<v Richard Walls>Yeah.

00:20:00.733 --> 00:20:06.534
<v Richard Walls>I think often the problem is the settlements are in cities, so we actually don't have access to those materials.

00:20:06.534 --> 00:20:10.013
<v Richard Walls>I mean, it's just an open piece of land, so you can't really mine very much.

00:20:10.013 --> 00:20:12.374
<v Richard Walls>And there's lack of support and just the

00:20:12.406 --> 00:20:12.957
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>No water

00:20:13.084 --> 00:20:13.574
<v Richard Walls>Yeah.

00:20:13.574 --> 00:20:17.663
<v Richard Walls>And then the, the speed the populations are growing at often just means that it, it.

00:20:17.663 --> 00:20:19.288
<v Richard Walls>It's very difficult to do it.

00:20:19.429 --> 00:20:27.722
<v Richard Walls>And some of it also comes from, there was a historical, back in 1994 when Mandela came to power, they said, All right, everyone will get a home.

00:20:27.893 --> 00:20:29.163
<v Richard Walls>Uh, which was great at the time.

00:20:29.163 --> 00:20:34.442
<v Richard Walls>I mean, it was a, it was a good effort, but the population grew too fast in some management issues and various other things.

00:20:34.732 --> 00:20:38.042
<v Richard Walls>So the idea wasn't, we're gonna upgrade in formal homes.

00:20:38.042 --> 00:20:40.363
<v Richard Walls>We're gonna build you formal homes and.

00:20:40.586 --> 00:20:44.736
<v Richard Walls>As the years have gone by policy, you can start seeing, is starting to change.

00:20:44.736 --> 00:20:51.336
<v Richard Walls>When there, there's the, it may not be written down, but this acknowledgement is, whoops, we're actually not keeping up and we're not going to get there.

00:20:51.336 --> 00:20:53.455
<v Richard Walls>We're not gonna be able to provide enough formal homes.

00:20:53.455 --> 00:20:57.096
<v Richard Walls>So how do we rather do upgrading of the informal?

00:20:57.597 --> 00:20:58.397
<v Richard Walls>to improve them.

00:20:58.397 --> 00:21:11.270
<v Richard Walls>So that, that is a subtle quality shift you're definitely seeing, and that's where these sorts of things can come in some amount of brick, better construction materials, at least, you know, concrete slab, that that can help to some extent as that is formalized.

00:21:11.270 --> 00:21:15.871
<v Richard Walls>But also in a bit of re blocking, rearranging homes, there's better layouts, bit of grid layouts, et cetera.

00:21:16.320 --> 00:21:21.750
<v Richard Walls>So that's definitely gonna be part of the solution in the coming years, but it's, it's not an easy process doing that.

00:21:21.778 --> 00:21:22.269
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay.

00:21:22.269 --> 00:21:25.628
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Now, uh, let's talk a little about fires in, in informal settlements.

00:21:26.048 --> 00:21:31.528
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You, you were guested at the NFPA podcast, and I'm gonna link to that episode where you gave really.

00:21:31.657 --> 00:21:37.394
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Illustrative description of, of how a fire in an informal settlement looks like.

00:21:37.394 --> 00:21:41.564
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I, I would, recommend everyone to, to take a listen on that one as well.

00:21:41.784 --> 00:21:44.420
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But let, let's give a mini version in here.

00:21:44.869 --> 00:21:47.450
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, what makes the fire so devastating?

00:21:47.450 --> 00:21:53.234
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like catastrophe, devastating, and, Under what conditions this fire turns.

00:21:53.934 --> 00:22:03.451
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You said you have an incidence with tens or hundreds of houses every now and then, and then two, three times a year, you would've a one that involves a few thousands.

00:22:03.902 --> 00:22:09.592
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, what makes this this growth from a 10 or hundreds to catastrophe size?

00:22:10.321 --> 00:22:13.669
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is it management like the local, conditions, weather?

00:22:14.351 --> 00:22:15.681
<v Richard Walls>A lot of things play into it.

00:22:15.681 --> 00:22:18.763
<v Richard Walls>Often it's, whether it's kind of like a, a, wildland fire.

00:22:18.773 --> 00:22:19.763
<v Richard Walls>At the end of the day.

00:22:19.763 --> 00:22:24.284
<v Richard Walls>You've got a continuous sprawl of fuel, and same thing with wildland fires.

00:22:24.284 --> 00:22:28.604
<v Richard Walls>When the wind gets beyond a certain stage, it's gonna push through that forest and burn it all down the.

00:22:29.088 --> 00:22:32.788
<v Richard Walls>The settlements do range in terms of resources for responses.

00:22:32.788 --> 00:22:34.548
<v Richard Walls>Some have better fire departments nearby.

00:22:34.548 --> 00:22:36.989
<v Richard Walls>Some have virtually non-existent fire departments.

00:22:37.088 --> 00:22:43.348
<v Richard Walls>The density ranges, so if you have dense settlements with poor access, that's where you've got the biggest headache.

00:22:43.348 --> 00:22:49.536
<v Richard Walls>Cause also, as I was mentioning earlier, most of the settlements are built out the way, so they have limited road infrastructure and access.

00:22:49.536 --> 00:22:52.415
<v Richard Walls>And then when a big incident starts happening, people evacuate.

00:22:52.465 --> 00:22:55.576
<v Richard Walls>So they're trying to save their beds and chairs and TVs.

00:22:55.861 --> 00:22:57.824
<v Richard Walls>Cars and whatever else there might be there.

00:22:57.824 --> 00:23:00.784
<v Richard Walls>And it blocks the road, so then the fire department can't even come in.

00:23:01.324 --> 00:23:06.784
<v Richard Walls>And when you've got lots of fuel all on top of each other, I mean, it just moves from one dwelling to the next to the next.

00:23:07.054 --> 00:23:11.584
<v Richard Walls>I mean, we didn't experiment with 20 full scale homes and all of them were a light in five minutes.

00:23:12.153 --> 00:23:14.544
<v Richard Walls>So it literally ripped straight through 20 homes, five minutes.

00:23:14.544 --> 00:23:15.263
<v Richard Walls>There you go.

00:23:15.683 --> 00:23:17.624
<v Richard Walls>And you see that it moves.

00:23:18.338 --> 00:23:18.939
<v Richard Walls>Frightening speed.

00:23:19.292 --> 00:23:23.333
<v Richard Walls>sometimes it'll hit, let's say if there's a bit of vegetation you might have branding.

00:23:23.625 --> 00:23:25.425
<v Richard Walls>we think branding occurs.

00:23:25.476 --> 00:23:36.385
<v Richard Walls>We think there must be, if you've got enough plastics and pretty much everything there, there must be some amount of brands being thrown, but that's never been quantified and we don't have a handle of how much it's influencing it.

00:23:36.766 --> 00:23:38.266
<v Richard Walls>But just flame impingement.

00:23:38.296 --> 00:23:42.266
<v Richard Walls>I mean, you have, when the homes are that close, you got flame impingement from one dwelling to the next.

00:23:43.226 --> 00:23:46.905
<v Richard Walls>Problem is, is the dwellings are permeable, so there's always a hole somewhere.

00:23:46.905 --> 00:23:50.705
<v Richard Walls>So there's always the, between the wall and the roof, there's a bit of a gap.

00:23:50.705 --> 00:23:57.586
<v Richard Walls>And then to stop winds, you stick a bit of newspaper or cardboard or nylon there, and then it catches and it sucks it into the home.

00:23:57.586 --> 00:23:58.105
<v Richard Walls>Flashover.

00:23:58.105 --> 00:23:58.865
<v Richard Walls>And then next one.

00:23:59.276 --> 00:24:04.026
<v Richard Walls>So small scale, it kind of looks like a whole bunch of little enclosure fires.

00:24:04.026 --> 00:24:07.226
<v Richard Walls>On a large scale, it looks like a, a wild land fire.

00:24:07.344 --> 00:24:13.896
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>with the 20 dwelling, You, you refer to the experiments in the project IRIS i, I  isn't that the paper that got Bigglestone Award?

00:24:13.903 --> 00:24:14.324
<v Richard Walls>Yep.

00:24:14.324 --> 00:24:14.644
<v Richard Walls>Yep.

00:24:14.644 --> 00:24:17.536
<v Richard Walls>Thankfully, uh, you, you reviewed it for us and,

00:24:17.545 --> 00:24:18.414
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>it was amazing.

00:24:18.484 --> 00:24:19.960
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I recommend that to everyone.

00:24:20.098 --> 00:24:25.108
<v Richard Walls>so yeah, that was, um, yeah, colleagues, colleague wrote and was part of it and done with, Edinburgh, et cetera.

00:24:25.278 --> 00:24:27.028
<v Richard Walls>So yeah, that was, that was frightening.

00:24:27.028 --> 00:24:31.992
<v Richard Walls>What it was even great is, you have to admit, even when you're wrong, we were like debating how long is this experiment gonna take?

00:24:31.992 --> 00:24:36.232
<v Richard Walls>And we're about to sit on fire, we're setting up, thinking, yeah, maybe 20 minutes or so.

00:24:36.423 --> 00:24:39.032
<v Richard Walls>Bang, banks hit a bump, experiment down five minutes.

00:24:39.211 --> 00:24:40.290
<v Richard Walls>Oops, that was quick.

00:24:40.461 --> 00:24:44.530
<v Richard Walls>Um, I think at 17 minutes there was one left standing.

00:24:44.631 --> 00:24:52.851
<v Richard Walls>And the funniest thing was we thought that was the, the home that was gonna get the toast, most roasted of, or timber dwelling on each side.

00:24:53.431 --> 00:24:58.971
<v Richard Walls>And, uh, what happened was is that the timber homes are around it burnt so ferociously, no air could get to it.

00:24:59.730 --> 00:25:00.770
<v Richard Walls>it was just crazy.

00:25:00.830 --> 00:25:03.330
<v Richard Walls>The, the, it was oxygen staff totally.

00:25:03.330 --> 00:25:07.971
<v Richard Walls>So it was the last home standing and we thought it was gonna be the one that was the most, uh,

00:25:08.588 --> 00:25:10.285
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And it, how, how was it propagating?

00:25:10.285 --> 00:25:12.005
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Was it like through radiation?

00:25:12.005 --> 00:25:13.565
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Through through convective heating,

00:25:13.607 --> 00:25:16.718
<v Richard Walls>it seems primarily flame contact, flame impingement.

00:25:16.968 --> 00:25:26.238
<v Richard Walls>Um, especially in that experiment from what we see, it is primarily flame dominated because you have a lot of flaming coming out of the big dwellings and a lot of.

00:25:26.452 --> 00:25:28.212
<v Richard Walls>Than exposed materials.

00:25:28.353 --> 00:25:33.848
<v Richard Walls>But it is hard to break up the balance between radiation ignition and not, There must be a combination.

00:25:33.878 --> 00:25:36.169
<v Richard Walls>I mean, there's always gonna be radiation at the same time.

00:25:36.169 --> 00:25:41.689
<v Richard Walls>The the items are, um, the flames impinging or you have preheating and then the flame ignites it.

00:25:41.939 --> 00:25:43.769
<v Richard Walls>So it's, it's between those two.

00:25:44.058 --> 00:25:47.169
<v Richard Walls>Um, as I said, there probably is some, some branding as well.

00:25:47.169 --> 00:25:59.093
<v Richard Walls>But if flame impingement appears, in my opinion, to dominate, the, the settlements are so complex and so many materials and so many different flames going in different directions that you would find exceptions to

00:25:59.115 --> 00:25:59.374
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay.

00:25:59.555 --> 00:26:07.354
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>but then again, If you could consider single ones from this experiment, uh, how long would one last, like two, three minutes,

00:26:07.391 --> 00:26:09.080
<v Richard Walls>Yeah, you're talking a couple of minutes.

00:26:09.090 --> 00:26:13.961
<v Richard Walls>So often you'll have collapse five minutes, 10 minutes after ignition, especially when it's like timber.

00:26:14.030 --> 00:26:18.800
<v Richard Walls>I mean, the panel's falling apart, but it, it depends in real settlements, how people have built.

00:26:18.800 --> 00:26:22.641
<v Richard Walls>Some people, man, they, they build really well, and those, those homes are solid.

00:26:22.641 --> 00:26:24.161
<v Richard Walls>They'll burn out, but they'll stay standing.

00:26:24.280 --> 00:26:28.340
<v Richard Walls>Other homes, I mean, People have put access to materials.

00:26:28.730 --> 00:26:30.661
<v Richard Walls>I mean, they'll fall apart within minutes.

00:26:31.201 --> 00:26:42.580
<v Richard Walls>And especially when someone, you've got a small dwelling, someone knocks over a para stove, you're talking a minute to flash over from ignition to maybe, you know, 2, 3, 4 minutes, depending on what's ignited first.

00:26:42.750 --> 00:26:43.661
<v Richard Walls>So it, it moves.

00:26:44.167 --> 00:26:45.376
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that are crazy times.

00:26:45.376 --> 00:26:47.250
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, I've been to some fires.

00:26:47.250 --> 00:26:49.410
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I've seen some exponentially growing fires.

00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:54.529
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I know what you're talking about that this, this bad way is growing a little quicker than we've expected.

00:26:55.789 --> 00:26:58.856
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You feel the heat and Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

00:26:58.926 --> 00:27:11.886
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Really interesting that this experiments, full scale experiments happen and, It, it's really nice that, that this research also happens when, where the problem is because it gives you like local comprehension of what the problem is.

00:27:11.886 --> 00:27:12.926
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You, you see it every day.

00:27:12.926 --> 00:27:20.713
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's not, uh, a fancy university from overseas doing, uh, research under polished campus and, doing this, building a going to.

00:27:20.989 --> 00:27:46.511
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Castorama, whatever shops, building shops you have, buying a bunch of good materials and wondering, this doesn't burn that badly as they, as they said, actually, I liked it a lot Now, um, Before we've talked, you've mentioned that, you have worked on a project to deliver some guidance related to building a more fire, safe, uh, environment in this type of, of, of dwelling.

00:27:46.511 --> 00:27:48.192
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, so maybe let's venture there.

00:27:48.372 --> 00:27:50.432
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How, how does this work started?

00:27:50.672 --> 00:27:53.991
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like whose initiative was that and who paid for that?

00:27:53.991 --> 00:27:55.192
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's actually quite interesting.

00:27:55.479 --> 00:27:56.788
<v Richard Walls>so, well, a couple of things.

00:27:56.788 --> 00:28:04.742
<v Richard Walls>So following Iris, I mean we had a project with University Edinburgh, so various work done together collaboratively and then, projects along the way.

00:28:04.972 --> 00:28:18.262
<v Richard Walls>Then our Department of Human Settlements, the Western cap upon museum, government department, they approached us and well, from a relationship, they said, Well, could we provide some guidance to help address the fire safety of these homes?

00:28:18.262 --> 00:28:19.583
<v Richard Walls>Cause it's an ongoing challenge.

00:28:20.163 --> 00:28:33.387
<v Richard Walls>And so, We started and then started putting together and eventually actually became a book that wasn't the, the option at the beginning, but we published a book, it's a fire safety engineering guideline for formal settlements, and we decided to release it free of charge.

00:28:33.630 --> 00:28:35.480
<v Richard Walls>but to make the project possible.

00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:41.280
<v Richard Walls>At that time we also had funding from the Lloyd's Register Foundation, so we used that as co-funding to make it possible.

00:28:41.621 --> 00:28:43.520
<v Richard Walls>The first phase then was a full book.

00:28:43.520 --> 00:28:48.538
<v Richard Walls>Hundred and 30 pages are results from various, experiments and analyses and all sorts.

00:28:48.718 --> 00:28:52.317
<v Richard Walls>Put in one place, but it's written for practitioners, NGOs, et cetera.

00:28:52.317 --> 00:28:53.958
<v Richard Walls>It's not a fire science textbook.

00:28:54.223 --> 00:29:02.817
<v Richard Walls>and then there was a second phase, which has just been wrapped up, and it's gonna be launched shortly with training videos, brochures and posters.

00:29:02.817 --> 00:29:04.337
<v Richard Walls>So it's a range of training materials.

00:29:04.337 --> 00:29:05.298
<v Richard Walls>Once again, everything free.

00:29:05.667 --> 00:29:09.978
<v Richard Walls>Uh, same also funded by the Waste and Cape Department of Human Settlements and the Lloyds Register.

00:29:10.548 --> 00:29:17.782
<v Richard Walls>So they, that is going to be, Imminently any day now, probably early next year, South Africa shuts down like totally over December.

00:29:17.782 --> 00:29:18.623
<v Richard Walls>Nothing happens then.

00:29:19.395 --> 00:29:22.365
<v Richard Walls>it's, it's it's Christmas and it's our summer holidays.

00:29:22.375 --> 00:29:23.086
<v Richard Walls>So, Uh.

00:29:23.086 --> 00:29:24.486
<v Richard Walls>it's, it's the same thing as July.

00:29:24.486 --> 00:29:35.816
<v Richard Walls>And in Europe or August, So that'll be, be out shortly with a, um, excellent, uh, photographer or, um, videographer, Justin Sullivan, who has real life footage in settlements from when they're burning.

00:29:36.026 --> 00:29:41.016
<v Richard Walls>So the images you see are, they are frightening when you actually see people running around homes burning Yeah.

00:29:41.326 --> 00:29:43.496
<v Richard Walls>Real incidents and what's happening.

00:29:43.496 --> 00:29:46.472
<v Richard Walls>And that's used to tell the story and, develop the training.

00:29:47.065 --> 00:29:54.765
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>it's brilliant idea that you not only settle on a book, but go with, uh, videos, instruction material that, that will make the book alive.

00:29:54.765 --> 00:29:56.765
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That, that will make the book, book go on.

00:29:57.174 --> 00:30:02.019
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, please introduce me like to, to this framework, uh, like where does even one start?

00:30:02.019 --> 00:30:03.659
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>When, when they want to, to make.

00:30:04.015 --> 00:30:07.204
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>An effect on, on local community or, or want to help.

00:30:07.532 --> 00:30:13.066
<v Richard Walls>I think one of the first things is that people think fire safety is about some silver bullet.

00:30:13.256 --> 00:30:14.865
<v Richard Walls>That there's some magical thing.

00:30:14.915 --> 00:30:22.346
<v Richard Walls>If I issue gadget A paint B layout C to the community, we can make fire problems go away.

00:30:22.346 --> 00:30:29.546
<v Richard Walls>And I think the biggest message we're trying to communicate is what fire safety codes have been saying all along, but they've just never said it.

00:30:29.546 --> 00:30:33.705
<v Richard Walls>To inform settlements is this is not a quick fix, this is not, You can walk in.

00:30:34.685 --> 00:30:36.435
<v Richard Walls>Do one thing, walk away, and it's done.

00:30:36.806 --> 00:30:43.316
<v Richard Walls>It requires a holistic, ongoing, intensive effort to reduce the number of incidents.

00:30:43.405 --> 00:30:47.796
<v Richard Walls>So we can't take a hundred fires and suddenly have zero fires.

00:30:47.796 --> 00:30:50.276
<v Richard Walls>We can maybe take a hundred fires in our 50, 50 years.

00:30:50.276 --> 00:30:52.395
<v Richard Walls>We're still way too high, but hey, it's least it's not a hundred.

00:30:52.806 --> 00:30:58.173
<v Richard Walls>So the idea is, how do we start tackling multiple aspects and.

00:30:58.219 --> 00:31:03.019
<v Richard Walls>Guidelines are provided regarding looking at all the different aspects you face, whether it's risk of ignition.

00:31:03.019 --> 00:31:06.459
<v Richard Walls>Now what are, what is causing the fires and how do we start reducing that?

00:31:06.459 --> 00:31:07.459
<v Richard Walls>How do the fire spread?

00:31:07.459 --> 00:31:09.618
<v Richard Walls>So how can we improve construction materials?

00:31:09.971 --> 00:31:11.026
<v Richard Walls>what products do we use?

00:31:11.155 --> 00:31:13.066
<v Richard Walls>Layouts, What sort of safety distances?

00:31:13.451 --> 00:31:15.921
<v Richard Walls>In reality often can't get those safety distances.

00:31:15.921 --> 00:31:16.840
<v Richard Walls>They're just too many people.

00:31:17.381 --> 00:31:20.040
<v Richard Walls>But if you can, where should you put them?

00:31:20.040 --> 00:31:29.000
<v Richard Walls>I mean, we were in a community last week and working with the community, looking at re blocking, literally moving little blocks around a community saying, Okay, where, What safety distances do we have?

00:31:29.580 --> 00:31:30.000
<v Richard Walls>And.

00:31:30.428 --> 00:31:40.317
<v Richard Walls>Then just realizing it's an ongoing effort from many people, and I suppose a different perspective is what a friend once described her job as is.

00:31:40.317 --> 00:31:45.557
<v Richard Walls>Sometimes we can just be a hand break on stupidity in that if all we do is stop.

00:31:46.028 --> 00:31:47.647
<v Richard Walls>Bad solutions from happening.

00:31:47.647 --> 00:31:53.167
<v Richard Walls>I think it's a step forward because a big incident happens, The politicians are under pressure.

00:31:53.298 --> 00:32:01.243
<v Richard Walls>So a great salesman arrive, sells the gadget you know, a ball that you throw in and explodes and Hey, it's gonna put out the fire.

00:32:01.243 --> 00:32:02.163
<v Richard Walls>And we test them.

00:32:02.163 --> 00:32:02.763
<v Richard Walls>Like, no, it's not.

00:32:03.253 --> 00:32:11.564
<v Richard Walls>So, even if it's just stopping bad interventions because it's, it's rife with bad interventions and quick fixes, so, well, no, that's not gonna fix it.

00:32:11.564 --> 00:32:12.243
<v Richard Walls>But hey, let's.

00:32:12.344 --> 00:32:15.584
<v Richard Walls>Put a little bit of more effort into the water infrastructure, into homes.

00:32:15.953 --> 00:32:22.344
<v Richard Walls>If we are gonna get smoke detector devices or P detector devices, which homes should they go into?

00:32:22.344 --> 00:32:25.624
<v Richard Walls>Let's target the high risk community homes, the dense settlements.

00:32:25.993 --> 00:32:30.584
<v Richard Walls>So big picture, putting it all together and slowly working at it.

00:32:30.584 --> 00:32:32.663
<v Richard Walls>And also building relationship with the fire department.

00:32:32.663 --> 00:32:34.023
<v Richard Walls>The fire department are key.

00:32:34.213 --> 00:32:35.624
<v Richard Walls>They arrive and they get stone.

00:32:35.733 --> 00:32:39.413
<v Richard Walls>Bricks because of a whole bunch of things we can maybe chat about just now.

00:32:39.413 --> 00:32:40.534
<v Richard Walls>It's, it's a bit of a mess.

00:32:40.534 --> 00:32:47.614
<v Richard Walls>And often it's not something they've done wrong, but it's just perceptions about who they are, what they do, and yeah, no, you're not giving us enough.

00:32:48.019 --> 00:32:48.689
<v Richard Walls>Service.

00:32:49.019 --> 00:32:53.249
<v Richard Walls>So the, it's a range of things, but I'd say it's, it's a basket of interventions.

00:32:53.249 --> 00:32:55.689
<v Richard Walls>It's not one thing and it's not quick, it's not cheap.

00:32:56.056 --> 00:32:58.596
<v Richard Walls>and it's often symptoms of other issues.

00:32:58.605 --> 00:33:02.635
<v Richard Walls>So can fire be part of the conversation when we're gonna upgrade homes?

00:33:02.635 --> 00:33:14.058
<v Richard Walls>Can fire be part of the conversation when, Workers go into the community to provide water, to provide electrical infrastructure, to look into the high risk homes, and identify, oh, you know, here's a home with al alcoholism.

00:33:14.058 --> 00:33:14.979
<v Richard Walls>Where's a big issue?

00:33:14.979 --> 00:33:19.298
<v Richard Walls>Maybe that's the home that should get the first detector devices, if we are gonna put those in.

00:33:19.388 --> 00:33:22.298
<v Richard Walls>So those are sort of things that we can start looking towards.

00:33:22.779 --> 00:33:26.913
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, to what extent the, I don't know even who city, the society.

00:33:27.364 --> 00:33:30.604
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Works on, on improving the conditions in the settlements.

00:33:30.604 --> 00:33:38.794
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like, like would the city put in, I dunno, a new pipes, a new electrical line that's underground and to, to help fix the issue?

00:33:39.064 --> 00:33:44.906
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I guess Then that's when you can re intervene, Maybe try to change the density, try to build some separations.

00:33:45.676 --> 00:33:47.067
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is, is this how you intervene?

00:33:47.376 --> 00:33:48.006
<v Richard Walls>it depends.

00:33:48.006 --> 00:33:51.365
<v Richard Walls>Cause I think you make a very good point is who, who's involved.

00:33:51.365 --> 00:33:54.006
<v Richard Walls>And one of the problems is multiple groups are involved.

00:33:54.006 --> 00:33:59.846
<v Richard Walls>For instance, you have the Department of Human Settlements who overseas, but then you've got Department of Water and Sanitation.

00:33:59.846 --> 00:34:00.965
<v Richard Walls>It provides water infrastructure.

00:34:00.965 --> 00:34:04.086
<v Richard Walls>You've got electrical supply, you have, um, health.

00:34:04.336 --> 00:34:04.965
<v Richard Walls>So you have.

00:34:05.421 --> 00:34:14.257
<v Richard Walls>A whole bunch of groups, including communities, and often we kind of miss, we think of this community as this homogenous, all think the same, all do the thing, which is not true.

00:34:14.257 --> 00:34:17.338
<v Richard Walls>I mean, the, the communities are just like you and me.

00:34:17.438 --> 00:34:20.657
<v Richard Walls>You know, I vote for you A, and you vote for B and we don't get along.

00:34:20.657 --> 00:34:24.777
<v Richard Walls>And I'm trying to get my political party now to be the representative so we don't get along.

00:34:25.237 --> 00:34:29.137
<v Richard Walls>And that influences community cohesion and approaches.

00:34:29.547 --> 00:34:31.458
<v Richard Walls>So many groups involved.

00:34:32.806 --> 00:34:39.172
<v Richard Walls>Normally it comes more from your department, human settlements, et cetera, the upgrading, but it, it requires multiple people involved.

00:34:39.172 --> 00:34:43.452
<v Richard Walls>So that's one of, well, one of the big problems, it's everyone's problem and no one's problem all at once.

00:34:44.182 --> 00:34:49.612
<v Richard Walls>So it's kinda like, Hey, well it's not exactly my problem, so I'm gonna leave it for the fire department cause it's a fire thing.

00:34:49.612 --> 00:34:50.532
<v Richard Walls>So they must fall in this.

00:34:50.668 --> 00:35:00.338
<v Richard Walls>Fight upon, Well, it's spreads so much because it's a home problem, so it's someone else's, it falls between multiple groups, which makes it more difficult to address and slower to address.

00:35:00.708 --> 00:35:03.577
<v Richard Walls>So that, that's gonna be an ongoing problem we have for forevermore.

00:35:03.971 --> 00:35:07.528
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>who, who's the target that you would like to aim with with this knowledge?

00:35:07.798 --> 00:35:11.021
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I mean, is it an individual, owner of a, a household?

00:35:11.351 --> 00:35:12.942
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is it the local authorities?

00:35:12.942 --> 00:35:14.181
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is it the fire department?

00:35:14.528 --> 00:35:19.355
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>if one in a hundred people redesigned their settlement to, to become safer?

00:35:20.610 --> 00:35:24.780
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This does not, this is your houses that stood after an experiment.

00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:26.980
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You know, it's, it doesn't change the landscape.

00:35:27.195 --> 00:35:36.434
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Then again, uh, if an authority goes and would say, I have to rebuild a square kilometer of, of city infrastructure, roads, uh, water, electricity.

00:35:37.048 --> 00:35:39.768
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There's no money to, to do that on that scale.

00:35:39.898 --> 00:35:47.418
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So which quarter I'm gonna start with, and once they start their probably d density will dramatically increase in that area.

00:35:47.418 --> 00:35:49.539
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Then firefighters with their challenges.

00:35:49.539 --> 00:35:55.655
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So that, that's, Wow, that's a, that's a hell of, political landmine fields, to, to navigate.

00:35:56.248 --> 00:36:01.438
<v Richard Walls>If in terms of targeting, what I'm hoping is that the work we've produced will influence different groups.

00:36:01.438 --> 00:36:14.393
<v Richard Walls>Firstly, as I said, Your government departments, human settlements, water and sanitation, et cetera, NGOs, there's a lot of non-governmental organizations, churches, different groups, active in communities, and they're not fire trained.

00:36:14.393 --> 00:36:22.233
<v Richard Walls>But hey, if there's some basic things that they can at least think, gee, maybe putting a spray on polyurethane on people's walls is a bad idea cause that has been done.

00:36:22.724 --> 00:36:26.273
<v Richard Walls>So, you know, let's, let's spray on basically petrol on people's walls and see what happens.

00:36:26.804 --> 00:36:31.695
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>A petrol petrol that produces cyanide when burns a better kind of petrol.

00:36:31.735 --> 00:36:35.009
<v Richard Walls>I, we literally had this conversation with a, uh, an organization.

00:36:35.009 --> 00:36:37.168
<v Richard Walls>They were doing it to offset carbon emissions.

00:36:37.168 --> 00:36:40.608
<v Richard Walls>So they were insulating people's homes and they had a spray on polyurethane.

00:36:40.978 --> 00:36:43.358
<v Richard Walls>And as they said, I was like, Wow, this is a bad idea.

00:36:43.539 --> 00:36:47.762
<v Richard Walls>And, uh, the thing is, there's often no testing because it's a deal system.

00:36:47.762 --> 00:36:48.402
<v Richard Walls>You have.

00:36:49.353 --> 00:36:51.563
<v Richard Walls>Informal is, is inherently informal.

00:36:51.563 --> 00:36:55.202
<v Richard Walls>There's no testing and no requirements to roll out something in a settlement.

00:36:55.452 --> 00:37:00.163
<v Richard Walls>It, and you also, you can't develop a dual standard system.

00:37:00.543 --> 00:37:04.083
<v Richard Walls>You can't say, okay, formal homes require the following standards.

00:37:04.222 --> 00:37:07.123
<v Richard Walls>Hey, now we've got the second code for informal settlements.

00:37:07.123 --> 00:37:13.436
<v Richard Walls>So it's like a subclass, because then you're actually saying it's okay to have substandard safety.

00:37:13.719 --> 00:37:14.666
<v Richard Walls>Which doesn't exist.

00:37:14.666 --> 00:37:22.188
<v Richard Walls>So either it's everything or nothings developing something in between is virtually impossible because then it, it calls into question the entire code.

00:37:22.652 --> 00:37:24.501
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>From the low framework perspective.

00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:25.018
<v Richard Walls>Yep.

00:37:25.108 --> 00:37:26.018
<v Richard Walls>So that, that's why

00:37:26.242 --> 00:37:32.802
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>but then again, you said that, uh, you know, you cannot solve a hundred out of a hundred fires, but even if you solve like 50, that's

00:37:32.818 --> 00:37:36.429
<v Richard Walls>Yeah, that's why we intentionally call our work guidelines.

00:37:36.429 --> 00:37:41.822
<v Richard Walls>You can't actually call it a code or a standard because it can't be a dual running, code environment.

00:37:41.822 --> 00:37:46.143
<v Richard Walls>And people have proposed, Hey, let's have a code for testing such and so like, nope, not gonna work.

00:37:46.143 --> 00:37:50.543
<v Richard Walls>You can at least have a guideline like, Hey, testing this is, and you get such and results.

00:37:51.068 --> 00:37:51.978
<v Richard Walls>Is is bad.

00:37:52.228 --> 00:38:00.943
<v Richard Walls>We had discussions with guys working in Bangladesh on the ground, doing excellent work in Cox's Baar, and they said, We've been issued the following material.

00:38:01.364 --> 00:38:02.704
<v Richard Walls>How can we test it?

00:38:02.753 --> 00:38:11.833
<v Richard Walls>We don't have a standard that it has to adhere to, but we gave them some guidelines, us and, Jim Milke from Maryland, some details went through and they sent us videos and they did some excellent work.

00:38:11.884 --> 00:38:13.994
<v Richard Walls>Um, Paul Chamberlain and the guys on the ground there.

00:38:14.684 --> 00:38:18.873
<v Richard Walls>It was just some quick testing and went, Wow, this is probably as worse than we thought.

00:38:19.083 --> 00:38:21.393
<v Richard Walls>It didn't fail the test, cuz there isn't a test.

00:38:21.393 --> 00:38:27.353
<v Richard Walls>But at least they could go to the decision makers and say, Guys, this we're, we're looking at problem we're putting in sheeting.

00:38:27.353 --> 00:38:28.273
<v Richard Walls>That is combustible.

00:38:28.273 --> 00:38:29.713
<v Richard Walls>It's got hydrocarbons in.

00:38:29.784 --> 00:38:31.114
<v Richard Walls>Look at the flame spread.

00:38:31.574 --> 00:38:32.273
<v Richard Walls>Bad idea.

00:38:32.273 --> 00:38:33.353
<v Richard Walls>Can we reconsider?

00:38:33.563 --> 00:38:44.594
<v Richard Walls>So those are the sort of things that at least if the work can have some impact in advising on what is probably a per choice of materials, per choice of devices as it also, I mean, throwing devices.

00:38:44.594 --> 00:38:45.233
<v Richard Walls>It was great.

00:38:45.233 --> 00:38:46.954
<v Richard Walls>I mean, a company was selling these little.

00:38:47.936 --> 00:38:51.786
<v Richard Walls>little ball, you throw it in, it's got a dry chemical powder and basically blows up.

00:38:52.286 --> 00:38:55.565
<v Richard Walls>And, I mean, I've seen them, They, they look great on the internet, man.

00:38:55.565 --> 00:38:58.166
<v Richard Walls>You throw it into a little contained box and bang, the fire's gone.

00:38:58.186 --> 00:39:00.005
<v Richard Walls>And so we did, we built a full scale home.

00:39:00.005 --> 00:39:04.565
<v Richard Walls>We threw in 10 of these things and it didn't even vaguely put out the fire cause we'd knock it locally.

00:39:04.565 --> 00:39:10.565
<v Richard Walls>Everything was above spontaneous ignition, so the fire just kept coming back and, and stuff like that at.

00:39:10.907 --> 00:39:15.307
<v Richard Walls>Shows to decision makers that that may not be effective for what we want.

00:39:15.447 --> 00:39:26.068
<v Richard Walls>For a small fire, when you've got really good aim where you can throw like a baseball player, you know that, that's fine, but if you're under pressure and you miss and it's a big fire, you're, you're basically wasting your money.

00:39:26.068 --> 00:39:30.588
<v Richard Walls>So that's where we're hoping the guidelines have impact, that it can inform.

00:39:31.208 --> 00:39:35.628
<v Richard Walls>Any decision about fire safety devices, decisions, layouts, et cetera.

00:39:35.688 --> 00:39:37.427
<v Richard Walls>But it's not gonna be a miraculous thing.

00:39:37.427 --> 00:39:42.385
<v Richard Walls>It's not gonna happen quickly, and any impact is at least more than than we used to have.

00:39:42.514 --> 00:39:43.623
<v Richard Walls>Um, that that's our hope.

00:39:43.876 --> 00:39:51.798
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>now, now you started talking about fire brigade and the challenges, they face like How, how big is the possibilities on the intervention side?

00:39:51.798 --> 00:40:01.889
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like to what extent you can even intervene in there uh, like if I, my house was burning, I would expect 15 minutes later there's a fire department at my house.

00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:08.208
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>30 minutes into the event, it should be under control because they already have water inside.

00:40:08.208 --> 00:40:12.208
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They have recognition sounds that they know what's happening around that.

00:40:12.208 --> 00:40:13.009
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's what I would.

00:40:13.684 --> 00:40:23.914
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In here, I guess the expectation in an informal layout, like to start even with, to what extent they know the layout of the, of the informal settlement, because it's, it's live, right?

00:40:23.996 --> 00:40:25.306
<v Richard Walls>So there, there are a couple of things.

00:40:25.306 --> 00:40:32.266
<v Richard Walls>Firstly, one of the big headaches, and I'm hoping our country can fix it soon, is we don't have a unified 9 1 1 number.

00:40:32.876 --> 00:40:40.900
<v Richard Walls>So, There's actually a 10 digit number you're supposed to call, for instance, uh, for Cape Town oh 2 1 4 8 0 7 oh.

00:40:40.900 --> 00:40:44.661
<v Richard Walls>And if I asked you to repeat that number to me now, you wouldn't be able to repeat what I just said.

00:40:45.393 --> 00:40:48.150
<v Richard Walls>so most people don't know the fire department number.

00:40:48.150 --> 00:40:52.351
<v Richard Walls>There is a shorter version, but sometimes that doesn't work for, from cellular phones.

00:40:53.740 --> 00:41:01.590
<v Richard Walls>A regular headache we have is people phone the police, then the police are obliged to go out, investigate it and relay it to the fire department.

00:41:01.590 --> 00:41:03.751
<v Richard Walls>So that may add 15 minutes or 20 minutes.

00:41:04.210 --> 00:41:09.110
<v Richard Walls>And so that is something that we have to solve from government level, a unified.

00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:12.360
<v Richard Walls>Call out number independent of that, then Yes.

00:41:12.380 --> 00:41:14.840
<v Richard Walls>Are some fire departments are very good.

00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:17.001
<v Richard Walls>They respond quickly, they're well trained.

00:41:17.115 --> 00:41:19.494
<v Richard Walls>Um, they lack resources, but they're really doing a good job.

00:41:19.494 --> 00:41:23.653
<v Richard Walls>I mean, I've been very impressed with a lot of what city of Cape Town, Brita Valley are, are doing.

00:41:23.974 --> 00:41:28.134
<v Richard Walls>Other cities, they have six fire trucks for population with a few million.

00:41:28.590 --> 00:41:32.244
<v Richard Walls>it's frightening the, the level of, services that they're able to offer.

00:41:32.849 --> 00:41:45.858
<v Richard Walls>When they arrive, the timeline looks a little different because normally you arrive at an address, but imagine you get called out to a settlement and you can see the fire in the distance maybe, but you like, How on earth do I even get there?

00:41:45.909 --> 00:41:49.179
<v Richard Walls>Because sometimes there isn't formal infrastructure to get there.

00:41:49.548 --> 00:41:55.099
<v Richard Walls>If now also the community phone, the police department, the police department came, You are now.

00:41:55.329 --> 00:42:01.489
<v Richard Walls>30 minutes late, you may be three minutes from call out, but you're 30 minutes late according to the community.

00:42:01.498 --> 00:42:09.409
<v Richard Walls>So they start throwing rocks at you and now you're trying to defend yourself from the community and you know, run hoses and you can't find the hydrants.

00:42:09.438 --> 00:42:14.648
<v Richard Walls>Then you're trying to get the trucks in and you've got low hanging electrical lines.

00:42:14.648 --> 00:42:19.409
<v Richard Walls>You actually can't get your truck through or you just have to drive through electrical lines and hope you don't electrocute yourself.

00:42:19.949 --> 00:42:22.628
<v Richard Walls>And then, You set up your hoses.

00:42:22.628 --> 00:42:33.548
<v Richard Walls>You ran your hoses, and a big challenge they find is that people are desperate and so they see a hose, but the fire department is strategically putting out fires, but not your home.

00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:36.373
<v Richard Walls>My home's burning, but they're putting out a home Two away.

00:42:36.643 --> 00:42:38.773
<v Richard Walls>I see the, see the hose, I've got a knife.

00:42:38.773 --> 00:42:40.172
<v Richard Walls>I wanna save everything I own.

00:42:40.172 --> 00:42:43.293
<v Richard Walls>So I slash the hose and I turn the hose onto my dwelling.

00:42:43.402 --> 00:42:45.132
<v Richard Walls>Suddenly the water is everywhere.

00:42:45.132 --> 00:42:47.213
<v Richard Walls>You drain the tanker, it's a total mess.

00:42:47.213 --> 00:42:48.492
<v Richard Walls>You gotta run new hoses.

00:42:48.782 --> 00:42:54.213
<v Richard Walls>So cutting of hoses is a big deal, and it appears, it's mainly just out of desperation.

00:42:54.492 --> 00:42:56.172
<v Richard Walls>There's, there's no data on it.

00:42:57.362 --> 00:43:07.293
<v Richard Walls>I mean, I saw a very interesting one further just in terms of life safety that a colleague of mine, or friend of mine is a firefighter, and we've recently had a lot of blackouts in the country.

00:43:07.463 --> 00:43:12.778
<v Richard Walls>So a entrepreneurial community resident was selling gas bottles into the community.

00:43:12.869 --> 00:43:13.778
<v Richard Walls>So they had about.

00:43:14.501 --> 00:43:23.344
<v Richard Walls>20 LP gas bottles in their home and that home caught fire and I have pictures of the home afterwards.

00:43:23.614 --> 00:43:26.304
<v Richard Walls>I am amazed that it didn't level the whole area.

00:43:26.434 --> 00:43:29.143
<v Richard Walls>Somehow the, emergency relief valves must have.

00:43:29.414 --> 00:43:30.264
<v Richard Walls>Been triggered.

00:43:30.264 --> 00:43:31.784
<v Richard Walls>I mean, somehow they didn't detonate.

00:43:31.784 --> 00:43:35.143
<v Richard Walls>Cause I've seen other incidents where the LP gas is detonated and it's frightening.

00:43:35.563 --> 00:43:45.583
<v Richard Walls>And, but that's the sort of thing the fire department may have to respond to when you've got 20 LP gas cylinders in one home, nos burning, you probably don't even know this when you arrive and you're fighting it and then suddenly, boom.

00:43:46.114 --> 00:43:49.623
<v Richard Walls>Um, it, it's a real safety challenge.

00:43:49.844 --> 00:43:54.983
<v Richard Walls>And then you have homes collapsing onto you and yeah, you name it, it, it goes.

00:43:55.313 --> 00:44:08.079
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and you, if you put it in, into the, context of your experiment with 20 dwellings, with this extreme fire spread, I mean the fire may be like three blocks away when, when you arrive, when it's, uh, when it's really a really bad day.

00:44:08.728 --> 00:44:13.501
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, in, in such a fire, I guess the extinguishing is, is option anymore.

00:44:13.608 --> 00:44:20.298
<v Richard Walls>Yeah, you, you're trying to contain, So I mean they just on the, if they can get hose lines to it, they can normally do a lot of damage.

00:44:20.298 --> 00:44:20.818
<v Richard Walls>Cause there are.

00:44:21.068 --> 00:44:26.588
<v Richard Walls>They are enclosures, but it, it just is the question of can they get enough hose lines close enough?

00:44:26.608 --> 00:44:30.869
<v Richard Walls>And if you've got a winding settlement, it can spread around you or can jump.

00:44:30.898 --> 00:44:34.228
<v Richard Walls>I, that's a, it's something we want to study is the branding issue.

00:44:34.688 --> 00:44:36.548
<v Richard Walls>And it, it definitely does jump.

00:44:36.548 --> 00:44:42.628
<v Richard Walls>We're just not sure how much, And then, then you're chasing the fire or it's, it's on both sides, you and around you.

00:44:42.628 --> 00:44:44.346
<v Richard Walls>So, the fire department does a good job.

00:44:44.346 --> 00:44:48.905
<v Richard Walls>They can kill the fire, but getting there and access is a huge.

00:44:49.880 --> 00:45:04.081
<v Richard Walls>And so roadways, accessways are, are important and they get blocked, but you do have anecdotal cases where the community helps in, in multon there's one in, in an area called Noon, there's one community that's.

00:45:04.425 --> 00:45:05.545
<v Richard Walls>Particularly proactive.

00:45:05.545 --> 00:45:06.585
<v Richard Walls>There's a leader there.

00:45:06.695 --> 00:45:10.065
<v Richard Walls>When a fire breaks out, she makes sure that they clear the road.

00:45:10.326 --> 00:45:14.865
<v Richard Walls>And so actually moving people's possessions out the way to make sure the fire truck can get in.

00:45:14.865 --> 00:45:16.106
<v Richard Walls>And that is a huge thing.

00:45:16.516 --> 00:45:22.675
<v Richard Walls>it might sound really simple, but it, it could result in many more homes being saved if the firer can actually get access.

00:45:23.056 --> 00:45:31.835
<v Richard Walls>And, and, cause I mean, people are desperate if, if you're trying to save everything you, and you're not really worried about the track access, but at least if there are enough people around and they move stuff it.

00:45:32.202 --> 00:45:37.641
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and sharing good experiences, as this, is it even possible between the, the communities?

00:45:37.777 --> 00:45:45.257
<v Richard Walls>it can be, and I think that's gonna be an important aspect, central aspect going forward is that community engagement.

00:45:45.257 --> 00:45:51.217
<v Richard Walls>There needs to be budget allocated for people to be ongoing in the community training, doing work.

00:45:51.568 --> 00:45:53.737
<v Richard Walls>I, I really wanna build a little mobile.

00:45:54.161 --> 00:46:01.257
<v Richard Walls>Dwelling that the, fire department can arrive, take it off the truck, burn it down with the community around, engage with them, train with them, and then leave.

00:46:01.268 --> 00:46:03.057
<v Richard Walls>If you leave it there, it'll get stolen normally.

00:46:03.289 --> 00:46:03.900
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Mm-hmm.

00:46:04.137 --> 00:46:05.818
<v Richard Walls>actually have to do some mobile fire training.

00:46:06.039 --> 00:46:06.199
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>it.

00:46:06.199 --> 00:46:06.639
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Burn it.

00:46:06.639 --> 00:46:07.800
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>before his stolen

00:46:08.077 --> 00:46:09.157
<v Richard Walls>and then, and then you pick it up.

00:46:09.157 --> 00:46:10.438
<v Richard Walls>You make it a steel frame, take it away.

00:46:10.777 --> 00:46:11.057
<v Richard Walls>so.

00:46:11.485 --> 00:46:18.766
<v Richard Walls>Community engagement will always be key, but also it's not something quick because communities change, people come, people go.

00:46:19.505 --> 00:46:21.005
<v Richard Walls>The more that's done the better.

00:46:21.005 --> 00:46:25.326
<v Richard Walls>And once again, our target is from a hundred fires to 50 fires, not a hundred to zero.

00:46:25.333 --> 00:46:27.456
<v Richard Walls>or any reduction in damage we can do is, is

00:46:28.360 --> 00:46:32.101
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think that's a powerful way out this, maybe not the way completely out, but.

00:46:32.110 --> 00:46:34.793
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Towards, a better solution, better environment.

00:46:35.356 --> 00:46:38.157
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>now for the end, I, I had Danielle in, in here.

00:46:38.157 --> 00:46:45.197
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We were talking a lot about NGOs and what can be done, how they engage, and I absolutely love the work that they are doing.

00:46:45.777 --> 00:46:50.476
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You as a scientist, how, how do you see like the research gaps?

00:46:50.476 --> 00:46:51.556
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like where can.

00:46:51.867 --> 00:46:57.929
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Fire science, fire, academia come in and, what would be the most important research gap you see?

00:46:58.331 --> 00:47:03.072
<v Richard Walls>the, the the most important people are those making the difference on the ground.

00:47:03.454 --> 00:47:09.204
<v Richard Walls>Be it the NGOs, be it the Fire Departments, Department of Human Settlements, they're, they're really important.

00:47:09.827 --> 00:47:16.677
<v Richard Walls>I sitting in my office, in my university ivory tower, it's very difficult to make a direct impact.

00:47:16.677 --> 00:47:17.797
<v Richard Walls>However, the.

00:47:18.126 --> 00:47:23.277
<v Richard Walls>If we can provide the tools they need for simple assessments, cuz people aren't trained in fire safety.

00:47:23.407 --> 00:47:30.637
<v Richard Walls>So just working with a community, um, NGO last week and I I, they're like, Oh, what distance must we put these homes in?

00:47:30.637 --> 00:47:32.117
<v Richard Walls>I was like, well, nothing really.

00:47:32.266 --> 00:47:39.036
<v Richard Walls>It's always gonna jump eventually, but, you know, one meter, it'll always spread two meters in most cases spread by three meters.

00:47:39.467 --> 00:47:44.516
<v Richard Walls>You're starting to get to a stage where you might have have stopped at four meters probably.

00:47:45.652 --> 00:47:53.784
<v Richard Walls>Tools to help the important people, is where I think the research will be valuable and assessing any intervention.

00:47:53.835 --> 00:47:57.385
<v Richard Walls>So that's why one of the papers we did was assessing suppression methods.

00:47:57.385 --> 00:47:59.505
<v Richard Walls>What happens if we have these throwing gadgets?

00:47:59.505 --> 00:48:00.105
<v Richard Walls>How do they work?

00:48:00.105 --> 00:48:01.025
<v Richard Walls>How do they not work?

00:48:01.315 --> 00:48:04.425
<v Richard Walls>If we have detected devices, what's the limitations of them?

00:48:04.934 --> 00:48:12.001
<v Richard Walls>Nuisance alarms, rollouts, sensitivities, artificial intelligence, building those in, uh, GIS mapping risk assessment.

00:48:12.052 --> 00:48:13.802
<v Richard Walls>So it's, it's providing.

00:48:14.806 --> 00:48:16.637
<v Richard Walls>To the people that matter most.

00:48:16.827 --> 00:48:33.197
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I also think this, what you said about this gadget is like debunking myths, adding credibility to solutions, like showing real impact of, of things measuring, quantifying, I guess this is something that NGOs will have difficulties in, in, in having, and they, they need to receive us from us.

00:48:33.798 --> 00:48:40.362
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>when we arm them with, with good weapons, like, like knowledge, I guess some, something good can come out of that.

00:48:40.452 --> 00:48:42.762
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I, I really enjoy this answer.

00:48:43.182 --> 00:48:46.530
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And now for the end, tell, tell me how's it going in, in Stallenbosch?

00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:55.586
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I I'm super impressed by how your group is going and, all the staff happening around you, all the courses that you go that are so well attended, it's

00:48:55.603 --> 00:48:57.793
<v Richard Walls>So, so we, we are growing.

00:48:57.793 --> 00:49:02.643
<v Richard Walls>We are going, it's, it's been a chaotic ride the last few years, but we've been very fortunate.

00:49:02.643 --> 00:49:04.043
<v Richard Walls>We've had good support.

00:49:04.043 --> 00:49:10.043
<v Richard Walls>I mean, we've worked with, with various organizations starting out with Edinburgh and then recently a variety of, of groups.

00:49:10.423 --> 00:49:11.364
<v Richard Walls>But what's.

00:49:12.378 --> 00:49:16.579
<v Richard Walls>Positive is that there's a big need for fire engineering education and research.

00:49:16.838 --> 00:49:19.378
<v Richard Walls>And so there was a bit of a void and an African void.

00:49:19.378 --> 00:49:30.458
<v Richard Walls>And what's really been nice is the team that has developed, I mean if you look at our PhDs at the moment, we've got someone who's gonna go back to Nigeria or hopefully set up research group there.

00:49:30.458 --> 00:49:34.858
<v Richard Walls>We've got people from Zambia, Ethiopia, India, Chile, and.

00:49:35.418 --> 00:49:38.938
<v Richard Walls>Attendees at our courses from all sorts of different countries.

00:49:38.938 --> 00:49:45.539
<v Richard Walls>So what's nice is it's starting to get a developing world and especially African flavor in terms of training the trainer.

00:49:45.838 --> 00:49:51.431
<v Richard Walls>And so hopefully long term the people from here can go back and establish courses across.

00:49:51.692 --> 00:50:01.422
<v Richard Walls>And we've, we've had, generous support as at Royal Academy of Engineering, Lloyd's Register, um, had the Almond Bursary recently supporting developing world and moving.

00:50:02.097 --> 00:50:06.007
<v Richard Walls>So we've had a couple of hundred engineers trained in structural fire, fire dynamics.

00:50:06.356 --> 00:50:07.527
<v Richard Walls>I think we're getting a new lab.

00:50:07.527 --> 00:50:08.166
<v Richard Walls>Very exciting.

00:50:08.697 --> 00:50:11.967
<v Richard Walls>Um, so we've got a little 400 square meter lab.

00:50:11.967 --> 00:50:15.487
<v Richard Walls>Hopefully have a large scale hood and whatever we can afford, we'll get

00:50:15.489 --> 00:50:17.690
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's massive, that that's massive improvement.

00:50:17.797 --> 00:50:18.286
<v Richard Walls>Yeah.

00:50:18.286 --> 00:50:19.806
<v Richard Walls>So bit by bit all is moving.

00:50:19.806 --> 00:50:21.887
<v Richard Walls>We, we kind of figure it out as we go.

00:50:21.887 --> 00:50:22.527
<v Richard Walls>We, we.

00:50:22.896 --> 00:50:32.536
<v Richard Walls>Privilege to have an ITB or a Maryland WPI Lund Edinburgh education, but we just sort of muddle along and figure it out and stuff.

00:50:32.536 --> 00:50:34.177
<v Richard Walls>And afterwards what we just burn.

00:50:34.867 --> 00:50:35.416
<v Richard Walls>So it's.

00:50:35.637 --> 00:50:45.657
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>observing it from the side uh, you are doing it the right way, even the right way than many of, the uh, noble associations and the noble institutions.

00:50:45.657 --> 00:50:47.858
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So congratulations of, of that.

00:50:47.987 --> 00:50:49.898
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If that's an instinct, you have a good one.

00:50:49.898 --> 00:50:52.418
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Just keep following it, that Richard, it works.

00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:53.050
<v Richard Walls>Yeah.

00:50:53.050 --> 00:50:54.210
<v Richard Walls>No, so it's all as well.

00:50:54.210 --> 00:50:54.570
<v Richard Walls>But thanks.

00:50:54.570 --> 00:50:55.409
<v Richard Walls>Yeah, it's been good.

00:50:55.409 --> 00:50:56.231
<v Richard Walls>Good being here today.

00:50:56.231 --> 00:50:58.012
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you Richard, for, for, this interview.

00:50:58.012 --> 00:51:15.940
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I, I, I hope we've touched, uh, many important, things about a problem for 1 billion of people from an engineer's perspective, that there has been a lot in, in this interview, but that's the environment you have to navigate that there, there just is that many aspects of the same problem and one.

00:51:16.460 --> 00:51:19.480
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Gun powder ball will not, uh, will not solve that for sure.

00:51:19.679 --> 00:51:21.559
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you so much for coming to the show.

00:51:21.702 --> 00:51:22.331
<v Richard Walls>No, thanks.

00:51:22.331 --> 00:51:22.612
<v Richard Walls>a lot.

00:51:22.612 --> 00:51:23.251
<v Richard Walls>Good being here.

00:51:24.094 --> 00:51:27.784
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And that's I always find them informal settlement, fire, subject.

00:51:28.474 --> 00:51:30.574
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>On one hand depressing on the other hand.

00:51:31.043 --> 00:51:31.784
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>chance too.

00:51:31.862 --> 00:51:36.626
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Really deliver fire safety to so many people like it's really meaningful.

00:51:36.717 --> 00:51:45.077
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You know, I always had this feeling, especially when I talked to Danielle some time ago, like, you know, we, we do all this fancy modeling, all these crazy.

00:51:45.746 --> 00:51:47.336
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Efforts to improve.

00:51:47.507 --> 00:51:51.757
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Safety over skyscraper, which is already super saved by like 1%.

00:51:52.427 --> 00:51:56.963
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And here, people are without fundamentally any fire safety.

00:51:57.161 --> 00:51:59.141
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>changing any through some BS.

00:51:59.710 --> 00:52:01.061
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Way way bigger.

00:52:01.481 --> 00:52:02.170
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Impacted.

00:52:02.900 --> 00:52:04.440
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>me you will ever have.

00:52:04.570 --> 00:52:07.630
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In, in our modern, beautiful world.

00:52:07.811 --> 00:52:08.771
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's yeah.

00:52:08.860 --> 00:52:13.300
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Well, The pressing, but an opportunity to really make an impact for sure.

00:52:13.481 --> 00:52:15.701
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you, Richard, for, for making the impact.

00:52:15.701 --> 00:52:16.900
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you for your research.

00:52:16.931 --> 00:52:19.510
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you for thinking as an engineer.

00:52:19.541 --> 00:52:24.431
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you for providing answers and guidelines Building resources.

00:52:24.820 --> 00:52:26.641
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So people can battle the problem.

00:52:27.311 --> 00:52:29.661
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, it was a very honest and, At points.

00:52:30.110 --> 00:52:32.481
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Difficult conversation, but I'm very happy.

00:52:32.871 --> 00:52:33.380
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm very happy.

00:52:33.411 --> 00:52:35.061
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We had that, even if I don't sound like that.

00:52:35.601 --> 00:52:36.300
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm the breast.

00:52:36.891 --> 00:52:42.650
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Well, that will be it for today's episode and as usual, what.

00:52:42.650 --> 00:52:44.240
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I remember about the QA.

00:52:44.420 --> 00:52:45.650
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I still need the questions.

00:52:46.610 --> 00:52:50.740
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, I need you to come here next week and see you there then by.