The Latest from the Rollback Wars and the Excellence of Bel-Air CC with Geoff Shackelford

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Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.

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Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a bride egg, Friday Egg, the dread and Frida Egg, Fridagg, Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison, and today's guest is Jeff Shackelford. No doubt you're familiar with Jeff. He is the writer of the Quadrilateral Newsletter, which focuses on news and insights around golf's major championships. And he is also the author of the new book Golf Architecture for Normal People, which I highly recommend and you can find anywhere you get books. I'm bringing Jeff on today for a couple of reasons. For first of all, Jeff is Friday Golf's unofficial rollback correspondent, and we have senior rollback correspondent, and we have rollback developments to talk about, for better or for worse. Yesterday was actually an important date for the USGA and RNA's proposed Model Local Rule, which would help institute a limited flight Ball for elite competitions. Yesterday was the end of the designated comment period in which various organizations and industry stakeholders were invited to offer their feedback on the MLR, and boy did they ever. So Jeff and I will break down all of that, and then for a completely different subject. He was out at Belair Country Club last week for the US Women's Amateur and I want to talk to him about that golf course. In that event, we'll also touch on the AIG Women's Open, which was held at Walton Heath last week. Those are two big women's tournaments and two very interesting golf courses, and few people are better at talking about courses than Jeff. All right, so right after this break, we'll be back with Jeff Shackelford. This episode of the Frida Egg Golf Podcast is brought to you by CLUBTFE. Club TF is Frida Egg Golf's membership. You can find out more at the Frida Egg dot com slash membership. We have a couple of new things rolling out in CLUBTFE.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: First of all, obviously Frida Egg Golf went through a rebranding recently. We were once the Friday Egg now we are Frida Egg Golf. We also have a new logo, a new look, all that good stuff. We've sent out emails to this effect. But for CLUBTFE members the content is remaining largely the same, but again there's a bit of a new look to everything now. As part of this rebranding process, one of the things that we thought through was what kind of content we are offering through Club TFE. We're going to continue doing a lot of the same stuff we were doing before. We have the weekly course profiles, we have the Club TFE blog going. But one thing that we launched just on Monday of this week is Design Notebook. Design Notebook is a column basically that comes out on Monday and covers all sorts of golf architecture related topics. It's going to be news, it's going to be rumors, it's going to be insights about courses that we've visited recently. It's going to be miscellaneous, but all of it revolves around golf course design. We're going to hope to bring out that column pretty much every Monday going forward. There will be various contributors to it, but I will be contributing a lot to it. Myself. So that's design notebook. If you're a Club TFE member, you can check out the first installment of it right now on the Club TFE blog. So again, the place to go is the Frida egg dot com slash membership to see what we have in Club TFE. All right, back to the episode. All right, Jeff Shackelford, There's been a lot of movement lately in the rollback situation. The comment period for the model Local rule ends today when we're talking. It will be yesterday by the time this podcast is posted. Both the PGA of America and the PGA Tour have weighed in on the subject. Why don't we start with the PGA of America. What was the response here and how would you explain it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, the yeah, the comment period has has ended, and at the very end, at the sort of the tail end, they they went public with their comment, which I think that alone you have to think about a little bit because the USGA and RNA have been air tight in their secrecy or not secrecy that's the wrong word. That sounds sort of nefarious, but they've been they've been disciplined about not intervening in the in the comment period. You know, I've tried. I tried at bel air rather relentlessly. I might have gotten some people that give me some tidbits here and there, but not really legally.

00:05:23
Speaker 1: I think they expect that from you. I think would disappoint you. Tried to press the issue I have to try. I got nothing of substance, let's be clear. But the point is they want to be They're trying to be open and to hear these.

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Speaker 2: Comments, and so they don't want to intervene as it's going. I was pleased to hear because I did ask. One of the main things I did get an answer on was that if I could write a letter like the PGA of America, would they take it, And they went, oh, no, we we We've already gotten all your comments. They document all the media coverage and columns and different things as this was going. So I was pleased. I didn't have to spend my Sunday night penning a last minute letter, and I'll do it instead in a newsletter for my fine subscribers.

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Speaker 1: But we don't. We don't have to fill out a form. In other words, no, them has been opened for us for a while, and.

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Speaker 2: More than we realized. I think interesting. So yeah, So the PGA, essentially I felt, funneled a lot of talking points of one company in particular, but in general some things that we had heard them say before about the topic and and some new things and and not all of them are are silly. You know, there are questions that I feel like before the comment period the usgn RNA should have addressed things like handicapping. Say at the Club Championship they play the model local rule ball. When you turn in those scores, Well, how are those rated versus a normal round? These are all things I believe they know the answer to, but they I think it's their one failing in that sense that they didn't anticipate a few of those questions raised by the PGA of America. There was some stuff with the driving range balls, which is I think was very first world. And it felt like the memo from the PGA of America was similar to the tours and that you know, they have a big board, twenty people, I believe, a lot officers, a lot of past presidents with voices, some much smarter than others. So they're trying to cover all of that and show that they listened. But the fact they went public with it, and then I never did hear it, but I didn't know Seth Waw was on the Golf channel, so they were kind of out pushing their point, which I think was a little aggressive as well, and I guess they feel they need to defend it. But the bigger point is that they're just they're really against this. And I think what's fascinating though, both they and the PGA Tour are really seizing on the bifurcation idea and how bad that is for the game. And my view and I'm gonna write a piece about this, is that they I think they've teed up the organizations to go, Okay, fine, we won't do a model local role. We have we have some balls already sent in. The data shows that a majority of golfers wouldn't even notice a difference distance wise, a vast majority. I mean, I don't know the number, but I'm feeling like clubhead speed wise, this is a one percent of the game issue that would be impacted by the proposed new testing and so I feel like they, in a weird way, unintentionally, I think may have teed them up to go, Okay, no model local rule, We're just going to implement the new testing and see what happens. But if they do that, they need to make sure they make very clear to the average golfer out there that, you know, I hate to break it to you, but you're not going to lose distance if we do this. So that was kind of my main takeaway of the memo and sort of the idea of what it may have spawned.

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Speaker 1: What do you think the main pressure acting on seth Waw right now? Is Is it the fact that the membership of his organization is predominantly against this? Is seth Waw or the PGA of America leadership generally a true believer in the anti rollback cause? What is going on within that organization that would cause them to come out this way against another governing against the governing bodies? Right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, It's hard to know because so many of the members of the PGA of America deal with some of the issues on a day to day basis that we know are caused by distance.

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Speaker 1: That's what I would think, right, Yeah. Who is more aware of the safe the issues and the property boundary issues caused by a longer traveling golf ball than a PGA pro.

00:10:07
Speaker 2: But there are also people who are in the world of commerce and they have arrangements with companies and they get free stuff, and it seems like they've basically come down on the side of preferring that, which is, you know, probably from my writing, just totally blows my mind, since the manufacturer's really kind of abandoned the golf pro shop at a course as their main place. I mean, we have seen a little bit of a comeback with fitting and fitting days and order your clubs this way, but at least in my lifetime I'm a little older than you, I've gone from starting the game at a time when the pro really mattered, his shop really mattered, and the shop wasn't just a place to sell stuff. It was kind of a little communal place at a lot of golf courses where you know, younger golfers hung out with the assistant pros and then you went out and played golf and you know, and the growth the game context, the golf shop, I mean, going back to old Tom and St. Andrews was a real central place that of course is both private and public, and so to me it's really kind of gross when you know that history. The way the manufacturers drop them like a you know, lead balloon to sell it at Roger Dunn's a nothing against Roger Dunn or wherever. Dick's Sporting Goods. Their their businesses and they're doing what they do and they're nice stores and all that, but it's odd that the pros don't recognize that part of the deal. But they like free golf balls, and Titleist gives a lot of money, I believe to the PGA of America Retirement Fund. So to answer your question regarding Seth, you know, he's got a lot of things coming at him from different areas, and it's a tricky one for him because if he starts mentioning issues he's seen at his clubs, well, of course he starts reeling off a list of like four hundred membership and that looks kind of weird. But I you know, again, I I kind of sense he's on board with it, which is a little weird to me, knowing what he knows about course design and the time he's spent with with people like Gil and and playing the great courses and and all that. So I think he's caught between a bunch of different things. But he's the CEO and he could probably have sold this better and for all I know, maybe that this was their motive. Maybe they do want to kill bifurcation and have it just apply to the overall game. And but I don't feel like the organization's in question, given the way they've been behaving lately.

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Speaker 1: Are that clever, Nor do I think that they want that. But that would be amazing they did.

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Speaker 2: They may have put the UIU. It's heated up for the USG and R and A to do this, and then they're going to be unhappy when they go, Okay, we'll call your bluff no bifurcation. That makes it easier for everybody. And then and then we'll hear them bitch mode about that.

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Speaker 1: And there's a there's a separate set of arguments about that, which are easier arguments to make. I always thought that the argument against bifurcation was a little bit hard to make because it's so abstract. Right, you have to make some kind of appeal to the spirit of the unity of the game, and that's not a particularly emotional thing for a lot of people, So it's hard to use that as a as a key point in your persuasion, whereas if you say you're going to lose twenty yards, then that's more of an emotional appeal to golfers, And so it would seem to me that the argument against universal rollback would be a lot easier to make. But certainly these various organizations have mounted a vigorous case, if not a particularly coherent or strong one against bifurcation. Now, Titleist's role in this is obviously profound. Titleist is a dominant force in the green grass business. How would you describe titleists relatetionship with PGA pros and pro shops across the country. Now, I'm not asking you to engage in conspiratorial thinking. I don't think that the Titleist is the deep State or anything like that, but obviously they have a lot of influence in pro shops and among PGA professionals.

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Speaker 2: Right, Well, many of the talking points in the PGA of America memo we're just straight from their list of topics that, you know, the various approaches they've tried over this delay and different things like that we all play the same game, blah blah blah. I mean it was right from literally it was like they went on their website and took some of this stuff. So yeah, and they obviously have a strong relationship with a lot of pros. Of course they're tailor made and callaway pros out there too, but they are more relentless on this topic, always have been, you know, and have always been after me and the places I work, and bitching and moaning and doing PowerPoint presentations to the Golf Channel staff to try to when when they're advertising deal was in question and the advertising hinging on that, you know, listening to that, of course they're back advertising there. So anything you hear on Golf Channel that there's that influence now as well if anybody still watches any of the shows. But they are aggressive and they just don't see anything. But the status quo is as a solution of course, is you know, walking around bel Air talking to good golfers or members there or fans who came out who are purests or in terms of loving watching great golf and great young women play on a cool course. And it was a neat kind of mix because some people did get the word you could come out, it was free, and yeah, you just don't get a sense there are a lot of people in that world that understand their position because you always have to buy and play golf balls. That's always, that's going to be a constant. It's the ultimate planned obsolescence product. And they're the best at it, and they're the most trusted, and in any scenario you want to put out, that's going to continue unless they are stupid and refuse to make the product or try to sabotage it some way. And I don't see them doing that. They're too smart to do that, and they have too many patents, and they've already done all the research on this. We know they could make the ball. They have fourteen balls now on the Conforming list prov one excuse me, fourteen pro v one variations on the conforming list fourteen, So it was twelve and I last time I looked a few weeks ago, it jumped to two mores.

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Speaker 1: So do I have access to all fourteen of those?

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Speaker 2: You do not?

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Speaker 1: You do not, even though we all supposedly play, we play the same equipment. Sorry that was a cheap shot.

00:16:53
Speaker 2: Well, no, it wasn't, no, because it's an important point. And I think what I noticed I'm picking up more and more is how many people don't buy that argument. Like, we know they have a tour van, they got these great fitters who dial them in. They make tweaks, they make adjustments, new products out. We're trying that it's on the list that you and I can't buy. Uh. They get it all for free. You know, they're not having to pay for this, the players. So the arguments are are not great, and but this is what they've always done, and and and and it's just got to be clear by now they're never going to be happy. So you just have to ignore their their their position at this point because they they just it's you know, it's pure, pure selfishness. And and the irony, of course, is that they have a lot of fans who love the feeling like they're part of a tradition and a more traditional brand and and all that. And they when you walk some of those people through these things who don't maybe follow it, they're offended, you know, people who care about all architecture or safety or the things that matter and watching a more interesting game and they don't know this, and you take them through it, and they're they're they're pretty offended and heard and disappointed that the company is quietly behind the scenes working this way. So it's a it's a bit of a risky position on their part in that way.

00:18:22
Speaker 1: Tell me if this is naive. But I thought going into this that this whole situation might be a great opportunity for a company like Tailor Made or Strixon Yep, or even Callaway, although I believe they're number two at this point and maybe want to defend their current market position a little bit. I thought it was going to be a perceived opportunity for these companies to upend the current balance in the ball market, which is very, very favorable towards titleist.

00:19:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've long had the view, and Gosh, back in my Future Golf book which is now the self published once twenty years old, I put that scenario out there, Who's going to be that company that makes the classic course ball? Because and you know, Andy and I have talked about it and many times, and Andy continues to remind everybody of the saft spikes example, which I saw firsthand. After Rivier's greens were bad in the PGA, the club adopted made it mandatory to wear soft spikes. Other clubs started doing that. And the fact that this one essentially one high profile course, there might have been one or two others jumped on board on that and look where we are now, you know, and it's better for the game for the most part. That we don't have spikes, even though they are better, but for greens and the way idiots walk and the damage that they can do. The turf grass industry likes it better. And I think we've seen the improvement. And so where is that. I've been waiting for that one company to have the same, to go to a pro at a Pine Valley or a Marion or a take your pick of a place that is doing silly stuff with teas not you know, because they want to remain relevant and saying, you know what, enough is enough and the crump cump, We're going to play the normalties, but we're going to play this ball. Well. They need the ball to be made. So it is odd to me that these companies that obsess about titleist as dominance didn't even try it. I mean, just just to just put it out there quietly, classic course ball. It's not a big deal to us, but it's just another product. I mean, they make a jillion products as it is, all of them, you know, even Jack Nicholas, you know when he went in the golf business. Who's spent on this thing since the early seventies, and he's been very consistent. He came out with three balls, you know, a good player ball, I guess, a general, and then a kind of a ginner. And why wasn't one of those rollback ball? And it's just the industry is addicted to selling longer and straighter. That's all they've got.

00:21:12
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's talk about the PGA Tour side of things. A few weeks ago, Jay Monahan came out with a memo that I'm not sure was intended to be released publicly. I can't remember. I believe it was. It was an intentional leak kind of situation. Yeah, it was, like, you know, it wasn't a press release, but basically it was. And this memo included some assurances to the players that they would fight the MLRD would be opposed to it. Now, a common interpretation out there was that because j Monahan is currently in such a weak position with regard to PGA Tour members, he can't push back on them with the MLR. Do you think it would have made a difference in the first place. Do you think this week of his right now really played into his position on this or was this going to be the position all alone.

00:22:08
Speaker 2: Well, I definitely think it. It fueled some of the language, but he's he's always had this position when I've spoken to him one on one, and so it's not a huge shock, but I do think that his weekend position probably helped. And then obviously the players fearful of losing contracts because there may be language in those deals that allows them to be dropped if this happens. Is a is a driving force. So IES's just the timing is is certainly interesting on so many levels. And then as you've been noting on what what the few times I pop into Twitter on my for you feet, I know you guys have been hammering home the point that and this is when I argued with with Jay and didn't get anywhere, but that that where's the big picture view on the way your product is played and understanding that it's it's just not as interesting this with this version of the game that you're determined to have. And there's also just the the they the philosophic belief that they they've grown the game, that they're the ones who are responsible for the increase in in rounds played or the number of people. And there's no question that they've helped on a lot of fronts. Whether you can go go to little things like whatever the first t kind of shifting doing more of a golf program instead of a life skills program, or their their work with getting top golf more golf related and strategy partnership, whatever they want, brand equity, blah blah blah blah, all those Let we know all these little things are contributing the normalization of nine whole rounds, part three courses. You know, no question that guys have are not They're not hurting the recreational game, let's put that way. But we also know the pandemic was a big part of it and kind of a change in perspective and changing in work habits and commutes and all that was a far greater, far greater impact and the safety of the sport in terms of being outdoors. So, but they are they seem to be pretty convinced that they're a ninety percent of the cause of the spike and interest in the sport, and I think the ratings would would suggest that that that isn't the case. I think you would see a I think you see it. Oh, I mean you can make the case the ratings are not so great because people are not playing all So you can tell it either way if you really want to.

00:24:56
Speaker 1: Right, you've seen a rise in rounds played on golf courses by average golfers, but you have not seen a corresponding rise in interest in PGA Tour events. Certainly those things are growing at a different pace right now, and so to draw a correlation between them would be pretty shaky. But this is something that I noticed in the way that PGA Tour players discuss a lot of things that are going on right now with the tour, with the likely coming restructuring of the tour, this new age of professional golf. When the players talk about it, they slip pretty easily between the term PGA Tour and the term the game of golf. Yeah, and one thing that I think we need to remember is that those two things are not the same, and that the game of golf is a lot bigger than the PGA Tour. But it seems like this position on rollback that the PGA Tour has comes partly out of this conviction that they are the game of golf, or that they are the most important thing in the game of golf and that if they take a stand here, then it's not going to happen. But I wonder what you think about that. Even if the PGA of America is against it, even if the PGA Tour is against it, the USGA and the RNA are certainly for it, and they have a couple of really big championships where they can institute this model local rule. So where do you see this standoff going.

00:26:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no question they think they're the game. And that's sort of the irony of the PGA of America's position that. And believe me, I love a great golf pro and have all the admiration in the world for them, but in most facilities, the superintendent's now the most important person and paid like it, and the manager at other facilities is same thing more than the pro. And so the idea that both organizations think so highly of their role in the sport is probably driving some of their their arrogance or or whatever you want to call it on this topic. And there might be some truth to it, but I think there I think they're overstepping a little bit. So ultimately, the math on the majors doesn't still doesn't add up for them, and the Masters will adopt this if it's made, and the companies somebody does it, and the players will have to play it and figure it out for the twenty twenty six Masters. And that's three to one.

00:27:36
Speaker 1: Okay, here's the theory. Maybe you can respond to this. The PGA Tour and the PGA of America most of all, want the USGA and RNA just to drop this. That's that's what they want because.

00:27:50
Speaker 2: They know, fine, make it go away.

00:27:52
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe maybe this arrogance is so profound that they think that they could actually proceed with the old ball if the MLR gets instituted as proposed. But I don't think that they're that delusional. I think that they know they're going to have to adjust to this if the MLR goes into effect, that the Masters, the US Open, and the Open Championship, and so my feeling is that their tactic right now is like, we've got to make a show of force, and we've got to try to squash this right now because we're going to have to capitulate if this goes through. Like do you think that's what they're thinking or would you edit that that that interpretation in some ways.

00:28:43
Speaker 2: No, that's my sense that it's to try to get it delayed and hope it goes away. And you know, keep saying that, well everything's fine now, why would you do it now? Or yeah it's again, they're just channeling company talking points. Some of these guys really sit back and give it much thought.

00:28:59
Speaker 1: I get the player's trepidation here because they've all been so successful in the current state of things. They have made their careers in this equipment reality, and they don't want that taken away. And I totally get that, and their their success, their expertise should be celebrated well that they should be able to it just of all.

00:29:24
Speaker 2: Well, yeah we're talking about we're not talking about making them go back to that's taking away there. These are. That's what makes their the whining kind of pathetic. I would get totally get it if it was a radical change, but it's such a it's a it's a change that can can be worked on on a launch monitor. It just is not a big ask for them. And the only change will be they're going to be hitting some longer clubs into holes. Maybe maybe they might, but they might even move some te's back up to where they used to be who knows. We need to see what the end product looks like and they'll have time to adjust. And that part is it. Really I've really lost a lot of respect for most of the players in that because I've been searching for that one player that goes, you know, I'll give whatever they make, I'll play whatever they give me. I'm going to go out there, I'll get it done. I'm confident in my ability. There hasn't been that sort of that courageous stance of somebody, and it really is embarrassing that Rory's finally changed. But he was all over the map on the topic, and he probably would admit that.

00:30:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's make a big transition here into a more positive topic in my view, which is the tournaments that took place so over this past week, including the US Women's Amateur, which you saw in person. So you were out at bel Air Country Club to watch the action. What was your favorite hole to watch out there in this tournament?

00:31:12
Speaker 2: Well, it was, Yeah, it's the first time I've gotten to see good players playing at the restoration this way. But before I mean, before I pick a hole, I just want to say it was the thing that was so enjoyable to watch. Was actually some long seeing the course played and I don't like this phrase, but it's the best you can do, somewhat like it was meant to be designed, or just or played like it was meant to be designed. Meaning on some of the long part fours, you saw hybrids and long irons in, and you saw the kind of mix of shot making, and you saw people in the crowds. They weren't huge, but the people who were there reacted yes occasionally to say, in the final, the Tannas Stone hits a couple of big drives and you know, there's a little bit of ooh. But it was more the lines that they took, the aggressive lines, knowing the trouble. It was more seeing somebody play to a middle of the green after from with a long club in after the first player missed the green, and you know, seen a little of the nuance in the strategy and match play. It just was beautiful to watch. And I actually thought the USHG played the most too short. I thought they aired at little too much on a couple holes that played a little differently than I would have thought. And they also just didn't mix it up as I would have as much as I would have thought. I mean, the women are playing their tenth round on Sunday, you know, on the course you think I would have I'd like to have seen a little bit more, but so and it was just the women are great and it's just great, just wonderful attitudes, friendly, down to earth, and it does remind you that the power game breeds, it can douchebaggery for lack of I'm sorry if that just just gave you an explicit warning on the Friday you guys have avoided, I think, but it really does breed this sort of this jag that thinks these you know, like a weightlifter that can you know lift ridiculous, you know, should be in the Olympics. And the women are a little more well rounded, every one of them you interview, and the way they interact with the crowds and the people, and that happens at the men's US Amateur two just because of the way it's played. You know, it's sort of this weak, long thing and there's people out in the galleries and you know, the families are there, and you see the emotion when somebody wins a match of the people around them and all that stuff. But so there's just a different atmosphere that way, but it's also the way the game's played, and uh, it is it is fascinating to see that difference. And uh and these women were not short by any means. Like I said, I thought they could have played it a little longer, frankly, and brought a few hazards into play that they were kind of bombing over. So yeah, it was gosh. I mean, favorite hole, the the fourteenth really played beautifully, the Apar five, and it's always been a really tough hole. It plays down the canyon and it has a green that goes way hard away from you. And the dok took the front bunkers down. They used to be up a lot higher when I played there in college, and they hid the green more and I can't decide whether I like that better. It's it's such a cool green though, to see into. So I mean there were, you know, there were a lot of holes that play great. The may West Hall the twelfth, which I realized when I was tagging a couple of the players hitting into the may West. I was thinking, is should I be doing that? Should I? Is? This? Is? This is this problematic? I mean First of all, they have no, they're not gonna know.

00:34:54
Speaker 1: It's it's one of those whole names that yeah, I mean, it is concealed enough, I guess, but it is one of those whole names that kind of comes out comes out of the old fashioned bro culture, you know.

00:35:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully they just google me. Oh it's it's named after a movie star, Okay, and then they won't they won't dig any any deeper. But yeah, they played it drivable. And who did I argue with the few people didn't like it. I thought it was kind of cool. They played it up. They actually created this tea for the amateur. It'll probably stay for the for the members, the women and the and the the wives of members who it's because it is it's not a men's club, but it's and they do have women member full members, but it is a majority men. And uh, they're going to keep that tea. I think they might even play it in a club thing. But I actually thought it was it was kind of neat, just to mix it up. Again. I'm not thrilled with the way that hole came out. I don't like all the rough and and the mound the left breast, if you will is to two point e and big and uh so that was but it's still played well. I'm really all the whole the whole course played well. The first hole played beautifully and it was need it settled match ties. Yeah, it's a hole there that they don't really it's too easy since of the renovation. I keep hearing it's like, well, but that was the philosophy.

00:36:16
Speaker 1: Part four and a half. Yeah, and I saw.

00:36:18
Speaker 2: I mean Latannas Stone hit the most beautiful shot into the hole. There's this big slope left of the green and then there are these shrubs left of that, so you really have to take on a potential lost ball, hit it up on this high slope and feed it down to hold the green in two unless you play straight at the green, which you can do. There's a slot you can kind of work it in the middle, but if you cut come off it a little, you go down a hill and your toast. I mean, you could play the shot, but it's all brutal up and it's a.

00:36:47
Speaker 1: Big ledge on the right side of the green.

00:36:49
Speaker 2: Basically, Yeah, I would say, Actually, that hole I think played the best and it was a great example where the distances they hit it really showed what a brilliant hall it is as opposed to what it's you know, this this post renovation view that it's it's not a good haul or it's too easy. And so I think I hope some of the members who are out there saw that and absorb that, because maybe with a model local roll ball or rollback ball, it'll be a little bit more of a good reachable type par five instead of a drive in a nine nine er. Which I get that, but you know that's not George Thomas or the architecture's fault that they can do that. It's the equipment's fault.

00:37:38
Speaker 1: All right. So in your book Golf Architecture for Normal People, you propose a system for evaluating golf courses that goes by the acronym r ED. So I want to try to apply this system in some way to bel Air. Maybe there are some insights that we could get out of that. But first, could you just briefly describe what r ED stands for?

00:38:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know ours for remember, E is for for for the everyday question and and D is for dog. And Yeah, the idea was that I wanted to uh sort of demystify the real tenants of what makes the course great and and you and I can can bore people to tears all day talking about routing and all these in scale and and I think I feel like that can that could be a turnoff to some people. So I was looking for a way to first of all, to make it easy to remember uh, and and then to ask those questions, explain what they speak to in the more wonkier ways of golf architecture UH. And then to just simply answer yes or no. I mean, if somebody wants to assign and number to each one, they can whatever. They can do whatever they want. But it was more for me just a yes and no question, because I've just always felt like it was generally the first two questions, can you remember every hole after you've played it? And is it a place you could play every day and enjoy it? I was asking those for a while, and then the dog thing kind of came because nothing really addressed scale and naturalness and that sort of intangible joy of walking a place or enjoying a place that maybe, yeah, just because it's not ranked in the top one hundred doesn't mean it's not a place that makes you feel good and you know you read the book, I caved a little on the experiential part. You know, les architecture nuts have always you know, agonized when people factor in the experience, and I just when I was working on the book, I just realized, you just can't fight that, So don't fight it.

00:39:49
Speaker 1: And there are some design elements that enhance experience.

00:39:52
Speaker 2: So well, of course, of course, and there are experiential elements that take away from the from the design, you know, And I use the analogy of a movie. You go to a theater and the floors are sticky, and people are looking at their phone, and the one of the speakers isn't working, and you can't fully enjoy that film if if those things aren't Or you go and everything is just right. The audience is quiet, the seats are comfortable, the screen is everything's just dialed, and the sound is just right, and it's a great film. It just makes a great film even better. You know. There are all those kinds of those elements, and so I wanted to try to cover all those in The dog element gets to some of those things. About the walk, I actually learned an interesting word walking with Fred Purpaul, the USGA president, because he's an architect and he's really, you know, such an impressive guy because he's really a new golfer in a sense in the time he's been playing the game, and his knowledge is incredible already and his understanding. And we were discussing the bell Air Clubhouse because I couldn't get anything too profound out of him on topics where where lawyers are monitoring every word they say. And you know, the clubhouse is under construction and it's it fell behind, it wasn't ready, and they've really tried to bring back their original building with you know, like modern bells and whistles and maybe a little more indoor outdoor space than the old building had. But when you stand on the tenth green they wanted and it does, it looks just like the old Rambling Spanish building with this beautiful bell tower. Just from the course. It looks so cool. And that's hard to do in that neighborhood with so many, so many massive homes now, although most of them are pretty pretty ugly. But he used an interesting word, procession, and he said, we use a word in architecture about the procession, and it's essentially a similar element to the dog walk topic of of kind of the flow and when you get out of the car, and what do you you know, what do you see? What do you experience? And how and how you move because the old bell A Clubhouse, it had all these add ons like a like the golf course did, and you could get lost in there. It was dark and it was confusing. I mean I when I was Pepperedie, I literally a couple of times, I was, I got lost just trying to get to the damn first team because we had to change our shoes in the locker room. They let us do that. They didn't want us changing in the parking lot, you know, even though we were parking down in the caddy lot. And and so that was an interesting word. So anyway, it got to it, I was, I was smiling because he didn't know about my book. Uh and uh, but I was kind of grinning, like, well, I wish I'd known that word before I'd written that chapter. It would have been a good one to fit in. But uh, anyway, so bell Air, yeah, it Uh. I mean, I can't think of a many courses that are easier to remember all the holes and and you know, you know that's the primary topic there is routing and I have issues when people questioned a routing, because there's been involved in a few you just don't know what the constraints were. So all you can really do is judge what was built. And to me, the ultimate of whatever was built is the memorability part. And I mean bell Air just just one of the craziest things ever. The way it's originally George Thomas had lent on starting at the clubhouse and then a few canyons in front of it, and then they were going to go down where UCLA is now, and things changed hands with developers. University kind of bought the land, took it on and made it there. So he had to, for lack of a better buzzword, pivot and got in his plane and flew over the canyons according to some of the old magazines, and they had to come up with a course and make it work with tunnels and these only in the canyon portion. And of course it was a real estate development, so and the way they do that and the way it works, it's impossible not to remember all the holes.

00:44:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's yes, category and it's all it's interesting that the routing for you factors most into the r component. The remember every whole component, because a lot of people would say that routing factors very heavily into the dog walk component. It does, it doesn't, I mean it probably it goes into both, for sure, But you know when it comes.

00:44:28
Speaker 2: To more and kind of how the holes fit the land and sort of change pace transitions and yeah, and just how you feel playing them and are they fighting the land? Is it is the architect fighting you? So yeah, but no, there are definite, definitely parallels.

00:44:46
Speaker 1: And maybe what is most extraordinary about bel Air is that, in spite of the difficulties of the land, the procession, as Fred might put it, is really good. Like it works well, they made it work somehow.

00:45:04
Speaker 2: It's amazing, I mean, and it goes. I wrote a piece of years ago, and I think I need to revisit it, especially since the magazine is belly up. It was Golf Digest Index and it's about the greatest entrance drives in golf and literally bell Air. Of course, I had a cool chat with somebody that had no idea what I'd written or knew or thought, and it was talking about how you're driving up this road, You're going what the heck? They can't be a golf course here, there's no way. And when you see the finished clubhouse there actually and they've got some great members who've put so much thought into the procession, and they're gonna have a new little entrance because they have kind of they're on a turn that's kind of odd, but you're gonna come down. You're gonna see this. You're gonna be going through this crazy little blagio road and then you're gonna you're gonna get a pop a little view of the bridge, the swinging bridge. It's just one of the coolest icons in the game. And when you're on the court, she kind of can't take your eyes off it. They're gonna paint it a little it's gonna a little more off white, but to fit the clubhouse, which is good. But you'll get this little thing, uh, a little pop of the course which you didn't get before. And then you'll pull in and you can just see in the new design. You'll just walk right in the front door and you just see the view out to what's before you, and it'll it'll be sort of cinematic, uh. And then as the course you get out there, you'll get to the first tee and and just the way it goes and finishes. I mean the only you know, inconvenience really is getting back from the eighteenth green and well there's an elevator and for that so or a path up if but they are a walking course, so yeah, so the procession there both getting to the course and then when you're on it it yeah, I mean you have to go through tunnels and there's some brakes, but it just flows.

00:46:52
Speaker 1: But that and that's part of it. That that's the kind of the magical thing about it is that the places where you can see the stitches in that routing are pleasurable in and of themselves. Yeah, going through those tunnels is cool, Like it's a fun walk. It's not a pain in the butt. It's a feature of the golf course. And uh, and that is just something that that i I think bel Air does better than just about any other course that's built on similarly severe terrain. And it really is quite an accomplishment maybe wouldn't have been done after the era of really common golf carts. You know, this is this is the kind of witchcraft that Golden Age architects really were good.

00:47:34
Speaker 2: At, no question, and and obviously George Thomas was a little bit on the forward thinking side more than others. And there was a developer who was willing to pay for for elevators and things at a time when that was a big deal end up and I hate to think what they did had to do to get those canyons playable. But yeah, it's it's it's just astounding. And yeah, the everyday question, it would have been a definite no prior to the dope work. And I can attest because we would play qualifying rounds there. We played early in the morning. A lot of times they'd send us off ten. Not a fun start. The old tenth was a three tier green. It's just a hardhole uphill, but it was a three deer green with bunkers and it was it was. It was very hard to part at seven in the morning. But it is now of course you absolutely go, oh gosh, I could player every day, not just just the fun factor of the holes, the playability. It was so overtried, so tight, so overcompensating for the yardage and just beat you up in a bad way. They took pride in that, and there's some members I know who don't like the restoration work. Because it's made it easier. I just don't. I don't know what to say that it just looks so fun. Everybody who was out there who came out just to see bel air and then get the chance to see these women, I'd say four or five times somebody I was just chatting with, what this place looks so fun to play? And you just didn't. You just didn't say that before the old course. I mean, it was exciting to play, maybe, but it was humbling. It wore you down, and not in a good way.

00:49:23
Speaker 1: And the current superintendent, Justin de Pippo, might be one of the most talented superintendents in the country, and certainly his presentation of that course is very, very impressive. They've got some interesting things going on with the Bermuda grass there. You know, I don't know that I've seen a southern California course right now that has similar turf. I wonder what you thought of the turf out there.

00:49:47
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it was well. Few players and I heard a few officials were fooled. They didn't know it was Bermuda and they thought they were bent fairways. In fact, I heard somebody ask what kind of bent is I have?

00:50:00
Speaker 1: A new incredible breed that you can pocket.

00:50:02
Speaker 2: If you walked up, I knew, I know it's Bermuda, but if you didn't know, it was a very legitimate question to ask. It was cut that tight, and let me tell you, LA's fairways were beautiful for the US Open, absolutely pristine, great and especially when we didn't have the greatest spring in terms of warmth and sun. And we have gotten the warmth and sun since the US Open. That that that certainly helped Justin. But the tightness of the cut, the firmness, you know, a lot of people were messaging me, it's too green. Why is it so green? I go, well, part of it is, it was very green. And then television jacks it up, I think a little with some contrasts as we know, or something changes with the camera. And but it didn't play soft or slow. There were little ball marks made by t shots, not because of wetness, but because of the tightness of the cut. These little skit which another one you only see that on Bermuda when it's really wet. So Justin is amazing. He's got a great crew. It was an ey moment. They were out watching and Fred. You could tell they were the maintenance crew because because even though they were wearing kind of the same volunteer outfit as as the members of the of the pro shop staff and uh, but they know their pants were dirty. They've been out doing some raking and work and Fred Purple was complimenting them and they were They've got a really nice, tight knit crew that that always helps. And and then having a lot of trees out really helps. Uh that place bel Air always had trouble with greens in the summer dying because of the canyons and air circulation and the trees and uh and and then trying to transition from oversea to to not and its just it's uh so all that stuff comes together and you got to see that with it just in every every way. I mean, I'm not a fan of the look of the bunkers or the little barancas. I'd love to see more sand in those and i just love to see a little more sculpting and handwork and funkiness to the bunkers. They're they're a little too clean and and uh, straightforward and kind of bland to me. But but but the golf is just so much better. And yeah, you could play her every day and never get tired of it. And the and then as Justin and his and and Penny his uh valued assistant, Penny de Papo no relation, uh. She his dog is Golden Doodle, shows that it's a lovely place to take a dog for a walk because she just loves to frolic out there. And obviously the surrounding real estate, the beautiful canyons, the beautiful climate when the breeze comes through the canyon and all that that helps too, no question, but it does, as hilly as it is, that it has a beautiful sort of walk in the park feel to it. And and the players really reinforced that as well. And they were tired, and the caddies were really tired, but they got shot rides to make up for the lack of the elevator not working. And but they the players really attested to how much they were loving the course. And I think the quality of the two two finalists, I mean early in the week you could see they were playing really well. Yeah, but you never know a match play if they'll make it, but they were. I watched both of them in the stroke play, and especially Schofield, I was not surprised that she got to where she got.

00:53:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, or Latana Stone, you know she yeah, national women's Amateur and has has been there in big tournaments and yeah, it's it's a heavy ball.

00:53:39
Speaker 2: Well she, I mean just just had the rory thing going with just hitting lips all day on the putts and had a bad leg, bad calf and she still was vomited out there and fought and it was one of those matches. I mean it was foreign too, but it very It could have turned very easily. The score doesn't quite uh really capture how close.

00:54:02
Speaker 1: It was, all right, so quickly at the end. Here another great women's championship at a cool course this past week, the Yeah I Gee Women's Open at Walton Heath. Lily Avu one her second major of the year. Lily Avu is a U C. L A alum and very familiar to you. I like to refer to you, Jeff, as the mayor of Westwood. I don't know if that title is official, But did you see this coming from Lily? A lot of people seem surprised, But what is your perspective on that?

00:54:37
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, look at look what she's done since the chevron, I mean practically forgotten about her. And you saw her quote, am I ever gonna win again? Which was funny in a way, but it shows you how how quickly you can have it and how quickly you can lose it. So she clearly, I mean I I just her bodyline with yesterday and her her aggressiveness and her confidence was that was kind of stunning. Really, Uh, to shoot those two scores with some win of course, had nice firmness and man, and you know, it was clear the crowd was not for her. They weren't rude, but they were definitely.

00:55:18
Speaker 1: Charlie Hall Charlie Yeah, and she picked up that.

00:55:22
Speaker 2: Energy she had to have. You just tell by the reaction to her makes versus Charlie Hall, they were were very different. And she fended that off quickly and and just finished so beautifully. And yeah, you know it's it's uh and Angeli Inne was right there and and I guess I don't want to get too preachy, but there's two public golf products from southern California. It didn't go through any programs of you know, kind of introductory things. They found the game parents whatever. I know, Angelian it was parents and uh, Lilya too, and and but and drawn to it and having public facilities close by, and I mean you just step back and look right now, you know, on the men's side, and I'm going to include San Diego in this, uh for Southern California because it is Southern California. Uh Xander Schaffle public golf product h up here closer to La Max Homa Colin Marikawa pure public golf products, not not a j g A robotic types. And then on the women's side, you've got Lilya and angel yin you have you have several players on the women's side, and there's really something there. I think that's important for people to understand that that those facilities can produce great players and might even you know, does it almost give her a little bit of a toughness when she gets on a I mean there's no Links golf in southern California, No Heathland Golf and.

00:57:00
Speaker 1: Or like or like Cocua Golf.

00:57:01
Speaker 2: You can you can play, and I know the place is Lily played, and I know the places angel Jin grew up on, and Max and and Patrick Cantley, you though, you know, Virginia Country Club and he's another one of our products, and he's a Poa and Cocula Product Tiger and Phil Poa and Cocuya. No good ranges around here. I mean, I'm really other than the country club. So these players were hardened in some way by that kind of golf. And and I mean Coculea will almost make you, yeah, really love when you get to play the ball on the ground a little because it's such an aerial game and so annoying at times when you hit a great shot and it's a yard short of the green and it comes back at you in the in the in the in the summertime when the is thriving.

00:57:45
Speaker 1: I feel like it forces you to be assertive when you're chipping too. And and maybe some people would say about Bermuda, yes, but you know you can get you can get hung up in that stuff pretty easily if you're uncommitted to to at correct.

00:57:57
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it can make a fool of you. And and yeah, so when you get on this kind of wispy fescue that's that's dry and you have a chance to run it short. I think that one, it allows you to have some imagination that you don't get to use. And it also probably just hardens you, so uh, she's she's incredible, she's uh and she's such a nice person off the course, but she's one of those players you can see when she gets in contention and gets going, she is tough as nails. That was that was that was amazing to see. So uh never never, I don't think she'd been to the Heathlns and I don't think she's I know she hasn't been to the old course because she said that. But she obviously has quite the soul too. She said she's gonna cry when she crosses the bridge. Uh so she uh yeah, just a tremendous win. And it was neat for me to see because I've kind of had a thing about this with our current crop and obviously sometimes I forget to mention, oh yeah, by the way and Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson. But these this new group, you know, you just keep going back to. They started at Metal Lark and Vista Valencia and uh, I mean the place where Colin Maricava played Chevy Chase. It's a club, but I mean it's a it's a semi private kind of it is not a is not a stock thing you see in Florida or Texas, for the Pyramids of Time, some.

00:59:23
Speaker 1: Funky holes there. Yeah, there's some weird stuff.

00:59:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's something to this that that is has made these players better when they're now on these these stages.

00:59:37
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I'm I'm I'm all for the Southern California patriotism here. I'm from Santa Barbara myself, so I completely buy into this idea that it has become a powerhouse. And there's some good evidence right now that that we have some young players coming up who have something a little bit different about them who happened to be coming out of these public facilities in Southern California. And that is good to see in a time when the access to the game for great young players is becoming somewhat more difficult with the lack of CADDY programs, et cetera, the cost of the game, the cost of being a great junior and getting the training you need. It is encouraging to see some of these kids really come out and make something of themselves and show that their experiences are not a disadvantage but in fact might actually have helped them in some way.

01:00:33
Speaker 2: Yeah one point. Yeah, I just would make though I don't want it to be an endorsement of the state of our public golf here because it's awful both in the way a lot of these places are run or and we now we've just added three more courses to the endangered list out of nowhere. Came from nowhere. Thankfully we have the SCGA is a great organization with a guy named Craig Kessler who gets on top of these situations, whether it's advocacy or literally getting into the weeds and explaining and fighting. But we have some just very centrally located public courses suddenly in the San Fernando Valley that have just been put on, some on a taken out as part of a master plan that just got posted. Came out of nowhere. Uh, these all these courses do a lot of play. I mean we're talking three hundred thousand plus rounds a year between them, driving ranges that are awful but still are busy. So yeah, I you know, right now we really could use the golf world and especially the USGA. Having done studies at some of the La City courses, their their their role and kind of I know it's not normally what they do, but uh, there is a there, there is a need especially and also where lily Avoo plays. There's a couple of courses there that people have been dying to turn into housing and or parks and different stuff. So it's a there is a little bit of a crisis element to it too.

01:02:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, as much as there are some encouraging municipal projects going on around the US right now, you know, locally at a lot of the courses where I live, A lot of the courses where I grew up are still for sure under a bit of threat right now, and especially given the water situation in southern California. But in any case, Jeff, we should wrap up there. I've taken up enough of your time depressing. Note I'm not depressing. Note Beller is a great golf course. Let's end on that note. Yeah, yeah, it was.

01:02:33
Speaker 2: It was a home run. I had so much fun watching it. It really was great, and everybody who came up had a blast. And I hope it came off well on TV and look forward to seeing those two players. Well, all the players continue, but we were very privileged to have them in town and have them put out such a great show.

01:02:53
Speaker 1: Jeff, thank you, thank you. This episode of The Friday Golf podcast was produced and edited by Matt Rusius. Thank you, Matt. One big thing that you can do for us right now is leave a rating and review of this podcast wherever you might be listening to it. Our understanding is that Apple podcast reviews and ratings are especially meaningful, So if you happen to be there, then get in there and leave a rating, leave a review, give us some feedback, tell us how you think we're doing, and we would really appreciate it. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back again soon