#341 - Nathan Chapman on Producing for Taylor Swift Before She Had a Record Deal + Producing Taylor’s First Album + How His Wife Sang with Keith Urban on the ‘We Were Us’ Demo

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Speaker 1: You know, I do reference this in this interview, but I met Nathan Chapman at the airport very quickly, and I I kind of went up to him and bothered him and was like, I'm a big fan. Then I just walked off immediately, like the loser I am. But this guy's a big deal, and it's for me. These are the fun ones because hopefully you're listening to this because you you like, like the second level in music, and sure we get the big stars, like the front facing, big stage, sell tickets kind of people, but without people like Nathan Chapman, they wouldn't be doing that. So it's a cool one for me. He has a three time Grammy winning producer. He's a songwriter. As a solo artist, he has seventeen number one as a producer to number one as a songwriter. You would know him probably mostly from being with Taylor Swift from the very beginning, you know, back in two thousand seven he worked with her on Tim McGraw and this song here started that career. So it's pretty cool parents were musicians. He's done so much and we talked about it, and we also talked about what it means to be a producer. I think we hear that term used a lot. I do, but what does it even mean? What's a producer mean? What's a manager mean? What's that? But we talk about him and what he does when he produces an artist, how he produces artists diff with another artists. But I really enjoyed this, Mike, what did you think about this one? I kind of learned, like what the processes of what he actually does, how he goes into like helping an artist find their sound. That was cool. And since Mike heard this and learned it, he's already produced four number one songs himself. Four great job, Mike, than you how to do it? Nathan Chapman follow him Nathan Chapman Official. Or what you can do is just go look and see what he looks like. You can visualize who I'm talking to. I do that all the time too on podcast. I don't follow them sometimes, but I will go up and listen to a podcast. I'll go look him up so I can picture when they're talking. Is that weird? I do that too? Okay, go look up Nathan Chapman at Nathan Chapman Official. Here he is, Episode three forty one. Nathan Chapman. All right, Nathan Chapman is here, which I don't know if you remember we've met before at the airport. Okay, cool, I was like I told micause I met him. I don't know if he remembers me, but he was sitting like right when you walk through, you were sitting at a little bench, and I was like, you know in the Chapman you're like, I said, hey, man, a big fan. And I was like, I'm just gonna get out because I don't know if I'm creeping him out right this minute. And that was our That was our brief interaction. There was no creep factor at all. Okay, I don't like to bother people like big stars like yourself, because I'm sure that people are constantly coming up to you, especially artists who are going hey, if I could just go be nice, And if I had seen you first, I would have had the same thought, like I don't want to bug Bobby, but I want to say high. Yeah, but I'm probably still good looking you were, you wouldn't kind of been intimidated, you know, you've been like, wow, I don't know if I can get up there. I was talking to Tom Douglas in a very similar setting and something that I just held onto until I was able to talk to you formally like this and you can tell me your version of the story. But he speaks very highly of you. That's nice. And I was like, hey, yeah, Tommy hate you. Man. I don't know if you know we're not. But he was talking about raise him up with Keith Urban and there's the part of the song that's very patriotic and now we know it because Eric Church sings that part of the song. And his story was Keith didn't feel comfortable because he's Australian singing that patriotic American party and it was your idea, why don't we pursue Eric Church for this? Is that it wasn't Eric Church specifically, But what happened was, um, we were going to go in the next day and record that song and Keith called me. I think I was a Green Hills mall in the parking lot. All of my big interactions in my career has been in parking lots on the phone. Um like moments that I remember. But he called me and he's like, man, I I can't do that verse. I'm Australian. I respect that patriotic verse too much. I can't sing that the day before. Yeah, but the way Keith and I were working during that time was just me playing a lot of the instruments and in him playing guitars, and so it was just to doo us. So it didn't really matter what song that we did. You know. It wasn't like he was throwing me a curveball as far as like logistics, but um he uh. He said, I've got this other song that I feel like it's really similar in vibe to that, and I'll send you that and we should do that song instead, And I said, okay, cool, send it to me. So he sent it to me and I listened and and I think I emailed him back or I called him, and I was just like, this song is not as good as Raise Them Up? Like Raise Them Up is is the big winner to me between these two songs, And is there anything we can do to change your mind? Because I really feel like it's an amazing song. And I said, what about a duet? Like he's like, I'm not singing that verse? What about a duet? And that was He's like, that's a great idea, and he hung up. And then that was it just that's it could buy click nothing, But that's a great idea. I know what to do. So about an hour later, I get a communication from I can't remember his caller text, and he's like, Eric Church is coming by tomorrow to sing. So that that's how it worked out. And I mean, so, you know, credit to Keith for for thinking of Eric, credit to Eric for being willing to do it late notice, and I guess credit to me for just pushing for a song I really believed in. But that's part of my job as a producers to help, you know, a and R project, And I really believed in that song, and I knew Keith did too, but his his heart was in the right place. I just felt like it was too good a song to just, you know, let it go. The song that didn't end up being cut, I'm not gonna ask you what it was, But did it ever get cut by anyone later? I don't know because I can't remember it. I could go through my emails and find it probably, but um it was. It was really good. And that's the thing about Raise Him Up or any song like that, Like I remember, the story goes, is that Abby Adams who Rabbie Burke Culture when I worked with her at Sony and now she's at Red Light as a publisher. She sent that song to Keith and the subject line said song of the Year. And Keith told me and he's like, when people do that, I usually think it's, oh, this is gonna be a terrible song, you know, because people don't talk stuff up. They don't stuff like that if it's if it's real. But he listened to and he's like, oh, yeah, that is that good, you know, with your resume of producing albums. I was just talking to one of my managers. I have two main managers. One of his name is Tom Betchy, and he said I was just with them, yeah, talking about producing, you know, and he went through it Lacey or Thursday or Friday. Yeah, He's like, I love him. I'm super excited he's coming over. And so I was thinking about because that's the infancy of that project that you guys might do. I don't know, I don't know if you're doing it or not. But before you take a project, or let's say you just say I will produce this artist, what is the pre of what you have to do before they come in and actually start recording. Okay, that's a great question. Um. I think that it's like measure twice cut once, you know, in construction, it's like the more thought you can put into the project before you get the studio, the better. Sometimes that's the artist is obsessively overthinking what their record is going to be, and I'm there to just kind of help realize it. Do you mean in concept or in sound or because again, your job is all encompassing, like you're you're producing the record, you're the guy, your vocal everything has got to go through your lens with the help of you know, the artist, but your name on it. But when you mean they're overthinking in what way do a lot of artists overthink their their music? Well, it's different for everybody. I think that. Um. For someone since we were talking about Keith, for someone like Keith like he has a real, really clear idea of what his next step is artistically, what his next what the next paragraph is in the conversation with his fans. Um, all of our big artists in country music they are having we don't realize it because we're all fans. I'm a country music fan, I'm a pop music fan. I love all music. But one thing that country music artists are doing, whether the fans really as it or not, is they're having a conversation with you. They're telling you stories that they want to get a reaction from you. Whether it's you know, something that we're kind of used to about being on a back road, or whether it's like, you know, something like where Kane Brown's move where he kind of did that song about love and everybody coming together and it's like whatever, you know, Miranda might be killing a guy. You know, it's like we're it's basically we're being told stories by storytellers, and any great story doesn't just say the same thing over and over. There's like an arc to it. So depending on where someone is in their career, depending on where they are in their relationship with their fans, is where they're going to be in that story. And you know, if when you think back to great artists like Cash and Haggard and you know McIntyre, McBride, I mean, Hill, whatever it is, it's like you when you look back on an artist career after they've been doing it for a couple of decades, you feel like you really have been on a journey with them. If you're a die and you're buying every record, listen to every song, and that's what I feel like, Um what I mean by over obsessed and the music part of that is kind of subordinate to the story. In country music and pop music, it's like, you know whatever, the storytelling is almost in the musical sides. Like remember when Bieber put the song out the where Are You Now? Had that weird whistle sound in it, and everyone's like, whoa what is that? You know? That was kind of his way of talking his fans, is like, Hey, this is where we're going now musically, We're doing this, Now, we're doing that, then we're gonna do Was that song Lonely he had? It was like yeah. So it's like I feel like in pop it's like it's it's a similar journey with an artist, but it's a lot more about the musicality of things and where we're going sound wise, and what are we partying or are we crying? Or With country music, it's like where are we in our lives right now? Like where are we going through? What are we hurting about? What are we happy about? What are we feeling? Where? What when we blow off steam? How do we want to do that, or we had a bonfire, or we had a club. You know, there's all those things. And I feel like I feel like the best records that I've made have been with artists who have a really clear idea of what's next, what they're trying to say, and who they're trying to be and where they are with their fans. So um. So Like with Keith, it's like he had a really clear vision of what that Fuse album was supposed to be, and in his perfect world, no other album does that. That album did that, and the next album does this, and um. Someone like when I was meeting with Tom Betchy with that new band Homegrown that I'm gonna work with. I love those guys, and Tom's a great manager. Autumn House is working with that too with that project too. Um, they're at the beginning of the story. How do you start the story? You know? I think that's one thing about country music that I don't want to get lost. The more we um kind of do business like l A and like pop, It's like, I don't want to lose the story. That's my biggest thing. And I feel like the great artists, the people we really look up to and country music. They they have that so extremely a macro is what I'm hearing, because you're like, story whide are we gonna We're gonna then figure out everything that goes inside of the bucket that you've you've now told me we need to fill. And so if it's a new artist, are you there's a lot of songs? Are you then picking and cutting songs based on not how good they are, but if it's a tie, okay, which one better defines where you are right now? And making this project? Like all the decisions even sounds inside sonically, all those decisions are kind of based on I'm assuming some communication you've had before, like where are you? And now we're gonna make sure everything we put in this bucket is exactly on brand with that well, and what's fun about a new artist is that there may not be a bucket, and the bucket kind of forms around the water, so to speak. You know, it's like sometimes it's like, okay, what's gonna work? Like they have to get on the map, you know, So what what of all the songs you've written in the last year, which ones do we feel like might move the needle? It used to be a radio conversation, and now it's both the radio and streaming conversation and Exam and of like what's gonna work, what what's going to connect? Is it going to be a streaming hit and or is it going to be a radio hit or is it going to be something that Exam will play or is it just something that will work great live. It's like you just gotta move that needle first and almost like figure it out after that. And a lot of times a brand new artist, they don't have fans, so they don't have a conversation yet, so they don't know what they're supposed to say. I don't know who the people are who are really going to be drawn to them, what age group they're going to be, and all that. We'll stick with Keith for a second. That's um we're talking about him, knowing him a little bit, not only personally, but you know, I've been to his studio in his house and I've seen him and he's all over the place, just as what I see if it's just him and I. He's moving, he's turning things up, and he's like, well just watch this point at this go here, oh my, And you're like Why is he like that to work with two where he's got so much energy and he's doing nine things at once, and he's got visions that he's explaining, but it's almost you can't understand his vision because it's a vision? Is that what working with Keith is? Like? Yeah, it's awesome. I mean he's he's Definitely Before I worked with him, I was like a bucket list artist for sure. Um. And the first song we ever did was the song with Miranda We were uss that was the song. It was John Knight, Jimmy Robbins, and Nicole Galleon's all their first number one And that was the first song I did with Keith, And um, it was a funny story. We were making that song and he didn't have Miranda's vocal on obviously because we were just building the track, and um, he said, uh, I really wish we had a female vocal on here at just a placeholder, just to kind of get us through the production while we're building the track. And I was like, well, my wife's upstairs and she's a great singer. And he's like, oh, go get her, And so I went upstairs and my wife was like seven months pregnant, she had adult braces, and she was finishing a Chick fil A sandwich and she had crumbs on her belly, you know, from her belly sticking out. And I was like, hey, baby, Keith's downstairs. He wants you to come sing on this track. And she was like, what do you hate me? I said, come on, just come down here, it'll be fun. She had a great time. She and Keith hit it off. They like had a great like rapport and everything, and and she, you know, she like, you know, got a little bit dulled up before she came downstairs because she wanted to put it do a good impression. And so like three days later, out of nowhere, she goes, didn't Keith have the best stense smelling cologne? Oh? Always everybody says that about Keith. Yeah, And I'm like, are you thinking about here? And three days later, out of nowhere, you bring this up and she was like, yeah, he did smell really good. And I was like, ah, did did you get to keep? Do you have that just to keep for your own personal Yeah, it's only the hard drive. Yeah that's pretty cool. Yeah, she has you know, a work tape or a demo or whatever whatever stage you wear Um of her recording and Keith Urban Song and she's a great songwriter and singer. She um, she kind of took herself out of the game for us to have kids and stuff. But um, when she was in the game, she was. She had like a Bonnie Rate sing goal with that Bonnie did with Nora Jones as a duet, and then she had a couple of songs on the Chief record with Eric and her Carolina record came um that Eric still plays live. That they did a half hour at the Opera together just Eric and Steph on stage. She she opened from Merle Haggard at the Rhyme in one time. Um, she had a bunch of other cuts and remember the band Gypsy. Yeah, she had a song that they recorded of hers that was really good. Just random things, but she was definitely like she was the reason I got to work with Taylor Swift. So she she was writing songs at Jody Williams. So that's what white year was that And I want to touch on this, but then I want to go back in your life. But what year was it? Where are you and Taylor first met? I think it was two thousand six, maybe she thousand seven, shou'd have been held fourteen or fifteen. I have a friend that's a songwriters shotten you know quite a few. I don't think he even care if I told the story. I won't say who he is in case he does care. Yeah, And they came to him to write for her, and he was like, I'm not riming a fourteen year old girl. He's like, I'm an adult man. I don't know what to write for a fourth I've heard that story from several writers. So he was like, it was nothing against her personally, but I was a man in my thirties. I don't know what to write. So I said no. And so now he's like, I'm an idiot. He was like, I'm the bad No. I mean, look, it's like poker, like you get you get dealta to three off suit, you fold and then the flops to two two three. Well you how would you know? I make a decision as best you can in the moment. And he was like, statistically, he was right. Most fourteen year old, fifteen year old people who come to Nashville and make records, they either work or barely, or they don't work. You know, Taylor was definitely an exception. So mathematically you gotta say, like he did, he made the call that he thought he should make, and yeah, I still messed up. But what's what's the red what's the red drink over there? Oh it's like crystal lighters. Oh yeah, have a drink. There was a funny was it Burt perishn or is that how you say? And Tom Sigura where they had that huge laughing fest over the cool aid in his water cup. I don't know if you guys saw that. So we've had a couple of guys on recently which we haven't had m a whole lot of this. But they grew up here in Nashville, and for for people to grow up here, they are either in music and they're never getting out of it, or they hate music, and then they finally decide later on they they're like, oh, yeah, I shouldn't have got out of it. So what was it for you? It was I grew up on my um my mom and dad are Christian singers and they're on the end of their career now there about to fully retire. They try to retire. Um they were they moved here in the seventies and my dad had a band and they were signed to Pat Boone's record label. And I grew up on the road. My dad told me when I was potty trained, I could go and tour with him. He'd go out for thirty days at a time and an RV. It was a Christian rock band before Christian rock even really exists, before Stryper, Yes, um and uh. The genre c CM is named after a magazine called Contemporary Christian Music. C c M was the name of the magazine and that's how they named the genre. And my dad's bands in the very first issue of that magazine. And he's got a copy of his house. What is your earliest memory of your parents doing music? Well, they did music that was geared towards family ministry. It was like Christian music, like sermons with songs and sprinkled in and they would do like marriage conferences and things about raising kids. And they had a song called Daddy, Please find a Reason that was about a dad, a guy who wants to leave his family and he can't think of a reason to stay. And then the chorus is its little kid saying, well, Daddy, can that that reason can be me? If you want to stay here, you know, stay for me. So I was the three I was three years old when I sang the chorus to that song. Do you remember being three? Just in general, being three? Having a memories crazy to me kind of. I mean, it's just I think I remember more because I've created the version of the story that my parents have told me. You know, But I remember being in the studio. Studio has always smelled like um, glue and coffee and cedar would. Studios don't smell like that anymore, but obviously when where the coffee smell came from. The glue came from the tape. If you smell a real tape, it's kind of like smelling black powder and a shotgun shell after you shoot a shot. You know, it's like a really distinctive smell that you'll remember, or a cigarette smoke in the air when you're a kid at the you know, the fair grounds or something. But the smell of glue and then they were all built out of cedar would there was like a I don't know why, but I remember I remember the smell of studios back then. It was really kind of intoxicating. You knew you you could close your eyes. I know you were in a studio back then, did you as a seven or eight year old when you do probably have memories that the mind started around five or six, did you always know like, man, I'm just gonna do music like them. I'm gonna do it because of them. I'm like, why did you want to do music? Well? I I loved the process of the making the records. I remember being in the studio and watching the producers talk to my dad and my dad getting mad about stuff later, like he'd he'd be upset about a snare drum sound or something. Um. My parents were signed to a star Starm star Stong Records in the eighties and eighties seven they left and went independence, and my dad paid for the record out of his own pocket and then they would print him and they printed him over in Silver Sylvan Park area, a little factory that's where they got and I'd go with him to pick them up and they it was very like, it was very proud, it was like practical and very like hands on. It was like I'm paying money for this record, I'm printing it and then I'm gonna take it out and sell it to people. So from a very early age, like I really understood what it was to be an artist who was trying to make it, and my mom and dad struggled till I was out seven, and then they had a kind of a big break and did really well after that. Uh, in their in their world there they want a double ward and they did really well for what they wanted their goal. They met all their goals. It's pretty cool you saw them hustle though. Yeah, that's a cool thing to remember, to actually see your parents hustle, but to see it pay off. Yeah, like those together, that's a package almost can't pay for, like a big learning lesson what was the big you say a big break? Was it a song? Was it? There was a there's an organization called Focus on the Family, and they did a film series where they filmed two or three days of a conference and then they sent that film to all the churches in America and they had like a set in that so when every church in America watched my parents singing, the head of the organization kind of hand picked them to be the musical guest, even though they were really small time. He liked because they were a family ministry organization. My parents have doing family ministry music. It just fit when I was growing up. I saw a lot of hypocrisy from other artists. My parents actually walked what they talked. They still do. I'm grateful for that. But I saw a lot of hypocrisy out there within the Christian music world, and I think that I got what I remember. I kind of when I was a teenager, I was like, all right, I don't want to do Christian music for a ministry, because if I'm going to do music, I want to do it for the money. That's what I've told myself when I was a kid, you know, like seventeen eighteen. I was like, I like, I know how this works, I know how studios work, I know what it is to make a record, and I know I can make money doing it. But I didn't want to be a hypocrite and out of a feeling of guilt be a Christian artist or a Christian writer out of just an obligation to my faith. So I made a conscious decision to just kind of say, I'll minister and I'll have my faith and I'll express that and I'll be a I'll be a you know, in God's work in a different way besides the actual music that I make. But I mean, I do have some like lines in the Sand, I won't cross as far as like, you know, certain content or could you listen to secular music? I was allowed to. Yeah, yeah? And what what did you choose at those formative twelve thirteen, fourteen years. I was obsessed with Sting and Pink Floyd and Seal. Did your parents have conversations with you? Because I find it so interesting that they were like, we're Christian artists, we're Christians, and we're going to allow you to listen to music that is not what we're involved in. And also maybe this music doesn't have the same value as you're taught. But do they do they talk to you about that? There there was a worship component in the actual music. Like I think my my dad he was a big time into Vangelis, the guy who did the Chariots of Fire theme. There's a lot of different He's kind of like a Hans Zimmer of his time. My dad loved that stuff. You love Beth Neilson Chapman songs. He loved Vern gosden Um. He would always play me a Madman Across the Water Belton John and he really found worshiping the just the music. It's like the words were kind of just like whatever to him for that for the secular music. So it's like, while at the same time they were making music, it was very like teaching and ministry and and scripture based for him, Like listening to Gordon Lightfoot wasn't like a sin because it's just great. It's an excellent work. It's like an excellent version of that craft of being a singer songwriter. My dad appreciated that, and he found the worship part of that. So I feel like sometimes there's moments when I listened back to something I did and I feel like, no, I'm not gonna tell anybody, but I was kind of worshiping when I was even just playing guitar or like doing that different chord change that makes me feel something, you know, It's like to me that stuff can be kind of a worship experience. When did you pick up an instrument? Um? I was three when I started playing drums, seven started piano, and ten I started guitar. When you're three and a drums, are you just hitting stuff or do you actually at three? Can you? Yeah? Yeah, I can play three, So that's gotta be your dad would have to show that off. He was like Hey, guys, come here. What's this right? I mean, you have to beat the three year old that's being celebrated. This is a theory working theory. If you're three and you're doing something pretty good and people are saying, look at this kid, and you're being rewarded for the pretty good, it then makes you want to be rewarded more. It's like if I go on stage and I tell a joke, it's pretty funny. I first time this war works. I should learn more jokes. I'm so I would imagine that that early, Hey you're really good at this kid, we celebrate you. Probably inspired you to continue learning. Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. I remember I picked out the Chariots of Fire theme when piano from here, and I remember like my mom and dad and their friends, and everybody's like, whoa, I can't believe you did that. And I'm thinking, like, well, the notes are right there. You know, it's not that big a deal to me, but um, I think the encouraging those little wins like that is is huge. And my six year old, he was five things like last summer he got a drum kit, and um, he would pull his arm into his shirt to give himself only one arm and then play pour some Sugar on Me, helay, but only with one arm, because that's what was on YouTube, you know, watching the Deaf Lepard drum but he didn't have but he has feat pads right well. But my kid, he's just like and he had long hair at the time he was he was he's such a cool kid. You know how some people are just cool, Like you're cool? No, you are. Now that I have a cool kid, I always wondered how do people get to be cool? Right, I'm not cool and I and if anyone argues with me, they're just trying to make me feel better. I'm not a cool guy. My six year old is a cool kid. And he would play deaf Leopard and and then I have a singing pour some Sugar on me and playing guitar and he's like, no, Dad, not like that. You need to go. And he's like producing my vocal, you know, And I'm like, it's just in his blood. He's just the cool kid. So he he's playing drums. It's just cool. But um, do you see this is so interesting because I wonder if your dad saw that in you that you're now seeing in him. Do you see you and him musically. Yeah, I mean if I if you think bank to you have five or six and it's a difficult thing to do. Do you see you there? I feel like, well, I know that my six year old looks like me. My parents say it's like the Twilight Zone. Watching him, it's like having me as a kid again. Um. I feel like that there is definitely you either kind of have that gifting of music or you don't. And if you don't, you can learn it. It's not like you can't learn it, but there's definitely kind of like it can be a gifting. I think my eight year old has that with math, Like he'll do really hard math problems and he's like, I don't know how I figured that out, but I just know it. Um my ten year old daughter, she can she kind of has like a novelist thing. She can just write stories that are actually like really good. Um. None of my kids are showing like a really uh you know, like gifting in sports, you know, they're all kind of like at the moment and you never know until they grow up. But right now I'm not seeing like, oh, he's going to be a huge athlete. But I think that I can see how my parents probably looked at me and they were like, oh, he's got whatever that musical thing is that part of the brain just that responds to or learns. I think it just makes so much sense to me. Like that's the thing about I don't think. I don't think you can build a career on a natural talent in any you know, avenue of life. But you can definitely if it just makes sense to you, you know, Like that's the thing. There's a lot of things about life that do do not make sense to me, and I can try and learn them, but I will never be as good as someone who just instinctively kind of has like and the advantage over me. That's interesting. I struggle with music, and I play, and I play as part of my comedy act, and but I struggle with understand ending it right. But but my you know buddy who plays with me, who understands it really well, he can't read something and just remember it for the rest of his life. Where I can. I can read. I can recall things that I've ever only read once, or I can remember going, Okay, I know I've read that, Well, what do I think? And it's there, But it's just our brains working and respond to different things and such creatively in such different ways. So it's fascinating to me when I see parents and then kids who naturally have it, because I don't know, did your parents learn it or did they have it? And if can you learn it and then pass it down where it's natural. I think you can, because I think that there's definitely a big advantage to being around something when you're a kid, you know. But I mean, like you're let's say your parents. Let's say they didn't know anything about music, and we obviously I'm not going to the answer this. We're just gonna be dumb guys and talk about this for a second, like we have an idea what's happened in the world. But let's say your parents they music did not come easy to them, and but they studied hard. They maximize their potential and they're pretty good at what they do. But they figured out how to do it, had a huge career them learning that, and then they have you, and to you it naturally comes. I wonder if the generation above can learn it and then present it naturally through genetically. I think if I'm taking a wild guest from and that's what we're doing totally by the way anyone wants. I'm sure there's like pediatric like pediatricians who are psychologists who could answer this for for real, but I would guess. I would guess yes, because I think if my dad had been really into finance, just I think there's an osmosis to hearing your parents have conversations. You know. Um, if my dad was like big and like, if he was a day trader, I probably would understand what you know, options are. Like I just was on the phone this morning with my friend who was trading options and calls and puts and all this stuff, and I told him. I was like, I don't understand, and he's like what And I was like, I just don't understand. And he's like, well, you're you know, you're buying and selling the difference between two prices, And I'm like, I really so. I think if you if you grew up around like think about like, you know, guys that are professional athletes, you know, they're all they talk about with their friends, you know. I think my kids here are genetically you can't be a professional athlete unless you are somewhat genetically blessed. Absolutely, But unless you're a bowler, anybody, I gotta anybody to learn to bowl, but other than a bowler, but I have a I'm One of my good friends is Steve Hutchinson, who's a Hall of Fame linebacker or offensive lineman. And he obviously genetically, I mean, it's like he's a different species than me. Like he's so big and and imposing as a human. But you talk to the guy, he is brilliant, and he he makes you think that football is more of a strategy game than a like the physicality is almost like it. You either have that or you don't. But the difference between a professional and a not professional would be the brain side of that. You said it too, You don't think anyone can succeed on talent alone, and I agree with that. My most talented friends are often the ones that were so talented they didn't have to learn how to do it, or have to develop a drive, or or or have an instinct. They had to sharpen because it was so easy to them that when it got to the point to where it was time to go next level, it wasn't easy to them anymore. So they weren't comfortable with having to grow into that where I had no talent whatsoever, which is why I'm here. We are. I've been crafting and cutting the whole time. You know, you're a great communicator though, I mean, and asked my wife, well, I mean you are when you're at your job professionally, I think I'm a plus. I mean, I've listened to your stuff and it's it's it's it's really inspiring and interesting the whole time. I mean you, you and John Mayer had a great banter back and forth where I was like, Wow, these these guys are really good at talking, like and and Bobby is so good at and John even complimented you in the interview. I don't know if remember that. He's like I do, Yeah, I think about everybody got a bet everymore. I'm like all right. It was like he was like, wow, you're really good at asking questions, and like, I think that that's but see, I think that the musical ability that someone has is almost like being a really big guy and wanting to play football. It's like, okay, you're you know, you're really tall. You want to be a professional basketball player, Well you're ten percent of the way there. Now you need that you probably need that in order to do it at a really high level, you need that extra ten percent. But it's only you know, it's only a little bit. And I think mine came from just being around the business, being around music watching. I mean, when you're three years old and you're in the studio with an engineer and a producer, I mean, there's it's got to have an effect on you. A lot of accidental learning. Yeah, you said, Osmosis. I mean you're you're picking up all this stuff. You don't evenalize you're learning. It's just the culture. Yeah, I mean I think my dad always called me a Nascar kid. He's like, you're like a Nascar kid because you know, because those sons, always the juniors, always grew up and become NASCAR drivers. And he's like, you just were around this. That's what he That's how he explained it to me. They were trying to talk you out of it, like, hey, maybe you try to be a lawyer, Maybe you try ever or they ever, Like, no, they're very I'm very lucky. Uh sportive. Did you believe Nashville? I did. I went to college. That's where I met my wife, and I quit the family band to go to college. And my sister cried, like she wept for a day. She's like, you're breaking up the family. I told my parents. I was like, I can't, I can't. I can't be in the family band anymore. I gotta go be my own guy. And I actually quit music. I gave up music to go to college. I had had all kinds of music here. I gave it all to my neighbor. I just went to college with like a guitar. And where did you go to school? Lee University in Cleveland, Tennessee. Okay, so you stayed somewhat close, but you did leave Nashville and and you go with just a guitar. So that was just for me. I was going to be an English professor. That's what I wanted to do. That was your rebellion. You know, some kids I do some crazy stuff. Yours was the ultimate rebellion, was to be an English press. I like it. I'm here for it. Do because your parents have history in Christian music, and I mean, you have a double ward yourself. Right. Do people think that you and Steven Kartis Chapman are brothers? Uh? They think we're family at some point. A lot of times people get confused with that actually or whatever because he's older than you. Obviously, Well, Steven Curtis Chapman would be known as Steve Chapman if it wasn't from my mom and dad, because he so, my dad is Steve Chapman, my mom is Annie Chapman, and and uh by the mid eighties they were pretty big deal. They hadn't had their big break yet, but they were definitely had record deal and they were on the radio and stuff and um. And then Steve Steven Curtis Chapman got a record deal and he everyone called him Steve Chapman. And they were like, dude, you gotta figure out your name. You can't. There's already a Steve Chapman because my dad was the lead singer of his band, and then he was a duel with my mom, and uh so he's like, well, how I don't know how you know, what do I do to differentiate myself? So they just went with his full equal name. Whenever you're you, did you graduated, h lee? Yeah? Okay, you finish? Did you not want to be a professor anymore? Did you try it for a little bit? So I was in college and I wanted to get I went a little bit late, so I wanted to get done quick, so I went on a summer class, a summer course to get my language credit knocked out. Went to Normandy, France with my college group to do a six week crash course in French and get eight hours of credit so I could graduate early. And my wife is from Virginia, from the DC area, and she majored in French and English at j m U. And she was working at the little bed and Breakfast in in Normandy for for a summer job to go over as with her French skills. Yes, we met in France, in a little town called Franceville in Normandy. Okay, that's funny. It's also just funny you'd meet another American in France while you're studying. Yeah, I didn't. I mean they were they had, like, uh, a couple of American kids who were just there for a summer job, like a cool summer job. Do you guys hit it off immediately? Yeah. And the way we met because they told me they said there will be a guitar there someone They said, someone on the staff has a guitar, and that was my wife. And she's a songwriter and singer and she one of the first nights we hung out, we just played each other songs we had written, but not in a like oh, you're so good. It was like a competition. She was like, oh, you think that song is good? While I wrote this one and it was obviously she was better than me. She's really good and um so we met and then we moved back to and and she said, I've always dreamed of going to Nashville, and I said, well, I know how that works, you know, And but I didn't have any plans to do music. But then when she said I've always wanted to be a singer songwriter Nashville and um so, I said, well, you know, I know how that works. So we I started making um like demos for her songs, and that's how she ended up getting signed to Jody Williams Music. And she started co writing with Liz Rose. And Liz heard my demos that I was making for stuff. I was building all the tracks, playing everything. Liz heard my Stephanie demos and said, well, will you do demos for me too? I was like sure, So then she started. Liz started writing with Taylor and Liz asked, Taylor, can my demo, got demo. These songs were writing and they were like our song and Picture to Burn and Tim McGraw. So I was doing all the demos for Liz and Taylor as they were writing, and uh so, yeah, that's I quit, you know, I quit, stormed out of the musical world and didn't want to go back and to impress the girl. I got back into it. So Liz who I love and and no, Liz, she'said produced these demos. But how produced were the demos? Were they you know, you got instruments, drums or was it, you know, just Taylor a vocal? I don't like what was the what was the early Taylor demos? Like they sound like the first record? Did did a lot of them turned into the record? Uh? Tied Together with a Smile is just the demo upgraded. It's one of the tracks on that first album. And uh, but we we went in and recut a lot of that stuff. Because I didn't have a budget. I was just playing everything myself. You know, demos are still kind of cheap. You try to make as cheap as you can. But then when I remember when um Scott and Taylor called me on speaker phone and said Hey, you know, we want you to go in and track some songs. It was basically an audition. Scott was like this guy, the demo guy, because Taylor, she had been in the studio with a couple of different people, and she just felt like that the demos we were making really captured what she wanted. And I was twenty eight, she was fourteen or fifteen, and neither one of us had a clue what we were doing. We're just making music. I certainly didn't have any clue what was going on. I was just making songs. Why do you think she was drawn to what you two were doing versus what she had experienced so far. Well, I'm mean I was playing all the instruments I had. There was a couple of times I would bring in bass and drums from rhythm section guys. But I was playing all the guitars. And I think it just I think it just sounded younger maybe then, like the way even now, it's like, you know, there's the track guy. I'm making air quotes for people who are only listening the track guys in Nashville where they programmed the drums and they get a sample from splice. Well, sometimes that stuff is just captures of the magic, and it just sounds like what is going on or what's what's happening. It doesn't sound old and stodgy. I think some for some reason when we would make those demos and then she would go in the studio with a producer and with a band, and it would almost kind of like take the cool out of it. I guess that's and it has happened to me. I've been the guy who's took taking the cool out of songs where you have a demo that's just awesome, it's really cool, and I'm sure you've heard those. I'm sure artists like, hey, I just wrote this song, what do you think of this? You know, before it's even been recorded. Then you go and record it and it's better technically, but it's just not as exciting, you know. And there was something to what me and Taylor were doing where it was like she was writing these songs that were super oddball for the time. You know, Tim McGraw was the title of one of the songs. You know, they were not they didn't fit anywhere. And then I was doing these productions that really didn't have any business being in Nashville. I was more. I was trying to make like pop music with country instruments kind of thing. So we were just a good fit with that. And um, she just she went to Scott Borsht and she's like, I really think these demos just sound more like me. And and he, to his credit, he gave he gave me a budget. He gave a demo guy a budget, had never really done anything, and gave me a shot. So when Taylor's making Tim McGraw, which you just brought up, which is a good example, it didn't sound or feel or it wasn't like what was happening here at the time. Well, I mean it kind of it wasn't It wasn't, you know. I mean her her youth and her her songwriting, her perspective, her story, which was, you know, I'm in high school and I'm feeling I'm feeling these feelings and I'm feeling rejected or I'm feeling like I'm in love, and you know that combined with a twenty eight year old guy who doesn't really know what he's doing. But it came together, you know, do you have to when you're producing And it doesn't have to be Taylor, but it can be. But somebody young who's a teenager. I'm just assuming you have to handle them in a room differently than you would handle an artist that's been there many, many times. Just the psychological part of it's tough. So with Taylor, you don't know what you're doing, she doesn't know what she's doing. How do you communicate? Okay, I don't know. If we like how that vocal went, let's do it again. What was that communication? Like? Well, I think we didn't realize it at the time, but because neither one of us had any kind of reputation or any kind of like, you know, success, it was just honest, you know. I remember one time I was like, you don't sound good today, go home, we'll work in tomorrow, you know. And would I say that to a big famous person, you know, especially not when I was young. Um, And then she would be like, you know, dude, that track is horrible. You know. I mean, we're just saying what we felt. And there was no I wasn't worried about making a big famous person mad. And then sometimes I feel like new artists when you're in the room, like me being a more of a veteran and then being a new artist, I feel like they want to They want to tell themselves that I must know more than them because I'm older and been doing this longer. But there's a beauty in just like being super honest with people, and if you do it out of love, and you do it because there's a common goal of making something great and then hopefully it doesn't offend when you make the record. Did you do the entire album? Yeah, so you make the first album. And this is the most cliche question that I can ask, but I just did you feel like there was a shot at something right there, something more than just a good record that may have a couple of hits, which what everybody wants. Did you feel like, all right, we might have something groundbreaking? Well, I will. You have to put it in the context of where where I was at the time, where she was a young artist, you know, fifteen, and I think Billy Gilman was and Leane Rhymes were the only two kind of like people who had been successful before her, and Scott Borsheta and Big Machine Records had two artists besides Taylor, jack Ingram and Daniel Peck and I remember, collectively, between those two artists, Big Machine had only sold maybe fifty tho albums as a label. So my hopes were high from a creative place and from knowing that Taylor was really really good, like that she was very very special as far as like songwriting talent, her communication skills and as an artist. But business wise, I was like, this probably won't be that big a deal because the same reason you mentioned my songwriter friend earlier, Like you said, you just looked at the landscape, he saw what was being created and sold, and it probably just looking at the numbers, mathematically, wasn't going to be that big of a deal, even if it was great, even if it was the greatest breaking thing ever, mathematically, it probably wasn't going to be as big of a deal as as you had hoped. Well, the story of Big Machine Records could be its own documentary of like a David Goliath thing where Scott, you know, he had investors pull out like he had. I mean it was they were painting the walls in the building. The paint was still wet. It smelled like wet paint in the Big Machine office. When we were stuff in the envelopes to send out her first single. It was so new and I've been in Nashville, grew up here long enough to see companies start and fail, you know, so I wasn't like if I if I said I was some kind of savant could see the future, that this was all gonna work, I'd be lying. But a lot of people in town didn't. No, it's I will say this. It's not like I didn't believe. It's just I didn't know. I was just like this, this could go either way. You know Timograw tear drops on my guitar, our song Picture to Burn. I mean I should have said no, you know inside of that were there any of those songs, and it could have been could have been a deeper cut to where you're like, wow, she is quite the communicator here, like I've been working when people around here they can't do this communication at this level. Yeah. Well, I mean our song she wrote by herself when she was like fourteen, and if you think about the lyric of that course, it's really genius. That was kind of the first time I was like, oh, dang, like who is this person? Because our song is a slamming screen door, you know, sneaking out late, tapping on your window, talking on the phone. You know, it's the way you laugh. If you think if you break that down, like if you put that chorus in a in a college literature course, you'd be like, okay, our song the course. Everything she's describing as sounds, you know, it's like slamming screen door, tapping on a window. It's like, that's pretty genius, you know for basically a you know, a kid, a minor, for you know, writing that kind of stuff by herself. I was like, this is really next level writing. And I was always a fan of of of her songwriting ability and and understood how good it was. But like I said, it was like, I don't know if it's gonna work, but it's really good. So it works. That fresh record works obviously. Do you worry that as the guy who didn't know what he was doing? This is what you said that Now, Okay, well she has to success. She'sy's probably gonna get somebody now really good, Like do you worry about that or do you go for Oh, they have to go with me? We just did this together. Oh. I mean I think that from the first record to the second record, there we there wasn't any time to catch your breath. I mean, we are just hit just hit the ground running, so the Fearless came. We started recording Fearless right away because she was writing those songs, and then Speak Now was definitely a lot of pressure because we had one Album of the Year at the Grammys for Fearless, and we were like, Okay, everyone in the world's gonna listen to this album. That was a difference between Fearless and Speak Now. When we made Fearless was like people might hear this, you know, but speak Now is like everyone's gonna listen to. Do you think if you could go back in time and there was more of a gap between record one and Record two, do you think with success that have been like let's let's go to somebody who's done this with some bigger artists. Do you think that you were obviously not lucky because of your skill set, but lucky in the timing that since you were just going, you got to keep going. And if there would have been a longer break, they would have looked for a more established producer, and eventually they did. Um, you know, Max Martin came in that stuff though, right, and that's and that's how I sleep at night. I'm like, oh, she she didn't fire me, she just changed genre. Oh I always I always felt that way. I felt like, you know, that was a switch because she switched. But I just think it's so amazing that she had to continue making She didn't have to be you guys kept making music between one and two. And if there would have been a break, that have been like, hey, the record was such a success. Maybe we have great in producers. Yeah, well they yeah, and the insecurity that we all have as music makers would would say that, yes. I was thinking that. I was also just really focused on enjoying what we were doing and trying to make the best music we could and and I figured, like it can't go forever, you know, But I was grateful that she came back. And yeah, if there had been a long time, or if the first record hadn't done very well, like the first record sold a lot too. Yeah, if if if something had happened where it was like real, you know, face plant, like on a release or something, I think that that would have that would have happened earlier. But we were we were together from the first album, second third half of Red and then I had one track, so it was like really good time. Was that a call like, hey, we just we're not gonna use you anymore. Was that or just a fade out? I mean I've been fade a by a lot of people. I know what that How? How did how did that go? It was? It was handled as best as it could be. It's it's never easy to to I mean, we were working together, you know, a lot for a long time, and it's but I I'm so proud of her for all the different moves she's made. She's somehow she's managed to stay relevant and important for so for so many records, and that's just not easy. Like people don't really do that, you know. Yeah, people don't stay number one famous and number one success for that amount of time, Like you have a window sometimes it's four to six to seven years. Well you're just a plus. You could stay a plus and a mine is and B plus and go back day. But she has stayed legitimately A one for what fifteen years. It's it's been crazy to see. I mean she might be if you were to weigh it out, Brittany Taylor, I'm thinking of just like the most famous person that's not the President, Oprah. You know, there's only a few of them that you could just go. They have been famous and super successful the whole time, and you have a you have a massive part of that, so you have you produce all so many records. Do you ever get in a room? M hm? Because I do this and I don't want to admit that I do this. But after you do something for a long time at a high level, it almost becomes easy and you just kind of fall into place and times you gotta recheck yourself. Does that ever happen to you? You're just being asleep at the wheel? Yeah? I hate to say asleep at the wheel. And it's a hard thing to to admit to where you're crushing it and you're like, well, I just want to keep crushing it. I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing. You almost don't challenge yourself because it's happening at a high level. So why would you challenge yourself any differently than you have been because you But when I do that, I tend to, uh, it tends to tend to get a little stale. Yeah. I think that. Fortunately for me, I have had just enough failures to keep me awake. Um, but were you failing in those early once you you're pros these records. I gotta imagine everybody's coming to you then. Yeah, and no, did you have any big bombs? You know, I said the artist. But records that you did with they were like what man, just didn't work out? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, how long do we have? Okay? Good? I'd like to hear that because it's like day you just touched it turned to gold. No, no, no, And that's the beautiful thing about this business. And Dan Huff and I were talking of a while back, and he actually he was on a podcast that Kevin Cadish and I started about songs that were written that have never been hits. UM and Uh, you'd be a great guest on there. I've written a lot of songs more hits, or a lot of songs that you believe should have been a hit, and it hasn't come The podcast hasn't come out yet. Season one's done. It's called Uncut Gems. I'm sure it'll be out soon. Cia is helping us figure out where we're gonna land it. UM. But Dan was on that UM podcast talking from his perspective about songs that he believed in that haven't been cut, that were never hits and UM, and he said the beautiful thing about this business is that no one really keeps track of the failures. You know. He's like, as we're like baseball players, Like you've got three hundred for your career and you're considered a genius. Well that's sevent of all your attempts didn't work. You know, there's a long list of things that I've done. And the other thing too, is like the older you get, the more young people coming up. Who are the twenty eight year old me? You know, I'm in my forties now, so there's twenty eight year old kids coming up that are whipping my ass. You have so many you have so many credits in the producing world. And I know, for example, you wrote Darius Grown Honey, which was the number one song. Were you not writing as much then because you were so just producing all the time. Yeah. The writing thing for me has always kind of been like a way to take a day off from the producing grind but still be making music. You know. Um and uh, the writing thing has always it's never really like cross pollinated that much with my production. It's like the writing things that I'm proud of I usually didn't produce, and the stuff that I produced, I haven't written, but yeah, I wrote like Black Like Me with Mickey Guytan and um, I got to produce that as well. I wrote a bunch of songs and you know, some records coming at Michael Blue Blake Cut Cut came out on Friday. Um are you are you doing that more intentionally now? Writing? It's just I want to make music every day, So some days, if I don't have anything to produce, I'm gonna try and write a song. I love the writing process because I feel like writing is a lot about addition and production and subtraction. And production can get kind of taxing emotionally because it's a lot of no. Like better the better producer you are, the more you're muting and saying no because you want to get it down to the simplest thing. And a writing session is like what if we did this and what if we did that? It feels more like addition, Like it's like an upbeat. Like when I write a great song, I come out of my studio, walk into the kitchen in the house and kind of on cloud nine. You know, if I produce really well that day, I kind of like need a glass of wine, Like I just need to, like chill because it's pretty intense for for my brain. That's just how my brain processes those two things. And so the writing, even if I write a great song and it doesn't get cut, it might put me in a better place emotionally musically to produce the next day, or you know that kind of thing. It's like, I can't just produce all day every day, or I would feel like it's just too negative. It's a very negative space. Do you have. I'll say that bodywork a song that you listen back to and you're like, man, that was really me doing the best I can do. Like it's just three minutes that you're so proud of and it doesn't have to be a hit. But if if I ask you that question, like what comes to mind. I hadn't listened to the Fearless album in a long time, and I put it on like last year, and I listened to the Untouchable cover that's on there, or the song that you know, the Barlow guys did, and I was like, Wow, that's really good. I don't know if I could do that now, Like it it sounded like all the gears were working in my brain. Then you know, I didn't have kids then, and I just I just lived and breathed fourteen hours a day just music, you know. Um, And now I've I've got songs that are just work tapes where I'm like, I really like that. But it's it's pretty rare for me to really high five like past me. Yeah, as it should be. Yeah, I mean I hate everything I do. Yeah, I can't listen to my voice. I hate it. I mean, I played someone Gonna Stay the other day. I don't. I don't live that. It's so good though, thanks. Well, listen, that was that could be your uncut gem if you come on. That is such a smash. It's not, but no, it is not. Listen. I played it for we were talking about like, oh, we should write a you're a real life guy, don't act like what? No, and I and I remember embarrassing played it on the radio and I heard I was driving home or something that morning, and I remember I tweeted something and then like ten minutes later, you're like, Nathan JamMan just tweeted, like my song, I'd like making fun of me. No, No, it's it's so good dude. Well I gotta give that was me and at the time a songwriter in town who was an artist really struggling that. I was like, man, this guy's good. I was playing, but it's Walker Hayes. We wrote that together. We went to the Shack and we wrote that and we were like, well, I don't know who's ever gonna hear this. You know that little shack? Is it behind the building that's where I started producing Taylor music? Really? Yeah, that that was the little one car garage studio that I was emped in for like three years when I was doing all those demos for Liz and its resume tailor's. I mean that's a pretty heavy that's a little room though. I'm so happy to hear that you did that in that room. Yeah, that room has something in it. We wrote it. It's like a radiation coming out of the ground that has like music in it or something. And I was like, Walk, I just don't know if I have like the swagger to He's like, you got it, man, you got it. And we went in the studio and just him and I, you know, just do it. He's like, man, you got this. I remember being so pumped up by Walker. So I did it, and I wrote it and I recorded it and I was like, I'm this sounds so stupid, and then it was pretty It was pretty good. I'll say it was pretty good. The end all right, well, how can you get how can you and Walker do a version for for him? Now that he's he's got an even bigger platform. Hey fire me? Okay, yeah, I don't know. No that song you guys co wrote it? Right? Yeah, he's just and I all right, Walker, put that on your next project. It's so good. Well, where do you keep your Grammies? You have three Grammys? Wheread you keep them there in the studio, and I have, um there there there's three, so there there it makes an incomplete square, right, So there's like one, two three, and there's a one missing. So I took a piece of paper and I wrote the Grammy for the music we're working on today goes here to make like a perfect square. And so that's where I keep them. I keep them there to remind me to try and do good work, you know, do peeple. I'm assuming people come over there and see that too. I mean that would be inspired if I came over and we'd record a Noms Day too, and you're like this, this is what we're working for right here to fill this spot. Yeah, there's a there's a there's a spot that where this gram the next Grammy goes and it's gonna be ours. So this dumb question, but in what capacity do you feel like we'll just stay an award like your your neck because you've got you've got uh c M A A c M A couple of double war I'm going from memory here, Grammys, what what world are you working in now? Not the artist, but is it producing this songwriting? Where you feel like I got a good shot at something here. If I were to win something, it would be in this area. Well, um, I produced three songs, I co wrote four and produced three on Mickey Guydan's new album, and it's nominated for Country Album of the Year. And I guess the Grammys are next week, next weekend or whatever. You really could get that fourth one? Well, here's the thing you got, pagon I could put I could put a fake one there. But the the way the Grammy rules work is that you have to have produced of the album in order to get the actual hardware. So and I'm super happy for if it happens with Karen Kosowski would get She's got thet she's got the Grammy if it wins a Grammy. But I got close so so to get the hardware. But alright, can you claim I could claim that I produced songs on a Grammy Award one album, And I'm really picky about that. I don't want to say, like I want a Grammy even though it's it's Karen's. You know, what's the vibe in your studio? Um, it's kind of like gold curtains and black painted ship lap and like my wife decorated, it's like golden black. And I'm not necessarily a bandy fan, but you'd think I was if you came over, you and your wife. Maybe you're like your parents to you on the road, singing songs. No little song kids are got, kids are getting a little older. Yeah no, no chance. No. I think my mom and dad are there. Uh they're pulling the r V into the driveway at this point in their career. Well, but that's what I'm saying. You're taking over the RV, you and your wife because you put out a record like seven years or yeah, that right with intention of what I just wanted to do. It just needed to scratch the itch. I had a bunch of songs and it just popped in my head. I haven't had that it's show up since I played I did like a I mean, this is seven years ago. We still did CD release parties. You know. You know it sounds so old now to say that. I'm sorry anyone who's under thirty for saying those words, but um, I had Martinez was on the front row, Charles and Dave from Lady A and they were all hanging out listening, and Pete Fisher was there and he was the head of opera at the time. He was just my friends, but Pete kind of I could see him kind of looking around the room and his wheels were turning in Right after I got done, he came up and he's like, I want you to do this on the opera, these songs. I was like, okay, so that was cool. So I just I put a record out just for me. My friends really appreciated it. Um I had a song on there I wrote with Andrew dorff Are, the songwriter who passed away a fe years ago. But I'm really proud of that one and just made it just because I I just needed to make something. And I also I asked a lot of times I worked with artists, new artists, and I'll say, if if you had to strip down what you do to just a piano and your vocal, or just a guitar and and your vocal, Like, what would you be if you were in that spot? And I hadn't asked myself that question a long time, and I turned that question on me and I was like, that's a hard question. So I think going through that process made me a better producer and music maker, and better collaborator and a better friend artists who are stressed out. Like sometimes when you're a producer and there's so when you're on the macro level, there's so many things going on, and then you know, the artists will call you at eleven at night and be like the shakers too loud in the mix, and you're like, what you care about a shape? You know, you can almost kind of get like a little bit numb to the to the details just because there's so much going on. And then I was, but I was the guy obsessed about the shaker, you know, or they'll probably give you re perspective. It was. It was like a recalibration of because I had come out of all that that tailor journey, all that success and all that stress and intense that's just that intense, intense existence that I was in the needsy to just kind of like just make music for no good reason. What do you do for fun? Now? Musically not a hobby, but what fun for you music? The most fun thing for me is to play bass. I love playing bass, and I'll play bass on the session. Now. It's been the last few years I've kind of moved from being the acoustic guitar player on a tracking date to being the bass player, and I just love that instrument changes. The way you play the bass changes the whole band more than an acoustic guitar. You know, acoustic guitar is like a glorified shaker in a country band. But the bass, I mean, the way you play, the note, you choose, the tone, YouTube, all that stuff kind of it really talks to the music of of what's going on. And so if I had to do something for fun, like sometimes I daydream of like going on the road as a bass player with a really cool artist and just being in that headspace, I love that. Would you ever, I'm just gonna use an artist and I don't even know if a relationship with them, but like a like Eric Church or artist X. Would you say, hey, I'll fill in if your bass player goes down. Do you think you can pick it up in two days? Like learn what the seid like? Do you could you take that in, digest it and then play it in two days. I texted Keith and I was like, if Jerry Flowers gets a cold call me because I played on that uh the Speed of Light, I think the Speed of Sound EP that Keith put out. I'm playing based on a few of those tracks. I didn't produce or write anything. I just was the bass player. He he and he brought me in as a bass player. He he was super cool to do that, but he wanted to shake up that seat in the band a little bit. Of all the tracks you sing background on, which can you hear your voice most distinctly? And it's like day, why do they turn me up so much? Okay? There? That's uh the song ours or ours? How do you say rs O U R S. It's hard to say that word by itself. Uh? That is on the is that the speak Now record? It was a bonus track I think with Taylor and um. I remember we were mixing the record, and she kept telling Justin Kniebank, She's like, turn Nathan up, turn Nathan up. Well, if you listen back to it, it sounds like a duet. Like it I'm I'm as loud as she is, or even louder than her in a couple of spots. And so yeah, that's one where I'm like, oh my goodness, that's a lot of Nate. Hey, read you get your one question here. Read here. He's a video guy, but he's also a big music nerd. What is your question for Nathan? Let's see, so with the amount of new artists you've worked with, and even just the younger artist, Um, what advice would you give uh to someone who's coming up or just new as trying to find their sound? Because I know that's just like that's such a hard thing, especially when you're um about to put out your first record or something like that, worrying about like that's what's gonna staple you down to what you're known for. So like, what's what's advice you would you give in that area you're finding your sound? I think, um, I think i'd in a perfect world you would discover your sound. You would you would you, it would reveal itself to you through trial and error and through figuring out what what you feel like your story could be with your fans. You know. I think if you think about like, uh, like Dan and Shay, you know, they found they had that sound very early on. I co wrote one of the songs on their first record with him, and and it was like, you know, basically, we've got this singer who's so good. What do we just want to do to make that voice sound even better? You know? So? And then there's other people who find their sound based on their song writing, like they right, they just have a propensity to write pop country or to write traditional country or whatever. It is. Like like, if you're Ashley McBride, finding your sound seems like it would be pretty no brainer. It's like I've seen country music and I play my acoustic and just make that bigger, you know. So, I feel like if you are in a place where you really are trying to find your sound and you just can't find it, there's other questions that need to be answered. First, who who are you? What are you trying to do? What do you like? What's the what's the true north of your music? You know? Like if a traditional country artist like I remember when George straight put out leave you with a smile. It was like, oh, that's a that's a departure from what we know is George. But at least we know what George is, you know. And I feel like an artist who really can't find their sound, that's the least of their problems, for sure, you know what I mean. Listen, we've been here over an hour. I don't know why you Why did you have me? Do you? We spent the last hour talking about why we had This is not what you ask at the end. We've gone through and picked through your entire life and all of your awards and I mean theories, and I'm very honored to be a part of this and uh the Bobby Cast, and because I think that you have definitely brought a m just an excitement into the conversation about country music. You know, your radio show and and uh, all the things you're doing is just and you're just you're just a great advocate for what we're doing. And I think part of it is because you're not afraid to challenge the town and challenge the status quo. Thank you for doing that. If we can't handle you, then we've got you. Know, then we need to quit. You know what I mean? Like if you push back on something in Nashville and and and it can't withstand a little criticism or a little question, then it's not right. And I think you've made our town better. So I appreciate that. We definitely didn't expect the success of this specific podcast. We I just enjoyed it, and I enjoyed talking to songwriters and producers and that includes artist who are songs And that was just the idea was let's go second and third layer that often doesn't get enough time spent on it, and so we didn't predict the success. We liked the success. Um, I appreciate you saying that. And I'm just a big fan. Just like when I come to the airport and I was like, hey man, I'm a big fan. I just kept walking. I was like, I'm a big fan of like you just kept walking and I was like, I don't even know if I said my name. So you're you're you're great man. That was great, and so yeah, and you gotta come on me and Kevin Show and okay, no I'm not not. This is what I we could highlight that for a split second, but I had there's a couple of songs I think she don't love you, she just don't live that er Derek Paslay song, I can't believe it wasn't a massive hit. Yeah, I think it ended up getting a C M A and like, uh maybe like hit eleven. But when it comes to songs where I'm like, I don't understand how this isn't hit, that's that's the one. Your perspective on that whole journey of like this song is great, but it is not a hit. Like that would be really interesting to talk to you about how you see that, because that's got to be something like you're just talking about you. You you have observed that. But I'm telling you, if I'm not listening to this, I'm all right. Nathan Chapman follow him Nathan Chapman Official. And for like ten bucks so producer record. That's what I hear. It's like it's like ten dollars right now. You could get it while it's hot, while supplies last. All right, Thanks Nan, thank you. M HM