Stop Raising Your Children With This Dangerous Lie | Ian V. Rowe

 Critics say he doesn't acknowledge the real systemic barriers. The system is rigged against our kids. Have you ever felt the system was too big to beat?
 If you're a 12-year-old kid and hear that over and over again, you start to believe it. Senior fellow at American Enterprise Institute. Vertex Partnership Academy's founder. He's the author of the book Agency. Has been fighting against the victimhood narrative with kids. A man who is truly a voice of our time, Ian Rowe. My sixth grade teacher, in the midst of all this tension, she talked about her Jewish heritage with a certain reverence, with a certain pride. That stuck with me. There's some issues going on. Racial tension.
 Yeah, the local school board said, let's create another junior high school. All of the white parents decided to send their children to the annex. But it was Miss Talish who was the first person that gave me the confidence on something that was really important. Just because everyone that's left is black, why does it have to be bad?
 Well, what do you say to the people who say, I try, but I can't control my destiny as much as you may think I would be able to? I'm Ian Rowe, and the person that believed in me even before I believed in myself,
 is my sixth grade teacher, Mrs. Linda Talish. Welcome to The Person Who Believed In Me, I'm David Begnaud. Ian Rowe is a visionary leader, the son of Jamaican immigrants who arrived in Queens, New York with little more than faith, discipline, and an unshakable belief in the promise of America. They build a life grounded in hard work, education, and personal responsibility.
 values that would shape their son's path in extraordinary ways. That path ultimately led to Ian's life calling, leading innovative charter schools founded on a simple yet powerful conviction that character, family, and academic excellence together create real opportunity. Please welcome to the show Ian Rowe. Well, that was a beautiful introduction.
 It's such a pleasure to be with you, David. It is a pleasure to sit with you. I have to say, when we were booking you for the show, I thought people may not know his name as well as they know Oprah Winfrey's, but I was as captivated in a conversation with you as I was with Oprah. Oh, well, Oprah's pretty amazing, but let's see if I can top her. I know you will. We're going to begin the same way we always do.
 Miss Talish. Tell everybody listening who may not be seeing this what you're looking at and who that is. So this is a picture of Linda Talish, who is my sixth grade teacher. PS 156. PS 156 in Laurelton, Queens. Right. And...
 And she's amazing. Oh my god, this is such a great picture of her. When we first came to the United States, my parents and my brother, we first moved to Brooklyn. And then we moved on up to Queens. So if your listeners remember the Jeffersons, that song, moving on up to Queens. We moved to this small town, Laurelton. And Laurelton had been a predominantly Jewish and Italian neighborhood, lovely middle class neighborhood.
 but slowly becoming more racially integrated. And that unfortunately led to a number of racial incidents. But like our elementary school was like this little haven. And Ms. Talish was my – she is the person that believed in me. Because, you know, I was – in New York City, there used to be something called –
 IG and SP, Intellectually Gifted and Special Progress. And so I was in the IG class. And so I was a smart kid, kind of introverted. And I'll always remember the school play. So at the time, there was a really popular television show called Welcome Back, Cotter. Remember that, Gabe Kaplan? Of course, of course. So there was going to be a school production of Welcome Back, Cotter. But they didn't want to plagiarize, so it was Welcome Back, Sodder.
 And I don't know how, but Ms. Talish said, you know, Ian, you should really think about this. I think it would be good for your classmates. And so I auditioned. I'd never done it. You know, I said...
 stood on stage and I auditioned for the lead role. I was Mr. Sauter and I got it. And it, it, it was one of these things I was, this was, yeah, this was six race. I was 11 years old. And it's so funny looking at her. I can, I can see her face. I could just see her kindness. While we were having this magical experience inside school, um,
 there were all these other things going on outside school. And so she's Jewish. And, um, but we had this, this, this connection, you know, and she, um, she had this reverence, um,
 for her own Jewish heritage, which I didn't really think about it then, but there was something I just really liked about it. She talked about her family being from Israel and just – and again, in the midst of all this kind of tension, I just always felt a calmness with her, and she put me in the play. And that was a really big deal for me because I wasn't that kid. I wasn't the –
 And I was the kid that, you know, with Jamaican parents who'd come to the United States in search of the American dream. You know what you do. You go to school. You're studious at school. You come home. Have dinner. Do your homework. Go to bed. Go to school. Be studious. Come home. Have dinner. Have dinner.
 Do your work. You know, that was the rotation. And so I just thought like, that's the deal. What made you IGSP? And I ask because you now run a school. Yes. And you scout for talent. Yes. And you're able to identify verbally what makes a kid stand out. So what made the younger you IGSP then? And I mean, come on. Oh my God, look at that. Come on, how cute this is.
 All right, you went fishing. This is great. Yeah, this is... 1976. Yeah, this is right around the time that I'm going to talk about the experience that changed everything. So what made you IGSP? I was a very conscientious student. And my parents definitely...
 I'll say this. So here we are in the midst. We've just moved to Queens. We've discovered this wonderful community. But, you know, there's some issues going on. Racial tension. Yeah. And my junior high school, we'll get to the junior high school. But, you know, my junior high school was kind of the epicenter of a lot of these negative incidents in school. But my dad, he always used to say when he was in Jamaica,
 He was a man. He was a man, you know? Like you were judged based on what you did as a man. It wasn't until he came to the United States that he was deemed a black man. And that adjective had meaning. And he was frustrated by that because he never wanted this designation of a black man
 to somehow mean less than or less capable or less access. And so there was just a lot of attention paid in our home to whatever this designation may mean to other people for you,
 It is a characteristic, for sure. It's not to be ignored. But it's not something to be viewed as some deficiency. And so the reason I was IG probably is fundamentally because of that. But how would that show up in the way the younger you at that age behaved? Oh, it showed up in the hours I spent studying. It showed up in the hours we were in church together. It showed up in...
 Not getting distracted and frankly, not wanting to disappoint my parents. Right? And so it just showed up in a way that I needed to succeed for my parents. And I'll also say, and this might be a little tough, I was also...
 not wanting to go in the direction of some of the other kids that were my age, that were in my view, even at the time, not sticking to what I thought would be best for them. What does that mean? Well, you know, the kids who were, you know, skipping class, um,
 getting in trouble. And this obviously was way before social media and cell phones, just to solidify the fact that kids have always found ways to not be studious enough in school. And so that's how it just showed up for me. Like everything starts with my parents, which is why it's interesting. We're gonna talk about Ms. Talish, because she played a key role in helping me, like,
 confront my parents for the very first time. So let's get to that because I found when my producers told me who you wanted to talk about, I thought this was very interesting that the person who believed in you is someone who gave you the courage to stand up to your parents, push back and in some ways say no at, what are we talking, 11, 12? Yeah, 12 years old. Okay. Tell us the story.
 So again, Laurelton, lovely town in Queens. There are actually documentaries that have been done about the racial tension that occurred in Laurelton because it was like one of these first examples in America of a small middle-class community had been predominantly white and then suddenly the racial integration was starting to happen and just everything kind of blew up, you know? And that was the situation in Laurelton.
 And my junior high school, almost every day, there was some, there was fighting, there was some kind of- What was the name of the school? Junior high school 231. The local school board, in their wisdom said, okay, the way that we're gonna address these racial issues, not through more integration, more understanding, or they said, let's create an annex.
 Let's create another junior high school in Rosedale, which is another town just a few miles over, which was, you know, that community hadn't yet gone through this level of racial integration, so it was still predominantly white. And so the effect of that was that all of the white parents in our school decided to send their children to the annex.
 right? Leaving junior high school to 31 as a segregated, predominantly, virtually all black school. Right. And so my parents who had come to the United States on the presumption that where the white kids go, that's where the better education will be. That was, you know, that was just the assumption. Right. So they said,
 Ian, you're going to that school. And now, my parents would crawl through broken glass if they thought that would be the right thing to do for their kids, right? Oh, look at them. Now, aren't they beautiful? They are beautiful. This is their wedding day in England.
 In 1957. This is what I mean. They had their, my parents had their own adventure, you know, growing up in Jamaica, then my dad reaching his apex of what he thought he could achieve. First black engineer at IBM. He was one of the first black engineers at IBM. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a big deal. It's a big deal. It's a huge deal. He wasn't the first, one of the first. All right, so take us back to the story.
 Okay, so these are my parents, and they ultimately came to the United States in 1968, right? Not a particularly – like if you were a young black couple moving to the United States in the year of Martin Luther King's assassination, RFK, race riots, the beginning of Vietnam, it's not necessarily the most calming year to move to this country. But they did, right? And the thing is they weren't running away –
 from Jamaica or England, they were running to the United States, right? They were running to a country that they believed, yes, there's all this stuff going on, but the country was changing. There was the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act. There was opportunities potentially become one of the first black engineers at IBM. My mom got a job. This is a black woman for Manny Hanny, some of your...
 Listeners will remember Manufacturer's Hanover Bank, which through multiple iterations is now J.P. Morgan Chase. But she became a financial securities analyst. I mean, you know, so my parents were driven. Yeah. And so when the vision that they had for their family in the United States, when that meant ultimately me going to this annex school, because that's where the white kids –
 That fit with their vision. It didn't – it wasn't that they – I mean, they'd gone to schools that were all black, right, in Jamaica. So it wasn't that there was this inherent thing. But they said in the United States, that seems to be the deal. So you're going to go there. Got it. Okay. So give me back to the story. Okay. So now I –
 Something felt wrong with this, right? Something felt wrong with? With the idea of me having to leave my school, junior high school, 231. I left my school to go to this annex for the sole reason that...
 that all the kids in 231 that are going to be left over are black. And I remember, because now I'm in seventh grade, Ms. Talish was in sixth grade, but I was still connected to her. And I remember she talked about her Jewish heritage with a certain reverence, with a certain pride. And what was interesting is that she could talk about her pride, her comfort, her belief, knowing that
 There are challenges, there's persecution, there's people who might not like her because of her religious identity.
 But that had no impact on her belief in her own community. Okay. That was really powerful to me. I could have never put it in the words that I just did right now, but that stuck with me. And so here I am now being faced with this, a very similar challenge of, do I go home with my parents who I never say no to anything? Cause as I said, my parents would crawl through broken glass for their family if they thought that was better. And,
 And so it was really Ms. Talish. I mean, so this is the thing. So my parents clearly huge influence over my life, but it was Ms. Talish who was the first person that gave me the confidence
 to challenge my parents in such a way on something that was really important. Because I never challenged my parents on anything. And I remember the Sunday night before the Monday morning that we were supposed to submit the transfer papers. And I remember having seen Ms. Talish in some random thing. And I was talking to her about this. And it just struck me again.
 Because again, the context of all of this is that we're in a community that there are all sorts of racial incidents going on. So it's a big deal in the community. What was the conversation you had with her that was so transformative? Well, the conversation, again, it wasn't as deep as I would have had now. But a lot of it was her own reflection on her own Jewish community.
 It wasn't like I was asking her, please, Ms. Tallers, tell me, strategize what to say to my mom and my dad. But just tell me about, because she always talked about her family back in Israel and the pride. It was this thing about the pride, the reverence.
 the reverence for her own community. So you had pride, reverence for the black children at your school. Yeah. And you felt like- And my school itself. And your school. So it was the people, but also my school. And you felt like you would be abandoning them? Yes, of course. I'd be betraying them. I'd be betraying. Like, if I went to this other school, I would be stamping the idea that
 that, well, of course, Ian, you needed to go there, because how could you possibly stay at 231? It would be putting my finger on the scale that that's the right idea. And it's really interesting, because I think every person has an experience growing up where suddenly you realize that,
 Like you actually have influence over your life. You say it's the first time you felt that she gave you agency. Yes. It is clearly my, what I call my coming of agency moment. How do you define agency? Well, I define agency, my technical is this force of your free will guided by moral discernment.
 Right? Like everyone has free will. Everyone can choose X, Y, Z to do, but there's a, there's a framework for decision-making around your free will. Am I going to move in a direction that is positive for my life or is it whatever? Is it, is it a short term orientation? Is a, is a future orientation? And so at that time in my life,
 I was a 12 year old kid. I had lived in the context of basically whatever my parents had said we should do. Like I'd never really faced any big decision. So when I got this sense that she had this reverence for her own community, that you could both, um, know that there might be external forces that might put you in a certain box and,
 I don't know. I just felt, and I know this sounds stupid, but when she put me in the play, it's like, oh my gosh, like I can do this. Like she had no, she had no constraint over putting the IG introverted kid in the lead role of welcome back Sautter. Did you talk to her about talking to your parents? I never got that explicit, but she knew what was going on. Tell me about the conversation you had with your parents.
 Oh, right. Well, so this and I do remember this one. So we had a family ritual. Anytime we had our conversations in our living room, my dad was in the recliner. My mom was on the sofa. I was usually somewhere in the middle and sometimes my brother. But, you know, anytime we had a big conversation, that was the setting.
 And it was usually a one-way conversation because it was about something big, you know, we're going to X or you're going to take this exam or whatever it is. It was, you know, this thing is happening. But this context was we had to sign the transfer papers. And I did something I just never thought that I would do.
 And I challenged my parents. And one quick story, which I always think is relevant. So when my parents were courting in Jamaica years earlier, you know, my dad used to pick my mom up on horseback for their dates. Like they had this magical time in the country. But he left Jamaica to go to England because at the time...
 Jamaica was an English commonwealth, so for him to continue his education, he had to go to England. So he was missing my mom. So he wrote for her hand in marriage.
 Because in England at the time, if you were asking a woman under 21, you had to get formal approval from parents, right? So he wrote the letter of a lifetime to her parents. So he sent this letter to Louis, which is a tiny, tiny little town in the country in Jamaica near Ocho Rios for any people who know Jamaica. And here's my mom, 19 years old, and she's now asking her parents about.
 can she go to England to be with her Vincent? Mm.
 Like, this does not happen. Old school. Old school. This does not happen. And her parents, like, what are you talking? We're not going to do. We like Vincent, but we're not. He's 5,000 miles away. But she went. They said yes. Her parents said yes. She took a boat all by herself, 5,000 miles. Are you about to tell me you used that story? No.
 When you were making your case? No, no, no, I didn't. But I think my parents' ultimate decision to say yes to me, you can stay at 231. I just have this belief. It's connected to the moment when they got yes.
 in their life when they were facing a big decision and they really wanted something from their parents to go in a direction that in her case, her parents didn't want. You're saying your mother may have seen herself on your journey. So take me back to the living room, your dad, your mom. Yes. Yes. So here it is. So I'm begging, I'm pleading, I'm crying.
 I love my school. I want to stay. And I remember saying a version of this statement, just because everyone that's left is black, why does it have to be bad? Why does it have to be bad?
 I had no idea what I was doing in that moment other than the first time realizing this was a big decision. And I at least had to fight for it. My parents could have said, okay, good, son. That's great. You're going. Let's sign the papers.
 I pleaded, I begged, I cried. And this was in our safe living room where I had just listened to everything. My mom was probably like, who is this child right now? They said yes.
 They said yes. And that changed everything for me. Really did. How do you know it was the right thing? I didn't. Well, I knew what the wrong. Looking back. No, no. What's interesting, I knew what the wrong thing was. I didn't know necessarily the right thing. How do you know it was the wrong thing? Well, that feeling of abandoning my school. Like.
 I had teachers that I loved. There was Mr. Hill. There were all these great teachers, many of whom were black. Some of whom were white, by the way. So it wasn't just a complete racial thing. It was just...
 How could I do that? That felt wrong. So then, okay. So then I think one of the takeaways from the audience is when you were at an intersection in life. Yes. Where those you respect, idolize, hold in high regard are leading you in one direction. What I'm understanding you to say is listen to the force within you. Oh my gosh. Even at 12 years old. Okay. Even at 12. So that's the takeaway.
 That's the takeaway. And the thing is, again, you asked me, interesting, I didn't know it was necessarily right. I just knew I didn't want to abandon and betray my school. And I just had a belief that, like, what's interesting, the way I would make it the right decision, the way that I would make sure that my parents would never regret that.
 That's really when I realized I had agency because now I had skin in the game. How would you make sure they wouldn't regret it? Because I was going to work even harder. I was going to advocate for my school. I was now...
 I was now part of a larger effort to make my school great. And I have no doubt that in all the work I've done since then, running schools at MTV, at the White House, the singular idea that regardless of the institution that one is part of,
 the demographic makeup of the people in that institution should have no relationship to the quality of expectations that you have, particularly for kids in that school. So whether it's all black, all white, mixed, green, blue, whatever,
 That is – it drives me today. So there's no question that – and this is why I say my parents, sure, but it was Miss Talish who – like her – I don't know. Like there was a reverence she had that I just felt – I wanted to feel that too because I have that for my school and the community I have. What's interesting is I thought she would have said something or sat you down or given you a big lecture. But I'm hearing you say none of that happened. It wasn't a lecture. This was observational. Yes, yes.
 This was observational. Which, by the way, is a good lesson for people. I agree. I'm waiting for you to, like, knock me over the head with, like, a boy, here's what you need to do moment. And that didn't happen. No, it wasn't that. And that wasn't going to be her way. But the takeaway is some of the most influential people in life—
 Don't walk around dictating what others should do. And in fact, I think many of the most influential people because they follow what you do. So another takeaway that I'm hearing is the permission to let you stay, not go, but the permission to let you stay gave you a sense of self responsibility that has framed the man you became. Yes, because I'm in it.
 I could never say to my parents, like if things didn't work out, that somehow I wasn't a big player in that decision. I was stunned to hear that 92% of the people who watch our podcast haven't yet subscribed to our YouTube channel. So if you're enjoying this episode, please share it with a friend and subscribe. We appreciate it and it'll help more than you know. You went to Cornell? First I went to Brooklyn Tech. Well, so I stayed in my junior high school.
 And I worked my butt off. And then I did grade seven, eight, and nine, three years, in two years, right? So then I entered Brooklyn Tech High School, which is one of the specialized high schools in New York City. Then Cornell. Then Cornell. Then Harvard. Right. So I entered college at 16. Oh, wow. So I was really young. Wow. Wow.
 But I was in it. I now was an architect of my own future. I wasn't some passive player. That's why I say this coming of agency moment. The reason I run schools today is I want every kid to have that coming of agency moment in their own life. How do you help them achieve that?
 Well, first of all, you create conditions that you allow kids to see themselves in ways that maybe others around them may not. That may be through the experience of speaking to incredible speakers like we do within our schools. It also could be challenging them in ways that unfortunately a lot of other schools aren't. There's this kind of
 You know, we often talk about the phrase, the soft bigotry of low expectations, where you might think a kid because of their race, their class, their gender, whatever.
 you know, you don't really need to, you know, they're not really going places anyway. I'm like, what are you talking about? Let's take a class visit to some of the best schools in the country. Let's expose our kids to some of the greatest thinkers in the country, whether that be in person or through the classroom literature, the canon that we read. I mean, we have this thing, the best for the best is the best for all. Meaning that the best education that the
 Best schools in the country provide their kids. Why wouldn't we provide that to the kids in Soundview in the Bronx, where only 7% of kids graduate from high school ready for college? You were the first black head of the Harbis? Oh, yeah. The Harvard Business Newspaper? Yes. Does it bother you that I say first black head? No.
 Does it bother me? No, I mean. Bother is not the right word, but it is funny how life, right? Like, you know, I'd never seen anybody who was gay on the news till Anderson Cooper came out. So like, I'm trying, I'm listening to you say like, your dad didn't want to be a black man. He wanted to be a man. Right. But at the end of the day, there is something that feels good about being the first black head of the Harvard Business newspaper. And the thing is, right. And his thing is,
 It's true. I mean, the vernacular is black, right? But it's the baggage that he rejected and I reject. What baggage? Tell me. Unpack that. Because the difference when my dad was saying in Jamaica, he was a man. But when he came to the United States, he was told repeatedly, well, you're a black man. That wasn't just a...
 An innocuous adjective. It wasn't an identification. It was a put down. It was a put down. Yeah. That is very well said. Yeah. And so we fight every single day for our students to recognize, sure, there's differences in skin color, right? And there will be people who will...
 maybe give you less of a shot because of these characteristics, but that's on them. It's not on you. It's not on what you develop your own self capacity to achieve, your sense of agency. Now it's very important not to say, well, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. That's not what we mean. They're important roles.
 for institutions, family, religion, education, entrepreneurship, this framework I call free. Yeah.
 to help young people actualize what is the sense of agency within them, even though they may not have realized it up until that point. You literally wrote a book called agency. Yes, I did. The four point plan, as you said, for all children to overcome the victimhood narrative and discover their pathway to power. Yeah. What do your critics say?
 Well, what I say is, you know, I've now had the amazing experience to work in lots of different settings with different kinds of young people, right? Teach for America. Teach for America. White House. White House. MTV.
 Gates Foundation and now running schools for almost two decades. And tell everybody the name of the school. Oh, Vertex Partnership Academy is based in the Bronx. Soundview community in the Bronx. Lovely community. Schools are challenged. Back to what the critics say.
 So the critics say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever, whatever. He runs schools, blah, blah, blah. He's all about agency, blah, blah, blah. He doesn't acknowledge the real systemic barriers. He doesn't acknowledge that the system is rigged against our kids. And you hear that narrative a lot. In fact, I write about it in the book, right? This blame the system narrative. Like America is a country that at its core –
 at its core is hostile to the interest, particularly of kids of color, to women, to the gay community. And it's, it's a blight that is forever part of the DNA of the country. How do you respond to that? Well, the thing is, if you hear that, if you're a 12 year old kid in the South Bronx and hear that over and over and over and over and over again,
 You start to believe it, right? And so my response is there are systemic barriers. In fact, I'll tell you about one in New York City and, in fact, across many schools across the country. School choice, right? That's a concept where a kid should have the ability or a family should have the ability to choose a great school for their kid. Well, guess what? In a lot of parts of the country, there's literally a legislative barrier, right?
 there's a cap on the number of schools that can be quote unquote schools of choice, charter schools or having access to religious schools or the ability to send your kid to a lovely private school. That doesn't exist. That is an example of a true systemic barrier.
 Which is why I spend lots of time in statehouse capitals across the country fighting for school choice to remove that systemic barrier. So one can acknowledge that there are, quote unquote, systemic barriers without –
 transforming our kids into these just passive beings that have no agency. Is part of your argument, Ian, that there may be a truth to systemic racism or systemic issues, but the approach to combating it you disagree with? Yeah, because as I often say, for those who claim that there's systemic racism, structural racism,
 Institutional racism. I say, okay, well, then you have to accept there's something also called surmountable racism. Meaning that are – do the existence of these factors that you say are so overwhelming –
 do they completely diminish the capability of individuals to overcome? Because by the way, we have tens of millions of examples of people who seem to be living quite well. Why? What is it about their approach? And for me, over 30 years of working with lots of different kinds of kids, by the way, poor kids, black kids, white kids, rich kids, you know, kids, rich kids who affluence, neglect, we call kids growing up in domestic shelters, uh,
 In homeless shelters, domestic violence, I've seen kids as they've started to make their decisions where they enter young adulthood, recreate the same dysfunction that they experienced growing up. And it's a real tragedy to see.
 But I've also seen kids in those same exact conditions develop a different orientation around their life. They have a future orientation, right? They start making different sets of decisions that break the cycle of disadvantage. But don't you think that's influenced by their environment?
 Of course. So then a kid who goes to your school is probably more likely to choose that redefined slope as they encounter, right? Exactly. Versus a kid that ain't going to your school. Exactly. So then what is the question? How do we create more environments where kids can have access to this kind of school? In my experience, kids- And how do we do that?
 Well, one is school choice, right? That is an excellent example of how we move from the, well, that's just the way it is. That's the systemic barrier to, okay, if we know that for the kids that are succeeding, they are able to access the kind of educational experience that puts them on a different trajectory, right?
 then why don't we create more of those kinds of educational experiences, right? And that's just an education. The kids that I've also seen break the cycle of disadvantage recognized regardless of the family that they were from, what was most important was the family that they were on the pathway to form.
 Right? So family plays a big—and we can talk about how we address this in our own school, but also faith, personal religious faith. These things start to get prickly. Sure, but what about a kid who doesn't have family or faith?
 It's tough. But here's the thing. We have to help them understand that they are not purely a victim because there are lots of kids like that. So the question is, do you just write them off? Do you just say, sorry, you don't have family, you don't have faith? And if no one has actually ever given them the opportunity to realize, A, that
 You do have power. You can change the kinds of decisions. There are lots of decisions that were made for you growing up, particularly as it relates to family. But you have the capacity to make different sets of decisions growing up. Tell me how your school facilitates or fosters an environment where you see a kid come from something that was...
 done to him in terms of his environment. Yep. But then you see things actualizing in his life that lead to the kind of person you're looking to see. So by the way, that's many of our kids. Yeah. Yo, I, no doubt, no doubt, no doubt. But give me some examples. So the first decision that we made around vertex partnership academies
 was to organize our school around the four cardinal virtues, courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. I love temperance. Temperance is- Love it. Love it, love it. And so in the first year, we just had those words. And what we realized, what temperance might mean to one person is very different than what it means, or courage, right?
 So we then created what we call I statements. And these are statements that if you ever come visit our school, and I hope you do, every morning when our students and their beautiful blazers and ties are standing strong, they recite the I statements. So for courage, imagine a whole room of primarily low-income Black and Hispanic kids saying, okay.
 I reject victimhood and boldly persevere, even in times of uncertainty and struggle. That's what they say every morning for courage, for temperance. I lead my life with self-discipline because I am responsible for my learning and my behavior.
 These are – it's like a goosebump moment. Don't you have them recite parts of the Constitution too? They also recite the preamble to the Constitution. We the people have the responsibility to preserve, to secure the blessings of liberty. The whole point is you are an active player in your life.
 in your community, in your country. And so oral recitation is actually one part of how we do this for our students. And what's interesting, it's not, so someone may see this and say, oh, they just say these words. But what's interesting, it moves from just words on paper
 But when you're standing strong in a whole community and you're saying it together. I get that. It is a collective commitment. I feel that. For how we are going to operate as a community. It's amazing. It's amazing. And so our –
 Regardless, again, we try to have our school be almost like this oasis where they can come in. In this environment, you are hearing everything that you can do in your life, regardless of if everywhere else, you're hearing what you cannot do. Do we know if Ms. Talish is still alive?
 Okay, so when you connected me, I reached out to her. I don't know. I hope you will try and find her. Yes. Because as you are telling me what you have them do and what you hope they see at your school, I think about like, now I understand why she is so pivotal for you. Totally. Because by the way-
 I'm hoping for my own students that see me every single, because I'm, I'm, you know, I'm the founder of the school, but I want them to see me, even if I don't interact, they're like, wow, Mr. Rowe, he seems really confident. Like he's, he, he, he lives in the real world. He knows that there are challenges, but he seems to believe that we have the capacity to do hard things. Yeah.
 It's really important. There is a sense like we have to insulate kids these days in such a way that it's almost like they're like porcelain. I don't know. I've run schools because I want our students to know that they can do hard things. So when Ms. Talish simply embodied this person who had reverence for her identity that regardless of what others might think, she had the ability to achieve. And she was in a school in Laurelton, Queens, basically trying to push kids to do that.
 That's it, man. That's, that's agency. That's the power of passing on to the next generation. This idea that you're not some, like Martin Luther King says, is you're not just some flotsam or jetsam on the river of life. You know, that you're just kind of going with the flow. You are an active player. What do you think she saw in you?
 I think she saw this kid that was smart, but wasn't allowing myself to share that or receive that.
 my presence in a way that I, I just have a feeling she thought I had a lot more to share. Like in, in some ways, maybe this was it that I was studious and all that for myself, but I wasn't sharing more of me with the rest of the community. You know, I like to think that I like to think that. And I think she was right. I mean, in the, in she, so I did, I did the lead in Mr. Sodder. And then the next place, she's like, I can't give you the lead, but I was a Russian Cossack in a nutcracker.
 So, you know, here I am. And by the way, I have a picture. I'm going to find a picture. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Please tell me you'll try and find her. I am going to try and find her. No, her. Please tell me you'll try and find her. Just so you know, I went on classmates.com. I wrote to her to tell her I was doing this, so I haven't gotten to respond. I don't know if she's alive, but her presence, I very much try to mimic that.
 Like I want to embody, I want to embody a way of life for my students in a way that
 They know they have the capacity to achieve, even if I'm not, you know, hammering them over the head every single day, because they know that I live in the real world. I face the challenges that they face. Do you think there's a connection between what you went through with her at 12 and why you run schools today? A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Because the idea that I could disagree with my parents...
 was inspired by her. I then challenged my parents. I convinced them to do something that they didn't want to do. They didn't want to do it. And it was all on this premise, if it's all black, it has to be bad.
 I couldn't do that. No question. That fundamental challenging of that narrative is connected, not just running schools, almost everything I've done at the White House, MTV, all of it. Be honest with me in terms of where have in life you encountered things that even challenged what you truly feel to be true? Just give me some examples of things that, right? And as you think about that, let me tell you that I grew up in the Deep South.
 I grew up around Catholics and Baptists. No Jewish people. First time I met a Jewish person, I think I was 23 years old. I told you before this interview I didn't know what the menorah was, and I asked it out loud. There was a lighting of the menorah at the state capitol. I grew up in a very black and white world. There was not a lot of gray, metaphorically speaking. And I want to share this story with you. In 2008, Prop 8 was on the ballot in California to either legalize gay marriage or ban it.
 And I'll never forget being at a grocery store in Sacramento when the driver of a rickety old sedan pulled in. And the driver was black, the passenger was black, and the two people were in the back, were black. And they had a big yes on eight bumper sticker. If you were for yes on eight, that meant you were against gay marriage. And I remember thinking to myself,
 How can people who are black in this world and understand what discrimination looks like be riding around with that bumper sticker? Yep. It's wild. But here's why I bring it up. My black and white world in Lafayette, Louisiana, when I got out and I went into other communities, I learned that it ain't as black and white. And it's gray. So I offer that just to say,
 I'm very captivated by your thoughts and the way you deliver them. But where has life humbled you in some ways and made you even challenge? Yeah, it's a really good question because, and this may be an unsatisfactory answer, in that I certainly have been challenged in my beliefs. I mean, actually, let's speak on this specific issue. When I was at MTV, in the lead up to the Supreme Court decision around gay marriage,
 we had an ad, right? And I got to say to him, we did some amazing pro-social ads. And the way this ad started, this guy, he goes up to a house, he knocks on the door, and the people opens like, hello, and it's a couple. And he says, hi, I'm so-and-so, and I really want to marry Lisa. And the people say,
 Sure. Okay. And then he walks to another house, knocks the door. He says, hi, I really want to marry Lisa. And the people are like, sure. And then this ad proceeds to show him going to different houses asking to marry Lisa. And the ad ends with...
 imagine if you needed to get the permission of millions of people to marry the person that you love. It was one of our most, we may have won an Emmy for it actually. Actually, I'll send it to you. It was one of our most amazing ads, right? And the reason we loved producing it is that here we were with this challenge where parts of the country hated this idea, hostile to this idea,
 And so we tried to say, okay, how do we wanna speak to young people about this? Cause there's always a way, maybe that's the thing that somehow has gotten in my head. There's always a way to address a thing. And so if we could make the issue of gay marriage
 to this idea of, wow, what would you, if you had to ask millions of people, get permission, wouldn't that seem uncool? And that's the exact impact this ad had. And I'll say it to you because it was not popular to put that ad on, even at MTV at the time, right? And so I faced challenges, but I never, I guess I never,
 I never like to think... Well, where did you encounter gray that made your opinion not so black and white? Hmm. I mean, in a sense, I feel... Like, I feel I'm constantly in a battle even now. Like, some of the things I'm... Do you really? Yeah. I mean, the things...
 Okay, so justice. So another I statement, right? That our students recite every morning. Yep. Justice. I uphold our common humanity and honor the inherent dignity of each individual. It's good. Powerful words, right? Good, good. I say that, they're like, dude, what are you talking about? You know.
 People don't honor my inherent dignity. People, you know, racists don't believe that. I'm like, it's true. But we can't forfeit the ideal because we know that there is some reality that conflicts with each of these virtues. I hear that. Right? Yeah. And so I try to stay there. That's a good point. That's a good point. So two things can be true. And I guess I should probably finish the Prop 8 story. Come to find out those people had the bumper sticker because of a religious belief.
 And so I say that only to tell you it gave me humanity for them because I was offended when I saw – I was like, how are you black and you want to discriminate against me being able to – don't you understand? But then when I heard it was because of religion, I was like, okay, I may not agree with it, but like – See, there it is. Right there. Right there. Yeah. That insight is what we want our kids to believe, which is that –
 You can disagree agreeably in such a way that you don't have to spew venom. You don't have to assume that the person who's espousing a view different from you is somehow evil or inherently deficient. These people were wonderful. I visited with them. They were wonderful. I uphold our common humanity and honor the inherent dignity of each individual. It's really hard to demonize people.
 on matters of race, class, gender, if you have that core fundamental belief. Sherry Lansing, the Hollywood legend, sat in that chair when she said to me, it is impossible to hate someone you get to know. Of course. It is impossible. But here's the reason I brought it up.
 Because I hear what you're saying, and a lot of it I love. But I also think it's true that in some places, people do believe that there's systemic racism because of the environment that they are constantly living in. And so I think we can hold space for both, right? We can acknowledge that what you're doing is like, wow, right? Yes. Like I'm inspired by what you have those kids do. Yes.
 But like I also have been in some communities where I'm like, they're right. They are living in some systemic racism. But here's the thing. What do they do about it? Well, what do you say to the people who say, I try, but I can't control my destiny as much as you may think I would be able to? Okay. That's fair. Okay. Because I have to, quote unquote, meet people where they are. Fair. Right? Fair. So if I encounter a situation like that, which by the way –
 Is the South Bronx. I mean, there are a lot of people who would say, look at these conditions. And by the way, I look at those conditions too. That's why I bring world-class schools to those communities specifically. Yeah, you choose to be there. Right. Yeah. And so that's my only response. My only response is, okay, what do you want me to do? Just throw my hands up and say, there it is. And now I have to wait. Have you ever felt the system was too big to beat?
 No, look, when we opened Vertex Partnership Academies in 2022, the teachers union sued us to shut us down to prevent us from opening in the first place. What was their argument? It's a complicated story, but in New York City, there's a cap.
 on charter schools. There's a legislative barrier. So if you want to launch a great school for all these kids that are desperate for a great education, there's a legislative barrier stopping you from doing that. We figured out a very clever way to open a school, nevertheless, completely legal, but the union said they thought they had a chokehold on opening new schools.
 Six days before we were scheduled to open, a New York State Supreme Court judge threw out the union's case. The Wall Street Journal did a whole feature on this. And so the reason the teachers union sued us is because most of the time, if they sue, you know, most school leaders will like fold up or go somewhere else. And they'd say the system is rigged. I mean, yeah.
 But maybe this is a gene within me. I could not let that happen. It's just like a disruption in the force, you know? Because, and by the way,
 We're now in 2026. We have the first graduating class of Vertex Partnership Academies. So I am going to invite the union leaders who filed a lawsuit against us to come to our graduation to see the students that they would have blocked from having this experience. That's like to me.
 That's how we show, maybe I'll get into the hearts of those people who are so determined to shut us down. The shared humanity promoter in me that is also in you. Yeah. Has watched Randy Weingarten get beat up in Times Square literally and figured out, you know, like, I get it. But my point is.
 Union people, aren't they just trying to protect teacher jobs? Like, isn't that the core of what they do? So it's very hard. So I've met with Randy Weingarten several times on this topic. I am inviting Randy to come to our graduation ceremony. Randy and I have done presentations together on innovation in schools. Wow. I'm like, Randy...
 So how do we do this? Right. And your union is suing to shut us down. Yeah. It's a dichotomy. Yeah. And I choose to believe...
 That there is a kernel within what you just said. Aren't they just out for their – I mean it's easy to believe that. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it. No, it's not. I mean unfortunately you have lots of behavior in that to support that ideology. I mean I think about people I've met whose parents both have teaching jobs. And teaching jobs would be threatened by more schools like yours.
 I'm not saying one's wrong or bad. I'm just saying like there's some compelling argument on we're just trying to save our jobs. But why is it threatened? We'd love to have those teachers come in our school. There you go. But why is it a threat? There you go. I mean – You have said that social capital is the currency of America. What do you mean by that? So social capital –
 is A, in America, A, a belief that we live in a good, if not great, country. So let's start there, right? That America is an inherently good country founded with principles of
 that are grounded in this idea of equality of opportunity, our common humanity, and the way that we resolve differences is through democratic, informed discourse, right? So social capital is this idea, okay, if I can leverage those principles and support the key institutions like family, religion and faith, strong educational choice...
 Those ingredients create for a kid the kind of social capital. You know, so when we talk about capital, we talk about money. But social capital is this sense that you are a responsible member of our society, right? A self-governing, free society depends on individuals who have a sense of social capital, who have the ability to self-govern their own behavior differently.
 against a set of common virtue. That's why our school is organized around courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. Because we want our kids to build social capital, organized a set of virtues. By the way, we didn't pull these out of the air. The cardinal virtues, the platonic virtues—
 Cardinal comes from the Latin root cardo, which means hinge or axis. So all other standards of moral excellence or strong character habits emanate from courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom, right?
 So anyway, so optimism, gratitude, hope, determination, perseverance, all of those things are the things that you use to build social capital. So if we're able to ground our kids in this idea that these four virtues that we have you recite every single day, honestly, if our schools did nothing else in math and science and engineering, we'd do lots of good stuff there.
 we'd be doing a pretty good thing about building social capital. Your colleague, Catherine Burbleson, said the West won't fall in parliament. It'll fall in the classroom. What did she mean? Yeah, it's a really powerful quote. So Catherine runs a great school in England called the Michaela Community School. And there are a lot of parallels in the way that we think. And she's often criticized for the many things I'm criticized for. Because she has a belief that I have a belief, which is that,
 Every generation needs to be reminded of the reason that many generations before have existed and now given them the opportunity to live a flourishing life. We know something about what it means to live a good life. We do. The cardinal virtues are just one example. And so...
 If our schools aren't constantly reanimating these virtues, so this idea of it's not gonna be lost in parliament because that's, like government is government for sure, but if we aren't immersing our kids in the way of life, the collective received wisdom of what a flourishing life really means, we're doing our kids a disservice. So I think that's what she means by that phrase.
 You have also said that we have a moral responsibility to let young people know that the dream is real and their life can be their own. Yeah. Okay. So how do you practice that in your personal and professional today? Well, one thing that, and we were just featured in the Washington Post for this, and this is going to be a little controversial,
 So one thing that we teach, so remember one of the things I said, how do we help young people know that their life can be their own, right? One of the things we teach in our schools is something called the success sequence. And the success sequence is data that says if a young person completes at least a high school degree, then gets a full-time job of any kind, so they learn the dignity and discipline of work, and then if they have children...
 If they have children, if they get married first, that series of decisions, education, work, marriage, then children, the data says 97% of young people who follow that series of decisions avoid poverty.
 and the vast majority enter the middle class or beyond. So this is data that's been studied on the left, studied on the right, it's received wisdom, and now there are about seven states that are now going to be requiring the teaching of this content in their middle and high schools across their state. I just testified in Ohio for this purpose. So Vertex Partnership Academies, we teach this.
 as part of a class called Pathways to Power. It's a class about empowerment, healthy decision-making, what are your goals, and then the success sequence. It's a framework for decision-making. A lot of pushback. Because you can't teach this in your schools because most of the parents of the kids in your school didn't follow that series of decisions. You'll be shaming them. You'll be shaming them.
 You will be embarrassing them. You know, if you've got kids in your school, many of whom are, you know, the non-marital birth rate in the Soundview section of the Bronx is about 86%. So nearly nine in 10 babies are born outside of marriage, right? So the vast majority of parents did not follow the sequence of education, work, marriage, then children. Huge pushback.
 So I was like, wow, maybe we're doing something wrong. Maybe we're doing something wrong. So we went to our parents, the vast majority of whom did not follow this series of decisions. And we asked them, we said, you know, you chose our school, a charter school. You entered a lottery because we were an international baccalaureate program. We got all this great stuff going on. But we're also going to teach your kids about the series of decisions that,
 and what the likely rewards or consequences are of different sets of decisions. What'd they say? Thank God someone is teaching this content to my child, because I wish I had received that growing up. So for me, again, this is another kind of, we could have just said,
 Let me accept the narrative that we'll be embarrassing, shaming, and let's just not do it. Because by the way, that's what the vast majority of people do. And so again, I often find a disconnect between the people, the self-anointed gatekeepers, the ones who say, oh, no, no, no, you can't, you can't, you can't teach that, you know.
 Versus the people themselves. Let me ask you this, though. What is too far? Right? Are there about – what is too far? Right? Well, what's too far is being completely naive and saying, just pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. Just you can – there's no hill too high to climb. And – because this is also what I write about in agency. So there's the blame the system ideology, which is the system is rigged against you. That's bad. Right?
 Because there are some systemic, systemic barriers. But on the other side, there's blame the victim, which is that if you're not successful in this country, it's your fault. You didn't pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. America's, the streets are paved, lined with gold. Right. And you didn't take advantage of it.
 So that's bad. So we can't go to the other extreme, which is the blame a 12-year-old kid for the fact that only 7% of kids graduate from high school ready for college. So I'm not naive, and I don't want our students to be naive about the challenges that they will face. But what I want them to know is that every kid—
 faces challenges. I've worked with rich kids across the country who face whole hordes of issues. Rich white kids, affluence, neglect, all that kind of stuff, right? And the point is, every human being
 will face the kind of adversity which humbles other people. Sometimes that may be based on your race. Sometimes it might be based on your economic class. Sometimes it may be on your gender. Sometimes it might be your sexual identity. Sometimes it may be for any host of reasons. The question is, what are you going to do in that situation where you're facing that adversity? Can I offer a recommendation on a class? Yes. A class on coping skills.
 Because here is my belief based on life experience and trauma. There is no greater tool you can put in someone's toolbox than the ability to cope with when life hits you. Because what you and I can promise every kid at your school is life's going to hit them.
 Yes. It's going to come back again and hit him again. Yes. If we could teach more kids, right? I'm not going to say who it is because I don't know if they would want me to say it. So I won't use their names. Let's say someone very close to me had a child that was going through some stuff and she's seven.
 And I consistently almost borderline begged their mother to put them in therapy. And she did. And it's been such a wonderful thing for that child. That session becomes an hour where the child feels some independence.
 They get to be heard and they come away with tools that I have seen. That child's now 11. And I have seen that child bump up against moments where I'm watching it go from zero to 60. And now it goes from zero to 30. Wow.
 That's a beautiful thing. So a class on coping skills. Yes. Some kind of thing I think would be so pivotal to what you're already doing. So I'm going to take that suggestion. I mean, in some ways we view, so we have a class called Pathways to Power. Yep. Yep. You talked about that. And it's really about this idea of self-efficacy in the face of adversity. So there's some stuff we're doing, but there's always more that, always more that can be done. But the point is the message of what you're saying, you're saying to a kid is,
 You have the ability to not only survive the situation, but thrive. So it's our responsibility as adults to let you know how. Well, that's why it's consistent with what you're already doing, because the reality is giving a kid a lesson in coping skills is not downloading or injecting them with anything. It's them finding within themselves that tool they already possess. Now I'm starting to sound like I'm on your staff.
 Anytime. But this is the magic of running schools. Speaking of schools, you went from MTV to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. I think I read you were running a fund of putting $470 million to work. Yes, in one year, yes. That seems like impact on a scale that is unimaginable. Why go from that to— Running an individual set of schools? An individual set of schools.
 Such a great question. So I worked at the White House for Bush 2 right after 9-11. That was an amazing experience. But once the 18 months was up and the focus was on crafting a case for war in Iraq, I was like, not really what I wanted to do. So then I had the opportunity to go to MTV.
 To run all of MTV's pro-social. So I was like, choose or lose, rock the vote. Using MTV's superpowers for good. So when my tenure at MTV was coming to an end, because I ran all the political campaigns, Obama had just won. So I had the opportunity to go back to work at the White House for Obama.
 But at the time, the recession, the 2009 financial collapse had occurred. Healthcare was a big... You, Obama, and who else is that? That's Christina Norman. She used to be the president of MTV. Okay. Amazing woman. Yes, yes. But I decided I could have more influence over education policy than...
 working at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation than going back to work at the White House, because the White House is going to be really focused on health care and dealing with the financial recession.
 So I went to the Gates Foundation. I was a deputy director of post-secondary success. So our mission was to help more low-income kids, particularly Black and Hispanic kids, not only go to high school or go to college, but to finish college, right? Post-secondary degrees or pathways with labor, credentials with labor market value.
 In one year, we gave away $470 million as a pilot. It's mind blowing. As a pilot. Wow. Right? And the thing is, I did come to the conclusion that the vast majority of the money that we gave away in that year was to institutions that essentially were trying to remediate kids who were coming into college or coming into high school
 woefully academically prepared. They were unprepared academically, unprepared financially, unprepared socially. And so I just thought, we've just given away a bucket load of money, but is it really effective? And the truth is, I don't think I really understand what's going on here. So money alone won't fix the problem. No, and that's why I said to myself, I actually have to run schools. So again, this is part of my craziness in that I said,
 Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, you know, is it money? Is it like all these other things don't seem to work, but what does work? And so for me, how do you know what you're doing now is working? That's a good question. Because you also, you have to have a long-term view on these things. You know, I've been running schools for close to two decades now. And I do think I've developed, like many other school leaders, a repertoire of what works. Right.
 Strong vision. One of the first things you realize about running schools, it's about math and science and reading. And it's about moral formation. Amen. A lot of school looters will not acknowledge that. They're like, stay in your lane, dude. That's for other people. That's for the church or home. It's like, well...
 Well, given that families and faith are weaker than they have been in the past, there is unfortunately, whether you like it or not, if you have kids in your care for eight to 10 hours a day, you are in the moral formation business. But how do you measure success? And I don't mean on a piece of paper for your investors or whatever. Yeah.
 I mean in terms of what makes your soul feel fulfilled. The kids who've come through. Sure, but what does it look like? Somebody who gets married and goes to be a doctor? How do you measure it? Well, yes. So I've been running school since 2010. Yep. Right? So we now have kids who've graduated from college.
 You know, and I'm happy to say virtually zero non-marital births. Not very many marriages yet because they're still relatively young. And that's okay. I want them to get married, but they still got time. You're probably the first principal I've heard hanging a shingle on that. On what? Zero non-marital births.
 That's a real deal. No, I hear you. I just, it never occurred to me that a principal would be measuring success on that. That's because we take on the prickly issues. Yeah. You know, I mean, 86% of our kids in Soundview are born outside of marriage. Now, it's important to say simply because a kid is born to a single parent, that doesn't mean that their life is guaranteed failure. Nor is a kid born to a married two-parent household. No. A guarantee of success.
 but the data is overwhelming. If we want to help kids understand what are the likely conditions for your success,
 Timing of family formation matters and that there are different pathways that are better than others. So, yes, of course that's a metric of success for us. I'm not fearful to say it. You know, I don't have any data on the faith formation. I'd really like to think our students have made some kind of personal religious faith commitment in their lives just because—
 it tends to lead to better outcomes. It tends to make you part of a community of people that love you, that have agreed to live by a certain set of moral tenets. Tends to, right? Nothing is a guarantee. So it's all in the people that emerge from our schools.
 Speaking of the people, I want to end where we began. Yes. You talked not only about your teacher, but you talked about your parents. Yes. And I think about these two little. Oh, yes. Human beings. Do you sometimes wonder what they will say about you? Oh, they'll say, dad. Oh.
 Oh, I love these two. And Sylvia. But I think about the stories you told of your father and your mother. And do you sometimes drive down the road thinking about the stories that they will one day tell of you? Yeah. You know, I bring my kids to, I just brought Camille, my daughter. I spoke to about 400 high school students in Boston a couple weeks ago. And I brought Camille with me.
 Because I wanted her to hear me say things to a group of 15-, 16-, 17-year-olds that's no different than what I say to her at home. Like, she's studying for the SAT. I'm like, Camille, you have to focus and buckle down. This is one of the big things I say to her. All these opportunities are out there for you. They are within your grasp.
 but you have to seize it. And that's the message to every kid, black, white, green, whatever. Their barriers, their challenges, their systemic challenges, all of it. Success is within your grasp. You don't have to do it alone. We're going to share with you all the mechanisms by which other people, just like you, have achieved success. Let's demystify that process. Let's demystify that process.
 If the things that are important to lead a flourishing life we know are connected to things like when you start your family, if you have a personal faith commitment, if you had access to a good education, if we know that, then let's try to create the conditions where more young people are aware of that than have the ability to seize it for themselves.
 Before you go, who is someone you would like to see sit in that chair to talk about the person who believed in them? Oh, wow. I asked Melissa Etheridge that question recently. She sat in that chair. And what'd she say? She said Ellen DeGeneres. Oh, interesting. Well, that would be an interesting person. You know who I would say...
 I would say either Shelby Steele or Thomas Sowell.
 If your audience doesn't know those two, Thomas Sowell's probably one of the leading economists, social commentarians. He's 95 now, I think. He's been someone that's been villainized, demonized for decades because he had the courage to talk about things like race and the self-imposed shackles or the externally imposed shackles.
 that have come when we get to that topic. So he's someone that's incredible. And then Shelby Steele, he wrote a book called The Content of Our Character. Changed my life when it was my early 20s. Because he was the first person, and I only more recently met him. So it's unlike Miss Talish who really connected with me. You know, she was my teacher. But Shelby Steele, in Content of Our Character, he for the first time gave me a language
 about self-determination that I never had really appreciated before. And believe me, he faced all sorts of challenges around issues of race and other things.
 But throughout this book, the content of our character, he kept going to this idea of your internal fortitude, again, which has to be shaped by your environment, lots of different things, but never accept that simply because you have been victimized, you have to take on a victimhood mindset. Okay, really the last question. How has this been for you reflecting on the person who believed you?
 Oh, it's great. And look, seeing pictures of Ms. Talish just brings back great memories. I'm so hopeful she's still alive where I can share with her because she probably doesn't know that she had this impact. Can I leave you with one more suggestion? Yes. Make this an exercise at the school.
 Because you know what it promotes? Gratitude. And do you know what gratitude promotes? The desire to do more for others. So I'm going to leave you with one last story, which is that Booker T. Washington, 100 plus years ago, founded Tuskegee University.
 And every Sunday night, he had a lecture series on character. And we've discovered all those lectures have been captured. And they're only like five to 10 minutes long. And even though he gave them 100 plus years ago, every word is still relevant. So it's now part of our core curriculum. So there's a particular speech that he gives. Have you done your best?
 And we give this lecture every February. So it's right in the midpoint of the year. And the basic premise of it is, if you asked all the people that you love in your community that have been the person that believed in you even before anyone else did, where you know this person has
 They've worked extra shifts. They've done all the things to invest in you. Have you done your best? It's amazing. And it's a great lecture. When we do the show notes, I'll add that to this because it's the kind of thing where –
 It's good for every person in whatever walk of life you are. Every person. Have you done your best? Because in this speech I just gave two weeks ago in Boston, I said, just for a moment, 10 seconds, stop. Who is the person that believed in you? And I said, silence.
 Wow. So you did it. Yes. And then we say, have you done your best? Could you look at that person and say, yes? Because that's what the answer to the question needs to be. Because don't we owe it to the people who believed in us? Ian Rowe, thank you. That was great. So good. So inspiring. Thank you for doing this.
 My pleasure. It sets my soul on fire. It really does. Conversations like this. You can't beat it. I just left the blizzard in New York.