350 | Two Common Challenges: Self-Esteem Work and Separation Anxiety

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi,

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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

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a master class in child-centered play therapy

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and practical support and application for your

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work with children and their families.

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In today's episode,

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I am answering a question from Megan in DC.

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Actually 2 questions.

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I shouldn't have said 1,

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it's 2 and they're

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not really related,

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so I guess we'll treat them as distinct and separate.

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So one is about a client working on self-esteem.

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And a little bit of confusion about what to say.

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And then the second is about separation anxiety.

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So,

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Megan,

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thank you so much for the questions,

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and we'll read parts of them,

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and then we'll dive in together.

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I have a question about a client who seems to be working on a steam building,

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but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to respond in a specific situation.

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She often asks me what I think about things and I validate her feelings.

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After a few rounds of that,

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instead of asking me,

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she will just tell me what to say.

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For example,

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do you like my drawing?

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Say yes.

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If a child is directing me to respond in a specific way,

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should I comply?

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I always do during first person play,

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like if a child was a teacher and they assigned me to be a student,

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but I was curious in this situation.

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All right,

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let me pause there before I get to the next question.

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So this is something that is quite tricky to navigate for a lot of clinicians.

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So,

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Megan,

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thank you so much for this question.

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I think this is really helpful.

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One of the things that we're always trying to do is

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be mindful that the focus should be on the child.

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It should never be about our thoughts,

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our feelings,

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our opinions,

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but sometimes kids are very demanding and insistent

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that they want us to provide those things.

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Often

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the workaround is

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we reflect feelings

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or we feign ignorance or we.

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Stall until the child gives up on waiting for an answer or answers for us.

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So those are kind of the three typical strategies for not answering a question.

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So when a kid says,

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do you like my drawing?

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We're obviously not going to say yes or no.

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And so that can be tricky.

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Those are the three go to's for how we kind of work around that.

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However,

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in this case,

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Megan,

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when the child says,

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do you like my drawings,

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say yes.

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We,

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we now know a much

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more important component to this.

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We understand that if a child is saying,

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do you like this?

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do you think this is pretty?

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Did I do a good job?

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Is this amazing?

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I did,

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do you think that I am

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the first place winner of the whatever?

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Those are the questions we get asked frequently.

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And we can

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clinically understand

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they are validation seeking.

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Praise needy.

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Low self-esteem,

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trying to sort out identity and worth and value kids.

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That would be an easy analysis

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from a very high level of a child that is constantly wanting our opinion about things

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that is a pretty easy synopsis.

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However,

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when we're not providing

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the commentary that they're used to.

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And let me

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sidebar really quickly.

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We are probably

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almost exclusively.

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The

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only person

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in that child's life that does not praise them.

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Therefore,

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They're used to saying,

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do you like this?

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I love it.

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It's amazing.

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It's beautiful.

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You did such a good job.

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Praise,

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praise,

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praise,

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praise,

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external validation,

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external validation,

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your worth is dependent on my opinion.

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OK.

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So

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when a child is conditioned

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to ask a question,

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get a response,

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and then feel better,

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that's a closed loop.

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When we say,

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oh,

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you're wondering what I think,

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but in here you get to decide.

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It rocks their boat.

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Because now the loop didn't get closed first of all.

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Second of all,

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they didn't get validated.

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Third,

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they still don't know what you think

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and they're consumed with it

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because

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I need you to tell me that I have value.

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I need you to tell me that I'm important.

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I need you to tell me that I pleased you.

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And they don't know how to handle

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not having that response.

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So

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when a child says,

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do you like my drawing,

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say yes.

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She closed the loop.

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OK,

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if you're not gonna say it on your own,

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I'm going to tell you to say it to me.

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And in that scenario,

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we would.

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You want me to tell you that I like your drawing.

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Yes,

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I like your drawing.

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Notice how I didn't just say,

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yes,

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I like it.

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I reflected content first to make it very clear

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that I'm doing what I'm told.

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That's a huge distinction in a session,

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y'all.

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If a child says,

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go do that,

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say yes.

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Whatever the demand is,

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we are always absolute on purpose,

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going to acknowledge what we were told.

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And then comply.

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Because we never want it to be misconstrued,

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that we just said,

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I do like your drawing.

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You want me to say that I like your drawing.

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Yes,

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I like your drawing.

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Then it's very clear,

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I'm

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doing what you've asked.

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Rather than

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I'm giving you praise.

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And if we hold that.

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As

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a dyad,

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if you will.

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I will say what you tell me to say or do what you tell me to do,

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but I'm going to make it very clear

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that I'm following instructions.

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That's the way it still remains about the child and not about us.

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And also be mindful,

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Megan,

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and really for all of us,

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this little girl that,

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do you like my drawings,

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say yes.

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Over time,

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she will stop asking and she will stop

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needing an answer from you.

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And ideally,

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she gets to a point where she starts saying,

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I like this.

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And she's working toward that.

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We know this is meaningful work even when she's

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asking what you think and telling you to agree.

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Alright,

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so now let's tackle the second question.

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I have a question about separation anxiety.

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I'm a school-based child-centered play therapist,

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and I'm struggling with a new student.

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Being school-based is different in the sense that I'm there in the morning

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when they are experiencing a full-on tantrum due to their separation anxiety.

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For the past two weeks since school started,

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he takes 1 hour to calm down.

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Once he gets to school and the separation is very hard,

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at this point he has been passed around person

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to person through the school while he tantrums,

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and each person has a range of ways they are dealing with it,

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like letting him call his mom,

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ignoring him,

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pulling him into the classroom,

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holding him,

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making him false promises,

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etc.

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I know all of this is exacerbating the situation.

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I am sure it is.

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He has now been referred to me for therapy,

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but I was wondering how do you think his entrance into the school

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should be handled while he's at his peak moment of separation anxiety?

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What would you say or do?

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What would you recommend for parents to do at home to

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prepare for the separation in the morning at the school?

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And lastly,

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how should the school staff respond to the situation?

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Thank you for any advice.

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I got pulled into the situation today.

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He was put into my office and he cried for an hour.

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It was very hard,

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and I want to help,

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but I felt so overwhelmed.

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I didn't even know where to start.

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All right,

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so,

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Megan,

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I think first and foremost,

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you have to advocate for this little boy,

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and what that means in this scenario

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is you become the point person.

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In other words,

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we can't have 8 different staff people all involved.

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It's like too many cooks in the kitchen,

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right?

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Too many hands in the cookie jar,

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whatever,

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whatever analogy you want to throw in there.

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You can't have

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so many people involved

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because exactly what you're describing is going to happen.

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They're all dealing with it in different ways,

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and he's getting mixed messages.

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He's not feeling safe.

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He's not feeling like he can trust anyone or anything.

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And it keeps shifting and it keeps changing and it's a new person.

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And so what we're going to do,

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especially since you're the school-based CCPT,

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you're going to make the case that you need to be the single point person.

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So please

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instruct every teacher,

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staff,

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whomever

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to just

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call me or bring him directly to me.

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So

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Encourage them to know

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how best to help him.

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Just make sure that as soon as possible,

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the child and I are together.

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Come get me,

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call for me,

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bring him to me,

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whatever.

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Please make sure that as soon as possible,

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it's just me and the child.

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OK,

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so that will alleviate some of all of the confusion and,

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and making everything worse.

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And

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what can you do?

282
00:09:12,599 --> 00:09:12,799
Well,

283
00:09:12,919 --> 00:09:14,969
you're gonna have to sit in the pocket of that.

284
00:09:15,479 --> 00:09:16,919
He has no coping.

285
00:09:17,609 --> 00:09:19,400
He has no self-control.

286
00:09:19,630 --> 00:09:21,270
He has no emotional vocabulary.

287
00:09:22,739 --> 00:09:24,580
All of that will build over time,

288
00:09:25,020 --> 00:09:28,140
but right now he needs someone that is willing to acknowledge

289
00:09:28,140 --> 00:09:31,359
how he feels and sit in the pocket of it with him

290
00:09:31,729 --> 00:09:34,099
and quite honestly let him feel it.

291
00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,299
We don't try to stop a kid from crying.

292
00:09:37,380 --> 00:09:39,820
We don't try to distract a child from their feelings.

293
00:09:39,979 --> 00:09:42,010
We don't try to help them feel better.

294
00:09:42,179 --> 00:09:43,890
We don't try to solve the problem.

295
00:09:44,219 --> 00:09:46,340
We don't kowtow and give in.

296
00:09:46,739 --> 00:09:50,039
We're not making concessions for the child so that he'll stop.

297
00:09:50,419 --> 00:09:54,179
You sit in the pocket of the emotion and you reflect feeling

298
00:09:54,659 --> 00:09:56,559
and you wait

299
00:09:57,059 --> 00:09:58,770
because what the child will learn

300
00:09:59,219 --> 00:09:59,809
is

301
00:10:00,500 --> 00:10:01,500
no one's rescuing me.

302
00:10:02,219 --> 00:10:03,710
No one's saving me from this.

303
00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:05,469
No one's taking me out of this,

304
00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:06,799
no one's making this better.

305
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:07,469
hmm,

306
00:10:07,479 --> 00:10:09,590
I guess I better sort this out for myself.

307
00:10:10,239 --> 00:10:11,539
That's exactly what we want,

308
00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:12,320
self-control,

309
00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:13,559
self regulation.

310
00:10:14,609 --> 00:10:15,419
Resilience,

311
00:10:15,690 --> 00:10:16,349
coping,

312
00:10:16,770 --> 00:10:17,690
problem solving,

313
00:10:17,929 --> 00:10:18,599
on and on.

314
00:10:18,929 --> 00:10:19,479
So

315
00:10:19,890 --> 00:10:21,109
you're really sad,

316
00:10:21,609 --> 00:10:22,679
you're really upset.

317
00:10:23,940 --> 00:10:24,369
You're,

318
00:10:24,380 --> 00:10:25,330
if he's mad,

319
00:10:25,539 --> 00:10:27,219
sometimes kids get mad in situations like that

320
00:10:27,219 --> 00:10:29,130
cause they're trying to mask their vulnerability.

321
00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:29,890
So

322
00:10:30,179 --> 00:10:32,340
you're really angry that you're in here with me.

323
00:10:33,489 --> 00:10:34,090
And you

324
00:10:34,239 --> 00:10:34,940
calmly,

325
00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:35,809
neutrally,

326
00:10:36,140 --> 00:10:37,330
consistently,

327
00:10:37,580 --> 00:10:38,409
just reflect.

328
00:10:39,210 --> 00:10:40,890
And you just wait it out.

329
00:10:41,159 --> 00:10:42,669
He will eventually calm down,

330
00:10:42,719 --> 00:10:44,710
he will eventually regulate himself,

331
00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,109
and he has to learn that he can do it.

332
00:10:47,479 --> 00:10:48,309
Emotions

333
00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,030
are so big when anxiety is involved.

334
00:10:52,190 --> 00:10:56,710
He feels overwhelmed and he feels like he cannot handle life without his mom,

335
00:10:56,789 --> 00:10:57,219
his dad,

336
00:10:57,309 --> 00:10:58,460
whomever it is that

337
00:10:58,750 --> 00:11:00,460
he doesn't want to be apart from.

338
00:11:01,969 --> 00:11:05,760
And he will learn that he is capable of handling life without them,

339
00:11:05,890 --> 00:11:06,280
but

340
00:11:06,530 --> 00:11:08,109
he has to test and prove that theory,

341
00:11:08,130 --> 00:11:09,640
and he has to have one person

342
00:11:09,849 --> 00:11:10,690
that will give him the time,

343
00:11:10,700 --> 00:11:11,049
the tools,

344
00:11:11,059 --> 00:11:12,219
and the opportunity to do it.

345
00:11:12,250 --> 00:11:12,929
And so Megan,

346
00:11:13,010 --> 00:11:14,200
that ideally would be you.

347
00:11:15,159 --> 00:11:16,280
As far as

348
00:11:16,599 --> 00:11:18,640
what should parents say or do.

349
00:11:19,729 --> 00:11:23,250
They should be equipped with choice giving language.

350
00:11:24,570 --> 00:11:24,950
So

351
00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:27,659
You really wish that I could stay at school,

352
00:11:27,780 --> 00:11:29,619
but school's not for moms and dads,

353
00:11:29,659 --> 00:11:31,609
it's just for kids and teachers.

354
00:11:31,979 --> 00:11:32,530
So,

355
00:11:33,059 --> 00:11:35,099
if you choose to go into your classroom,

356
00:11:35,140 --> 00:11:37,809
you choose for me to pick you up as soon as

357
00:11:38,299 --> 00:11:39,080
school is over.

358
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,349
If you choose for me to walk you to your classroom,

359
00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,440
or you can choose for me to drop you off at the car line,

360
00:11:45,479 --> 00:11:46,200
which do you choose?

361
00:11:47,750 --> 00:11:47,760
OK,

362
00:11:48,659 --> 00:11:49,929
we're trying to give choices,

363
00:11:49,940 --> 00:11:51,570
but we're trying to make it clear

364
00:11:52,140 --> 00:11:53,450
schools non-negotiable.

365
00:11:54,059 --> 00:11:56,210
Mom staying is not an option.

366
00:11:56,549 --> 00:11:57,289
child

367
00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:59,770
calling her as soon as he gets to school,

368
00:11:59,900 --> 00:12:00,809
not an option.

369
00:12:01,239 --> 00:12:02,619
There are standards

370
00:12:02,979 --> 00:12:04,320
of being in school

371
00:12:04,820 --> 00:12:10,010
and we're going to help child understand that help understand expectations,

372
00:12:10,460 --> 00:12:11,690
yet at the same time

373
00:12:11,940 --> 00:12:13,320
giving him some choices.

374
00:12:13,770 --> 00:12:16,179
Choices are going to be very important.

375
00:12:16,989 --> 00:12:17,549
So,

376
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:19,880
you can choose for me to walk you to your classroom,

377
00:12:19,919 --> 00:12:21,590
you can choose for me to drop you off here.

378
00:12:21,719 --> 00:12:23,400
You can choose for me to pick you up.

379
00:12:24,450 --> 00:12:27,419
In Carline or you can choose for me to pick you up in the office.

380
00:12:27,630 --> 00:12:31,190
You can choose for me to get you here at 8:10 or

381
00:12:31,190 --> 00:12:33,070
you can choose for me to get you here at 8:15.

382
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:35,330
And all the while,

383
00:12:35,450 --> 00:12:38,559
it's acknowledge his feeling you really wish I could stay.

384
00:12:39,169 --> 00:12:41,919
You really don't like it when I drop you off,

385
00:12:42,239 --> 00:12:42,500
etc.

386
00:12:42,539 --> 00:12:42,900
etc.

387
00:12:43,369 --> 00:12:43,830
but

388
00:12:44,049 --> 00:12:45,140
it's time for school.

389
00:12:45,690 --> 00:12:48,010
But kids go to school without their moms and dads.

390
00:12:48,169 --> 00:12:49,169
Neutral limit.

391
00:12:50,369 --> 00:12:53,000
So they need to get on board with providing that,

392
00:12:53,010 --> 00:12:54,690
and that has to be at a neutral time,

393
00:12:54,849 --> 00:12:55,359
not

394
00:12:55,650 --> 00:12:57,969
in the morning when he's already having a meltdown.

395
00:12:58,289 --> 00:13:00,250
That has to be at like 6 p.m.

396
00:13:00,650 --> 00:13:01,520
the night before.

397
00:13:02,869 --> 00:13:05,419
When the child is calm and neutral,

398
00:13:05,909 --> 00:13:07,789
that's when you want to set that limit.

399
00:13:08,869 --> 00:13:11,380
And then how should school staff respond?

400
00:13:11,460 --> 00:13:11,580
I mean,

401
00:13:11,619 --> 00:13:13,580
I think I already kind of addressed that.

402
00:13:13,979 --> 00:13:15,570
You can either equip them

403
00:13:15,940 --> 00:13:17,729
with CCPT approaches,

404
00:13:18,140 --> 00:13:20,770
but I think the easiest approach would be

405
00:13:21,020 --> 00:13:23,219
you become the single point person for that.

406
00:13:24,340 --> 00:13:25,049
But maybe,

407
00:13:25,059 --> 00:13:25,419
Megan,

408
00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:27,179
you need to talk to

409
00:13:27,460 --> 00:13:30,869
the powers that be and see if you can do an in-service

410
00:13:31,179 --> 00:13:35,409
for teachers and staff and teach them some basic CCPT interaction.

411
00:13:36,010 --> 00:13:39,080
And then you could get the whole school using some of the pillars,

412
00:13:39,090 --> 00:13:40,719
and I think that would help all the students.

413
00:13:40,799 --> 00:13:42,190
So just a thought there.

414
00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:43,409
I'm winking at you.

415
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:44,349
All right.

416
00:13:44,799 --> 00:13:45,030
So,

417
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:45,559
Megan,

418
00:13:45,570 --> 00:13:48,190
thank you for the questions and I hope that's helpful for each of us.

419
00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:48,510
You know,

420
00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:49,429
these are,

421
00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:50,950
these are tricky scenarios

422
00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:52,919
and I think the more confident we feel,

423
00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:54,190
the more equipped we feel,

424
00:13:54,919 --> 00:13:57,270
the more adherent to the model we can be.

425
00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:58,369
So I appreciate y'all.

426
00:13:58,719 --> 00:13:59,070
Love you.

427
00:13:59,080 --> 00:13:59,599
Have a great week.

428
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:00,239
We'll talk again.

429
00:14:00,359 --> 00:14:00,599
Bye.

430
00:14:01,750 --> 00:14:04,510
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.

431
00:14:04,669 --> 00:14:05,609
Brenna Hicks.

432
00:14:05,789 --> 00:14:07,780
For more episodes and resources,

433
00:14:07,869 --> 00:14:12,619
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.