Julia Sutcliffe: chief scientific adviser explains why policymaking must be underpinned by evidence

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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly

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podcast.

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This episode features an interview with the physicist

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Julius Sutcliffe,

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who is chief scientific advisor to the UK's

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department for business and trade.

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In a wide ranging conversation with Physics World's

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Matin Durrani,

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Sutcliffe explains how she began her career as

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a PhD physicist

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before working in systems engineering at British Aerospace,

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where she worked on cutting edge technologies

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including robotics,

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AI, and autonomous systems.

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They also chat about her current role advising

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the UK government

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to ensure that policy making is underpinned

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by the best evidence.

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So I'm delighted to be joined today by

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Julia Sutcliffe,

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who's been chief scientific

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adviser at the UK's

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department for business and trade since early 2023.

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Hello, and welcome to the podcast, Julia. Thank

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you for having me.

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So before we come to your current role,

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I suppose, how did you first get interested

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in physics? You you I mean, you studied

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physics at university, but what what sparked your

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initial interest in the subject?

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Yeah. So thank you. Lovely question. So and

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I I sort of recognize I might be

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a slight oddity here having studied physics and

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at degree in PhD level, then moved into

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sort of a lifetime career in engineering as

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a systems engineer, and then

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most likely becoming a science adviser.

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But physics runs right the way through that

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whole story. So

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so why did I first get involved in

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physics? What fascinated me? I do you know

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what? I think I'd have to go right

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back to being sort of a child of

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the seventies when we went to see big

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sort of feats of engineering and science that

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were developed. And I distinctly remember as a

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child going to see

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things like the Harrier jump jet at a

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windswept airfield in the north of England.

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I go to see the opening of the

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Humber Bridge, and and my grandparents took me

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to see Jodrell Bank.

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And actually,

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at Jodrell Bank for the first time, I

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sort of thought, oh, you can actually do

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this as a job. People here actually do

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this for a living. Oh, amazing.

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And I I was able to buy a

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little sort of booklet about physics

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when I was at Jobel Bank. And

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and so I studied physics at school, 3

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a levels at the time and then a

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levels. And it

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I I just

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I loved the subject. It seems such a

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plucky subject that attempted to describe the various

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fabric of the universe through ticker tape trolleys,

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ripple tanks, and then much more complex equipment

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at university. So I guess I was just

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fascinated

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to sort of learn housing's

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work to some extent.

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And, yeah, went to

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Nottingham University,

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which was, which majored at the time in

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sort of magnetic resonance imaging, semicon,

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and

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quantum.

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Nobel laureate professor Peter Mansfield sir professor Peter

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Mansfield was there as one of the teaching

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and research staff. And, of course,

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sir Andre Geim of Graphene fame was a

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was a post doc there at the time

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that I was there.

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And I worked,

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with Professor Stan Clough and his team,

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to explore the transition from classical to quantum

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mechanics using

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nuclear magnetic resonance.

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We've worked with brilliant researchers in the UK,

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got the opportunity to go and see international

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teams through conferences, etcetera,

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and had an absolutely fantastic

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introduction to

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getting at some of the fundamentals

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that are properties of of matter,

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in my PhD. It was an absolutely amazing

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time and I I really, really thoroughly enjoyed

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it. And the team at Nottingham were absolutely

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brilliant. And I certainly remember that phase very

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fondly.

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So what made you move out of academia

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then? Because you then went off to,

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you ended up at British Aerospace. So what,

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you didn't fancy staying on and having a

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career in academia? What what persuaded you to

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move out of the lab and into,

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outside academia?

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Do you know, I suppose,

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firstly, when I finished my PhD, having been

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so long at in at university,

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I really wanted to just go and see

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some stuff. And so I I had a

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sort of a troubling adventure. I I had

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an ambition to go and,

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ride an elephant through a jungle, ride a

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camel across the desert, see some high mountain.

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So I I went off and did precisely

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those things in India and Nepal and Thailand,

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which was amazing.

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And then sort of came back to the

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UK and thought, right, I better grow up

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quickly and and get a job and start

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earning some money. And I was,

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going to work at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory,

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and then there was a glitch with the

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funding, but I also spoke to National Physics

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Laboratory and others. But I decided to work

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at British Aerospace

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because,

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I went I joined the research center there

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in Bristol,

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and it was a it was a great

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team that were really at the cutting edge

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of sort of applied physics,

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doing really novel things with robotics,

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with autonomy,

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early days of Wi Fi,

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sensing technologies,

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utilizing

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AI, and it it just seemed an absolutely

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fascinating place to work. So

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so yeah. So I I joined,

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the advanced embedded

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systems demonstrator team in the advanced information processing

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department at the research center.

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And we did we did loads of really

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interesting work, things like,

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acoustic emission monitoring of fatigue and cracking in

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air crossed wings and undercarriage, things like that.

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But also I was I was introduced there

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to

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basically to some information

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theory and Bayesian statistics and how you deal

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with uncertainty

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and messy information.

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And we had an emerging,

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what did we were developing a sort of

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mobile robotics laboratory and starting to think about

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networks of things that could,

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in a decentralized

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way, sort of make decisions and sort of

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self organize. And it it might sound really

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simple now, but I suppose it's just worth

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remembering that in those days,

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it was quite a long time ago. You

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know, people didn't have mobile phones.

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Computers that had access to email were often

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on shared servers and the processing power that

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was available and the communications

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bandwidth was

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absolutely minuscule compared to what it is today.

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But it was it was a really active

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and still is active area of research, and,

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I I had a great time there working

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with,

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collab

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colleagues within within British Aerospace, but also collaborators

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across academia.

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Professor Hugh Derek White's group in Oxford, particularly

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on data fusion.

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We were also very interested in what teams

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at

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Carnegie Mellon were doing around

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Mars rover,

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projects and the DARPA Grand Challenge around sort

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of autonomous

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systems. And so it was it was really

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fascinating, really active academic and sort of innovation,

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sort of engineering,

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teams.

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So it was, yeah, it was great. And

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one of the first things I was asked

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to do

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was review the the state of the art

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in AI. And so we are into sort

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of fuzzy logic and machine vision

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at the time. And all of this sort

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of coupled with the sort of uncertainty,

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the need to make decisions.

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And so it was it was absolutely fascinating.

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And I sort of mentioned the AI bit

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there because I

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I will return to that later. But just

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thinking about my PhD in

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quantum mechanics, and then my first

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first investigation

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was to look at the to review the

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state of the art in AI.

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You know, couple of decades later,

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the prime minister is talking about those topics.

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And it it just

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serves to show that the wavelength of technology

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development of application

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is long. And I know we're very used

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to at the moment thinking there's a rapid

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pace of technology development.

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But actually,

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if what is not seen or not as

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obvious to people

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is this huge community of engineers,

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technicians,

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technologists,

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scientists that have been developing

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these areas of technology for years decades. So,

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yeah. So it was it was absolutely fascinating.

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And

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I can talk about,

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some of the interesting stuff that I did

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both in the UK, but, of course, I

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then

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transferred out to the Australian arm of the

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business. So

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I can some stuff there if that's helpful,

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because that was another kind of adventure altogether.

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Well, let's come maybe come back to that.

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Let's, I mean, it all sounds fascinating

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and you're at the forefront of things, I

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suppose.

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So why did you decide to join the

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Department of Business and Trade as chief science

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adviser? You talked about complex systems. I suppose

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there's nothing more complex than the political world.

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And trying to get your,

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must be very difficult,

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you know, was it a difficult transition from

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the tech arena to doing what you do

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now?

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So I I

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think to answer that

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and perhaps give you an understanding of of

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perhaps why and what enabled the transition was

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when I worked in industry

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as

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technologist, chief engineer, chief technologist,

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always involved in that sort of innovation ecosystem

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and trying to pull through sort of technology

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development that leveraged

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fundamental discovery science across a range of areas,

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such as AI, robotics,

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human machine teaming, virtual reality, augmented reality, etcetera.

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Trying to pull that through into products that

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you can get into the marketplace

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at the right time that are competitive

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is super,

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super difficult.

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It's really challenging

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because so many things

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need to align. So just to

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to just give you some,

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examples of that, which will help make sense

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of of the answer that I'm coming to.

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So you need to have technology readiness

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aligned.

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So the technology has to be ready. So

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whether that's AI, whether it's quantum,

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or whether it's

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00:10:56,845 --> 00:11:00,684
advanced manufacturing processes or material science, it it's

279
00:11:00,684 --> 00:11:02,524
got to be at a state of readiness

280
00:11:02,524 --> 00:11:03,965
so that you can pull it through into

281
00:11:03,965 --> 00:11:04,465
products.

282
00:11:05,590 --> 00:11:06,970
But you also need

283
00:11:07,590 --> 00:11:10,389
skills. So you're not in in the sort

284
00:11:10,389 --> 00:11:10,889
of,

285
00:11:12,550 --> 00:11:13,910
you're not in the sort of proof of

286
00:11:13,910 --> 00:11:15,830
concept phase. When you're pulling it through into

287
00:11:15,830 --> 00:11:17,910
product, you need skills that are not just

288
00:11:17,910 --> 00:11:18,410
technologists,

289
00:11:18,950 --> 00:11:19,450
engineers.

290
00:11:20,115 --> 00:11:21,095
You also need

291
00:11:21,394 --> 00:11:24,375
project managers, risk managers. You need a commercial

292
00:11:24,434 --> 00:11:26,434
team that can sort of really make those

293
00:11:26,434 --> 00:11:28,215
sort of product and commercial decisions.

294
00:11:29,235 --> 00:11:30,215
You need infrastructure.

295
00:11:30,754 --> 00:11:33,894
So test environments are really, really important.

296
00:11:34,940 --> 00:11:37,019
And that can be big and complex test

297
00:11:37,019 --> 00:11:39,340
environments, or it can be smaller, much more

298
00:11:39,340 --> 00:11:40,480
contained environments.

299
00:11:41,179 --> 00:11:43,340
But typically, as part of that, you will

300
00:11:43,340 --> 00:11:45,600
also be working with regulators

301
00:11:46,875 --> 00:11:49,995
because it's really important when you're going to

302
00:11:49,995 --> 00:11:50,495
invest

303
00:11:50,955 --> 00:11:54,154
a significant amount of time, effort, resource into

304
00:11:54,154 --> 00:11:55,375
generating product.

305
00:11:56,075 --> 00:11:57,595
You need to know that you're gonna get

306
00:11:57,595 --> 00:11:59,674
it through the regulatory framework. You need to

307
00:11:59,674 --> 00:12:01,375
know that it's going to be accepted.

308
00:12:02,699 --> 00:12:04,379
And then in addition to the sort of

309
00:12:04,379 --> 00:12:06,879
regulatory side of things, you need

310
00:12:07,339 --> 00:12:10,079
you need access to finance. You need capital

311
00:12:10,379 --> 00:12:10,879
potentially

312
00:12:11,259 --> 00:12:11,759
to

313
00:12:12,220 --> 00:12:12,720
invest

314
00:12:13,259 --> 00:12:15,679
in large scale sort of complex demonstrators.

315
00:12:16,424 --> 00:12:18,585
You need access to the markets, and you

316
00:12:18,585 --> 00:12:21,784
need the appropriate level of risk appetite for

317
00:12:21,784 --> 00:12:23,404
the products that you've got.

318
00:12:23,865 --> 00:12:26,365
So I spent a long time working on

319
00:12:26,424 --> 00:12:29,804
uncreened air vehicles and autonomous systems,

320
00:12:30,410 --> 00:12:32,410
and getting that into the market was very

321
00:12:32,410 --> 00:12:34,250
much dependent on where the sort of risk

322
00:12:34,250 --> 00:12:35,629
appetite was. And

323
00:12:35,930 --> 00:12:38,649
now if public perception goes against you, then

324
00:12:38,649 --> 00:12:40,809
it's it's really challenging no matter how good

325
00:12:40,809 --> 00:12:43,945
your technology is. So so having all of

326
00:12:43,945 --> 00:12:46,424
those things lined up is really important to

327
00:12:46,424 --> 00:12:48,125
support the kind of innovation,

328
00:12:48,904 --> 00:12:52,664
engineering, science community, pull through great ideas into

329
00:12:52,664 --> 00:12:55,644
products that then allow companies to grow,

330
00:12:56,170 --> 00:12:57,070
increase productivity,

331
00:12:57,529 --> 00:12:58,429
trade internationally,

332
00:12:58,730 --> 00:12:59,230
etcetera.

333
00:13:00,090 --> 00:13:00,590
So

334
00:13:02,090 --> 00:13:03,710
having had a sort

335
00:13:04,090 --> 00:13:04,750
of multiple

336
00:13:05,050 --> 00:13:06,889
amazing ventures with,

337
00:13:07,290 --> 00:13:10,029
British Aerospace and then BA Systems in Australia,

338
00:13:11,304 --> 00:13:13,404
it felt like a few years ago,

339
00:13:13,865 --> 00:13:15,544
sort of the the first time that I

340
00:13:15,544 --> 00:13:17,865
could sort of recall in my career history

341
00:13:17,865 --> 00:13:18,365
where

342
00:13:18,985 --> 00:13:20,684
everybody was talking about

343
00:13:21,065 --> 00:13:23,945
the power of science and technology to really

344
00:13:23,945 --> 00:13:24,445
underpin

345
00:13:25,625 --> 00:13:28,690
growth within the UK and to really address

346
00:13:28,690 --> 00:13:30,149
some of the challenges around

347
00:13:30,769 --> 00:13:31,590
net 0,

348
00:13:33,009 --> 00:13:35,910
just security and resilience, supply chain resilience,

349
00:13:36,610 --> 00:13:37,590
health and well-being.

350
00:13:38,529 --> 00:13:41,075
And so seeing that some prime minister was

351
00:13:41,075 --> 00:13:42,294
talking about technologies,

352
00:13:42,995 --> 00:13:45,235
we have departments that were set up that

353
00:13:45,235 --> 00:13:48,134
were there to drive innovation, science, and technology.

354
00:13:49,075 --> 00:13:51,955
It it just felt a really interesting time

355
00:13:51,955 --> 00:13:53,414
to sort of move across

356
00:13:54,179 --> 00:13:56,360
and think about how I could add value

357
00:13:56,500 --> 00:13:57,860
on the other side of the fence, if

358
00:13:57,860 --> 00:14:00,179
you will. And I I'd spoken to a

359
00:14:00,179 --> 00:14:02,899
few other chief scientific advisers to sort of

360
00:14:02,899 --> 00:14:05,000
scope out what is the actual role,

361
00:14:05,620 --> 00:14:07,220
and is it something that I think I

362
00:14:07,220 --> 00:14:09,160
could add value to? So

363
00:14:09,674 --> 00:14:11,615
so that sort of background in industry

364
00:14:12,794 --> 00:14:15,274
and what it takes to traverse that arc

365
00:14:15,274 --> 00:14:17,534
of technology into trade or products,

366
00:14:18,075 --> 00:14:20,154
I felt was was an insight that that

367
00:14:20,154 --> 00:14:22,149
would help me in this role. So what

368
00:14:22,149 --> 00:14:24,549
are the main functions as chief science adviser?

369
00:14:24,549 --> 00:14:26,389
Is it a a full time role? And,

370
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:27,830
you know, how do you fit in with

371
00:14:27,830 --> 00:14:29,370
the other people in the department?

372
00:14:30,389 --> 00:14:32,470
Yeah. So it is absolutely a full time

373
00:14:32,470 --> 00:14:34,809
role. So the the role of the

374
00:14:35,350 --> 00:14:37,605
the chief scientific adviser is is

375
00:14:38,164 --> 00:14:39,865
multiple aspects to it. But predominantly,

376
00:14:41,524 --> 00:14:43,065
is to provide advice

377
00:14:43,605 --> 00:14:47,365
on all aspects of science, technologies, of engineering

378
00:14:47,365 --> 00:14:49,384
innovation, if you will, into

379
00:14:50,179 --> 00:14:53,700
ministers and officials, into the policy making teams,

380
00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:55,000
etcetera. So that

381
00:14:55,779 --> 00:14:59,779
policy making and decision making is underpinned with

382
00:14:59,779 --> 00:15:01,080
the very best evidence

383
00:15:02,204 --> 00:15:04,464
in terms of the science and the technology.

384
00:15:04,924 --> 00:15:07,485
So in full cognizance of what science and

385
00:15:07,485 --> 00:15:09,105
technology is is saying,

386
00:15:09,644 --> 00:15:12,365
we know that science and technology is not

387
00:15:12,365 --> 00:15:12,865
exact.

388
00:15:13,725 --> 00:15:16,444
It's a continual evolution process. So having the

389
00:15:16,444 --> 00:15:16,799
most

390
00:15:17,759 --> 00:15:20,899
current understanding of of of the sciences

391
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,159
is important. So that's a key role for

392
00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:24,559
the,

393
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:26,179
CSA team.

394
00:15:27,519 --> 00:15:30,159
I therefore have accountability in the department to

395
00:15:30,159 --> 00:15:30,240
make sure that the structures and mechanisms to

396
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:31,952
provide that advice in at the right times

397
00:15:31,952 --> 00:15:34,254
are in place. So, a lot of departments

398
00:15:34,254 --> 00:15:35,875
have science advisory councils and different

399
00:15:36,575 --> 00:15:38,095
independent bodies that sort of sit and provide

400
00:15:38,095 --> 00:15:38,835
sort of advice

401
00:15:47,309 --> 00:15:49,009
into departments and CSAs

402
00:15:49,389 --> 00:15:50,529
access that advice

403
00:15:51,470 --> 00:15:52,210
to convene

404
00:15:52,990 --> 00:15:55,330
expert groups, etcetera. So

405
00:15:56,110 --> 00:15:58,590
so that's important that we have a, if

406
00:15:58,590 --> 00:16:00,615
you like, a science system that allows us

407
00:16:00,615 --> 00:16:01,192
to generate the right advice at the right

408
00:16:01,192 --> 00:16:02,495
time. There is then also a kind of

409
00:16:02,495 --> 00:16:04,894
a almost an ambassadorial role for science within

410
00:16:04,894 --> 00:16:06,995
the department and for the department outside of

411
00:16:07,054 --> 00:16:09,315
government. So that interface with business,

412
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,399
understanding what businesses need. So I'm talking from

413
00:16:19,399 --> 00:16:21,800
a department of business and trade perspective now

414
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,220
very much around how businesses

415
00:16:24,759 --> 00:16:27,580
want to grow, what kind of technology insights

416
00:16:27,639 --> 00:16:30,955
they need, that list of things, infrastructure skills,

417
00:16:30,955 --> 00:16:32,014
finance, etcetera.

418
00:16:32,554 --> 00:16:35,035
What the narrative is from the business community

419
00:16:35,035 --> 00:16:36,815
and the different sectors around that.

420
00:16:37,274 --> 00:16:38,095
That's important.

421
00:16:38,634 --> 00:16:40,795
And and indeed, I had, for example, the

422
00:16:40,795 --> 00:16:42,175
great privilege of leading

423
00:16:42,519 --> 00:16:46,059
the UK delegation of innovators out to Taiwan

424
00:16:46,519 --> 00:16:49,240
for the semiconductor conference around about this time

425
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:50,379
last year. So

426
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,639
so we get to do really interesting stuff

427
00:16:53,639 --> 00:16:55,339
with the community as well.

428
00:16:55,795 --> 00:16:56,855
And then, of course,

429
00:16:57,315 --> 00:17:00,054
I should also mention that the chief scientific

430
00:17:00,195 --> 00:17:02,595
advisers, of which there is one in all

431
00:17:02,595 --> 00:17:03,495
government departments,

432
00:17:04,595 --> 00:17:07,075
work together as a network team under the

433
00:17:07,075 --> 00:17:09,955
sort of government chief scientific adviser, Jay Manuel

434
00:17:09,955 --> 00:17:10,455
Matrayne,

435
00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:15,349
to resolve any cross cutting issues, point out

436
00:17:15,349 --> 00:17:17,130
where there are leverage opportunities.

437
00:17:17,829 --> 00:17:20,089
And and you will know well that,

438
00:17:21,750 --> 00:17:24,069
on many of the challenges that we that

439
00:17:24,069 --> 00:17:26,250
we have ahead, that there are opportunities

440
00:17:27,005 --> 00:17:29,345
and a much of that science and technology

441
00:17:29,565 --> 00:17:31,985
that underpins that is cross cutting.

442
00:17:32,365 --> 00:17:35,884
It's relevant to the political department. So bringing

443
00:17:35,884 --> 00:17:38,285
that community together that can speak as one

444
00:17:38,285 --> 00:17:38,785
voice

445
00:17:39,325 --> 00:17:42,305
of as experts is is really important.

446
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:44,599
So the next question I had was, you

447
00:17:44,599 --> 00:17:46,759
know, what are the main items on your

448
00:17:46,759 --> 00:17:48,039
sort of in tray at the moment? What

449
00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:49,480
are the most pressing issues? I mean, has

450
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:50,679
there been a change? We've got a new

451
00:17:50,679 --> 00:17:52,279
government in the UK. Has there been a

452
00:17:52,279 --> 00:17:54,599
new change of direction? Or so what are

453
00:17:54,599 --> 00:17:55,960
the main issues that you're dealing with at

454
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,220
the moment? You mentioned AI being important

455
00:17:58,565 --> 00:18:00,724
and, I guess, sort of things like, you

456
00:18:00,724 --> 00:18:02,724
know, so what what is the main main

457
00:18:02,724 --> 00:18:03,625
things at the moment?

458
00:18:04,325 --> 00:18:05,065
Yeah. So,

459
00:18:05,684 --> 00:18:08,484
you all have you'll have seen, as and

460
00:18:08,484 --> 00:18:10,825
as you mentioned, sort of AI has been

461
00:18:10,884 --> 00:18:12,345
a a a really big scene.

462
00:18:14,750 --> 00:18:17,309
In certain the previous government really majored on

463
00:18:17,309 --> 00:18:17,809
that.

464
00:18:20,990 --> 00:18:23,650
So what our key issues are how to

465
00:18:24,109 --> 00:18:24,609
leverage

466
00:18:25,565 --> 00:18:28,224
the things that we have really good strategic

467
00:18:28,365 --> 00:18:30,285
advantages. So we are well known for our

468
00:18:30,285 --> 00:18:31,825
science and technology baseline.

469
00:18:32,924 --> 00:18:35,724
We have excellent science and technology in the

470
00:18:35,724 --> 00:18:38,625
UK. We're internationally recognized for that.

471
00:18:39,005 --> 00:18:42,440
How to then utilize that to drive growth?

472
00:18:42,740 --> 00:18:45,079
So the new government has announced,

473
00:18:45,779 --> 00:18:48,500
that in their manifesto that they want an

474
00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:51,960
industrial strategy. They've talked about growth missions,

475
00:18:52,420 --> 00:18:52,920
green,

476
00:18:53,244 --> 00:18:54,865
clean energy missions, etcetera.

477
00:18:55,565 --> 00:18:56,944
So how we utilize

478
00:18:57,565 --> 00:19:00,684
that bedrock of brilliant scientists and engineers and

479
00:19:00,684 --> 00:19:02,765
all the capabilities we have, how we can

480
00:19:02,765 --> 00:19:03,505
hear that,

481
00:19:04,444 --> 00:19:07,265
to enable those outcomes is super important.

482
00:19:08,009 --> 00:19:10,089
And what does that mean, you know, up

483
00:19:10,089 --> 00:19:12,330
and down the country, regionally? What does it

484
00:19:12,330 --> 00:19:14,750
mean in terms of different sectors? And,

485
00:19:15,529 --> 00:19:18,410
so, yeah, just supporting that sort of that

486
00:19:18,410 --> 00:19:19,309
sort of great

487
00:19:19,690 --> 00:19:21,609
opportunity we have in front of us at

488
00:19:21,609 --> 00:19:22,589
the moment. Those

489
00:19:23,224 --> 00:19:25,404
key challenges are also big opportunities

490
00:19:26,184 --> 00:19:29,325
for businesses and for growth, great jobs, etcetera.

491
00:19:29,464 --> 00:19:29,964
So

492
00:19:31,224 --> 00:19:33,144
And in that role as chief science adviser,

493
00:19:33,144 --> 00:19:35,384
what sort of skills do you personally need?

494
00:19:35,384 --> 00:19:36,869
What do you bring to the table that,

495
00:19:37,509 --> 00:19:39,589
obviously, you're not doing science anymore, but I

496
00:19:39,589 --> 00:19:42,549
I I imagine it's sort of orchestrating people

497
00:19:42,549 --> 00:19:45,589
and, persuading people and, you know, being a

498
00:19:45,589 --> 00:19:47,509
champion. Are those the kind of things that

499
00:19:47,509 --> 00:19:49,190
you need to be good at? Yeah. Well,

500
00:19:49,190 --> 00:19:51,884
that's a lovely, lovely question. So I I

501
00:19:51,884 --> 00:19:53,585
think there are kind of 2

502
00:19:54,285 --> 00:19:54,785
superpowers

503
00:19:55,644 --> 00:19:57,025
that the this community

504
00:19:57,325 --> 00:19:57,825
has.

505
00:19:59,085 --> 00:20:02,285
The first one is absolutely gleaned through doing

506
00:20:02,285 --> 00:20:04,305
physics, and that is the scientific

507
00:20:04,684 --> 00:20:05,184
method.

508
00:20:05,724 --> 00:20:06,545
The ability

509
00:20:06,924 --> 00:20:07,424
to

510
00:20:07,750 --> 00:20:08,730
put out a framework,

511
00:20:09,269 --> 00:20:10,409
create some experiments,

512
00:20:10,789 --> 00:20:12,009
understand the results,

513
00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:12,890
analyze,

514
00:20:13,429 --> 00:20:14,329
adapt your

515
00:20:14,789 --> 00:20:15,289
understanding

516
00:20:15,589 --> 00:20:16,809
of whatever it is,

517
00:20:17,589 --> 00:20:19,929
and and to present the outcomes.

518
00:20:20,309 --> 00:20:21,529
So as we mentioned,

519
00:20:22,204 --> 00:20:23,345
science is a continual

520
00:20:23,644 --> 00:20:27,184
process. So so the scientific method, that structural

521
00:20:27,325 --> 00:20:27,825
approach

522
00:20:28,605 --> 00:20:29,105
is

523
00:20:29,404 --> 00:20:30,384
super important.

524
00:20:31,325 --> 00:20:32,865
I think the the other thing

525
00:20:33,164 --> 00:20:35,490
in in my case, having been a systems

526
00:20:35,549 --> 00:20:39,309
engineer in industry for 26 years before doing

527
00:20:39,309 --> 00:20:40,049
this job,

528
00:20:40,829 --> 00:20:43,630
the other sort of core element that's very

529
00:20:43,630 --> 00:20:45,169
relevant time now

530
00:20:45,549 --> 00:20:48,690
is the understanding of systems problems

531
00:20:50,054 --> 00:20:52,714
and systems challenges. That systems thinking

532
00:20:53,575 --> 00:20:55,115
where you understand

533
00:20:55,494 --> 00:20:56,714
or can organize

534
00:20:57,494 --> 00:21:00,534
the different facets of the problem. So whether

535
00:21:00,534 --> 00:21:02,840
it's, you know, we used to do this

536
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:03,660
all the time,

537
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,920
in industry, but certainly in government where you

538
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:07,980
sort of pick out

539
00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:10,360
what are the core requirements, what are the

540
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:10,860
stakeholders,

541
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:12,920
where are the trade offs, where are the

542
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,160
balances, if I do this over here, what

543
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:16,305
happens over here?

544
00:21:16,785 --> 00:21:18,005
There are few problems

545
00:21:18,945 --> 00:21:20,325
that are not

546
00:21:20,705 --> 00:21:23,105
systems problems. At a government level, these are

547
00:21:23,105 --> 00:21:25,365
like large scale national,

548
00:21:26,144 --> 00:21:26,644
international

549
00:21:26,945 --> 00:21:27,445
agendas.

550
00:21:27,985 --> 00:21:31,509
So that ability to think in a systems

551
00:21:31,649 --> 00:21:33,109
mindset is really important.

552
00:21:33,970 --> 00:21:36,210
And then the third thing that you touched

553
00:21:36,210 --> 00:21:38,230
on, Martin, is is actually

554
00:21:38,849 --> 00:21:40,789
the ability to bring people together.

555
00:21:41,250 --> 00:21:43,809
We know that science, technology, and engineering is

556
00:21:43,809 --> 00:21:44,789
a team sport.

557
00:21:45,250 --> 00:21:48,515
This is not a solo endeavor usually. Whilst

558
00:21:48,515 --> 00:21:50,755
we might have great names that that win

559
00:21:50,755 --> 00:21:52,055
prizes and that's brilliant,

560
00:21:53,315 --> 00:21:55,555
a lot of what goes into the sort

561
00:21:55,555 --> 00:21:57,555
of blood, sweat, and tears of pushing things

562
00:21:57,555 --> 00:21:59,255
through into products and innovations,

563
00:21:59,634 --> 00:22:03,019
it's it's a team sport. It's really, really

564
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:03,660
collaborative

565
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:04,859
across

566
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,980
international borders, and it's across across academia, government,

567
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:11,180
business.

568
00:22:12,039 --> 00:22:12,619
You know,

569
00:22:13,085 --> 00:22:14,464
it was an an incredibly,

570
00:22:16,525 --> 00:22:20,464
vibrant, collaborative community. And so the ability to

571
00:22:20,605 --> 00:22:21,105
network,

572
00:22:21,805 --> 00:22:23,585
bring people together, convene,

573
00:22:24,845 --> 00:22:26,765
groups so that we can answer some of

574
00:22:26,765 --> 00:22:29,920
those challenging questions is is a really important

575
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:31,759
thing as well. And there are some great

576
00:22:31,759 --> 00:22:32,259
organizations

577
00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:33,059
around

578
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,840
some of this, like, Royal Society, Royal Academy

579
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,380
of Engineering, Engineering Institutions,

580
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:38,580
IOP,

581
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,964
that all help to do that.

582
00:22:41,525 --> 00:22:42,724
I mean, you've been in the job about

583
00:22:42,724 --> 00:22:44,164
18 months. So what are the sort of

584
00:22:44,244 --> 00:22:46,325
what are the best and things you like

585
00:22:46,325 --> 00:22:47,924
most and the things you like least about

586
00:22:47,924 --> 00:22:49,204
the job? And can you point to any

587
00:22:49,204 --> 00:22:51,044
particular achievements that you've had? You go, right.

588
00:22:51,044 --> 00:22:51,704
This has

589
00:22:52,005 --> 00:22:53,605
done that. This is one really great thing

590
00:22:53,605 --> 00:22:55,819
that I've I've managed to sort of, you

591
00:22:55,819 --> 00:22:57,440
know, change in your time.

592
00:22:58,460 --> 00:23:00,799
I think if you were to,

593
00:23:02,619 --> 00:23:03,099
ask,

594
00:23:03,579 --> 00:23:05,119
Dame Angela about her,

595
00:23:06,059 --> 00:23:07,980
objectives, one of the things she talks about

596
00:23:07,980 --> 00:23:08,480
is

597
00:23:08,940 --> 00:23:11,359
making the civil service more scientific.

598
00:23:11,765 --> 00:23:13,865
And indeed, that's what previous,

599
00:23:14,404 --> 00:23:17,205
government chief scientific adviser, Patrick Valance, was keen

600
00:23:17,205 --> 00:23:18,184
on as well.

601
00:23:18,485 --> 00:23:19,545
So so actually,

602
00:23:20,085 --> 00:23:22,505
part of what I'm doing within my department

603
00:23:23,525 --> 00:23:25,705
is bringing that sort of science, engineering,

604
00:23:26,569 --> 00:23:29,150
and structure into those sort of conversations

605
00:23:30,009 --> 00:23:32,410
and recognizing that those skills that we talked

606
00:23:32,410 --> 00:23:33,950
about, that sort of methodological

607
00:23:34,410 --> 00:23:36,109
approach, the systems thinking,

608
00:23:36,809 --> 00:23:39,930
that's really important. So gradually, over a period

609
00:23:39,930 --> 00:23:42,214
of time, working with teams sort of just

610
00:23:42,214 --> 00:23:44,234
to sort of bring that sort of scientific

611
00:23:44,375 --> 00:23:45,835
analysis, that engineering

612
00:23:46,775 --> 00:23:47,275
understanding

613
00:23:47,894 --> 00:23:50,154
to to the work that we do is

614
00:23:50,214 --> 00:23:51,674
a key part of it.

615
00:23:53,414 --> 00:23:56,190
What have I really enjoyed? I've really, really

616
00:23:56,190 --> 00:23:56,690
enjoyed

617
00:23:56,990 --> 00:23:59,410
the the colleagues that I've met. So

618
00:23:59,950 --> 00:24:00,609
the problems

619
00:24:01,150 --> 00:24:02,369
are amazingly

620
00:24:02,910 --> 00:24:03,410
complex,

621
00:24:03,869 --> 00:24:04,369
interesting

622
00:24:04,829 --> 00:24:07,809
problems. And if we can address them,

623
00:24:08,505 --> 00:24:09,005
then

624
00:24:09,384 --> 00:24:11,945
the the founding that they'll create is something

625
00:24:11,945 --> 00:24:14,605
that we can really be proud of. So

626
00:24:15,224 --> 00:24:16,125
that's that's

627
00:24:16,505 --> 00:24:18,505
really privileged to be in that sort of

628
00:24:18,505 --> 00:24:19,005
situation.

629
00:24:19,545 --> 00:24:21,644
But then the colleagues that I work with

630
00:24:22,230 --> 00:24:24,630
are amazing. I mean, I've had that throughout

631
00:24:24,630 --> 00:24:25,369
my career.

632
00:24:25,829 --> 00:24:28,089
I've been very lucky to work with absolutely

633
00:24:28,150 --> 00:24:30,630
brilliant people that are on their game, that

634
00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:31,130
absolutely,

635
00:24:32,470 --> 00:24:35,275
know what they're doing, are so capable, so

636
00:24:35,275 --> 00:24:37,855
intelligent, as have been so welcoming. So,

637
00:24:38,154 --> 00:24:40,734
I've really, really enjoyed that. And the transition

638
00:24:41,434 --> 00:24:44,075
hasn't been as difficult as as it could

639
00:24:44,075 --> 00:24:44,734
have been

640
00:24:45,035 --> 00:24:46,015
because, actually,

641
00:24:46,849 --> 00:24:48,470
colleagues have been so welcoming.

642
00:24:49,330 --> 00:24:50,849
If you thinking more widely, if there was

643
00:24:50,849 --> 00:24:52,849
sort of one thing in science and engineering

644
00:24:52,849 --> 00:24:54,369
that you could you could change if you

645
00:24:54,369 --> 00:24:55,730
had a magic wand and could do it

646
00:24:55,730 --> 00:24:57,809
overnight, what would you what would you change

647
00:24:57,809 --> 00:25:00,095
to sort of, you know, help,

648
00:25:00,494 --> 00:25:03,634
you know, boost innovation and technology and businesses

649
00:25:03,855 --> 00:25:05,535
in your role that you're trying to do?

650
00:25:05,535 --> 00:25:08,555
Do you know? I honestly think it's it's

651
00:25:08,815 --> 00:25:10,115
probably bringing

652
00:25:10,894 --> 00:25:12,035
science and technology

653
00:25:12,654 --> 00:25:14,355
into mainstream into mainstream dialogue. So sometimes science

654
00:25:14,575 --> 00:25:15,075
is,

655
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:16,460
dialogue.

656
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:18,460
So sometimes

657
00:25:18,759 --> 00:25:21,000
science has perhaps seen a bit overly. It's

658
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,759
sort of over there. There's a set of

659
00:25:22,759 --> 00:25:24,759
r and d people that do something over

660
00:25:24,759 --> 00:25:25,259
there.

661
00:25:26,759 --> 00:25:27,500
But actually,

662
00:25:28,404 --> 00:25:30,884
bringing it into just mainstream dialogue, it's not

663
00:25:30,884 --> 00:25:33,845
something to be frightened of. It's it's something

664
00:25:33,845 --> 00:25:35,224
that is really embracing.

665
00:25:36,085 --> 00:25:39,545
It's really collaborative. It's a really supportive community.

666
00:25:40,085 --> 00:25:41,464
I think that is,

667
00:25:42,250 --> 00:25:44,329
something that we all aspire to sort of

668
00:25:44,329 --> 00:25:46,569
see, and that will be of great benefit

669
00:25:46,569 --> 00:25:47,789
to be able to

670
00:25:49,049 --> 00:25:51,630
to have that sort of narrative, that dialogue

671
00:25:51,690 --> 00:25:54,410
that's just seen as mainstream and as part

672
00:25:54,410 --> 00:25:55,605
of day to day.

673
00:25:56,644 --> 00:25:57,144
Interestingly,

674
00:25:59,525 --> 00:26:01,684
I had the great privilege of going to

675
00:26:01,684 --> 00:26:04,265
visit CERN earlier this year.

676
00:26:05,365 --> 00:26:05,865
And

677
00:26:06,404 --> 00:26:08,644
I was struck by the fact when I

678
00:26:08,644 --> 00:26:10,549
went there that that actually

679
00:26:10,849 --> 00:26:13,409
there was a small percentage of people who

680
00:26:13,409 --> 00:26:15,990
were doing physics research, particle physics,

681
00:26:16,769 --> 00:26:19,490
a much larger percentage of people who were

682
00:26:19,490 --> 00:26:19,990
technicians,

683
00:26:20,609 --> 00:26:21,909
computer scientists,

684
00:26:23,065 --> 00:26:26,445
you know, engineers that were building, running, designing,

685
00:26:26,505 --> 00:26:29,305
developing the whole thing. So I think just

686
00:26:29,305 --> 00:26:29,805
recognizing

687
00:26:30,825 --> 00:26:33,245
the sort of strength of science and engineering

688
00:26:33,305 --> 00:26:34,230
that we have

689
00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:36,490
and and making that more

690
00:26:36,789 --> 00:26:37,289
mainstream

691
00:26:37,669 --> 00:26:40,789
because our understanding and appreciation of it would

692
00:26:40,789 --> 00:26:42,730
be would be really great to have.

693
00:26:43,429 --> 00:26:45,669
Absolutely. And I I probably concur with you

694
00:26:45,669 --> 00:26:47,474
on that one. Before we finish, you know,

695
00:26:47,474 --> 00:26:49,154
looking back on your career, is there any

696
00:26:49,154 --> 00:26:50,755
one thing, you know, if you look back

697
00:26:50,755 --> 00:26:52,214
at, say, your younger self,

698
00:26:52,674 --> 00:26:54,914
what would you wish you'd known to back

699
00:26:54,914 --> 00:26:56,535
then that you now know today,

700
00:26:56,994 --> 00:26:59,015
that you could have told your previous self

701
00:26:59,234 --> 00:27:00,934
as you started out your career?

702
00:27:01,714 --> 00:27:02,160
Yeah.

703
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,580
Gosh, Janelle. Probably that anything is possible.

704
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:08,340
I I genuinely

705
00:27:09,279 --> 00:27:12,160
do believe that the engineering and science community

706
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:13,059
is very meritocratic.

707
00:27:13,599 --> 00:27:15,140
It's hugely collaborative.

708
00:27:15,934 --> 00:27:18,515
There is a lot of space for everybody.

709
00:27:19,694 --> 00:27:20,434
And so

710
00:27:21,214 --> 00:27:23,214
I would just don't be afraid to take

711
00:27:23,214 --> 00:27:24,994
the plunge. You know, it's

712
00:27:25,375 --> 00:27:26,674
it's really welcoming.

713
00:27:26,974 --> 00:27:28,755
And and as I say, it's

714
00:27:29,109 --> 00:27:31,349
it's really important that more and more people

715
00:27:31,349 --> 00:27:33,049
see this as something that's mainstream.

716
00:27:33,829 --> 00:27:34,549
And so,

717
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:37,669
yeah, if anybody has got a slight thought

718
00:27:37,669 --> 00:27:39,589
about doing something to do with science and

719
00:27:39,589 --> 00:27:40,089
engineering

720
00:27:40,710 --> 00:27:42,889
or maths, then I would just say absolutely

721
00:27:43,029 --> 00:27:44,569
go for it. Be unafraid.

722
00:27:45,005 --> 00:27:46,144
It's really welcoming.

723
00:27:46,765 --> 00:27:48,144
There are amazing

724
00:27:48,445 --> 00:27:48,945
challenges

725
00:27:49,644 --> 00:27:50,384
to solve

726
00:27:50,684 --> 00:27:53,005
that will be available for you to be

727
00:27:53,005 --> 00:27:53,904
involved in.

728
00:27:54,205 --> 00:27:54,705
So,

729
00:27:55,085 --> 00:27:57,404
yeah, it's a brilliant time to be a

730
00:27:57,404 --> 00:27:58,465
scientist, engineer,

731
00:27:58,845 --> 00:27:59,345
mathematician.

732
00:27:59,725 --> 00:28:00,225
So,

733
00:28:00,765 --> 00:28:02,519
yeah, don't be afraid. Take the plunge.

734
00:28:03,140 --> 00:28:05,460
Brilliant. That's a very lovely message to finish

735
00:28:05,460 --> 00:28:06,539
off. What are you doing for the rest

736
00:28:06,539 --> 00:28:07,240
of the day?

737
00:28:07,859 --> 00:28:10,019
Give us an insight into what the CSA

738
00:28:10,019 --> 00:28:11,940
does day to day. What's what's what happens

739
00:28:11,940 --> 00:28:13,299
to be the next thing on your agenda

740
00:28:13,299 --> 00:28:13,799
today?

741
00:28:14,234 --> 00:28:16,154
Well, so the next thing on the agenda

742
00:28:16,154 --> 00:28:17,615
is going to be a team meeting,

743
00:28:18,555 --> 00:28:20,634
where we'll go through the work that's ahead

744
00:28:20,634 --> 00:28:21,835
of us, the things that we need to

745
00:28:21,835 --> 00:28:24,634
get cleared out this week, things that we've

746
00:28:24,634 --> 00:28:26,875
done next week, some of our longer term

747
00:28:26,875 --> 00:28:27,375
strategic

748
00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:29,210
priority activities.

749
00:28:30,150 --> 00:28:31,910
Then there's a set of meetings that I'll

750
00:28:31,910 --> 00:28:33,369
have, some one to ones,

751
00:28:34,069 --> 00:28:36,069
and then I'll be doing some reading, reading

752
00:28:36,069 --> 00:28:37,930
of reports, etcetera. So,

753
00:28:38,549 --> 00:28:41,109
yeah, all good. All good. Alright. Well, lovely

754
00:28:41,109 --> 00:28:42,470
to have you on, and thanks very much

755
00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:44,704
for joining us, Julia Sutcliffe. Thank

756
00:28:45,085 --> 00:28:45,585
you.

757
00:28:51,884 --> 00:28:53,505
That was Julia Sutcliffe,

758
00:28:54,125 --> 00:28:57,724
chief scientific adviser to the UK's department for

759
00:28:57,724 --> 00:28:59,025
business and trade,

760
00:28:59,429 --> 00:29:01,769
in conversation with Mateen Durrani.

761
00:29:02,470 --> 00:29:05,049
The movement of groups of people and animals

762
00:29:05,509 --> 00:29:07,609
has long fascinated physicists.

763
00:29:08,470 --> 00:29:10,710
And in the latest episode of the Physics

764
00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:12,250
World Stories podcast,

765
00:29:12,934 --> 00:29:14,315
host Andrew Glester

766
00:29:14,615 --> 00:29:18,295
shepherds you through the fascinating world of crowd

767
00:29:18,295 --> 00:29:18,795
dynamics.

768
00:29:19,575 --> 00:29:22,554
His guests are the science writer Philip Ball,

769
00:29:22,694 --> 00:29:24,634
who's written about the physics

770
00:29:25,180 --> 00:29:27,759
of flocking sheep for Physics World,

771
00:29:28,059 --> 00:29:29,039
and the physicist

772
00:29:29,580 --> 00:29:30,080
Alessandro

773
00:29:30,619 --> 00:29:31,119
Corbetta,

774
00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:35,340
whose research on pedestrian flow won him an

775
00:29:35,340 --> 00:29:36,640
Ig Nobel Prize.

776
00:29:37,340 --> 00:29:39,840
That episode is called Flocking Together,

777
00:29:40,315 --> 00:29:43,855
the Physics of Sheep Herding and Pedestrian Flows,

778
00:29:43,994 --> 00:29:46,075
and you can find it on the Physics

779
00:29:46,075 --> 00:29:46,894
World website,

780
00:29:47,434 --> 00:29:50,174
or at your favorite podcast provider.

781
00:29:51,195 --> 00:29:52,955
I'm afraid that's all the time we have

782
00:29:52,955 --> 00:29:54,174
for this week's podcast.

783
00:29:54,509 --> 00:29:57,950
Thanks to Julia Sutcliffe and Mateen Durrani for

784
00:29:57,950 --> 00:29:59,490
a fascinating discussion,

785
00:29:59,869 --> 00:30:02,509
and a special thanks to our producer Fred

786
00:30:02,509 --> 00:30:03,009
Iles.

787
00:30:03,470 --> 00:30:05,950
We'll be back again next week. See you

788
00:30:05,950 --> 00:30:06,450
then.