Music, Imagination, and Meditation with Chris Ballew (Caspar Babypants) #215

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<v Speaker>If you're a parent like me, you might at some point have hit a wall with children's music.

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<v Speaker>I deeply regret the day I introduced my daughter to On Top of Spaghetti, and I eventually had to ban Tom Glaser from our home.

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<v Speaker>So a few years ago when my daughter told me her new favorite artist was Casper Baby Pants, I groaned.

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<v Speaker>I told her to keep that music to her own space too.

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<v Speaker>But one day walking by her as she was drawing to her music, I stopped cold at this song.

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<v Speaker>Made of light Made of light.

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<v Speaker>As you grow, just know that everything thing is made of light Made of light all dissolves and falls into a dream.

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<v Speaker>As far as I could tell, this song described one of the most advanced forms of meditation I'd been taught in Tibetan Buddhism.

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<v Speaker>This brought me to a gradual conversion until I too came to love Casper Baby Pants, the stage name of Chris Ballew.

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<v Speaker>After 19 albums as Casper, he recently returned to a solo career.

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<v Speaker>And those songs too, I found had some deeply spiritual themes.

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<v Speaker>When I told my daughter that I'd be interviewing Chris, she made a squeal of delight i'd never heard from her before.

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<v Speaker>This episode is dedicated to her, but I think there's something for just about everyone in this interview with Chris, who in the nineties, head up the hugely successful band presidents of the United States of America.

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<v Speaker>Our interview starts off with why he left that band right at the peak of their success.

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<v Speaker>I'm Scott Snibbe and this is How to Train a Happy Mind.

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<v Speaker>So Chris I'm really excited to have you on the How To Train A Happy Mind Podcast and it's a particularly good day to talk about meditation and music because the Dalai Lama won his first Grammy last night I don't know if you saw that.

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<v Speaker>Yeah I did not know that I didn't watch the Grammys. I usually watch it a day after, a couple days after. That's that is uh heartening yeah. Age 90. Best audio book.

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<v Speaker>Man I love I love I think there might be a trend for uh people who are in their fifties sixties seventies eighties nineties making music that is relevant and helpful.

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<v Speaker>And you've been nominated three times I think, right? So yeah three times back in the nineties we were up again. We we were nominated twice as a band the president's um my rock band in the nineties and we lost to Nirvana and the Beatles. So what are you gonna do?

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<v Speaker>The Beatles is it's certainly your single greatest influence right?

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<v Speaker>Yeah Sergeant Pepper's is like this roadmap or blueprint however you want to kind of frame it. But the way that album invites the listener to travel through all these different landscapes all these different sonic uh atmospheres uh attitudes um darkness lightness you know I mean with and without you uh into when I'm 64 is one of the greatest transitions in the world. It's like this palate cleanser.

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<v Speaker>It's amazing. Um, so yeah as a tiny child I I think I started really listening to it in earnest when I was about four and just yeah I just absorbed that record over and over and over I didn't even know there were other albums by The Beatles. I didn't know there were other albums by anybody.

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<v Speaker>Well, you got lucky because it's arguably the best album ever written and produced, right.

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<v Speaker>I discovered your music through my daughter which probably is something you hear often um, she's a true super fan that's great.

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<v Speaker>I love that, I love yeah, I love that.

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<v Speaker>I always kind of hope that the music like the Casper Baby Pants music would be a anchor for people as they grow up to connect back to innocent beginner's mind childlike approaches to life. So that's nice to hear, I love hearing that.

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<v Speaker>I have witnessed a number of conversations you know as I drive her around with her you know 14, 15-year-old friends now where they're talking about Taylor Swift et cetera. And then they say what's your favorite artist? And she says Casper baby pants. And it's crickets.

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<v Speaker>Crickets Uh, it's good.

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<v Speaker>Which is appropriate, 'cause I wrote a lot of songs about bugs.

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<v Speaker>So crickets is, it's, and that's my favorite one of your songs actually.

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<v Speaker>But we'll get to that later.

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<v Speaker>So I want to talk to you a little bit about moments in your life that you had a inner transformation and start out with your band. You know when you're in Presidents of the United States of America you sold millions of records and yet you walked away from it right? So can you talk a little bit about what didn't feel quite right about rockstar success and how you chose to steer your life afterwards?

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<v Speaker>It's sort of the roots of that experience are in my life life way before the band hit it big when I was writing songs recording them on my little four track cassette machine um and then compiling them on another cassette as a sort of album or a collection and then making a little cover for that and then making about 50 of them and then going into the subway and the downtown streets of Boston and New York and playing on the street playing in the subway and selling my little cassette. And I just thought that circuit is complete. Now I have written a song I've gone through this experience of playing them live. Uh I've sold them on a medium I've made a little money. I go buy groceries, I go home.

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<v Speaker>You know it's like this perfect little circuit, I really was trying to kind of construct a life that didn't require from outside.

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<v Speaker>So when later the presidents received these opportunities to you know sign with a major label and tour all over the world presidents were just another in a long series of little bands that I put together just to keep from being bored you know just we didn't have you know the kind of distractions that we have now. And so we had to create our own distractions. And that was you know challenging ourselves to play a show and get ready and rehearse and then go do the show. And that was kind of like that was another sort of circuit that felt very closed like a closed loop that didn't require validation from outside.

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<v Speaker>So when all this validation of like uh our talent and our focus and our purpose which was to make a room full of people elevate and sing and have a great time and participate when that received national scrutiny it just felt well it felt everything. It was amazing. It was great. It was flattering it was validating, it was delicious but it was also disorienting scary. There was a lot to lose. And you know before we had nothing to lose and now we had a lot to lose. And sort of coming to terms with how that relates to creativity.

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<v Speaker>There's a lot of money floating around.

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<v Speaker>There's a lot of people in shiny suits who we are making a lot of money for. Who were they? What's up with them? Um, do they really like us or do they just see dollar signs? And they were just pretending you know so there was so much to navigate and I kind of enjoyed navigating it because I also felt like well I'd already achieved a level of satisfaction that I could always revert to you know it was like a safety net that was wa or a catcher's MIT waiting to catch me if I decided to jump ship. And I did toy with the idea.

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<v Speaker>And I think if I rem remember correctly I I pitched the band members on the idea that we should just break up. Uh we should just be the like the Sex Pistols and put out the perfect record and break up and freeze ourselves in this perfect state. And then my thought was well I'll just move on I'll just start another little band to keep from being bored on a Tuesday.

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<v Speaker>But it's so enticing and alluring and once in a lifetime opportunities type of sensations overpower the sort of or flight response uh which you I was also managing. So it's like this just this gnarly kind of tension between opportunity and success in a traditional way and a safety net and more kind of sustainable peaceful way to be and then also the big one was my son was born in 1997 uh and I just you know I didn't wanna miss anything I didn't wanna miss the milestones and I wanted to be a regular person that watched the seasons come and go again and did it with my child and so all that combined plus we'd had a couple of scary experiences where shows were getting out of hand. There was a situation in Australia where somebody kind of got crushed. They didn't die but they they were in trouble and they were having an asthma attack and we had to stop the show. And not that that was happening everywhere you know we weren't the Beatles or anything although in in Australia we did have to run for cars you know. And we we also had to have uh fake names at the hotel. And my fake name you'll never guess but my fake name was Paul McCartney.

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<v Speaker>That'll throw 'em off.

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<v Speaker>Yeah, yeah, well and there's an interesting just a tiny side note his fake name when he had to do that back in the day was Paul Ramon and that's where the Ramones got their name.

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<v Speaker>So yeah that's why I chose Paul McCartney.

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<v Speaker>Anyway, yeah and it was a really sudden way that I broke the news that I was quitting to my band mates. We I went to a band meeting in August of 97 and just said well first order of business I quit. It's like and then the to-do list got real short.

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<v Speaker>I think I can speak for Dave the guitar player. He also felt some of what I was feeling I don't think to the point where he would've raised his hand and quit.

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<v Speaker>But I think there was a sense of relief but yeah I just finally after you know a long spell of journaling and even I remember driving in a car and whenever I was driving I would talk out loud to myself like trying to counsel myself. Like you've gotta do it you've gotta move on.

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<v Speaker>You're and my my gut uh the signals coming from my intuition my belly or whatever you wanna call it um were so strong.

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<v Speaker>They were just like you have to move on.

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<v Speaker>So anyway that's kind of the sort of breakdown of the challenging dynamics around all that stuff You know self-awareness and being in touch with the signal and the messaging coming from your core from your body from your intuition whatever you wanna call it. There are found that if you quiet down there are very clear messages being presented and being open enough to receive them is one level and then to act on them is another level that's very important.

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<v Speaker>It's one of the main things that I tried to give to my children as a piece of self-awareness and I would repeat this even I started saying this when they were really little. Just like anytime you're in any situation check in with your body see it see how your body feels and then follow its messaging and its its direction. And you'll find a minuscule microscopic doorway. And that doorway leads to the now and your happiness.

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<v Speaker>That's such great advice.

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<v Speaker>They seem to have taken it to heart cause I think they're finding their way and I still use it all the time. So it's it's kind of been a helpful uh thought technology.

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<v Speaker>Quit while you're ahead is one of the best pieces of advice that almost nobody takes. So congratulations on managing.

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<v Speaker>I I had this quote from you that I just loved. You said "I loved that feeling of being culturally completely irrelevant while simultaneously being loved and successful in connecting with an audience." Tell me more about that.

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<v Speaker>Yeah I think I might've been referring to the Casper thing.

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<v Speaker>Yeah.

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<v Speaker>Yeah.

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<v Speaker>Once you left, yeah.

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<v Speaker>So as the presidents were doing their thing like I said before I wanted to quit the band and um continued to experiment. Well I just did the band and continued to experiment and the messaging I was getting from my system was there's some other way to relate to music that is going to sustain you better than this rock band thing.

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<v Speaker>The rock band thing felt very unsafe you know very shaky The metaphor I used to use was you know success seemed to me to be a backstage room with a velvet rope and they would remove the rope and I'd get to go into the room and the room would have everybody else who was famous in it and it would be so relaxing and beautiful and wonderful But I found sort of on an instinctive level that when I got into that room and they moved the rope, immediately I saw a door at the other end of that room with another rope. And I knew that it led to another room with another door with another rope and another room with another door and another rope and it would never end that I would just continually have to be proving myself.

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<v Speaker>So yeah when I just when I after years of tinkering on the side trying to find this thing that my intuition was telling me to search for the music got quieter and quieter and then I met Kate.

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<v Speaker>And I saw her artwork and I thought oh I wanna make music that comes from her artwork's planet You know all the adjectives I use to describe her art I want people to use to describe this music that I wanna make. You know innocent and bright and cheerful and full of animals and paper and you know handmade.

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<v Speaker>So I started making music I wrote a few songs to directly accompany some of her artwork. And a cartoon light bulb went off over my head I just went oh I know what it is. It's kids music. And the next thought I had was I'm free of cool. I do not have to prove myself as relevant in the sense that I'm cool anymore.

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<v Speaker>And so that was kind of what that that previous quote you said was all about is just the freedom of being absolutely immune to the pressure of culture you know being relevant or culturally cool or whatever or having even hits you know like having singles I didn't do singles I just made these albums. Um and meanwhile I was playing shows and hearing feedback from parents that were using the music in the car and at home.

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<v Speaker>And it was it was like working exactly how I dreamed it would work reducing stress uh bringing the family together into the same room to sing the same songs. So yeah it was wonderful to be irrelevant and relevant at the same time.

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<v Speaker>You're probably aware you know in Buddhism there's this principle of selflessness you know that we really become happy and fulfilled and effective when we let go of that tight ego which makes us feel separate. Right, when you let go of that um I don't know if you like consciously have those feelings but it it it bears on what you're saying I think.

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<v Speaker>Oh absolutely, I mean I do a a therapy called Hakomi Therapy. It's also called Parts Work. Um and it's about identifying your individual little ego parts and then having empathetic negotiations with each part. And man they are so funny. They are so, Ramdass called them Schmoos, which I love.

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<v Speaker>Yeah.

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<v Speaker>And I see them you know like the first Hakomi session I had I could totally see them. And uh yeah the ongoing negotiation that is never gonna end with those little parts it's where I draw inspiration from to do the music I'm doing now, my solo stuff for sure. But it was woven into the Casper thing because I did realize that the sensation of being in service uh, I guess you know the presidents were in service to people. We were in service to helping a rock club full of people elevate and helping lighten you know the tone of the uh musical landscape with silliness. Um but I really felt like there was a deeper service kind of with the Casper thing where I was like relieving tension for tired parents felt elementally important.

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<v Speaker>You know like that kind of the reaction that kids have parents a super young age.

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<v Speaker>And I found this out about myself and my parents. There was friction in the how home I grew up in nothing you know uh dangerous or anything but to my little nervous system. It challenged my safety completely and I didn't understand it or have any way to deal with it at the time cause I was tiny. But later I did deal with it and realized wow you know even like seemingly manageable kind of caused by from parents gets absorbed by children in a very very deep cellular way. So I mean the Casper thing had that aspect to it of maybe hoping to derail or assist uh when things got bad and stressful for families.

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<v Speaker>What I used to do is I would I would work on a Casper song and I would throw a bunch of ideas on it and then I would play it and I'd imagine a family in this car in August in 95 degree heat and they're all hungry and tired and mad and they all have to pee. And then I would think well is this song gonna help? And, inevitably I would remove the banjo and the mandolin and the tambourine. So um yeah, I was really really laser focused on being in service and an assist for parents.

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<v Speaker>I heard you give this advice to parents first show your kids who you really are but you need to figure out who you are I think maybe it would be uh help your kids understand who they are and what they prefer what they want and don't want. But in order to do that by example you have to first discover who you are and what your preferences are and what you do and don't want. And mostly by example of making your choices they'll learn to also get in touch with their own inner directive and let that help them choose for all the forks in the road that will be presented although that's a much longer version.

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<v Speaker>In a way that's all our jobs on earth right is to um figure out who we are and you managed to do it but what's your advice to people to how to do that?

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<v Speaker>There's there's even more forces now uh against getting to know yourself that's true. Um one thought technology works for me is that the current darkness in the world is also amplifying the light. That there are so many conversations that have been accelerated by the vitriolic darkness that's been something we have to deal with that I find it I mean, I feel like over the course of human history this light and dark they just dance you know. And they like they pulse and they shrink and they expand and they dance uh with each other. They will never stop dancing. We'll never protest our way to complete peace it's not attainable. And so I guess advice for me would be um focus on what makes you happy.

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<v Speaker>Focus on your bubble, who who can you influence who's inside your sphere of influence and who's outside of it. Allow what's outside of it to fall away. Focus on what's inside of it. And if everybody did that those bubbles would all touch each other and hook up and make a big old bubble net.

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<v Speaker>Yeah it's all made of individual relationships. Um, you use uh humor to an extraordinary extent I had a great quote from you, Silliness is a byproduct of peace and happiness and enlightenment.

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<v Speaker>Of course, I love that as you know someone who's interested in Buddhism and the ideal of enlightenment. Um tell me more about that with the benefits of silliness and how that's infused your life and work.

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<v Speaker>I mean it's just beginner's mind. You know uh one of the reasons I focused on zero to five year olds with Casper baby Pants is those especially the zero to two they're like little Buddhas man. They are Enlightened, they're already there.  We learn how to name things and eventually you end up if somebody says draw a tree you draw what you think a tree looks like not what the tree actually looks like and that's a loss. You know that's a and I guess that beginner's mind to me means I look at a chair and I don't just see a chair I see a shape I see the abstraction of what a chair is and then I can pretend it has a personality and it has emotions.

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<v Speaker>And like I'll write a song about a chair that you know don't sit on me or something.

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<v Speaker>You tell a great story about when you were interviewing different labels to sign with that Madonna's label Maverick.

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<v Speaker>Um you got to talk to her. You didn't end up signing with her but you got to talk to her and she said she warned you that you're never going to achieve the level of success you deserve because you're funny what what's the problem people have with being funny if it's so powerful and beneficial.

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<v Speaker>Well I think specifically she was like you'll never receive critical acclaim for your craft for your craft. Yeah so so the success level was always I think she was she was trying to help us achieve greater success by telling us actually by telling us that if we are fun and funny which she was too you know dance that eighties dance music before she got real serious, it was all just bubblegum fun that you know that's not respected. The craft of making something that's fun isn't like look at weird Al Yankovic I mean he is insanely talented.

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<v Speaker>And you could argue actually that he's bucking the philosophy because he is universally loved. So he's, he's our leader. He's our fearless leader into the world of silliness.

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<v Speaker>There's a spiritual dimension that I started to notice in your work when my daughter played the song Made of Light for me I think that's the one that really all of a sudden I was shocked.

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<v Speaker>We'll play a little clip for folks.

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<v Speaker>Made of light.

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<v Speaker>Made of light.

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<v Speaker>As you grow, just know that everything thing is made of light Made of light.

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<v Speaker>All dissolves and falls into a dream Made of light.

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<v Speaker>Made of light.

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<v Speaker>I love you.

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<v Speaker>So there's no space in between.

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<v Speaker>I saw a lot of connection between my own experience and education in certain types of meditation mostly from Tibetan Buddhist meditation and this song. And it that's what really drew me to go much deeper into your work. Can you share a little bit what motivated that song?

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<v Speaker>Yeah, as I did the Casper thing you know the way I make records is I just work on a big batch of songs all the time It's this huge well of songs and I'm always listening and making notes and moving things and tweaking as I go. And then when it comes time to make a record I just skim the cream the top of that barrel and release a record of all the best stuff that's the most finished. And then I just continued to tinker with the stuff as I did that the barrel of songs or whatever you want to call it um, started to really fill up with a lot of mellow songs in general I would take each album and I'd go from high energy to low like the albums are designed to you put 'em on and you and they grab the kid's attention. And then pretty soon I'm telling stories and then pretty soon things are slowing down and then pretty soon you've got a lullaby and then you're asleep.

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<v Speaker>It was sort of like sonic narcolepsy, I'm trying to induce in the children.

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<v Speaker>But I I realized I had so many more lullabies than I could you know use one or two on the end of the album. So I made two lullaby records and part of that batch of songs of lullabies were these really esoteric songs that were kind of more broad and made of light, of those.

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<v Speaker>Do, do you have formal meditation training like this did this come out of a type of meditation training or a spontaneous experience?

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<v Speaker>The roots of that way of being go back to college I would have these weekends, literally like the entire weekend I would put on a Brian Eno album called uh either Music for Airports or Apollo and Atmosphere is the soundtrack. And I would just listen to that album with the exception of leaving my room to get something to eat for 48 hours.

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<v Speaker>And I didn't know what I was doing I just knew I need this I need to be alone with this music and be quiet and say nothing for two days.

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<v Speaker>I was doing a meditation retreat but I had no idea what it was. It wasn't until later when I started just deep breathing you know a lot of my relationship with meditation and Qigong which I did for quite a while and now yoga and more kind of stretching kind of stuff I'm doing currently is just instinctive. I just like back in college I was given the message you need to shut up and be quiet for two days. And then uh I just keep following the messaging and then it would say you need to deep breathe and you need to move and and my wife and I discovered Qigong I don't know like 15 years ago and started doing it together just to a real simple like four set kind of thing on YouTube boy, the it was immediate like this is better than drugs. This is better than alcohol this is better than anything better than music. And so just over the years just kind of following my intuition and doing it and then being curious and listening to Alan Watts and Ram Dass while I do it that really accelerated like ideas you know, Ram Dass is at his best I feel like he's a sort of existential standup comic. You know he's he's got the silliness thing dialed in and he's got great little slogans and very quick little sayings that kind of encapsulate ideas that I loved which inspired me to come up with my own. And so yeah it's it's all just been this sort of hodgepodge.

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<v Speaker>I took one Qigong lesson in Mexico have a physical therapist who helps me kind of do uh stuff but it's really just intuitive I just follow the signals.

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<v Speaker>You know music's the only medium that can instantly change your emotions, right. Um you don't like always walk up to a painting you know get just get excited. A lot of my friends are monks and nuns actually and they have a vow in Tibetan Buddhism and at least they have a vow against singing and dancing making music attending concerts Every one of them breaks that vow.

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<v Speaker>So can you can you talk about how you use music to change your own emotions and others With the music I'm making now I imagined somebody having way more of an internal experience like headphones on lying back not necessarily you know there's I call this new music I'm making pop cosmic cause it's pop song craft but then there's this there's always like a meditative repetitive like the chord progression will never change throughout the song but then what's on top will change and have dynamics. So um I think about a person who's uh having an internal journey kinda like I did with Sgt Pepper and in making the music. For me it's thrilling, I hope people don't take this the wrong way but I feel like a God I feel like a creator like out of nothing I'm making something that has no weight has no dimension. When I'm working on songs time evaporates. So I guess I'm trying to help people experience evaporating time while I experience it while I make the music.

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<v Speaker>The level of craft in some of your songs is really extraordinary. I'm really blown away by the the writing the production.

00:29:19.742 --> 00:29:42.409
<v Speaker>I wanted to ask you how long it takes to make a great song and how hard is it? Cause you know you do get lost in this flow state but yeah it's actually a lot of work isn't it to to finish one of these songs, it can be yeah I mean the beautiful thing is every one of em is different, different you know, some, there's a song on the second Casper album called 9.99 about a little stuffed bear.

00:29:42.409 --> 00:30:02.598
<v Speaker>And that song I was in the studio I was thirsty I went in the house I opened the fridge to get something to drink and that song downloaded into my head completely finished. Like it took less time to think about it than it did to play it. I closed the fridge without getting anything to drink went out and recorded the version that's on the record in like 10 minutes.

00:30:02.598 --> 00:30:27.307
<v Speaker>So sometimes it's like that and then sometimes it's a real struggle. Like I'll work on a song and it'll be fundamentally flawed but there's one little bit I always find that with failures there's still a tiny shred of DNA in there that is pure that is trying to be something great.

00:30:27.307 --> 00:30:48.637
<v Speaker>And the challenge is to let my ego drop and listen to my own music and really be fearless about like all right 99% of this song is a failure even though it took me days and days and I worked on that guitar sound forever you know. But given time I forget about that. And I just I'm honest about what's working and what's not working I also have four co-producers that give uh the songs a listen at a certain stage and give me notes.

00:30:48.637 --> 00:31:00.605
<v Speaker>I wanted to talk to you about my daughter's favorite song, I don't know if you if you remember that called what do you find what do you find yeah what do you do you find in a jellyfish mind. Yes Yes I love that song.

00:31:00.605 --> 00:31:05.942
<v Speaker>So I'm gonna I'm gonna play  a clip of her and her reaction to that song.

00:31:05.942 --> 00:31:12.288
<v Speaker>My favorite Casper Baby Pants song is, What Do You Find?

00:31:12.288 --> 00:31:22.554
<v Speaker>I like it because it's just such a happy, joyful song and it, it puts all these really funny images in my mind.

00:31:22.554 --> 00:31:28.530
<v Speaker>I would never think of an anenome thinking of ping pong and clocks.

00:31:28.530 --> 00:31:36.663
<v Speaker>What do you find in an anenome's mind?

00:31:36.663 --> 00:31:44.804
<v Speaker>Thoughts of airplanes, thoughts of socks, thoughts of ping pong, thoughts of clocks?

00:31:44.804 --> 00:31:53.588
<v Speaker>I don't think so, but then I, I don't know.

00:31:53.588 --> 00:32:31.719
<v Speaker>I don't know, but I do know that I do think of them staring through the glass at the people staring at them in the local aquarium you said you like to make songs that work for like three year olds and 33 year olds. And you know we were listening to the song I was like okay that's what you like about it. I said you know what I like about this song is that it reminds me of the the hard problem of consciousness.

00:32:31.719 --> 00:32:55.358
<v Speaker>You know there's this famous there's this famous paper called uh what Is It Like To Be A Bat by David Chalmers where he says like this is the thing we can never understand about consciousness of what it's like to be a bat. And this song in the most beautiful playful way is asking these questions like do creatures have consciousness. What's it like to be them. Um I don't know if those ideas were in your head like consciously or unconsciously writing.

00:32:55.358 --> 00:33:21.675
<v Speaker>Oh yeah, absolutely because I'm an anthropomorphize. So you know like I would even say what do you find in a chair's mind? Or what do you find in a uh lamps mind? Um but yeah absolutely it was uh just a genuine silly silly ish curiosity I guess the first thing is to wonder like well what's going on in a jellyfish mind? Uh and do they wonder about us?

00:33:21.675 --> 00:33:45.749
<v Speaker>One other thing I wanted to just say about you know my daughter which is really, you know, how I learned about your work is that she started saying Walt Whitman has a non-sequitur constantly through the house. And also um the hustle and the bustle of the concrete jungle. You know and I was like where are you getting these things? And um it turned out you know it was this song um bubble rap a great nice rap rap song you wrote.

00:33:45.749 --> 00:33:48.628
<v Speaker>Um, I'll play a clip of her talking about that.

00:33:48.628 --> 00:33:51.960
<v Speaker>What did you like about that particular part of bubble wrap?

00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:54.898
<v Speaker>Oh, um, I like it.

00:33:54.898 --> 00:34:01.544
<v Speaker>It's kind of unexpected to have something yell walt Whitman.

00:34:01.544 --> 00:34:04.751
<v Speaker>Did you know who Walt Whitman was when you heard that song?

00:34:04.751 --> 00:34:08.681
<v Speaker>No, I actually, oh, I actually looked up Walt Whitman after that.

00:34:08.681 --> 00:34:09.447
<v Speaker>Oh, what did you learn?

00:34:09.447 --> 00:34:09.938
<v Speaker>A poet.

00:34:09.938 --> 00:34:10.108
<v Speaker>What?

00:34:10.108 --> 00:34:12.206
<v Speaker>He liked to say blades of grass.

00:34:12.206 --> 00:34:15.134
<v Speaker>The green, green grass was so serene.

00:34:15.134 --> 00:34:19.693
<v Speaker>I was happy and relaxed, but I floated too close to the leaves of grass.

00:34:19.693 --> 00:34:21.313
<v Speaker>When the wind, it blew me back.

00:34:21.313 --> 00:34:25.543
<v Speaker>Walt Whitman up, up, up so high in the sky, so high that I could see.

00:34:25.543 --> 00:34:30.253
<v Speaker>I was the only bubble that was free from trouble Free, free.

00:34:30.253 --> 00:34:33.074
<v Speaker>Free.

00:34:33.074 --> 00:34:34.248
<v Speaker>Free.

00:34:34.248 --> 00:34:35.329
<v Speaker>So free.

00:34:35.329 --> 00:34:36.449
<v Speaker>So free.

00:34:36.449 --> 00:34:37.489
<v Speaker>So free.

00:34:37.489 --> 00:34:38.568
<v Speaker>So free.

00:34:38.568 --> 00:34:39.688
<v Speaker>So free.

00:34:39.688 --> 00:34:40.768
<v Speaker>So free.

00:34:40.768 --> 00:34:41.849
<v Speaker>So free.

00:34:41.849 --> 00:34:42.969
<v Speaker>So free.

00:34:42.969 --> 00:34:44.048
<v Speaker>So free.

00:34:44.048 --> 00:34:45.128
<v Speaker>So free.

00:34:45.128 --> 00:34:46.248
<v Speaker>So free.

00:34:46.248 --> 00:34:47.728
<v Speaker>Sing it.

00:34:47.728 --> 00:34:51.704
<v Speaker>This is a bubble wrap from a bubble to you and me.

00:34:51.704 --> 00:34:56.094
<v Speaker>Come on, listen to this bubble wrap and set your bubbles free.

00:34:56.094 --> 00:34:57.114
<v Speaker>I set your bubbles free.

00:34:57.114 --> 00:35:00.474
<v Speaker>This is a bubble wrap from a bubble to you and me.

00:35:00.474 --> 00:35:04.981
<v Speaker>Listen to this bubble wrap and set your bubbles free.

00:35:04.981 --> 00:35:08.293
<v Speaker>I'll tell you where that came from.

00:35:08.293 --> 00:35:10.483
<v Speaker>So there was a band back in the nineties called the John Spencer Blues.

00:35:10.483 --> 00:35:12.554
<v Speaker>Oh yeah, that's an amazing album.

00:35:12.554 --> 00:35:13.034
<v Speaker>Oh my God.

00:35:13.034 --> 00:35:13.574
<v Speaker>That orange.

00:35:13.574 --> 00:35:13.963
<v Speaker>Yeah.

00:35:13.963 --> 00:35:28.519
<v Speaker>And I don't know if it was on Extra Width or Orange and I can't remember which song but John Spencer yells at one point Walt Whitman I just thought that was so funny. And so here I am like using the Sugar Hill gang as a template to do a rap called Bubble Rap.

00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:40.304
<v Speaker>A lot of your songs make me go update my daughter's music education because I said oh you know there's this band the Sugar Hill Band. This was like one of the very first rap songs and we went and watched it. Y eah, there you go. That's great.

00:35:40.304 --> 00:35:49.748
<v Speaker>I love that that, that's actually an interesting aspect of the Casper thing too which is that and we did this in the presidents is um sampling different genres.

00:35:49.748 --> 00:36:05.208
<v Speaker>You know like in the Presidents we had our rock songs we had our funky songs we had our country songs um had kind of like ballady songs, and then yeah the Casper thing has been was fantastic because I got to sort of emotionally sample music.

00:36:05.208 --> 00:36:21.987
<v Speaker>So I've heard you talk about your current phase as a solo artist that um that it came from being alone like just playing no recording um just enjoying what you do. Um, and many of my friends you know who I don't know if you have any friends who've gone on very long meditation retreats I mean I have ones who've gone on three year retreats.

00:36:21.987 --> 00:36:51.351
<v Speaker>We did three years. Yeah so they said maybe your friend te said this too that I said what was the result of that. And they said well there was a big shakeout period that was rough. But at the end I learned to become my own best friend and then a lot of em say like that's actually a pretty good uh definition of meditation too of learning to become your own best friend. So can you talk a little bit about rolling into your solo career and connecting with yourself um in the last couple years?

00:36:51.351 --> 00:37:22.547
<v Speaker>Wow okay so during the pandemic I had to cancel all my shows all my Casper Baby Pants shows and the immediate feeling I felt when I realized that was relief and I realized that I had been sort of deep down uh needing a break. I did 1,247 Casper shows in 10 years and toward the end there I was packing em in just on and on and on, just one after the other.

00:37:22.547 --> 00:37:54.449
<v Speaker>And I needed a break and the pandemic came along and offered me this amazing break. And so I decided to really take advantage of the shutdown and shut myself down uh, to reset and sure enough out of that stillness I started to well what actually what happened was there was a song on one of the last Casper albums which I put out during the pandemic uh, called um what was it called Uh spook A Scary Motorcycle or something like Supersonic motorcycle supersonic, oh samaya loves that one.

00:37:56.940 --> 00:37:58.170
<v Speaker>That's that's maybe her second favorite. It is really good.

00:37:58.170 --> 00:38:16.637
<v Speaker>Thank you. That's a true story story. My neighbor in West Seattle when we lived in Seattle we live on an island now but uh he had a real like fancy motorcycle and he would uh turn it on before riding it and rev it you know like get it warmed up and everything.

00:38:16.637 --> 00:38:31.907
<v Speaker>And it was just like like our whole house was shaking and I I don't like this. So I wrote that about that. But in order to record the song I went out and bought a distortion pedal, which I had not used distortion in 12 years cause I wasn't that was not what part of the Casper palette.

00:38:31.907 --> 00:38:54.376
<v Speaker>So I bought this real fuzzy distortion pedal and I suddenly was like oh distortion I remember distortion. Wow and all of a sudden this whole world of music that I had made before which is real kind of heavy repetitive kind of distorted groovy kind of vibe came back uh flooding back into my creative uh factory.

00:38:54.376 --> 00:39:32.891
<v Speaker>And then lyrically thematically is where being alone and being quiet and doing Qigong every day and sort of listening to Ram Dass lecture during that whole shutdown time sort of nurtured these perspectives about existence and consciousness and death and birth and matter and light and you know the why of and all that kind of stuff. And so those started to become little slogans and little ideas that would bubble up and become song titles, perspectives for songs.

00:39:32.891 --> 00:39:36.842
<v Speaker>I actually wanted to ask you about just about like a couple specific songs.

00:39:36.842 --> 00:39:43.324
<v Speaker>So in Truth or Dare you know talk, hey there's a Madonna reference. Huh mine is truth and dare, truth and dare.

00:39:43.324 --> 00:39:43.985
<v Speaker>Much better, Much better.

00:39:44.554 --> 00:39:59.655
<v Speaker>Um, in Truth and Dare you know last year one of last year's albums um there's a song called Feedback Loop that um I was enjoying and I'll play a little bit, Living things will fall apart and feed the thirsty soil.

00:39:59.655 --> 00:40:03.385
<v Speaker>A circuit that is loving and complete.

00:40:03.385 --> 00:40:09.545
<v Speaker>Predators and prey, are like a pot that never boils.

00:40:09.545 --> 00:40:14.335
<v Speaker>Consciousness keeps them anything but free.

00:40:14.335 --> 00:40:19.465
<v Speaker>Finding equilibrium is possible but foolish.

00:40:19.465 --> 00:40:29.994
<v Speaker>Freezing in the rising summer heat, polyrythmic waves do not care what the rule is.

00:40:29.994 --> 00:40:33.190
<v Speaker>Time after time they end up whispering to me.

00:40:33.190 --> 00:40:37.380
<v Speaker>Can you feel that endless feedback loop.

00:40:37.380 --> 00:41:16.177
<v Speaker>Beautiful song and it's it relates to a different I wanted to talk about a couple songs that related to slightly different themes than that kinda light expansiveness. This seems more about impermanence and those cycles of life.

00:41:16.177 --> 00:41:26.318
<v Speaker>And you mentioned love too right? You talk about a circuit that is loving and complete. Um can you talk about what love means to you in a song like this?

00:41:26.318 --> 00:41:34.539
<v Speaker>I think what I was sort of tapping into the idea of interdependence like in ecosystems you take the wolves out of the park so they don't kill the rabbits.

00:41:34.539 --> 00:42:25.047
<v Speaker>And then okay here we go. It's like a a rollercoaster ride of imbalance has been set off it's sort of uh uh asking the listener to remember that uh although things appear to be destructive or violent in nature maybe you can look at the loving relationship between a and an ant you know that the Cordyceps infects the ant and makes it go high and spores in the poor ants you know experiences over of being ant. But there's a um marriage a cohesion uh of a melding together of these two entities that creates a a new reaction and then that sort of reverberates out and prevents a volcano from erupting somewhere.

00:42:25.047 --> 00:42:30.856
<v Speaker>Um so yeah it's like trusting interdependence. Even if it looks ugly it's still an act of love.

00:42:30.856 --> 00:42:38.827
<v Speaker>I wanted to talk about one other song off your off your latest album um Starting to Get Light, Problem Solution.

00:42:38.827 --> 00:42:38.827
<v Speaker>This was a song I really enjoyed.

00:42:38.827 --> 00:42:49.007
<v Speaker>Every time the fear looks different, but it's really just the same.

00:42:49.007 --> 00:42:52.657
<v Speaker>We are twisted by a difference going by a different name.

00:42:52.657 --> 00:42:56.777
<v Speaker>Every missing opportunity can be covered up with rage.

00:42:56.777 --> 00:43:00.347
<v Speaker>Every endless bond of unity hidden on the empty page.

00:43:00.347 --> 00:43:06.856
<v Speaker>Problem, solution, problem solution.

00:43:06.856 --> 00:43:19.713
<v Speaker>This song seems to touch on these emotional ups and downs we feel you know as problems inevitably occur in life like fear loss anger um how they're inevitable and maybe how we can grow through them.

00:43:19.713 --> 00:43:42.612
<v Speaker>Yeah I love that song because that song's really a sonic totem or a sonic uh talisman that I you know or a sonic worry rock that I use. It's sort of just the idea that existence can be boiled down to problem solution. Like I breathe in and I have a problem. What do I do?

00:43:42.612 --> 00:43:46.483
<v Speaker>Oh I breathe out, solution. You know on an elemental level we're problem solutioning whether we know it or not.

00:43:46.483 --> 00:43:49.963
<v Speaker>Like our body is problem solutioning all the time.

00:43:49.963 --> 00:43:55.813
<v Speaker>Um, but it also helps me calm down when there's too much going on.

00:43:55.813 --> 00:44:03.583
<v Speaker>You know, just like there's a leak in the roof and, uh, there's, uh, you know, rot in the wood in the building or whatever.

00:44:03.583 --> 00:44:07.873
<v Speaker>You know, this just the practical, I've gotta pay my taxes, I've gotta do this, do that.

00:44:07.873 --> 00:44:10.992
<v Speaker>Like, okay, problem solution, problem solution.

00:44:10.992 --> 00:44:40.666
<v Speaker>So this is your mantra you know for people that don't know, you know, a mantra is a phrase you repeat that evokes a certain quality in yourself I I do a lot of them cause I'm a Tibetan Buddhist like oh mani pa mi om you know is the mantra of compassion. But you made up your own problem solution. That's your yeah, yeah, yeah many years ago when I moved to Boston I I lived with a Zen Buddhist and he was a Nam Yoho Rege Kio sayer. And I did that I did that for a while. It didn't you know it didn't resonate with me I've I'm too creative I like to make up my own.

00:44:40.666 --> 00:45:02.938
<v Speaker>But I do make up nonsense um sort of uh words that I will say during meditation sometimes. But yeah problem solution I use on a daily basis um to calm myself and allow things that seem chaotic to become organized. And it's like Tetris you know, you take chaos organize it get rid of it.

00:45:02.938 --> 00:45:10.226
<v Speaker>So I wanted to roll outta this episode with my favorite Casper Baby Pants song if that's okay.

00:45:10.226 --> 00:45:36.556
<v Speaker>Uh, Woods Behind My Home. And I wanna I wanna ask you a little bit about it cause it's just um about imagination and joy and the production's insane I think that was a song really when I started listening to it. And my daughter's like oh my God this song is so incredible. You know the way you just, the the the effects and the music and and the processing that bring to life. Each little episode in that song. And it kind of reminded me of you know the Peter and the Wolf album.

00:45:36.556 --> 00:45:54.746
<v Speaker>Like, I think a lot of us listen to that as a kid like Basil Rathbone that shows you how music can paint images I love that you picked that song. That song is exact totally about a memory from being a child. So the house I grew up in had woods behind it for most of my childhood and then they were developed and turned into houses.

00:45:54.746 --> 00:46:38.686
<v Speaker>But that little strip of woods I mean it wasn't big at all. It was maybe like half an acre um or maybe an acre but it seemed endless and we found a weird old little like shed in there and we found some old linoleum and it just seemed like something used to be there but it was all disintegrated. So that song is absolutely about the sensation of me being a little kid and fantasizing about what else is going on in the woods behind my home. And the Peter and the wolf thing is dead on cause I thought I'll take each verse and make it musically support the uh, characters in the theme of each verse. So that song took a long time to make and then at the end I kind of bring all the instruments back in.

00:46:38.686 --> 00:46:50.416
<v Speaker>So yeah and that was very much I grew up listening to that Peter and the Wolf album. And uh loved it and loved the way instruments were used to sort of spark your imagination and make something come to life.

00:46:50.416 --> 00:46:53.436
<v Speaker>So, yeah thank you for acknowledging that.

00:46:53.436 --> 00:47:06.005
<v Speaker>Thank you so much Chris Ballew for taking your time to talk about music meditation and and be really vulnerable, you know talk about a lot of sensitive personal things that I think will inspire people to get to know who they really are.

00:47:06.005 --> 00:47:34.972
<v Speaker>Oh, I so appreciate that I really appreciate it. I like I platform to kind of link intention and spirituality to creativity cause I think a lot of people are focused on success but there's a way to relate to your creativity that is about attaining the highest form of satisfaction right now without any uh external. So that's where you need to go.

00:47:34.972 --> 00:47:39.150
<v Speaker>Thanks a lot Chris. So here we go, Woods Behind My Home.

00:47:39.150 --> 00:47:54.706
<v Speaker>Sit back, relax, and let me tell you about some piles of mine, silly group of junkyard buddies I love who live nearby.

00:47:54.706 --> 00:47:57.802
<v Speaker>You may not see them like I do.

00:47:57.802 --> 00:47:59.961
<v Speaker>I might seem all alone.

00:47:59.961 --> 00:48:03.717
<v Speaker>They are out there in the woods.

00:48:03.717 --> 00:48:05.967
<v Speaker>In the woods behind my home.

00:48:05.967 --> 00:48:10.467
<v Speaker>Well, the jug used to hold some apple juice.

00:48:10.467 --> 00:48:12.146
<v Speaker>The life of the party for sure.

00:48:12.146 --> 00:48:15.567
<v Speaker>He got a crack fell outta you.

00:48:15.567 --> 00:48:16.556
<v Speaker>Snow glue.

00:48:16.556 --> 00:48:17.907
<v Speaker>So there's no cue.

00:48:17.907 --> 00:48:22.646
<v Speaker>He got tossed out with an old brown shoe and a dirty garden.

00:48:22.646 --> 00:48:26.981
<v Speaker>No, they're all just finest friends of mine in the woods.

00:48:26.981 --> 00:48:40.762
<v Speaker>Behind my home, there's a car in the weeds that used to be a fast and happy, kind, shiny and new so long ago in summer of 49.

00:48:40.762 --> 00:48:46.222
<v Speaker>Now the floor board's cracked and bent and rust is on the chrome.

00:48:46.222 --> 00:48:51.742
<v Speaker>A sit-in inside and pretend to drive in the woods behind my home.

00:48:51.742 --> 00:48:57.831
<v Speaker>Fuzzy little puppet I found one day all purple with a button.

00:48:57.831 --> 00:49:03.802
<v Speaker>Nose dropped in the mud, so carelessly and left in a funny post.

00:49:03.802 --> 00:49:08.242
<v Speaker>He had no label, but I was able to name him.

00:49:08.242 --> 00:49:11.452
<v Speaker>Little Jerome told me thanks.

00:49:11.452 --> 00:49:13.371
<v Speaker>Joined the ranks in the words.

00:49:13.371 --> 00:49:14.731
<v Speaker>Behind my home.

00:49:14.731 --> 00:49:28.981
<v Speaker>Well, if I walk when the moon is big and squint my squinty eye, I think I see a wispy form floating slowly by a friendly ghost.

00:49:28.981 --> 00:49:32.431
<v Speaker>Is friendly for sure, but chills me to the bone.

00:49:32.431 --> 00:49:37.746
<v Speaker>I let him stroll 'cause he won't hurt a soul in the woods behind my home.

00:49:37.746 --> 00:49:41.916
<v Speaker>See that shack full of bricka?

00:49:41.916 --> 00:49:44.197
<v Speaker>Brack leaning to the side.

00:49:44.197 --> 00:49:47.827
<v Speaker>If you give it a kick, be a pile of sticks.

00:49:47.827 --> 00:49:49.927
<v Speaker>But that would make me cry.

00:49:49.927 --> 00:49:52.927
<v Speaker>'cause in that shack when Anita nap.

00:49:52.927 --> 00:49:55.317
<v Speaker>By rest my tired bones.

00:49:55.317 --> 00:49:58.737
<v Speaker>Quiet as a mouse in my country house.

00:49:58.737 --> 00:50:00.297
<v Speaker>In the woods behind my home.

00:50:00.297 --> 00:50:07.226
<v Speaker>There's a million crickets playing violins sounding like a symphony.

00:50:07.226 --> 00:50:10.706
<v Speaker>They'll do their best Stiff fire requests.

00:50:10.706 --> 00:50:18.257
<v Speaker>A certain Meow D concert hall is extremely small, but what a happy tone.

00:50:18.257 --> 00:50:23.777
<v Speaker>We hatch a plan form a band in the woods behind my home.

00:50:23.777 --> 00:50:35.746
<v Speaker>Now, as I close my eyes to sleep, I see them all in my mind, in the trees and in the brush, and in the blue black sky.

00:50:35.746 --> 00:50:51.927
<v Speaker>Underneath the stars that shine in a sparkly dome, I blow out the light and say goodnight to the woods in the in the woods home.

00:50:51.927 --> 00:51:02.391
<v Speaker>Thanks for joining me for this conversation with Chris Ballew, AKA Casper Baby Pants.

00:51:02.391 --> 00:51:21.170
<v Speaker>You can find links to his albums on the webpage for this episode at HowtoTrain aHappy mind.org, where you can also discover guided analytical meditations, hundreds of past episodes of this podcast, and information about the Train A Happy Mind community that meets every Sunday morning to talk and meditate together.

00:51:21.170 --> 00:51:26.675
<v Speaker>How to Train A Happy Mind is a nonprofit project of A Skeptic's Path to Enlightenment.

00:51:26.675 --> 00:51:29.706
<v Speaker>The podcast is offered freely and without ads.

00:51:29.706 --> 00:51:31.596
<v Speaker>Thanks to the support of listeners.

00:51:31.596 --> 00:51:35.615
<v Speaker>Thanks to Isabela Acebal for marketing and production on this episode.

00:51:35.615 --> 00:51:38.346
<v Speaker>We wish you a wonderful day.