112 - Fire Safety for Energy Storage Systems with Ali Ashrafi and Paweł Woelke

WEBVTT

00:00:00.119 --> 00:00:02.363
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hello everybody, welcome to the Fire Science Show.

00:00:02.363 --> 00:00:08.153
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Today we're again touching the subject of fire safety, of energy storage and battery devices.

00:00:08.153 --> 00:00:17.932
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>These times threw the eyes of fire safety engineers and we're going to talk how to implement real life solutions for this type of storage.

00:00:17.932 --> 00:00:20.949
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I have invited two gentlemen from Fallon Tomassetti.

00:00:20.949 --> 00:00:26.525
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>First is , who was the previous guest on the show almost 100 episodes ago.

00:00:26.525 --> 00:00:37.517
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You may remember him from episode the Bald Resilient Design for Firefighters Safety, where we've discussed how the battleground changes and we're kind of coming back to the subject again today.

00:00:37.517 --> 00:00:41.570
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>The second guest is Pawe Volker, also from the same company.

00:00:41.570 --> 00:01:01.137
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Both of them are involved in designing fire safety for different types of energy storage devices for buildings that have to include, for example, energy, new energy carriers, electric vehicles and stuff like that, which seems to be kind of mainstream for fire safety engineers today.

00:01:01.137 --> 00:01:13.236
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So I guess this will be interesting for you to hear what fellow engineers have to say about how they deal with the projects everyone of us is already facing or will be facing in a near future.

00:01:13.236 --> 00:01:18.391
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I hope you will enjoy this one, so let's spin the intro and jump into the episode.

00:01:23.027 --> 00:01:24.670
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Welcome to the .

00:01:24.670 --> 00:01:28.114
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>My name  and I will be your host.

00:01:28.114 --> 00:01:46.359
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And, as usual, please give me a second to appreciate the role of the sponsor of this show, ofr Consultants.

00:01:46.359 --> 00:01:52.786
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Ofr Consultants are a multi-world winning, independent consultancy dedicated to addressing fire safety challenges.

00:01:52.786 --> 00:01:56.048
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Ofr is the UK's leading fire risk consultancy.

00:01:56.048 --> 00:02:06.236
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Its globally established team has developed reputation for preeminent fire engineering expertise, with colleagues working across the world to help protect people, property and environment.

00:02:06.236 --> 00:02:23.037
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Recent growth has seen it continue to build on its globally established reputation, advancing its journey to net zero, including embarking upon a carbon balancing journey with the world and trust and recruiting more of the fire sector's best talent, with the team now in excess of 100 professionals.

00:02:23.037 --> 00:02:32.092
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>In 2023, ofr will grow its team once more and is keen to hear from industry professionals who want to collaborate on fire safety futures this year.

00:02:32.092 --> 00:02:34.496
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Get in touch at OFRconsultantscom.

00:02:34.496 --> 00:02:38.872
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And now let's learn about how to protect batteries from fire.

00:02:38.872 --> 00:03:11.674
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Still talking about the battlefield and how it's changing today 100 episodes and not much has changed and, paweł, welcome to the podcast.

00:03:11.800 --> 00:03:14.281
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Thanks for a month, thanks for having me, thanks, guys.

00:03:14.281 --> 00:03:42.539
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And as I told you privately before we started and I'm now going to share with the audience, there was a lot of battery episodes in Fire Science Show and they're all very popular and that's very important to engineers around the world and I've been so far interviewing mostly scientists on the subject and for this podcast episode I thought I need to have some real engineers with skills and experience on this field on the ground to give them all a relatable view on the subject.

00:03:42.539 --> 00:03:48.960
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I really want to understand the engineers perspective and I'm pretty sure you guys can provide me with that.

00:03:48.960 --> 00:04:02.000
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So, to start with Ali, in your emails you've drawn a very nice context of the whole energy transition system as a part of a bigger transition that we need on our world in all.

00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:04.163
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So let's start with that.

00:04:04.163 --> 00:04:11.120
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So let's ask ourselves why are we dealing with the battery problem instead of just banning them and living our lives on?

00:04:11.961 --> 00:04:17.406
<v Ali Ashrafi>Sure, so I'll give a quick introduction and then Paul can expand more on how it really fits.

00:04:17.406 --> 00:04:25.336
<v Ali Ashrafi>But basically we're in a world where climate change is a major driver of a lot of hazards and risk for us.

00:04:25.336 --> 00:04:42.228
<v Ali Ashrafi>Right, so we have in the US, but globally we are seeing wildfires that are happening much more frequently and much more intensely every year, and that's a lot of risk to human life and to our built environment and in our society.

00:04:42.228 --> 00:04:48.016
<v Ali Ashrafi>We're seeing hurricanes that are happening strongly and more strongly and more frequently.

00:04:48.016 --> 00:04:51.802
<v Ali Ashrafi>We have the challenge to food safety.

00:04:51.802 --> 00:04:55.586
<v Ali Ashrafi>The climate has significant geopolitical impacts.

00:04:55.586 --> 00:05:08.204
<v Ali Ashrafi>We both live in New York, and last week, or I guess two weeks ago, new York City was black because of this, more coming from wildfires from Canada, and this is something that California experienced and other places to write.

00:05:08.223 --> 00:05:41.494
<v Ali Ashrafi>So we are in a context where we have very large macro scale risks to human society, including risks to life, and so part of that response is we need to move towards renewable energies, and when you look at that, whether it's wind or solar, for example, when and where you're producing that is different from when and where you're going to be using that Right, and so to fill that gap, we have multiple elements, including massive amounts of energy storage.

00:05:41.494 --> 00:05:45.600
<v Ali Ashrafi>So when you're looking at the context of energy storage, it's not an abstract.

00:05:45.600 --> 00:06:00.009
<v Ali Ashrafi>It's coming in the context of we're dealing with this very global challenge to our society, including life safety risks and food safety risks, risk to our financial system, and so that's where energy storage comes in.

00:06:00.009 --> 00:06:04.870
<v Ali Ashrafi>Paul will can give a much, much better description of the elements of that system.

00:06:04.870 --> 00:06:05.552
<v Ali Ashrafi>Please go on.

00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:10.773
<v Paweł Woelke>Yeah, so not to be repetitive, but I think it's useful to state a couple of basic facts.

00:06:10.773 --> 00:06:12.526
<v Paweł Woelke>Climate change is a fact.

00:06:12.526 --> 00:06:21.254
<v Paweł Woelke>We are all working towards the Paris Agreement goals, so that these are 2015 goals one and a half degree above pre-industrial levels.

00:06:21.254 --> 00:06:25.911
<v Paweł Woelke>Now reaching those goals requires deep decarbonization of the entire world economy.

00:06:25.911 --> 00:06:37.800
<v Paweł Woelke>You can't decarbonize world economy without looking at the energy flow, because energy flow energy in general is both supply and demand sectors are responsible for about 90 to 95 percent of global emissions.

00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:53.057
<v Paweł Woelke>If you look at the energy both supply and demand sectors then, as Ali mentioned earlier, one of the key elements of the energy transition is related to renewable energy sources, replacing fossil fuels with renewable energy sources.

00:06:53.057 --> 00:06:59.160
<v Paweł Woelke>Those are incredibly efficient about 95 percent, depending on which piece you pick.

00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:00.274
<v Paweł Woelke>It also cleats.

00:07:00.274 --> 00:07:20.488
<v Paweł Woelke>The problem is that they're intermittent, so you have to address the what's called peak shaving, and the two most effective ways of addressing this arguably are expansion of grid and ultra high voltage, long distance transfer of the power, and the second one is energy storage systems, the various ways in which you could store energy.

00:07:20.488 --> 00:07:32.800
<v Paweł Woelke>Hydrogen is actually the most scalable from the point of view of energy density, but the most ubiquitous right now is lithium ion batteries and those could be grid supporting batteries that basically allow you to address the intermittency issues.

00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:42.807
<v Paweł Woelke>So it's a key enabling element, element that enables the energy transition from point of view of both supply and demand sector Going into demand.

00:07:43.389 --> 00:07:45.399
<v Paweł Woelke>You're talking about transportation, manufacturing and buildings.

00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:49.600
<v Paweł Woelke>Transportation is leading the way and it's focusing primarily on electrification.

00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:56.653
<v Paweł Woelke>There are various debates over that makes sense before the energy supply is decarbonized, but we'll talk to the cycle.

00:07:56.653 --> 00:07:58.466
<v Paweł Woelke>That's a different topic, I guess.

00:07:58.466 --> 00:08:02.732
<v Paweł Woelke>And electrifying transport means a huge expansion of electric vehicles.

00:08:02.732 --> 00:08:07.451
<v Paweł Woelke>They're for lithium ion batteries that are entering and mass into the urban area.

00:08:07.451 --> 00:08:15.000
<v Paweł Woelke>And when you start talking about safety aspects of lithium ion batteries, thermal runaway in the middle of nowhere is one issue.

00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:26.836
<v Paweł Woelke>It's a significant issue, but it's a different issue than the thermal runaway of a series of vehicles happening sequentially as a cascading effect within the urban area, especially if it's densely populated area.

00:08:26.836 --> 00:08:36.293
<v Paweł Woelke>So these elements are some of the key issues that we're focusing on Not to neglect the other two, to broadly the other two energy demand sectors, that's building and manufacturing.

00:08:36.841 --> 00:08:40.389
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If I look at buildings, so we do have these energy storage systems.

00:08:40.389 --> 00:08:43.568
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You said that, okay, you can have it in the middle of the desert next to a solar farm.

00:08:43.568 --> 00:08:44.150
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That's okay.

00:08:44.150 --> 00:08:46.559
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You can have the energy vehicles inside the city.

00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:50.600
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That would be another, like a movable energy storage device.

00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:54.466
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Wherever then the car stops, there's the storage.

00:08:54.466 --> 00:09:05.320
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But also in the city you would have, to some extent, a smaller scale power banks for buildings, or people would be building power banks in their houses, or maybe even, perhaps even apartments.

00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:08.179
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So can you tell me about this middle ground between them?

00:09:08.701 --> 00:09:12.408
<v Paweł Woelke>It's a very good point, you know, just parking, electrification of vehicles.

00:09:12.408 --> 00:09:13.150
<v Paweł Woelke>For a second.

00:09:13.150 --> 00:09:18.009
<v Paweł Woelke>We'll get back to buildings, because it's obviously tightly, tightly, tightly tied with buildings.

00:09:18.009 --> 00:09:37.408
<v Paweł Woelke>If we talk about batteries that are used for let's just call it broadly energy management at the level of the building, anything that requires emergency power backup so think hospitals, think data centers, anything that uses diesel generators will likely be gradually replacing to energy Other systems that will serve as emergency power.

00:09:37.408 --> 00:09:40.808
<v Paweł Woelke>Back Batteries would be the easiest way to solve that problem.

00:09:40.808 --> 00:09:52.465
<v Paweł Woelke>Now that creates another issue, because those systems will have to be placed either inside the buildings, depending on where you are, or in close proximity, and that has to do with the amount of copper wire you're using.

00:09:52.465 --> 00:09:55.952
<v Paweł Woelke>Cost related to this, efficiency and things like that.

00:09:57.022 --> 00:10:00.456
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Or simply the fact you had a diesel generator in the building and you want to replace it.

00:10:00.456 --> 00:10:05.721
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So exactly, the whole infrastructure is there and yeah, so from that point of view.

00:10:06.403 --> 00:10:11.553
<v Paweł Woelke>There are obviously risks related to operating diesel generators, but these are fairly well defined and understood.

00:10:11.553 --> 00:10:38.693
<v Paweł Woelke>If you replace that generator with battery, which is the right thing to do from the point of view of decarbonizing your building, your asset, you have to address the change in the risk profile and that is a significant challenge, simply related to the fact that this energy storage system is going to be bigger than, say, a single electric vehicle, any electric vehicle because it's supposed to manage the energy flow on the level of the building, or a much bigger asset.

00:10:38.693 --> 00:10:56.687
<v Paweł Woelke>So, absolutely, as you've asked or as you've stated, these energy storage systems, whether it's lithium ion, batteries or other systems, entering the built world, built environment, in support of the energy management for those specific assets, is another key element that we're looking at and focus is going quite intense.

00:10:57.160 --> 00:11:12.369
<v Ali Ashrafi>And, if I can add to that, in general codes do tend to follow the technology by some delay, right, if the technology gets developed and it takes time to figure out the solutions and put it in the code.

00:11:12.369 --> 00:11:17.195
<v Ali Ashrafi>But for technologies that are more mature, most of that has happened.

00:11:17.195 --> 00:11:22.297
<v Ali Ashrafi>In this context we're looking at something that's a very fast-changing technology.

00:11:22.297 --> 00:11:25.639
<v Ali Ashrafi>It's actually a family of technologies.

00:11:25.639 --> 00:11:36.059
<v Ali Ashrafi>We say these came on batteries, but looking at different chemistries and then how they're put together and the safety systems that go in them and then how the context of where you're using that.

00:11:36.059 --> 00:11:40.280
<v Ali Ashrafi>It is a very quickly changing problem.

00:11:40.280 --> 00:11:47.231
<v Ali Ashrafi>By definition, you are looking at the context where the codes are going to be playing catch-up, not just now.

00:11:47.231 --> 00:11:49.351
<v Ali Ashrafi>It's not the problem that's going to be fixed Next year.

00:11:49.351 --> 00:11:56.398
<v Ali Ashrafi>It is a problem that's going to be with us, which requires to move from cookie-cutter solutions which are not developed.

00:11:56.398 --> 00:12:03.581
<v Ali Ashrafi>It really requires looking at specific analysis and engineering to come up with solutions that are context-specific.

00:12:03.581 --> 00:12:05.938
<v Ali Ashrafi>So it's really moving towards performance-based design.

00:12:06.009 --> 00:12:15.341
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>By codes you mean like a specific NFPA standard for application, or you mean like IBC or New York requirements, or both of these.

00:12:16.433 --> 00:12:24.658
<v Ali Ashrafi>All of the above Okay, because just the time, the speed of change in technology doesn't match the speed of development of the code.

00:12:24.658 --> 00:12:30.317
<v Ali Ashrafi>Again, in this particular area, it's a very complex problem.

00:12:30.317 --> 00:12:36.562
<v Ali Ashrafi>So coming up with solutions, the solutions will really vary depending on the context of the solution.

00:12:36.562 --> 00:12:43.816
<v Ali Ashrafi>So it is large-scale energy storage, is it movable energy storage, how many people you have Can you evaluate people or not?

00:12:43.816 --> 00:12:55.922
<v Ali Ashrafi>Those are all factors that could impact what the solution looks like and all of those are hard to come up with a cookie-cutter solution for them in the context of this changing technology.

00:12:56.211 --> 00:12:57.075
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I would take that further.

00:12:57.075 --> 00:13:03.470
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So in a slow-paced world you would expect first some sort of laboratory standard for tests.

00:13:03.470 --> 00:13:11.961
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So let's say UL develops a standard to test power banks or large batteries for purpose of using them in vehicles.

00:13:11.961 --> 00:13:21.177
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Then this is adopted by somebody like NFPAs, who define that this is the certain way you use them and this is how you provide safety to them.

00:13:21.177 --> 00:13:29.582
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And then let's say New York City Council says the law Okay, guys, just use UL-tested NFPA guidelines to deliver it safely.

00:13:29.649 --> 00:13:33.341
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But today UL is working on their thing very rapidly.

00:13:33.341 --> 00:13:49.138
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I know because I had Adam Barovin here who's in the middle of designing that and it's crazy how much work these guys have NFPAs developing their own standards as fast as they can, and I am very impressed by the speed they can actually do that compared to our European legislation.

00:13:49.138 --> 00:13:54.519
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But still it's lagging behind the technology, like you said, because today we have different batteries than three years ago.

00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:56.676
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And then you have your own city council.

00:13:56.676 --> 00:14:04.434
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You have your own like IBC and other bodies who have to do the battlefield design and then don't have desiccers.

00:14:04.434 --> 00:14:08.782
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So what sort of tools engineers have today to design with?

00:14:08.782 --> 00:14:11.399
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Because it feels kind of scattered, right.

00:14:11.450 --> 00:14:30.020
<v Paweł Woelke>Yeah, I think that's a very interesting thread and I agree with your assessment as to the speed at which the various governing bodies are working and including UL from the point of view of testing, and part of the issue is just how complex the problem is and how much we know about it or not know about it because it's a new relation.

00:14:30.491 --> 00:14:33.366
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I would just like to emphasize it's not a critique that they're slow.

00:14:33.366 --> 00:14:38.500
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yeah yeah, it's just the environment that we are in.

00:14:38.500 --> 00:14:39.523
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You know, absolutely.

00:14:39.523 --> 00:14:48.339
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It worked for 100 years, but it never was supposed to work with the technology that changes generation after generation in one year cycle.

00:14:48.339 --> 00:14:49.509
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That's crazy, right.

00:14:49.691 --> 00:14:54.889
<v Paweł Woelke>And even if you, for example, freeze the specific aspect of technology.

00:14:54.889 --> 00:15:02.909
<v Paweł Woelke>So let's just say you use exactly the same chemistry of exactly the same battery and you test it 10 times, you're going to get a lot of different answers.

00:15:02.909 --> 00:15:04.510
<v Paweł Woelke>I'm not going to say 10 different answers, ok.

00:15:04.510 --> 00:15:07.259
<v Paweł Woelke>There's huge variability in the test outcomes.

00:15:07.259 --> 00:15:12.695
<v Paweł Woelke>Repetibility of the test results is very, very small, and that's part of the issue.

00:15:12.695 --> 00:15:15.899
<v Paweł Woelke>So, going back to your other question, what can we do?

00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:26.519
<v Paweł Woelke>So we have to use being informed by the test data that exists and, in the same time, address it from the point of view of not the worst case scenario.

00:15:27.110 --> 00:15:41.798
<v Paweł Woelke>If we treated the way we've treated other problems, sort of in a deterministic way, that we identify the worst case scenario for any particular problem or any particular solution that we need to develop, then it's unlikely we're going to find an effective solution.

00:15:41.798 --> 00:16:00.217
<v Paweł Woelke>If we, however, apply more of a probabilistic method and risk-based method, something that oil and gas industry and nuclear industry is very well versed in, then now we have a real shot of finding very effective solution to a problem, and that is specifically what we're doing.

00:16:00.217 --> 00:16:02.517
<v Paweł Woelke>We're basically looking at it from the point of view of risk.

00:16:02.517 --> 00:16:08.701
<v Paweł Woelke>Risk, just to be complete, is a product of probability of occurrence and its consequence.

00:16:08.701 --> 00:16:11.719
<v Paweł Woelke>So you've got two separate levers that you get to play with.

00:16:11.719 --> 00:16:26.220
<v Paweł Woelke>How do you limit or reduce the probability of occurrence and then, once it does occur which you have to assume it will what is the consequence and how you address that consequence or vulnerability in the case of structure, that's another term that's typically used for those.

00:16:26.690 --> 00:16:36.099
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But in this approach you would also have the third part, which would be the acceptance, like where your acceptance is and how do you decide where to put it so right, so that typically that's managed on the level of risk.

00:16:36.169 --> 00:16:46.620
<v Paweł Woelke>So you basically calculate the risk as the product of those two elements, so likelihood of probability of occurrence, times, consequence and then you basically quantify the risk in that fashion.

00:16:46.620 --> 00:16:49.538
<v Paweł Woelke>And then you have to talk to the stakeholders.

00:16:49.538 --> 00:16:55.458
<v Paweł Woelke>You have to engage the stakeholders, all the stakeholders, to define what the acceptable level of risk is.

00:16:55.458 --> 00:16:58.096
<v Paweł Woelke>And so that's where the acceptance comes in.

00:16:58.096 --> 00:17:03.996
<v Paweł Woelke>And it's a similar approach to other extreme loading cases like intentional attacks and things like that.

00:17:03.996 --> 00:17:06.076
<v Paweł Woelke>Zero risk is not achievable.

00:17:06.076 --> 00:17:18.299
<v Paweł Woelke>You have to define the line where that certain level of risk is acceptable, and that depends on the stakeholders and it's not uniform across jurisdictions owners, what have you?

00:17:18.299 --> 00:17:19.201
<v Paweł Woelke>Or the world?

00:17:19.589 --> 00:17:35.992
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So it would be some sort of consensus or discussion driven process to find the target and as soon as you agree with your client, you would then seek solutions on the side of the probability and on the side of the consequences, the consequence correct.

00:17:37.030 --> 00:17:40.721
<v Ali Ashrafi>We've been talking about some of the things that are new about this.

00:17:40.721 --> 00:17:43.459
<v Ali Ashrafi>It's maybe important to also emphasize what hasn't changed.

00:17:43.459 --> 00:17:59.273
<v Ali Ashrafi>So what Talba was talking about is something that we do in other contexts of design, where, when we're designing buildings to be safe for earthquakes or for wind, we're designing given a small probability of something worse happening.

00:17:59.273 --> 00:18:02.345
<v Ali Ashrafi>Right, because you can't design for an infinite risk.

00:18:02.345 --> 00:18:08.083
<v Ali Ashrafi>You have to balance your risks against what you're doing, both for that building and with everything else.

00:18:08.083 --> 00:18:13.383
<v Ali Ashrafi>So, in the context of the building, you have a risk from earthquake, you have a risk from hurricane, you have a risk from fire.

00:18:13.383 --> 00:18:27.815
<v Ali Ashrafi>All those things should be roughly in line with each other, right, and even looking at it from a perspective of society, we don't use all our money to build buildings but not have anything on education or on food safety and all that right.

00:18:27.815 --> 00:18:35.507
<v Ali Ashrafi>We're trying to have a reasonable level of safety, and so what Paolo is talking about is fully in line with what we do in other contexts.

00:18:36.236 --> 00:18:48.584
<v Ali Ashrafi>Sometimes, in fire, people are less used to the idea of explicitly defining what that level of hazard and risk is, but that's what we need to do in this context, right, but it's not different from what we do in other contexts.

00:18:48.584 --> 00:19:06.815
<v Ali Ashrafi>In terms of approval, too, we've always had new technologies come up right and codes do allow you to go through an approval process where you show what's happening and you have a discussion with the authority that has to approve that and give them the right level of comfort that what you're doing is safe and okay.

00:19:06.815 --> 00:19:16.307
<v Ali Ashrafi>It's just when technologies are developing slowly, it's time to educate and make people comfortable gradually along with that.

00:19:16.307 --> 00:19:23.786
<v Ali Ashrafi>Now we have to do that at a much larger scale, right, so we have to kind of have a large-scale discussion about in this context.

00:19:23.786 --> 00:19:35.106
<v Ali Ashrafi>We're going to do a lot of design that's going to be different from the past, using the same principles, and so their discussions will be much more context-specific and performance-based.

00:19:36.195 --> 00:19:38.805
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>What fuels your input for this analysis?

00:19:38.805 --> 00:19:41.332
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Let's say, let's focus on probability.

00:19:41.332 --> 00:19:52.548
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>For a second, like you rely on data provided by manufacturers of batteries, you rely on statistical data for, let's say, I don't know, a new acquired department.

00:19:52.548 --> 00:20:01.584
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>How does one, in this scarcity and chaos around, finds reliable data to work with, or the most reliable you can find?

00:20:01.934 --> 00:20:03.561
<v Paweł Woelke>Yeah, so that's a very good question.

00:20:03.561 --> 00:20:05.702
<v Paweł Woelke>I mean, it's also a very difficult question.

00:20:05.702 --> 00:20:08.443
<v Paweł Woelke>There's a simple answer and then the more difficult answer.

00:20:08.443 --> 00:20:10.442
<v Paweł Woelke>The simple answer is that there's not enough data.

00:20:10.442 --> 00:20:24.765
<v Paweł Woelke>We've got a lot of events, but every event can be classified as its own thing, because the battery is different, the age of the battery is different, the conditions it was subjected to is different, so it doesn't need to be fit into a category that you can use and mindful data.

00:20:26.297 --> 00:20:29.775
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's not like a cigarette to a couch type of a scenario.

00:20:30.236 --> 00:20:32.523
<v Paweł Woelke>Yeah, and it's not like a seismic scenario, for example.

00:20:32.523 --> 00:20:38.260
<v Paweł Woelke>You've got a return period, you've got data that you could basically lean on and define the probability of occurrence.

00:20:38.260 --> 00:20:44.815
<v Paweł Woelke>So we're just getting into the element of the probability of occurrence based on the events that we're observing.

00:20:44.815 --> 00:21:00.443
<v Paweł Woelke>So right now, to get more directly to the question that you posed, right now, if you're dealing with a significant element of energy storage system, specifically that you might embodies being housed inside a building or your asset, you have to assume that storm or runaway will occur.

00:21:00.443 --> 00:21:02.782
<v Paweł Woelke>That's almost a certainty.

00:21:03.276 --> 00:21:13.164
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So you would design, with probability of one, that at the life of this building setup there would be a signal Okay.

00:21:13.815 --> 00:21:19.722
<v Paweł Woelke>And then there's a question of whether you want to and this goes back, then, to the overall risk matrix.

00:21:19.722 --> 00:21:21.490
<v Paweł Woelke>Is okay, do you have one?

00:21:21.490 --> 00:21:22.272
<v Paweł Woelke>Do you have two?

00:21:22.272 --> 00:21:22.815
<v Paweł Woelke>Do you have three?

00:21:22.815 --> 00:21:30.815
<v Paweł Woelke>We are not currently working with the assumption that you would have independent, instantaneous thermal runaway and multiple energy storage system.

00:21:30.815 --> 00:21:32.501
<v Paweł Woelke>In other words, only one.

00:21:33.217 --> 00:21:46.265
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Sorry, pavel, but you would consider this as a thermal runaway of a cell, of a module, of a whole pack, or probability to each of those and no, so single cell goes into thermal runaway, that's one.

00:21:46.915 --> 00:21:55.424
<v Paweł Woelke>And then, once you have a single cell going into thermal runaway, another assumption is that on the probability side is that you have to assume that it will propagate.

00:21:55.424 --> 00:22:02.795
<v Paweł Woelke>It will cascade cell to cell inside the pack, so the whole pack is going basically is the assumption within the single vehicle.

00:22:02.795 --> 00:22:06.815
<v Paweł Woelke>And then you start putting into okay, what are the fundamentals of what's happening?

00:22:06.815 --> 00:22:08.540
<v Paweł Woelke>Does it propagate?

00:22:08.540 --> 00:22:18.807
<v Paweł Woelke>And now you don't have to really play so much with probabilities based on existing data, you can now get into the science of what's actually happening, the fundamental physics and chemistry of what's happening.

00:22:19.921 --> 00:22:24.949
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So in your design scenario the basic brick would be a pack, and how many cells are.

00:22:24.949 --> 00:22:25.733
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>How big is a pack?

00:22:26.636 --> 00:22:28.040
<v Paweł Woelke>It's usually thousands of cells.

00:22:28.040 --> 00:22:29.625
<v Paweł Woelke>It depends on the size of the vehicle.

00:22:29.625 --> 00:22:39.795
<v Paweł Woelke>Size of the vehicle, mostly in this case, size of the battery overall and it types of the cells right when it's a cylindrical powered cell, whatever it may be.

00:22:39.795 --> 00:22:41.042
<v Paweł Woelke>So it varies greatly.

00:22:41.042 --> 00:22:42.815
<v Paweł Woelke>Right now it's in the pace of development.

00:22:42.815 --> 00:22:47.815
<v Paweł Woelke>We usually just work with the overall energy content.

00:22:47.815 --> 00:22:52.326
<v Paweł Woelke>So you're talking, on the level of a car, 120 to 200 kilowatt hours.

00:22:52.326 --> 00:23:02.815
<v Paweł Woelke>And then the other aspect of it is basically the data that exists of this type of a pack in terms of but here you'd consider the whole car battery as a single pack.

00:23:03.076 --> 00:23:05.262
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>so in this scenario the whole okay, the whole thing.

00:23:06.175 --> 00:23:18.483
<v Paweł Woelke>Yeah, you don't really start from thinking about a single cell and try to assess that a thermal runaway in a single cell propagates to another cell and the rate at which it does where it stops, and all of that.

00:23:18.483 --> 00:23:25.425
<v Paweł Woelke>That requires specific knowledge of the battery system, of the battery system design, and we don't have that knowledge.

00:23:25.425 --> 00:23:28.686
<v Paweł Woelke>I mean, we could have that knowledge, but the point of view of a building owner?

00:23:28.686 --> 00:23:29.634
<v Paweł Woelke>They don't have that knowledge.

00:23:29.634 --> 00:23:31.613
<v Paweł Woelke>The car pulls up and it's got what it's got.

00:23:32.497 --> 00:23:46.638
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>When I'm talking with my fellow colleague scientists, I often say like it's probably very difficult and perhaps even naive for a fire scientist to do the research on the battery.

00:23:46.638 --> 00:23:53.815
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Fires like cell-to-cell propagation chemistry inside the battery, if you're outside of the industry.

00:23:53.815 --> 00:24:07.602
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You have to do this research with the battery industry to be relevant, because if you rely on buying batteries from the market, you perhaps are quite lagging behind the current development of technologies, right?

00:24:07.602 --> 00:24:13.567
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So it's difficult to affect, as a fire scientist or engineer, the interior of the pack.

00:24:13.567 --> 00:24:15.239
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Now, exterior of the pack.

00:24:15.239 --> 00:24:19.442
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yes, this is your regime, this is your building, this is where you can work.

00:24:19.442 --> 00:24:27.125
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But you also have to understand the context of that was my next question how the context of the pack and chemistry influence outside the fire itself.

00:24:27.815 --> 00:24:30.544
<v Ali Ashrafi>And Roy said, if I can add something to what Pavel was saying.

00:24:31.076 --> 00:24:35.945
<v Ali Ashrafi>So just again putting it into context, it's what we do for other types of risks.

00:24:35.945 --> 00:24:49.780
<v Ali Ashrafi>Right, so you have a building, we do everything we can to minimize the risk of a fire starting, right, but we have a whole set of safety features that are based on the assumption of fire does happen and the fire is not the match.

00:24:49.780 --> 00:24:51.705
<v Ali Ashrafi>The fire is a decent-sized fire.

00:24:51.705 --> 00:24:53.722
<v Ali Ashrafi>How do you manage that, right?

00:24:53.722 --> 00:25:03.089
<v Ali Ashrafi>So in this context we're looking at yes, you absolutely have to do all you can do on the battery manufacturer side and control side, and all that to minimize the risk of something happening.

00:25:03.089 --> 00:25:03.673
<v Ali Ashrafi>That's very important.

00:25:03.673 --> 00:25:05.898
<v Ali Ashrafi>Right, you reduce that probability.

00:25:05.898 --> 00:25:16.451
<v Ali Ashrafi>But from a perspective of a design of a building, whether you have people and facilities and assets, you have to make the assumption that something does go wrong.

00:25:16.451 --> 00:25:24.888
<v Ali Ashrafi>Right, and something goes wrong at a scale where it's meaningful to you, which is what Paolo is describing Then how can we try to mitigate the effects of that?

00:25:24.888 --> 00:25:28.348
<v Ali Ashrafi>So it's the same general philosophy, but applied in this context.

00:25:28.890 --> 00:25:29.310
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yeah.

00:25:29.310 --> 00:25:45.013
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So now let's go into the chemistry or the engineering of a battery pack, like how big a difference is in your approach when you're faced with, let's say, manganese batteries or iron phosphate batteries different chemistries that we know that have different energy densities.

00:25:45.013 --> 00:25:53.630
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>They have different, let's say, charging, discharging properties which affect how they heat up, how quickly they can heat up, and stuff like that.

00:25:53.630 --> 00:25:57.931
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>There are consequences that come from the simple chemistry of the battery the same in the module.

00:25:57.931 --> 00:26:04.046
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If you have a module, you will have different filler between the cells that will affect the propagation.

00:26:04.046 --> 00:26:14.250
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You will have different venting strategies, a lot of little elements that in the end can be a difference between a very hazardous designer or a potentially harmless design.

00:26:14.250 --> 00:26:18.481
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>To what extent engineers must understand it and take this into account designing this system.

00:26:18.481 --> 00:26:19.987
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>The building, yeah.

00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:25.067
<v Paweł Woelke>Very good question again, just to pull back on the previous thread because I think it's interesting.

00:26:25.067 --> 00:26:35.029
<v Paweł Woelke>Just on the scientist or academic research, there's always value and fundamental research Benefits detach and it's very often detached from the industrial application.

00:26:35.029 --> 00:26:38.988
<v Paweł Woelke>But if it is insightful, let's just say which.

00:26:38.988 --> 00:26:42.523
<v Paweł Woelke>We know that some papers are more so there, more insightful than others.

00:26:42.523 --> 00:26:50.569
<v Paweł Woelke>But if it is insightful, you'll find something that fundamentally applies to the technology as it is, even if it weren't informed by the manufacturing.

00:26:50.569 --> 00:26:51.584
<v Paweł Woelke>I just want to throw it out.

00:26:51.584 --> 00:26:54.366
<v Paweł Woelke>I think that the medical research is always value.

00:26:54.366 --> 00:26:55.329
<v Paweł Woelke>Thank you for that.

00:26:55.859 --> 00:26:58.627
<v Paweł Woelke>Going back to your question, all of those things matter.

00:26:58.627 --> 00:27:09.329
<v Paweł Woelke>Just as you said, these are just a little better from the point of view of the oxygen content less oxygen inside, less fueling of the fire, irrespective of what happens outside.

00:27:09.329 --> 00:27:14.744
<v Paweł Woelke>Design of the body, what are the barriers between cells, how are module structures?

00:27:14.744 --> 00:27:18.387
<v Paweł Woelke>All of the stuff that you've mentioned is very important.

00:27:18.387 --> 00:27:21.667
<v Paweł Woelke>As an engineer, you should have knowledge.

00:27:21.667 --> 00:27:23.526
<v Paweł Woelke>You should have as much knowledge as possible.

00:27:24.099 --> 00:27:26.788
<v Paweł Woelke>The problem is you don't know any of this.

00:27:26.788 --> 00:27:27.944
<v Paweł Woelke>You don't know what's pulling up.

00:27:27.944 --> 00:27:39.104
<v Paweł Woelke>What you know is that there's a car pulling up and you can't design it for, say, one brand of a car versus the other, knowing that they have different chemistries used, because you don't control that.

00:27:39.104 --> 00:27:45.404
<v Paweł Woelke>If you own the building and you've got a parking garage with chargers in there, the idea is that you service whatever comes.

00:27:45.404 --> 00:28:04.167
<v Paweł Woelke>So you have to somehow pull it all together and take not necessarily the worst case scenario, the worst battery there is, but something that is associated with a reasonable probability of occurrence and then basically distill it down to a pack with certain energy content, going into thermal runaway with all those goals.

00:28:04.167 --> 00:28:08.289
<v Paweł Woelke>What does that mean at the level of the fire and then potential explosion use?

00:28:09.019 --> 00:28:09.983
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Can we really afford that?

00:28:09.983 --> 00:28:19.027
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I'm worried with a scenario where you would have an outlier type of a vehicle or battery that would be associated with a very high hazard.

00:28:19.027 --> 00:28:28.810
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You would have most of the vehicles that say, with the batteries that are not so based on probability, not that worst case scenario, we would be designing for most of them.

00:28:28.810 --> 00:28:36.909
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And then the one horrible battery comes into my car, creates a huge fire and what the media says is not that they're oh, this was an outlier, it's okay.

00:28:36.909 --> 00:28:40.067
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It would say electric batteries are going to kill us.

00:28:40.067 --> 00:28:42.765
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That's what media will catch up and you know that very well.

00:28:42.765 --> 00:28:43.943
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>She's challenging.

00:28:45.060 --> 00:28:47.970
<v Ali Ashrafi>So, vojicid, I want to say two things.

00:28:47.970 --> 00:28:54.766
<v Ali Ashrafi>One is that first discussion that we had in the beginning that the big picture context is important exactly because of this.

00:28:54.766 --> 00:29:01.211
<v Ali Ashrafi>Right, it is a naturally human tendency to, when you see something new, to see it more often, right?

00:29:01.211 --> 00:29:08.471
<v Ali Ashrafi>So if you see a fire from an electric vehicle, it catches the attention just naturally more, right?

00:29:08.471 --> 00:29:12.490
<v Ali Ashrafi>I know, like, when, if I buy a car, I see that car more often in the street.

00:29:12.490 --> 00:29:13.865
<v Ali Ashrafi>It's just, it's just natural, right.

00:29:14.599 --> 00:29:30.887
<v Ali Ashrafi>But we are talking in the context where climate change is having real large scale, scale of hundreds and thousands and, you know, as it becomes worse, tens of thousands of lives impacted and billions and billions of dollars of damage, right.

00:29:30.887 --> 00:29:34.470
<v Ali Ashrafi>So we have to remember that context.

00:29:34.470 --> 00:29:36.244
<v Ali Ashrafi>So things should be balanced.

00:29:36.244 --> 00:29:37.584
<v Ali Ashrafi>That's one piece of it.

00:29:37.584 --> 00:29:40.468
<v Ali Ashrafi>But then back to your, your broad question.

00:29:40.468 --> 00:29:45.050
<v Ali Ashrafi>I mean, our designs generally do have to be robust, right?

00:29:45.050 --> 00:29:53.346
<v Ali Ashrafi>That's why, unless we have specific information, we don't design for one specific type of case, and there are cases where we have that, right.

00:29:53.346 --> 00:30:02.586
<v Ali Ashrafi>Sometimes we are working with a specific system and manufacturer in a specific area and we know exactly what they're doing, and that's part of the conversation.

00:30:02.586 --> 00:30:22.765
<v Ali Ashrafi>You can customize the design for that, but in the context of a building that's going to see energy storage in various forms of different technologies, including technology, but the changes in the same technology, we have to be reasonable but also robust in our design so that we can provide a reasonable envelope of what's going to happen.

00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:26.388
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And now let's talk about mitigating consequences.

00:30:26.388 --> 00:30:30.205
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So how can you act on this layer?

00:30:30.205 --> 00:30:33.412
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Like preparing your building for a battery fire.

00:30:33.412 --> 00:30:45.932
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If you have a battery storage system, you at least know your opponent, because then you have a chance to design and you know what type of cells, what type of system there is, at least until it's replaced by something else.

00:30:45.932 --> 00:30:52.684
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>In terms of vehicles, let's say, okay, we have a probability distribution of what type of fires you can find.

00:30:52.684 --> 00:31:03.092
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So how would you prepare your building for consequences, what kind of approach and technical solutions you could apply to prepare for that?

00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:04.766
<v Ali Ashrafi>Let me start with an analogy.

00:31:04.766 --> 00:31:08.890
<v Ali Ashrafi>Let's say a common building and we're designing for standard fires, right?

00:31:08.890 --> 00:31:18.471
<v Ali Ashrafi>There are so many different types of things inside the building and they have different types of heat release rate, buildup of the fire, the toxicity, all of that right.

00:31:18.471 --> 00:31:27.487
<v Ali Ashrafi>But we look at the range of things that could happen and define what is reasonable, and some of that becomes physics-based meaning.

00:31:27.487 --> 00:31:35.063
<v Ali Ashrafi>If you know the nature of what's burning, you can come up with reasonable bounds, independent of whether it's a sofa or a bed or something else, right?

00:31:35.063 --> 00:31:44.269
<v Ali Ashrafi>So there are some similarities between lithium ion batteries right, there are differences, but there are also similarities, and there's a range of specific gases that are released.

00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:50.912
<v Ali Ashrafi>So, based on the physics of that problem, there is a bound to what's going to happen.

00:31:50.912 --> 00:32:05.394
<v Ali Ashrafi>We can define what that bound is, and so, within that context, then it becomes a question of quantifying all those various elements and then trying to come up with the right solution in the context of your building.

00:32:05.394 --> 00:32:22.782
<v Ali Ashrafi>So the explosion risk, the fire risk, the toxicity risk, but all of those things being equal, if you have a building that's much more heavily occupied and people are closer to that risk, versus a building where you have less people in it and maybe you have more distance between them.

00:32:22.782 --> 00:32:34.896
<v Ali Ashrafi>The solution could look very different, right, but we have physical limits on what could happen and we could use our understanding of the physics to come up with what's reasonable and robust at the same time.

00:32:35.299 --> 00:32:41.064
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So, from this context, what I distil is that there's no single bullet, no single solution that solves the problem.

00:32:41.064 --> 00:32:43.307
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's all scenario-based.

00:32:43.307 --> 00:32:52.884
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So in the end, actually, the solution is performance-based engineering to some extent, and turning your building into something that responds to the threat that you have now quantified and understood.

00:32:52.884 --> 00:33:10.373
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And when you're going through that performance PPD process, what types of solutions or layers you would play, like detection, suppression, smoke control, all of it, fire resistance of your walls, like where do you guys, engineers, put your eyes on when you approach such a project?

00:33:11.079 --> 00:33:22.090
<v Paweł Woelke>I'll just say one thing, something you said, poitak, that I think is worth emphasizing, and it's building on what Alisa said earlier there's no single solution, there's no silver bullet, and it requires layered approach.

00:33:22.090 --> 00:33:25.714
<v Paweł Woelke>It requires all of the elements of the typical solution.

00:33:25.714 --> 00:33:39.844
<v Paweł Woelke>Not a typical solution nothing about this is typical but strategies that are often used to manage the risk, and the key element of it is that, despite the variability going into what you're dealing with from the point of view of the type of battery that may be initiating you.

00:33:39.844 --> 00:34:02.340
<v Paweł Woelke>So, basically, the layered solution is what has to be used for every single person like this, and it is very strongly dependent On variety of other things, like the level of ventilation in the building, for example, the amount of confinement and congestion that you're providing to the gases that are ejected from the battery, what sort of gases are being emitted at their formability limit is.

00:34:02.340 --> 00:34:07.066
<v Paweł Woelke>All of those different things are basically a necessary consideration to design a solution.

00:34:07.691 --> 00:34:25.023
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So, again going back to the comparison of the desert power wall and the, let's say, residential battery that's used to power the house, a vehicle that's moving around to set up like what are we, what are goals, what we are protecting for.

00:34:25.023 --> 00:34:51.596
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So If you could go through like what would be your number one objective when you're designing a fire strategy for a large out of the city center, something more like a part of the building and something that Is just a place where accidentally or where, for you, for other other reasons, of a battery may occur, like, appear like it's car park or something yeah, right yeah.

00:34:51.615 --> 00:34:57.324
<v Ali Ashrafi>So those two are very different context for design, and so the objectives and the solution could look very different.

00:34:57.324 --> 00:34:59.172
<v Ali Ashrafi>So let's take the easy one first.

00:34:59.172 --> 00:35:01.157
<v Ali Ashrafi>Yeah, I wonder what's the easy one?

00:35:01.157 --> 00:35:20.561
<v Ali Ashrafi>Go on, so you have a large amount of energy storage, but in a place that's remote, in a desert like it's, in a place that's not occupied, right away from other things, it's actually much easier physical problem to manage because you have an outdoor environment.

00:35:20.561 --> 00:35:42.737
<v Ali Ashrafi>The Gases mostly dissipate and go up, the heat dissipates, the hazardous materials dissipate, you're not worried about impacting someone, and so all it comes down to what can you do to make sure that you could minimize the extent of damage and minimize the consequences so that it's your functionality still there?

00:35:42.737 --> 00:35:45.704
<v Ali Ashrafi>So let's say this is energy backup for for something.

00:35:45.704 --> 00:35:52.382
<v Ali Ashrafi>You could lose a module somewhere and you could contain it and you can continue to have that system operate as a power backup.

00:35:53.010 --> 00:36:04.065
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That's a much easier problem so you design simply for resiliency of the infrastructure like and to not damage it's, it's fundamental girl in being a battery storage for a facility.

00:36:04.065 --> 00:36:14.885
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So just separation distances and stuff like that and you assume a park can just die from the fire and as long as as the majorities on harm, you're good to go right.

00:36:15.250 --> 00:36:16.030
<v Ali Ashrafi>I would say mostly.

00:36:16.030 --> 00:36:16.190
<v Ali Ashrafi>So.

00:36:16.190 --> 00:36:19.094
<v Ali Ashrafi>Now, again, it depends on what the client looks for, right?

00:36:19.094 --> 00:36:22.958
<v Ali Ashrafi>So the level of that would be higher or lower.

00:36:22.958 --> 00:36:29.344
<v Ali Ashrafi>But, yes, you're trying to minimize the actual damage and you're trying to maintain the functionality of that system.

00:36:29.344 --> 00:36:30.929
<v Ali Ashrafi>So have a more resilient design, cool.

00:36:31.510 --> 00:36:40.242
<v Ali Ashrafi>When we go to the other end of this, which is now you're in the middle of dense urban area, potentially inside the building, is a totally different problem, right?

00:36:40.242 --> 00:36:45.592
<v Ali Ashrafi>So now you have the risk, same hazards, but you have people close to it.

00:36:45.592 --> 00:36:49.518
<v Ali Ashrafi>You have a lot of assets close to it which create its own problems.

00:36:49.518 --> 00:36:54.483
<v Ali Ashrafi>A, it changes the nature of the physical risks that we have, right?

00:36:54.483 --> 00:36:59.335
<v Ali Ashrafi>So if you have, if you're in a more contained space, the fire impact is different.

00:36:59.335 --> 00:37:02.101
<v Ali Ashrafi>You have more of an explosion potential.

00:37:02.101 --> 00:37:06.976
<v Ali Ashrafi>The hazardous material is released inside the building.

00:37:06.976 --> 00:37:13.625
<v Ali Ashrafi>Your access is more limited, right, so the fire service has more limited access compared to an open area, right?

00:37:13.625 --> 00:37:16.755
<v Ali Ashrafi>And then you're looking at okay, this is happening.

00:37:16.755 --> 00:37:18.159
<v Ali Ashrafi>Where are the people?

00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:19.862
<v Ali Ashrafi>How far are they from this?

00:37:19.862 --> 00:37:23.938
<v Ali Ashrafi>Can they evacuate in a safe way, given the level of risk?

00:37:23.938 --> 00:37:32.842
<v Ali Ashrafi>Is there is the redundancy in that If somehow they need to shelter in place or they take it takes them longer to do that because it's a vulnerable group of people.

00:37:32.842 --> 00:37:38.021
<v Ali Ashrafi>What can we need to give them that extra level of time to deal with that?

00:37:38.021 --> 00:37:38.380
<v Ali Ashrafi>Right?

00:37:39.429 --> 00:37:46.597
<v Ali Ashrafi>The fire service task is again, as it's a, much more complicated for the same reasons they're going in.

00:37:46.597 --> 00:37:51.623
<v Ali Ashrafi>There is that direct, direct risk of the fire, but they have to protect the people.

00:37:51.623 --> 00:37:55.565
<v Ali Ashrafi>They need to make sure they manage the extent of the risk.

00:37:55.565 --> 00:38:03.981
<v Ali Ashrafi>If it's a building, you don't want the building to be damaged and affect something that's next to it, and sometimes these things happen.

00:38:03.981 --> 00:38:04.342
<v Ali Ashrafi>You might.

00:38:04.342 --> 00:38:08.896
<v Ali Ashrafi>You know there's a large fire, they might evacuate buildings and a block next door.

00:38:08.896 --> 00:38:12.242
<v Ali Ashrafi>So that's, that's a larger impact, and these fires take long right.

00:38:12.242 --> 00:38:23.155
<v Ali Ashrafi>So when it comes inside the dense urban area, suddenly the consequences become much more important and the physics of the hazard also becomes trickier.

00:38:23.155 --> 00:38:34.632
<v Ali Ashrafi>Right so that balance of what's the right solution, and so that's where we need to come up with solutions that are specific to, to the context of a specific location and suppression to what?

00:38:34.793 --> 00:38:39.163
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>and you find suppression is a part of this and a specific approach yet?

00:38:39.449 --> 00:38:41.032
<v Paweł Woelke>That's a very good question again.

00:38:41.032 --> 00:38:41.773
<v Paweł Woelke>So there's no.

00:38:41.773 --> 00:38:50.773
<v Paweł Woelke>If you just look at it from the point of view of the lithium ion battery itself going into thermal runaway and basically being on fire, there's no single fire suppressant.

00:38:50.773 --> 00:39:04.916
<v Paweł Woelke>That just addresses the situation, which is one of the key challenges, because you know the typical design, even performance basis, often based on the response time or why, are breaking, basically arriving on the on location and addressing the situation.

00:39:04.916 --> 00:39:06.699
<v Paweł Woelke>They arrive right right now.

00:39:06.699 --> 00:39:09.483
<v Paweł Woelke>They've got limited means of putting the fire out.

00:39:09.483 --> 00:39:14.815
<v Paweł Woelke>Now, that said, water is one of the most effective ways to keep temper.

00:39:14.815 --> 00:39:19.702
<v Paweł Woelke>The only problem, or the problem with water based solution as a single.

00:39:19.702 --> 00:39:33.710
<v Paweł Woelke>Again, if it were to be treated as a silver bullet, the amount of it required to remove enough heat to stop the cycle from propagating would be would be basically impossible, not effective for a typical building to handle.

00:39:33.869 --> 00:39:33.989
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But.

00:39:33.989 --> 00:39:47.603
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But it's not because of the ineffectiveness of water itself, it's because of the way how you can apply water, like there is no good way to actually apply it effectively into the battery or that's correct.

00:39:47.690 --> 00:39:51.675
<v Paweł Woelke>Yeah, so you'd have to immerse the battery in water, in the pool of water.

00:39:51.675 --> 00:40:06.778
<v Paweł Woelke>Right, and if you think about this, let's just say, hypothetically speaking, of every single spot had a pool, that would allow you to basically immerse the battery that's in the process of thermal right away in that pool, and that pool wouldn't necessarily have to be big enough to merge the entire car.

00:40:06.778 --> 00:40:19.550
<v Paweł Woelke>So you're not talking about the potentially impossible amounts of war, but right now, because of the way it's applied, the amount of water you would need in a sprinkler system, for example, it's just not feasible, in part because of what you said.

00:40:19.960 --> 00:40:30.340
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But again, if we're thinking about the whole building safety strategy, we very rarely expect that sprinklers will suppress the fire completely.

00:40:30.340 --> 00:40:31.443
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>They are supposed to.

00:40:31.443 --> 00:40:42.480
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>At least we're talking yes, if our sprinklers in warehouses, they are supposed to control the consequences and provide a chance for fire brigade to attack the fire.

00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:49.454
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So I don't understand why would we need, in this particular case because it's a battery why now it would be expected to contain it.

00:40:49.454 --> 00:40:59.112
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And I think this also gives us a better chance as engineers to engineer the solution, because we're again back to our usually no bounds of how we design and where we design.

00:40:59.739 --> 00:41:03.530
<v Paweł Woelke>So the only difference yes, so everything you said makes perfect sense.

00:41:03.530 --> 00:41:14.289
<v Paweł Woelke>The difference is that you contain the situation or prevent the fire spread or keep the temperature down with the sprinkler system if it's a solosically even hydrocarbon fire.

00:41:14.289 --> 00:41:16.780
<v Paweł Woelke>Four first responders arrived here.

00:41:16.780 --> 00:41:23.333
<v Paweł Woelke>The first responders arrive and they don't have any active fire suppressing that would put the battery out.

00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:27.199
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Ali, what's your take on this issue of suppression?

00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:28.063
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>How do you view it?

00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:49.039
<v Ali Ashrafi>I mean, I would reiterate what Pavel said we do have a layered approach, right, and so each of these layers, if it doesn't fully contain the risk, but if it mitigates these consequences, it's still part of the solution, right, and so, when you look at that, if you can keep the temperature lower, that could be part of the solution.

00:41:49.159 --> 00:42:04.407
<v Ali Ashrafi>If you can slow down the propagation of fire from one set of energy storage devices whether it's vehicles or something else to the next, that is part of containing and managing the consequences, right, so it certainly fits that.

00:42:04.407 --> 00:42:18.478
<v Ali Ashrafi>It's just good to remember that here we are dealing with a context where, once you've released some of those gases, if they haven't burned, those gases are still available and can later potentially be involved in an explosion.

00:42:18.478 --> 00:42:27.849
<v Ali Ashrafi>Right, you have a mixture of gases that includes, usually a lot of hydrogen, which expands the range of flammability, and so it's not just about putting out the fire.

00:42:27.849 --> 00:42:32.659
<v Ali Ashrafi>You might still have all these gases that are there, not uncommon in standard fires too right?

00:42:32.659 --> 00:42:42.634
<v Ali Ashrafi>Sometimes you have what you call like a back draft, right, but here it's more of a challenge because you have a lot of hydrogen in the mix too, which expands that explosion limit.

00:42:42.940 --> 00:42:45.885
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I'm also thinking, you know, from an engineer's perspective.

00:42:45.885 --> 00:42:50.706
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If I was designing a car park, I had sprinklers in it.

00:42:50.706 --> 00:43:02.492
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>My role would be to make sure that the conditions when the firefighters arrive are good enough, because then they can handle, Like, is it feasible to assume they can handle in this scenario?

00:43:02.492 --> 00:43:12.650
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Like, should our design go beyond the fact that we only need to prepare the battlefields for firefighters, or should we go a bit further than usual?

00:43:12.650 --> 00:43:33.795
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Because it's not that I don't believe in the abilities of firefighters I mean, these guys are usually heroes and I fully believe they would do everything they can but it's technology and capabilities and other things allowing them to actually successfully intervene in this type of scenario and, just you know, take the responsibility out of the building under actions to provide safety.

00:43:33.795 --> 00:43:34.778
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You know, ongoing safety.

00:43:35.099 --> 00:43:38.659
<v Ali Ashrafi>Right, it is a much more challenging job for a firefighter right?

00:43:38.659 --> 00:43:54.112
<v Ali Ashrafi>I mean New York, so the fire department of New York is probably the leading place in terms of not only figuring out what to do on their own, but trying to educate everyone in this area, absolutely moving as fast as they could.

00:43:54.112 --> 00:43:56.204
<v Ali Ashrafi>It's just the nature of the beast.

00:43:56.204 --> 00:44:28.260
<v Ali Ashrafi>That is a very challenging problem and it's different from the type of fires that we have dealt with before from a firefighting perspective, right, and so when you're looking at designs, I think part of design should be there is less of a chance to just put down that fire quickly, and it might be that in many of these scenarios, the best the fire service could do would be to mitigate and control the fire to some larger area Right, and then that fire might burn for until it burns out, right.

00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:30.347
<v Ali Ashrafi>So it is a different problem.

00:44:30.347 --> 00:44:38.099
<v Ali Ashrafi>It doesn't mean it doesn't have a solution, but the solution has to be looked at in the context of a specific building, right?

00:44:38.099 --> 00:44:43.992
<v Ali Ashrafi>So just to give you an example, the last time I was here the focus was on firefighter safety.

00:44:43.992 --> 00:44:46.568
<v Ali Ashrafi>So let me look at it from that perspective.

00:44:46.568 --> 00:44:55.793
<v Ali Ashrafi>If you're going there and there's a fire and you've managed to move all the people out and away from where the risk is.

00:44:55.793 --> 00:45:01.831
<v Ali Ashrafi>It's much easier to have a much more defensive posture and try to just wait it out.

00:45:01.831 --> 00:45:04.800
<v Ali Ashrafi>Yeah, wait it out and make sure it doesn't spread to other places.

00:45:05.606 --> 00:45:06.960
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But that's where I struggle.

00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:17.952
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>What would the public do to fire service if the message that went into press was ah, the firefighters did nothing but looked at the fire for 10 hours?

00:45:18.139 --> 00:45:26.880
<v Ali Ashrafi>You know, I think the public generally understands the heroic job that fire service does and they make those judgments all the time, right?

00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:30.300
<v Ali Ashrafi>They go to a place and they need to see what's at risk.

00:45:30.300 --> 00:45:35.909
<v Ali Ashrafi>We cannot put fireman life at risk unnecessarily.

00:45:35.909 --> 00:45:39.594
<v Ali Ashrafi>If you can contain something and there's no major risks to life, right.

00:45:40.601 --> 00:45:58.615
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But yeah, I also mean that as a fact that perhaps unnecessary action would be required for firefighters Like is it okay to just take the vehicle outside of the building and controlably watch it used the reminding fuel and get to a safe state?

00:45:59.322 --> 00:46:00.286
<v Ali Ashrafi>I'm not talking about one car.

00:46:00.286 --> 00:46:09.646
<v Ali Ashrafi>Look, we're really not talking about one car, because the scenarios where one car somewhere is burning and you can move it or manage that, that's very manageable.

00:46:10.121 --> 00:46:15.413
<v Ali Ashrafi>We're really talking about situations where one of these things starts a fire, but you have propagation.

00:46:15.413 --> 00:46:36.242
<v Ali Ashrafi>That's the challenging problem, right, and part of the goal would be to make sure that we can come up with solutions, working with all the stakeholders, including the fire service, to make sure that, in the context of that building, we have a plan where you can quantify the risk, you can mitigate and manage the risk.

00:46:36.242 --> 00:46:50.130
<v Ali Ashrafi>You have a plan for what happens to people, because that fire is likely going to go on for some time and you want to move people away from the fire, and you have a plan where the fire service knows if I'm going into this building.

00:46:50.130 --> 00:46:56.572
<v Ali Ashrafi>This is a plan that gives me the maximum chance of protecting people and the life of fire service at the same time.

00:46:56.780 --> 00:47:04.074
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And in this discussion a few times we've mentioned that the new part of the hazard is an explosion hazard.

00:47:04.074 --> 00:47:09.373
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So how does that affect your fire engineering strategies?

00:47:09.373 --> 00:47:11.860
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Because now you're also an explosion engineer.

00:47:11.860 --> 00:47:17.211
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I'm not sure how many of fire engineers are routinely trained in dealing with that.

00:47:17.211 --> 00:47:27.288
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So to what extent this is an increased challenge for you, for your office, that suddenly this also isn't, and how big part of your assessment is actually is.

00:47:28.139 --> 00:47:32.871
<v Ali Ashrafi>It is a big part of it when we go and look at it again inside that dense urban area.

00:47:32.871 --> 00:47:36.088
<v Ali Ashrafi>I want to highlight it's in terms of the physics of it.

00:47:36.088 --> 00:47:37.271
<v Ali Ashrafi>It's nothing new, right?

00:47:37.271 --> 00:47:49.726
<v Ali Ashrafi>Meaning you have a mixture of gases, usually hydrogen and then some hydrocarbons, and we've dealt with them and explosion potentials with them for a long time, right, so we know how to do that.

00:47:49.726 --> 00:48:07.911
<v Ali Ashrafi>The challenge is the context here, again right, where you have a potential fire, you have the potential for explosion, and the solutions for those two things are not necessarily identical, meaning you have to quantify both of them and see what's the right solution for you.

00:48:07.911 --> 00:48:11.360
<v Ali Ashrafi>Part of that is how much of the gases are you trapping in that space?

00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:13.565
<v Ali Ashrafi>So Pavel mentioned ventilation.

00:48:13.565 --> 00:48:15.170
<v Ali Ashrafi>That's a big part of that.

00:48:15.170 --> 00:48:22.980
<v Ali Ashrafi>Can you move some of the things that are being produced from the space, or are you trapping a lot of those gases there, for example?

00:48:23.121 --> 00:48:23.282
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Right.

00:48:23.282 --> 00:48:35.219
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So actually the solutions could be almost contradictory, because for explosion you would like to have a relief surfaces, potentially openings to the exterior, and for fire you often would go into confinement.

00:48:35.219 --> 00:48:40.079
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You know fire resistance thick as hell walls, exactly opposite.

00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:41.947
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So that's a challenge for sure.

00:48:42.581 --> 00:48:43.565
<v Ali Ashrafi>You're absolutely right.

00:48:43.565 --> 00:48:45.847
<v Ali Ashrafi>That's why it's not a simple problem.

00:48:45.847 --> 00:48:46.882
<v Ali Ashrafi>Right, you're right.

00:48:46.882 --> 00:48:51.458
<v Ali Ashrafi>In simple fire cases inside the building, you compartmentalize.

00:48:51.458 --> 00:48:57.059
<v Ali Ashrafi>Right, you create barriers and slow down the spread and done For explosion.

00:48:57.059 --> 00:48:58.403
<v Ali Ashrafi>That's the worst thing you could do.

00:48:58.403 --> 00:49:01.724
<v Ali Ashrafi>Now you've created a confinement that makes the effect much larger.

00:49:01.724 --> 00:49:09.626
<v Ali Ashrafi>You want to allow the things to spread In the context of the building, where you have both of those risks present at the same time.

00:49:09.626 --> 00:49:15.987
<v Ali Ashrafi>Now you have to see what is the right solution that balances all the risks.

00:49:15.987 --> 00:49:19.864
<v Ali Ashrafi>There are elements of modeling both of those things.

00:49:19.864 --> 00:49:21.740
<v Ali Ashrafi>What does the fire look like?

00:49:21.740 --> 00:49:23.360
<v Ali Ashrafi>What does an explosion look like?

00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:28.507
<v Ali Ashrafi>It ties into how much room you have for gases to spread into.

00:49:28.507 --> 00:49:32.925
<v Ali Ashrafi>It ties into the function of your ventilation system.

00:49:32.925 --> 00:49:35.061
<v Ali Ashrafi>There are many things that go in there.

00:49:35.061 --> 00:49:37.503
<v Ali Ashrafi>We understand all the pieces.

00:49:37.503 --> 00:49:48.784
<v Ali Ashrafi>We can combine them and look at them together, but that's exactly why this is a unique kind of problem where we need to look at the right solution in the right context.

00:49:49.436 --> 00:49:49.956
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I'm thinking.

00:49:49.956 --> 00:49:55.527
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Is there an example of existing technology which we would approach in a similar manner?

00:49:55.527 --> 00:49:57.762
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I think transformers to some extent.

00:49:57.762 --> 00:50:10.864
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If you have high to medium or medium to low voltage transformers in your building large devices I guess it would be in many cases very similar approach, especially that it's also electricity arcing hazards.

00:50:10.864 --> 00:50:14.405
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Is arcing a hazard that you consider in these cases?

00:50:15.054 --> 00:50:32.940
<v Ali Ashrafi>I think it goes back to you have something that's going to cause the problem to start, but we're taking for granted that something goes wrong, that something goes wrong at a large enough scale where you have to deal with it, so the source of it could be anything.

00:50:32.940 --> 00:50:35.177
<v Ali Ashrafi>But back to your question.

00:50:35.177 --> 00:50:39.425
<v Ali Ashrafi>We've dealt with hydrogen safety for a long time in the context of energy.

00:50:39.425 --> 00:50:45.788
<v Ali Ashrafi>Usually it's just usually you're not doing it as close to a population center.

00:50:45.788 --> 00:50:50.567
<v Ali Ashrafi>So a lot of the physics of the problem are known and we've dealt with them.

00:50:50.567 --> 00:50:51.659
<v Ali Ashrafi>We have all the framework.

00:50:51.659 --> 00:50:59.465
<v Ali Ashrafi>It's just a question of you're applying the same tools of engineering and science, but you're designing safety in a different context.

00:51:00.135 --> 00:51:05.403
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I also think, a lot of auxiliary things around we can learn from, let's say, power plant industry.

00:51:05.403 --> 00:51:12.409
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>They've dealt with massive cables, transformers, fires of high consequences for years.

00:51:12.409 --> 00:51:19.827
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So we, as a fire engineers, we need to understand that we're not dealing with simple residential fires anymore.

00:51:19.827 --> 00:51:21.677
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's industrial.

00:51:21.677 --> 00:51:34.943
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Fires have entered the space and perhaps we should consider them like that, and what you and Paweł said in this interview are very close to what process industry would do protecting a chemical plant or power plant.

00:51:34.943 --> 00:51:37.603
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>This is the mindset that is used for ages.

00:51:37.603 --> 00:51:43.847
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's just not in our part of engineering buildings for residential use or car parks.

00:51:43.847 --> 00:51:47.885
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Okay, paweł, and what's your take to summarize the talk so far?

00:51:48.414 --> 00:51:51.222
<v Paweł Woelke>So, just to sort of close the loop on this.

00:51:51.222 --> 00:52:00.164
<v Paweł Woelke>I think that, despite the severity of the situation, or the severity of the scenario that we're talking about, we believe, based on everything that we've done, that the situation, the risk, is manageable.

00:52:00.164 --> 00:52:06.039
<v Paweł Woelke>There are solutions out there, and they require a pretty deep level of understanding of what you're dealing with.

00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:27.204
<v Paweł Woelke>So you have to start with characterization of the fire and potentially explosive event, as well as the toxicity, and then you have to implement the layered solution that addresses as many of the factors that potentially can be effective at stopping the chain of events or reducing its consequences, and then you can develop effective solutions to the problem.

00:52:27.655 --> 00:52:30.239
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Ali Paweł gave his final words.

00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:32.181
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>This is time for you.

00:52:32.181 --> 00:52:42.507
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So your final consideration for engineers who will be dealing with these new energy storage solutions in their projects.

00:52:42.875 --> 00:53:01.246
<v Ali Ashrafi>I just want to add, putting this again in the context of we are trying to deal with climate change, which is a large-scale, major risk to life in many aspects and also to the way we live as a society, and so any risks that we're dealing with here are balanced in that context.

00:53:01.246 --> 00:53:03.442
<v Ali Ashrafi>We don't want to overstate the risks.

00:53:03.442 --> 00:53:05.702
<v Ali Ashrafi>We don't want to understate the risks.

00:53:05.702 --> 00:53:25.643
<v Ali Ashrafi>Energy storage is a critical component of the fight against climate change, and lithium-ion batteries are the dominant technology in that space, at least at this point, and so we do have the tools of engineering and science to make sure that that technology is incorporated safely.

00:53:25.643 --> 00:53:36.307
<v Ali Ashrafi>We just need to make sure that those tools are used consistently so that, as we are expanding energy storage, it's done safely, and sustainably.

00:53:36.474 --> 00:53:39.143
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Okay, guys, I was a huge pleasure.

00:53:39.143 --> 00:53:44.507
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Thank you so much for sharing your insights and how to approach this problem.

00:53:44.507 --> 00:53:49.664
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Especially thanks for setting the context why are we doing this?

00:53:49.664 --> 00:53:51.994
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And the considerations that go through engineering.

00:53:51.994 --> 00:53:56.527
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So yeah, thank you so much and see you again in Far Science Show.

00:53:56.855 --> 00:54:01.106
<v Ali Ashrafi>Yeah, thank you for having us and congratulations on passing the 100th episode.

00:54:01.106 --> 00:54:04.501
<v Ali Ashrafi>I think you're doing tremendous service today in the industry Cheers.

00:54:04.521 --> 00:54:05.204
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Zala Well done.

00:54:05.364 --> 00:54:05.623
<v Ali Ashrafi>Thanks.

00:54:06.206 --> 00:54:07.148
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Thank you, cheers, bye.

00:54:07.148 --> 00:54:08.018
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And that's it.

00:54:08.018 --> 00:54:18.342
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>A lot of interesting thoughts and solid fire safety engineering with a strong emphasis on performance-based engineering, something I like and appreciate a lot.

00:54:18.342 --> 00:54:32.364
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>In this episode, I was kind of surprised at the take of the guys on how important the new fuel carriers are for the whole context of global warming and bigger goals that we have behind.

00:54:32.364 --> 00:54:50.108
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I always say as fire engineers, we need to appreciate more why people are doing things that they're doing, and once you start to place our solutions within the broader context, suddenly our solutions become better and more responsive to the needs of the other side.

00:54:50.108 --> 00:54:56.840
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So I certainly must appreciate this way of thinking that only in Paweł have presented in the podcast.

00:54:57.735 --> 00:55:01.184
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I hope you've learned something new in this episode.

00:55:01.184 --> 00:55:13.266
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I hope the approach to the engineering, the fire safety challenges of new energy carriers that guys presented was something that inspires you and perhaps you will find useful in your engineering.

00:55:13.266 --> 00:55:14.840
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I certainly will in mine.

00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:16.619
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So, yeah, thank you.

00:55:16.619 --> 00:55:22.867
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Thank you, paweł, thank you Ali, for this interesting discussion and looking forward to learn more from you.

00:55:22.867 --> 00:55:24.942
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And this is it for today's episode.

00:55:24.942 --> 00:55:30.606
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I really hope to meet you here again next Wednesday for the next episode of the Fire Science Show.

00:55:30.606 --> 00:55:32.056
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Thank you bye.

00:55:32.056 --> 00:55:45.637
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>This was the Fire Science Show.

00:55:45.637 --> 00:55:47.998
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Thank you for listening and see you soon.