The Last Unicorn with Hannah Eko

00:00:00
Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zephyn Beast, start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

00:00:16
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Last Podcast.

00:00:19
Speaker 3: If only right? What a sigh of relief.

00:00:23
Speaker 2: We're the last one.

00:00:25
Speaker 3: We're the final one. We did it.

00:00:27
Speaker 2: We're the only one left.

00:00:28
Speaker 3: That is okay, just spoilers for the movie right away. And if we released all the podcasts from the ocean, would that be a force of good? Is the question? It really depends. That's a lot of different kinds of unicorns. We're talking true, but we are. Yes, We're the last podcast. My name is Jamie Loftis.

00:00:51
Speaker 2: My name is Caitlin Dorante. This is the Bechdel Cast, our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test. Simply us a jumping off point a podcast unicorn. You could say, exactly and then whatever is the Bechdel test, Jamie.

00:01:10
Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you it is a media metric created by a unicorn in her own rights. The one and only Alison Bechdel in her old comic strip Di Likes to Watch Out For. It was a one off joke in the eighties that was meant to draw attention to the fact that there were no queer love stories between women on screen. It has since been adapted into a mainstream media metric. There's a lot of versions of this test. Our version of the test requires the following two characters with names of a marginalized gender speaking to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue. And I feel like the movie rere Covering Today is in conversation with the Bechdel the Bechdel Test, obviously the Bechdel cast in a very interesting way. Yeah, I have to say, like right out the jump and then we'll get our guests in here, because I'm very, very excited. There were so many lines in this movie that had me like flat on my back, where you're like, people are just saying things in this movie. It is so I think my favorite line that I could not have seen coming is when the guy who I thought was like Scottish or Irish coded right, invites Alan Ark and the Magician around the fire and offers him a taco and You're like, that is anyways, that's gonna be people surprise you all the time. That's and that's sort of what this movie is about. So let's true, let's get our guests in here.

00:02:43
Speaker 2: Yes, let's She is a writer Bookdula, founder of the Cannabis Literary event series The Lit Club, and author of the book Honey is the Knife. It's Hannah Echo. I'm welcome, Thank you for having me, thanks for being here.

00:03:00
Speaker 4: Yeah. I also remember that line, and I was like, huh, I'm like, maybe that's more explained than the book, Like maybe there's context that we we missed here because it was very I was like, maybe that was like an early eighties reference to something else.

00:03:14
Speaker 5: It's like a taco very could be. Yeah, No, I was eating tacos. I don't know. It's a mystery. I did write it down as well.

00:03:22
Speaker 2: The thing that really knocked me flat on my ass was the entire Butterfly song. Yes, it's just like, what are you saying?

00:03:30
Speaker 3: We don't know, sir, we don't know.

00:03:31
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a lot of riddles.

00:03:33
Speaker 4: Yes, the cats, the butterfly, the skeleton.

00:03:38
Speaker 2: Oh my god, skeleton, best characterleton.

00:03:40
Speaker 5: Yeah, so that seems to be a major motif.

00:03:44
Speaker 3: Yes, we are. I guess we should have said we're covering The Last Unicorn nineteen eighty two. However, we're so excited to have you on the show. This is like I I was so taken by this movie, and we want to know what your history with it is.

00:03:58
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I wrote about this some years ago.

00:04:02
Speaker 4: I immigrated to California when I was four years old, so I hadn't met my parents. Well, i'd been with my mom until seven months. Very typical of like I guess, first gen so Nigerian household. So I remember very distinctly like it was just such a such a journey from just like this cold England and then boom, I'm in California, LA. And my dad at the time, he and my uncle, they co owned a convenience store in La on Western twenty seventh and so we also rented videos.

00:04:39
Speaker 5: At the time, we.

00:04:40
Speaker 4: Had like a small section and there's also a small porn section and yeah, you know, so you know, learning many things as a child, and I remember very distinctly like the two movies that were like my like go to at the time. It was a Little Mermaid and it was a Last Unicorn, you know, and I look back, I I find it interesting what kids gravitate to naturally, Yeah, because not all kids feel the same way about all movies, and so I really do think that there is some kind of mystical resonance that these children are having because they're in their like receptive state. So for me, the Last UNQUI, I just loved it.

00:05:18
Speaker 5: I don't know if I had heard.

00:05:19
Speaker 4: Of unicorns before that point, but I very much remember just being really taken by this film. And around that time, or maybe sometime later, our store was like vandalized during the Rodney King riots, and I remember like the people end up coming in from the roof.

00:05:38
Speaker 5: It was like a big hole in the roof, and they stole a bunch of things.

00:05:41
Speaker 4: I think people some people unfortunately, were just using it as an excuse of course, to you know, do damage, and so they stole a lot of stuff in the store. And I remember as a kid, I couldn't say it out loud, but I was very happy because they didn't steal the last Unicorn. I think they took the Little Mermaid, you know, someone was like maybe took it from their daughter, I don't know, but they didn't take the last unicorn, and I remember just really feeling like very blessed for that. And then I also very much remember like I was so taken of unicorns, as many young girls are, and I asked my dad, I was like, are there actually unicorns?

00:06:15
Speaker 5: It just seemed very plausible to me, you know, a horse.

00:06:17
Speaker 4: Of a horn, and he's like, yeah, there are, but they live in Nigeria. And so for years I believe that they actually, like were real and they lived in Nigeria.

00:06:27
Speaker 5: So that's kind of my connection to it.

00:06:30
Speaker 4: I come back to it every so often in the movie, and it's very interesting when I find people who also have a connection to it, because it's a very, I feel like, millennial niche kind of thing.

00:06:42
Speaker 5: I feel there are certain things that only certain.

00:06:45
Speaker 4: People kind of were able to get caught into the web of and lasting a corners definitely want to go sing so asked by some of my history with the film beautiful, that's really beautiful.

00:06:57
Speaker 2: I like the two movies that really resonated with you as a kid are ones where a mythological creature gets turned into a mortal human.

00:07:06
Speaker 3: For a while, the eighties was all about that premise, it seems like, and in the fact that these two movies that I now love both, I hadn't seen The Last un To Cohen before, but that they handle that premise in such different ways. I think it's really beautiful.

00:07:25
Speaker 2: So, yeah, Jamie, what's your relationship if any with this.

00:07:29
Speaker 3: I had never seen it before. I don't think for any particular reason. I think just it might have I think this seems like a micro generational thing. I might have been a little bit too young to see this. I was really interested as like an animation history dork. This has a very interesting place and animation history, which I think is very cool, as does Peter Beegle, which is the author of who wrote the screenplay and the original book. Ana just has an awesome name. I don't know. I was really taken by. I like, how you know he I think wrote the screenplay for the Lord of the Rings adaptation that was done by the same group of animators. A lot of the animators from this movie go on to work for Studio Gibley. It's just really cool. I love Rank and Bass, and you can, like, I think, because I grew up watching the Rank and Bass holiday specials, you can hear certain voices and you're like, oh, it's Burger, Meister, Meister Burger, et cetera. Yeah, this movie, Like, I really loved it. It's so weird in a way that I really appreciated. I feel like I wasn't I don't know why I wasn't like super into fantasy after like middle school age. I think I went more like mystery route. But I really love the like fantasy convention that you meet a character and the character is so bizarre and then they're just gone. And that happens in this movie one hundred times and all of the characters. I was scratching my head. Respect You're like, okay, and now there's a tree with huge tits, and then ninety seconds later you're like, and for sure that's the last we see of the tree with huge tits, and it is, And like, I just I loved it. I had I had the best time, and I'm really excited to talk about it. Caitlin, what is your history with The Last Unicorn?

00:09:22
Speaker 2: I saw this movie in college during the Great Caitlyn Movie binge of two thousand and five. A friend of mine suggested it. I had this friend in college who introduced me to a lot of my what are now my favorite movies still to this day, such as Josie the Pussycats and American Psycho, and She's like the Last Unicorn, also rips we should watch it. So we did, and I wasn't as taken with it as I might have been if I had seen it when I was younger, perhaps, And I didn't remember really anything from it except I remember recognizing Jeff Bridge's voice because I was a fan of The Big Lebowski at the time and still and I was like, Hey, that's the dude like being this weird prince who doesn't seem to notice that his dad is pure evil.

00:10:18
Speaker 3: And then also that his dad is like, oh, by the way, that's not even my son anyway, So you're like what what? And then he's like, anyways, you're the last you at a cord.

00:10:27
Speaker 5: I know it.

00:10:28
Speaker 3: Like I just love this movie is so silly. I love it.

00:10:30
Speaker 2: It's so bizarre. But uh yeah, I hadn't retained much from the story, so watching it this time to prep for the episode, it was kind of like watching it for the first time. And it's a very interesting movie. I don't know what to make of a lot of it. I'm ready to be swayed. One way or the other. I have thoughts, but I'm just like, what is going on in so much of this? But yeah, I'm really excited to talk about it.

00:11:00
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.

00:11:01
Speaker 2: Should we take a quick break and then come back for the recap?

00:11:05
Speaker 3: Let's do it.

00:11:16
Speaker 2: Here is the recap of the Last Unicorn in nineteen eighty.

00:11:20
Speaker 3: Two, and Hannah feel free to jump in whenever I feel like there's just like, there's so much going on. Yeah, there's five thousand characters.

00:11:28
Speaker 4: There are, and I love it for That's also one thing I really do love about it is the it's very episodic. Y. Yeah, it's just like things are just happening, and I think that's very life true.

00:11:40
Speaker 5: I appreciate it.

00:11:41
Speaker 2: People coming and going.

00:11:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes you spend a night with a tree and you're like, who knows, who knows?

00:11:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes you're nestled in the bosom of a huge titty tree and you.

00:11:52
Speaker 5: Just tie to go with it and tied a rope, you know.

00:11:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty kinky, honestly, Yeah, No, it's a very kinky.

00:12:00
Speaker 3: Sure.

00:12:01
Speaker 4: If anyone watches this, I'm like, you're either probably into psychedelics, you're queer, or you're into kink.

00:12:06
Speaker 5: Probably all three.

00:12:07
Speaker 2: Probably all three.

00:12:08
Speaker 3: I think that about a lot of eighties fantasy, because I also associate that with like the never ending story. There's a bunch of like bizarro stuff going on, right, Like you're just I don't know, it's all it's all a little sexy eighties fantasy.

00:12:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, So here's the story. We see two hunters in a forest. They're talking about how a unicorn must live there because it's lush and green and beautiful and always springtime, and they speculate that this must be the last unicorn. Hey, that's the name of the movie in existence anywhere in the world. These hunters leave, not wanting to bother the unicorn who we meet, and her name is just sort of unicorn for most of the movie, and she's Mia Farrow and she's voice by Mea Farrow. She has overheard the hunters and wonders, am I really the last unicorn? Then a butterfly shows up and he sings one of the wackiest songs I've ever heard in a movie.

00:13:16
Speaker 3: I truly don't know if the songs in this movie are either amazing or horrible, And I truly don't know which, But I'm like, I was locked in, especially when we get to the Jeff Bridges character, who's like, his whole song is like I can't really read or write. You're just like, yeah, cool, exactly.

00:13:37
Speaker 5: This is probably the weakest song fortunately.

00:13:39
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:13:39
Speaker 3: It is a very hympo coded song where he's like, I don't know, I love you, I can't write a polm yeah.

00:13:47
Speaker 2: And then we have this Butterfly song, during which the butterfly calls this unicorn a pickle faced consumpt of Mary Jane. I was like, what are you talking about?

00:13:57
Speaker 3: My friend we just met.

00:13:58
Speaker 5: It's weird. It's true, it's weird.

00:14:03
Speaker 2: So the unicorn asks the butterfly if he has encountered any other unicorns on his travels, and the butterfly eventually reveals that a red bull has driven all of the other unicorns to the ends of the earth, but she can find them if she's brave.

00:14:22
Speaker 3: Was I the only I felt? I like, this is the coldest take of all. But like every time I heard whenever red Bull came up, I was like he he no, same, It's yeah.

00:14:32
Speaker 5: They didn't know, you know, but that's even something to talk about.

00:14:36
Speaker 4: Like, Okay, years later, we have this drink that a locks a very specific type of energy in people.

00:14:42
Speaker 3: It was like it brings out people's dark side all of a sudden. You want to entrap in the ocean. Yeah, you know.

00:14:48
Speaker 2: The joke I kept trying to make in my head was like, what if there's like a knockoff version of this movie and rather than the Red Bull, it's like the Monster energy drink.

00:14:58
Speaker 3: Because the diet rock star is holding all the unicorns hostage.

00:15:03
Speaker 2: Has driven all the unicorns into the sea. Anyway, Okay, so the unicorn, desperate to be with her people, sets off on a journey to find them. She first comes upon a farmer who mistakes her for a horse because men slash humans, or maybe specifically, men can't see unicorns for what they are because they can't see their horns. But the farmer still likes her and he wants he's trying to capture her, but she gets away and continues on. Then a traveling carnival finds the unicorn while she's sleeping on the side of the road.

00:15:44
Speaker 3: Incomes one of my favorite characters, Mommy.

00:15:49
Speaker 4: Here comes Mommy, Yes, Mommy, Fortuna yeah, Fortuna yeah, and her brothel.

00:15:58
Speaker 2: She's a wi or a hag or something voiced by Angela Lansbury killing it. She has a colleague. I don't know who this person is to her exactly, but this guy named Rook feels generous, and then a wizard named Schmndrick voiced by Alan Arkin. Are like the traveling Carnival and Mommy Fortuna abducts the unicorn.

00:16:25
Speaker 3: And she can see that it's a unicorn. I thought that that was interesting that there. It does seem to be like, yeah, there don't seem to be hard and fast rules, but it's mostly like men cannot see the beauty of the unicorn. Mommy, for Tuna can and chooses to exploit it.

00:16:41
Speaker 2: And you're, yeah, yes, because what she does for her carnival is puts spells on old and or wounded animals to create the illusion for spectators that they are looking at like a manticore or a dragon or some fantastical beast. But Schmendrick, the magician, can see the unicorn's horn and knows that she is in fact a unicorn, and he wants to help her escape. Now, Mummy Fortuna has also captured a real harpy, which I had to look up with this is I only knew harpy in sort of like the derogatory like woman context. Yeah, I didn't know that a harpy was a mythological creature.

00:17:30
Speaker 3: I don't think that they did. They usually have three titties, three spoobs.

00:17:34
Speaker 5: I don't know.

00:17:35
Speaker 2: I don't know, nor do I, but this one does. This one has three titties and they're out.

00:17:42
Speaker 3: I was, I was thrown. I was like, I'm with her now.

00:17:45
Speaker 2: Yes, a feminist icon. The harpy. The unicorn begs Mummy Fortuna to let her and the harpy go, but she refuses, so Schmendrick tries different spells to try to free the unicorn, but at this point he is a bit of a flop of a wizard, so none of his spells work. But he does have the keys, so he just unlocks her cage and the unicorn frees the other animals, including the harpie, who kills Mommy Fortuna.

00:18:17
Speaker 3: Oh incredible, amazing.

00:18:19
Speaker 5: It's such a good death. Yeah, arms wide.

00:18:22
Speaker 3: She died as she lived a drama queen like I was. Really, I was really rooting for the harpy to come back. But spoiler alert, I know this is the last we see he of her unfortunately, but I like how you framed that. Hannah's like, you know, that's life.

00:18:38
Speaker 2: People come and go true. So the Unicorn and Schmendrick escape together and they head toward someone named King Haggard in his fortress, who seems to be in cahoots with the Red Bull, and I also like that. Schmendrick is like, let me come with you, and she's like, ugh, I guess it.

00:19:03
Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:19:04
Speaker 3: They are sort of building like a Wizard of Oz style team if the like if Dorothy was like, if you must, if you must, if you must.

00:19:13
Speaker 1: Right.

00:19:14
Speaker 3: I love the Unicorn. She the things that many things I love about the Unicorn, but she never apologizes to really anybody unless she really means it. Sometimes people will be like, oh, I must have worried you or whatever. She's like, you did it.

00:19:29
Speaker 4: Oh, he was like, don't worry. She's like, don't worry about it. She's like I'm not yeah.

00:19:34
Speaker 5: Yes, okay, yeah, okay.

00:19:36
Speaker 3: I would have been leveled if I got a comment like that from the Unicorn, but Schmndrick takes it in stride.

00:19:42
Speaker 2: Yeah. Then Schmendrick and the Unicorn are separated when this guy named Captain Cully and his band of outlaws abduct Schmendrick. He does some magic for them. He like conjures Robin Hood and like a bunch of other and they're like, whoa, that's wild. But also Captain Kelly does not like it or something or he feels threatened.

00:20:07
Speaker 3: Captain Kelley famously of the have a Taco, Have a Taco fame, and it was like the saddest thing of all. I don't think Schmendrick ever got his taco.

00:20:17
Speaker 2: No, no, he didn't. Instead, he gets tied to a tree which comes to life. I think it's because Schmendrick does magic on the tree and then.

00:20:28
Speaker 3: It's not clear on that, not sure or with the purpose of that. But also I think maybe that foreshadows. Okay, here's my pitch, because Schmendrick's whole whenever he can get magic, he is like too horny with it. He just like conjures a hot lady. And so maybe that was foreshadowing. But that's what's gonna happen to our friend the Unicorn. Yeah, he gets too horny close to the tree.

00:20:55
Speaker 2: I'm like, was he trying to do something to free himself because he gets tied to this tree, right, and then he does magic. I think to try to escape, but it just turns the tree into this like sexy, big titty.

00:21:07
Speaker 3: Tree from New Orleans all of a sudden, and then there's no immortality but a tree's love. It's like, all right, cool whatever.

00:21:17
Speaker 2: Right, because the tree is like hubba, hubba, who's this? I love him? And then the Unicorn shows up to save him from this tree that's smothering him with her.

00:21:28
Speaker 3: Talk of boobs born sexy, yeah today today right now yeah.

00:21:34
Speaker 2: And then Captain Cully's his wife, Molly Grew Grew kind of links up with the unicorn and Schmndrick and confronts them in the woods and she's tearfully saying like where were you when I needed you? Where have all the unicorns gone? And she offers to go with them to find King Haggard's fortress.

00:21:58
Speaker 3: I was so thrilled that Molly returned, because I'd already adjusted to the idea of like, Okay, you see a character once and then they're gone. But I love that Molly. I just I really up to a point. At some point I f like her character. The plot kind of forgets about her. She starts defending men for no reason. But there's a chunk of the movie where she's she's just she's a girl's girl. She's a unicorn's girl, and I really appreciated.

00:22:25
Speaker 2: Her true and she also knows the right direction to go in. She's like, you guys are fools. You're going the wrong way. We have to go this way to the fortress. So they've set off again and they get pretty close to King Haggard's fortress, but then the red bull comes charging out and chasing the Unicorn, so Schmendrick uses his magic to turn her into a human so that the bull won't bother her.

00:22:53
Speaker 3: I'm now convinced that it's been established. The only time schmender can do magic, he's too horny with it. And this is how we end up with. Oh, this scene is like devastating, it's really beautiful.

00:23:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, he turns her into a human woman who is naked because he's so horny with his magic. Yeah, and both the Unicorn and Molly Grew are like, what the heck have you done, Schmendrick? Why'd you turn her into human? The Unicorn hates her new human body, but Schmendrick is like, don't worry, It's fine. This is our only hope of getting you close to King Haggard. And then he names her Amalthea and the three of them arrive at the fortress and have a meeting with the sinister King Haggard, who is voiced by Christopher Lee, as well as his son prince Lear voiced by The Dude aka Jeff Bridges, and the three of them kind of move into the castle Shamandrek is like, I'll be your wizard, Molly Grew will be the cook.

00:24:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, Molly just has to start working. I was like, why can only a Malfia stay for free? It feels like there's there's a sinister classist looks based hierarchy going on here.

00:24:18
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then prince Lear takes a liking to Amalfia and he tries to show her how much of a hero he is, but.

00:24:30
Speaker 3: He's kind of like de Doy, like He's like, I couldn't decide how I felt about prince Lear. I spent a good chunk Once prince Lear entered. I became full body terrified that she was going to be a woman forever. She's gonna have to marry this guy whose only song is about how he can't write.

00:24:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, it almost gets there, but then everyone's like, that's a horrible ending to this story. Let's not do that, and they're like, okay, exactly, let's do something else. But yeah, he's trying to show her how much of a hero he is. Amalthia is like, oh, so you killed a dragon. That don't impress me much, and she is not into it. Also, this human body, it's no good for the unicorn, and she starts to kind of lose her sense of self and she starts to forget what she's even trying to do at this fortress. Meanwhile, there's a pirate cat.

00:25:27
Speaker 3: Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it, don't ask any questions, And of course he only speaks in riddles. Don't worry about it.

00:25:33
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes. He knows that Amalthia is actually a unicorn, and he tells Molly Grew how to find the red Bull so that they can defeat it, except he doesn't tell them directly. He speaks in riddles.

00:25:46
Speaker 3: And this is when Molly Grew kind of enters her Defending Men story arc, where she's like, come on, date, prince like lear and you're like, why what at least, because I mean, I feel like the fear that you're seized by is like knowing how the Little Mermaid ends and knowing that she does choose to remain a person. But at least that movie had the decency to make Prince Eric hot and charismatic, which I would say is not something that Maybe not what I would say of Prince Lear necessarily he's a bit of a dud. I would not be changing species for him.

00:26:26
Speaker 2: No, But what I do like about this series of story beats is he's like, look how much of a man I am. Look at me besting ogres and slaying dragons and blah blah blah, and Amalthia is like, I don't give a single shit about that. And then he's like, Okay, I'll change my tactic. I'll write you a poem.

00:26:46
Speaker 3: And he's like, I don't any he's bad at it, But.

00:26:50
Speaker 2: That works for her. She's like, oh, you're you're, you know, expressing your feelings and thoughts with your words and and showing affection and clearly communicating with me. That works for me, not you slaying a bunch of dragons and shit. So I do like that.

00:27:07
Speaker 3: I'm not I'm not into it. I'm not into it. I'm like, we gotta we gotta raise the bar. We gotta raise the bar.

00:27:14
Speaker 5: Yeah, maybe we can't.

00:27:17
Speaker 3: We can't be I mean, look, this happens all the time, but marrying the first person who manages to sort of effectively communicate, it's like, we come on, keep it coming.

00:27:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I don't disagree, but.

00:27:29
Speaker 3: I but I for the time, especially because this comes out well before the Disney Princess Renaissance, where we have very little of that. Yeah it is. It is cool to see.

00:27:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the poem works on her and she likes him now, and then they kiss and they're also singing a song at each other and the song is not very good. Then King Haggard approaches Amalthea to be like, I know what you are. You should join the other unicorns that I have cast into the sea.

00:28:00
Speaker 6: I love this scene because she's like, oh funny, lol, no, I'm not a unicorn, but also, oh my god, what the fuck did you do?

00:28:11
Speaker 3: And he's like, by the way, he's not my son. Also I did this, and then he says, don't make fun of me, Like, what the hell is this? I loved it.

00:28:21
Speaker 2: It was hilarious. Then Amalthea, Schmendrick, and Molly Grew begin to follow the Cat's riddle, starting with talking to a skeleton who is a whino. He is, I don't know what's going on with him, but I love the skeleton.

00:28:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, couldn't couldn't have loved him more he could me. It sounded like Nathan Lane maybe wasn't available, but like that was what the performance was.

00:28:50
Speaker 2: I had the same thought.

00:28:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, Renee ab oh he's odo on Deep Space nine. Okay, that actually helps if you're a stark head, which Peter Beagle was. He wrote an episode of Star Trek TNG in the nineties. Very cool.

00:29:08
Speaker 2: Okay, So they're talking to the Skelington and he tells them that they need to walk through this big clock. So they do, but then he narcs on them, the skeleton does, and King Haggard starts chasing them. Prince Lear shows up to be like, hey, I'm Aalthia. I love you. Where are you going? Were you gonna leave me? And she's like no, I love you too. Actually, I don't even want to turn back into a unicorn anymore. I'll just stay a human and be with you. Prince Lear and then everyone else is like, what the fuck, don't do that. We have to stay We're on a quest to save the unicorns, let's keep going.

00:29:51
Speaker 3: I appreciate that. I mean, I know there's a lot of ways to view that, but I really thought that was a very effective story beat where it's like she has lost faith herself and it almost seems like, let me stay with what's easier and more comfortable.

00:30:05
Speaker 4: And then are good friends like now they're likeicorn.

00:30:10
Speaker 3: Even Prince Dude is like, because that would be, you know, probably what would have made him more happy. But he's like, no, it's not it's not how it goes. We got to get the Red Bull.

00:30:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, we gotta get their head, gotta get the the monster energy drink. Then the Red Bull, speaking of shows up and starts chasing them. Schmendrick turns Amalthea back into a unicorn, and I'm not totally sure why he does this in this exact moment, but now the Red Bull is chasing her even harder. Prince Lear is like, well, I'm a hero, remember, so I'll help, but then he gets knocked out immediately. I loved that. Then the unicorn decides to fight back against the Red Bull, and this seems to empower the other unicorns who had been trapped in the sea to re emerge.

00:31:02
Speaker 3: What a beautiful shot. I loved it.

00:31:05
Speaker 2: And then the Red Bull is defeated. The unicorns escape from the water to their freedom, all while King Haggard's fortress crumbles to the ground, and I'm like, okay, a fantasy movie where Christopher Lee plays an evil man with a long white beard who lives in a sinister looking tower, who is defeated at the end of the story. What is this Lord of the Rings the Two Towers?

00:31:30
Speaker 3: WHOA, yeah, it's true, it's true. I do like that. There's like a single shot of Prince Lear looking at where the castle crumbles and like, I don't know what is intended, but my head canon, he's like, well, well, I gotta find a new place to live. All my stuff it's gone.

00:31:51
Speaker 2: Yep, And then Prince Lear says goodbye to the others. The d new mall if you will, is that Schmndrick is a true wizard. Now, Molly Grew is like, well, I'll just hang out with him because I left my husband nothing for Molly Grew like, yeah, okay, what the hell is her arc nothing.

00:32:15
Speaker 3: The unicorn doesn't even say goodbye. The unicorn like she doesn't. She doesn't do things to be nice. She does what she needs to. Because Molly Grew's whole introduction is like, you haven't visited me since I was a girl. I'm so sad. The unicorn leaves without saying goodbye.

00:32:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, she just fucks off. But because she has lived life as a mortal human for a while, the unicorn understands feelings like love and regret, and she is grateful for that. And she's also grateful that the other unicorns have been liberated so that they can freely roam the world again. And then the movie ends with the not the last Unicorn anymore, just a unicorn returning home to her forest.

00:33:05
Speaker 3: The and beautiful.

00:33:08
Speaker 5: Yeah, so that's the story.

00:33:09
Speaker 2: Let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss. And we're back, Hannah, what's sticking out to you?

00:33:26
Speaker 3: Where would you like to start?

00:33:28
Speaker 4: There's so much, you know, I was like thinking, of course, of the queer subtext, because there's so much I'm not sure about the author, Like, I feel like fantasy is a very interesting genre and that it really is actively plumbing, like the universal like unconsciousness, you know, and archetypes. So what people are bringing in and what you bring to it?

00:33:52
Speaker 5: So whatever?

00:33:53
Speaker 4: I wonder what As a child I was like so attracted to and then as an adult I was like, you know, immediately my mind goes, okay, what do uniform unicorns signify? That they are typically like they are these creatures that only appear to virginal young women, which of course is a patriarchal myth, but there is something beautiful about that. They're very untouched. They're very like, you know, there is this lore around like men cannot see them, and that's why Molly grew so angry. She's like, I miss my chance. So I just I love that. I love that motif of who can see the unicorn. Of course, my mind immediately goes to like bisexual women. I was like, okay, what about this is like I got bisexual woman. And the thing that always caught me though, is like when she thinks she's like I might a last I'm like, girl, you're in a forest by yourself, like did you not notice.

00:34:49
Speaker 5: You neither know the unicorns around you?

00:34:51
Speaker 4: Like that was also low weird to me, but yeah, I felt like I started. Once the unicorn thing stuck, I was like, okay, it's a bi sexual story is about and enlightened bisexual tried to find and I was like, oh, the different people were like I know what you are, and then the men who are like, no, you're just this, you know, like that, there's something that felt very real about that, and even like she's kind of in this like menage TOOI with Mendrick and Molly grew, you know, and how he's like, you know, you brought up like the horny magic. There's so many places to go, but like the there's definitely something about the sexual, like he's constantly doing stuff around the sex, and it's like he's coming. He's like going from like a submissive soft boy is not using his full power to someone who's empowered in that magic. So yeah, there's so many places I don't know.

00:35:48
Speaker 2: I mean, well, yeah, since Schmendrick can see the unicorn for what she is, and he is a man or at least is coded that way.

00:35:59
Speaker 3: Maybe it's it's.

00:36:00
Speaker 2: Just because he has magic the way that a lot of these other men don't, but he can see her, so like, what does that say about him? We don't have to answer that question right now, but just a thought.

00:36:11
Speaker 3: I love how open it is though I really enjoyed. I mean, we talked about this many many many moons ago when we covered The Little Mermaid of how there is you know, a queer reading of The Little Mermaid as well, and I feel like that I don't know, these stories are so entwined and it's like we don't really know what the intention is, but it doesn't really matter. Like and I found this letterboxed legend. Sally Jane Black, who writes a lot about queer and trans representation in movies, reviewed this movie and sort of said we can get in the description but said something similar that I feel like, is you know, connected to why we talk about the Bechdel Test in the first place, Where the themes in this movie really resonated with a lot of people and a lot of kids, but a lot of queer and trans kids as well, and how like when you watch the movie, I mean, it makes total sense. And also that there was not other representation present in media, and how this movie really appealed to Sally Jane Black as a kid, because you know, she feel like she was seeing that kind of discomfort and frustration expressed in other children's media and was really drawn to it. So I've there's a lot that's been written about this movie, and I mean everyone's perspective on it. I don't know, it's just that's like what's great about fantasy is it's so open that like you can you can find yourself in one of these characters.

00:37:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, I find myself in this skeleton.

00:37:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Whyo skeleton. I really I really appreciated Molly Grew. I think it was like just that her introduction, I mean, the unicorn. Obviously we were all trying to be the unicorn. But I do think I'm more of a Molly crew type, but like her, I don't know that like an adult woman's like sadness and frustration and feeling like something is passed her by and like, but then also wanting to be a part of the Unicorn's life and to help her however she can. I really appreciated how how quickly I guess both of like both Molly and Schmndrick just totally bailed on their previous communities that weren't serving them and they're like, yeah, no, I'm going unicorn mode. Like Molly in particular because it seems like she's maybe lived with these like guys eating tacos her whole life, and she's just like see, like she emerges from behind a tree, She's like, yeah, they were chasing a ghost, like I was, I'm gonna I'm gonna chase a unicorn. I just the friendship was and it could have gone so many I don't know, like I appreciate how how much this movie sort of pushes back on Like I guess what I think of is like recognizable like Disney fairy tale style tropes. It's more complex than that.

00:39:12
Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure.

00:39:13
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is definitely for the child who you know is already like you were saying, like kind of feeling like left out. There is something like I just think there's there's a lot of children, whether it's queerness or neurodivergence or whatever it is, where you're not quite there's something that you're not like, there's like a gap here that I'm not quite getting, you know, And I think kids know who they are and so they start you start to pick that up. And I think these kind of tales like really appeal to that feeling and appeal to you finding your people and it's just also like oh, it's like a struggling magician who you know, he's.

00:39:54
Speaker 5: Trying, but it's not happening.

00:39:55
Speaker 4: Mommy Fortuna is like not a great boss, right, She's like I llegal like said, I was like, this is like sex trafficking, right, Like.

00:40:02
Speaker 2: She's she's a trafficker.

00:40:04
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:40:04
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like she's just like yeah, and then with the heartbeat, which she's like, I know you're gonna kill me one day, like I know, but I'll be immortal too, because I'll you.

00:40:15
Speaker 2: Know, I'm leaving a legacy.

00:40:17
Speaker 5: I'll be the only one. Yeah.

00:40:18
Speaker 4: And I was like that's such an interesting and I like that. It was like it wasn't her femininity, right, She's still evil, right.

00:40:25
Speaker 5: Unfortunately she's a witch, I got, which.

00:40:27
Speaker 4: We could have had a context for a positive, more witch representation, but I appreciated that a lot.

00:40:34
Speaker 2: I was trying to figure out what to make of Mommy for Tuna, because she is like very classic hag tropes are applied to this character and she's exploiting like all the creatures around her, and I was like, Okay, I guess you could read this as like a woman who's not an ally to other women, And if we kind of consider the unicorn and the Harpie as like women codd characters, because there are many women like that, and she is perfectly willing to exploit other women. So I'm just like, maybe that's what they're trying to do. I don't know, again, was this intentional? Did Peter s Beagle have a strong understanding of these things?

00:41:25
Speaker 3: I don't know. Peters speaking of Peter S Beagle because he is he's quite old now, he's in his eighties, but he is still alive with us and logged in and in fact, just an hour ago as we're recording this, posted a picture of the giant titty tree, so he's still locked in. He captions it. The trees know how to let go beautifully. Maybe we can too. And it is just as still of the magician motor boating the tree. But whatever, based on what I because I read it, I read a number of interviews with Peters Biegel, I mean, he's definitely an ally. I think he keeps his own his business, his business, but he has posted an I mean he posts for Pride month every month. He's a very vocal supporter of his queer fans and also just very I don't know, I feel like fantasy novelists are like uniquely good with like interacting with their fan base as well, because I think about how much like George R. R. Martin comes to mind immediately of just like someone who very openly interacts with his fans and all that. But Peter Biegle, he from from what I can see, he seems to be like a very lovely person who who almost like doesn't really offer a lot of explanations on the various interpretations of his work, unlike some perhaps evil fantasy writers out there.

00:42:54
Speaker 2: Oh turfy transphobic ones.

00:42:56
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, But I appreciated in like going through these interviews with him that he's like, it means whatever you think it means, you know, like, and because that's like, you know, being a fantasy writer, being especially a writer who's writing for children, it's like you're not going to tell a kid what it means. I really appreciated his sort of outlook on that because this was a book that was published in the sixties and then yeah, it was published in sixty eight and then was later adapted by It was so interesting if this was almost adapted by the animation company that did the Peanuts television specials and then jumped over to Rank and Bass, who are all over the place. I don't like rank it. I don't really understand what what would make Rank and Bass do something versus not do it because it's so all over the place. But I really loved it. I don't know.

00:43:48
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then just a few years ago, in twenty twenty three, Peter Beegele published I think It's two novellas that take place in this world as the last Unicorn called the Way Home, so he like revisited this world. I think a lot of the same characters make appearances, particularly Schmendrick, molly Grew, and I think Prince Lear are in these two novellas. I don't know much beyond that, but listeners, if you like this world and you like these characters, those books might be worth checking out.

00:44:27
Speaker 3: I can't get over that he posted the Titty Tree an hour ago, Like what a way to find out someone is still alive?

00:44:36
Speaker 5: It's like still kicking.

00:44:38
Speaker 3: That is so funny, amazing.

00:44:40
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that scene, you know, was very again like I feel like subcoded, you know, I mean, just like it reminded me of I'm a big like wonder Woman fan William Moulton Marston is a creator a wonder Woman, and he actually during his lifetime he had my two wives. They all lived like in the same house, and he was in a very interesting relationship of like feminine empowerment and like when you see like a wonder room of like the lasso and she's always getting like tied up. It's like very kink coded. And it's the point where his like bosses, like the comic book were like, you need to stop, like it's getting out of hand.

00:45:17
Speaker 5: We get what you're doing. No one's fooled.

00:45:20
Speaker 4: So there is something to be said about Like again, I just couldn't Like God, I was like once I had the bisexual thing, I was like, I'm gonna go with it.

00:45:28
Speaker 5: I'm like, she is a bisexual.

00:45:31
Speaker 4: And there's even this part where prince Lear like I also love to see like what people's desire, like how they interacted with her, right, So it's like Schremendrick is like, you're gonna give me a chance to prove my magic. Molly Grew has like her coming her late coming of age. Prince Lear kind of wants to possess her, is in love with her, but also isn't gonna sell what she is. King Haggard definitely wants to possess her, and she's like her into the ocean.

00:46:01
Speaker 5: And I was like, oh, this is a very.

00:46:03
Speaker 4: Interesting relationship to bisexuality, and I think it mirrors the life. And there's a point where he says, Prince Larry's like he actually says the word mermaid. He's like unicorn, mermaid sorceress. I love who I love, Yeah, you know. And I thought that that was very telling about her own journey and what.

00:46:24
Speaker 5: She had to like his. That was like kind of his.

00:46:29
Speaker 2: Bisexual awakening pan sexual awakenings.

00:46:32
Speaker 5: I think so, I think so so.

00:46:34
Speaker 4: I just I love that she was just this mirror to other people's stuff, you know.

00:46:40
Speaker 3: And that she didn't I that's so beautifully. But I really I don't know this damn unicorn. She like she she is like this mirror to the people who she meets along the way, but doesn't like submit to anyone's vision of who she is, which is part of why I think it's so cool when you know, Prince Dude, Prince Lear and and Schmandrick and Mollie all say like, no, you can't just stay a human now you need to like finish your journey, because they wouldn't have been able to do that if they hadn't met her. And I like that they had an like a vested interest in being like, now you need to, you know, go on your journey and be who you are. And yeah, that that moment where prince Lear just accepts her and it's like whoever, it doesn't it doesn't matter, So he has his awakening, And I just love that this movie offers kind of a non prescriptive version of what love looks like, where it does still feel like it is a love story between the Unicorn and prince Lear, but you know, they can't beat together, but they love each other. And you know, again it's like I adore the Little Mermaid and always will. But that's like if we're we're holding the two aside each other. The Disney version of The Little Mermaid, obviously not the original version, ends in this very you know, kind of prescriptive cis normative version of love and happiness, and the last Unicorn goes a completely different direction and it's like really affecting.

00:48:21
Speaker 4: Yeah, it kind of goes in like a Pocahontas direction where it's like you know, like the male character, he's going to be changed by his interaction, but he never gets to possess, you know. And because she would have been changed, right, and she's like she sings that whole probably one of the weakest songs honestly, Now I'm a woman, Yeah, because I love the America like songs Man's Road and the Last Unicorn Y, I like, it's just and it's just I find it beautiful, you know, And it's definitely a good like workout if you want to kind of you know, run and feel like you're openings like this new vistas amazing, Like.

00:49:07
Speaker 3: You are you become the unicorn?

00:49:09
Speaker 5: Yeah, you really do.

00:49:11
Speaker 4: And it's like how he talks about the unicorn, like, oh, she's kind of worn, but she's still there. But yeah, I found I felt like they had a They're also blonde men, which is interesting. So yeah, blonde men who are kind of sheltered in their worldview who have this like entry interaction with a feminine aspect which is outside of their understanding of what life is, and then they are changed. But then it's also like, but you're not going to get to be together, right and her also like from a unicorn to a woman and then her immediately hating her, you know, her immediately being like oh my god, I can feel this and dying like I don't want to.

00:49:59
Speaker 5: Be this, you know.

00:50:00
Speaker 4: And Molly grew also really understood that moment, like that was a very telling moment. I don't think I understood the significance of as a child is really what the movie is saying about immortality and what it's saying about archetypes of energy, and so like, there's that part we talked about the hearpbee, the three breasted half woman, half bird.

00:50:22
Speaker 5: But when she's like, you we pop to the same magic. We're two sides of the same. And I was like, oh yeah.

00:50:27
Speaker 4: It's like you have the unicorn, who kind of represents the virginal, untouched, mystical female, and then you have like the heartbee, right, who is like you put a heartpee anywhere. She's gonna ruin some shit.

00:50:41
Speaker 6: Right.

00:50:42
Speaker 5: She even tries to kill a unicorn at one point. She was like you just read her.

00:50:46
Speaker 4: Yeah, So it's like, but they're the same. She's like, we're the same. And even the unicorn is like I have to free her. I can't let her let this energy be caged, you know, And I thought that that was also interesting, is that she wasn't incompetent Titian. She didn't name her as evil. She was like, she too deserves to be free in this world.

00:51:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just yeah, the Unicorn's approach to I feel like I've not really seen a lot of movies in general, but like especially children's movies that have a character that is quite like her, where I'm like, maybe this is just how I'm trained to view I don't know, like protagonists of children's movies or like women and children as they're presented in media in general. But like I was always very pleasantly surprised. I guess when the Unicorn, you know, with the Harpy example of like she respects and sees the Harpy, but doesn't feel that she owes her anything. And it's not like they have to, you know, they're they're all going to oz or where, you know, like the idea that like they meet, they see each other, they have a strong respect and understanding of each other, and then they can move on. It's just it's like not something I've seen very often.

00:52:03
Speaker 5: Ever.

00:52:03
Speaker 3: I feel like, yeah, there is this feeling that every character you meet you, You're like, okay, now I will you know, we have to take care of each other now or whatever it is. But it's just this very I don't know, it almost feels like a religious figure that we get in the Unicorn where she just releases you know, the creatures that she encounters. And then there's other characters that I'm like, what's going on with the pirate cat. I don't know.

00:52:29
Speaker 2: I wouldn't know a thing about that. I liked it.

00:52:31
Speaker 5: I liked it.

00:52:33
Speaker 3: I was like, I'm not complaining, No.

00:52:35
Speaker 5: I do believe.

00:52:37
Speaker 4: I think fantasy is very makes its home with that and that again it can have that feeling of like West the Western canon is very like you know Hero's Journey, right, It's a set of initiation points really, that's all it is, and then you move to the end. But I did appreciate that, Like again, I find this semmic life that sometimes you meet these very strange characters in your life and you know, sometimes you're like, I'm never going to talk to this person ever again.

00:53:06
Speaker 5: But they will.

00:53:07
Speaker 4: How you'll think about them like years later, you know, maybe for the rest of your life about this thing, like they just almost gave you this Jewel, and I feel like fantasy is really a good place to deal with that, like the randomness of life, the magic of life. I also love Schmendrick's journey because I think it really is about like becoming more in control of.

00:53:28
Speaker 5: Your sex magic.

00:53:30
Speaker 4: You know, at first, he's like magic, do as you will, and it's like, that's not a good spell.

00:53:36
Speaker 5: You know you're going to need to bring.

00:53:38
Speaker 2: Need to be more specific, perhaps, yeah.

00:53:40
Speaker 4: More specific and be more grounded. And he gets better over time, you know, Like there's just there's just so much happening with their journeys and with like what magic means. I think what struck me that when I first wrote about it a couple of years ago, was Molly grew about the midlife awakening that we don't really talk about, and I wish that she got a better arc.

00:54:06
Speaker 5: Yeah, when I watched it again, I was like, Yeah, she kind of just like.

00:54:09
Speaker 4: Cleans and gives little tidbits, but there's really no change.

00:54:13
Speaker 5: I'm like, what would her arc be, Like, what would her new like?

00:54:19
Speaker 4: She's clearly like she has been changed from this experience, but what does she change into?

00:54:24
Speaker 5: Like?

00:54:25
Speaker 4: Was that just too much for the creators of this film to like hold, you know, because everyone else has a very marked arc except for her.

00:54:36
Speaker 2: To the extent where Peter Beegle admits that he like forgot question mark or just like didn't bother with writing much of a like detailed background for that character, and how he was grateful that the voice actor Tammy Grimes, who voices Molly Grew, brought life to the character on screen, because he's like, whoops, I've kind of forgot to you know, give her any characterization in the story. So the author acknowledged that she's but I think she's a character who we can easily identify with, and I do wish that there was more context given to like what compels her to leave her husband and go on this journey. We can you know, make assumptions, but I feel like there could have been more just more writing around that, and then like I would have liked to see more about like, Okay, well, what does she what is she longing for that maybe gets fulfilled by the end of the story or something.

00:55:42
Speaker 3: But yeah, I would also, I mean, I just wanted a place for her to land more than anything where it's like like you're saying, like schmndrick, like there is a clear end to everyone's arc, but we don't really know. I mean, she if what she all she wanted was to reconnect with this unicorn, and like the if in this context, the unicorn represents like innocence in childhood and like feeling this feeling of infinite possibility. She's made that connection. But but she doesn't even get a goodbye, like it's and we don't really know, like where does she go from here? We know that she's liberated herself from it seems like this, you know, bunch of losers she was spending her life with, which is like a reward in itself, and it's like I almost I don't know, Yeah, like I just I think if we just knew a little bit more about her, But I was. I was also very like touched by the performance and frustrated. I think once once she gets to the castle, she just sort of is like, I like the prince, you're being mean to the prince. Stop yelling at schmndrick. And I was like, wait, but this is your girl, Like come on.

00:56:52
Speaker 2: I do appreciate that she is I would say more active than Amalthea in the back half of the at least because she's I don't even know if she seeks that cat out, but the cat's there, and she's like, okay, well where do I find the red Bull? And he gives his little riddle, and then it's Molly who is like, okay, we got to go find the red bull? Like what are we doing here? Even so, I appreciate that at least she is given some agency and is able to make some active choices that propel the story forward in a way that I'm not even sure they would have been propelled forward if left to like Amalthea's devices, because she's just like, well, I guess I'm content to stay here with Prince Lear, who I love now, I guess. And I want to talk more about that too, because someone mentioned earlier about like, well, it's that sort of metaphorical for a woman who's sort of agency has been stripped from her and is kind of on the brink of giving up, or like what does that mean? Why does she? Why is she content to sort of abandon her journey of finding the other unicorns and finding her people and just being content to live as a mortal human with this guy who she just met, who doesn't know how to really identify with her.

00:58:22
Speaker 3: I had a feeling about that that I don't know, maybe it's again like being overly forgiving of what could have been a story plot. But that's like right where that's the moment where either you're like, Okay, this is the moment where it becomes the Little Mermaid, or it doesn't, like Disney's The Little Mermaid and it doesn't. I really, I don't know. It's not my favorite story beat. But I almost like interpreted that moment of her. It was like a fear based decision, like she was I don't know whatever, two things being true at once. She does really love and care for Prince Lear, and staying in this form with him is the easy choice in this moment. It's the choice that allows her to not go through the difficult process of understanding who she really is and not confront the big bad and you know, not do all these things that are important to do but also terrifying. And I don't know, I kind of not liked it, but like I feel like that that was how I read it, and that her friends who she you know, who had found themselves by knowing her, were like, no, you need to give this to yourself and we support you like whoever you know, however this ends, we support you when we love you. So I kind of liked that the story built up that chance for her to have a moment of fear and weakness and be supported anyways.

00:59:49
Speaker 4: True, yeah, because she was like deeply unmored by her transformation. Yeah you know, and I think like like any transformation, you start to sometimes forget like who you are and what your purpose is, and you know, you do the easier thing, You do the thing that is most accessible in that moment. And it's also like both like a trope wise, right, like okay, just have her be rescued by this prince and live happily ever after in the castle, and it's like all written for you, right, you have to take a very different types of action, like even when you know the I think it's molly gru at the point, it's like you can fight back, like you don't have to just like take what the red bull is doing. And I also felt like there again, I always I kept on because of the bisexual thing. It was just like very much there, like don't forget your other bisexuals. You know, this is not just you. This is also like when you remember who you are. You're helping these like other bisexuals be free from this place that they've been placed in. And I also thought King Haggard was very interesting in his like reasoning. He was just like, yeah, they're like the only thing that makes me happy.

01:01:02
Speaker 7: You know. And I felt like a young in spite of my old age.

01:01:06
Speaker 4: And I'm like, oh, that's what men say when they want to sexually harass like a very younger woman, like, oh, she made me feel young, you know. And it's this vicarious like he's leeching this energy from this place. But he can't, of course let them be free. He has to cage them in some way. They have to be under his control.

01:01:27
Speaker 7: And he knows what.

01:01:28
Speaker 4: She is like at first, he's kind of like I don't know when she first comes to the castle. But then he's like, you betrayed yourself with the way you move and you do this and you do that. So yeah, I was just like, yeah, this is this is very there is to me, like a very potent like sexual energy. And then what happens is like, you know, he falls to his death, you know, and we're all happy for it.

01:01:53
Speaker 7: Yeah, So I yeah, I just I.

01:01:55
Speaker 4: Still very much like appreciate what it's saying. And I think that it's it's doing something very complex like that kids may not understand, but it's laying the groundwork for like the Pocahontas the Moana, right, like kind of like the Disney spaces where it's not just you end up with the dude. Right, those are the two that I can really see that that happened in and I don't think that's an accident.

01:02:23
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, to go back to the Unicorns transformation too. In the story, her transformation is like thrust upon her. It's Schmendrick being like, oh my god, I have to do something to save her. I'll turn her into a human so that the Red Bull doesn't care to be bothered with her versus again, if we're going to compare this to the Little Mermaid, Ariel seeks out her own transformation. She goes to Ursula. She says, I want to be a human. Her motive is you know, questionable, but also you know, she she has the agency. She's like, I want something, I'm going to go for it, and I even if it is to she's sixteen, it is that she wants to be with this man who she saw one time, but again she's a teenager. The point is she seeks out her own transformation versus in the last Unicorn. Again, that transformation to human form and like being a mortal is thrust upon a Mauthea slash the unicorn, and it starts to destroy her again. She's like losing her memory, she's losing her sense of self. I feel like you could read that possibly as like, you know, whatever gender roles or rigid expectations that a patriarchal society thrusts upon women and everyone, but how it like tears you down and breaks you apart. And she then I do wish that because Mendrick just kind of randomly changes her back into a unicorn sort of in the middle of the final like red Bull battle. I wish there was maybe like narratively something more significant that like is a catalyst to get her to turn back, or that she is like I want to turn back and she does it herself or something. Maybe that's just kind of weak storytelling and.

01:04:17
Speaker 3: They're like, we have five minutes to end the movie.

01:04:19
Speaker 2: Oh, we gotta do she has to be a unicorn again. How do we do it? But it isn't until she does transform back into her like true self that she's able to then fight back against the red Bull. I don't even know what happens to her. She just sort of like intimidates him into the sea and then he like dies question Mark, and then that liberates all of the other unicorns. But yeah, I think that that like the thing thrust upon you versus you having the agency to seek it out yourself, and these two different stories I find very interesting.

01:04:52
Speaker 3: Yeah.

01:04:52
Speaker 4: Yeah, and there is that space too for that like that, it was a very the transformation was very exciting. She's like, oh, you could done this the whole time, I guess, but here we are. But an interesting thing about like the the unicorn is that it's always been like kind of a queer coated entity because it's this like beautiful white horse kind.

01:05:13
Speaker 7: Of going like horse lore.

01:05:15
Speaker 4: But then it has this like phallic symbol right of like a horn, and it's like she remembers that, oh, I have this horn, you know, and that's kind of what she uses to like fight back. So it's like her acknowledging all that she has in that moment, which I also felt like that was her like kind of like a more complete space she was she knew to fight against the heartbeat. I mean, she kind of was using the horn there, but maybe she didn't think that her horn had enough juice to you know, for the red bull. But then realize it and he just kind of like it is like oh all right, kind of bows down and it just goes to the ocean. Dodn't really know what happens to him, and then that's the end. And I also felt like it was interesting to me too, like, Okay, King Haggard can't fight, he doesn't have his name is Haggard, right, He's like not life is sucked out of him, so he has to rely on this other entity.

01:06:11
Speaker 7: And I'm like, oh, that's like toxic masculinity.

01:06:14
Speaker 4: Like it's like when you know you don't have the the power in yourself, so you have to have these like kind of henchmen do the thing for you.

01:06:24
Speaker 7: And then with the bull.

01:06:25
Speaker 4: My bulls typically signified they're like toxic masculinity in Taurus form, you know, very.

01:06:33
Speaker 7: Controlling, very stubborn, very domineering.

01:06:38
Speaker 2: Speaking as a Taurus can confirm.

01:06:42
Speaker 4: You know, like you know, we all have our udevolved like quote unquote shadow sides of our signs, and that is the bull right and red, which is also interesting, you know war.

01:06:52
Speaker 7: So there's there's there's.

01:06:53
Speaker 4: A lot going on with the symbology of how he himself can't do it but he has to rely on this other end to do it, and that it's unicorns yet again you know that are that are there And yeah, I just I just love this film so much.

01:07:10
Speaker 3: It's doing so it's so deep and that that you both make excellent points. I just this, I love this movie. I do think I hadn't really thought about, like, yeah, how Ariel really does spearhead her own transformation whereas and and that in that read they both end in the forum that was like their heart's desire and that they saw their their journey through and that's really beautiful. And yeah, I'm so curious. I mean I didn't look into what happens in the like the newer stories, but like I want to know what I feel like you sort of have an idea of where the unicorn and where Schmndrick's story is heading from there, but I'm like, what happens to Mollie and what happens to prince Le or where where does he go here? Does he like take a writing class, does he I hope so that would be a fun continuation of his story. Is like he finished that symphony he was complaining about.

01:08:14
Speaker 5: I don't know.

01:08:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, the more we talk about it, the more I fall in love with the movie. It's really cool, and I hope it's the sort of thing. I mean, I watched it on to be but I hope that it's still finding an audience today. I haven't heard much about it, but I don't know. I'm going to show it to my niece the next time I s he here. I think she'll love it.

01:08:36
Speaker 4: Yeah, i'd be curious to know. Like I think there are certain films I'm like, okay, when kids like it, what is this again saying about their own understanding of the world, because we don't really have that now. I mean, the animation I think in this film is like so beautiful. Yeah, it's like very artistic. I mean there's this one scene where it's like there's like some kind of sunset and there's like mountains and they're catching all the refracting a light that happens when you know, you see snow.

01:09:04
Speaker 7: And like a sunset, and I'm like, you don't see.

01:09:08
Speaker 4: That level, like that level of animation, like they were really taking kids seriously. And I think that's the thing I read about it, is like this is a film where.

01:09:18
Speaker 7: Kids are taken seriously.

01:09:20
Speaker 4: They're not pandering to you, They're not I mean, they have like some kind of off collor jokes, but it's very like we are going to present this story too, We're not going to tie it up of a neat boat.

01:09:32
Speaker 7: So I feel like it's just very.

01:09:34
Speaker 4: Much like someone being on like really seeing kids as equal, you know. And that's another thing that I deeply appreciate about this film.

01:09:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, this movie doesn't shy away from something that I mean, I guess it depends on the quality of movie, and it's like, of course there were crummy, condescending animated movies coming out the eighties as well, but I really appreciated how much this this movie does not shy away from, like a feeling of profound loneliness. I feel like stories like those are so appealing to a lot of kids feeling out of place and feeling just like alone and like you're business. I don't know, Like a lot of the things that I was drawn to when I was a kid were stories like that, of stories of feeling isolated and stories of feeling like you had to there was some sort of like fight to understand yourself and be who you were. And I don't know, Yeah, there is so many moments of from heroes and villains in this story of profound loneliness. And I feel like there's a pretty clear understanding that King Haggard, I mean, is doing this horrible thing because he doesn't understand himself. He doesn't know how to find joy in a way that isn't depressive, and he's clearly so lonely. And you see that like similar qualities in the friends and that find each other. And I just I don't know. I feel like loneliness is such a big part of being a kid, and movies that really don't shy away from that and don't say like whatever, just make a friend, which is I think how like more sort of talk down to you kind of media does is really impactful and like it sticks with you through throughout your life.

01:11:21
Speaker 2: Yes, is there a more chosen family than the Unicorn Schmendrick and Molly grew.

01:11:28
Speaker 3: It's it's a weird little.

01:11:29
Speaker 4: Family, yes, or mana maybe both, but you know it's like it's definitely chosen community. It very much reminds me of like, you know, the yeah, the first Muppet movie. Yeah, hermish is going on and like you're just gathering.

01:11:46
Speaker 7: People like a team, and.

01:11:47
Speaker 4: It's like, yeah, you'll do yeah, you know, why don't you come along? And yeah, I love I love that, and.

01:11:53
Speaker 7: She's just like, yeah, this is this is chill, this is fine.

01:11:57
Speaker 4: But you know, she's on her own journey. But her journey it's what awakens them to theirs. But I would I mean, I hope that if you know, Peter Beegle, like, if he you know, keeps going with this, I would love to see what he would imagine Molly grew, Like what would her space be like from there? Like does she stay wish Mandric or she's like, you know, this is kind of getting old, Like I need to kind of get my own.

01:12:18
Speaker 7: Stuff together, Like yeah, what does she meet up with the unicorn again?

01:12:23
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'd really want to see because I think that what's very interesting about fantasy is you know, here you have this universe where you can do anything right.

01:12:33
Speaker 7: All the rules are off the table.

01:12:35
Speaker 4: You can make trees have boobs, you can have a hearpeet with three breasts, you can have a red bull that gathers unicorns in the sea, but we don't quite have the imagination to think of an older woman who goes on her own journey, right, Like that is a sticking point and it's like, oh wow, Like so it just shows just how And that's I think a big critique for a lot of fantasy, especially men writers, is like, okay, so you can imagine people speaking Elfish, but not like a woman having agency. Like that's so interesting, like where the imagination can just shut down. And so I would really love to see what happens because that was a part that definitely when I rewatched it sometime in my late twenties, like I was just so struck my Molly groued. I literally had to show my sister. I was like, and she's like, it's so real, you know that part of when you feel like life has passed you by, but then getting a chance to do something different. But we don't really get to see that different. So I think that that's an opening. Maybe people who are into fan fiction can take that story into a different space, because I do think it could be a really beautiful story because she literally just goes to the castle and most of the scenes that we see her again, she's defending the men or she's cleaning, you know, and I'm like, that doesn't seem I think she.

01:13:55
Speaker 7: Has more clearly has more fight than that, more smart than that.

01:13:59
Speaker 3: We're going, yeah, I feel like that's not who we met at the because I just like, oh, I was so taken with her, because I mean, even her first line to the unicorn being where have you been? You're just like oop, like it just like hits you. And then she just sort of laughs in men's faces for a good twenty thirty minutes.

01:14:17
Speaker 2: And she does pet the cat and the cat's like yeah, do that.

01:14:23
Speaker 3: Oh, And You're like, all right, all right, mister beagle. Whatever you say, why not?

01:14:32
Speaker 2: This is this is silly. But I was like, Mollie Grew, h Is she an ancestor of I Grew? I thought the same thing. You know, it's like the Minion verse, the Minion verse.

01:14:46
Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe you know, maybe Molly Grew has you know, for I kind of I need to rewatch the Rise of Grew. I kind of forgot, yeah, the origin story, but maybe she is an ancestor of Grew A very powerful whole wizarded his own right or something.

01:15:03
Speaker 2: Yeah.

01:15:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about?

01:15:08
Speaker 2: I mean, this is such a rich text and I feel like I'm probably missing stuff, but that was kind of all I had.

01:15:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, Oh, I did have something about the America doing a soundtrack. I thought that that was really telling. If you listen to the lyrics of a song, there is a clear like climate.

01:15:28
Speaker 7: Change, you know, a thread that's happening.

01:15:32
Speaker 4: And you kind of can see like where she's going, and then when she goes to Caggard, it's like completely like wasteland.

01:15:39
Speaker 7: Yeah, and so that was a part that I'm.

01:15:42
Speaker 4: Like, oh, like it's like the Last Unicorn bisexual Awakening and or climate change optimism about you know, releasing these unicorns from the sea. But there are songs, especially Man's Road and The Last Unicorn definitely have like a climate like everything's desolate, but then we see the unicorn is there. It's that it's a sign that there is still yet life.

01:16:07
Speaker 3: So that was something It's almost like Loraxe a little bit. Yeah, like the Final Tree Seed. Yeah, I didn't make that connection. Yeah, everything else I have were just like lines that I was like, huh in a fun way where the when King Haggard fires his old magician or whatever, He's like, this guy's kind of a magician's magician, but maybe he's too good at magic. He's fired like everything King Haggard does, like he is a villain whose villainy spreads from like loneliness but also just boredom, and so it's funny. I liked the Magician's Magician just like a comics comic, Yeah, exactly. I liked the random, just really good character names across the board. Characters that we meet once and ever again include Jack Jiggly and will and Willie Gentle.

01:16:59
Speaker 2: Amazing names.

01:17:00
Speaker 3: There are two of the guys who are essentially eating tacas and then they follow the ghost of Robinhood or whatever. You're just like, fantasy is fun.

01:17:09
Speaker 5: Fantasy.

01:17:10
Speaker 3: It's your brain is both very on and very off at the same time, and it's just like a very specific frequency.

01:17:17
Speaker 7: Yes you need that duality.

01:17:19
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. The butterfly butterfly I mean legend, I think I don't know, right is he I don't know.

01:17:29
Speaker 2: It seems like he just like listens to other songs and then recites them at people, but then he also knows about the red Bull and what the unicorn needs to do to find her people just ddles.

01:17:42
Speaker 3: Riddles, riddles, riddles, my mom kind of tests. There was one point where I was I was watching this with my fiance and I turned to him and was like, this is how my mom texts. My mom texts in riddles sometimes, like I've had this conversation before. My mom is very the Butterfly did where it's like sort of insulting you, sort of complimenting you, and it's a series of incoherent riddles, and I love shout out Jill.

01:18:09
Speaker 2: The Butterfly and the cat should be friends.

01:18:11
Speaker 5: Yeah, they should, they should mesties.

01:18:14
Speaker 2: And then oh the skeleton.

01:18:16
Speaker 7: Yeah, maybe all three I would love. Maybe that's another fan fiction just them.

01:18:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, that would rock. That would just them anywhere and doing anything I would I would love.

01:18:28
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, the movie does pass the Bechdel test. It does between the Unicorn and Molly Grew, especially in that scene where Molly Grew's like, where were you when I needed you? Later she does tell amalthea when she's like in her human form and she's like, why are you so cruel to prince Lear. Yeah, there's a few exchanges I was hoping there might be more, but there's a few. But as far as the one true metric, the last metric, if you will, the Bechtel Cast nipple scale, where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. I'll give this maybe like three and a half. I don't know. I'm a bit flum mixed still by like some of the things. But I think as far as you know, interpretations and readings of this movie, because it's so open to so many things, I really appreciate that. I do appreciate that it subverts a lot of like Disney princess tropes and kind of examines what happens to a character a unicorn when she's isolated and is not with her people and doesn't have her community. I mean, we don't know a lot about her backstory or general unicorn lore in this specific world, Like are unicorns generally solitary creatures and that's why she doesn't notice that she's the last one, or did she used to have a unicorn family? If so, what happened to them? So there's a lot we don't know about her. I feel like the female characters overall in this story could have been better characterized, but there's still a lot of interesting things going on here. Also again the thing with her physical transformation into human form, that being something that wasn't her choice, and how it makes her sort of lose her sense of self and then she has.

01:20:33
Speaker 3: To regain it.

01:20:36
Speaker 2: You know, all these interesting themes. She's complex, She's complexlex I love her chosen family, and I love all these random side characters that pop in and out. So I will give I'll give it three and a half nipples. And we see so many nipples in the movie, such as the Harpies three nipples, so I'll give I'll give one to the Unicorn, one to the Harpie, one to the tree with boobs. My half nipple can be shared by the cat and the skeleton, my two favorite characters.

01:21:14
Speaker 3: I'm feeling a four. I don't know. I'm like, I'm like, why not? My heart is open. I feel like a unicorn prancing through beautiful. I'm going four. I think that this movie. I liked everything about it. I think I think outside of it. I'm docking it mainly for its lack of cohesion on Molly's part. Molly's my favorite character. Sorry to the Unicorn, but Molly takes it for me. I just I just was like so moved and like you said, Hannah, I mean, there's so few representations, especially in children's media, of like a woman having an awakening in middle age. If like, most often we just see stock moms or hags, and we do see a hag here, but she's a complicated hag. She's competicated.

01:22:00
Speaker 7: Haw.

01:22:01
Speaker 2: Yeah.

01:22:01
Speaker 3: I just like I love what this movie is doing. I'm gonna dock it for not giving Molly her you know, the full arc that she deserved. But outside of that, I just I was very I was laughing, I was crying, and I really appreciated it. So I'll go four nipples. I'm giving one two. Are we gonna give two to Molly. I'm gonna give her a full I'm gonna give three to Molly's like the Harpy. Wow, like the Harpy's three nipples, and then I'll give that the Unicorn. I mean, the Unicorn is she's she's good, she's good. I am going to give my final one to I think Mommy, because you know, Mommy Fortuna because again, just another perfect character. Name and and perfect. Even when the voice cast like, even when the voice performances were weird, I still loved it. You can tell that everyone is in a booth in a different state weeks apart, but that's animation.

01:22:57
Speaker 2: Baby. They read the script and they're like, I don't really notice.

01:23:02
Speaker 3: I'm not convinced. I'm not convinced Jeff Bridges read the script.

01:23:05
Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, I don't think.

01:23:07
Speaker 3: So, but that's okay. He may not know what happens in this movie to this day, but I yeah, So four for me, Hannah, what do you say?

01:23:17
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm also going to give it four nipples, mainly again for the Molly Grew, but I give it four nipples for what it's saying without saying, the way that it takes children seriously, it's art direction and this very strange tale that you know, they just go with it, and I really appreciate that. But yes, I think the main thing was I would have loved to see more from Molly Grew, more of her arc.

01:23:48
Speaker 7: I think it could have gone in some really exciting places.

01:23:51
Speaker 4: I also felt like prince Lear could have becive a little bit a little oomph.

01:23:56
Speaker 1: You know.

01:23:56
Speaker 4: I appreciate the effort but I think there could be more there. But yeah, I just this is still such a classic for me. And so if I was gonna assign the nipples, I have to give one to Mommy for tuna any woman with I mean, you know, it's like kind of Madame's.

01:24:13
Speaker 7: Like when you're using your power to.

01:24:17
Speaker 4: You know, like she wasn't she wasn't a sex positive, right, she was trickery and filters and all kinds of things. But I appreciate her ambition and that she knew she was going to die. She was like, yeah, like I'm giving myself to this, and it was this the you know, like she didn't run, like she just stood there, right, And so I appreciate that I give one to her.

01:24:39
Speaker 7: I give one to the unicorn.

01:24:41
Speaker 4: I appreciate her being like just really on her own shit and.

01:24:46
Speaker 7: Going on her own way. And then you know, she could stay in the forest, but she she left right, and she was brave. So I love that.

01:24:53
Speaker 4: I'll give one to Molly, you know, and I pray that she uses that nipple to awaken further in her own life. And then my final nipple, I'm going to give it to we want to give it to the tree it was short, but it was powerful, and it was definitely a scene that I never forgot.

01:25:18
Speaker 2: Memory.

01:25:18
Speaker 4: So yeah, and there's also a part where I probably sure brought this up earlier, but it was my own thing where I'm like, when it's not like he's kind of nestled in between the.

01:25:30
Speaker 7: The boobs, but I didn't. I thought at first it was ass.

01:25:34
Speaker 4: I thought he was like she like had and then she changed and I was like, oh, okay, it's a chest now, but it very much looks Yeah, it looked like a kicked up tree at first that he was just like, and I'm like, this is a very dumb kind of thing going on here, so I have to get Yeah, so yeah, that's where that's where I give my my nipples too.

01:25:56
Speaker 2: Amazing, incredible. Thank you so much for joining us for this disco.

01:26:01
Speaker 3: And for bringing us this movie. I'm just like a classic.

01:26:05
Speaker 2: Come back anytime.

01:26:06
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. It's been a joy, and I haven't talked about this movie in years, so.

01:26:13
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is.

01:26:14
Speaker 4: I'm actually curious as like when this episode goes live, like who who resonates and what does it bring up now, you know, because I think Molly grew supposed to be like thirty eight in the so very specific age and I'm like, yeah, it's like perimenopause. It's very like what the fuck was.

01:26:32
Speaker 7: I doing in my twenties?

01:26:33
Speaker 4: It spilled over to my thirties but I'm waking up? But also is it too late? And clearly it's not. It's not too late, So I would I would love to definitely have a discussion with people who loved it and how does it fit, you know, like, who are they now that were that like the film was for telling, like this is the direction you're going, you know, like you were going to be someone who is into psychedelics and anime inspired art and complex storytelling. So, yeah, something that I'm interested to see in this episode airs.

01:27:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, listeners, drop your thoughts on our Instagram post or I think you can comment on various podcast listening platforms these days, so share your thoughts. Hey, where can people follow you online? Check out your work? Check out your writing plug away?

01:27:32
Speaker 7: Yeah?

01:27:33
Speaker 4: So the first place would just be my website, Hannah oecho dot com.

01:27:38
Speaker 7: That's where I keep mostly everything going.

01:27:42
Speaker 4: I also am on Instagram at Hannah dot Echo and that's kind of my like my own like unicorn journey, like just posting kind of what's going on. And I write at Hannah Echo Rights dot subsect dot com under this is where I keep my mouth. So that's kind of where I keep my projects that I'm moving through, sometimes more finalized, sometimes not. But yeah, that's where you can find me. Those three places.

01:28:12
Speaker 2: You can find us on Instagram and our Patreon aka the Matreon, where for five dollars a month you get access to two bonus episodes surrounding an amazing, brilliant genius theme that Jamie and I cook up. There's lots of polls, there's lots of fun stuff going on over there. At patreon dot com slash Bechdelcast, you also get access to the entire back catalog of bonus episodes. There's almost two hundred summer around there, and it's a beautiful little community.

01:28:50
Speaker 3: It really is. So join us over there, and thank you for joining us here today. We will be back next week with another new episode.

01:28:58
Speaker 2: Bye bye bye.

01:29:03
Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and produced by me Jamie Loftus.

01:29:08
Speaker 2: And me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann and.

01:29:13
Speaker 3: Edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever heard of them? That's me and our logo and merch and all of our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus ever heard of her? Oh My God? And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan.

01:29:29
Speaker 2: With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

01:29:31
Speaker 3: Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo.

01:29:36
Speaker 2: For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash Bechdel Cast