Adventures of a King Cobra

00:00:04
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz.

00:00:06
Speaker 2: When us the world of Marco went.

00:00:08
Speaker 1: Welcome to Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of wildlife from around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This podcast is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio and San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, an international nonprofit conservation organization which overseas the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park.

00:00:26
Speaker 2: Oh, Rick, I can hardly believe it. We are kicking off season three of Amazing Wildlife. It's officially episode one of season three. Oh.

00:00:35
Speaker 1: I agree, Marco. It is really exciting, and especially when we think about last season. We all learned so much about wildlife and conservation and of course meeting and talking to all the amazing people who help make it happen.

00:00:47
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean, I know it's you mean, it was such a great season. And I don't know about you, but I can honestly say I learned a lot from our guests last year, and I'm really excited for everything we have lined up for this seas Oh.

00:01:00
Speaker 1: I'm right there with you, Marco. And of course, as our listeners know, you and I have spent the majority of our lives really working with wildlife and in conservation, and yet I still learn so much from our guest last season, and looking at this season, Oh, it promises to be just as interesting and educational for you and me both.

00:01:16
Speaker 2: I am so glad you said that because a lot of times, you know, people forget that learning about wildlife is not just about the cute, cuddly critters or the megafauna like elephants or gorillas. Interesting and fascinating facts can be found with any species.

00:01:33
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to break the fourth wall here, I'm talking directly to you, our dear listeners. Marco is currently setting us up for this episode's main topic, the king cobra. And before you even think about skipping this episode because maybe you don't like snakes, I need you to rise above your possible discomfort with these limitless reptiles. Hang out with us just for a bit longer and you won't be disappointed.

00:01:52
Speaker 2: A promise. And in this episode we have the pleasure of not only learning about a king cobra, but we will also learn more about the impact wildlife trafficking has on these and other species.

00:02:04
Speaker 1: I couldn't have said it better myself, Marco, and I must admit I know a little bit about the who and the what we're going to discuss today, and it's really an eye opening story filled with challenges and setbacks. But in the end, well I don't want to give it away, but let's just say I really like the ending.

00:02:19
Speaker 2: All right, then you go, I think it's time we head to this use reptile department, maminos.

00:02:26
Speaker 3: My name is Kim Gray, and I'm the Curator of Herpetology and Ichthyology at the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, and that means I'm the curator of reptiles, amphibians and fish.

00:02:36
Speaker 1: We've had you on the show before, so our listeners probably remember you know, they've been know this for a couple of seasons now. You've always brought such great and compelling information because the world you work in is not necessarily the number one reason people come to the zooper Vionana's right, it's just the reality of it. They want elephants, they want tigers, you know, all the big ones, but there are those that are curious about reptiles. And what I love when we have you on is the stories you share, I honestly think spark more interest in your world, and I don't think today's going to be any different.

00:03:06
Speaker 3: Well, that's good news for me. We're going to talk about it. Pretty cool animal that I actually really enjoy working.

00:03:13
Speaker 1: With and love. And that's the other thing to think about, too, is a lot of people think of And I'll just say it just so our audience knows we're talking about snakes today. If you're picked out by snakes and you think you hear Kim saying she loves working with him, I really encourage you to keep listening because this story is so important, not just for snakes, but many species that we work with at the San Diego Zoo. And this story, like we mentioned earlier Marko, ends on a pretty cool note. So, Kim, what exactly do you want to share with us today?

00:03:41
Speaker 3: Well, it's a little bit well say it's spring, right, Okay, we're going to start talking about how we work at zeus like a little matchmaking, right, let's start there. How about that? So we're talking about king cobras in particular, which in our previous podcast I got to share that's one of my favorite animals and I always wanted to work with. Well, now we kind of have a bit of a dating game that the zoos play. So we do a match, we look at genetics, we look at how related the animals are to each other and how unique they might be. So we want to preserve some unique traits, maybe a unique location, and we work together. And so we're going to talk about one particular snake that we have, and she's a girl and she's looking for a mate, so we're going to be bringing in a boy, and she's got a pretty unique story with us.

00:04:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's important to mention a lot of what matters too, are the genetics. We want to make sure there's genetic diversity in the population to keep it healthy. And her story kind of lends to why she's kind of special to have that opportunity for the new genetics.

00:04:42
Speaker 2: Exactly, it's a little more than swiping left and swiping right right. There's a little more involved everyone, But it's very good reason, you know. And again, Cobra is like every other while that that we have under our care here to day with the Safari Park, they really deserve full support, right, So I'm super stoked to listen about this amazing story.

00:04:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure they do. And honestly, King Cobras I'll share a little bit about what makes them special is they eat other snakes, so they're the top predator in their environment. So they speak for preservation of habitat.

00:05:08
Speaker 2: They really do.

00:05:09
Speaker 1: They require a lot.

00:05:10
Speaker 3: Of space and if you can conserve their habitat, you're saving a lot of species. So that's kind of number one with them. And again, just really unique. Guests love to see and they always ask, where's the king cobra. So this particular female, she's what we call a Chinese banded king cobra, So within their native range, they're all known as king cobra's. They're quite large. She's a little bit unique that she's found in a specific region within China and she's gotten more banded. And again, so other zoos in the Asia community within North America have their populations and we work really hard to see. Okay, this particular location is important. She's unique because she came from Asia, which means she's not related to any of the other ones we have, and that she can serve this important role as being a mom for the next generation.

00:05:56
Speaker 2: Wow, wow, that's super interesting. Really quick. With cobras, I always think of this funny land, like these snakes are in the hood and it's a weird reference, but it has to do everyone go with me here. Yeah, well, it has to do with that unique look right right, No, it's true. I'm not talking about a rattlesnake. Can you speak a little bit. I mean when I picture the cobra, I know you guys are thinking the same thing listening to this podcast about that beautiful hood like it's expansion of ribs, right, Can you talk a little bit about that?

00:06:20
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, exactly. And it's most likely evolved to make themselves look larger prey or predators rather that are going to come and try to attack them, But there is some evidence that they use it also for mating behaviors and communicating amongst their own cohort, their own group, their own species. But with king Kobra's in particular, the added uniqueness is not only do they eat other snakes, they will eat each other. So when we do go to introduce them, we have to watch for hooding behaviors and types of things that we need to pay extra special attention to make sure that they are going to be compatible, and hooding is part of that.

00:06:59
Speaker 1: So, just like people, the dating app can only take yourself, Fara.

00:07:05
Speaker 2: This was not there impressive. I'm gonna swipe to the left. That's super. I didn't know that they can actually eat each other. And there's something we had said last year. But you know, all wildlife communicates, so you have to learn how to listen, so you in your experience, you know, to read these behavioral cues, which is why this is so unique that you're going to try this matchmaking game exactly.

00:07:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we just have to go very slowly and make sure the animals tell us when they're ready. And also there's some of that what we call mate choice. These animals might look great on paper, like genetically they look great, they're like the best match. Then we might introduce them and they might want nothing to do with each other. We just have to go real slow and let the animals tell us what they want to do.

00:07:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh I love that.

00:07:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so amazing.

00:07:46
Speaker 3: So much goes into it.

00:07:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, consent is the thing. I was just talking about this with kids the other day. We're referring to castawaars because to get the females much bigger and can give quite a good kick to that male if he's not careful. So yeah, you got to really be careful about those behavioral nuance.

00:08:00
Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The other really neat thing about king kobers that people don't realize is they actually build nests, and the females will wrap around leaf litter and build these large mountain nests and even stak they're really unique.

00:08:11
Speaker 1: I'm really objective too. Yeah. Yeah, and the babies even after they hatch, they're protectively right.

00:08:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, fascinating.

00:08:17
Speaker 1: It really is, because I think often snakes get such a bad rap on so many levels, and people like, oh, it's just a stupid reptile. There's no use to them, all all the nuanced things that humans go down that path with snakes. But when you get to know them, and that's why I love talking to you, Chimus, because you share this information with us, and it's like, no, they care about their eggs, they build a nest, they protect a nest, They will to a certain extent also protect the youngsters for a little bit before they head off in their own little ways. And yeah, it's just it's so awesome to learn all this stuff.

00:08:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I mean I think people think these attributes are just for birds or manimals, right, No, I mean reptiles are the same thing. So that's amazing.

00:08:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really neat, And again it's just it's a fascinating opportunity for me to just see that I've always wanted to work with this species and getting the chance too. It's really neat with that.

00:08:58
Speaker 1: Now. We kind of teased out at the beginning when you first joined us that this young lady has a unique story and it's a big part of what we have to deal with working in the zoo and conservation worlds is making sure wildlife is respected, wildlife has cared for, and we as people are thoughtful. Even though if you don't see wildlife in the wild, we see somewhere else, we still have to respect these individual animals. I think that would be a great time for you to share her story for our listeners to get a better understanding not only how she came to live at the San Diego Zoo, but why we have to be thoughtful in what we do as humans for their other species on this planet.

00:09:32
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, and I think she serves as a great ambassador for this. So back in March of twenty seventeen, we did receive a call from our colleagues at the United States Fish and Wildlife Service and they were investigating wildlife trafficking, so some smuggling was occurring, and they had found some turtles and tortoises, which is very common, but also unfortunately reptiles are just targeted a lot, and they weren't aware at that particular time that snakes were involved, but they went in to investigate and they found they were anticipating just some other small tortoises. And you know, smugglers come up with very unique ways to smuggle wildlife. They put them in water bottles or film canisters or flashlight cases. When they went to open these small like the short stack pringles containers, there was three of them and when they opened them up, the king cobras one was in each one. Wow and very sad and so but also too for those personnel, the staff, they didn't know. It was very dangerous and it's not you can't just go and get anti venom. We are one of the only institutions in the United States that even carries anti venom, which is the medication that would be needed to use by the doctors if you're bitten. So we've of course we were ready on standby in case of a bite but you know, as they're investigating this, and it was part of a program that they were working all called Operation Jungle Book.

00:10:56
Speaker 2: The Jungle Music, right, Yeah, but it.

00:10:58
Speaker 3: Was kind of a there was a lot of individual, how should we put it, not so great people involved in smuggling wildlife, and there was a large number of animals. Yeah, and so the king cobras and when again there was a wide variety of other taxa involved, species involved, but the king cobras, this gentleman had smuggled in at least twenty three others in addition to these three, and all of those had died. So you know, these were animals were coming into the United States to make pets. They're dangerous animals. You have to have very skilled tools and capacity to care for them. They're very big. There's not anti venom for them.

00:11:36
Speaker 2: It's legal right most states.

00:11:38
Speaker 3: It is some it can be still legal, but it's just a very complicated scenario. And why they didn't have the paperwork, the permits for bringing them in, so they were confiscated and we ended up with them right off. The bat one had passed away, so within a month one had died, it was dehydrated, and the animals to go through a lot of stress and in these tiny springles containers. But the good news is that of the three that we received, two made it. One has gone off to be at another institution and will likely have a breeding recommendations as well. And then this female that we have, so she's been with us this whole time and she's doing great.

00:12:15
Speaker 1: Wow, and it's nice to hear that she's doing great. And the other one is save a another facility. I want to reiterate. I want to point out to our audience because I think it's so important what you said. Of the twenty three plus, only two survived. And this is just a small sample size of illegal wildlife trafficking that occurs, whether it's reptiles or birds or any other species like you mentioned, they're put into these horrible situations to be illegally smuggled. These smugglers don't want them found, so they're very stressful, they're dehydrated, they don't have food. Many of them pass away, so maybe a few can make it through so that smuggler can make some money. And where does that money come from? How do they make money is because there's a market for people who want to buy exotic pets. And that's one thing we always talk about Markis and wildlife ambassadors, the importance of understanding when you are looking at things in stores, whether they're trinkets or animals, you have to know where they came from. You absolutely, if there's any question you're not sure, you don't purchase. The big problem is that there's a market for it, and this wildlife suffers because of it. And again I want to bring it back to the happy note. This ends on for our young lady who lives with us here at the San Diego Zoo. But we also have to really understand the harshness of wildlife trafficking and why it's an important element for conservation.

00:13:31
Speaker 3: Exactly again her speaking as an ambassador for her species, but for all confiscated wildlife. Is that you nailed it is we need to just be aware of our impact. And even if we're as a tourist going overseas and purchasing something, always make sure you ask, Now these were actually imported into the United States, They're already here, and it's just ask. If you're at a pet store, you can just ask these questions, you know, and just really try to get that information.

00:13:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's a line. I always bring it up with pay it's you know, illegally trafficked, especially have a lot in America. And that you said it right on the money. Even kids out there listening right now, like you guys have the power ask the questions, right where did this bird come from? I mean I just got back from Beliezing. I saw the cutest little wooden earrings that I wanted to buy, and I asked the staff where did it come from? And all they could tell me was local wood. But they couldn't verify where this wood was coming from. So I want all of you out there when you travel to think about it could be It could be a scale, It could be a tooth, thrush ark tooth, They could be a feather, a piece of wood. You never know, but know that you have the power. You can make that positive impact right exactly.

00:14:35
Speaker 3: And that's why I'm coming to visit us at the zoo. Come visit her, you can see her, join, get a membership, visit your local zoo, and it's supporting all our conservation work together. And also when you do travel, you know, take pictures.

00:14:47
Speaker 1: Is kind of the.

00:14:47
Speaker 4: Theme pictures, Yeah, yeah, nothing else, Yeah, you memories and going down the pet theme here, I always in my heart it's always look, if you're looking for a companion.

00:14:59
Speaker 1: Go the shelter and rescue somebody. Yes, and leave it at that. I mean, this is your best veteran. But the other side of the pet story too. Several years ago, we ended up with a very unique cobra that was loose in the Thousand Oaks area of California. And for those who don't know that, it's just outside of Los Angeles, Can you share a little bit about that cobra's story and and sort of that scenario as well.

00:15:21
Speaker 3: Sure, And oftentimes we among the zoo community are approached to not just help take in these confiscated wildlife, but also to assist our colleagues because maybe they don't have the experience working with venomous.

00:15:34
Speaker 1: Right or the anti venom which exactly we.

00:15:36
Speaker 3: Have the medicine to help. So it was one of those scenarios where they had a neighbor had seen it loose. It was an albino, so it's a bright white snake, and there was some evidence to show that it was likely a cobra. Quickly there was some photos surfaced and it became very popular. Yeah, I thought, its own Facebook page, on Twitter account and you name it. And so at the time we were trying to just help navigate in our colleagues at the Los Angeles who were closer, so we were all trying to help. Again, we had anti venom for it, and so I'd offered at the time to like, if you can capture it, we will take it and we will care for it. But I do distinctly remember thinking, this poor snake, it's going to be gone, and it's an albinos, so it's going to be prime prey, like exact honey. And so I was very doubtful we would end up with it, but sure enough we did. I remember driving up there to pick it up and coming back. But he still with us.

00:16:33
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:16:34
Speaker 3: Again another ambassador talking about the.

00:16:36
Speaker 1: Fact that it was loose in a neighborhood. Yes, you know, is so important to touch on the fact that these venomous reptiles and other animals that have these abilities to defend themselves properly or hunt properly in their native environment do not belong in our neighborhoods, don't belong in your home, And the fact that we're one of the few facilities that have this anti venom is a great example too of the dangers then that if the anti venom is not available, we can't just go to the hospital and get this. It's not readily available. So we have to be thoughtful in what we're doing for our neighborhoods and our people too these situations.

00:17:10
Speaker 2: And ye know, I'm thinking to people right now, like my mom in particular, that's color up. But she's not a snake fan anittally, right. But you know, there's a lot of perceptions about snakes in general. We were just talking about this great story Ricky Ticky Tabby. Yeah, it's a wonderful story, but it depicts snakes in a negative light, you know. But there are the cultures Native American cultures in Mexico, India of course, in Asia Africa as well with a revere snake. So, yes, venom. I know it's a little spooky for some people, but they deserve respect and appreciation of being an important role in whatever ecosystem they can be found in, right exactly.

00:17:41
Speaker 3: And I think too, even locally with our own native habitats, for example, our ripe paring habitats or alltle streams even our little local garter snakes are in so much trouble from the historical droughts and then the catastrophic rains we're having. Their habitats really disturb so the snakes need love to and even our little garter snake that a lot of us grew up playing with, they all just need some support exactly.

00:18:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it'd be fair for you to add in there, Kim. Why are they important for the habitats they live in? They kind of painted a quick picture for our audience. What role do they play? Because it's that opportunity where when we understand something, we can better respect it.

00:18:17
Speaker 3: Sure. Well, the king cobra is a top predator in its environment. We talked about all the keystone species, whereas like the garter snake, it's going to be eating smaller prey, but it's also prey to other animals. So it's just a member of that food web, and it's just helping keep it healthy, keeps a balance exactly, that balance that's still.

00:18:33
Speaker 2: Critical even th look the one health concept. I mean, these snakes are helping out just for the selfish human reason alone, for our own health, right, I mean, there's a lot I used to say a bird show at the safari park. You get two mice, you put them in a field, no predators around. In one year you get close to a million mice in that field. Not to talk negatively about mice, they're adorable, they're important for ecosystems. But the point is, you guys, I mean, we don't have snakes out there are beautiful rattle snakes, the garter snake, the cobra, of these other animals like rats and rodents may just overpopulate and then diseases can you know, be transferred to human beings, right, So we don't want that.

00:19:06
Speaker 3: Exactly, in that albino cobra we talked about that its main predator or prey rather is mice rats, and exactly that so helping keep that rat population low so that the grain population that can be available for human Yeah, exactly, it's all a balance.

00:19:20
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, not to put you on the spot, but we've talked about the king cobra, and you said there's many different kinds of king cobras in general, how many actual species of cobras You don't have to go in too subspecies, but how many different species of cobras are there?

00:19:33
Speaker 3: You know what. I would love to answer that, but I'm a I'm what we call there's lumpers and there's splitters splitter, so I want to name like all of them. And each mountain range will have a different species. So there could be sixteen, likely more. Even just in a Kuthiak complex or the monocled cobra complex there's like could be eight. And so yeah, you can vary, right, I'll have to get back to me, vinal cam.

00:19:55
Speaker 1: No, that's fine, that's fine, And I love that you mentioned the lumpers and the groups. Could you define that for our audience. I know if that means. In the science world and biology world, we understand what that means. But help kind of paint the picture for our audiences to the challenges we have working in this world of biology and zoology is to really defining how many of a particular species, right, Okay.

00:20:15
Speaker 3: So species is basically where there might be a natural mountain range or an ocean, maybe an animals on an island, and it's not able to mate naturally with another of its closest kin, and over time they become different.

00:20:28
Speaker 1: And they aren't able and whatnot.

00:20:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so they become unique. Now in an area like North America, let's say with our native rattlesnakes, it's not so defined, so there might be some more squishy gray areas between, like overlap of populations.

00:20:41
Speaker 1: So people like.

00:20:42
Speaker 3: To either say there's a subspecies, I am more of a full species. And so I like to look at genetics and we call that philogeography, where we overlay genetics with topographic maps like geography.

00:20:55
Speaker 1: Ye, mountains, rivers exactly cause barriers.

00:20:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so all of that plays into back to the beginning of picking who should be breeding with who. We could be just breeding king cobras, but we know now, like there's these unique alleles, unique capito types, these banded the one she's a banded Chinese king cobra variant, and maybe she'll be a full species one day. But yeah, so we have to manage for.

00:21:18
Speaker 1: All of those things. Yeah. Yeah, I love that you shared that because often I think in the general public. I know, for me, growing up, I just thought there was king cobra's you know, that's just what it is. They got the cool little thing and the design, that's all there. And then as I got further into my education and zoo all just whoa, wait a minute.

00:21:33
Speaker 2: There's so many different versions.

00:21:35
Speaker 1: So I love that you you explained that out for us because it's so fascinating. And I think when people come to the zoo they just go, oh, snake, snake, snake. If they take the time to look at the sign and really appreciate the little nuances, you get such a love for the biodiversity exactly. Of all these different.

00:21:51
Speaker 3: Reptiles, you nailed it.

00:21:52
Speaker 2: Biodiversity board again, right, diversity. I love it so much. The color is the shade yeas snakes all over the world. Right, That's that's amazing.

00:22:00
Speaker 1: I love it. And as much as wildlife trafficking is a horrible and damaging thing that we're constantly faced with, I am glad to hear at least this one lady here has been able to find her forever home, if you will, to the San Diego Zoo and her counterpart that survived as well. It's another one. It's one of those things where I think, maybe we're gonna have to check in with you to see if she does get a match and it has become a boss and see how things go for her. It's one of those stories where the journey was rough, and tough, but the outcome, hopefully is going to be a benefit for her and for the future of the species.

00:22:33
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, thanks for having me on.

00:22:35
Speaker 2: Oh this is a great story, perfect way to start season three. I think appreciate it well.

00:22:40
Speaker 1: And this in the springtime release, so we're talking about love for hers.

00:22:43
Speaker 2: Yeah it, thank you, Kim.

00:22:49
Speaker 1: What an amazing story that Cobra has and I think she'll be playing a pivotal role in the future of her species by helping create a safe population.

00:22:57
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, one hundred percent. And it's worth her minding everyone one that although this King Kobra's story has a good ending and an encouraging future, her story started out with unimaginable conditions. Unfortunately, when it comes to wildlife trafficking, her story is a rare gem compared to what happens to others.

00:23:15
Speaker 1: And that's what makes her story even more important.

00:23:17
Speaker 2: Oh oh yeah, how so?

00:23:19
Speaker 1: Well, because she beat the odds and she has a promising future, we can share her story to give hope and inspire others. I mean, yes, wildlife in our natural world faces a lot of challenges, but when we learn more about those challenges, we can work together to make changes that help all wildlife.

00:23:34
Speaker 2: That's a really good point, friend. I mean, big changes happen when we learn more and we work together exactly. This was such a great way to start seeing three. Rick and I have a feeling our next episode is going to be just as good, if not even better. I mean there's so much unexpected.

00:23:51
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, we don't give it away just yet. We want our listeners to have a little bit of a surprise when they hear the next episode.

00:23:57
Speaker 2: Ah, yes, that's right, Okay, all.

00:23:59
Speaker 1: Right, so be to subscribe and tune into our next episode, in which we learn more about the unexpected and maybe unknown facts about wildlife.

00:24:10
Speaker 2: I'm Marco Went and I'm Rick Schwartz.

00:24:12
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. We're more information about the San Diego Zoo and San Diego Zoo Safari Park. Go to SDZWA dot org. Amazing Wildlife is a production of iHeartRadio. Our supervising producers are Nikkia Swinton and Dylan Fagan, and our sound designers are Sierra Spreen and Matt Russell. For more shows from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.