397 | If Children Aren't Cognitive, Why Do Some Want to Sit and Talk?

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi,

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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast

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where you get a master class in child-centered play therapy and practical

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support and application for your work with children and their families.

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In today's episode,

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I am answering a question from Benjamin in Ontario,

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Canada.

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Hello,

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Canadians,

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our neighbors to the north.

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Thank you for listening and Benjamin,

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thank you for the email.

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This is about children not having abstract reasoning and not being cognitive,

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but the question about how CCPT works in the midst of that,

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really interesting question,

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kind of deep and philosophical,

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which I love those types of questions.

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So,

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Benjamin,

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I appreciate you.

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I we'll dive into this and then we'll

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talk about it.

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I'm a registered psychotherapist here in Ontario,

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Canada.

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I work approximately 50% with adults and 50% with children,

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where I am embracing the CCPT model fully.

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I do have some initial training specifically in CCPT.

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I discovered your podcast a few months ago,

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and I've been slowly but consistently diving in.

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I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart

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for uploading this content and sharing your passions for this.

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You're so welcome.

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I'm so glad.

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It's truly a beautiful work and I've seen results

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in my 2.5 years of practicing so far.

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Here's my question.

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You frequently note that children before age 13 are not rational or logical,

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and therefore,

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certain alternatives such as CBT aren't developmentally appropriate.

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Is it more of a gradual shift in cognitive processing across childhood?

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I do have some 9 to 11 year old child clients that want to sit and talk

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and seem to display inklings of self-reflectiveness.

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This leads me to sometimes be confused on this point.

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All right.

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And actually,

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there was an additional question.

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I think I just skipped over it when as I was reading it.

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Are you able to direct me to studies that explore this age dynamic?

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So,

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the easiest answer to that question

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is you need to look at Piaget.

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Piaget, before we really understood CCPT

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as a model

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was

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very clearly delineating

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the stages of development.

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And the cognitive processing that takes place at each stage.

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So,

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Piaget is going to be your starting point for

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your ability to distinguish when children actually have

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abstract reasoning.

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You can actually also just search

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when does abstract reasoning develop,

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and you'll find all kinds of studies.

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It's typically 12 or 13

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are the ages that are almost always

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referenced in studies.

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So,

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now,

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let's dive into

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your

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additional question.

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I have some 9 to 11 year old clients that want to sit and talk

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and seem to display inklings of self-reflectiveness.

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Is it a gradual shift in cognitive processing across childhood?

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All right,

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so I think it's important to start.

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With the idea that one of the

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common parent questions that we get,

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similar to the question you're asking,

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Benjamin,

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often dads,

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not always,

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but often dads,

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And very concrete black and white logical thinking parents

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will say,

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well,

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children go to school and they learn.

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And that's cognitive

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children memorize things for tests,

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that's cognitive.

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children can recite poems,

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that's cognitive.

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children learn to add and subtract and spell,

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and

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so on and so forth.

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So,

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they reference academic learning.

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And that seems to contradict the notion that kids aren't logical,

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rational,

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and don't have abstract reasoning.

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So,

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similarly to your question,

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Benjamin,

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I think it's very important for us to recognize

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that

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the ability

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to

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memorize,

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rehearse,

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practice,

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and acquire information.

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100% exists from

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infancy.

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There,

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there is an observed learning.

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There's

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modeled learning,

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there's experienced learning.

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So if a child goes to school

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and sings the ABC's

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every morning in kindergarten or VPK or whenever kids are first in school,

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used to be kindergarten was the beginning of it.

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Now it's like 2 and 3 years old,

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which that's another conversation for another day.

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But

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if they go and they sing the ABCs every single day,

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if they sing the

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months of the year,

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if they sing the days of the week,

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if they

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Say the Pledge of Allegiance over and over again.

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If they count their numbers again and again,

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if they rehearse multiplication facts,

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1 times 3 is 3, 2 times 3 is 6.

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If they do that over and over again,

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will they

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remember that stuff?

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Absolutely.

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But it's not a cognitive process per se.

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And so what we're trying to distinguish and differentiate here.

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A child is an experiencer.

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They live in their emotions.

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They live in the here and now.

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Fascinatingly,

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one of the most consistent strategies for teaching to very young children

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is in song.

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Why do we think that is?

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Because songs evoke emotions.

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And songs can put,

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test this theory.

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Listen to a song that you haven't listened to in 25 years.

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Some of you may not even be old enough to do that.

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You were like

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infants then.

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But,

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you know,

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go back in time,

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a long time from now.

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Pull up a song you haven't thought about or heard of or,

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you know,

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even had any recollection of in years.

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Listen to it

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and it will take you right back to where you were when you used to listen to that song.

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You will remember what you were doing,

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you remember how old you are.

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You will remember what was going on in the world and in your life.

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Why?

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Because songs are emotionally driven.

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They connect to us at an experiential,

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emotional level.

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OK.

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So this actually very much supports

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the notion that children are experiential emotional

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learners.

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So now let's fast forward to CCPT.

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Around 12 or 13,

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kids do develop abstract reasoning,

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which allows them

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to experience and feel,

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but then also think.

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Up to that point,

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developmentally,

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they're going to just experience and feel.

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So,

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how does CCPT work?

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It is an experienced

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learning.

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Here's what happens.

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They come into the playroom.

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They test boundaries.

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They test relationship,

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they test limits,

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whatever the scenario is.

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And because of our interaction,

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because of our unconditional acceptance,

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because of our verbal engagement following the model.

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Because

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of the environment and the relationship being so unique as the conditions

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under which children can become better versions of themselves,

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you swirl all that together in a mix,

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and what happens?

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A child

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fights,

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bucks,

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tests,

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pushes,

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and then goes,

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I don't like this.

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That's not a cognitive thought,

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y'all.

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Please take some time to digest that for a sec.

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The child is not thinking,

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I should not do this.

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I'm going to do something else.

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They're going,

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I don't like how this feels.

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This actually makes me feel really bad.

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I know that I'm bothering

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this person that I come and play with and that I actually care about,

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and this doesn't feel good to me.

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This doesn't feel right to me.

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So,

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what do they do?

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They change their behavior.

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It's not a cognitive decision,

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it's an emotional decision.

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I'm going to avoid this feeling by behaving in a different way.

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So,

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likewise,

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to all of the other components of CCPT,

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they come in and they experience it.

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They experience what it feels like to have their feelings reflected to them.

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And then they feel their feelings somatically.

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They feel their feelings emotionally.

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Then the therapist says,

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you're proud.

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And they go,

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oh,

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I feel proud right now.

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They have the word to connect to their experience and their emotion.

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So,

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what we're trying to

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really make sense of in this process

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is that everything that a child learns

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as part of the play therapy process,

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it is still felt and experienced learning.

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And that is very different

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than cognitive intellectual learning,

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which that comes into play further down the road for them.

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Now,

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Benjamin,

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back to your second part of your question,

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9 to 11 year olds that want to sit and talk.

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Well,

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there's lots of reasons why a 9,

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10, 11 year old want to come in and talk.

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Is it avoidant?

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Is it safe?

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Is it anxiety-driven?

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Is it resistant?

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Is it because it's an initiation

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and

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I have to build a relationship with you first?

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Is it because

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they're parentified?

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Is it because they are people pleasing and perfectionistic?

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All kinds of reasons a 9,

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10, 11 year old are going to come in and talk.

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Developmentally,

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that will not last long.

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As they become more comfortable,

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as they build trust,

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as they build rapport,

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as they

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start to face the things they need to face.

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9,

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10,

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and 11 year olds play.

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Now,

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there are more emotionally,

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psychologically,

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mentally,

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verbally mature kids.

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So you might have an 11 year old that presents more like a fourteen-year-old.

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Some of that could be maladaptive.

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Some of it could be they're just a firstborn

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and they're mature and they're responsible

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and they're parentified a little bit,

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and so they feel comfortable

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dialoguing.

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So then you will typically in that case,

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see a play talk hybrid.

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They're still going to play eventually,

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but they'll talk and play.

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So,

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the 9,

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10, 11 year olds that come in and talk,

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that is usually means to an end.

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That's not because

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they're so advanced intellectually and cognitively

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that

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they feel compelled to do that.

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There's usually a reason why they're doing it in the first place.

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And

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do they possibly have some self-reflection?

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Sure.

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Preteens start to be more cognitive.

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So yes,

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of course,

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developmentally,

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an 11 year old's going to have way

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more introspection and self-reflection than a 6-year-old.

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But are they at full abstract reasoning yet?

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Probably not.

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So there's very much a gradual shift that takes place

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because there are developmental surges.

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The brain develops

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in predictable spurts.

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So,

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all along through the process of childhood,

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there'll be

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a brain development surge.

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And then they're going to respond and act and think differently.

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However,

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we know

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12 to 13

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is the age when abstract reasoning

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statistically

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appears.

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So until that age,

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they are still not cognitive beings.

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They're experiential and emotional beings.

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And that's why CCPT is so well suited,

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because it meets them where they are.

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It understands developmentally what they need from us.

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And then we're able to meet them

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instead of asking them to come up and meet us.

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So,

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Benjamin,

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thank you so much for the question.

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I hope that that was helpful to you.

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I hope that it was helpful,

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helpful to all of you.

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We are always trying to understand.

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The deeper why

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behind this model,

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and this is one of those examples.

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I'm glad we were able to talk about it.

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We have this very unique

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scenario

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where we

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recognize and honor

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and honestly respect

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children's developmental levels.

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And that gives us the ability to experience and feel with them.

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And then as they mature and as they get older,

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they start to integrate some of those

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other more cognitive and intellectual components in.

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If you would like to reach out to me,

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I'd love to hear from you,

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Brenna at the kidcounselor.com.

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And I hope y'all have a great week.

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We'll talk again soon.

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Love y'all.

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Bye.

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Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.

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For more episodes and resources,

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please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.