Superintendent Series: Josh Lewis on Bandon Dunes, Pasatiempo, and Chambers Bay

00:00:00
Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends at Toro Golf. Two things tour pros hate leaking oil down the stretch and their caddy having to quiet spectators. Golf course maintenance bros are the same, except they worry about literally leaking hydraulic oil and waking up the neighbors with early morning mowing routines. Toro's new Greens Master e Triflex series riding greens mower solve both problems. The engine generator model is amazingly quiet in operation, while the lithium ion battery model is virtually silent. Both e Triflex models carry no hydraulic fluid on board, using all electric components for attraction, steering, lift and cutting. This means not only our potential leaks a thing of the past, but noise complaints are too. Follow at Toro Golf on Twitter and reach out to your local Toro distributor to schedule a demo. Today's episode is with Josh Lewis, super Tenant at Sharon Heights Golf and Country Club in Menlo Park, California. I was out in San Francisco just about a week ago. It's crazy loss has changed in a week. Uh. Josh and I talk off the top about the coronavirus and how he's preparing. Since that time, San Francisco has essentially gone into lockdown. So you know, they are just basically maintaining the golf course at as needed to keep the you know, fine turfs alive and well. Obviously tough time, and uh, everybody in the superintendent industry, Uh, you know, be safe out there, use extra precaution. I don't think that has to go without saying. And golfers alike, you know, social distance, be be smart. But Josh and I talk about a ton of different topics. He has a lot of great experience. He grew up in Cuspey, Oregon, which is very close to abandoned dunes and kind of got his start up at cuspe and with banded dudes. So we talk a ton about that resort and his getting into turf, as well as his experiences at Pasa Tiempo and Chambers Bay for the US Open. So, without further ado, here is Josh Lewis I miss a green? For example, I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker.

00:02:18
Speaker 2: I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a brid egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg Frida, egg Frida egg egg Frida, egg bride egg.

00:02:26
Speaker 1: Lie, I'm about ready to run.

00:02:27
Speaker 2: Off the gulf.

00:02:36
Speaker 1: Crazy times right now, Josh, have you ever seen anything like this?

00:02:43
Speaker 2: No? Matter of fact. I talked to one of our members yesterday. His dad's actually having his hundredth birthday. He pitched that question to his dad, and his dad said he'd never seen anything like it. Interestingly enough, he was born in nineteen twenty two years after the Spanish flu, so it's nothing in my lifetime for sure.

00:03:04
Speaker 1: With you managing a team, obviously, I think that's people forget a lot of times with casual public that you know, you're superintendent, you're managing a big team. What you got twenty five thirty people. What type of precautions for coronavirus have you guys put in place?

00:03:23
Speaker 2: A lot of it's education, you know, general cleanliness, you know the typical stuff that everybody's doing, wiping down, advising on hand washing, all that type of stuff. But really for us, it's about caring for the people and being sensitive to the impacts in their lives. Outside of here and understanding that this is a chaotic time and just trying to be flexible, trying to be understanding on an anxiety level and things like that as well. So there's lot a psychological component too.

00:03:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, obviously a club, there's I think, like golf had the big, vast acreage and the outdoors like make it a great escape for people. But then there it also comes with the indoors and the common use facilities, so it makes it tough. It's a it's a good escape in some regards, but then there are other aspects of of you know, buildings and locker rooms and you know, pro shops that make it an unideal place. So it's really it's gonna be a compelling thing to watch what happens the next couple of weeks with clubs across the country and uh, obviously being in San Francisco. I think San Francisco has been out in front of this more so than a lot of places with with the company policy, which a lot of your members are involved with. So I think, you know, that's that's something that I guess we're gonna have to monitor the next you know, a couple of weeks. But it's it's definitely an interesting time for the golf industry.

00:05:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, I think just in the last couple of days, we've been in contact with a lot of the area clubs as well as ourselves having meetings. Is directly associated with this to decide what the best course of action is. I mean, let's be honest, nobody's got the roadmap for this. It's completely uncharted territory, so we're developing it as we go and trying to be conscious of that. You know, things changing by the day, so we are forced into leadership roles and we have to make good decisions regardless of you know, short term outcomes. The reality is way bigger than any sport.

00:05:40
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's the toughest thing about it is like looking at the short, short term problems with it that come with it and being able to come to grips that, like your everybody, everybody is going to get to go through short term pain unless you're like a hermit that enjoy being, you know, stucking home and all your money's in a mattress. You know. So let's let's move on to a more interesting subject, maybe more but you know a little bit lighthearted, more lighthearted, subject yourself, we're gonna talk about you. That's the lot I I was just up abandoned. So this is a timely time to have this conversation because I was getting uh was getting driven to pick up a rental car and uh, I we're driving. We drove past cous Bay and I said to the guy, uh that was driving me up there. I was like, Hey, what's that place like? And he was like, you know, I hear, it's actually pretty cool here. It's got like a historic designer. And then we're talking in your first job out of golf was at Cousbay. So Cousbay is thirty minutes from Abandon on the way down from Portland. Everybody drives by it. And UH, tell us a little bit about Cuspe.

00:07:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was born and raised in Cuspey Town. I mean between Couspe and North Bend. I think it's like total of about thirty thousand people. So it's the largest town on the Oregon coast, which obviously doesn't say much. We still had to drive two hours to get to a legitimate mall, you know, no costco to raid for toilet paper. You know, I don't know what people are doing honestly at this point because you know, you can't find the stuff right. So, but they had a great little you know, originally it was a little nine hole h Chandler Eagan, you know, kind of one of those we talked about it as like, uh, you know, Mini augusta kind of deal, you know, white sand bunkers, super fast greens, big trees, the whole bit. They then added another nine hole, so it's eighteen total now, you know, just a great little blue collar club. You know, it's gone through several iterations and it's it's mutated a bit, but the bones are still there. And ironically, some of the guys that I played high school golf with have actually ended up back there in management positions, you know, whether it be head pro GM type of scenarios. And it's seen a really cool revitalization, especially with the caddy inputs from from Bandon, you know, between Bandon Crossings and Acous Golf Club now is what they're calling it. But tons of great you know, weeknight games and things like that that have really brought heartbeat back to it. So it's pretty cool to see.

00:08:43
Speaker 1: What was it like watching that being somebody in the area and watching the impact that Bandon had and like, from I guess cradle or from the cradle to where it is now.

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Speaker 2: In all honesty, I mean, growing up in Cuspe, we're like, oh, we're the big you know, we're the big city on the coast, right, So we we all kind of looked at band It was always this cool, little sleepy resort town. But it was never obviously what it is now. We knew that property was. We all felt at least like it was. It was just covered in coarse It wasn't you know, what is this like, you know, when it first started happening, we're like this guy from Chicago crazy, Like that's you know, again, having grown up there, you know the history in the background, and you're like, this isn't going to work, which is the reason that I'm where I am. And you know, mister Kaiser is who he is and the genius that has occurred there and and you know, again one of the billion dollar ideas I've I missed on. So but you're too close to it, maybe yeah, yeah, so, but it uh, you know, my first view of that whole thing was, of course, I grew up a golf nut, playing in high school golf, working on golf courses things like that. But my dad was in concrete construction and one of our best family friends was actually worked for the general contractor that was building the lodge. At the time, they were in work trailers and the lodge wasn't there. Nothing was built. They had nine holes grassed to abandon And I remember going down there with my dad when I was a young teenager and just looking through the trees at this golf course that was on the ocean, going this thing is incredible, you know, it was awesome. I didn't know anything about it, but I had this unique access because of a family friend, you know, several years before it even opened. And then just to watch the development of the property, to have worked there and been a part of that growth phase, and then to see what has really transpired in the community and the life that's been injected into a place where really the only income and industry there was logging and fishing. You know, there wasn't a huge tourist impact. Now it's that's the majority of what comes into that area. So it's completely shifted people's focus. I mean, just the social programs and the educational programs and the money that's been injected into the community, from the Kaiser family, from Bandon dune'es, the amount of people they employ. I mean, it's it's changed everything.

00:11:22
Speaker 1: So you're working at CUSPE and you're watching Bandon just start getting built. And at that time, you were in school, right or high school, So you're watching that and you probably immediately are like, this is something I gotta jump on and get involved with, right.

00:11:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was intrigued. I mean, at that point, all I cared about was figuring out a way to get to the first t you know. Really, it was like, get me through school, get me out of class, get me on the golf course. I'll play till dark, and I'm gonna get up tomorrow and do the same thing, right, So I was mostly concerned about figuring out a way to pay for my golf habit. And that's where summer work came in and you know, got a job working on the golf course and whatever. Of course, as I went through high school, I got out of high school and I'm like, oh, you know, I'm gonna do something with golf, right, And I worked my butt off my senior year in high school. In the year after I graduated and got down to I was a plus one or something like that, qualified to play in several of our like like our state amateur that year was at Pacific Dunes, right, and so I'm like, that's the tournament I want to make sure I get into and see, you know, I'm going to match myself up against some really good players. Right. That was very quickly apparent to me that I didn't exactly have that talent. So I was like, okay, at this point after that summer, I went, what am I going to do for a career? Right? And the byproduct of that was I kind of fell in love with working on golf courses. And then at that point, you know, of course Bannon had been built, opened, they just opened Pacific Dunes. You could kind of see the riding on the wall at this with success. That's what drove me down there.

00:13:08
Speaker 1: What about working on golf courses did you fall in love with?

00:13:14
Speaker 2: I didn't have to be in an office every day, which ironically we're in an office right now doing this. But at that point I got to work outside. I got to be up early, I got off early. I could be I mean literally I could work an eight hour day or a nine hour a day and play another twenty seven holes. That was my whole motivation. That you know, once you get married and you have kids and things like that, that changes. But at that point, all I cared about was figuring out how to be able to play more golf. And so it provided that I was outside. I got to do physical labor. The people in the industry seem pretty cool, and I liked the hours and it was just it was kind of in my wheelhouse.

00:13:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, I I think about that all the time. A lot of times. I wonder if that would have been a good job for me. You know, I would have always was liked being out early on golf course that there's something special about the morning and you get to do different jobs every day. So get you get involved with Bannon and your first job was working at Bandon Trails, right, Bandon Dunes. Okay, so you're on the maintenance team there. Tell us you know, how much different was it working at Couse Bay, you know, a small town club to going to Bandon Dune's a big resort. The kind of the culture of the team that you were working with, and just the expectations.

00:14:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that, I mean, to be fair, the culture at Bannon was still in its infant stage, Like they didn't really have I think they knew what they wanted to be. They had a very clear vision, especially from the very top. I mean, the Kaisers of all Is known what they wanted out of that. But we were still developing what that team culture was, what that looked like. But just from an operational perspective, I mean a small town club, like most of the guys we worked with in the summer especially were either high school kids or college kids or whatever. I mean, there was a fair amount of fun happening, you know, that wasn't necessarily work related, but it was still a great experience. Then you get to Bandon and you go, okay, this is a little different level you could just tell, you know. And at that point it was super growth phase. I mean, it was a new golf course every two years, three years, whatever. I mean. I showed up, got employed to work on the on the original band and Dun's golf course, and I didn't see the golf course for six weeks because we were renovating the practice facility. And my introduction to the resort was laying sixteen thousand pavers by hand, you know, paths that go through there and laying you know, four acres of sod, taking you know, sawd out of parking lots, put in the back on range tease. I mean, I was loving every minute of it, But I didn't see the golf course that I got hired to work on literally for six weeks. So that was just the way we did it. Like you went crazy in the summer with just maintaining golf courses, and then every winter was a construction project or renovation or a new golf course. And it's just incredible.

00:16:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that change, the constant changing, like the no monotony had to be so awesome. You probably learned so much. It was almost like you're I mean you were part of like a startup environment. Like a lot of your members here are very successful tech entrepreneurs that started companies and from nothing to really big things, and and you were essentially in early member of one of golf's most successful startups.

00:17:05
Speaker 2: Oh exactly. I mean, that's exactly what it is. And that was the startup culture. I mean, everybody it was. It was. I mean from the minute that I got there, it was, you know, well, who's going to go to the next golf course. You know, who's going to be the next superintendent over there, Who's who's going to follow them to construction, you know, And that was the way it was my entire time there, and it was just awesome. And to be honest, I had zero idea what valuable experience I was getting, Like I didn't know. I was having a great time everything, like beyond your Oh I'm I'm nineteen twenty years old and I'm jumping on bulldozers and I'm I'm working on you know, I'm I'm doing heavy construction, like we're building golf courses. We did everything in house there. We didn't contract anything out. So I'm doing irrigation installation, I'm doing I'm building greens. I'm you know, It's like I didn't think anything of it because I'd grown up with the construction with my dad, and I was like, oh, this is what every golf course is. Like that wasn't the case.

00:18:06
Speaker 1: I'll never forget. I took a job. My second big, like big job was I went to young startup and it was really small at the time, and you know, I was like one of the first twenty employees and I remember it work changed where it was really an unbelievable thing that I was. You know, I wor was working harder than I ever had in my life, and I was like excited to go into work. Is that the way you kind of felt out there?

00:18:36
Speaker 2: Oh? I loved every minute of it. I couldn't wait to go in and see what new was going to happen or you know who was going to be there that day. I mean, at that point, it was so new and so fresh that everybody had to see it, right, they had to experience it. And so you've got people like Arnold Palmer coming and you've got Tom Watson showing up. You've got Michael Jordan, You've got you know, Bill Russell, You've got all these people. And it was literally every day, especially during the golf season, somebody knew was showing up and you're like, this is still banned in Oregon. You know, these people aren't supposed to be coming here, but they are, and they're being drawn by a golf course. It was just surreal.

00:19:17
Speaker 1: It probably was even more refreshed, like refreshing and cool being somebody that grew up in the area.

00:19:24
Speaker 2: It still is. Every time I see, you know, something coming out, whether it be print media, social media, whatever. It's like it's still a little strange because there's a ton of pride there. I mean, you know, and even going back like being on the construction at Bandon Trails, every time I see a photo of that, or every time I see an article or whatever, I'm like, yeah, you know, we actually we built that. Like I remember, you know, hand raking that little bump behind the third green with Dave zincand like I remember that, like that is a nobody can ever take that away, you.

00:19:58
Speaker 1: Know, talk about the construction of Banded Trails that I think the thing I took away from Bandon is I just loved how every property had its own unique identity within the same resort. And to me, of all the properties, that one had the most, the strongest identity and like really character. I mean, it is the only one that's not on the ocean. Yet I feel like of it just left something lasting, Like it's something about how everything there ties in together that really makes it. And I imagine there was a lot of thought behind how that course was laid out during the construction process.

00:20:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that was my first experience with that property was actually I mean, again, we have this conversation. Right. I was at Banded News for a year and the only thing anybody wanted to talk about was who's going to go over to trails constructions? Right, And so I put my name in the hat really early. I was like, I want to do that. That sounds awesome. So I was involved from like originally. I mean I remember cutting sightlines for like the ninth hole, and we're in, you know, just twelve feet of underbrush with chainsaws, like trying to get tunnels cut through and open things up so that guys could see you know, turnpoints and tee locations and things like that. So that's when I mean, it was nothing but brush and trees when I first got over there, and then taking it from that to literally opening day, you know, with mister Kaiser and mister Kernshaw and mister krsand on the first tea handing out you know, opening day coins to everybody and sign in scorecards. It's like, again I had zero idea what experience I was actually getting. I mean, being able to walk you know, the fourth fairway and talk about that ridge that cuts through that hole side by side with mister Crunshaw is like and he's we're having a conversation he and me, and he took time to have a conversation with a twenty twenty one year old kid that was just a golf fan.

00:22:12
Speaker 1: Right.

00:22:14
Speaker 2: That is an impression that was made on me that will never go away. And that's when I kind of started to think about architecture and I started to think about things a little bit differently, and you know, having conversations with Dave zincand about like, you know, what do we want this landform to look like? Like, what do we want this finish shaping to look like? And I remember you just looked over it this dune between that dune that's between kind of the fourth tea and the third green, and he said, we just wanted to look like that, make it look like that. And I'm like, that's so simple. Yet it's genius, you know. And all those guys that team that was put together, you know, whether it was Jim Craig or Dave Axland or whoever. And you just go the things that I was able to absorb and soak in that I still look back on, even not just architecture construction, but how to treat people. You know, when you look at people like Bill Kohr and Ben Crenshaw and the fact that they would take time out of their day to have a conversation with some kid that they don't even know. That's that's been a lasting impression on me, you know, And that's changed the way I've approached things in my life. You never know who you're going to impact, right, but that experience has been an incredible draw for me. And we're sitting here in an office and I still have the team photo that's signed by Ben Crenshaw and Bill Kohr on my wall. Like it it's a really neat thing that I still draw from, you know. But it's been really neat to see that golf course develop and change. And like you said, when we first built it in it was opened, it wasn't people's favorite golf course by a long shot. Like it was significantly underrated in my opinion. And as the golf course is aged, it's really become not only one of people's favorites, but people really have looked at it from a technical standpoint and gone, man, this is this is incredible architecture, incredible routing.

00:24:14
Speaker 1: That the routing is something that I was really amazed. I think the first you talked about three and four that was obviously a moment in the round, like you know, for you get that first impression. At Blake, Conant talked about how Tom Doke always talks about you have to make an impression on the first five holes, and standing on three t I was like, whoa. And then you get to four and you have that massive ridge cascading down and you're like man. And then I thought one of the things I was most impressed about was the way the routing connects the long walks, how seamless the long walks are, and the feel of those walks, like you don't don't mind having to walk a little bit between holes out there, and then all of a sudden you start to feel yourself almost like figurating around a property.

00:25:09
Speaker 2: Well, and I still use that to this day, right, And it's the kind of the way we talk about it is, you know, around a golf is a journey, and it's a journey that begins the minute you Honestly, in the private club world, it's the minute that you pull into the parking lot. It's the level of service that you get, it's the level of experience you get from that point to the golf shop to the first tea, how you move through the property. That was the first instance for me when that really clicked, Like, yes, it's about you know, the t shot, and it's about the approach shot, and it's about bunker positioning things like that. But those walks from green to tea on that golf course are so important in understanding the journey that is bandon trails from you know, the first tea to the eighteenth green and the way those holes connect and yeah, some of those holes, some of those walks are long. Like originally they didn't have a cart that took you from thirteen green to fourteen tea. You got to walk. And I remember building that trail, that path. It wasn't necessarily that road. There was actually a trail that went up and it was a great little trail.

00:26:20
Speaker 1: I took that trail because I was out there walking late and I took the trail up. It was an incredible walk.

00:26:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a great walk. We built this super cool, little super serpentine deal and it was awesome. And then they're like that's still too hard, and they're like, yeah, it kind of is, you know. So they had the service guy there. Now that does that. But but those connectors on a golf course that was routed frankly on a tough piece of property, with that giant dune that runs between those. We called them the forest holes and the metal holes. But it's masterful how it goes around the end and then it comes up over the top and you have, you know, figuring out a way to make those walks from greens to tease part of the round is part of the genius of the routing, right Yeah.

00:27:07
Speaker 1: I it's it's funny because that there's a I'm playing this round and I teed off at like five o'clock and you know, I just was flying, you know, nobody out in front of me. And I mean I was done at seven fifteen. But I remember, you know, I'm just booking it whole after a whole, I'm just playing it was It was one of those experiences that sometimes I feel like when you work in golf, you can deplete your golf soul a little bit, like where you get your you're so because it's your job. And I think this is a difference between what people don't realize about industry and I didn't realize before I got into it. And then got really busy in it is that like working in golf changes your relationship personally with golf.

00:27:52
Speaker 2: That's a super underrated it really does.

00:27:56
Speaker 1: And that round had like one of it was one of those moments where I felt like my youthful golf soul like re ignited in a way where I was out by myself, which was like it reminded me of the way I used to play as a kid, like chasing daylight and that walk from thirteen up to fourteen and you know, I'm playing really fast and I want to get it done. I got to record a podcast when I get done playing, and literally I got up to the top of that hill and I just like sat there for like five minutes because I was like, this is and the sun was just beaming down. It was a perfect night like through the trees, and that that whole cot, the trail system through that course, I think makes the experience because of the way the trails were almost constructed to make it just feel like a con It was incredible. I can't talk enough about trails, but.

00:28:58
Speaker 2: The same thing like a great you know, you see the same thing at Cypress Point for instance, right, some of the greatest walks from greens to teas and you have these, there's like several I can I mean again, we could talk about this forever. It's a super undervalued aspect of a great golf course. These like aha moments, Right, I'm never going to forget the first time I come around the corner on fifteen tea at Cypress. I'm never gonna forget that moment. Like it just your your mind is opened to things that aren't even golf related, right.

00:29:32
Speaker 1: I think there's also one when you're on five tea is like when you turn the corner on five T and it's like you that par five where you just are looking at the bunkering.

00:29:43
Speaker 2: And everything on that without a doubt, without a doubt. It's like walking from walking from the seventh green to the eighth t. Yeah, turn in the corner and you know you hit your eighth tee shot and you don't know where the golf ball is supposed to be. Oh, just aim at you know, just keep it left to the little the little scrub pine on the top of the hill there, right, you get you turn that corner on eight and you're like, really, like this is a golf hole? Are you kidding me? Mind? Blown you know, so those all those little walks, it just changes everything, right with the calf round.

00:30:20
Speaker 1: So you're you're getting this great experience and you might not have been fully aware of everything you were learning at the time. And but with that regard, how have you have you is it shaped or changed the way you've done anything where you've you know, enhanced the walking experience at a course that you've worked at.

00:30:47
Speaker 2: Oh for sure, I mean that was one of the things. You know, even in coming to my current position where we've talked about this a lot. You know, when you talk about what you know, think about your top five best golf experiences you've ever had, right, and how it really is you know, your day becomes a story or becomes a journey, right, And it's again in the private club world, it's well and frankly at Bandon, I mean it's one of the best service experiences you're ever going to get, you know, whether it's in the restaurant or the shuttle driver, or your hotel concierge or whoever. Right, it's the same thing here where our focus is really about your experience as a whole, whether it's from the minute you pull in the parking lot to finishing year round, to having a great meal, a great drink, you know, being greeted properly, all those things. It's one big, long journey, and you know, when you like, in my case, we really focus heavily on attention to detail. There's a thousand things that occur on a golf course every day, on great golf courses that golfers aren't going to know. If they're not done, they're not going to notice. They're not going to notice if every edge isn't perfect, or every you know, landscape bed isn't perfectly weeded or perfectly maintained, or bunkers aren't raked a certain way. They're not necessarily going to notice all those things. They're going to notice green speeds and firmness and things like that, but all those little details. You don't know why a round of golf is better, You just know it is right. They're not going to see it. We're paid to see it. We're paid to understand that and to address it. But when all those little things are right, you get done with your round and you're like, why was it better? I don't know why it was better, but it was just exceptional, right, and great golf courses highly maintained, whether you're looking at it from an architecture perspective like you would at the bandoned courses, or you're looking at it you know the Madison Club or the Vintage or or you know Augusta or any endless golf courses. You could talk about great places, but you ye, golfer isn't going to notice a lot of those little things. But when it's all addressed and it's all in its place and it's all right, they just know it's better. And that's what we kind of talk about here.

00:33:10
Speaker 1: Now for a quick break from our sponsor. For more than a century, with cutting edge turf equipment and irrigation solutions, Toro has had your front nine covered and your back nine two. In fact, Toro's always had your back period. Toro is as committed to your long term success as tour pros are conmmitted to their shot. That's down to top notch customer support from Toro and it's dedicated local distributors, both of whom are passionate about delivering turf equipment and irrigation solutions that solve real world problems. Follow at Toro Golf on Twitter and reach out to your local Toro distributor today. Now back to Josh Lewis, how much tougher is it you've worked at Pasa Tiempo, abandoned course, abandoned courses, Chambers Bay. How much tougher is it to do to have that level of attention to detail at a course that has, you know, high volume of golf being played at.

00:34:07
Speaker 2: It's difficult, I mean, and it's just different. Right. One of my good buddies is Brian Palmer, right, and me and BP talk about this all the time. Now he's at Terry Ed spent some time in the sand Belt, I mean, talk about living the dream. But there's this, you know, with abandoned courses, with Pasa Tiempo, with that more natural look, that kind of that rugged look. Chambers was the same thing. You There's this balance, right of high attention to detail without losing the natural appeal of the land and the and the sand forms and all these other things. And I remember he Brian messaged me after he got to visit Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath and a couple of the top stand Belt course and he goes, I found the Holy Grail. He's like these guys have figured out the perfect balance between exceptional attention to detail and maintaining a natural appearance to the golf course. It's one of the hardest things to do is to balance the natural appearance. Don't you know, don't take away from that sand dune, don't take away from that rugged bunker edge. If that if that edge collapses, you know, clean it up and make it look like that was the way it was supposed to be, right. I remember Tom Doak talking about Pacific Dunes and even Old MacDonald in the fact that you know, they construct these golf courses and they look incredible and he's like, yeah, but it won't look good for like two to three seasons. It needs to weather. I'm like, a golf course needs to weather, and yeah, the wind needs to blow it around, needs to blow the sand around. Some of those edges need to crumble and collapse and things like that. But how you maintain those things and that balance between attention to detail and natural and rugged appearance, it's like one of the hardest things to do in golf at a high level.

00:36:02
Speaker 1: It's almost like when you get a pair of jeans and like the first time you wear them, they're a little bit, you know, and then the more and more you wear them, the better and better they just feel. And the you know, that is probably and I think a lot of people are afraid of that new like they have something work done and it looks new, and people love that new look, and then they don't like when it goes away from that.

00:36:30
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I think it's you know, we've seen that with we saw that with Chambers, we saw that with Bandon and things like that. And there's there's a certain group, you know, Bandon's got groups that have been coming for you know, eighteen nineteen years in a row, and they're just they love it and it's this buddy trip they do every year and they're just embraced. Well, there was also a time where a lot of people would show up and just not get it, Like, what do you mean Brown Fairways? I don't understand. You know, what do you mean that Bunker's not raked perfectly? Green's are only rolling, you know and a half in the morning. I don't understand. Well, it's like, well, because by one o'clock with the wind, they're gonna roll twelve and you won't be able to play them. So we had that there was always that scenario where some people just didn't want to embrace it, and that's okay, it's not their style, you know. But they're to a point now to where there's still a lot of people out there. And I credit what the Kaisers have done. I credit with some of the other developers have done in really presenting that style of golf. There's been a huge educational period with that with the golfing public, and their eyes have been opened and their minds have been open. My mind was opened right during construction phase. Isn't working there to what the possibilities are and every edge doesn't necessarily have to be perfect, you know. That being said, the world I work in now, it's a different attention to detail. Every edge is you know, it does need to be perfect. We do need to have every weed, we do need to have all that stuff needs to be pristine. It's just a bit of a shift.

00:38:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk a little bit about the transition from you know, high end resort. You know, Posita Tiempo is one of the most unique places with the dynamic there with the public and the private model, and then you're at Chambers Bay, which is you know, essentially municipal and technically you know, the municipal high round volume champion, you know US Open, and then you come and do the private thing. So what was it like going from you know, essentially high highest volume you could get to in public to this is the private culture in San Francisco.

00:38:50
Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, I guess the way I look at it, it might be a little bit different from some in that I like to challenge myself constantly totally, and so you know, I start out at a you know, blue collar public private golf course, right then you go to the highest end resort you can get to between them and pebble like That's pretty much. It really developed there over the course of about seven years. And then, like you said, once I finished school at at Oregon State, spent about ten months at Eugene Country Club kind of interning things like that. That's where I got my first taste and more of the high end private and then you know, and then ending up at Pasa Tiempo as an assistant kind of after graduation again from there to you know, crazy high end municipal championship level at Chambers Bay and then and of course coming back to high end private. Every single move right has presented its own level of challenges and things that you have to make adjustments to. There's no greater challenge or less challenge at any one place. It's just different levels of different types of challenge, right. It's it's really not as different as you would think. In all honesty, people are the same people or people, you know. It's basically, do you want to deal with not having constant contact in the public realm? You know? That was part of our challenge, is that you just didn't have that relationship ability to build those over time like you do in the private side. That being said, there's challenges associated with that too, you know. And people play the same golf course multiple times a week, you know, so they're seeing every little change that happens. So I think it's on the one hand, it's been great for me because it's made me a little eclectic, I guess in this industry and having touched on a lot of different things. But that's a ill like that like that term well rounded. You absolutely is.

00:41:03
Speaker 1: It, because I think about this a lot and I'm I think working outside of golf really helps me with golf because I have that experience of perspective for you when you're you can talk to any superintendent and really have some sort of some level of empathy for what they're going through because you've worked at every type of facility, which is so what I guess what would you say is like if you look through you've been a lot of places, You've done a lot, You've had a lot of crazy experiences. You know, in this time, like what was if you could synthesize like one big takeaway that you took from each of these spots, what would it be?

00:41:47
Speaker 2: That's a big question. That's a big question. Be humble. I think that's part of that's something that transcends every job in turf, no matter what. Like one of the reasons I love working in turf and working in nature is because it doesn't care, doesn't care what your net worth is, it doesn't care how good looking you are, it doesn't care. I mean, none of it matters. I mean this year was a perfect example in northern California. Right we had effectively no winter. So from about January tenth or so, we haven't had rain, we haven't had we've had seventy plus degrees. The trees bloomed a month early. The turf was reacting in February like it reacts in April. You know, we're handwatering all winter. Like. Having conversations with people, I said, you know, you do realize grass doesn't have a calendar. It doesn't care, none of it matters. So I think in every place, in every position I've ever been, and I have had opportunities to work for some incredible people in this business and work around them and have people around me that are, you know, some of the top industry folks. That's been the one takeaway is in everything you do, stay humble, because as good as it is one day, it can be equally bad the next.

00:43:26
Speaker 1: I totally I feel like that's like totally turf where you can because you get those those weeks where you probably feel like you're on top of the world when the weather's been good and the course is playing just right the way you want it, every member loves it, and then you just have these weather events that just pop in and can just so with with rain. Obviously, being in an area that goes through really big droughts, you know, the lack of rain in these winter months has to be pretty concerning.

00:44:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it. Unfortunately we've gotten to be and again again. I mean, I'm not a California native. I come from one of the wettest parts of the country in the Northwest. But between Pasta Tiampo and now this this time down here, I think I've lived in California for seven or eight years now total, so I've gotten a pretty good sample size. I have some great friends who have been here a lot longer. But it's kind of become the norm. We've had to get used to this. I mean, when it kind of turned off in January, we're like, all right, here we go. It's one of those winters, you know, and you just kind of buckle in and you go, and it is what it is. It's no different than the challenges that you know, guy's face with too much train. You know, I listened to I had to do some homework for this podcast. So of course a good buddy of mine's Matthew Wharton, and so I was listening to his podcast that you guys did at GIS, and you know, here he is talking about just getting pummeled with rain, just stupid amounts of rain, and you know, high humidity and you know all these other things. Well, we don't have to deal with that here. We get to deal with two hundred and fifteen plus days a year straight without any rain, you know, and so we become very good irrigators. We become very good. You know, everything has to be adjusted, every head has to be perfect, every everything. So when we get into these situations, our biggest concern is that we can usually handle one of these winters. But if we get into a situation like we did a few years ago where we had you know, five year drought where we were getting you know, these guys were getting I wasn't here at the time, I was at Chambers, but we were getting you know, four inches of rain for a year. It's like then you start to deal with a lot of government interactions, a lot of restrictions, mandatory things like that, Guys getting shut off, guys, you know, it's it's a different ballgame then. So, yeah, we're concerned a lot more concerned if we get another one of these winters next year, because that's when a lot of this stuff's going to start to come crashing down.

00:46:07
Speaker 1: That's it just compiles and everything kind of Yeah, it makes sense, especially with how do you how do you being in a spot where you don't get a lot of water, how do you toe the line between presenting the course with you know, what members want versus like the sustainability arm of golf.

00:46:27
Speaker 2: That's another big question. I think it comes back to education. You know. It's a constant conversation, and you know, I'm fortunate to be at a place like this that have given a lot of thought for many, many years to our biggest issue here, our biggest natural resource issue, which is water. You know, really, I think water independence is a huge thing. Getting off of pottable water, getting you know, in California, that's been a huge, huge push, not just from regulatory agencies and governments and things like that, but superintendents have really pushed hard to do what's right, you know, and whether that's an educational process with a membership or with their golfing public, with their ownership whatever, they've been advocates for becoming more sustainable with that. So we're not there yet, We're not perfect, but we're definitely getting there. And it is a balance because the expectations are through the roof for turf conditions and playability and things like that, and because we do live in a twelve month golf market where people have the same expectations. You know, you have a dry winter, the expectations are the golf courses as good in January and February as it is in you know, June or July. So the expectations are high as they should be because it's it's that's the climate here, whether we're talking about golf, where we're talking about business, or we're talking about you know, progressive thinking or whatever, it's just a it's a high energy locale.

00:48:07
Speaker 1: How do you have you seen the culture around golf the expectations of golfers change because of the popularity of places like Bandon, Chambers Bay would come to mind in the sense of the brown and then even like places like Shinakok, you know, restoring courses have do you do you feel in your time in the industry that people have become more open to less irrigated courses and more naturally presented courses.

00:48:42
Speaker 2: Not really, I mean, unfortunately, I think there's we always used to have this conversation at Bandon and Chambers both right and I used to have some good buddies in the private club world and whatnot in Seattle and Tacoma area, and we'd always have these chats about you know, well, it's okay at Chambers, but it's not okay at you know, X y Z club. The same person can go play Chambers or band and just be in love with it and go home and it's you know, that brown spot's not supposed to be there, or that bunker's not perfectly raked. I don't think it's what I've I guess the realization I've come to is I don't think it's their I don't think that's necessarily bad. I don't think that's their fault. I don't think it's you know, a lack of golf IQ or anything else. I think it's when they go to those places. They're good with it because it's a departure, it's a trip, it's a it's an event, it's a a time that's out of their normal routine. In their normal routine. They want what they know they want, you know, they want edges, they want green, they want this, they want that. You know, there's a small percentage of people that have really embraced that. And you see clubs like bally Neal or you know, sand Hills or something cow Club, you know, and that's a conversation we have all the time as we look at you know, clubs in the area on the peninsula here up into the city and and you know, the reality is is that Cow Club has just owned what they are. They love it and that's and the membership has embraced it, and the people that are there love it and and that's great, and it's not necessarily what our membership wants. And that's okay. You know. I think the biggest thing is understand who you are, Know what your identity is. Understand your identity as a club or as a golf course or as a resort or whatever, and be the best you you can be. And whatever people want, they're going to gravitate to that, you know. But don't blame people or or throw people under the bus because they can't embrace you know, not everybody's gonna love that. Look, that's okay, you.

00:50:57
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, I mean, and that's like the thing I think that people gets lost is like there is market for everything, you know, in golf. Like it's just the same way as like I might not like a restaurant, but I like another restaurant. We we might disagree on which one's better, but that's okay. And it's it's so weird because golf it's got this like it's like if you say something that's at all critical people, it's like you're criticizing their firstborn child. And what I it's just a it's a really just the role golf has in people's lives and the way it is, it's unlike any other industry really in the in the sense of pride somebody has in their home course, it's not they don't carry that same sense of pride and so many other aspects of their life and it So let's talk a little bit about Chambers and we tell you touched on it earlier, like with that with the conditioning that brown, and how hard was it dealing with people that just like would come there and think you were doing like a bad job because it was brown, and and you know, like in a way like that just the the misunderstanding of what it was supposed to be. Like, in a sense, you're doing a great job, but the vast majority of people thought golf should be something that nice, that high end golf was something else than what you were presenting.

00:52:35
Speaker 2: I think that you know, you talk about the takeaways from each place I've ever been, right, and one of the biggest takeaways from that scenario, and Bannon, frankly was exactly what you just referenced, is that we can have different opinions on what greatness looks like or what good is and that's okay. Like, I think that's one of the benefits that I've got in having worked in all facets of golf, is that I can have a conversation with somebody about you know, perfectly green, lush, rye grass, you know whatever, and then I can go have a conversation with somebody about, you know, find fescue and firm and fast and rugged and playability and all this other stuff. I think what happens over time. At first it used to really bother me. It's like guy just doesn't get it. Then I'm like, difference doesn't make like it doesn't matter. The bottom line here is is that people aren't always going to agree, and that's okay. Whether it's politics, whether it's restaurants, whether it's life choices, or whether it's golf policies on coronavirus' you know, hey, if what would what would the world be if we didn't have great polarizing conversations to have, right? You know, The interesting thing about Chambers was is I was able to develop some really cool relationships via social media with you know, some of the some of the great greenkeepers in the UK over the course of that time, because we had a lot of similarities, right, and a lot of times I've got fine fescu questions or whatever, and who am I going to reach out to? Well, probably reach out to the guys over there. So it built great relationships leading up to that, even to the point that you know, the old course was hosting the Open Championship in twenty fifteen when we were hosting the US Open, so we were prepping on the same timeline. So had some great conversations with them. And I remember a message that I got kind of during the US Open and how the golf course was presented and all of the chaos surrounding it and everybody freaking out about what it looked like on TV, Gary play Gary Playery. Well, you're really dredging up some great memories for me. Andy, I'm so glad I did this. But generally speaking, like I remember walking the golf course in the evening and then going in and looking at it on TV and I'm like, it's not the same place. I mean it looked completely different in person from what it was what it looked like on TV. Whether it be filters, whether or whatever, Right, it didn't matter, it doesn't matter.

00:55:20
Speaker 1: But there's nothing quite like when the when the tour or the TV drops down the saturation filter, it just pops the saturation enough Jackson up. They did did a trinity for us.

00:55:32
Speaker 2: I'm drast is off right whatever it's like, you know, I talk with those guys in the trailer, but but we were looking at it from a fescue presentation going you know, I mean those fairways were about as perfect as it gets from what we were trying to present. It was great, right, I.

00:55:54
Speaker 1: Mean the proof was in what the player like. When you heard the player caddy commerce that week, it was incredible because they were talking about trajectory, where the ball was going to land and the shape of the shot going into it, which is that's the ultimate that's the ultimate presentation because it's literally every single factor of the golf shot had to be measured in order to hit a great golf shot.

00:56:24
Speaker 2: Well, and that was exactly right. And and I I mean I've gone full circle on this thing. I refuse to be defensive about what we did, because I think we nailed it personally, but it is what it is. There are several factors that add up to that. The one thing you can't argue with is that leaderboard. I mean, the leaderboard spoke for itself. It was it was loaded. You know, the top twenty. I want to say there was like twelve of the top twenty in the top twenty of the tournament or something crazy like that. Super exciting, Like I mean it, when you really break it down, what are you gonna you know, that's how you gauge a championship. But regardless of that, in my conversations with with the guys over overseas, I mean I remember a message that I got and I said, fantastic, you guys crushed it. Nobody's gonna understand it, but you guys nailed it. And that was exactly it. Nobody understood it, and it was just it just you know, if you talk about this situation, you know, in a massive drought twenty years from now, maybe chemicals get restricted, maybe fertilizer applications get restricted, maybe water use gets restricted, and all of a sudden, people are going back. Oh maybe they were just way ahead of their time in that presentation, right, and talking with like Gordon he was having a year at the old course where they were just getting pummeled with rain, right, and he goes, you guys got crushed because you had a hot, dry spring and the golf course was bread, which is exactly what you honestly wanted to present. He goes, you watch, he goes, We're going to get crucified because the golf course is too green and soft and it's all been because of rain, and there's nothing we can do. And it's exactly how it played out, you know. So it's it's all about It's all about, you know, opinions and to your point, like whether we're talking golf course architecture, golf course presentation, or PGA tour versus USGA versus PGA of America, everybody's got their opinions and we all want to have spirited conversation. And I would just wish that as a group we could all just get along to a point that we can disagree and still be friends.

00:58:39
Speaker 1: I think that's the the thing you touched on is that Chambers pushed the conventions of what a US open is supposed to be in people's minds to a extreme, and when that happens, you're going to get polarizing and there's gonna be people that love it. And then what you touch is ironically like you essentially were the Open Championship and they had the playing conditions that like of probably what we'll see it at wing Foot because it's going to rain in Westchester County in June. Like it's just gonna happen. We're gonna have a soft, lush course like that you just happen to be in a situation. And and the other aspect of it is like this, if this is our US US Open, our US Championship, with the way our country is constructed, in the different grasses and climate zones of the country, there should be huge variety in the way these courses are presented because each of them should represent a different part of the country absolute well.

00:59:45
Speaker 2: And that's and that's exactly it, and that's what people miss with golf and honestly golf course presentation, right, is that part of the beauty of golf is the variability from day to day, from hole to hole. I mean, we used to see we used to joke around in when I was at Bandon in particular, because it was very it was very common for us to literally get four seasons in a day. We'd get sun, we'd get rain, we'd get hail, we'd get a little snow, we'd get wind, we'd get and it's like in the course of a four or five hour round of golf, all of a sudden, like you're getting wind, direction, changes, you're getting you could play the same golf course every day and get a different golf course every day. That's awesome, right, Why would you want to play I mean, we have this conversation all the time about golf course setup, right, par three like par three set up in particular. I've had this conversation with members historically, not at this club, but prior clubs, and they're like, you know, I paced off the par three's today and they were they were like five yards off the marker, and I went, yeah, sometimes I'm even going to put the markers on different t decks completely, Well, you can't do that. It messes with the slope and rating. And I said, no, it really doesn't. I said, why would you want to hit an eight iron every single time that you play that part three? You want some variability in golf that's a good thing. We want some unknowns. We want It's a nature game, right, And that's the thing about links golf to me that's so great is that you could land a shot. You know, you're never playing to the cup. You're playing to where you want the ball to land, and then where you want the ball to end up after bounce and roll. Right. So I was giving you a grief on Twitter about your contour video the other day, but that's the reality. You can hit. You can play the same golf hole, hit two beautiful shots into a great part four, land the ball two feet one direction or the other, ended up with a completely different outcome, right because it might have bounced twenty yards left because you hit the wrong side of a bump, or you know, hey it didn't rain today, it rained yesterday. It was a little firmer, a little softer. Why is that a bad thing? You know?

01:02:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, you want a place at That's why I always I was walking around with a superintendent in Chicago a couple of years ago and we were just talking about his golf course, which I had played a few times in tournaments, and this really tough part three, but it had this cool back bowl and I was like, and we were. I played it, you know, a late night one night, and me and my buddies had played earlier, and we played it as like one hundred and twenty yard from the forward t par three and the pin was in the bowl and literally we had two balls lip out. And I was telling him about it, and I was like, you guys got use that as like a te for like your invitational. And he's like, members would freak out. I'm like, would they freak out when like three people get home ones and edged? The course is just a riot for the day, Like like being able to do that, like the flexibility, Like I'd love to see us get to a place where sometimes the back t is ahead of the forward tea on a given hole because you're trying to make the variability. That's something like with my events we do that I try and do is like I try and use like almost like different teas on the back because I want people to play a whole one day as one round as four to forty in the next round is three point fifty, just to show how if it's greens really interesting, it's like so much different playing it with different shots into it. And that's the thing that people lose is like it's only going to make the game more interesting the more variety that you're able to establish. Something we were just talking about that it triggered is Garrett, our managing editor, just did this great podcast on a sense of place and the superintendent's role in establishing a golf course's sense of place is so huge. I mean in working at Bandon, and I think that's the thing that Trails excels at so much, Like how have you kind of gone about establishing like thinking of sense of place as you go around?

01:04:18
Speaker 2: Well, I think you know, we have this conversation about about scale a lot, right, and you know in that in that kind of that dark dark the dark ages of golf course architecture eight that sixties fifties, sixties seventies, you know, there seems to have been a loss of that concept. Right. It was all about let's get these golf courses in around these home sites and make this all work. So that's something that I look at here. You know, even from an understanding, we have a lot of you know, established redwood trees and and some native and things like that, and in these in these areas, it's even just even thinking about, you know, what the what the size of the mulch area and the tree well should be underneath in comparison to how much rough you have and how much fairway you have, and what the green sizes are, and how everything just kind of fits together, right, and that.

01:05:19
Speaker 1: You're dealing with. What I think people forget is like those redwoods create a massive vertical scale, which makes it hard to fit and make everything else fit and look appropriate.

01:05:33
Speaker 2: Oh completely completely, And and you that's a great point when you think about when you think about scale on a three dimensional level, right, And so you know, and that and that presentation like, uh, there's been a project here the last couple of years to raise a lot of the skirts of the trees up to improve air movement, kind of open up some views things like that even if we're not necessarily removing the trees, we can we can clean them up to where you can see through. And just that in itself has changed scale and presentation on the golf course, like what the feel is, how how sound moves through the property, how you know you can yell across at the fair way across from you your body, you know, and and talk trash in your money game or whatever. You know, it's like all those things kind of figure into it in my opinion. But when you look at the great golf course architecture out there, and I mean the trails is a great example of that, everything out there just works together. It just works together, whether it's the naturalized native areas that we spent a year revegetating, or the bunkers that are built that have now you know, been wind blown and weathered, and you know, it all just works.

01:06:53
Speaker 1: You know.

01:06:54
Speaker 2: Now you see that across across the board though in great architecture, Yeah.

01:07:00
Speaker 1: It does all work together. And I think that it all works together though with like you go to some places that I went to a place that opened a couple of years ago and it was like fantastic when it opened, but the maintenance, and I think that it's more of an ownership mentality maintenance where they had other golf courses and those other golf courses are maintained and presented a certain way, and they took this golf course and tried to put them in a box. And then I went back and I just like, you know, it only been a couple of years and I just was astonished. I like it I couldn't believe. And that's where I think what you're talking about with like how you're thinking about the scale is so important because like each property is so different, like and there's no uniform way to get there because everything like what you're dealing with redwood trees, like you can't you know, like sheep ranch for example, which has basically no trees you know outside of a couple, is not gonna like that. You can't present your course the way they did. And I think that's one of the one of the sometimes one of the issues that we get into is this group think, you know, this is the way it should be, and this is the way it is, but like thinking about your specific property and in its own right is the way to do it, you know, because everything has to work here.

01:08:19
Speaker 2: Well. And that's that's the that's the culmination of a lot of the conversation we've had today, honestly, in that every property has a unique scenario, right, And that's again I reference back to that the one thing I've pulled from every place I've ever been, which is humility that ties right into being judgmental and being being one of these people that shows up at a golf course and goes, well, that's that's terrible, Like why is it that way? Well, what's going on? You don't know what the unique circumstances are surrounding any one situation. You don't have any integral knowledge of that. You're literally a guy that showed up and starts looking at stuff and just starts judging things because you don't know what's going on. Every property is unique in its situation, its challenges, how it should be presented, And I guess that's you know, a lot of the guys that I've become friends with, I mean again, I reference like Matthew Wharton. One of the things that we've always talked about is how as a superintendent, you're really a caretaker of that property, right, the great caretakers of properties. You know. One of my mentors, one of the people I have immense amount of respect for, is Jeff Marco at Ciper's point, the ultimate caretaker. Right, He's responsible not only for the condition and the presentation of that golf course on a daily basis, but he's he's responsible for golf history, the piece of art. Right, it's his time in the history of that golf course. Right, He's one of a handful of people that has had the opportunity to be caretaker of a property that is that transcends golf. It's bigger than us, it's bigger than any of the members. It's bigger. It's a it's a national treasure, right, And so Jeff is one of the most humble, kind, genuine people that I've ever met. Yet he sits atop a role, you know, in charge of something that's just a masterpiece, and you go the way he approaches it is such that it's just my time in history to take care of this treasure, you know. And I think that a lot of us look at it that way. We don't. We get caught up in our daily grind, but the bottom line is is like literally, here at Sharon Knights, this is just my stint in history to caretake for Sharon k Heights and hopefully make it better than when I came. And if everybody thinks about it that way, it's like it's like when you get up in the morning and really, if you only have one goal, which is to just be a little bit better than you were yesterday, imagine how good the world would be.

01:10:59
Speaker 1: It's the same way golf, right, I think we uh, we found our spot here. This is just part one. You know, who knows one. Part two will come out. This was a you know, we just covered I feel like it was a it was a very tied together conversation around really a lot of common themes. But you're you're active on on social networks. People can find your your twitter's cowboy, but you're you're the foremost cowboy. A few a few hundred people, a few hundred people will understand that, so people can find it. You're at the turf Yoda turf Yoda, right or just at the the the turf Yoda. And then on Instagram you're same, so people can find you there. You're you're active on there, and uh yeah, it's it's cool. That's how I learned so much just following you guys. Yeah. I I remember the last time I saw Tully, I was like, hey, how's that? He was testing out rye grass or something. Yeah, yeah, And I asked him, I was like, hey, how's it going. He goes, You've been paying attention, Like of course, you know, but yeah, it's it's a great community. So people can find you there and look forward to doing another one of these. Yeah.

01:12:27
Speaker 2: No, and I just thanks to you, this is a super cool opportunity, and we go back away, so it's it's super fun to be able to do this and and again yet one more thing to humble me. So it's good