Conservation Partnerships: An Alliance for All

00:00:04
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Rich Schwartz.

00:00:06
Speaker 2: When is the s World? Al Marco Wentz.

00:00:08
Speaker 1: Welcome to Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of wildlife from around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This podcast is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio and San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, an international nonprofit conservation organization which oversees the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park.

00:00:27
Speaker 2: You know, Rick, it really has been amazing and so much fun to go behind the scenes with countless wild life care staff this season.

00:00:34
Speaker 1: It's true, Marco. And last season we were able to have conversations with scientists, researchers, and even engineers who are all working on conservation projects here in San Diego and around the world.

00:00:44
Speaker 2: And I always love the fact that each person we talk to always mentions the need for everyone to work together right to make wildlife conservation successful, from our zoo teams to government agencies, volunteer groups and nonprofits. Oh and all the diverse communities and.

00:01:00
Speaker 1: Oh exactly exactly, And that need for different individuals and different groups to work together for conservation was.

00:01:07
Speaker 3: True with the butterfly episode.

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Speaker 1: It's true with giant pandas, and that's why I'm looking forward to heading to the San Diego Zoo with you today. We're going to connect with someone who just so happens to know all about making conservation partnerships successful.

00:01:20
Speaker 2: Ooh, I'm super pumped because today feels like this time around we are going to go behind the scenes of conservation.

00:01:27
Speaker 3: Well that's actually pretty accurate.

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Speaker 4: I am Greg Uccino. I am the vice president of Wildlife Care for the San Diego Zoo.

00:01:36
Speaker 1: And right now, Greg, we're in your office, so we can hear outside the window we are. Your office is in the zoo itself, so we are hearing some of the movement of the trucks because we're working for by the warehouse office scenes from the guest area.

00:01:47
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:01:48
Speaker 1: You and I have a bit of history in the sense of.

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Speaker 3: You started here at the zoo win two thousand and seven, and it was.

00:01:55
Speaker 1: Shortly after that you were brought into what was.

00:01:57
Speaker 3: The children's Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a couple of years and when you were over there.

00:02:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I was just leaving the children soo to start the ambassador work.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for that, by the way, Now you're welcome.

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Speaker 1: But it was really great getting to know you in that capacity as a supervisor of that department, and over the years your role has grown quite a bit and you're now the VP of Wildlife Care. Can you explain to our audience what that means.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's a relatively new position. The position, that role has existed for a long time, and so, like historically would have called it a general curator, right, so the general curator would be the head of the wildlife care program. So all of the curators and associate curators were report up to the general curator. And then as the roles evolved and as we realized that, like we're not just doing curatorial work, and curatorial work would be a lot of administrative work, like managing the populations, deciding how many of this species needs to be here, and working with partners, zoos and all that to make sure you're sustaining the population that's here. We do a lot more, right, So that role has taken on a lot more. So there's a lot of leadership, there's a lot of management, there's a lot of administrative work, and there's kind of like the external conservation work that I think post people don't really recognize. There's a lot of partnerships that are formed with federal agencies. There are partnerships that were formed with NGOs, other government entities, other fish and wildlife services from other governments. You form relationships with those folks, all in the interest of balancing both what's happening here on grounds and how that's impacting our conservation efforts outside.

00:03:25
Speaker 2: I really appreciate you bringing that up, because we talk a lot about our partnerships around the world. I mean, it's so cool that your role is to oversee the general population and wildlife care here at the Zoo, but also managing partner relationships. I mean, anybody who's listened to the podcast and knows we talk a lot about how our conservation efforts and our work with wildlife is not done alone, right. I mean, for example, our most recent episode highlighting the giant pandas, we discuss how we're working so closely with China for the pandas coming to the San Diego Zoo and for the conservation of giant pandas in general. Oh, or maybe a partners in megal right with the thick bill parrot or the Peninsula.

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Speaker 3: Problemar Yeah, that's a massive Pandora's box.

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Speaker 4: I mean you kind of like what you're doing right is you're opening up that doorway for conversations. You're building those relationships with you know, those are federal employees that are the ones that say yes or no to whether or not you can do conservation work in this national park right right, or whether or not you know, you can have biological samples that are critical for disease investigation, whether they're going to approve the permits for those to fly here to our diagnostic labs. So those relationships are critical, and going all the way back to two thousand and seven, you know, and you know we were much younger. You know, I was a little bit more naive. I know, it's new to the conservation field. I had done field work before, but I was new to like the actual conservation field, and I had this naive approach. Anybody knows me, he's heard this before, that conservation is just all we have to do is save habitats and safe species and everything will be fine. And you quickly find out that it's about people. Number one. It's always about people, right, It's about being respectful of the people who are sharing this space. It's about understanding their cultural sensitivities, understanding the ecological sensitivities of the area and truly being a partner, and it leads you to the one thing that you always take home and ultimately the one thing that I think helps me kind of be successful in this role as you learn very quickly not to take yourself too seriously, you know. And I think that's a huge trait because you know, you run into so many situations where you just want to be like, do you know who I am? And you realize how a how foolish that sounds, but also how useless it is because they truly are relationships that you build or work with the US Fish and Wildlife Service. I mean, that's had a fundamental impact on the respect we get and our ability to get through that process, you know, without those relationships with the biologists, with management authority, without the scientific authority, you know, being able to pick up the phone and talk to people that you know and you've worked with in different contexts.

00:05:55
Speaker 3: I don't think any of that really happens without that.

00:05:57
Speaker 1: It's great that you brought that up, Grig because near the end of last season, we talked with one of our conservationists about community conservation, and in that episode, it was highlighted that conservation is not just about going in and saving habitat. It's about the relationships with the people who live in near and around these habitats. And like you said, people aren't necessarily impressed with your title or where you're from. What matters is what kind of person you are and how you're going to show up for them. That's what's going to build those relationships, and that's what's going to help with the long term impact of wildlife conservation.

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Speaker 4: You know, then idea of community based conservation and partnerships and all that. One of the things that's going to sound counterintuitive, but one of the things that's helped our conservation program so much is we have great leadership from doctor Nadine Lamberski.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's the head of conservation.

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Speaker 4: And one of the first things she said in that role was we should go, Okay, what projects are you involved in? Well, I've got Hawaii, I've got this Kenya capacity building program, I've got side.

00:06:49
Speaker 3: These work, I've got this. She goes, what's your exit plan?

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Speaker 4: What? She goes, what's your exit plan for any of those? And I said, why would I want an exit plan?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

00:06:57
Speaker 4: You know, I'm trying to help, and she's like, you're not helping by staying there, right, You're not helping. I'm not you know, right, Like, how are you going to how are you going to capacity build? You're only successful if you walk out of there and the things that you've helped develop can grow without you.

00:07:14
Speaker 3: Nice And it's crazy, right, because.

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Speaker 4: I mean that's of course, like that's how we take our leadership roles, right, you know, we're always thinking about that. We're always thinking this crew needs to be able to work without me. Like, if I'm the key to this crew being successful, then there's a problem. I've done a poor job. It applies exactly to our conservation programs, and again it was really counterintuitive, but it's so liberating because you realize, I've got a time frame, right, I have to meet this capacity for these folks to really be effective. And I think that's probably been the biggest game changer when it comes to like the community based conservation is like we're not building those communities, We're just building some capacity in those communities. We're just reminding them of how their natural resources, how their natural heritage. Right, this is their heritage, right, They've lived with these animals, they've lived in this ecosystem seamlessly for eons. So how do we remind them of that by saying, we're not here to change anything, We're not here to mess anything up. We just want to fill in those little gaps that you've have. And again, you cannot find those gaps if you're not listening, right right, That's the biggest thing, is you see you know again when you come in with the you know, I'm the great Hero from San Diego Zoo, and you know who I am. You're not listening, so you don't hear anything.

00:08:30
Speaker 2: I mean, of course our listeners know that I'm a bird of these now, right, so I'm sure no one will be surprised. But this next question, now, I've heard about this also being our approach to bird conservation work we do out in the islands of Hawaii. Now I was curious, can you share with us and to our listeners the details of the conservation work being done out there.

00:08:48
Speaker 4: Yeah, so we've had the Hawaiian Dangered Bird Conservation Program has been a partnership with the State of Hawaii and the federal government and a couple of other smaller NGOs for decades now. And really, you know, islands are again when we talk about conservation, islands are those places where it's really dire, right, it's isolated, you know, and especially the mill Pacific Ocean, right, habitats are easily impacted by invasive species and things like that, and there's a lot of diversity on those islands, namely avian.

00:09:18
Speaker 3: Diversity, so a lot of birds, a lot of diverse.

00:09:20
Speaker 4: Birds, honeycreepers, forest birds, and of course the famous a La la the Hawaiian crow, which is extinct in the wild. So we've been running a conservation breeding program there for a couple decades. So doctor Ron sways Good and Megan Owen are involved in that and they do a fantastic job on the research side, right, So we've learned a lot about the behavioral biology of these birds, how these animals interact with the environment, all of those types of things. But it truly is a wildlife care program at the end of the day. Right at the end of the day, you're taking care of birds that are in human care, and you're trying to breed them, and you're trying to have successful offspring that are reared by their parents and all of that. So a couple of years back, we made this switch and we said, let's pull the care staff out there, let's pull them into the wildlife care program. So they came into my program, and we were able to take the advances in wildlife care that we use at the zoo and the park and directly translate those to these conservation breeding programs and vice versa. Right, so we were able to learn, like, what makes an animal successful, what are the behavioral characteristics that make it successful? How do we then build those into the care programs. So there's the science side of it, right, Then there's the art side of it, is that these birds are incredibly important to the Hawaiian people and incredibly important to their culture, and the land is incredibly important, right.

00:10:38
Speaker 1: I think that's something a lot of people also don't always realize. We're take into consideration. We talk about the relationship with the people, but it's the culture of those people and what the land represents for their culture, what these species of wildlife represent for their culture. And that was one of the first I think big eye openers for me when I went to Maui for the Bird Conservation Center over there and realize that there was so much about the representation of these species existing just for the culture of the people, and yet because of invasive species and other issues that are beyond just fencing off an area in Sabing. Yeah, it's impacting the culture, the idea of these species going away forever. So I love that you brought that up.

00:11:19
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so again, this is like so intuitive. It makes so much sense when you really dig into it. It's like ancient Hawaiians knew the role that these animals played.

00:11:29
Speaker 1: Maintain system, which is what humans live off of exactly.

00:11:31
Speaker 4: Right, Like they know what they pollinate, they know that, Like I mean that price Mstuda did a study on Ala Lai years ago that showed that like germination rates for native plant species that go through the digestive system of a crow germanate eighty percent better. Right, And it's the native plants that do not the invasive place, right. It's fascinating.

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Speaker 3: Right.

00:11:51
Speaker 4: So there's that, right, and there's that connection, and it's kind of neat, and you know you have to take your hat off and say okay, So as an admirer of this culture of that, I had kind of to step outside of that to stay in my role as working with conservation, but you better be respectful, you better recognize it, you better see it, and you better hear it. And we had a lot of staff turning and what ended up happening was hiring a lot of Hawaiians.

00:12:15
Speaker 3: Which traditionally wasn't the case.

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Speaker 4: You know, And so now it's like the culture is leading into the programs. And Jess and I were just there and a little akakiki had hatched, and the supervisor at the center called everybody in to the room where the little baby was and did a traditional chance and it was like, wow, this feels right, you know, like this feels like the way this is supposed to go, not SOPs and forums, and this is the way we do it at San Diego Zoo. You know, we have all that stuff too, but this was the most important part was hearing that song, you know, welcoming that bird back to where it belongs.

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Speaker 3: It was really cool. That was amazing.

00:12:57
Speaker 2: Nic Greg, your background and a lot of your history here at the San Diego Zoo is based in behavior. You do a lot of work with studying how the wildlife can express natural behaviors. Can you go a little more into that for all audience?

00:13:10
Speaker 4: Yeah, So we kind of put together this program. We realize it's the relationship that they form with their environment, and as the environment changes, do they have enough of a behavioral repertoire to deal with those little changes, whether those are subtle changes or significant changes. That's exactly what they need for being reintroduced in the wild. That is exactly what they need to survive in a new habitat, right, especially if you're talking about like a translocation where an animal is going from northern Kenya to having to live in central or southern Kenya and it's an elephant, right, there's a whole.

00:13:42
Speaker 3: Lot of stuff that has to learn.

00:13:43
Speaker 4: And we realize that we weren't teaching those behaviors in the zoo.

00:13:48
Speaker 3: Even though we could, and even though nobody here.

00:13:51
Speaker 4: At this zoo in downtown San Diego is likely to go back to their native habitat. What's wrong with finding out how they learn those skills? What's wrong with trying to teach them all those skills? And if we do that, we're forcing ourselves into a situation. We have to provide such a dynamic environment for them that they are actually expressing species specific behavior, They are actually making choices and those choices are relevant to outcomes that mean something to them. Once we have that framework, we apply it directly to the conservation programs.

00:14:22
Speaker 3: So that's the.

00:14:23
Speaker 4: Thing that really wakes me up and gets me out of bed right is knowing that we're not just throwing money at problems, like we're actually throwing these techniques at it, and they can work right well.

00:14:34
Speaker 1: And to your point, maybe nobody here in the San Diego Zoo proper in downtown San Diego is going to find themselves going back and being reintroduced to their native habitat, but their offspring lite or their offspring's offspring, or the data and information we gather from that experience here can be applied to somewhere that that is going to happen. And that's what I think is so fascinating is that, you know, it almost reflects back to the concept of starting the Frozen Zoo, where at the time the science didn't exist, we weren't really sure why we needed to do it, but we did it, and now here we are, you know, fifty some years later, it's like, oh, this is great, Like how much we can do now? Sort of the same idea in the sense of we are studying the behavior. We're creating opportunities for them to have choice and control, creating opportunities for them to express their behavior repertoire as you say. And yeah, maybe right now today that's just that animal experiencing those things and doing those things and someone recording it and documenting it. But ten years from now that could be incredibly valuable information for setting up a program where we introduce that species back into their environment.

00:15:36
Speaker 2: One hundred percent a me ego before we went out of time with you, I want to make sure we cover the work that is being done with Sieis. I mean, you mentioned something about it before we started recording, and I kind of want to make sure our audience learns about it. I guess can you start with what does scieties mean?

00:15:51
Speaker 4: So that's the Convention on the International Trade of Endangered Species of Flora and Fauna.

00:15:56
Speaker 3: It's a mouthful, it is. I can see why I use the acronyms.

00:15:59
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's basically like a peace treaty, right, It's a treaty is signed by one hundred and eighty three different countries. It's the rules that we use all of our fish and Wildlife services, scientific and Management authorities of each of these countries. It's the rules that they use to say it's okay to transport this animal from here to here if it's an endangered species, right, and you have to have good reason for it.

00:16:21
Speaker 1: Right.

00:16:21
Speaker 4: It can't be for financial gain. It has to be contributing to scientific research and has to have a non detriment to the wild population. There has to be enhancements to the wild population in order to do it. And it's not just for zoos and things like that, right, you know, lots and lots and lots of countries. This is a big part of their economy. So it's a treaty that's signed through the un EP of the United Nations Environmental Program, So it's a United Nations thing, right, super cool, like especially if you're a nerd. Right, it's totally you know, you get to sit there in the big in Geneva with the microphone and the translator headphones and all that and all the you know, the technical terms and all of the chair recognizes delegate from it's super neat. You would never guess this, but this is where all of the language and all of the laws come from that says whether or not you can trade in these animals. Trade sounds very clinical, but it's really what's happening.

00:17:14
Speaker 1: And again the trade being for the purpose of benefiting the species.

00:17:17
Speaker 3: Benefiting the species, but it also.

00:17:19
Speaker 1: Protects and from what we've talked about in this podcast before too, which is illegal.

00:17:22
Speaker 3: Wildlife trade one hundred and so people are doing it for the pet trade beside these.

00:17:26
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean the term trade is important because it's regulated for the benefit of the species, right, I mean, like you said, it's kind of a technical term, but it does have an important role in this whole concept of protection under international laws.

00:17:38
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and we're also tasked with kind of looking at trade patterns. Wow, this many of this species which we don't identify as threatened have been traded. And we're talking about things like for food and fiber, right, you know, fish sharks, those types of things. You know, like there are some island nations where the entire industry, the economic industry, is fishing, and are we monitoring those stocks? Do we know if that trade needs to be regulated, does it need to be regulated at a higher rate, what's the language that you would put in to have it regulated. And on the trafficking side, you know, like vast majority of what side is about is the capacity building for those the one guy that's at the border, providing them with the resources to training and all that stuff. It's a fascinating side of conservation that I think people probably don't recognize. And I think it says something about this organization that we've committed to having a delegation that since two thousand and fourteen, we started this delegation and it's still going. I leave in two weeks for Geneva for the Animals Committee meeting, and I think it's incredibly telling that we have a seat at that table. Now we're observers, we don't vote, but we have a seat at that table. You know, it says San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance in that chamber in Geneva with one hundred and eighty three different countries, and our role is to serve as scientific advisors to help the capacity building and to you know, identify areas where we can help and all that. But it's a big part of what we do that I think is completely behind the scenes.

00:19:06
Speaker 1: I mean, you save the best for last. Wrapping up this episode with this is so impressive because again, we talk about different species, we talk about conservation. We do have talked about other things beyond what you can see at the Sfari Park at the Zoo, but you just took it to a whole other level.

00:19:21
Speaker 2: And I don't think a lot of people listening realize that the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance has a seat at the table in Geneva. I mean, like you said, Greg, it really speaks to this organization's goals and mission. I mean, yes, of course, come to the zoo, right, go to the Safari Park and have a great time, but you're also supporting a conservation organization that is doing international work in science and conservation.

00:19:46
Speaker 4: Yeah, and again that's where those relationships start. The chair of the Animals committee will have dinner, you know, right, Like some of my best friends that I've met there are all part of the IUCN specialist groups in vipers, in crocodiles, in hippos, in rhinos and.

00:20:02
Speaker 3: All that stuffing. And just real quick, I see in I you see.

00:20:05
Speaker 4: An International Union on the Conservation of Nature.

00:20:09
Speaker 3: Thanks for throwing me off.

00:20:10
Speaker 1: Sorry, that's it's important because I U see And there's a term we have used here on this podcast before. We do remind people that It's sort of the how we look at where are animal? Are they vulnerable, are they endangered? Where are they on that scale? And that comes from what you're talking about. It comes from societies. It comes from these organizations and these nations coming together and discussing scientific research, discussing these numbers, discussing habitat conditions to then decide, Okay, this is now currently no longer in dangered. It's just threatened or no. This one went from vulnerable to endangered real quick.

00:20:39
Speaker 4: They're the ones who do that work right, and they work with things like sustainability, and these guys work in the field, and so you talk to them, you really have your finger on the pulse, so you know when they're saying, hey, this data is not really sufficient. I know they mean the data is not really sufficient.

00:20:53
Speaker 3: You know one of them.

00:20:54
Speaker 4: You know how they do it is they do it by getting to know the communities. And a good friend of mine who study snakes, he said, you know how I know when a species is getting into trouble? I asked the hunters how hard it is to find it? It's you know, makes perfect sense. It used to take me a day to collect five Now it takes me five days and I have to walk six miles.

00:21:13
Speaker 3: Okay, there's a pattern, right, that's what he said.

00:21:18
Speaker 4: We're listening, we're actively listening, and that's where we start to look at it. You know, seahorses, they have a good friend who works in seahorse conservation. We don't even think about seahorses in that way, right, they're vast majority, Like people aren't fishing for seahorses. They're bycatch. How much are we monitoring what the bycatch is? Where are the regions that we're looking at that stuff?

00:21:38
Speaker 2: Okay, just to clarify, bycatch is a species that gets caught up while they're trying to harvest a different species. So in this case, seahorses are getting tangled up in these.

00:21:48
Speaker 4: Nets, gets tangled up in the net or whatever. You yeah, exactly, sorry, thank you for explaining that. And so you don't get that information from the pillowing fishermen unless you've eaten in his house, right, unless you know his children, unless you have been there, they're not talking to you about that.

00:22:08
Speaker 3: So really having that like.

00:22:10
Speaker 4: Wrapping your head around how complex conservation is and then getting down to it. It's like, no, it's about breaking bread. It's about shaking hands, and it's about being respectful and truly understanding what drives people and that they need to have a sustainable way to live. They want to have a sustainable way to live, right, how do we find that balance?

00:22:30
Speaker 2: Honestly, this is one of the most important and meaningful things about our work, I feel, you know, listening and supporting communities all over the world. I mean, last month the world celebrated Pride Month, and it reminds me of the beauty and necessity of diversity. Right, listening, respecting and celebrating diversity of peoples and cultures from all over the world. And that's really what this is all about, the global community working together to find the sustainable balance it is.

00:22:56
Speaker 1: It is. It's great. Well, thank you so much, Greg, Really, I appreciate you taking the time to sit down and talk with us today, and I think you just gave our audience an opportunity to peak behind and see the bigger picture of what means to work for conservation organization.

00:23:10
Speaker 3: Yeah. Thanks, I ego my pleasure.

00:23:14
Speaker 4: Now.

00:23:14
Speaker 1: I have to admit I love talking about animals and visiting with our wildlife care specialists behind the scenes, but I am always so amazed after discussing our conservation work that happens beyond the zoo and Safari Park.

00:23:26
Speaker 2: I know, I know exactly what you mean, friend, I know how much the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance does around the world, But honestly, talking with Greg reminded me that conservation work also happens when everyone comes together, right to make policies and laws that benefit wildlife and people alike.

00:23:42
Speaker 1: Right, that's that sustainable balance Greg was talking about. And with the knowledge we gain from the partnerships we have the conservation efforts, it makes all that much more impactful and in turn, it brings us closer to those sustainable balances.

00:23:54
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no doubt, friend, and I really appreciate what Greg was saying about the importance of building relations right and trust with those you're working with, from policymakers to the indigenous communities of the world. We all need that trusting relationship to build a solid foundation.

00:24:09
Speaker 1: On well said, well said, and from that solid foundation we can work together for more meaningful and impactful partnerships for conservation.

00:24:17
Speaker 2: Hey, you know what, Rick, what it's kind of making it think of something?

00:24:21
Speaker 1: Oh boy, I know that looks what bird species works together with other flocks or herds or animal groups.

00:24:26
Speaker 3: What are you thinking of?

00:24:27
Speaker 2: Well, you know, that's actually a great idea for another episode. So, but I was thinking about the episode we did on Giant Pandas and how Megan was telling us all about all the teams involved with that fuzzy black and white and apple right.

00:24:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I kind of like what Greg was talking about with different groups all working together.

00:24:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

00:24:45
Speaker 2: And it's about time we learn more about the work our hord Or Culture team does for Giant Pandas, right, and all the other wildlife at the San Diego Zoo and the Safari Park.

00:24:54
Speaker 1: Well, then I guess there you have it. Be sure to subscribe and tune into our next episode, in which we leave the animal well kingdom and branch out into the world of bamboo and other botanical facts.

00:25:07
Speaker 3: I'll not go away, and I'm Rick Schwartz.

00:25:08
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. For more information about the San Diego Zoo and San Diego Zoo Safari Park, go to SDZWA dot org. Amazing Wildlife is a production of iHeartRadio. Our supervising producers are Nikkia Swinton and Dylan Fagan, and our sound designers are Sierra Spreen, and Matt Russell. For more shows from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.