Kids, Teens, and SLEEP with Sleep Expert Lisa Lewis

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah hart Unger. I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and sixty nine, airing in late September of twenty twenty two. I am going to be interviewing teen sleep expert Lisa Lewis. She is the author of Sleep Deprived Teen and has been instrumental in the movement in California to start high school later. They now have a law in California that high schools cannot start before about eight thirty AM. And and so that was partly her handiwork, based on an op ed she wrote for the Los Angeles Times several years ago in her advocacy for that, partly as a parent of a sleep deprived teen that she was seeing that there was a huge problem with this setup. So we're looking forward to talking with her about why it is so important for teens to sleep, why high school start times are generally not set up to make that possible, and you know, we're looking forward to that. So, yeah, Sarah, you don't have teens who sleep in yet. No, nor do I even have like tweens who sleep in. I am waiting for that milestone when like I get to the point where I'm waiting for my kids to wake up, but we're definitely not there yet. Generally, my kids sleep better on Sunday than they do on Saturday, because I guess we're up a little later Saturday. I do a better job tiring them out. Perhaps Saturday morning not uncommon to have someone bounce out of bed at like six am, which is also kind of funny because on school days a lot of times I'm having to drag them out. It's six forty five. So I don't know, I got some early risers. I am an early riser. Maybe there's a connection. I'm not sure. Yeah, that's the worst though, when they're bounding out of bed before their time on weekdays, like on weekends. It's like, no, no, you're missing the point here, kid, This is this is not how this is supposed to work. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe we're seeing some genetic differences here are you and me? Because my tweens definitely sleep in I mean, Jasper and Sammer in full freedged teen mode. I mean they would sleep till ten eleven in the morning if we left them. We don't let them even on weekends. It's not so much that they have morning activities. It's just if you need to wake up at six thirty or seven during the week and you sleep too late on the weekend, you can't get back on track. So you know, I'm generally waking them up eight thirty nine somewhere in there. We sometimes are waking even Alex and Henry up on weekdays, which is kind of nutty. Alex is usually up. He doesn't have to wake up until about eight because elementary school starts at nine, which is of course just completely backwards from how little kids versus big kids operate, and especially now that our elementary schools are only K to four, it would make a lot of sense to switch it. But you know, Henry as he's been dropping the regular nap is definitely sleeping longer in the morning, so sometimes you know it's seven thirty closer to eight. So on weekends there are times I'm definitely up before all of my kids now, which is nutty. That had not happened for for a long long time. What do you do with that found time? I usually just lie in bed because I don't want to wake anyone up, Like I'm like, if I start walking around the house, it's gonna mess everything up. The dog will start barking, somebody will hear me, they'll be whining from the crib. Like I just you know, lie as still as possible. But you know, often at least one weekend morning, I am out running usually so that's getting me up and then going to a church. I usually need to be up around seven forty five to get ready for that anyway, So it's not like anyone's sleeping that long. That makes sense, That makes sense, well, I have I look forward to maybe things shifting a little bit as they get older, because I don't think we've seen the full effects of what hormones can do. And even myself, which just thinking about this, even though I do get up early now, and by the way, I do that with an alarm, Like it's not like I'm bounding outside at like four forty five, like hooray. I'm so weak now, Like even I slept till really late on weekends as a teen. So there is hope. There's hope. Yeah, well sort of, I guess. So you've fixed your bedtime routine, which is awesome, and you got your kids in bed on time. Did you want to talk about that or I think I've talked some about it, But I got to say, like, that's half of the sleep equation, right, There's when they wake up, and then there's how bedtime works. And I do feel like we've made such great progress. This is a huge pain point kind of end of the summer going into the school year, and I just put a lot of energy and kind of like firmness into it, which is now necessarily my default parenting style, and it does seem to have paid off, and I'm really excited about that. I can usually have all three kids in their rooms at least by eight thirty and have a little bit of time to myself most evenings, which is fantastic. It is nice, yeah, to get that so Henry's still a wild card in our bedtime thing because he doesn't always go to bed at the same time. I wish he did, but it's that'll get better, I'm sure over time. But the four big kids, we have a very strict routine now on weekday evenings, which is that everyone needs to be in their rooms with no devices by nine o'clock. And if Mommy is still putting Henry to bed at that time, which does happen if he's taking a longer time to go down, they still need to get their devices into my room by nine o'clock. And they have been very good at it that they will all tramp over there, put devices in there, and then return to their rooms. They can read, do whatever in their rooms. I start circling around to turn off lights nine forty five, so between ninety five and ten is kind of chat with all the kids. Lights out time, you know, check on everything. If somebody was supposed to shower and forgot to shower, that's the time that that is reminded. And then lights out for everyone is by ten. And because of that, I mean, I'm not naive enough to think that everyone falls asleep immediately by ten, but I do you know, if you don't have your devices and the light is out and that is being policed, it's easier to fall asleep. And so I'm pretty sure that Jasper is asleep by ten thirty most nights, which means that if he has to get up at six thirty, he is getting the eight hours of sleep that is sort of the minimum that teens do need ideally. It's more like ideally, if I've turning out his light at nine p fifty, he's fallowed asleep earlier and then he's getting more than the eight hours. But you know, that's the goal there, Sam and Ruth. If the lights are out at ten and they do generally go to bed around then they wake up at seven, so that's nine hours Alex ten to you know, if he's up seven thirty, that's nine and a half hours. And then Henry sometimes naps, but he's probably getting more like eleven eleven to twelve total sleep hours per day. So we are on it. That is happening. I am very strict about it, again also in a way that I usually am not with you know children. Yeah, this is like not your style at all with most things. So I'm impressed and I guess it speaks to the fact that like speakers like Lisa and others have made an impact in showing both of us how important that sleep time is and how important it is to have a little bit of boundary at the end of your day. That's predictable as well. Yeah, because then I get ten to eleven to do whatever, because my bedtime is eleven. If I need to be up at six thirty, that's seven and a half hours, and so that's you know, gives me some downtime as well, which I really appreciate, and not having to go straight from kids stuff to sleep if I have any hope of getting enough sleep. Yeah, No, there's there was a little grumbling about it. There's some grumbling about it for occasionally, but they do it and so I will see hopefully it lasts for the year. Michael seems to have bought into it as well, and I know that when I've been traveling, they've also put their devices away pretty good. Alex sometimes does need to be reminded, but you know, as long as somebody's focused on reminding him, then everyone else is doing it. Awesome. Yeah, well, I'm excited to hear this. Tom. Yeah, let's say you to hear from Lisa about why it is so important for kids to sleep well. I am delighted to welcome Lisa Lewis to the program. Lisa is the author of The Sleep Deprived Teen, to a new book that looks at all the ways that teenagers are not getting enough sleep these days and why that is a problem. So, Lisa, I wonder if you could introduce yourself to our listeners. Yes, Hi, thanks so much for having me. As you mentioned, my book just came out a couple months ago. It's called The Sleep Deprived Teen. Why our teenagers are so tired and how parents in schools can help them thrive. And I'm so happy to be here to chat about teen sleep. Yeah. And so how did you get, you know, involved in this issue in the beginning, because you've been championing this issue for a few years now. Yes, I have been immersed in this for the last seven years. It's all started for me in August of twenty fifteen because that was when my oldest my son was entering high school. That was the beginning of his freshman year. And at that point, our local public high school started at seven thirty in the morning and that felt incredibly early. It was the earliest he had ever had to go to school, and it was quickly obvious. I was the one driving to school. We'd leave the house every day at seven ten, and it was quickly obvious that it really just was too early. He was hardly alert, and I was hardly dropping off someone who was in, you know, perfect shape to be going off for a full day of learning. So I started looking into it. I was trying to figure out why does our high school start so early? And what I quickly found out was that this was not unique to our community. This unfortunate is the case in so many high schools around the country. Even today. There are high schools that start not just at seven thirty, but seven a m. And that's first period mandatory attendance. Those are not like optional classes. So one thing led to another. I started looking into it, I started writing about it. At the time that I got involved, the issue was really hitting a critical mass because the previous year, twenty fourteen, the American Academy of Pediatrics had just released its policy statement recommending the middle and high schools start no earlier than eight thirty. So it was, you know, at that point that I was getting involved, starting to write about it, and Abed I wrote which ran in the Los Angeles Times. The following fall ended up being read by one of our California state senators who had a high schooler of his own, so the issue ran with him. He ended up introducing a bill on the topic. I got swept up in that whole journey, which was two and a half years lengthy, lengthy process, got signed into law in twenty nineteen three year implementation window, and that just went into effect this past summer. So it's been quite a ride. And yes it's been seven years as at this point that I have just been living and breathing this living them really the tame sleep issue. So why on earth do high schools start so early? Because I know historically this has been the case. I mean, if a district has a high school, a middle school, an elementary school, or a high school and a K through eight school, almost inevitably the high school will start the earliest of the three, right, And why is that? Like? Why is that the model that most places have had? I know? And it well, So when it comes down to, in a phrase, it's legacy bust schedules, because what happens in many districts. As you mentioned, they have won fleet of buses, and so for budget reasons, they decided to do that and schedule a tiered system for drop offs and pick up so that they don't have to have multiple buses running at the exact same time. And when they first put these schedules in place, back when these these budget pressures were really hitting the districts, this was before the research on teams sleep was widely know and so at that point, the default often was, well, let's put the oldest kids in that earliest time thought, because they're older, they should be able to handle it better. Well, of course, now we know that's not the case, because now we have all this research on teams sleep. But those I call them legacy schedules because those schedules have endured long past the point where we know that, if anything, it should be the exact opposite. I mean literally, some districts can make a flip so that they have elementary schools starting the earliest, you know, then middle and then high school starting the latest. Yeah, I mean, so let's talk a little bit about what happens with I mean, we'll get to the objections people have to just flipping it. But let's talk about what goes on with the teen brain and teen sleep schedules, because you know, somebody might look at that and say, well, you know, they should just go to bed earlier, like get off their phones and go to bed earlier. So what's going on with teenage bodies? That makes it not quite that straightforward? Yes, and it's I'm smiling because those are exactly the kind of things that can often come up because you know, when you don't really realize some of the basics of teen sleep, it is easy to sort of think, oh, well, they're just being lazy. You know, should get up on time, they should put a bed earlier. So what has been shown now and literally decades of research now is that at puberty, our kids shift to a later sleep schedule, so they have a circadian rhythm shift, and what that means is that the timing shifts later for when they're feeling sleepy and also for when they are ready to wake up in the morning. And you sort of just see this in your house as you have a kid who's growing older that when your kid is little, they are bounding out of bed at six in the morning. They're raring to go. Teens don't tend to do that, and that's because they're all in this later schedule. So melatonin, which is the hormone that primes is to feel sleepy, begins to be released later in the evening compared to younger kids. And so what that means is that teens really aren't feeling sleepy until about eleven o'clock at night. Now I say eleven o'clock at night, because that's when you know, sort of the earlier they're going to start feeling sleepy. Reality is sometimes they are going to git later than that. But the other reality to keep in mind is that our teens up until age eighteen should be getting eight to ten hours of sleep every single night. And I think sometimes people are surprised by that to know that there's a range. It's not just eight hours. Eight is the minimum. You know, it's great for an adult, but teens are not yet adults. And so then you just do the math. Well, if they're not feeling sleepy till eleven eleven o'clock at night, they need eight to ten hours of sleep. You can see why the issue of school start times really you know, makes that in some cases impossible for them to get enough sleep, and what happens to their brains and their bodies when they do wind up chronically getting lesser what have it? You crash on the weekends. You try to make it up sleeping in or napping on the weekend. So what happens when they don't consistently get the eight hours every single night and you know, maybe get eight hours over the course of the week, you know, fifty six hours, but some of it's concentrated on the weekends because they're skimping during the week right, And that's an issue too, because you can't really catch up on the weekends. I mean, that's something that I think people end up doing because they're so in particularly teams, because they have built up this accumulated sleep yet. But you know, an analogy I've heard one of the sleep scientists I worked with make is you know, you don't think about that like with eating, for example, you don't say, oh, well, I'm just going to make up for all the food I eat during the week by doing it on the weekends. Like that is not really a sustainable strategy. So it's sort of a stop gap measure that we use. But the reality is our teams are chronically sleep deprived and us have ramifications across the board. It affects their school performance and aget. Again, there have been literally decades of studies done on what happens to the team brain and also what happens you know, the fact that that they do and you get more sleep after the schools shift. But for instance, when school shift to later start times and teams get more sleep, they find that attendance goes up, tarties go down, absences go down, grades go up, graduation rates go up. So I mean, just looking at it from the school standpoint, clearly there are a lot of benefits. But then there are so many other implications for mental health for risky behaviors, including drowsy driving. For teams who are athletes, it affects their performance when they're sleep deprived. Obviously you're not performing at your best. It even increases their risk for injuries. So I mean, basically, the way to think about it is none of us do anything better by being sleep deprived. All right, Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and we'll be back to learn more about teams and sleep in just a minute. Well, I am back with Lisa Lewis, who is the author of The Sleep Deprived Teen, who has been very active in the campaign in California to get all high schools to start no earlier than eight thirty am. So I happen to be in one of those districts where the start time is still seven thirty for high school, so we are up early for that. And I'm sure you know what the usual objections are. Theoretically, our district would like to move. They are trying to move, but we have some recalcitrant neighbors next to a high school football field who do not want lights. So it ends up being a small issue that does. But what are the Maybe that's just us who have that one, But what are some of the objections that people tend to have to this and to making the switch, Like, once you are moving you know, thousands of students into different times, I mean, what winds up happening. Yeah, now that's a really good point. There are a number of different kinds of questions that come up, because I mean, quite literally, every community has its own unique circumstance. You know, in many cases it will be a case where it has to do with lighting, but in some others it might have to do with transportation, and some others that might have to do with you know, you might not want to do a flip because that's super early start time at seven thirty or seven am. Well, it's probably not really advisable to have elementary schools starting that early. So, I mean, there's so many different kinds of things that come up. So I would say a few things. I would say. The first is, whenever a district, a community, whatever size entity it is, you know, because again we just at this state level is talking about changing start times, you have to allow enough time to make the change effectively. So you don't just announce it and say, oh, we're going to do this next month. You know, you do have to allow enough time so that these kinds of questions can come up, can be addressed, you know, can come up with solutions that work for everybody. So in California, for instance, we had a three year implementation window. But the kinds of things that come up do tend to be similar. So when it comes to you know, issues like lighting. You know that's true if you didn't have lighting previously and you are talking about moving games later, yes, that is something that's going to have to happen, and not everyone is going to be happy about that. You know, I don't unfortunately have a you know, a magic solution for that. However, what does help, and this is part of having that long implementation window, is starting off with communicating about why this is being done. This is not just being done to annoy it the neighbors were putting on more lights. This is being done because teams sleep deprivation is a public health issue. And so I like to start by just setting some of those basics to have people understand really what's at stake, that this is not just something that's being done as a logistical change. It has compelling public health research. It has the backing of every major medical group out there, not just the American Academy Pediatrics, American Medical Association, American Psychological Association, to you know, look at this as a public health issue and make sure it's grounded in that understanding so that it doesn't get derailed by logistics considerations, which again I know that doesn't offer the perfect answer to that specific example, but it does help put it in context. Because if you were talking about say lead paint or asbestos, you know, people wouldn't say, oh, well, we know we should, but we can't because of this logistical issue, and so you know, sometimes it's just really making sure people understand why this is being done in the first place goes a long way towards helping maybe have the conversations be more open and you know, have more kind of open solutions that can come about. So what have districts wound up doing that? Do have the three tiers of buses? And especially if you don't want elementary schools starting at seven point thirty either? Is there a best practice of it? I I mean, because that's probably what you know, people get hung up on. Well, and see, this is the thing. There is no one best practice because there are so many different scenarios out there. I mean in every single district. These schedules sort of have come about because of, you know, things that had nothing to do with student well being, Like you know, we need to cut our bus our busing budget, and so we're going to do it with this tier system, and in many cases those haven't been updated in years. I mean, just as an example, and this really I think underscores it. At the time that my son was entering high school and our high school had a seven thirty start time. Yeah, again that I've been put in place years ago because we had this tiered system. So elementary schools all started somewhere between seven forty five and eight ten. Middle schools started at eight forty five, which was perfect, and high school started at seven thirty, which was this huge dramatic change. And you know, right when your kid is entering high school and all of a sudden having to go to school that much earlier. But here's the road. At that point in time, they no longer were even offering bus service to high school because of budget, and yet this start times endured, so we couldn't even say like, oh, well, at least it's being done because of this valid reason. So I mean, that's just a particularly egregious example of you know that these schedules often have not been updated in so many years that often it is time to take another look at them. There may be ways to streamline, you know, whatever schedule has been put in place, because again that caveat that no one should really be starting at seven or seven thirty, and so sort of looking at it again with fresh eyes, often it's time, yeah, see if you can get a few more buses, Although finding the bus driver seems to be its own problem, right, Well, yeah, exactly, and there are these external factor and you know that's true, And yet you don't want teams sleep to be the thing that suffers as a result. I mean, something has to give in that equation. But when you look at the harm we're doing to our teams because of this, I think that too often has been downplayed unfortunately. Yeah, it's very strange. I'm very curious what will wind up happening in our district if you know, they're just waiting a year to announce it after you know everything's finally back open with COVID. But the neighbors next to one of the high school football fields absolutely do not want lights and have taken the whole thing to court as far as I can see. So we shall see how that all pays out. But yeah, so we are still at seven thirty. So for those of us who are in a situation like this where you know seven thirty is the school high school starts, sign how can we boost the chances of our kids getting adequate sleep? Even knowing that there is this reality of teens wanting to stay up later and sleep later in the morning, what can we do to kind of, you know, help the situation, even if it's not ideal. Yeah, and I have some other ideas too, going back to the lighting thing, if we have time to get back to that, oh sure, yeah, because again I get back to really trying to set that foundation of understanding for why this is being done. This chronic sleep deprivation that our teams have been suffering, especially these last several years. You know, with everything that's gone on with the pandemic, et cetera, your mental health issues for teens. Every major medical group has been sounding the alarm. So I think really helping people understand that just to start really helps sometimes get people on the same page to be able to come up with some solutions, because yeah, a seven thirty start time is too early, and you know you don't want want, you know that to be stuck forevermore, knowing that how difficult that is making things for our teams. That being said, you know, although that is known to be the single biggest policy change we can make to help our teams, there are still things we can do in our own homes. You know, As I mentioned, teams aren't feeling sleep till about eleven o'clock at night. But many of them are not going to bed at eleven, many of them are up much later than that. So there are a number of other factors that play in. So probably one of the first ones I would recommend that parents take a look at is whether their team is overscheduled, because I think oftentimes that is the reality. There are so many demands being put on them in terms of needing to take advanced or honor sible classes, doing extracurriculars, or there's sports or other activities. Maybe they have a job too, And so one pretty straightforward step is just to take a look at everything that is currently on your team's plate. Add up the hours for each of those, you know, because particularly when they're taking honor civil classes, that is generally an expanded homework load. See add all that up plus those hours that are already dedicated to their sports or theater or speech and debate and their job, and see if there's even a window left for of eight to ten hours to give them the opportunity to be able to get in that sleep. Because if there's not, that is part of the issue. You know, it may be time to reevaluate. But again, that's that's a straightforward step. To take to look at everything, but recognizing the pressures that have led them to be over scheduled. That that is a bigger issue, you know, and so that is something also where the schools can play a role. Teams, you know, technology is a big issue. However, teens also have to be online in order to do their homework. You know. It's not just their social media time that's you know, keeping them online. They have to be online to do their homework, to turn in their assignments. But one of the issues that may inadvertently be contributing is the fact that homework due dates when they're entered into the system for turn ins often get a default time of eleven fifty nine pm, you know, and that just sort of tacitly encourages you to work later, right, I mean, that's just human nature. So things like that sometimes, you know, may not have even been really raised, and so raising that maybe a turn in time of ten o'clock would help, you know. Looking at tech, there are some common sense guidelines parents can look at implementing, such as no tech use an hour before bed. Those are the official recognitions in the American Academy of Pediatrics. Ideally, charging all devices in a central location like the kitchen. But for that too, it's not just the teen's devices that should be there, it's ours too as adults, you know, because we need to be walking the talk. So that's another one, is I guess probably it all boils DOWND to making sleep a priority, you know, so that they are teams see that we make sleep a priority. It's not just something where we are coming in these edicts, but that these are common sense best practices that we are also following. Yeah, the no screens an hour before bed is a really a good one to you know, just encourage reading winding down in general, because it's hard to go from zooming on online to nothing all of a sudden clean. Yeah, I would love to go back to the lights issue if you have, you know now that you know you mentioned it, because of course what's going on here. I mean, obviously high school sports can be very important in many communities. They are obviously important to kids as well. And if your school gets out at two forty five in the afternoon, your football game can be at three fifteen and be done by five thirty and you don't need the lights, whereas if it is you know, or your practice, I guess as it is, if school is ending an hour and a half later, then you are, at least during the winter months, going definitely into darkness, which you know probably makes it hard to catch a ball or watch practice or anything else. So what do you do about the sports question and all that if it puts you into the darkness. Yeah. So the one other thing that I was thinking of is when you're talking about practices or games in the dark. Generally speaking, you know, I can see how late in the evening that can the issue. But if you're talking well, first of all, if you're talking around dinner time, I mean, it's sort of figuring out what is too late. The same way there at doors regulations in different communities after a certain point of time. So is it reasonable to have them at say five o'clock at night if needed, that would seem to be preferable. I would assume to neighbors then stay at ten o'clock at night. And I will also mention that you probably don't want kids out practicing late at night anyway, because that is also not in keeping with the spirit of trying to help them get more sleep, and that again is a best practice I have talked to, for instance, a superintendent in Maine that when they made the switch to later start times, they set a cap on how late practices could go at night, and they also forbade before school practices because those are also of course taking away from the whole point of helping teens get more sleep. So that can be part of it of not having these things go late at night when it comes to practices. But even games, you know, oftentimes they'll help JV we'll play in the afternoon and then varsity will play at night. Well maybe they could have varsity played earlier in the evening on Friday and have JV plan on Thursday. You know, like, it seems like there are solutions where you can do it where it doesn't have to be late at night, you know, nine o'clock at night. It just seems like having those sort of conversations with neighbors and starting to look at some of these options, and particularly once you've established why this is being done to help your team's not be sleep deprived, then maybe they would be more open to coming up with some solutions like that. Yeah, now it's a fascinating issue. I mean, what do you see happening do you think it's going to be sort of states adopting what California did. I know this is under consideration, and a few other states, New Jersey and a few other places that would be my hope. And I say that because it does seem like to really have change happen at scale. The reality is having it happen at the state wide level seems like the best approach. And I will point out it's also what's done for other public health issues. Again as best the paint. You don't leave that to local communities to decide whether or not to heed. You know, we're into lead paint. And I mean the sad reality is this research has been out there for decades and the AAP, you know, even their statement that was twenty fourteen, so it's it's been a number of years even since then, and they didn't come to that lightly. They waited until what there was this body of research and you know, proven results pre and post or is to show that yes, these later start times are linked to teens getting more sleep. So we know the research is out there, and yet up until California making this change, the change really has happened on a patchwork basis. So I wish I could tell you the exact number of districts that have changed, but there is no central database, So I mean, I know it's hundreds, more than hundreds that have done this, you know it Before California, the largest jurisdiction to do so was probably the city of Seattle. And so there have been cities that have done this. There have been districts as small as one high school, but it has and on a patrick basis, and so you know, often California is the bell weather for changes, and so I do hope that this is now putting some wind in the sales of some of these other states like New Jersey, like New York, like Massachusetts that do have active bills under consideration right now. And there's one other piece I'll mentioned that ties back to sports, which is that when this happens at the state wide level, it also eliminates some of what has historically come up as a sticking point, which is districts having to negotiate with other districts that haven't changed their start times. So what that's going to mean for practices, Well, the beauty of it when it's at at a state wide level is you don't have to do that because all the schools are now more in sync with their start times as opposed to some starting at seven am and some starting at seven thirty am and sun starting at eight thirty. Yeah, exactly. All right, well, Lisa, this has been great talking about this. We always end with a love of the week. It doesn't have to be sleep related. It can be if you want, we can say what it is. I can go first, just anything that is making your life good this week. I will say that I have designated a area for the kids' devices and they are all required to be in their rooms and off devices by nine pm, with the lights then going off at ten. And you know, it's been good, like having a spot for everyone to put stuff and a time that it absolutely has to be done. There has been a good start of school routine. I'm hoping we can stick with it. But it does make the whole evening a bit more coordinated and peaceful. And that's been good. Yes, oh no, that's perfect. And particularly I'm gathering your kids maybe a little younger than mine, because having those routines set, you know, when kids are younger makes it easier as they morph into teens and as all of you know these demands ramp up, so that is a great practice, I will say on my end, but I am enjoying quite literally. This week is the break in the weather. I'm in southern California and it has been beastly hot for a good ten days and that makes it hard to sleep. So I am very grateful that finally we're turning the corner getting a little hint of fall. And my crisp cotton sheets too, those are good. Those make sleep excellent. Yes, I've been getting some good sleep, some nice blankets that as it gets colder we'll be able to use. I don't like it was too cold, but you know, a little bit of fall, nip in the air, is this is a lightful thing for sleeping. Well all right, well, Lisa, this has been great. Why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you. Yes, my website is Lisalllewis dot com. I do use my middle initial just because it's a somewhat common name. So even on my book you'll see it's Lisa L. Lewis. And the book is The Sleep Deprived Teen, Why our teenagers are so tired and how parents at schools can help them thrive. Oh and I should mention Twitter and Instagram. It's at Lewis Lisa l awesome, all right that Lisa, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much. Really enjoyed it, all right. So that was great hearing from Lisa about teens sleep and what we can do to make sure that our communities are supporting healthy sleep for teenagers. So, Sarah, you wanted to include this in lieu of a question. We have a reader pro tip or a listener pro tip. So do you want to read this one? Sure? Since this has been like a fantasy of mine for so long and this person actually put it into action. Okay. So she writes that she wanted to contribute to the conversation about school morning breakfast ideas and had a strategy that was working in their household for many years. She meets with her kids twice a year, once before school starts and once when they go back in January, and that meeting they decide what breakfast is going to be and put it on a schedule. Since there's buy in from the kids, they are not resistant to the mules, and since it's predetermined, it removes the decision making conversation every morning they came up with me people. Mondays pancakes with maple syrup, toast, Tuesdays oatmeal and grits with toast or avocado toast waffle, Wednesday's thirsty, Thursdays which is a smoothie, don't get excited, fun Fridays which is cereal, and see is there a weekend? While she no specific weekend rotation, but that makes sense because weekends tend to be less hectic anyway. And she writes they also always have fruit as a side and keep some other backups on hand, and she likes having that second meeting in January so the kids can shake things up to avoid burnout if needed. I just thought it was so cool. I've always wanted to have a quote breakfast rotation. Maybe I haven't had enough kid input. Maybe if it was their rotation, there would be more excitement around said rotation. I will say I have learned that the secret to give you my kids oatmeal and not hearing complaints is serving it with chocolate chips. So that is my pro tip for the day. I think anything with chocolate chips can reduce the wining. It's something about the chocolate chips. It's even just the tiniest little bit of chocolate whip cream is another thing you could try for almost anything like a time. Little bit of whipped cream on a whatever, on anything, anything tends to reduce the whining. So yeah, that was a great tip from our listener about having a morning rotation like that. My older children are responsible for their own breakfasts and then Alex is happy to just have a freezer waffle and a piece of cheese. So you know, I think this would be a lot more elaborate than we would have in our house. But if you've got younger kids who have not reached quite the get your own breakfast stage, I can think this would be definitely helpful. So this has been best of both worlds. I have been talking with Lisa Lewis, who is an expert on teen sleep was helpful in getting California to pass legislation making sure that high schools started later to take into account teen sleep needs. We will be back next week with more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.