WWE Podcast Throwback (2021): What If Stone Cold Steve Austin Never Got Injured in 1997?

<v Speaker 1>It's time to explore wrestling's past and potential future with
<v Speaker 1>your weekly dose of a segment we call what If,
<v Speaker 1>only found here on the WORWE podcast.
<v Speaker 2>All right, welcome to your what If segment for the week.
<v Speaker 2>And if you're listening to this, of course, thank you
<v Speaker 2>so much for being a patron of the show. If
<v Speaker 2>you're the raws here or higher, then you have access
<v Speaker 2>to the show, and thank you so much. And this week,
<v Speaker 2>we've of course got Anthony Debarco back here to discuss
<v Speaker 2>one of the biggest topics that I don't think is
<v Speaker 2>often discussed enough, which is why we're doing it tonight,
<v Speaker 2>and that is what if Stone Cold Steve Austin never
<v Speaker 2>got injured back in nineteen ninety seven at SummerSlam the
<v Speaker 2>infamous pile Driver by Owen Hart. So let's let's dive
<v Speaker 2>right into an Anthony. First of all, how you doing?
<v Speaker 3>Not too bad?
<v Speaker 4>Man? But I'm really excited because, like our first ever
<v Speaker 4>what if segment, we're talking about the Rock. Now we're
<v Speaker 4>talking about Stone Cold Steve Austin, And in my mind,
<v Speaker 4>these two are the two biggest superstars bar nine, probably
<v Speaker 4>in the history of the company.
<v Speaker 3>Would you not agree, absolutely?
<v Speaker 2>I mean that's why I wanted to start out with
<v Speaker 2>these two it. I think it is number one household
<v Speaker 2>brand value. I mean, everyone knows who these guys are,
<v Speaker 2>and these two things are some of the biggest topics
<v Speaker 2>not explored that people don't really think about. Right So
<v Speaker 2>with the Rock last week and we talked about what
<v Speaker 2>if he never won Hollywood and this week, as you said,
<v Speaker 2>stone Cold Sieve Austin, I don't think there's a bigger
<v Speaker 2>name in wrestling. You know, you can make an argument
<v Speaker 2>for Hogan and all that. I think Austin didn't burn
<v Speaker 2>the longest, but he burned the hottest. And I want
<v Speaker 2>to get into this right away with what would have happened.
<v Speaker 2>And man, I know that you weren't watching in ninety seven.
<v Speaker 2>I had come in actually just just after this happened
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen ninety seven. I started in October of ninety
<v Speaker 2>seven watching as the first ever Helen to sell with
<v Speaker 2>HBK and Taker. But I saw many flashbacks. I've obviously
<v Speaker 2>since watched the match between Owen Hart and Stone Cold,
<v Speaker 2>and in really an injury that could have easily killed
<v Speaker 2>him or paralyzed him at the very least. Austin definitely
<v Speaker 2>got lucky given the fact that it was just a
<v Speaker 2>a I forget what he called. It's like an axial
<v Speaker 2>load or some actual there's a medical term for what
<v Speaker 2>had happened, getting dropped right on the top of his head.
<v Speaker 2>And when it happened in ninety seven during the match,
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure you've seen it, even though you didn't watch
<v Speaker 2>it live, as I didn't. It was scary to watch
<v Speaker 2>back because you could see his body straightened out. And
<v Speaker 2>Austin has since done commentary talking about this moment his
<v Speaker 2>body straightened out. He couldn't move his arms, he could
<v Speaker 2>barely move his legs. Owen Hart had to buy time,
<v Speaker 2>messing with the audience because he told Austin told Earl Hebner,
<v Speaker 2>you know, look, I can't move. I can't f and move,
<v Speaker 2>and owen Hart started to buy time and in one
<v Speaker 2>of the as Austin would call it, the worst roll
<v Speaker 2>ups in the history of roll ups, and it is.
<v Speaker 2>It was god awful. But what are you gonna do?
<v Speaker 2>He's half paralyzed. Austin ends up winning the match, and
<v Speaker 2>this was for the Intercontinental Championship too, So do you
<v Speaker 2>remember watching this for the first time and what were
<v Speaker 2>your thoughts.
<v Speaker 4>Well, it's scary because it's one of those rare moments
<v Speaker 4>where reality kind of seeps into this alternate universe that
<v Speaker 4>we know and love as WWE or WWF at that time,
<v Speaker 4>and to see it happen in such a bad and
<v Speaker 4>visible way. Because sometimes guys get hurt and they're able
<v Speaker 4>to cover it up, like let's say Triple A twenty
<v Speaker 4>Tours squad in two thousand and one, he was somehow
<v Speaker 4>able to finish that match or like something of that,
<v Speaker 4>like when it's a limb, or like you pull a muscle,
<v Speaker 4>like the Rock did it against his and his match
<v Speaker 4>against John c and at Rest twenty nine. Like if
<v Speaker 4>there are certain injuries that you're able to, you know,
<v Speaker 4>quote play through the pain, and we see it sometimes
<v Speaker 4>like in professional sports like hockey or baseball, you can
<v Speaker 4>mass some injuries, but when your dropped directly on your
<v Speaker 4>head and you weigh two hundred and fifty pounds primarily
<v Speaker 4>of solid muscle, you can't really hide that stuff. And
<v Speaker 4>this was an instance where we saw a guy just
<v Speaker 4>in so much pain, grewsome pain, and it was evident,
<v Speaker 4>you know, like when you watch it back in slow motion,
<v Speaker 4>you see his head you know, way too low. I
<v Speaker 4>think he was like just above Owenhard's kneecaps. And I
<v Speaker 4>do believe that that particular move is now banned in
<v Speaker 4>WW and probably for a good reason. So yeah, it
<v Speaker 4>was one of those moments where reality really took center
<v Speaker 4>stage in a product that is mostly based on fiction.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, like you said, scary, and which is
<v Speaker 2>why as if you remember, or maybe you don't, some
<v Speaker 2>people don't even realize that when Austin had faced Undertaker
<v Speaker 2>or Caine after this, many years after this in ninety eight,
<v Speaker 2>ninety nine, in two thousand, he never took a tombstone.
<v Speaker 2>He would always be able to squir them out of it.
<v Speaker 2>What they would use on Austin is the choke slam.
<v Speaker 2>I never ever ever saw Austin take a tombstone from
<v Speaker 2>Taker or Caine after this event. And with I mean rightfully,
<v Speaker 2>so if I was Austin there, you can't even leave
<v Speaker 2>that up to chance. As much of a professional as
<v Speaker 2>Glenn Jacobs and Mark Callaway are, you can't ever consider
<v Speaker 2>that risk again, So that that's just something I noticed,
<v Speaker 2>and I believe it's been pointed out by Austin himself.
<v Speaker 2>So this was again this was a moment that forever
<v Speaker 2>changed the career of Stone Cold Steve Austin. Now, one thing,
<v Speaker 2>I'll say, as much as this cut short his career,
<v Speaker 2>and we'll get into that as the years go on.
<v Speaker 2>Here the one good thing that possibly came of this.
<v Speaker 3>Two things.
<v Speaker 2>Maybe number one, I think this in Austin has admitted this,
<v Speaker 2>So this isn't really my original thought. But Austin had
<v Speaker 2>said had this not had happened, he might have not
<v Speaker 2>his style may have remained a technical wrestler, kind of
<v Speaker 2>a chain wrestler, forced him into more of a brawling
<v Speaker 2>type of style, which ultimately fed into his character of
<v Speaker 2>Stone Cold Steve Austin being a brawler. And number two,
<v Speaker 2>what about Vince McMahon with the whole few with Vince
<v Speaker 2>McMahon had happened, Because with the whole first stunner that
<v Speaker 2>happened in Madison Square Garden, it was all based on
<v Speaker 2>Vince not allowing Stone Cold to come back because he's injured,
<v Speaker 2>and Austin told him you can kiss my ass boom,
<v Speaker 2>we're off to the races with the stunner. And so
<v Speaker 2>those are the two things. So do you think that
<v Speaker 2>the Austin McMahon program would have happened if the injury
<v Speaker 2>didn't happen.
<v Speaker 4>It's hard to say, right, you know, hindsight is twenty twenty.
<v Speaker 4>But I mean, let's say he didn't get injured, Like,
<v Speaker 4>who's to say if he would have even had that
<v Speaker 4>big of a return, you know, the classic phrase of
<v Speaker 4>you don't know what you have.
<v Speaker 3>Until it's gone.
<v Speaker 4>Maybe if Austin would have just stayed consistently in the
<v Speaker 4>product and in that inner Continental Championship picture, he would
<v Speaker 4>have never been thrusted into that main event scene because
<v Speaker 4>perhaps the crowd would have never gotten behind him, because
<v Speaker 4>a lot of times crowds really get behind wrestlers when
<v Speaker 4>they are away a long time due to injury. And
<v Speaker 4>I use Edge as that example as a guy that
<v Speaker 4>when he first disbanded from eedgend Christian, he was injured
<v Speaker 4>on and off, I would say for close to two years.
<v Speaker 4>You know, he miss wrestled me in nineteen and twenty,
<v Speaker 4>and then he really hit the ground running fully healthy
<v Speaker 4>in the spring of two thousand and four, and out
<v Speaker 4>of nowhere, the crowd were just so behind him because
<v Speaker 4>he was injured. Obviously, Austin didn't miss close to that
<v Speaker 4>amount of time, but I think.
<v Speaker 3>It's applicable here because who's to.
<v Speaker 4>Say, maybe Austin just gets lost in that shuffle, maybe
<v Speaker 4>he becomes just you know, one of the best intercontinental champions,
<v Speaker 4>something kind of like a Chris Jericho or whatnot. And
<v Speaker 4>the thing about his wrestling style is as what it's
<v Speaker 4>also notable as well, because everyone likes a chain wrestler.
<v Speaker 4>But I think that there is a part of you know,
<v Speaker 4>the crowd and I could be like a part of
<v Speaker 4>this as well, that you do like that brawler.
<v Speaker 5>You don't want to see just chain wrestling.
<v Speaker 4>You know, even a guy likes let's say Sean Michaels,
<v Speaker 4>he could mix in that high flying.
<v Speaker 3>So the fact that Austin was able to adopt.
<v Speaker 4>You know, that new type of brawling style'll probably fit
<v Speaker 4>in with his perfect, you know, anti hero type of
<v Speaker 4>character like you previously alluded to. But another thing that
<v Speaker 4>like a positive that came out of this, and it's
<v Speaker 4>so hard to you know, attribute positive to this particular situation,
<v Speaker 4>but he obviously he ultimately had to take a year
<v Speaker 4>off in nineteen ninety nine to late two thousand and
<v Speaker 4>I think that's where the Rock really exploded as a
<v Speaker 4>top level Babyface and where Triple H kind of cemented
<v Speaker 4>himself as a main event level heel in Austin's absence,
<v Speaker 4>like the Rock took Austin's place and Triple H took
<v Speaker 4>the Rocks place.
<v Speaker 3>So I'll think.
<v Speaker 4>That's a very big positive that came out, came away
<v Speaker 4>from Austin getting injured.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the fact that Austin, Yeah, in ninety nine It's
<v Speaker 2>Survivors series, when they did the whole him getting run
<v Speaker 2>over by a car which ended up being Rakishi. Maybe
<v Speaker 2>we could talk about that at some point. I mean,
<v Speaker 2>I have questioned so many questions about that storyline and
<v Speaker 2>why Rakishi was jolted in that position, but I'll stay
<v Speaker 2>on track here. Yeah, that did certainly benefit the Rock.
<v Speaker 2>A massive hole had been created, and the Rock filled
<v Speaker 2>that hole very nicely. And like you said, he was
<v Speaker 2>allowed to be the focal point, the top level Babyface
<v Speaker 2>in place of Austin while he was gone from I
<v Speaker 2>believe it was, yeah, November till September. I believe it
<v Speaker 2>was a late September in two thousand when he returned
<v Speaker 2>with the new Disturbed music. I even remember him stunning
<v Speaker 2>William Regal that night as he came out to read.
<v Speaker 2>I think it was Shakespeare or something, and that was
<v Speaker 2>just such a funny, funny stunner that night. But that
<v Speaker 2>did allow a lot of stars to really step up.
<v Speaker 2>And Austin had alluded to the fact that he couldn't
<v Speaker 2>even watch wrestling during that time because he was number one,
<v Speaker 2>just depressed about what happened, jealous about not being able
<v Speaker 2>to be in that position, and also concerned that he
<v Speaker 2>would never be able to come back again. He wasn't sure.
<v Speaker 2>And so yeah, that the Rock exploded during that time,
<v Speaker 2>that is a positive, although again the net negative is well,
<v Speaker 2>what about Austin. Had Austin stuck around, would the Rock
<v Speaker 2>have still risen to the level he did. I mean,
<v Speaker 2>there's just so many variables, but certainly in nineteen ninety nine,
<v Speaker 2>as we roll on and Austin is as hot as
<v Speaker 2>hot can be and we have the Rock also on
<v Speaker 2>the ascent, I believe was did the Rock turn Babyface
<v Speaker 2>during that Survivors Series matchup? That it was a tournament
<v Speaker 2>I believe for the the WWF Championship was that when
<v Speaker 2>the Rock turned on Vince McMahon in the corporation.
<v Speaker 5>If I recall correctly and watching it live.
<v Speaker 4>I was about five or six years old, so I
<v Speaker 4>hope that my memory doesn't mistake me here, but I'm
<v Speaker 4>pretty sure following wrestling at fifteen, when Austin defeed The
<v Speaker 4>Rock for the championship, the Rock turned on Vince soon thereafter,
<v Speaker 4>and we actually saw The Rock and Steve Austin kind
<v Speaker 4>of joined forces and fight against the corporate ministry, and
<v Speaker 4>I remember like there's a sequence of matches again, I
<v Speaker 4>think it was kind of Undertaker and Triple H, who
<v Speaker 4>were like the figureheads of the corporate Ministry against The
<v Speaker 4>Rock and Steve Austin. Then eventually, you know, you had
<v Speaker 4>the Union joined forces with The Rock and Austin, which
<v Speaker 4>I believe it was Tesh shamrock mankind of big show.
<v Speaker 4>And then eventually, obviously we had the big reveal of
<v Speaker 4>the higher Power, which was Vince, and I think The
<v Speaker 4>Rock was kind of full steam ahead as a baby
<v Speaker 4>face by the.
<v Speaker 3>Summer of nineteen ninety nine.
<v Speaker 4>I do believe he had a feud with Billy Gunn,
<v Speaker 4>which was weird leading into Survivor Series.
<v Speaker 3>But I know that that Survivor Series.
<v Speaker 4>Match was supposed to be Triple H, the Rock again,
<v Speaker 4>Steve Austin and and no, the Rock was full fledged
<v Speaker 4>babyface by the summer of ninety nine because he had
<v Speaker 4>the match versus Triple H on the first ever SmackDown
<v Speaker 4>for the Championship where he was the babyface and Shawn
<v Speaker 4>Michaels gave him sweets and music in the midst of
<v Speaker 4>him doing the People's Elbow. So I think The Rock
<v Speaker 4>was already turning and was on the road of being
<v Speaker 4>a full time babyface. But when Austin stepped away, and
<v Speaker 4>even Undertaker had stepped away at that point in nineteen
<v Speaker 4>nine as well, like they both missed WrestleMania two thousand,
<v Speaker 4>which is just crazy to think that, you know, Undertaker
<v Speaker 4>and Steve Austin not at a WrestleMania, and in early
<v Speaker 4>two thousand, you know, even Mick Foley was like quote
<v Speaker 4>unquote semi retired, although he had the match at WRESTLEMANA
<v Speaker 4>two thousand, so it really was the Rock Show, like
<v Speaker 4>he won the Royal Rumble and then they had the
<v Speaker 4>fatal four way match with each McMahon in every corner
<v Speaker 4>at that WrestleMania, So I mean it definitely benefited the Rock,
<v Speaker 4>but Austin, who was, as you said, as hot as
<v Speaker 4>hot could be him not being there really just paved
<v Speaker 4>the way for the Rock.
<v Speaker 2>It did, and that WrestleMania two thousand, which is never
<v Speaker 2>ever known as WrestleMania sixteen. WrestleMania sixteen doesn't exist exactly. Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>it's just always WrestleMania two thousand whatever a video game. Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>which was to me, I mean, besides No Mercy, it
<v Speaker 2>was the predecessor to No Mercy, but it was. Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>that was awesome on n sixty four, the WrestleMania two thousand.
<v Speaker 2>Those that are you know, even late twenties, early thirties
<v Speaker 2>or mid twenties even may know what the hell we're
<v Speaker 2>talking about here. No Mercy still just is.
<v Speaker 3>So.
<v Speaker 2>It may not have the best graphics and it is
<v Speaker 2>ancient in today's standards, but damn it, it was just
<v Speaker 2>so good. So uh yeah, the WrestleMania two thousand was,
<v Speaker 2>like you said, it was a big moment for the Rock.
<v Speaker 2>With the McMahon in every corner. It ended up, as
<v Speaker 2>we all know, at the end of that match, that
<v Speaker 2>all the McMahons were in cahoots. It was all just
<v Speaker 2>a game to screw the Rock. And I believe that
<v Speaker 2>was the first time that the Rock bottom Stephanie McMahon
<v Speaker 2>and the I mean the crowd lost it. I was, yeah,
<v Speaker 2>I was losing it, which is funny considering the Rock
<v Speaker 2>in Ronda Rousey at WrestleMania thirty two when Stephanie slapped
<v Speaker 2>him and he said, you know, the Rock would never
<v Speaker 2>hit a woman. But I'm like, Rock, you have rock
<v Speaker 2>bottom Stephanie many times. But anyway, so the Rock did that.
<v Speaker 2>That was a big moment. But he ended up obviously
<v Speaker 2>losing the match, and so that was a big moment.
<v Speaker 2>But as we move on though, of course into two thousand,
<v Speaker 2>the Austin returns after his surgery. Two thousand and one
<v Speaker 2>is when the big turn was it? Two thousand and one, Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and one when the Austin turned heel and
<v Speaker 2>joined Vince McMahon and then of course was part of
<v Speaker 2>the alliance. Was then pretending to be part of Team
<v Speaker 2>WWF to turn again on Curt Angle during that match, Yeah, invasion,
<v Speaker 2>to try to drive home the point it was like
<v Speaker 2>that one last Okay, this isn't working. I'm going to
<v Speaker 2>pretend to be the old stone Cold. I'm gonna then
<v Speaker 2>turn again to piss you guys off. And it worked
<v Speaker 2>to some level. I mean, it was kind of weird.
<v Speaker 2>And Austin even alludes to this in his podcast if
<v Speaker 2>you listen to them, that that part of his career,
<v Speaker 2>he said, with the invasion angle, and even prior to
<v Speaker 2>his final match, he said, it's all kind of a
<v Speaker 2>black hole. He wasn't in a good headspace. He's alluded
<v Speaker 2>to this many times as well. He doesn't really remember,
<v Speaker 2>he says, a whole lot of it, for better or worse.
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if that hadn't do anything to do
<v Speaker 2>with his drinking or just the fact that he was
<v Speaker 2>in a bad spot from with his marriage. I know
<v Speaker 2>he was too, so it wasn't a great time I
<v Speaker 2>think for Austin. Albeit the what thing came from the
<v Speaker 2>whole invasion angle in him running or being the leader
<v Speaker 2>of the WCW and ECW group, So there is that,
<v Speaker 2>but they eventually turned him. Of course, back in two
<v Speaker 2>thousand and two, what were your thoughts, again, as we
<v Speaker 2>are getting close to the end now of Sotne Colt's career,
<v Speaker 2>if he didn't get injured, would have anything changed between
<v Speaker 2>say one to two in that timeframe, would he have
<v Speaker 2>still turned heel? Did you think that had anything to
<v Speaker 2>do with his injury.
<v Speaker 4>Well, I'll back it up to kind of early two
<v Speaker 4>thousand and one where he comes back. He had that short,
<v Speaker 4>lackluster program with Rakishi and it quickly kind of became
<v Speaker 4>Rakeshi against the Rock, and then he transitioned to Austin
<v Speaker 4>against Triple H in the winter of two thousands to
<v Speaker 4>the last two thousand and one and then Building two,
<v Speaker 4>what is in my mind the biggest WrestleMania main event
<v Speaker 4>in the history of professional wrestling, Rock versus Austin and
<v Speaker 4>resume at seventeen. I don't think that that match happens,
<v Speaker 4>or maybe it happens, but we wouldn't still be talking
<v Speaker 4>about it in the same way had Austin not got hurt, because,
<v Speaker 4>as we previously mentioned, the Rock would not have become
<v Speaker 4>the megastar that he did during the year two thousand
<v Speaker 4>pretty much because of Austin's injury. Had Austin not gotten
<v Speaker 4>hurt and had to step away for a year, so
<v Speaker 4>the Rock would have probably not reached that mega over
<v Speaker 4>the top level babyface that Austin was let's say the
<v Speaker 4>year or two before that. And then when Austin came
<v Speaker 4>back in late two thousand and early two thousand and one,
<v Speaker 4>and he won the Rumble again and he became the
<v Speaker 4>number one contender, and you're saying to yourself, like, oh
<v Speaker 4>my god, we're gonna see Austin become the WWE champion
<v Speaker 4>for the first time in a year and a half
<v Speaker 4>two years, and it really really divided the crowd. And
<v Speaker 4>I think it was always a bit more Steve Austin.
<v Speaker 4>I think that's fairly non debatable, but because The Rock
<v Speaker 4>had become so big, I think it became just that
<v Speaker 4>over the top super main event that we're still talking
<v Speaker 4>about two decades later, and then as we move on
<v Speaker 4>more into two thousand and one, I don't think he
<v Speaker 4>would have turned heel, because I could be wrong here,
<v Speaker 4>but maybe they said, Okay, we can afford to try
<v Speaker 4>this heel character because we have the Rock to fall
<v Speaker 4>back on.
<v Speaker 3>Like it wouldn't have worked with Steve.
<v Speaker 4>Well, it didn't work either way, but they could not
<v Speaker 4>have afforded to lose the baby face version of stone
<v Speaker 4>cold Steve Austin had The Rock not been at that level,
<v Speaker 4>because obviously The Rock stepped away for four months following
<v Speaker 4>Wrestling of twenty two thousand and one and came back
<v Speaker 4>in July.
<v Speaker 5>But those two were kind of like the faces of.
<v Speaker 4>The Alliance and of Team WWF, and they were bouncing
<v Speaker 4>off of each other. So I think that we probably
<v Speaker 4>would not have seen a heel stone cold Steve Austin
<v Speaker 4>in two thousand and one.
<v Speaker 3>And obviously you.
<v Speaker 4>Have the personally shoes that were going on in his
<v Speaker 4>life as well, But I think that in wrestling at eighteen,
<v Speaker 4>instead of fighting Scott Home, maybe it would have been
<v Speaker 4>him fighting Hulk Hogan instead of the Rock, because again,
<v Speaker 4>bringing up the Rock probably does not get to that
<v Speaker 4>level if Austin does not get hurt in nineteen ninety nine.
<v Speaker 4>So there's just such a trickle down effect here that
<v Speaker 4>in a lot of ways it's positive because you were
<v Speaker 4>able to build another megastar in the absence of Austin.
<v Speaker 3>But then on the other.
<v Speaker 4>Hand, the WWE probably made a lot of booking decisions
<v Speaker 4>wrong ones at that because of the trickle down effects
<v Speaker 4>of that injury.
<v Speaker 2>That's the next big thing I wanted to ask, and
<v Speaker 2>I guess you answered it as far as would Hulk
<v Speaker 2>Hogan versus song called Steve Austin have happened, And my
<v Speaker 2>answer is probably yes, because as you alluded, to and
<v Speaker 2>I've alluded to he had personal issues, but a big
<v Speaker 2>contributing factor to that. The reason why all Austin has
<v Speaker 2>said this himself or that he didn't have a match
<v Speaker 2>with Hogan, he said it was twofold. He talked about
<v Speaker 2>his headspace. He wasn't in a good headspace. You know,
<v Speaker 2>that's a very vague thing to say, but I think
<v Speaker 2>the part of that headspace that he was in was injury.
<v Speaker 2>He said he was hurting, his neck was starting to
<v Speaker 2>flare up again. He had put on at that point
<v Speaker 2>two knee braces and that wasn't just for looks. That
<v Speaker 2>was because he actually needed them because as he had
<v Speaker 2>reflex problems with his legs stemming from his neck injury.
<v Speaker 2>So he also thought that Hogan couldn't keep up with him.
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he flat out said that. He said that
<v Speaker 2>Hulk Hogan, he was worried, wouldn't be able to keep
<v Speaker 2>up to the standard, the level of quality of a
<v Speaker 2>match that Austin had held himself too. He felt that
<v Speaker 2>Terry Blea Hulk Hogan wouldn't be able to keep up.
<v Speaker 2>And I understand that, I get what he's saying, but
<v Speaker 2>we all, as fans know the limitations of Hogan, Like,
<v Speaker 2>we all know that the guy is not exactly a
<v Speaker 2>chain wrestler. He is the cartoon of cartoon wrestlers that
<v Speaker 2>became a megastar in a household name. We understand that.
<v Speaker 2>But I think if the injury didn't happen, again, all
<v Speaker 2>other things being equal, and Austin reached the level that
<v Speaker 2>he did, if the injury didn't happen, because I mean, again,
<v Speaker 2>this is such a butterfly effect. If the injury didn't happen,
<v Speaker 2>if Austin didn't get to the level he would have
<v Speaker 2>gotten to, then the match with Hogan wouldn't have made
<v Speaker 2>sense because you would have been like Austin's kind of
<v Speaker 2>a big star, but not to the level of Hulk Hogan.
<v Speaker 2>So perhaps the injury got him to that level, but
<v Speaker 2>also took away the possibility of the Hogan match. So
<v Speaker 2>it's all such a butterfly effect game. But I think
<v Speaker 2>that Hogan and Austin most likely would have happened. I
<v Speaker 2>think his injuries would have or did contribute to his
<v Speaker 2>quote bad headspace that he had at that time, and
<v Speaker 2>they should have had the match at Wrestlemany eighteen. As
<v Speaker 2>good as the match was with Rock, and it was
<v Speaker 2>certainly good. I remember when he the Rock came out
<v Speaker 2>to confront Hogan. I'm like, okay, Rock, like awesome.
<v Speaker 3>We love you.
<v Speaker 2>This is a big match, but there's a you know,
<v Speaker 2>there's a bigger guy now behind you. There is a
<v Speaker 2>once in a lifetime matchup. Why are we choosing number
<v Speaker 2>two when we could choose number one of Austin Hogan?
<v Speaker 2>I remember that. Were you now again, I know you're
<v Speaker 2>a massive Rock fan, but were you slightly disappointed that
<v Speaker 2>even in that time, you weren't saying to yourself, why
<v Speaker 2>why aren't they choosing Austin? Why are they choosing the
<v Speaker 2>Rock right now?
<v Speaker 3>You know what?
<v Speaker 4>Like I, it wasn't so much that I was saying,
<v Speaker 4>why are they choosing the Rock in favor of Austin?
<v Speaker 4>I was more saying, why is Austin doing nothing? Because
<v Speaker 4>I still to this day, I've said it before, I'll
<v Speaker 4>say it again, the main event of that WrestleMania had
<v Speaker 4>to be Stone Cold Steve Austin versus Triple H for
<v Speaker 4>the World Championship.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.
<v Speaker 4>Because the thing is is that I do believe that
<v Speaker 4>in a lot of ways, the Rock made more sense.
<v Speaker 4>Aside from the fact that it was like Austin was
<v Speaker 4>that generation star and Hogan was the golden generation star.
<v Speaker 4>Like the Rock will never supersede Austin in that respect,
<v Speaker 4>But I do think that maybe the Rock's charisma was
<v Speaker 4>able to bring up for Hogan's lack thereof their wrestling styles.
<v Speaker 3>Like I remember that.
<v Speaker 4>Match like The Rock had to oversell like crazy to
<v Speaker 4>make it look somewhat decent in Toronto at Wrestuming at eighteen.
<v Speaker 4>So but it wasn't so much that I was saying, like,
<v Speaker 4>oh my god, it should be Austin. But even when
<v Speaker 4>I watched Wrestling eighteen bag Now, which in a lot
<v Speaker 4>of ways, aside from Rock Hogan was a bad WrestleMania,
<v Speaker 4>I just couldn't believe that you did not do Austin
<v Speaker 4>versus Triple H. Because look, we saw Austin Rock at
<v Speaker 4>a WrestleMania three times, two of those times for the
<v Speaker 4>World Championship. We saw Rock and Triple H against each
<v Speaker 4>other at Wrestling at sixteen, albeit in a fatal four way,
<v Speaker 4>but it was an elimination match, and pretty much the
<v Speaker 4>last half of that match was a one on one
<v Speaker 4>match with Rock and Triple H. And the year two
<v Speaker 4>thousand and was predominantly the Rock.
<v Speaker 3>Versus Triple Ah.
<v Speaker 4>So we had seen that before, but we had never
<v Speaker 4>seen Austin versus Triple h in terms of for the
<v Speaker 4>championship and at wrestling. I know we saw it in
<v Speaker 4>the Winter of two thousand slash two thousand and one,
<v Speaker 4>but I just did not understand why they didn't go
<v Speaker 4>with that. And it's nothing against Chris Jericho, you know,
<v Speaker 4>he got a rightful push and whatnot, but the lack
<v Speaker 4>of star power in that main event and nobody talks
<v Speaker 4>about that main event, and that was like the first
<v Speaker 4>time that Triple A should ever been pushed as a
<v Speaker 4>main event Babyface. So I think, you know, you could
<v Speaker 4>have gone Babyface versus Babyface. Austin should have gone into
<v Speaker 4>that WrestleMania as the undisputed champ. So to answer your
<v Speaker 4>question in kind of a roundabout way, it wasn't so
<v Speaker 4>much that I was saying, why is the Rock fighting
<v Speaker 4>Hogan in favor of Austin? It was more why is
<v Speaker 4>Austin doing flat out nothing at this Mania.
<v Speaker 2>With Scott Hall? And I'm embarrassed, no disrespect to Scott Hall.
<v Speaker 2>That's not a WrestleMania match. That's that's like you know,
<v Speaker 2>any other pay per view match, it's fine. Like Austin
<v Speaker 2>and as somebody of that caliber in the nWo, and
<v Speaker 2>what Scott Hall did obviously in WWF and then in WCW.
<v Speaker 3>That's fine.
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's not that Scott Hall's undeserving of it.
<v Speaker 2>But not at WrestleMania. That is a different animal. And
<v Speaker 2>stone cold to be in there with Scott Hall. I
<v Speaker 2>remember I was saying to myself, why do I feel
<v Speaker 2>like Austin doesn't matter at this pay per view?
<v Speaker 3>In real time?
<v Speaker 2>I mean I didn't have a podcast. I was, I
<v Speaker 2>don't know, sixteen seventeen years old, but what the hell's
<v Speaker 2>going on? It just you know, and he yes, he
<v Speaker 2>stunned Scott Hall into oblivion. And there's some hilarious jifts
<v Speaker 2>out there where he stuns Scott Hall and he like
<v Speaker 2>flies into space. I mean there's some really because he
<v Speaker 2>sold it like he got shot. I mean it was
<v Speaker 2>it was a complete oversell of the stunner. And he
<v Speaker 2>stunned Scott Hall as well, and you know he did
<v Speaker 2>his typical you know, drink beer and all that. It
<v Speaker 2>was fine, but I was like, this could be an
<v Speaker 2>ending to raw. This is not an ending to a
<v Speaker 2>WrestleMania and right after that. People forget this too, is
<v Speaker 2>he actually walked down in WWE the first time that
<v Speaker 2>during right after WrestleMania eighteen. Yes, we all know about
<v Speaker 2>the brock Lesner walkout, but this was the first one
<v Speaker 2>Vince had done an interview with. I think it was
<v Speaker 2>Bite This or Confidential when me and gene Oakerland was
<v Speaker 2>hosting it, and McMahon said, you know, this isn't the
<v Speaker 2>first time he's done it. You know, he said that
<v Speaker 2>Austin had done this one time before and that was
<v Speaker 2>after WrestleMania, and he said he chalked that up to
<v Speaker 2>burnout and he gave him a free pass. And then,
<v Speaker 2>of course we all know the second time that led
<v Speaker 2>to like a six or seven month absence from WWE
<v Speaker 2>ultimately to come back in the Bell Center in Montreal,
<v Speaker 2>one of the loudest reactions I've ever heard in my life.
<v Speaker 2>And you know that's a whole other show as well.
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, this to me was Austin Hogan. Yes, on paper,
<v Speaker 2>it should have happened. A Stone calls a bigger name
<v Speaker 2>than The Rock, and that's insane to say, given how
<v Speaker 2>big The Rock is. Would the match have been better quality.
<v Speaker 2>Probably not. I mean you have to sacrifice. I think
<v Speaker 2>you'd have to sacrifice a little bit of quality because
<v Speaker 2>their styles may not have matched up as well as
<v Speaker 2>the Rock and LK. Hogan's did. So I'm not complaining
<v Speaker 2>about that match, but for him to be in there
<v Speaker 2>with Scott Hall, it was just like, what's happening and
<v Speaker 2>Austin Rock. I'm sorry, Austin Triple H. How it never
<v Speaker 2>happened at a WrestleMania is beyond me. I think that
<v Speaker 2>it absolutely should have happened because those two matched up
<v Speaker 2>so well, and they're my favorite match of theirs was
<v Speaker 2>I think it was no way out two thousand and
<v Speaker 2>one when they had the three Stages of Hell match
<v Speaker 2>and they couldn't touch each other. That was so well done,
<v Speaker 2>and I'm thinking to myself, they could main event WrestleMania
<v Speaker 2>and we had Triple H as a babyface. It felt weird.
<v Speaker 2>Jericho was the heel, and I know that Triple H
<v Speaker 2>was trying to pedigree Stephanie for weeks and he finally
<v Speaker 2>was able to pedigree Stephanie, And I mean, that's the
<v Speaker 2>only thing I remember about that match, I mean at all.
<v Speaker 3>So well, like That's that's what I was gonna ask.
<v Speaker 4>You had Austin main evented WrestleMania eighteen with Triple H
<v Speaker 4>like it should have been, would we still be talking about, like,
<v Speaker 4>how was it not him versus Hogan? In favor of
<v Speaker 4>the Rock Maybe in some way, but in the same way.
<v Speaker 2>I think it would be brought up. But I don't
<v Speaker 2>think there'd be part two to this that you said
<v Speaker 2>of it's not that it necessarily wasn't Austin Hogan, but
<v Speaker 2>also it was Austin Scott Hall. It wasn't even a
<v Speaker 2>suitable replacement. Where that's the problem. I think you'd have
<v Speaker 2>taken care of half of the problem by saying, well,
<v Speaker 2>it was against Triple H. They had a badass match,
<v Speaker 2>Austin became champion again. I mean so, I mean the
<v Speaker 2>problem is you'll never take care of the problem that
<v Speaker 2>the first problem of it wasn't Huk Hogan versus Stone Cold?
<v Speaker 2>How did they miss that?
<v Speaker 3>You know?
<v Speaker 2>So that will never go away. But at least you
<v Speaker 2>could say, well, it was Austin Triple H. They kicked ass.
<v Speaker 2>It was great, where Scott Hall Austin was kind of
<v Speaker 2>it was forgettable. All you remember is the oversaw of
<v Speaker 2>the stunner, and that's pretty much it.
<v Speaker 5>So it was a joke, yeah, it was, It was.
<v Speaker 2>It was so all right, Well, I gonna go forward
<v Speaker 2>here now into two thousand and three. We all know
<v Speaker 2>what happened in the final match with the Rock in Seattle,
<v Speaker 2>Washington in March of two thousand and three. Austin does
<v Speaker 2>the favors for the Rock, and from that point of course,
<v Speaker 2>we see the sheriff, we see cogm, we see you know,
<v Speaker 2>fired and being rehired and all this stuff that of
<v Speaker 2>course always happens Towe when they fire somebody, which was entertaining.
<v Speaker 2>And I really loved him as the sheriff because it
<v Speaker 2>was Austin on my TV and he'd give people stunters
<v Speaker 2>and that's what we wanted to see. But I guess
<v Speaker 2>the ultimate question is, and I'm sure you have more too,
<v Speaker 2>so I'll toss it to you beyond this, But what
<v Speaker 2>do you think or when do you think? Ultimate question?
<v Speaker 2>When do you think Austin would have hung up the
<v Speaker 2>boots maybe around the same time as the Rock if
<v Speaker 2>he had not gone Hollywood, or like, what do you think?
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I think that Austin probably would have retired
<v Speaker 4>a bit earlier because he started in the business before
<v Speaker 4>the Rock Like, I think that we would have probably
<v Speaker 4>seen Austin go right to the end of Rutha Sagresch
<v Speaker 4>and for me, the culmination of the Ruthless Aggression era
<v Speaker 4>was wrestling at twenty three in two thousand and seven.
<v Speaker 4>You know, when Sina beat HBK take or beat Batista,
<v Speaker 4>we had.
<v Speaker 3>The beat all of the billionaires.
<v Speaker 4>So I think we would have seen Austin go right
<v Speaker 4>up until that point and then you know kind of
<v Speaker 4>ride off into the sunset. And I think that had
<v Speaker 4>he knock go One injured, he would have stayed on
<v Speaker 4>Monday Night Raw like he was just a Monday Night
<v Speaker 4>Raw guy, like he never fit on SmackDown. And I
<v Speaker 4>think we would have gotten our Austin versus Triple H
<v Speaker 4>WrestleMania match at some point, because Triple H really dominated
<v Speaker 4>Raw for the entirety of two thousand and three in
<v Speaker 4>two thousand and four, and there was kind of a
<v Speaker 4>rotating cast of babyfaces who challenged him over that time
<v Speaker 4>before you know, Batista and John Cena really exploded onto
<v Speaker 4>the scene, so you know, we had kind of Chris
<v Speaker 4>Jericho take a run at that Kevin Nash, HBK, Chris
<v Speaker 4>Benoit eventually, but I think we would have gotten Austin
<v Speaker 4>in that regard. We probably would have seen Austin versus
<v Speaker 4>Randy Orton because he was part of Evolution. Maybe we
<v Speaker 4>would have seen Austin versus Sewn Michaels Part two, like
<v Speaker 4>that would have just been awesome to see, and I
<v Speaker 4>always felt like that.
<v Speaker 3>A really cool dynamic.
<v Speaker 4>One of the coolest Austin HBK moments I think was
<v Speaker 4>at the end of Survivor Series two thousand and three
<v Speaker 4>when HBK tried valiantly to get the win for Team
<v Speaker 4>Austin and he lost, and he just like shook his
<v Speaker 4>hand and said like I'm sorry, like covered in blood
<v Speaker 4>the Crimson mask.
<v Speaker 3>As Jr. Would say.
<v Speaker 4>But I also think that his last match would have
<v Speaker 4>probably been against John Cena, because I've reviewed John Cena
<v Speaker 4>versus HBK at Wrestling at twenty three, and I said
<v Speaker 4>that although it was seen as third consecutive WrestleMania main
<v Speaker 4>event as the WWE Champion, that match beating Sean Michaels
<v Speaker 4>in the main event really legitimized scenas, like, Okay, this
<v Speaker 4>is a New Era in WWE, he beat the heartbreak
<v Speaker 4>head Shawn Michaels. This is the guy that was kind
<v Speaker 4>of like the stamp of approval, and I think that
<v Speaker 4>that spot probably would have gotten reserved for Stone Cold
<v Speaker 4>Steve Austin. And I think in a lot of ways,
<v Speaker 4>Sena versus Stone Cold Steve Austin is a program that
<v Speaker 4>I think no one's ever really fantasized about, because again
<v Speaker 4>we got the Rock versus Sceena, and it seems like
<v Speaker 4>because of that injury to Stone Cold Steve Austin, a
<v Speaker 4>lot of the moments he should have gotten went to
<v Speaker 4>the Rock. You know, we saw the Golden Era versus
<v Speaker 4>the Attitude Era, with the Rock being the Attitude era,
<v Speaker 4>and then we saw the Attitude Era against the PG Era,
<v Speaker 4>with the Rock being the Attitude Era again against Sena,
<v Speaker 4>which like I just said, probably would have been reserved
<v Speaker 4>for Stone Cold Steve Austin. So, you know, to kind
<v Speaker 4>of put a bow on it, I think that his
<v Speaker 4>final match would have likely been losing to John Cena
<v Speaker 4>Wrestling at twenty three.
<v Speaker 2>Well, you stole my thunder on that, and really that
<v Speaker 2>actually would have been exactly what I was going to
<v Speaker 2>say as far as when I'll say, you know what,
<v Speaker 2>I think it would have been the right thing to do,
<v Speaker 2>because as much as I was not necessarily a fan
<v Speaker 2>of the soft PG, family friendly, George wearing John Cena,
<v Speaker 2>going from just a stark contrast of Austin flipping the bird,
<v Speaker 2>drinking beer raising hell to this soft John Cena. Although
<v Speaker 2>the pgerra didn't start until late two thousand and eight,
<v Speaker 2>I understand that he was the face of the PG era.
<v Speaker 2>I mean he embodied hustle, loyalty, and respect where Austin
<v Speaker 2>was you know, give me a hell.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.
<v Speaker 2>It was just so it was like I was turning
<v Speaker 2>back into a child, and I did not like that.
<v Speaker 2>With John Cena now again massively popular, he's probably one
<v Speaker 2>of the best, if not arguably the best on the microphone. Ever,
<v Speaker 2>people don't understand how good John Cena is on the mic.
<v Speaker 2>He destroyed the rock and I hate to say that
<v Speaker 2>he destroyed the rock on the mic when on the
<v Speaker 2>rock came back, generally speaking, and so I think that
<v Speaker 2>that would have been the right move because it would
<v Speaker 2>have been a passing of the torch. I would have
<v Speaker 2>hated every part of my soul, would have just hated it.
<v Speaker 2>Because of my absolute disdain for the babyface character of
<v Speaker 2>John Cena, but I would have understood it. And I
<v Speaker 2>think John Cena was ready. He can talk. He yeah,
<v Speaker 2>he had the five moves of doom, but he had longevity.
<v Speaker 2>He was a smart guy, He looked the part. He
<v Speaker 2>was the right guy, and I understand that. So I
<v Speaker 2>would have hated it, but I would have understood it.
<v Speaker 2>The other thing is if Austin had done the favors
<v Speaker 2>for John Cna on the way out, which again is
<v Speaker 2>the right thing to do, I think what would have
<v Speaker 2>also happened is he would have come out of retirement
<v Speaker 2>once or twice after that. And I think possibly what
<v Speaker 2>would have happened is a CM punk Stone Cold Steve
<v Speaker 2>Austin match that they teased in I think it was
<v Speaker 2>twenty eleven or so when they had the interview with
<v Speaker 2>Jim Ross promoting the W two K twelve or something,
<v Speaker 2>and they were they actually had in that moment that
<v Speaker 2>purpose of that was actually too get to a match
<v Speaker 2>with those two, but they said it fell apart Austin
<v Speaker 2>had to get knee surgery, blah blah blah. So I
<v Speaker 2>think possibly Austin would have come o of retirement once
<v Speaker 2>or twice and done a couple of matches, one with Cmpunk,
<v Speaker 2>which I think is really like a zero percent chance
<v Speaker 2>at this point, but that to me is one of
<v Speaker 2>the things that also would have happened. And yeah, Austin
<v Speaker 2>probably would have hung it up against johnsona doing the
<v Speaker 2>Favorites at WrestleMania twenty three and then calling it a career.
<v Speaker 4>So yeah, and it's sad, right because much like The Rock,
<v Speaker 4>I felt like we kind of got robbed of, you know,
<v Speaker 4>the two biggest stars in the history of the company
<v Speaker 4>or of the industry rather. And it's kind of more
<v Speaker 4>sad with with Johnson with Stone Cold Steve Austin because
<v Speaker 4>like you brought up, the Rock was healthy and he
<v Speaker 4>just walked away and then it came back and kind
<v Speaker 4>of gave us almost like a full time run during
<v Speaker 4>twenty eleven twenty twelve. As opposed to Stone Cold Steve
<v Speaker 4>Austin that he just you know, he walked away in
<v Speaker 4>two thousand and three. He had the nice year long
<v Speaker 4>run as co GM slash sheriff, but aside from that,
<v Speaker 4>he hasn't been around for what is it eighteen years now.
<v Speaker 4>As opposed to The Rock that we got, you know,
<v Speaker 4>little taste here and there, and I still think that
<v Speaker 4>we will see the Rock back in the ring before
<v Speaker 4>he hangs them up.
<v Speaker 3>So me too.
<v Speaker 4>And the thing about Stone Cold Steve Austin is and
<v Speaker 4>as big as of a rock fan I am, the
<v Speaker 4>Rock never touches him. Stone Cold Steve Austin barnun the
<v Speaker 4>best of all time, most popular of all time, and
<v Speaker 4>just unanimously loved. Because you will always find a person
<v Speaker 4>or two who says, yeah, the Rock wasn't for me.
<v Speaker 4>I have yet to come across a wrestling fan who
<v Speaker 4>disliked Stone Cold Steve Austin.
<v Speaker 2>It's nearly impossible. I'm sure there's people out there that, well,
<v Speaker 2>he was just all about brawling. He wasn't a great wrestler.
<v Speaker 2>That to me, like seriously, I mean, he's his character
<v Speaker 2>was so authentic, so well done. He was intense, good
<v Speaker 2>to great on promos. His finishing maneuver is one of
<v Speaker 2>the most popular, if not the most popular, of all time.
<v Speaker 2>His music, his beer, I mean, like everything was just
<v Speaker 2>so awesome. And I don't know, I mean, you just
<v Speaker 2>mentioned eighteen years. It has been eighteen years, more than
<v Speaker 2>eighteen years now since we've seen Stone Cold in an
<v Speaker 2>actual match, and yet when he comes back, he gets
<v Speaker 2>the biggest pop out of the entire roster always. I mean,
<v Speaker 2>I was there in the Brooklyn Center when they did
<v Speaker 2>Raw twenty five and that pop was so loud when
<v Speaker 2>he came out stunned of course Vince McMahon and Shane
<v Speaker 2>McMahon twice, and it just it tells you that there
<v Speaker 2>will never be another Stone Cold Steve Aahson. And it's
<v Speaker 2>also kind of sad that they have not yet produced
<v Speaker 2>a reaction like that, and you're cheering for a guy
<v Speaker 2>that hasn't been in the year in the ring in
<v Speaker 2>nearly twenty years. It's just it's a testament to his longevity,
<v Speaker 2>his popularity, and also sadly kind of a kind of
<v Speaker 2>a speaks to the current roster and that the fact
<v Speaker 2>WW has been unable to really create the next megastar.
<v Speaker 2>John Cena may very well be that last mega megastar
<v Speaker 2>where they that he is bigger than the business. And yeah,
<v Speaker 2>Roman Reigns is certainly ascending very quickly as a heel,
<v Speaker 2>But right now, I mean I don't see anybody that
<v Speaker 2>is quote bigger than the business. I think the last
<v Speaker 2>person that was bigger than the business was John Cena,
<v Speaker 2>and I think WWE on purpose will not allow that
<v Speaker 2>to happen again because that gives that particular star, that
<v Speaker 2>person more leverage than the business, which is a very
<v Speaker 2>very tough thing to do as a star. And it
<v Speaker 2>also again doesn't give the business or WWE the ability
<v Speaker 2>to say, Nope, we're doing this or that, and you know,
<v Speaker 2>you have to do this and you can't go on
<v Speaker 2>this show or that. When you reach the level of
<v Speaker 2>John Cena, The Rock and Austin, you have the ability
<v Speaker 2>the freedom to do what you want, and WWE likes
<v Speaker 2>their controls. So I don't think we'll see a star
<v Speaker 2>of that magnitude maybe ever.
<v Speaker 4>And the thing is is that I love good heels,
<v Speaker 4>you know. I think that it's done wonders for a
<v Speaker 4>lot of careers like Triple H arguably the best of
<v Speaker 4>all time, Randy Orton what we're seeing in Roman with
<v Speaker 4>Roman reigns right now. But the fact of the matter
<v Speaker 4>is is that unless you could get over in a
<v Speaker 4>megaway as a babyface, you will never become.
<v Speaker 3>Bigger than the business.
<v Speaker 4>And that's what The Rock did, That's what Austin did,
<v Speaker 4>That's what Hogan did. That's what John Cena did in
<v Speaker 4>a way, that's kind of what Batista did as well.
<v Speaker 4>But for guys like Orton and Rains and Triple h
<v Speaker 4>they were never like the big mega babyfaces.
<v Speaker 5>They were always just the over the top heels.
<v Speaker 4>And that's great, But I think that you can't trance
<v Speaker 4>end the business unless you get over as a babyface.
<v Speaker 3>Would you not agree?
<v Speaker 2>Babyface?
<v Speaker 3>Right?
<v Speaker 4>Exactly?
<v Speaker 3>I am.
<v Speaker 2>I actually love hot heels in a way a little
<v Speaker 2>bit more than a baby face. We all love great
<v Speaker 2>baby faces. They're the ones that make us cheer, we
<v Speaker 2>buy their merch, and they're the ones that brings smiles
<v Speaker 2>to our faces. I understand all that. But yes, so
<v Speaker 2>to answer your question, yes, you have to get to
<v Speaker 2>the mega baby face level certainly to do that, But
<v Speaker 2>I think a hot ass heel run gets you there,
<v Speaker 2>and I don't think WWE knows how to create real
<v Speaker 2>heels today.
<v Speaker 3>I don't think.
<v Speaker 2>I mean, Randy Orton last summer was probably the closest
<v Speaker 2>we've seen. Roman Reigns right now is on track, but
<v Speaker 2>they are rare, and hot heels create hot baby faces.
<v Speaker 2>In general, I think wrestling is based around and foundationally
<v Speaker 2>around hot heels, because you can't just have a bunch
<v Speaker 2>of great people who have you know, have their moral
<v Speaker 2>compasses in line and they're just so great and telling
<v Speaker 2>us about our dreams like Metallia did this past week
<v Speaker 2>of Oh you know, just if anyone looks at us
<v Speaker 2>and wants to think that their dreams aren't dead, well
<v Speaker 2>ours aren't either. And I don't need all that, just
<v Speaker 2>this disgusting, like incessant need every time a baby face
<v Speaker 2>wins a championship to talk about and I want you
<v Speaker 2>to look to me, to to you know, if you
<v Speaker 2>need inspiration in your life. I mean seriously, if somebody
<v Speaker 2>is really looking at them in their life going oh well,
<v Speaker 2>thank god, I was about to end it all if
<v Speaker 2>I didn't see the talle you win the championship, you
<v Speaker 2>know I was. I mean, seriously, this is I can't
<v Speaker 2>stand that crap. I don't think they understand how to
<v Speaker 2>really create either very well right now. There's so much
<v Speaker 2>ambiguity and in between, which is why there's a lot
<v Speaker 2>of indifference towards the product. More often than not, is
<v Speaker 2>because there's very few people who are truly over either
<v Speaker 2>heel or baby It's it's something that I don't think
<v Speaker 2>that they truly know or understand how to do right now,
<v Speaker 2>or they just don't care to put the effort in
<v Speaker 2>or both. I don't know, but it is yeah, right
<v Speaker 2>now it is a massive problem indifference on the product.
<v Speaker 4>Well, look, I'll just give you an example of a
<v Speaker 4>casual like WWE follower.
<v Speaker 3>Like, my girlfriend really like.
<v Speaker 4>Drew McIntyre, probably because he's a very attractive guy. She
<v Speaker 4>also liked the character when he was he and then
<v Speaker 4>when he turned babyface, she really liked him this and that.
<v Speaker 4>But right around late last summer, around let's say the
<v Speaker 4>fall time, she started disliking him. And then even myself,
<v Speaker 4>I was just like, you know, they just transitioned his
<v Speaker 4>character from a relatable guy when you come out let's say,
<v Speaker 4>like in a suit or just like a T shirt
<v Speaker 4>and jeans, and then they just turned him into braveheart,
<v Speaker 4>you know, walking out with like a sword and a kilt.
<v Speaker 4>And it's just like, I feel like they don't really
<v Speaker 4>know how to get either over right now, and.
<v Speaker 5>Especially with their baby faces.
<v Speaker 4>It's just like they get over being super you know, authentic,
<v Speaker 4>and that's how Drew McIntire did.
<v Speaker 3>Like I don't even know if there was ever a true.
<v Speaker 4>Baby face turned for Drew or if they just did
<v Speaker 4>this gradual, slow process leading up to the Rumble in
<v Speaker 4>twenty twenty and then people naturally just got behind him.
<v Speaker 3>But then it's just like, Okay, he's over.
<v Speaker 4>Now we got to turn him into a cartoon character
<v Speaker 4>and now he's brave heart, Like what.
<v Speaker 3>Mas she come out?
<v Speaker 4>Quite literally with the face paint on. I was just like,
<v Speaker 4>oh my god, it's literally William Wallace, that's what they're
<v Speaker 4>turning this into. So I think Drew McIntyre is kind
<v Speaker 4>of like a microcosm of what's wrong with babyfaces in
<v Speaker 4>particular and why they just camp both them right now.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's I mean, that's a whole conversation. I mean,
<v Speaker 2>I'm restraining myself from diving deeper. I'm gonna, unfortunately have
<v Speaker 2>to cut off the conversation because I don't want to
<v Speaker 2>go into it. It will take me a long time
<v Speaker 2>and into a dark, deep hole about the fact of
<v Speaker 2>really their inability to create babyfaces and heels effectively long
<v Speaker 2>term and stick with it and not flip flop and
<v Speaker 2>be kind of in between. To me, tweener is called laziness.
<v Speaker 2>I don't need the ww to tell me, well, in
<v Speaker 2>real life there's shades of gray. It's not everybody's all
<v Speaker 2>good and everybody's all bad. I would say, nonsense, Yes,
<v Speaker 2>we have all good and bad inside of us. But
<v Speaker 2>when I'm watching a story, I don't want to could
<v Speaker 2>somebody and go, yeah, I don't know what to think.
<v Speaker 2>I get it, like they're angry, but they're doing something
<v Speaker 2>that's kind of malicious. Should they take it to that level?
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to feel in between and to me,
<v Speaker 2>when they tell us the excuse of well, it's shades
<v Speaker 2>of gray, that's mimics real life in a story. Though,
<v Speaker 2>when I'm watching a movie, I don't want to feel
<v Speaker 2>in between about somebody because that takes you out of it.
<v Speaker 2>You don't care. Emotional investment goes out the door. So
<v Speaker 2>that's laziness that is not excused. That doesn't excuse the
<v Speaker 2>fact that they can't come up with a formula and
<v Speaker 2>stick with it and create new stars. It has been
<v Speaker 2>a long time since we've seen big, big stars that
<v Speaker 2>you feel strongly about. Roman Reigns is an exception, and
<v Speaker 2>they finally turn them heel. But yeah, as far as
<v Speaker 2>Juw McIntyre goes, he certainly has kind of gone down
<v Speaker 2>the list for me, and it's gonna be nice. Hopefully
<v Speaker 2>after tonight he loses and he does not chase the
<v Speaker 2>w W Championship anymore. I want him out of the
<v Speaker 2>w W title picture. I want to see what they
<v Speaker 2>can do with him when he's not talking about the championship.
<v Speaker 2>And I'm all four championships, but I want him to
<v Speaker 2>I want him in a personal feud. I want him
<v Speaker 2>looking for revenge. I want him in something different. His
<v Speaker 2>identity is all about the ww Championship, and look, I
<v Speaker 2>love championships, That's why they're there. But I feel like
<v Speaker 2>Drew needs a different path. So I'll end there. Do
<v Speaker 2>you have any final thoughts?
<v Speaker 3>No, no, No, that's it. I think we.
<v Speaker 4>Still called Steve Austin and then we went down have
<v Speaker 4>a bit of a rabbit hole.
<v Speaker 2>I know always happened, so, but I think we mainly
<v Speaker 2>stayed on track with Austin, biggest baby face, biggest star
<v Speaker 2>of all time. As I always say, people argue, oh,
<v Speaker 2>well Hogan was bigger, or you know, nWo or Hollywood Hogan.
<v Speaker 2>I mean no, I would say Austin did not last
<v Speaker 2>the longest he lasted in his in his peak four
<v Speaker 2>years maybe five tops, and yet he to me was
<v Speaker 2>the hottest ever. He didn't burn the longest, but he
<v Speaker 2>burned the hottest, and I don't think anybody in the
<v Speaker 2>foreseeable future will even come close to that level. An
<v Speaker 2>absolute icon in the business, transformed the business, and it's
<v Speaker 2>unfortunate his career got cut short. But as we outlined
<v Speaker 2>at the beginning, there were some benefits to that happening,
<v Speaker 2>albeit not really outweighed or or definitely outweighed by the negative.
<v Speaker 2>So Anthony, as always, this has been a pleasure. I'm
<v Speaker 2>looking forward to doing this again next week, and I
<v Speaker 2>hope you enjoy the pay per view tonight.
<v Speaker 3>You too, man, I can't wait to do this again
<v Speaker 3>next Saturday.
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, take care alr bye