What “Love Story” Got Wrong: Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy’s Friend Reacts After the Finale

[SPEAKER_00]: Guy, thank you so much for joining me again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm misunderstood.
[SPEAKER_00]: How have you been in the last couple weeks?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've had quite a ride with you basically.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've had a lot of followers and three and a half million people have viewed my Instagram.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, at least, because they viewed mine too.
[SPEAKER_00]: They viewed the YouTube all sorts of things that are just not on your Instagram.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've been on inside edition.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've been in people, because you're getting offers from all sorts of media ever since you are on the show a couple of weeks ago to talk about your relationship with Carolyn Bessette, which is fascinating.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, are you surprised?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's still bizarre for me, you know, because I've kept quiet for so long for these 30 years and now all of a sudden I feel like I've been sprung into the limelight over this so yeah it's just a small snippet of what she encountered can you imagine what it would be like for them now with all these social medias.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was going to ask you that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I forgot to ask you that last time.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think she would think of all that's being made of her right now from the memes that everyone's making and the girls, you know, trying to replicate her fashion to, you know, the fact that there's a documentary out about her or a documentary series that people are just absolutely enthralled with.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think in one way she would love the fashion part that she wouldn't understand it completely because she didn't really try too hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but that's kind of the point.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was effortless for her and now here all these people are trying so hard to look like her and you know where her lip gloss color and it was bizarre right so how would she feel about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, I know she wouldn't like the social media aspect at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: She'd probably have a fake name on there just so she could watch her friends, you know, and it's kind of like what my sister does, the same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't believe in it, but they want to know where we are at all times.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right, of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what do you think she would think of the fact that there's this new show out, it's been put in nine parts, and that everybody has been waiting every Thursday night for every episode, like what she think that that's fascinating,
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it would be a combination of the two.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember that when she was in the limelight, she was collecting every article ever written about her and putting in a scrapbook to tell you that, I don't remember.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you started to mention that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and I saw them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was horrified and delighted at the same time because here's a woman that didn't like the press, but here she was collecting everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because she knew that later on, and she was old, and things were different.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe things were commerce.
[SPEAKER_01]: She would like to look back and say, hey, look what they thought of me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look what they said.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's kind of silly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and it's interesting that you say that because let's talk about the perception that she's been portrayed as a certain person in this series.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think people have called her complicated, isolated, struggling under pressure, even cold, and cold in her representation of her relationship with John.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think that that is accurate?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, that is not accurate.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was, okay, so just to give you a time frame, I left Cardi a June 11th, 1999.
[SPEAKER_01]: They died July, I forgot the date, July something.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a month later, basically.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in that time frame, I spoke to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: We wrote to each other, not in emails, but in actual letters, because it just was too complicated.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she was going through,
[SPEAKER_01]: machinations of a new marriage, and it's not something that's unusual.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you're going going through this with a new marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you have to find your your footing with each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I think part of the issue is what we remember is the last bit of their life right before they died.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I don't want people to remember.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want people to remember
[SPEAKER_01]: embracing human being that she was.
[SPEAKER_01]: She wasn't cold.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you look at her, she's always got her head down.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's of self protection.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's nothing more than that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think it was a little insecurity, too?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think she was insecure in the limelight.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, being thrown into the limelight as the most beautiful, the most fashionable and the one that married the most handsome man, most eligible bachelor in the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot to live up to.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot to live up to and she knew it, but you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think she did a damn good job.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I saw her a lot privately.
[SPEAKER_01]: I never saw her unless we were at George together.
[SPEAKER_01]: I never saw her whether the people just she and I.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had lunch together.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was in a apartment, you know, this kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was always just her.
[SPEAKER_01]: she needed that in order to feel grounded and not to feel like she's, you know, always on display.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, by the way, speaking of her apartment, you talked about it last time.
[SPEAKER_00]: The, the apartment is shown more and more throughout the series.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that what her apartment looked like?
[SPEAKER_01]: A little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, when you, when you got, I think I spoke of this last time.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you get off the elevator,
[SPEAKER_01]: there was a bedroom to the right and like an office bedroom.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think John use it as his office.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then to the left again, that part was pretty similar.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: The open case off was love like high ceilings, the kitchen to the right, the dining and then the living room and then a den off the kitchen that they're very simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it wasn't totally decorate.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was really simple and John had these unusual chairs that he loved.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, I think I thought they were behemium, but they were Caribbean in nature.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those were his favorite chairs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish I had the picture of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like colorful?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no wood.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wood.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, just very simple.
[SPEAKER_01]: The decorations were minimal, which is put it that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I came across in the show that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think they did a good job there.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was only one floor.
[SPEAKER_01]: They had it as a loft second loft, but that wasn't true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, the season finale came out last night and we both watched it and I know we want to talk about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to talk about episode eight for a minute.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hated it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you did.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really wanted to talk about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a strong word, but I really didn't decide to immensely.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't true.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: It will tell people that are listening what season what episode eight was.
[SPEAKER_01]: Episode eight was basically them.
[SPEAKER_01]: arguing the whole time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And her never leaving her apartment for a year.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, which is totally not true.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was not true.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was with her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, I did go to their apartment during that time, but also I was with her eating out for lunch.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I did run into them.
[SPEAKER_01]: at a party.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they, they were in that place.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was, I was seeing her at George.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was seeing him at George.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and Rosemary Tremenzio, you know, that whole group, they were all there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it wasn't like she was avoiding the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it wasn't true that she disappeared for a fully year.
[SPEAKER_01]: She did not disappear.
[SPEAKER_00]: where media was saying things like, where is she or are you getting a divorce?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I do remember the media started to have a narrative.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they did.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they have, you know, resurrected that a little bit now to talk about the place they were at because as we get into the ninth episode, the finale.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it shows them either coming back together after some sort of separation or what it depicts here is that they are kind of working on things after they've had a hard time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it almost seems like they've had a hard time because of her inability to function within his world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely true.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is true.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she had a hard time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Understanding what was needed of her in this new world that she was thrown into.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now everybody says,
[SPEAKER_01]: I, how could she not know what she was getting into?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, unless you're in it yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: How would you know what that feels like?
[SPEAKER_01]: And what do you have, what's expected of you?
[SPEAKER_01]: John just expected her as I knew, because she told me, expected her to just go with the flow, that she was, you know, she was a confident, strong woman, but this really took a toll on her as we all know.
[SPEAKER_01]: from my understanding that was constant.
[SPEAKER_01]: It fluctuates.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, when there's a thousand paparazzi thrusting cameras in your face, of course you're going to be upset and you're going to retract and maybe that'll last a day or so, but then she's out there clipping magazine articles about herself good and bad and enjoying that process.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, it wasn't a constant thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, as somebody who's been through a sliver of what she went through and having 50 paparazzi outside my house for a while, you you do learn to live with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You learn to have a relationship with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they they it's almost a little bit of a security thing too.
[SPEAKER_00]: They they are protecting you.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you learn to have a navigator.
[SPEAKER_00]: You do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I was thrust into something
[SPEAKER_00]: where it becomes hard is when you see a narrative in the media, talking about you a certain way, or a sort of paparazzi or throwing questions at you that are negative and nasty, that's when it gets really hard because those are the things you have to read and feel terrible about yourself or you're embarrassed that your family's seeing it or your friends, and then you feel really isolated.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that I think I understand, but I didn't understand the perception that she married him and it almost seemed like she didn't want to any kind of
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not the case.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so explain that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They both were made in love with each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't really show that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It does not.
[SPEAKER_01]: It does not.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think if you ask anybody that knew them.
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll see that's the same answer.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK. Of course, every marriage and every new marriage has blips and turns in the road.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you find your way.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not something that everybody can understand that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not something that's unusual.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just that their blip came at the end of their life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's what we remember.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you imagine if they had lived to be 60 something now, right, 64 or whatever?
[SPEAKER_01]: That wouldn't even be remembered because they would have had all this other beautiful life since then to annihilate that little moment yeah, and that's what's missing is and that's what I that's why I came out because basically to try to get people to understand who she really was I don't have that much insight on jog is only met in five or six times but
[SPEAKER_01]: with her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, the guy that portrayed John in the show did a fantastic job.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fantastic.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think he nailed it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the girl that played Carolyn's part didn't have a lot to work with, meaning she didn't have a lot of videos and interviews all that stuff like we had with John since he was born, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just didn't have that with Carolyn.
[SPEAKER_01]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: emulator.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think she did a fair job with what she had, but she didn't get the personality.
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't get the empathy, the kindness, the generosity that was completely not there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, in the season finale, people are saying it was tasteful, respectful, emotional, what are your thoughts?
[SPEAKER_01]: I had a really hard time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, all these years later, I, after watching it, I realized that I put Carolyn in a box to try to forget, you know, you were my first call after I watched at this morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to be honest with you, I was laying in bed watching this morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I shook uncontrollably, it was horrifying.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think because I had to live through it again.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it made me realize that I had literally put her in a box.
[SPEAKER_01]: I put all that stuff in the state due to posse box and forgot about it for, you know, 30 years or whatever, 27 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, um, there was the most emotional part watching the plain scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or what was it for you?
[SPEAKER_01]: The, the plane was hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I grew up in small planes.
[SPEAKER_01]: My whole family had planes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I took lessons.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't do very well, but I took lessons.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I kind of understood.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was watching the instruments and sorry, I was getting kind of emotional and I just realized, well, that was happening that I had put her in a box.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what really moved me because I thought Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: I compartmentalize this whole thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, you do that to protect yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I was protecting her all this time too in the process.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of weird to think about these things all these years later.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the whole part, the whole thing was hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the part where they kind of got back together and therapist and all that stuff was interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember any of that to be honest with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I talked to her, I don't know, the week or so before.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't have any of that insight.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was good to watch for me, but it was hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: The part about the plane, I found to be very sad.
[SPEAKER_00]: The thought, and I know I've heard people talk about it after that they probably didn't know that they were about to have an impact, but they knew something or he, John, must have known that something was wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure they were petrified going into that fog.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been in that kind of fog with my mom and my stepfather, it's not easy, but they were instrument rated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even with that, it's difficult.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was not at that point, John.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he could only fly for people that are listening.
[SPEAKER_00]: He could only fly visually and he did they show him calling earlier in the day and finding out what the weather was and that it was supposed to be complete, you know, perfect vision.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said in that show that he was flying VFR.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a visual.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he was explaining that to somebody that that's how he was.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, no, when you call in for your flight, you have to say I'm flying VFR or I'm flying, you know, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Be specific.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess your level is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I see.
[SPEAKER_00]: You see what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in that person on the phone thought it was fine, because the weather looked right.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he was supposed to take up at like six o'clock.
[SPEAKER_01]: They took up like 820 or 830 or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was the other thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Unless I missed it, because I went to the bathroom or something, I didn't see that there was any who plot about her running late.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was there in the show?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: So people don't know that unless they shelter their nails done, all the paparazzi outside.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I did notice is that they made a continuity mistake.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you noticed.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they show her getting her nails done and then they show her in the car pulling up and her nails were not done.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, I noticed.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's a great.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: For you to pick that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But as a person that, you know, Ryan Murphy, I would have thought that they would fix that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So watching those instruments made me anxious and it was, it made me anxious too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we all knew what was coming.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't imagine what they felt for that last second.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope I never do feel that kind of fear.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, that's horrifying.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was horrifying for me to watch this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: I needed to from my own.
[SPEAKER_01]: cleanliness of spirit, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I needed to watch it because when they passed away, I literally, the only thing I did was write a check to her charity and write a note to her mom about her and Lauren, and I put it aside.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what do you think about that?
[SPEAKER_00]: So they show the mom and they show her being angry and her face.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that she's lost two children, which the world doesn't really know anything about.
[SPEAKER_00]: And no one really cared about it seemed.
[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't pay, nobody paid attention to this poor girl Lauren.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't even, even in all this and all the news that's happened, I don't even remember if I've ever read what she did, who she was, if she was dating married, you know, she was single, she was on Wall Street as I recall.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was, you know, she had a twin sister Lisa, Lisa who's still alive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Identical?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're identical.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's an interesting that we've never really heard again from Lisa or the parents.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know if Carol and parents are alive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are they?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I thought about that this morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought...
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought actually I should write her a letter.
[SPEAKER_01]: She'd have to be in her heat.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's at least.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And no one, you haven't seen any interviews with their family at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's a reason for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, probably because of the settlement.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: They got a big sentiment.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how much it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: And rightfully so, Ron, Ron, Clube Death, so... To never talk about their feelings.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would imagine so.
[SPEAKER_01]: I imagine they'd never talked about it for a reason.
[SPEAKER_00]: That would make sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing that got me that I really started crying about was Carolines to pick met in that.
[SPEAKER_00]: how devastated she was and it made me really sad to see that emotion in that actor.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: She did a great job.
[SPEAKER_00]: She did a great job and it really made you feel empathetic to Caroline.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she people talk shit about her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why?
[SPEAKER_00]: She's just a nice woman like kids and that's not ever how she's represented.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's represented that she's in a marriage where she lives apart from her husband that she
[SPEAKER_00]: got the ugly stick that she's boring, that she's, you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like people write terrible things about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But she was ambassador to the Japan.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was she smart woman?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and chose her path of trying to be private in a very public world and having been dealt a ton of loss.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I understood like what the continues her daughter just died.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did I know that her daughter just died?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Went like a month ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of, I think it was cancer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_01]: She just had a baby recently.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and just, oh my god, terrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the loss that this woman has gone through is endless.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's endless and she's still perseveres in her own way.
[SPEAKER_01]: God bless her.
[SPEAKER_00]: God bless her as I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it made me think about her in a different light to be honest it because I never really thought about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because nobody thinks about her, which is good for her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's what's worse, but yeah, she deserves a lot of compassion during this and then what it also made me think of is Rory I wonder what Rory how does Rory get through the I often wondered I think the winning still took place I was going to ask you if you know
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what, I thought about that today again for the last first time in 30 years or 20.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ellie, can you Google if that happened, Rory was, so for people that are listening, Rory was the family member of John, cousin, and they were flying to high on a sport?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for the family wedding.
[SPEAKER_00]: For the wedding of Rory that weekend when they were killed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they were dropping off Lauren in Martha's Vineyard for the weekend.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they were going to take off again and go, oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, can you imagine there's no way this could have happened because the fog rolled in to Martha's Vineyard and they, that means they would never have been able to get to Hyena's port.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what would have happened?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Lori had a wedding two weeks later in Greece and they canceled it that weekend.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, how obviously how can I say how could you have a wedding?
[SPEAKER_01]: And how does that?
[SPEAKER_01]: make Rory feel going on with her life, having had her cousin and his wife and her sister die on their way to her wedding.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, that's, and I'm also curious if that marriage lasted.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I wonder if there was a
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, a black magic type of feeling, you know, going into that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can imagine.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can imagine.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's been a lot of backlash on this show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Kennedy Circle has come out and said that they are completely, you know, they do not support it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't like how either one of them was depicted.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they really stick with their feelings on John.
[SPEAKER_00]: And how he was depicted.
[SPEAKER_00]: Speaking of that, you know, I find it interesting because he comes off as somebody that you really want to
[SPEAKER_01]: cocky.
[SPEAKER_00]: In parts, but he also comes off a little dumb, you know, like he, you know, he, it's kind of do, do, do, do, do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can't get it together and his friend is quitting on him at George because he can't get a shit together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it also seems like he has his priorities mixed up because he wants to go to all these events.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which I don't know if I bought into that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like his whole life, he's had to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a responsibility that he felt like he needed to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And just because someone comes into your life doesn't mean you change that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he was trying to keep a magazine together.
[SPEAKER_00]: He has, or he had aspirations for himself, not to just be a husband, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think we all knew that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think that somebody should take that away from him just because he had places to be that his priority wasn't having lunch with his wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: let me give you a little insight on something.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, Hillary Clinton ran for a Senate seat in New York.
[SPEAKER_01]: John had considered that, but because Hillary, what the ex first lady was going to run, he didn't do it, he didn't challenge or anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
[SPEAKER_01]: myself and a few girlfriends of mine we had an art event in raised like three million dollars for Hillary's Senate campaign.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of money back then for a Senate campaign.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that we were invited to this private little talk to reception in somebody's apartment of Fifth Avenue.
[SPEAKER_01]: My sister came as my date and we went and John and Carolyn were there and they arrived after we did.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Carolyn said, you know, we kissed a low and blah, blah, blah, and talked and she said, John, can we just go out for a burger with Guy and Claudia?
[SPEAKER_01]: do we have to do this because they were still standing in the lobby of this big apartment yeah really going in yet in Chuck Schumer was on a video and all these monkey mugs were there but it was a small group and she and he said Karen we have to do this right and she just said I'm so sorry I'm so much rather be with guy in Claudia you know yeah just having a burger of course you know so there there's the exact
[SPEAKER_01]: example of what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was duty versus what she would rather do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's got to put a strain on a marriage because you could see both sides.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do want to get back to the question that you said a lot of people ask you how could she not know.
[SPEAKER_00]: They did date for three years before they got engaged or married.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not like she didn't see how much attention she was getting when it came out that she was the girlfriend.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it did seem, especially in the episodes at the end in eight and nine,
[SPEAKER_00]: seven eight nine that she couldn't handle it that she didn't like it that she felt like she was sold to billet, you know, a bad Bill of goods, you know, like she wasn't sold anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me just say that she wasn't told or sold anything She fell in love with a man and When you do you take everything that comes with him his family his job his life
[SPEAKER_01]: some things are easier than others.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's got married.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are parts that make you feel isolated, which is purely natural.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it was just heightened because of the situation she was in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
[SPEAKER_00]: All in all, now that this series is done, what do you think about it in general?
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, if somebody who's known her and the big question is like, we've all watched this story, but now we want to know the truth, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: People want to know, what's real, what's not, what's the takeaway about Carolyn in general?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so with all these millions of views I've had on my Instagram,
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people are asking me this question.
[SPEAKER_01]: What was she really like?
[SPEAKER_01]: We hear you talking about her, but is there something you haven't said?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there more insight you can give us?
[SPEAKER_01]: And what I can say is I only knew the part of her that was caring, kind, generous, and empathetic to a point of a fault almost.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the gift she's given my mother and the note she's written me and the note she's written my mother, someone she never met because she felt empathetic towards her and knew that she'd lost a child.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, what a twist of faith that is, then, you know, Carolyn's mother loses two children.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I always felt remorse that I didn't do more for her, but I wanted to for the mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to give her space.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I could, right now, I'd hug her constantly, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: What else can you do?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did I answer that question?
[SPEAKER_01]: You did.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK. You did.
[SPEAKER_00]: And today, Guy brought in the earrings that Caroline had bought his mom.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know I've seen you do a couple posts and we collaborated on some.
[SPEAKER_00]: But explain them a little bit as we're looking down.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there are three colors of gold.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you can see this on.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to do a close-up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are three colors of gold with a clip in a post, and they're just a little huggie from Cartier in the rolling wing motif.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're quite beautiful and simple.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then so a lot of people asked me about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do they make a version of that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not exactly the same, but it's pretty much similar.
[SPEAKER_01]: But most people are really asking me about the watch that she's always seen wearing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a sterling, silver, cardigan, limus, to cardigan, tank watch.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is mine.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually have this.
[SPEAKER_01]: hers was on a black strap.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's what it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a sterling, silver watch.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone thinks it's gold.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was one of those fancy watches that belonged to the candidates forever.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't want that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was gifted as I told you.
[SPEAKER_01]: at a Geneva dinner, a solid gold tank front says on a gold bracelet, the lady's size.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why she brought it in to Cartier.
[SPEAKER_01]: She just didn't want it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: She tried to give it back to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, I know what this just take it back.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's why I gave her a store credit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was that store credit that she used for the watch and the earrings that she gave my mom and this necklace that I'm wearing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, talk about the necklace.
[SPEAKER_00]: So guy, if for people that are listening and I'll watch and guys wearing a single solitary diamond is that how you would own it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very simple.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's on a platinum chain.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a little less in a carrot.
[SPEAKER_01]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: It was part of her true cell, basically, that John gave her, and I redesigned the jewelry into something that she could wear, a three stone ring, a pair of diamond studs, and three pendants.
[SPEAKER_01]: The pendants were really supposed to go to her and her two sisters.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, but she decided to give it to my mom.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she gave it to me, I gave it to my mom and my mom wore it for like 20 something years and my mom just gave it back to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm wearing it because I feel like it's part of her,
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I tried to give all this memorabilia to Cartier for their museum.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have a huge private museum in Geneva and a travels and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they have an archives department, all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And since I work there for 12 years, and I know a lot of the people that are still executives there, I thought,
[SPEAKER_01]: This is something we should do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my mom agreed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Give the earrings and the pendant and all the paperwork that I have to cardier.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the other day, cardier called me and they said, we, after a year and a half of talking to them, just started a year and a half ago, they said, you know, we really think you should just put it up for auction and maybe we'll bid on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just like, what does that mean exactly?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: What doesn't mean anything?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought maybe they just want the publicity for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I don't know what to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think I should do?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it depends on the sentimental value that you have, you know, but after I'm gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I was just kind of just about to say, I mean, you don't have, you know, you're not passing it down to a daughter.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it doesn't make sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your mother is the only one who would care really or care, but here's since maybe not going to.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not big enough, but I think that it might be interesting to see, you know, who cares about it enough to pay for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that could be interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, eventually, maybe you want to put it in the hands of someone that really loves that and will honor that legacy as opposed to just having it sort of disappear into.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope somebody writes it and tells me what to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a good point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe somebody who's listening might reach out to Guy and his Instagram will put it on our our show notes about their thoughts on what you should do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Have you done a post about that yet?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, that's a good idea for a post.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a good idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let me know what you want me to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: way to have something else to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay go.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of people in writing to me and saying you need to write a book.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I did start a book basically on my life in the jewelry world because it's continued to evolve since I'm a child basically.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this has been a really big part of it now.
[SPEAKER_01]: You helping me with this and all this conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I am writing a book but
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think I should write a book?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you should write a book, but I think you have so many good stories.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't just have to be about your relationship with Gary.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, it isn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about all my other clients.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be a few chapters or a chapter.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it already was.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this whole thing changes the scope of at least part of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: For sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And gives you some press and advance, you know, so that people want more and can listen and have it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, in a format they can read and consume it that way as opposed to just listening to a conversation when you write you'll think of all sorts of stories that you didn't remember or just that's what you're in a monologue exactly that's what's been happening like I wrote this whole thing about Elizabeth Taylor she was my client for years and she was fabulous and.
[SPEAKER_01]: So tiny with such a big head.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, really.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she had like a TV head.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know people with bigger heads look good on TV.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've never noticed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but like did you have big hair.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she had a big face both interests.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then skinny body.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and big boobs and a little tiny person.
[SPEAKER_00]: And sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like five feet tall.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who else was a good client.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I.
[SPEAKER_01]: For an interesting client.
[SPEAKER_01]: I only talk about the ones that are deceased.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, are there any more that are deceased that you could talk about?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, um, of course, Jackie O'Nasses.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her sister Lee Radsie will.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: That whole contingent of Upper East Side ladies, they were all pretty much my clients.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about the Roswell family for a second.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you've been in touch with Carol since just because of your podcast and I did she listen, do you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: But my snippets on my Instagram, she's seen.
[SPEAKER_01]: She has.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, there was a connection with a woman who does something on Instagram that called the two misses.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and she and I connected about a year ago and we've been talking about this kind of thing, and so she and Carol had connected, I don't know how, but because of that snippet, Carol wrote out, you know, she wrote to me and said, oh my god, oh my god, that was you guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carolyn always told me about you, which was really sweet.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we got talking about these toe rings.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, to tell everybody, I can't remember we talked about it in the last episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I heard this story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So thanks for listening to my part two interview with Guy Clark.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to watch the full interview with Guy Clark head over to our Patreon, the link is in the description below.