Hollywood’s Most Powerful Woman on Overcoming Self-Doubt | Sherry Lansing

 Sherry Lansing, what's her done?
 I heard we were the best know-in-tall.
 And if that's true, it's because I empathized.
 And the quintessential powerhouse in a power suit.
 Cavadu Vayne said she let with empathy, but you knew not to f- with her.
 Ha!
 Her name is Sherry Lansing.
 Do you remember anything that Dr. Hall saw in you that you hadn't yet seen in yourself?
 He just kind of believed in me.
 The head of the studio left.
 They were going to make somebody else ahead of the studio.
 I don't know what I'll do.
 And he said, why can't you be the head of the studio?
 And I said to him, oh, there will never be a woman head of the studio.
 What are you thinking?
 That was the first time I ever thought about it.
 He changed my life.
 And without him, I would never have had the life I had.
 Oh my god, I'm going to cry.
 That's my husband, Billy.
 Academy Award-winning director.
 And the only person that offered me unconditional love.
 That was going to remember me.
 They're going to remember the movies.
 The only thing that lasts forever is the movies.
 The best is not yet to come because I've lost the love of my life,
 but it's still damn great.
 I have been waiting to meet.
 God.
 I'm so excited to see you.
 I really am.
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 who reveal a person that believed in them before the world did.
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 Like this.
 It's Dr. Hoffs, much younger than when I started seeing him,
 but the same face and the same warmth.
 And you can tell just by looking at this picture,
 what a kind and non-judgmental man he is.
 I'm so grateful to him.
 I get emotional looking at this picture because he's no longer alive.
 And he changed my life.
 And without him, I would never have the life I had and had today.
 How did he change your life?
 Well, I grew up with a loving mother and father.
 But I grew up in a home where my mother was very critical.
 Out of kindness and out of wanting me to have a good life.
 And I grew up in an environment where a woman or a girl
 was not expected to work and was expected to get married and have two children.
 And from the time I was a child, all I wanted to do was work.
 And I didn't dream about getting married like the rest of my friends did.
 And so I'm afraid I grew up with a lack of self-esteem.
 And as I started to go through life, I made choices based on shows
 rather than really what I wanted to be.
 And I remember getting married very young, 19 turning 20 years old,
 the end of my sophomore year in college, to a lovely man who should have been my first affair,
 my first love, whatever, because he's a very good person.
 And then getting divorced.
 And then I remember thinking, I'm going to make the same mistake again.
 I'm going to marry somebody who's just going to look different.
 So I thought out, I said to say, so I sought out therapy.
 And I went to a doctor who was not a good psychiatrist in my opinion.
 And in retrospect, I think an even worse psychiatrist than I thought at the time.
 Because he said to me, and I remember this clearly, when I'm done with you, you won't want to work.
 You'll just want to bake pies.
 What?
 I think that's exactly right.
 What?
 I mean, it's shocking when I think about it.
 But I was young and I was like, yeah, that's the truth.
 And many other things like that.
 Many other things that were equally disturbing.
 But when you're vulnerable like I was and you're getting a divorce
 and you really don't have a career, I was teaching, but I wanted to be in the movie business.
 And you really don't have much going for you and you don't have any money and you're trying
 to find your way.
 I looked at him like, well, he must know something I don't know.
 So unfortunately, I stayed there with him listening to the different things for a year and a half.
 And that's because I was 24 years old and so it took every ounce of strength I had
 to finally stop.
 But when I stopped, nothing had really changed in me and I was scared.
 And so I kept trying to work.
 I kept dating and I kept thinking, I got to figure out why I'm not doing well,
 why I'm not falling in love with the right people or person, whatever it is.
 And I went out on a date.
 This is a long way of telling you how I met Dr.
 Oh, I love it.
 A long way.
 And maybe it's too much information, but I don't know how to shorten it.
 I went out on a date.
 Someone fixed me up with a satire twist of all things.
 And I remember thinking, well, this will be interesting because I'm going to hate this
 because I didn't like the first guy that was a psychiatrist.
 But this was just a date.
 And after a couple of dates, he was just lovely.
 And I finally told him the story about this psychiatrist that I had gone to.
 And the look on his face was pretty much like the look on your face.
 He said, I am not allowed to say anything bad about this person.
 But you must go to a psychiatrist to correct this image of what a narcissist means.
 And he called right in my kitchen.
 It's a teeny little kitchen.
 You know, I had no money.
 I was a substitute teacher trying to get acting jobs,
 trying to be in the movie business, not doing particularly well.
 And I went to see somebody who then referred me to Josh.
 And I can remember when I walked into his office,
 almost within the first hour, I knew it was different.
 Because he wasn't judgmental, because he wasn't critical,
 because he wanted to help me to be the best me I could be.
 And so Josh Hoffs is responsible.
 I'm getting emotional talking about it.
 And I'm maybe one years old now.
 And when I saw him, I was like probably 30, you know,
 is responsible for believing in me to be the best me I could be.
 Believing in me enough to let me grow into a person who had self-esteem,
 who wasn't rolled by sheds, who knew what I wanted to do.
 And I don't know how to say it any better.
 I would never be who I am without him.
 I would never be happy.
 I would have never had a career.
 I would have never had the wonderful marriage and friends and just everything.
 So when my teen told me that you wanted to talk about a therapist
 who was a person believing in you, I was a little confused.
 Because I was blessed and lucky enough to grow up in an era
 where that was how most all therapists treated people.
 And so I couldn't understand why it was so profound.
 And then I started listening to the book about you.
 And I started to understand your mother's love for you,
 but her tough love for you.
 And I started to understand how you were very insecure.
 And you talk about having a low self-esteem.
 And so I want to understand even more.
 Because to me, of course, you walk into a room and a therapist is non-judgmental.
 But how does that, it's really profound what you're saying.
 How does that end up that non-judgmental zone end up feeling like a belief in you?
 Well, it is a belief in you.
 It's a belief that you'll make the right decisions that you have inside of you.
 That's one set to, it's repairing yourself.
 That analysis is repairing yourself.
 And that's what it was.
 My mother was, she escaped from Nazi Germany.
 She only wanted the best for me.
 Margot.
 And she was wonderful, but she was very judgmental and very critical.
 And because she was happy as a wife and mother, she wanted that for me.
 And interestingly enough, my mother, I'm sure she believed in me,
 but my mother is my first role model in a good way.
 Because my mother was very contradictory.
 And I think everybody is, but she was especially contradictory.
 So here's a woman who only wanted her daughter to get,
 didn't care if I went to college.
 She didn't care if I got good grades.
 She just wanted me to dress nice, to be pretty, to get married,
 to join the country club.
 They have 2.2 children, you know,
 because that was the world that she grew up in.
 It was a different time, you know.
 It really was a different time.
 But on the other hand, and this is why it's so contradictory
 and why therapy helped me so much.
 My mother was also, as I said, my first role model.
 What does that mean?
 My father died when I was 9 years old.
 Right.
 My mother was 32 years old.
 She had sold dresses at Marshall Foods, so she did not have a career.
 She was raising my sister Judy and me.
 And I remember this so vividly.
 I can't tell you that a few days after my mother died,
 my father had been in real estate in his own buildings.
 And two men came into this office,
 which was in a room pretty much like this.
 It was, in his case, it was in the basement.
 And he had all these big ledgers there of the,
 I mean, he was nicely successful.
 I don't want to make exaggerate,
 but he owned buildings and they had people paying rent.
 And that's how we lived.
 And these two men came in and they looked at my 32-year-old mother.
 We had two children to raise.
 And they said, Margo, don't worry.
 We'll take over the business and we'll take care of you.
 And she looked at that, and I heard this.
 I was hiding in the staircase listening because it was like,
 who are these men that are coming in?
 And she said, no, you won't.
 You will teach me how to run the business.
 And I will take care of my children.
 The woman you just said, who wanted to be at home
 and belong to the country club.
 That's right.
 Said that?
 Said that.
 So she's very much ridiculous.
 It's like about that.
 Yeah.
 So then she did.
 And she was extremely successful in running the business.
 And I would go with her.
 She was my first role model.
 But she didn't want that for you?
 No, because I'll tell you what happened.
 And again, I think it's the time.
 If she was alive today, had young children,
 you have to go back.
 I mean, you have to go back to a woman who escaped from not.
 She Germany had terrible stars from that,
 who was probably wanted a secure life,
 a safe life didn't want to take risks, which I understand.
 But who also had a great joy of life.
 I mean, a great joy of life.
 I mean, I love my mother so much.
 I can't tell you.
 And one of the things that you get through analysis
 is you let go of any anger you had.
 And you realize that the person was doing the best they could.
 And you love them even more.
 As I do about both of my fathers.
 Because what then what happened?
 And I say both of my fathers.
 I adored my father who died when I was nine.
 But then my mother remarried when I was 12.
 And she married Norton Lansing.
 Was a very successful businessman.
 And she quit.
 Quit sold everything.
 Or he took it over.
 He was in furniture manufacturing.
 But she never wanted to work again.
 So that was saying, no, no, we only do this if we have to.
 We don't do it for pleasure.
 Whereas for me, work is pleasure.
 So then the woman who becomes Sherry Lansing.
 Where do you think that drive you had
 to get to where you did
 came from?
 Because it didn't come from your mother.
 I'm not sure genetically.
 Could it have been your dad?
 Well, my dad was my dad just adored me.
 I mean, my dad had a hard condition.
 He'd be alive today.
 If now they put Stenson, they do bypass.
 None of that existed.
 He'd be alive today.
 But unfortunately, he died at 42.
 Right.
 And all I remember is that my father adored me,
 which is I think how I learned to survive.
 You know, the critical mother,
 but a father that adored you.
 But I think
 my mother had great resilience.
 Look at what she did.
 So drive, you can have great ambition,
 which I think you're maybe born with or something.
 But if you don't have resilience,
 you can't make it.
 Because if you say to me,
 what are the key traits that somebody
 who's successful has?
 I don't know anyone who's successful
 who hasn't had equal amount of failures
 to success, maybe more failures.
 But you learn from those failures
 and you pick yourself up and you move forward.
 So my mother's, look at my mother, 32 years old.
 And she raises us,
 my two sisters, and then Mary's.
 And her life was built on resilience.
 But what analysis teaches you?
 Or what Dr. Hoff's teaches me?
 I mean, just looking at his picture,
 I hope I can take this because I'd like to keep it.
 Wait, wait, I have you.
 You have her?
 I have another one I want to.
 Oh wow.
 Oh my God.
 He did not look like, I mean, he's very handsome.
 Very handsome.
 He was very attractive.
 I can't tell you that's what I thought of
 when I was talking to him.
 But therapy of any kind,
 whether it's analysis,
 whether it's going to a psychologist,
 or even talking to your clergyman or rabbi,
 whatever, is allowing you to dig deep into your own feelings
 and not to be ashamed to talk about them.
 Not to be ashamed to say,
 I want a career, you know, I don't think I want children
 to say that when I was growing up.
 I mean, I thought they'd institutionalize me to say.
 But that's what I want to draw down on.
 You're talking about the night.
 This is the 1970s.
 Yeah.
 At a time when therapy was thought to be from mentally ill.
 That's correct.
 So Sherry Lansing, the question I have
 that I've been wanting to ask you is,
 how did you get past that stigma?
 You were being an insecure person,
 which you talk openly about.
 How did you not worry what other people would think
 of you going to therapy?
 Did you just not tell anyone?
 That's a great question.
 I just think I make new, I want it help.
 Did you tell your mom you went to therapy?
 Yes.
 And what did she say?
 It was a halt.
 It was a halt.
 It was a halt.
 It didn't want to talk about it, you know.
 It was a halt.
 And I actually had to work like three or four jobs to pay for it.
 And I asked my father and mother for a loan
 and they wouldn't give it to me.
 They said, come home, you'll be fine.
 You know, it's because you're in Hollywood.
 These crazy people, you know, come home.
 I don't think I kept it a secret from people I was close to.
 I think the people that I was close to
 were introspective and maybe analytical
 and didn't think it was crazy.
 Where did you heard about therapy being beneficial?
 You're in your early 30s.
 From my friends.
 From your friends.
 From a very good friend of mine.
 Okay.
 A man named Ray Wagner wasn't therapy
 and I thought he was wonderful.
 I thought he was so open.
 He liked hugged everybody.
 Right.
 And I didn't get hugs from my mother
 and I hugged everybody.
 Now, you know,
 and I hugged them because I never huged
 got hugs from my mother.
 You know, it was hard for my mother to say, I love you.
 You know, it was hard for her to be physical.
 This is not her fault.
 It's the way she was raised.
 I really, it's so important to me
 that you understand how much I loved her
 and she did the best she could.
 But I'm telling you,
 in every meeting I get up,
 like when we met, I got up and I gave you a hug.
 That's the way I greet people
 because I wanted it so badly.
 And I remember this man and he was in therapy
 and I remember talking to him about it.
 And of course, I had that very bad first experience.
 So it took me another four or five years
 till I met Josh.
 It's really important to me
 that we destigmatize any association
 with going to therapy.
 Because especially when I look at what it's happening
 with kids today,
 you know, and the mental health problems
 that they have,
 I think it should be a course in school.
 What the leaf about yourself
 took the longest to unlearn?
 That I shouldn't be ashamed of my ambition.
 That's good.
 I think that was probably it.
 I didn't like the way I looked.
 I was extremely insecure about that.
 You know, so...
 What can mask what you didn't like
 because people talk about you as being so attractive?
 I have no idea that I had no self confidence
 in my physical looks whatsoever.
 I mean, their times I wanted to cover all the mirrors.
 It doesn't make any difference
 when anybody else thinks it's what you think.
 Unlearning that I probably have never done.
 I mean, I probably...
 I was the tallest kid in the class.
 They called me, you know,
 because of the air up there.
 I was at the time.
 I'd give anything if this was true today
 because it's not too skinny,
 so they call me sticks and bones.
 I'd give anything for that today.
 Jero, and it's very interesting
 because I'm probably 10 pounds overweight,
 but are you still insecure?
 Of course.
 And here's the thing.
 When I finished an analysis,
 I remember saying to Dr. Hough's,
 this is it.
 This is it.
 I still get depressed.
 I still have days when I go,
 oh my god, I can't walk out of the house,
 but I have the tools to overcome it,
 and to know it's my problem,
 and to go forward.
 So anybody who tells you that they're not insecure
 or anybody who tells you that they don't have fear
 or that they don't walk into some rooms terrified,
 I was nervous to do this.
 I'm not now because you're so warm and easy to talk to.
 But I was...
 Look, I remember less than I go,
 oh, should I do this?
 What am I going to say?
 You know, it's normal.
 But you learn
 at A, it's normal.
 You don't have to be ashamed of it.
 You don't have to be ashamed to be vulnerable.
 You don't have to be ashamed to be insecure.
 You don't have to be ashamed to not be the smartest person in the room.
 So here's what I want the audience to understand in this moment.
 I have no ability to relate to you
 based on how you became Sherry Lansing.
 Nobody comes in fully formed.
 You know, you see someone walking with confidence,
 they weren't born like that.
 They learned it.
 I mean, some people are blessed with incredibly loving parents
 and some people overcome parents that aren't present.
 You know, our crack addicts and they become very successful.
 So a lot of it is getting help
 and admitting it.
 The other thing that I want to say that analysis
 or therapy or priest or a rabbi,
 because I'm not saying it has to be that.
 Or if you're lucky enough to have a friend that likes to listen to you,
 you know, two hours a day, which I think most people would get sick of,
 there are no secrets.
 Oh, what is it?
 Well, one of the things that I think we all say is
 I did this really bad thing, you know, I can't tell you what it is.
 I'm not keeping it from you.
 Nothing comes to my mind, but I remember saying, you know,
 I didn't tell the truth here or I did this.
 I mean, nothing serious.
 I don't want to make it, but you learn there are no secrets.
 Do you know?
 I mean, you learn that who you are is okay.
 You know, I was angry at this person.
 I said mean things or okay, fine.
 You were angry.
 You apologized.
 It's over.
 Does that mean we share everything?
 What do you mean there are no secrets?
 No, you have the right.
 No, of course, you don't share it.
 It's your life, and you don't need to over share.
 But I think what I'm trying to say is that there's nothing to be ashamed of.
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 helping to create equal access and opportunity for people all over the world.
 Do you remember or recall anything that Dr. Hawes saw in you
 that you hadn't yet seen in yourself?
 He just kind of believed in me.
 So there was this key moment with Dr. Hawes that I remember clearly.
 And it obviously affected my life.
 We didn't talk a lot about work because mostly we talked and then eventually we did.
 At this point you weren't sharing Lansing.
 You were just an aspiring actress.
 I was a substitute teacher.
 And now by then I was probably reading scripts for $5 an hour.
 For an independent producer.
 I think I had realized that acting wasn't for me.
 I was extremely uncomfortable being an actress.
 I didn't like being anybody other than myself.
 And I was terrible at it.
 But I got very interested in what was going on.
 I'm a movie set because I was fortunate to be cast.
 Why were you so terrible at being an actress?
 I can't be anybody other than myself.
 I'm Ziava Chicago accent.
 They wanted me to talk like this.
 And I just hated being something other than myself.
 And that was the goodness.
 You know, I mean, I have the most respect for actors and actresses
 because they can be sitting here having a conversation.
 And someone says, it's time now and they burst it to tears.
 And I'm like, how do they do that?
 I mean, so I had the greatest respect for them.
 So you were saying that pivotal moment with Dr. Hawes?
 The pivotal moment with Dr. Hawes in terms of the career
 was the head of the studio.
 This was what when I was at Columbia.
 So it was several years into my career and I was doing okay.
 And happy and really thought if I never do any more than this,
 it's wonderful.
 I'm really happy.
 So I didn't have a master plan.
 I never said I want to be the head of the studio
 because actually said I'll never be a woman head of the studio
 in my lifetime.
 I actually said that.
 And I believed it.
 So what happened is that the head of the studio left
 and they were going to make somebody else ahead of the studio.
 And it was between me and another person.
 And I said to Dr. Hawes, you know, Dr. Hawes,
 I'm really nervous about this
 because if they make this ex person in the head,
 I don't want to report to this person.
 It will be difficult, blah, blah, blah.
 But I don't know what I'll do.
 And he said, why can't you do it?
 Why can't you be the head of the studio?
 And I said to him, oh, there will never be a woman head of the studio.
 What are you thinking?
 And he said, I don't know why you can't do it.
 That was the first time I ever thought about it.
 Literally, the first time I ever thought about it.
 And I didn't get the job.
 I didn't get it.
 And I learned how to adjust, you know,
 and I think it was probably.
 How did it feel when he said that to you?
 Well, initially, like he didn't understand the business
 that I could never be it.
 And then it stuck because by then I was starting to believe in myself.
 By then I was starting to develop self-esteem.
 By then I was starting to open my mouth up in meetings.
 And not even be angry.
 I mean, there's famous meeting that was very
 formative in my life.
 And there were like, you know, six men in the room.
 And I was the only woman.
 And they were trying to fix a movie.
 And I gave a suggestion.
 And the producer kind of ignored me.
 Like, yeah, yeah.
 And then they went around the room and like the fourth man there
 said exactly what I said.
 And he went, that's brilliant.
 And I looked at it and I what that is exactly what I said.
 But I didn't say anything.
 Because I think if I said anything, I probably would have been fired.
 But, you know, you're questioning the producer.
 So I learned where to pick my battles.
 I want to be clear about that.
 Which is very important.
 You can't you can't fight all the time, you know.
 And the world is different now.
 This doesn't happen anymore.
 It really doesn't.
 I mean, but picking your battles is still a good lesson.
 Absolutely.
 A hundred percent.
 So I learned to pick my battles.
 And I started to go, oh, I was right.
 So he didn't hear me.
 And so this person is getting the credit.
 But, you know, it's okay.
 Because now the movie will be better.
 Which is really all I really cared about.
 So am I understanding you to say that therapy
 may have helped you to be the great executive that you were?
 A hundred percent.
 And I can tell you so many reasons.
 Number one, where to pick your battles.
 But that's really not the most important.
 To not be intimidated by anybody
 because you understand them.
 Oh, did you dive in on that?
 Well, so someone yells a lot.
 And you think, oh, but really, it's just a style.
 And you start to learn that it's probably based on a lot of insecurity.
 And that they're, you know, maybe yelling because they're insecure
 because they had a tough mother or whatever it is.
 You start to understand people.
 And if you understand anyone, you can't hate them.
 Because you'll understand.
 Say it again, because that's so important.
 If you understand anyone, you can't hate them.
 Because you understand the complexities of what made them.
 That's it.
 And so for me, that's it.
 That was the key to being a good executive.
 So when people would come in to catch a story,
 I felt they're paying when I was saying no.
 Because I actually been on that side of the test, too.
 But I knew how much it meant to them to get the movie done.
 So I hope I was never cool.
 I heard you were the best no-in-town.
 Well, that's very kind.
 And if that's true, it's because I empathized.
 Because I had tried to get movies made.
 I had been a producer before I was an executive.
 Well, both.
 I went, I went for a sister producer.
 Then as an executive, then as a producer again,
 and then to Paramount, as an executive for quite a while.
 I felt they're paid.
 And also, I didn't know if I was right or wrong.
 I mean, I used to always say to people when I passed,
 look, this doesn't work for me.
 But when it becomes a big hit, you can tell everybody
 when an idiot I was from passing on.
 You can tell anybody anything you want.
 It's fine.
 Grendith Paltrow said about you,
 Sherry Lansing changed what power looked like in business.
 Reese Witherspoon said,
 there was only one woman running a major studio
 and I started out and that was Sherry Lansing.
 Jennifer Aniston called you a trailblazer
 and said, you remained one
 of the kindest and most generous people.
 I don't see if you're good.
 She knew.
 Well, that makes me feel very good.
 I didn't know she said that.
 That's all right.
 Kevin O'Vane said,
 she led with empathy, but you knew not to
 fuck with her.
 And then he said she always worked really well
 with really difficult men.
 Because I understood them.
 I mean, that's the gift of therapy.
 That was one of the gifts.
 They didn't intimidate me.
 A lot of these really difficult men
 were what I would call mush faces underneath.
 They were really kind.
 They loved their wives.
 They loved their kids.
 Not all of them, but a lot of them.
 And it was a style.
 In order to get
 consensus, in order to not compromise what you want,
 you have to be able to understand
 the other person's point of view.
 In order to get under it and change it.
 And if you just dismiss it,
 then you get nowhere.
 You have to be able to talk to people
 who disagree with you.
 And you have to be able to,
 when you're doing a movie,
 it is a collaborative process.
 You can't just say, do it my way.
 That doesn't work.
 I find difficult men and difficult women,
 because there's a lot of difficult women too.
 Interesting.
 I mean, they're interesting people.
 And they have strong beliefs.
 And you have to be able
 to understand their belief system
 and not be intimidated or frightened by it.
 I want to talk about one of the men you said
 is someone who
 perhaps was the best to you.
 I'm like, God, I'm going to cry.
 That's why husband, Billy.
 So, oh boy,
 it's funny how you don't believe these emotions
 are going to come up at this time in your life from,
 oh, he looks so cute.
 So my husband,
 so the Academy Award-winning director.
 Yes, but the kind dispersion in the world,
 the most brilliant person, a true genius.
 And the only person in my life
 that offered me unconditional love.
 In what way?
 Which is the greatest gift anyone could give you.
 He loved me no matter what I did.
 And if you had asked,
 who was the person that most
 believed in you after I was successful?
 Because, you know, success,
 it's hard to sustain it.
 Sure.
 And successful people all fear the loss of it.
 They fear, you know,
 you're one movie away from, you know,
 being a failure again, you know, whatever.
 I didn't meet Billy until I was 47.
 So, I had been divorced from the time I was 26 to 47.
 And I had met, you know, many men.
 I was single.
 It was the woman's movement.
 We were, you know, allowed to sleep with people
 and not marry them.
 We were allowed to get up and go home, whatever.
 And I'm not telling you that I didn't love anybody else
 because, of course, I did.
 I had good relationships.
 But he's the only person I ever wanted to marry.
 He was, he's the only person that gave me unconditional love.
 When I was 30 years old,
 I went to the National Theater in Westwood
 to see a movie called The Sorcerer.
 And I went with my best friend at the time,
 Martha LaTral, we were both
 probably working for $5 an hour doing.
 She was an agent, but, you know, we were making no money.
 And I thought The Sorcerer was the greatest film
 I'd ever seen in my life.
 I thought you could feel the sweat on the people.
 And I wanted to make a movie like that.
 And that was my dream.
 And it was directed by William Friedkin.
 So, I'm 30 years old.
 I think William Friedkin must be at least 20 years older than me
 because why should I be working for $5 an hour?
 And I didn't really study him.
 You know, I mean, that's my fault
 that I didn't study directors.
 But I guess I was just trying to survive, you know,
 in a, in my job.
 And didn't really think about it until when I was 47.
 A friend of mine, we gave an Academy Award party.
 And he was sitting next to a girlfriend of mine who was married.
 And she said,
 Oh, Sherry, you know Billy Friedkin and my mouth fell open.
 It was like I had Tourette's.
 And I said, you can't be Billy Friedkin.
 You're much too young and you're much too cute.
 And he said, you can't be Sherry.
 Let's sing you're much too young and you're much too cute.
 And beautiful, I think, was actually the word he used.
 And we got married three months later.
 Now, I hadn't done it in a long time.
 I am.
 That's exactly what you fell in love with him before you knew it.
 Well, I was in love with his talent, for sure.
 Exactly.
 And I didn't marry him for his talent.
 Married him for his soul.
 Of course.
 So Billy, first of all, I just have to brag on him.
 He was a genius.
 He was self-educated.
 He read more books.
 And knew everything about music.
 He was the smartest person.
 And also the funniest person.
 And also the maverick of all mavericks.
 And had a no edit button and would say
 anything that came to his mind.
 And sometimes I go, how did you say that?
 How could you have said that?
 Because I'm like the good girl.
 You know, I'm like, don't say those things.
 Margot's daughter.
 Yeah, Margot's daughter.
 But I loved it.
 I mean, secretly, I loved it.
 And what?
 It's the only man that didn't try and change me.
 That didn't say, I remember saying to him,
 I don't like to cook.
 He said, who asked you to?
 And every other man said, well, at least my dinner was somewhere.
 Who asked you to?
 And I said, and I really want to keep working.
 Great.
 And every time I would be with somebody,
 you know, they were in the business or not in the business.
 And I'd be working late.
 And I would like say, I can't come to dinner
 because I'm working late.
 I can't do this.
 I'm working late.
 They would get angry.
 Billy would say, of course, honey, just say as long as you need to.
 He was not threatened at all.
 He liked smart women.
 He was not threatened by my success.
 I think he thought it was amusing.
 I mean, he didn't care.
 One way or the other, you run a studio, you don't run a studio.
 So what does it mean when someone gives you unconditional love?
 It means that no matter what you do, they will love you.
 And that's like, I've heard of almost.
 It means that you have a soft landing.
 I was never afraid of getting fired
 because he'd be there.
 He wouldn't have cared.
 It means that they're always on your side.
 They may not agree with you,
 but they're always going to be there to hold you.
 They're always going to be there to pick you up.
 My girlfriend, Marathon, I used to have an expression when we were dating.
 And we would always call each other the next day.
 How was that date?
 How was this date?
 And there was an expression we used.
 He won't be there for the chemo, meaning he won't be there.
 What a good start.
 Billy would have been there every day.
 And he was.
 I mean, I fortunately didn't have that experience yet.
 But he, I say yet, and I hope never.
 Billy died in 2000.
 He died two and a half years ago.
 And, and it's strange to say this.
 He had an extraordinary life.
 And he was 88 when he died.
 And he had just done a movie,
 which was great.
 That came in a court martial trial and got great acclaim.
 He did not live to see it.
 But he had a full life.
 And he, there was nothing that he was missing on his bucket list.
 If he were here today, what would he say about why he loved you so much?
 I honestly can't ask for that.
 I don't know.
 You didn't hear him say to people.
 Oh, he would always say my wife.
 Oh, of course.
 But I mean, I don't want, I mean, of course, I wouldn't say it.
 No, but in private conversations,
 the goodest person he knew he thought I had was very attracted to me.
 Yeah, but think about it.
 There must have been a moment in your decades-long marriage.
 And he said it to me every day.
 I love you.
 He had my baby pictures around the house.
 And he used to call me lump head because, you know,
 when you're a kid, they put a little lump on top of your head,
 they put your thing.
 And he would say, look at that lump!
 Look what's the lump did, you know.
 Billy loved everything about me.
 I was very secure.
 He gave me what my parents didn't give me.
 He loved everything about me.
 I mean, I never lived in fear.
 I never thought he was going to cheat on me.
 I mean, I never thought that he was going to leave me.
 He literally, I mean, I did not give him unconditional love.
 I would say, why are you wearing that shirt?
 You should change that shirt.
 It doesn't look good.
 I mean, stupid things, you know.
 But he never said that.
 You know, he always thought, oh honey, you look so beautiful.
 You know, oh, don't touch your face.
 Don't do any cosmetic work.
 You look great.
 Don't worry when you're about 47.
 Would it have worked if you met him at 27?
 No. Why?
 Because I wouldn't have been ready.
 I wouldn't have been ready.
 And he would always say to me, I wish I'd met you earlier.
 I wouldn't have made the mistakes I made.
 I said, no, we would have had an affair.
 And we would have broken up.
 Bingo, bingo.
 And when I married Billy, I was done with therapy.
 And I called Dr. Hoffs to tell him that I was that married.
 And he knew him.
 He knew him.
 He did because Billy knew Dr. Hoffs' wife.
 This is the thing that I found out later.
 And it was just so interesting to me.
 And it's perfectly Dr. Hoffs' wife was a director.
 She directed or producer of a film called Stony Island
 and others.
 And his daughter, Dr. Hoffs daughter,
 is Susanne Hoffs, who's a bangle.
 And I remember coming in one day and I said,
 your daughter's a bangle.
 I never knew that.
 But it just made sense that he would raise a creative,
 free spirited soul like she is.
 And I don't know her well.
 But I know she's all those things.
 And she's married to J. Rochor with Meyer.
 And Billy had met them.
 And when I called Dr. Hoffs and said,
 I just want you to know I got married.
 He said, I know him.
 It's perfect.
 That is what he said.
 I remember that.
 I'm going to show you these movie posters.
 And I want you to tell me the first thing that comes to mind.
 Right?
 So imagine the role you were in at the time it came out.
 And just tell me the first thing that comes to mind.
 Being decent proposal.
 I was a producer who became the head of the studio.
 The first thing that comes to my mind was I loved the one line.
 You know, would you sleep for a man for a million dollars?
 Titanic.
 Oh my god, one of the most romantic movies and James Cameron's
 a genius.
 And there's Leo and Kate and it was a privilege to be part of it.
 I saw that movie probably 30 times.
 And every single time I saw it, I cried at the same place.
 And I remember it was when they're sitting when she shows him
 the little boy and he's normal when Robin Wright shows him.
 And I cried.
 And he even pops him up and said, again, you're crying.
 I said, I don't know.
 It just gets to me.
 I never got bored of seeing it.
 And I was like, I don't know what I was going to do.
 I said, I don't know.
 It just gets to me.
 I never got bored of seeing it.
 I just said this extraordinary film.
 And I remember I blessed Billy had two children
 from previous marriages.
 And I remember when my younger son, who was Jack,
 came home from, was a week on a week off.
 And he came home and he says, hello, I'm going for a skull.
 But he was like, during the invitation.
 And you knew the picture was going to be a hit.
 There's nothing better when you've given your life to a movie.
 Which you do.
 And they're successful.
 And you see there.
 They mean fatal attraction.
 Well, I won't be ignored, Dan, you know.
 I mean, it was something that I loved.
 And I remember Adrian Lyne and Samantha
 and I going to the hamburger hamlet in Westwood
 and sitting in the booth watching the Lions forum
 for about three and a half months, you know.
 And then going in the back of the theater,
 the projection booth, and watching the audience reaction,
 I have a thousand things that come to my mind with that.
 I, you know, really identified with a woman
 who lost her self-esteem because the guy left her.
 And that happens to so many people.
 You know, we're in a relationship.
 And she wasn't in a relationship.
 But he didn't, you know, follow through whatever.
 And the man or the woman leaves
 and the other person can't recover.
 You know, because it's like they took you with them.
 It took everything you are.
 Saving private life.
 A masterpiece.
 I mean, just a masterpiece.
 The two masterpiece.
 I remember seeing it the first time.
 And, you know, you're supposed to give notes
 and I didn't have one note.
 I just said a masterpiece.
 Wow.
 And then I remember taking my son.
 What did Steven Spielberg say to that?
 He wasn't in the screening.
 He, he, Steven Spielberg is a genius.
 One of the most talented filmmakers who's ever lived.
 And he's not here.
 So I can't say that.
 But I think was as nervous about screening it for us
 as if he'd never made a movie because he cares that much.
 So that's like the things that people don't know.
 Take me into a moment.
 You're Sherry Lansing.
 You're the head of the studio.
 It all hinges on whether you say yes or whether you say no.
 How do you make people feel at ease
 in the presence of someone who is seemingly so intimidating?
 Who's the intimidating one?
 You, you have the role.
 Yeah, but I'd never think of myself that way.
 Wait, and let me just say,
 men must have said, didn't anyone ever say to you?
 Oh, wow, very intimidating.
 No, really?
 Maybe they were.
 Here's the thing that you have to understand.
 When you're running a studio,
 you are begging for talent to do movies with you
 that you want to do.
 You have to understand, fatal attraction.
 You brought that.
 It was turned down by probably 20 actresses
 before Glenn Close got the part.
 And then turned down by every studio twice.
 Now that was me as a producer.
 Now let's go to a first-wife's club.
 No one wanted to do it.
 And we had a thing of partnering movies.
 No one wanted to partner it.
 It was, you know, no one thought it was going to do anything.
 So to me, being a studio head is not where the power is.
 The power is with the talent.
 The power is with Steven Spielberg.
 Getting him to say yes.
 The power is with Michael Douglas.
 Getting him to say yes.
 The power is with Timothy Chalamet today.
 Getting him to say yes to your movie.
 They're the ones that have the power.
 The studio executive, in my opinion.
 And I haven't done it for 20 years.
 But in my opinion, is trying desperately
 to get movies that they care about made.
 You greenlight it.
 Fine.
 But that doesn't mean that you have the elements to make it.
 You want a certain director.
 You want a certain cast.
 So to me, the only power is with talent.
 And I say this, it's funny.
 They're running the Sorcerer at the Arrow Theatre tonight.
 And about four people sent it to me.
 And they'd run it.
 The Cinema Tech had run it at the Egyptian Theatre.
 And it was all sold out.
 I might know how happy Billy would have been about that.
 But that's the only thing that lives forever.
 No one's going to remember me.
 I was a studio executive 10 years from now.
 They're going to remember the movies.
 The only thing that lasts forever is the movies.
 The movies, the music, the book.
 No one remembers the executives.
 And I'm not saying that they don't have something to do with it.
 I admire everyone who's doing the job or who did the job.
 And God knows we've read books about the original people,
 the thought books of life.
 But it's the talent.
 Clueless.
 I love Clueless.
 Clueless is just fun.
 And I remember getting the script from Scott Roon.
 And I believe.
 And just loving it.
 And it was it total joy.
 We didn't have any problems making it.
 It was like one of those movies that was just pleasant.
 And you know what, it's interesting.
 Is the Clueless, those movies are among some of my favorites.
 I mean, the movies that were made for young girls as we call them.
 And as to God, you know, I was lucky that I could identify with those movies.
 I mean, I could identify with Clueless saving the last dance mean girls.
 Those are some of my favorite movies I was ever associated with.
 And even though your next character can see his Braveheart,
 which is a total masterpiece, and what a joy it was to work with Mel Gibson,
 he was so gifted, so talented, and so open to criticism.
 I mean, so open.
 I mean, so he was just a joy.
 But people don't put Braveheart in the same category as mean girls.
 But in fact, each of them are perfect for what they're supposed to do.
 For people who don't know, there may be some watching this who don't understand the movie business.
 So they may think, well, you were the head of the studio.
 So you were the one making all the decisions.
 How does it work?
 Does the studio do the movie?
 Then you go find a director to put on it?
 Like the people who don't know, tell us.
 Each one is different.
 We as a studio developed a lot of movies.
 Sometimes the idea would come from us,
 or a producer, or a director would bring in the idea.
 And they do the first draft of the script.
 We give notes in the second, sometimes the tenth draft, whatever it took.
 And so those movies were true collaborations.
 And then I would say to them, okay, I will make this movie with
 this list of actors, this list of actresses, or this director,
 unless there was a director already attached.
 So that would be an in-house development,
 which I think they're not doing as much of any more.
 That's what I hear, but I'm not sure.
 But we did a lot of that.
 And then there are other movies like Braveheart,
 where Mel Gibson comes in with the script.
 And says, I want to do this.
 And it was a partnership with 20th Century Fox.
 And you got a script, and he'll listen to your notes.
 And listen to your ideas.
 But you were given a gift.
 I mean, I can tell you the story of saving Private Ryan,
 which was the greatest gift I ever got.
 It had only happened once in my whole career.
 We had three scripts that dealt with the war.
 And I had said, I like all three of them,
 so let's see which one comes together first.
 And usually, in order to get Mel Gibson,
 or in order to get Steven Spielberg,
 or in order to get Tom Cruise,
 you go to meet with them.
 They have the power.
 You don't.
 You are begging them to say yes.
 Only once in my entire career did this happen.
 I'll never forget it.
 I'm driving home from work,
 and it's seven o'clock on a Friday night.
 And a wonderful agent named Richard Lovish,
 who was the head of CAA,
 calls me out.
 I can't wait to call him and tell him
 that you sat for this podcast.
 I just adore him.
 And so he's one of my favorite people in the whole world.
 And so I get a call.
 Hi, Sharon.
 And I said, hi, he said,
 how would you feel about Tom Hanks
 and Steven Spielberg doing saving prime rire?
 And I followed him and I said, how would I feel?
 I said, I feel great.
 I mean, great.
 He said, okay, I think it'll happen.
 And I thought, Richard doesn't do drugs,
 but he must have done so.
 What is he talking about?
 It's Friday night at seven o'clock.
 I mean, what does he talk about?
 I didn't beg.
 I didn't meet with either of them.
 What is he talking about?
 We had the script.
 And so then what happened is I pulled into the house
 in John Dolch and my partners on the phone
 did you get the call from Richard Lovett?
 And I said, yeah, he said, is he nuts?
 I said, I don't know because no months of begging,
 no months of trying to get them to do it.
 And it was true.
 He had given them the script.
 And they had said yes.
 And so it was a co-production with DreamWorks
 and we did the coin to us who is domestic who is foreign.
 That was the gift.
 That was a gift that only happened once in my entire career.
 I mean, fatal attraction you put down.
 I mean, he took us six years to get it made.
 Force Cup was in development for probably a decade.
 Wow.
 Yes.
 No one wanted to make it to us.
 They now seem so obvious not because of how they did.
 No, but think about it.
 The guy sitting on a bench who's challenged.
 You know, I mean, these are not,
 and Mel Gibson and the Kilt.
 I mean, come on, that's not obvious.
 You know, I mean, it's a masterpiece because of the quality,
 but they're not obvious movies.
 What makes a great actor?
 Somebody who makes you believe, not a one,
 you know, is a great actor.
 And who doesn't look like they're acting?
 Looks like it's natural.
 They are that person.
 You mean, you know, we're all talking about Marty Supreme.
 I believe if I met Timothy Shalamay,
 who I never have, that he's that guy.
 He isn't that guy.
 I mean, I sure he isn't, but you think he is.
 But then I thought he was Bob Dylan the last time I saw him.
 Yeah.
 What makes a great director?
 If someone said to me, you have to direct for one day
 or
 sell shoes for the rest of your life.
 I sell shoes because I couldn't do it.
 I mean, I simply couldn't do it.
 A director has to keep the whole film in their head
 and know everything.
 But I mean everything.
 Know that the script is good.
 Know how to shoot it with the cinematographer.
 Know where the shot should be,
 what the lighting should be.
 The director has to get the best performances out of the actor
 so that they look like they're not acting.
 I mean, the director does everything.
 The director, to me, or everybody,
 it's a collaborative effort.
 So everybody contributes everything,
 but I'm in awe of directors, I just say.
 Was it your dream to be the head of paranormal?
 No, I never dreamt about being the head of a studio.
 I dreamt about producing.
 When I got the first job, which was to be the head of Fox,
 I actually turned it down twice.
 I didn't want to do it.
 I was in negotiations to be a producer at Fox.
 And Alan Hirschfield came to me and said,
 we'd like you to run the studio.
 I said, no, I don't want to do that.
 And that everyone involved in the studio
 kept calling me and calling me.
 And I actually had a clause
 that I could quit in a year and a half if I didn't like it.
 I really didn't want to do it.
 I wanted to produce.
 So I did it for three years,
 and I honestly couldn't wait to leave to produce.
 And then I produced for 12 and a half years
 with my partner, Stanley Jeffy.
 And it is still my favorite job because you're on the set every day,
 because you're involved with every single moment.
 I mean, that's the kind of producer that Stanley and I were.
 I mean, we got there when the crew got there.
 We were on the set every day.
 We saw the dailies.
 We worked on every draft of the script.
 We were involved.
 It was like a child, you know?
 So no, I didn't.
 And then Stanley left to run a golf in Western
 and Paramount was a division.
 And I told him I didn't want to run the studio.
 And so I kept producing.
 And in decent proposal was one of the movies.
 And then I got married.
 And Billy was a director.
 I was a producer, which meant that we were on opposite sides
 of the continent often.
 You know, we, you know, he would go direct to movie.
 And maybe he'd be in New York.
 And I was producing something in California.
 And the greatest gift again that I got with Billy
 as I inherited two of the most wonderful children
 in the entire world.
 Billy's two boys, Jack and Cedric from his previous marriages.
 And I got a chance to be a mother.
 And I loved it.
 Did you want to be a mom?
 Not until I met Billy.
 And those two boys, I could not love more
 than if they came out of my stomach.
 Do you know?
 I mean, they have wonderful mothers,
 but I consider myself a wonderful mother to them as well.
 Speaking of mothers, would you tell the audience what Marco said
 when you got the job at Paramount?
 About a husband?
 No, it was when I got the job at Fox.
 So Fox, excuse me.
 My mother said to me, oh my god, now no one will want to marry you.
 That's what she said.
 But that was the world then.
 So please, she's wonderful.
 No, no, no, 100%.
 Listen, you and I are storytellers.
 Yeah.
 And what Arthur Brooks said in that chair
 was it's not about having complicated relationships.
 It's about having complex relationships.
 And what you had with your mom was a complex relationship.
 And every relationship is kind of complex.
 Yeah, everything.
 So, um, and now I had these two children.
 And I loved being a mother.
 I loved coming home from dinner.
 I loved Billy's.
 How old were they when they came out of New York?
 Nine and 16.
 Oh, so they definitely feel like yours.
 Yeah, oh, they are.
 Yeah, you know, not 42.
 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 49.
 There's my, my children, but they have wonderful mothers as well.
 Yeah.
 And I get along with their mothers.
 Um, so, so I, so Stanley had hired somebody and for whatever
 the reason it didn't work out.
 Um, and he came to me after I had finished shooting
 in decent proposal.
 And he said, I really want you to run the studio.
 And I went, hmm, it could be home for dinner.
 And I said to him, Stanley, this is a good time for me to do this
 because I've never been married with children.
 I wanted to be able to have a consistent life.
 Because if you're a studio head, you work very hard.
 You work seven days a week, but you still are.
 You travel, but you're still based in a city.
 You're not on location for four months.
 And I said, let me talk to Billy.
 Let me think about it.
 Billy's attitude was, I don't care and do it.
 Don't do it.
 Do what makes you happy.
 You know, I don't care one way or the other.
 And, um, I took the job and I said to him, I don't want any dinner meetings.
 I want to be home for dinner.
 I'll work late.
 I'll work seven days a week.
 But I'm not going to, you know, have this like social life in the evening,
 like a lot of executives do.
 And Stanley said, who asked you to do that?
 Just make good movies.
 And, um, you know, 13 years later, you know, I left for this wonderful new chapter
 that I have, um, which is, you know, the philanthropist, whatever.
 Do you think you would have gotten the job?
 Had you always wanted it and dreamed of it and worked for it?
 I don't think that would have been held against me.
 No, I know, but I'm just, I'm asking from a social science perspective.
 Like some people want something so bad and they're so passionate and they work so hard
 and they don't get it.
 And then you see other people like you who are wildly successful,
 but are like, yeah, but I didn't go like begging for it.
 Like just Caleb on me and I said, yes.
 So let me, let me respond to that in two ways.
 Okay.
 It's a great question, actually.
 So I loved producing.
 All I cared about was some movies.
 That's all I cared about.
 I didn't care about anything else.
 And so when I took the job, I thought of myself as an executive producer
 on every movie that we made.
 I read every draft of the script.
 I looked at every day of daily's.
 I only got to go to the set one sent.
 Once I heard them say, oh, here come the suits.
 And I thought I would kill myself.
 But it's like, I only cared about the movies.
 That was all I cared about.
 But I have always believed.
 And I think, I think this is really important.
 That you have to respect the process.
 By that, I mean, please don't say, like sometimes I would interview people
 and they would say, I say, you know, they, they were young kids.
 And you know, you, they want it to be in turns, whatever.
 And I say, well, what do you want to do?
 And they'd say, well, I want to run the studio.
 And I don't, but you're 20 years old.
 What do you want to do next?
 And so I think the biggest mistake that people make is not enjoying the journey.
 I in loved every job I had.
 And when I was reading script for $5 an hour, in an office that is not as big as this table,
 I loved it.
 I loved reading the scripts.
 And I thought, what?
 This is my life.
 I'll be okay, do you know?
 So as long as you enjoy every step along the way,
 then usually the next step comes when you are skipping.
 Oh, that's interesting.
 That's big.
 Skipping all these steps to get to the finish line, you miss life.
 You miss life.
 It's the journey of this life.
 And when you're enjoying the moment and enjoying the position you're in,
 you're saying the next good, great thing usually comes.
 Usually comes.
 I feel that.
 I think it usually comes.
 So, you know,
 no, I didn't ever dream of running a studio.
 I dreamed of producing movies.
 But I was very happy reading scripts.
 And then I was very happy working with the producer,
 who was making the movie and being on the set.
 Do you know, I wasn't happy being an actress.
 How does it feel to be the woman young women point to as the top of the mountain?
 I have no sense of that.
 You know, you don't see yourself as other people see you.
 Sure, but you've heard them say it.
 Yeah, but you hear it, but I don't hear it.
 I don't hear it.
 I don't take it in.
 I'm sorry.
 I wish I did.
 Actually, I'd probably be happy, but I don't take it in.
 I'm worried now, you know, I have this 20 years of,
 of, you know, starting my own foundation.
 Right now, I'm worried about, you know,
 please, dear God, let's find a cure for cancer.
 Please, dear God, let everybody have a good math and science teacher.
 These are areas I'm working with.
 Please, dear God, let's have God in safety.
 I don't take any of it in.
 I just don't hear it.
 I don't know why.
 But some people who have been where you were.
 Would say and have said, I feel a sense of responsibility
 to be whatever they feel the sense of response that you feel a sense of
 responsibility to be a good person, to be kind.
 I meet with anyone that asks me to for advice and help.
 I enjoy people.
 I actually love people.
 I have a very wonderful, you know, life is chapters, okay?
 I mean, it's like, and was this one of things that Hoff said to me also?
 Think of your life as a book.
 When I wanted to leave Paramount, I was done with therapy,
 but I went back to talk to him about it.
 And he said, well, think of your life as a book.
 What do you want your last chapter to be?
 And I want, I don't want to die at my desk.
 I want to try and get back to the world.
 He said, well, then do it.
 That lands with me.
 Well, that's amazing.
 Okay, there are some questions here that I really want to get to
 because the team did a lot of really good research with me and I want to ask them,
 what did therapy give you that success never could?
 Happy to have so many success gives you happiness.
 Therapy makes you feel comfortable in your own skin.
 Therapy makes you feel authentic.
 Therapy allows you to be your authentic self.
 Success is, what is success is an external thing?
 It's people's perception of you.
 Success is a femoral.
 Success is someone else's eyes.
 I feel very good about my life because
 the other thing I didn't do is I didn't keep raising the bar.
 This is another thing that people do who are successful.
 I wish I don't understand.
 I don't have this gene where they run a studio and they are the head of the studio
 and then there's the head of the corporation that owns the studio.
 They want to be the head of the corporation and go, why?
 You got into it to make movies.
 Now you're just getting further away.
 Therapy gave me an ability to be comfortable in my own skin,
 to like myself, to be authentic and to be
 comfortable with who I am and not to be greedy,
 not to be not to be envious, not to want to keep raising the bar.
 Just say, I'm happy.
 But that's so interesting because most anybody who's been where you have been
 was continually looking to climb.
 And I don't.
 When I got to a certain point and I remember, I won't say who it is,
 but I remember, I can remember the restaurant and I remember
 end of John Dolce in my life.
 He popped right in and say, oh, God, you can't believe what you did.
 I remember sitting with another executive who shall be nameless and
 does not have that gene.
 And he said he was going to leave if he didn't get running the studio
 if he didn't get television to report to him.
 I said, why do you want television to report to you?
 Don't you have enough to do making 15 movies a year?
 He said, no, I have to have that.
 And then when he got that, then he wanted to be the corporate guy
 or whatever it is, and it was a man.
 And I thought, why?
 And when Mel Carmesan came into the company,
 they gave me all these other divisions.
 And I wouldn't take up.
 I said to John, I'm not taking this.
 Do you understand this?
 I do not want the theaters reporting to me.
 I just want to make movies.
 I think the fact that you weren't the most ambitious hungry person in the room
 probably worked for you.
 Well, I wouldn't do the job.
 I mean, Mel Carmesan, when he said the meeting, he said,
 so, Sherry, the theaters report to you.
 I said, no, they don't.
 It's only on a North Shore.
 They report to John.
 And John would say, I keep giving it to her.
 She keeps throwing it away.
 I didn't want it.
 How do you know what a story is worth backing?
 Well, I always had a couple of things.
 People that you can root for, that doesn't mean they're good.
 Do you know, like you root for Tony soprano?
 You know, it doesn't mean they're good.
 People that you can root for was something that I looked
 for in the script.
 And the second thing is, it must evoke an emotional response.
 It must make you laugh.
 It must make you cry.
 It must involve you.
 It's not a passive experience.
 Did you ever have a movie that you greenlit
 that it didn't do that for you,
 but it did it for the rest of the people in the room?
 Yes.
 But I don't greenlight it.
 But what?
 But then I didn't greenlight it.
 Can you say what?
 Many.
 I mean, you know,
 I mean, I have to be honest.
 The mistakes as well.
 There's many movies that did not work that I was part of.
 Many.
 And I love them.
 I still love them, I mean.
 You know, it's kind of a benevolent dictatorship.
 If you don't trust your own instincts,
 and if you're going,
 I listen to everything that everybody said.
 And if it could change my mind,
 then of course I would do it.
 If someone would say, but you didn't think of this,
 and I'd go, okay,
 and then maybe I'd read it or maybe add another scene
 or adjust something that would make it.
 But I wanted to go down with my own failures.
 I didn't want to go down
 because I was doing a movie
 because somebody else believed in it.
 And I never believed in it.
 And then it failed.
 And it's my fault.
 I greenlit it.
 I'm the one that greenlit it.
 You know, so it was never the filmmakers fault.
 It's never the other executives.
 The buck stops here.
 You're the one that greenlit it.
 So tell me about a movie that became a big hit
 that initially you were like,
 yeah, I can tell you movies that no one thought
 would work that became hits.
 Okay.
 That you greenlit.
 Yeah.
 But the rest of the group was like,
 nope, and you said I'm doing it.
 Yeah.
 All right.
 Yeah.
 And the first one because it's funny
 because it's not a big movie,
 but there was this little movie
 which I thought was very good by many times.
 It's a little movie.
 But I remember the meeting
 because I would go around
 and I would ask,
 there were not greenlight committees now.
 What there are,
 the only person that greenlit the movie
 was the head of the studio.
 So it was my responsibility.
 But I would go around
 and I would ask the creative people,
 what did you think of the Brady Bunch script?
 What did you think?
 What did you think?
 And they all hated it.
 And then I listened.
 And Danny Thomas was the director.
 And I said, well,
 there's let's say 10 of them.
 I said, so there's 10 knows,
 but there's one person who loved it and it's me.
 So now don't we all love it?
 You know, because, okay.
 So then they could all say,
 Sherry's the only one that wanted to make it.
 And it turned out that one worked.
 But believe me,
 there were plenty that didn't work.
 Was there a moment that you realized
 success no longer defined your worth?
 Oh, right away.
 I mean, right away.
 The first time that I felt
 I was really successful was with fatal attraction
 because it changed my life.
 It was a cultural phenomenon.
 And it had been a very personal thing to me.
 I had been going with a man.
 And one day he,
 one night he told me,
 loved me in the next morning,
 told me he wanted to not see me anymore.
 And so I went, oh my god, you know,
 and I was depressed and we got back together.
 But that's not the point.
 But the point is, and why he did is not the point.
 But it made me kind of obsessed
 with this Glenn Close story.
 When James Deer and I kind of worked
 out the script together,
 and he deserves all the credit.
 But I remember walking in less
 with a friend of mine and saying,
 you know, I have no money.
 And if this movie doesn't work,
 they probably cancel our deal.
 And then I'll probably be homeless
 and I don't know what I'm going to do
 for the rest of my life.
 And I tripped on a curve.
 And he said, well,
 it's not a good stuff.
 He's just a friend of mine.
 And I tripped on this curve.
 And I remember thinking, oh god,
 my whole life's going to be over.
 And then of course, it was just phenomenal success.
 And it meant that something
 that I had really believed in,
 because I passionately believed in this story passionately,
 that no one wanted to make.
 I mean, as I said,
 every studio turned it down twice.
 And no actress wanted to do.
 I mean, hate it.
 I hated it.
 What?
 And it also gave me financial security.
 And that changed everything.
 Because, you know,
 it's not like I was rich,
 but by my values,
 if I lived carefully, I would be okay.
 And, you know, if you're
 worrying about putting a roof over your head
 or putting food on the table,
 that has to affect your choices.
 And I respect that.
 You once said the more power,
 I got the less I craved it.
 I never craved power.
 I never did.
 But we don't have power as executives
 or even as producers,
 we need to get other people to help us do this.
 The people that have the power are the talent.
 And if you're a producer,
 you're part of the talent package.
 But I can't make fatal attraction
 without Adrian Lyne,
 who's truly a genius.
 And it would not be the movie without him.
 And I can't make fatal attraction
 without Michael Douglas
 for the greatest actors that ever lived, in my opinion.
 And Glenn Close,
 one of the greatest actresses,
 and Ann Archer.
 No idea how many people didn't want to do this movie.
 And I'll tell you the story about Glenn Close.
 Please.
 Which you said,
 when did somebody change your mind?
 And I couldn't come up with a movie,
 but I can come up with instances.
 Got it.
 Okay.
 So,
 they had this idea of the Glenn Close character.
 Okay.
 So now,
 for that specter,
 calls, and meanwhile,
 everyone's turning it down.
 And it says,
 I think Glenn would be great for the part.
 Now, Glenn had done the world according to go.
 Great actress,
 but kind of an earth mother,
 not a sexable at the time.
 You know,
 that was the part.
 And I said,
 oh, you know, Fred,
 she's a brilliant actress.
 I think the world is for her,
 but she's completely wrong for the part.
 And so,
 he said,
 okay.
 Next day, he calls.
 He said, you know, I've been thinking you're wrong.
 And he keeps going on and on about Glenn.
 I said, no, please, she's, she's wrong.
 And I just have to tell you,
 you know, we need somebody who's more overtly sensuous,
 more overtly sexy,
 more overtly, whatever.
 And I told Adrian and Stanley,
 they both agreed,
 no one wanted to see Glenn Close.
 And next day, he calls and he said,
 Glenn would like to come in and read.
 Read for the part.
 This woman, oh, I think a benaminated
 for an Academy Award by then.
 But certainly was considered one of the great actresses.
 And I said, oh, please,
 we're not going to humiliate her like this.
 She's wrong for the part.
 Then next couple of days, he calls again.
 She really wants to come in and read.
 And she's not going to feel humiliated
 if she doesn't get the part.
 She said, actress,
 that is what she does.
 And she only asks that she read with Michael Douglas.
 So, what are you going to say?
 So I said, okay.
 So I said to Adrian,
 Glenn wants to come in and read.
 He said, well, what have you gotten me into?
 So I said, I think you should do it alone.
 So she feels comfortable.
 So Adrian truly is extraordinary.
 And Michael says, okay, you know,
 Michael's an actor.
 So it was one of the great lessons of my life
 that go on to Adrian's office.
 10 minutes later, he comes out.
 He says, come in.
 And I walk into a room,
 a small office at this.
 And there is a woman with wild hair.
 A V neck.
 I remember this vividly black dress
 looking like another person.
 And she read the scene.
 Are you discreet?
 If you've seen the movie,
 you know, the scene where she kind of seduces him.
 And we sat in the corner watching it.
 And she was brilliant.
 And she got the part that day.
 And that was my lesson.
 My lesson is
 the actor knows what they can do.
 And if they won't read,
 you don't have to cast them.
 You know, but Glenn,
 I think it's one of the greatest
 performances in the history of film.
 Glenn knew that she was right.
 We didn't because we, she's an actress.
 We had only seen her do one thing.
 That was our problem.
 We were wrong.
 I mean, literally in 10 minutes,
 we all went like that.
 And she was
 the lead.
 Michael loved her, Adrian.
 We all loved her.
 But we would have missed it if I hadn't said yes.
 And quite honestly, it's not me.
 It's for respect to her agent.
 Who, by the way,
 is still in the game.
 90 years old.
 And as sharp and wonderful.
 And that's the other thing that I think we have to
 really work hard on is
 getting rid of Asian.
 Age is a number.
 At 90 years old.
 He's as good as he's ever been.
 And somebody at 40
 doesn't have to be good.
 So we can't.
 We have to redefine.
 That's one of the things I'm working on
 is with teachers, you know,
 is redefining ages and, you know,
 taking teachers,
 taking people who had a career
 and in their third act,
 they become teachers.
 Do you have anybody today who you believe in
 the way your therapist believed in you?
 My kids.
 And Billy, I believed in everything Billy did.
 Everything.
 I just, I just subtly
 was a genius.
 And I believed in everything.
 And we had completely different tastes.
 And, and he would do films and I would go,
 really?
 I mean, you know, really?
 And then I would see them.
 And I was in awe of them.
 And I believe in my kids.
 Yeah, but deep dive on that.
 What do you mean by that?
 Right? So you,
 the therapist was this non-judgment zone.
 I never thought of therapy the way.
 And by the way, I want the audience to understand.
 You went to therapy three days a week for five years.
 We're not just talking about some, you know,
 month-long thing you did.
 And then I want to say,
 whenever I had a trauma in my life
 that I couldn't handle like my mother's death,
 I forget three days a week.
 I went every day for months
 when my mother was sick with ovarian cancer.
 I couldn't handle it.
 I mean, I just kept talking to him.
 And, you know, how
 unresolved issues that I wanted to resolve,
 all sorts of stuff.
 Is she ever give you the feeling she was proud of you?
 Yes.
 Yes, very much so.
 But could she verbalize?
 Yes, she did.
 She did.
 She did.
 She did.
 The hospital led.
 She said to me,
 I think you're, I can see her now.
 She was lying in the hospital bed.
 She was dying.
 And I just didn't want her to die.
 And I kept saying,
 Mom, I'll do anything you want.
 This is long before Billy.
 I wish they had met.
 She would have loved Billy.
 And he kept her alive
 because he was so creative.
 He would talk,
 he always talk to you since I talk about my mother.
 I said, Mom, I'll do anything.
 I'll get married.
 I'll have kids.
 Just please.
 What can I do to get you well?
 And she said, darling,
 I don't think you want to get married.
 I know you shouldn't have kids.
 You're very happy.
 That kind of acceptance at the end.
 So when you talk about with the kids,
 believing in them, the way that what,
 what does that non-judgment?
 I just want them to be happy.
 Okay.
 So how does that show up in their life?
 I don't.
 I don't judge their choices.
 I just, I don't judge, I don't judge what they do for work.
 I don't judge who they go out with.
 I mean, my son's married, you know,
 to a wonderful woman who's been married
 for over 10 years, 12 years, I think now.
 I try, I just want them to be happy.
 Their lives do not define me.
 You know, you see a lot of people,
 you know, who are saying,
 oh, I want you to be a nuclear physicist or whatever,
 I don't feel that way.
 I just want them to be happy, you know.
 Have you had a good life?
 I've had a wonderful life.
 And I can't say the best is yet to come
 because I miss Bill.
 And that's the only thing that's changed.
 I still find tremendous joy in life,
 even though I miss my husband every day.
 But the lucky thing for me,
 and I'm just blessed, I feel his presence every day.
 I feel like he's sitting here with me.
 And when I go home, I feel like he's there
 and I talk to him all the time.
 So the best is not yet to come
 because I've lost the love of my life,
 but it's still damn great.
 And so I still have a joyous life.
 I still have a wonderful family,
 wonderful friends, male and female,
 couple of friends,
 and I find joy in life every single day.
 And I feel like he's still with me,
 so that allows me to do it.
 Not in a woo-woo way.
 I mean, I know he's not there, do you know?
 Would you look for love again?
 No, I don't want anybody else,
 which is, you know, a mating one.
 I lost Billy when I was 79,
 and that's a really good run.
 And, you know,
 people ask me out, you know,
 and then other people being kind,
 say, you know, why don't you go out?
 And I go, I don't want to.
 And again,
 think of your life as a book,
 okay, think of the chapters.
 So, you're young, you know,
 kid, then you go to school,
 then you date,
 then you have romances,
 then you find the love of your life.
 And being a widow,
 it's for me, this is the chapter
 of widowhood, so to speak.
 And there's only one good thing
 about being a widow that I've come up with,
 and that is total freedom.
 I can do anything I want,
 whatever I want.
 And I'm blessed,
 as I said, with a wonderful family,
 with wonderful friends,
 couples, male friends,
 but talented friends.
 And I'm also blessed with economic security,
 which I do not take for granted.
 And so far, you never know,
 good health.
 So, I'm very lucky.
 And I have interesting work.
 I love the work that my foundation does.
 I love it.
 I'm passionate about it.
 Just like I used to be about movies,
 and I still see a lot of movies.
 I don't want to make them, but I see them.
 And so, this chapter is about
 not being alone,
 but just doing what I want to do.
 I don't have to worry about anything else.
 And so, it's a very happy chapter, too.
 I would trade it all.
 It Billy would come back,
 but that's not going to happen.
 And so, when you say,
 date, I can never meet somebody that's like Billy.
 I will never meet somebody
 that's that special.
 So, it would always be less than.
 And that would make me angry.
 And I'm not going to give up my freedom for less than.
 Have you ever thought of yourself as a teacher?
 Well, I was a teacher.
 Yeah, I know the substitute thing,
 but like that was tip-race.
 Are you trying to be a teacher?
 Yeah, it's true.
 By the way, if we haven't already in the episode,
 please pop up a picture of Sherry as...
 I'm real love for.
 An actress.
 It's just what I mean.
 It's not.
 It's like gorgeous.
 Well, they don't exist anymore.
 But my point is,
 in doing our research and reading your story,
 there is something about what you have done
 along the way that has taught people,
 not just through the movies you tell.
 That's one thing.
 And at the end of the day,
 like you said,
 people may not remember what they were the head of,
 whatever they will remember the movies.
 But what I'm going to remember about this conversation
 is how the young girl
 who had really no self-esteem from Chicago
 went on to become Sherry Big Deal Lansing.
 And over the course of her life,
 continued to seek out improvement in herself.
 Thank you.
 And that is the lesson I want this audience to take away.
 Thank you.
 Nobody's going to be Sherry Lansing the studio head.
 The movie great.
 But we all can look at ourselves and say,
 I had a really painful childhood.
 And I was deeply insecure.
 And I can keep growing.
 I can keep bettering.
 And that's the takeaway for me.
 And you keep growing and bettering in your 80s.
 And redefining agent,
 you learn something new every day.
 And you have meaningful connections.
 And the thing that sustains you
 is your interpersonal relationships.
 That's success.
 Yes.
 That's success.
 This has been such a joyful conversation.
 Well, me too.
 I love talking to you.
 It was really fun.
 I mean, and I learned things as well.
 You know, you're just a joy to talk to.
 Thank you for the talk.
 Thank you.
 Thank you for the talk.
 I'm Sherry Lansing and the person who believed to me
 was Dr. Joshua Hoss.
 I thought you might want to know,
 but this podcast is at the heart of a company I found it
 called Do Good Crew.
 I've spent 25 years telling stories.
 It used to be the bad news.
 And now I want to focus on the good news.
 The everyday heroes who are doing extraordinary things.
 You can join us.
 We do live events,
 but we also have a newsletter.
 It's free.
 You can sign up for it by going to www.bedougadcruel.com.
 This show was created by me, David Beggnow.
 Our executive producers are Ellen Rockamora
 and Olivier Delphoss.
 Our associate producer is Griffin Hamilton.
 Our booker is Sully Block.
 Director of photography is Foster Parks.
 Our theme music was created by slipstream.
 Post production and edit done by Longwave Digital.
 This podcast was brought to you by our friends at Canva.
 If you're interested in more stories about people doing good in this world,
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