Juno: the spacecraft that is revolutionizing our understanding of Jupiter

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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly

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podcast.

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This episode features Scott Bolton,

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who is principal investigator

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on NASA's

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Juno mission to Jupiter.

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Launched in 2011,

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the mission has delivered important insights into the

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nature of the gas giant planet.

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And in this conversation

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with Physics World's Margaret Harris,

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Bolton explains how Juno continues to change our

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understanding

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of Jupiter and the gas giants.

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Although the Juno mission was expected to last

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only a few years, the spacecraft is still

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going strong

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despite operating in Jupiter's

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intense

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radiation belts.

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As I'm speaking though, its future is uncertain.

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Despite its great success, the mission is currently

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scheduled to end at the September,

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which is something that Bolton

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also addresses

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in the interview.

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Here's that conversation.

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My guest today is Scott Bolton, a space

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physicist who's an associate vice president the Southwest

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Research Institute in The US and the principal

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investigator of NASA's Juno mission.

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Hello, Scott. Welcome to the podcast.

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Hi. Thanks for having me.

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Juno, the mission you lead, that spacecraft was

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launched in 2011, and it's been orbiting the

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planet Jupiter since 2016.

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What would you say have been its most

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significant discoveries so far? You know, its greatest

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hits if you like.

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Well, that's actually quite a long list because

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we kind of

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revolutionized our idea of how Jupiter and giant

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planets in general work when we got there.

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So one of the the first discoveries that

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we got was that the top of Jupiter

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over both poles

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rest

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giant polar cyclones,

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and there are sets of them that we

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call them circumpolar cyclones because there's a whole

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bunch of them around the poles

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that's surrounding one true polar one, and they

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seem to be stable the whole time. I

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mean, if we've been there, they've sort of

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moved around a little bit, looked like they

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were gonna increase, but they turned out not

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to.

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So that's a very stable configuration. So that

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was kind of a major discovery that, you

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know, the way we look at Jupiter from

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the Earth and every other spacecraft that we've

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had has always looked near the Equator and

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sort of saw the side view.

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Juno went over the poles, and for the

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first time, we saw what the poles look

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like.

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And so from the side, you see these

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stripes, zones and belts, if you wish.

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When we went over the poles, we saw

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that they were full of giant polar cyclones,

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like a whole bunch of great red spots,

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if you will.

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Not quite as big,

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but still sizable, you know, near the size

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of the Earth, thousands of kilometers across. So

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that was kind of our first discovery was

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just going over and looking at that and

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saying, wow.

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What's that? You know, because we had seen

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the pole of Saturn with Cassini, and it

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didn't look anything like that.

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And so we really realized that

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giant planets in general could have these kinds

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of things. The next kind of discovery was

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looking at the interior structure of Jupiter. So

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we set out with the goal of of

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learning

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whether Jupiter had a core

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of heavy elements at that center, a compact

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core,

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or none at all. And, these were things

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that were gonna give us clues as to

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how Jupiter formed.

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Did it start with a core and then

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build on it,

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or did it just collapse like we think

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the sun did?

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And to our surprise,

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it turned out neither was true, so we

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weren't even asking the right questions,

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which is sort of the edge of what

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you hope for in discovery is that, you

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know, you really do uncover brand new ideas.

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And so what Jupyter has

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is a large dilute core with gradients. I

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mean, it's, you know, a significant

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size of Jupyter is the core, and it's

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still fluid. It's, not not all heavy elements,

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but it has gradients of density in it.

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And, you know, we're still trying to figure

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out, I think scientists are, now that we've

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uncovered that, how do you build a planet

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like that? So, you know, we were set

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out to help figure out how Jupiter and

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other giant planets form. And instead,

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we've learned so much that we took a

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step a little bit backwards

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in understanding, and and people are still trying

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to develop the models of how do you

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form a planet like we see

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in Jupiter right now.

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And we've since learned after going back and

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looking at some of the Cassini data at

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Saturn,

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that Saturn also may have this large dilute

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core. And so, you know, this may be

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a a common thing in giant planets.

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Next up would be trying to figure out

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how the ice giants work, Uranus and Neptune.

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Another piece that was really surprising

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was that the deep atmosphere

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of Jupiter was not well mixed.

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So the assumptions had been

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for for many decades that

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Jupiter had layers of hydrogen, helium, and not

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layers, but a mixture of hydrogen and helium

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was what Jupiter is made out of mostly.

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And as you drop down, Jupiter is getting

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warmer, but you're also getting clouds of ammonia,

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clouds of water, clouds of different things that

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are forming.

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And if you drop below

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where it's warmer,

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then that liquid can exist and turns into

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vapor. So if I drop below the water

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cloud, it's warmer, and so all the rain

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should turn into water vapor.

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The assumption was that would then become well

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mixed.

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And right away, we saw that when we

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looked deep into Jupiter, then in fact, there

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was a lot of variability,

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and it was not well mixed. And so

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we had to come up with theories on

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how

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that might actually work, how could you not

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have it well mixed.

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And, of course,

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in hindsight, I think maybe we were naive

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to believe it was well mixed. That was

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a very simple model. The Earth's not well

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mixed, then we employed something similar to what

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we see on the Earth, which is hail.

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So if you see hail sometimes come down,

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it's way too warm, and yet this ice

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ball lands on the ground.

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And you would think, well, that should all

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be melted in vapor already because it's too

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warm, but it doesn't. It comes down out

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of, kind of equilibrium.

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And so we saw hints that maybe something

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like that was happening at Jupiter, and so

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we call them mush balls. But there's this

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idea

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that in fact you have updrafts, and

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ammonia and water are mixing,

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and in fact we've theorized that what we're

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seeing is clouds of ammonia water mixture, that

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there's a liquid

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where the ammonia is almost acting like antifreeze,

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and taking the water ice

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and melting it into a liquid. And we've

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seen lightning coming from this region that is

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too

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high in elevation, too high altitude

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for liquid water to exist. And so we

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think that this means that there's liquid

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ammonia water mixed together,

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and that's where it's coming from. So that

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was a discovery

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that's changed our views of of Jupiter.

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We've also learned about the magnetosphere

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and the aurora and how that works comparing

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it to Earth, and it's very different.

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And the acceleration of particles is happening very,

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very close to Jupiter.

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And we've even started to discover now that

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the shape of Jupiter's magnetosphere

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is flatter

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than was theorized, and we're just starting to

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see that because our orbit has sort of

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evolved to the point where parts of it

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are poking out in out of the magnetosphere

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into the solar wind. And so we're seeing

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how the boundaries are shaped,

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and they're not as as, we've

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theoretically

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expected.

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From a space science point of view, I

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guess one other big surprise and additionally scientific

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surprises about the the sort of physics of

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Jupiter's atmosphere and the chemistry going on there,

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another big surprise is that this mission, this

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hardware, is actually still going.

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I don't know about you, but my impression

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is the spacecraft lifetimes are a little bit

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like dog years, with a few honorable exceptions

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like the the Voyager missions.

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Most of them don't get to celebrate their

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fourteenth birthdays in space like Juno recently has.

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You know, what goes into that?

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Well, it's true.

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And Juno was probably even less likely to

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celebrate that

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because

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where we were going

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was really the harshest region

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in our entire solar system that we know

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of. It was by far the most challenging

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mission

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that we've probably ever launched in the sense

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that it was going into

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a region that we call Jupiter's radiation belts.

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So Earth has radiation belts surrounding it. We

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call them the Vale Island radiation belts.

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Jupiter has ones that are sort

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of extreme.

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Almost everything about Jupiter is extreme. It's like

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a planet on steroids.

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You know, it's 10 times

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larger than Earth, so a a thousand Earths

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fit inside Jupiter.

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Everything is extreme. The gravity field, the atmosphere,

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and the radiation as well. And so

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in order to do what we wanted to

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do, which was go very close and go

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over the poles,

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we had to kind of prepare for this

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high energy high energy particles. That's what the

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radiation is, is high energy

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electrons and protons and ions that are slamming

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into

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spacecraft, and they basically eat electronics. Right? So

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this is one of the big challenges of

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even Earth orbiters is getting satellites that can

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survive

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our own radiation.

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At Jupiter,

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we designed something that's pretty much an armored

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tank.

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We've we've got a a giant radiation vault

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in the center of the spacecraft that's 200

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kilos of walls of titanium,

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and we pack the sensitive electronics

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inside of that

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in order to try to survive Jupiter.

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So we set out, we hope to last

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34

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orbits,

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and that was in order to map Jupiter.

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We were gonna use 32 orbits to map

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it, and then we had two spares in

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case we had problems.

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And so

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that was,

276
00:10:41,659 --> 00:10:42,159
originally

277
00:10:42,940 --> 00:10:45,759
designed to be finished in 02/2018,

278
00:10:46,539 --> 00:10:49,575
and you you accumulate the radiation each orbit.

279
00:10:50,375 --> 00:10:52,634
Juno's orbit is very elliptical

280
00:10:53,014 --> 00:10:55,495
and we come really close to Jupiter, just

281
00:10:55,495 --> 00:10:58,315
screaming over the cloud tops about 5,000 kilometers,

282
00:10:58,535 --> 00:11:01,254
takes about two hours to go from one

283
00:11:01,254 --> 00:11:03,815
pole to the next. So we're just screaming

284
00:11:03,815 --> 00:11:04,315
by

285
00:11:04,730 --> 00:11:07,470
really fast, really close, dipping underneath

286
00:11:08,009 --> 00:11:10,269
these radiation belts. And then,

287
00:11:10,889 --> 00:11:12,409
the rest of the planet, we go out

288
00:11:12,409 --> 00:11:15,289
far, way past Callisto or way past, you

289
00:11:15,289 --> 00:11:16,909
know, Ganymede originally.

290
00:11:17,529 --> 00:11:18,909
And so the whole orbit

291
00:11:19,745 --> 00:11:21,745
at this point takes thirty days, but most

292
00:11:21,745 --> 00:11:23,664
of the time, it took about fifty three

293
00:11:23,664 --> 00:11:24,164
days.

294
00:11:24,544 --> 00:11:26,865
And so two hours of it was close

295
00:11:26,865 --> 00:11:29,585
to Jupiter in this hectic region. And so

296
00:11:29,585 --> 00:11:32,245
we accumulated this radiation, and what was amazing

297
00:11:32,304 --> 00:11:32,804
was

298
00:11:33,289 --> 00:11:35,850
that we were surviving. You know, we designed

299
00:11:35,850 --> 00:11:38,189
it like an armored tank, and that worked.

300
00:11:38,569 --> 00:11:41,449
And, and so we got through all of

301
00:11:41,449 --> 00:11:43,470
our what we call our prime mission,

302
00:11:44,089 --> 00:11:46,815
which was the 34 orbits, And that was

303
00:11:46,815 --> 00:11:48,654
in the 2021.

304
00:11:48,654 --> 00:11:49,714
We finished that.

305
00:11:50,095 --> 00:11:51,394
And then to our surprise,

306
00:11:51,774 --> 00:11:52,834
we're still going.

307
00:11:53,134 --> 00:11:54,434
Everything's still working.

308
00:11:54,894 --> 00:11:57,714
We will complete our seventy fifth orbit

309
00:11:58,254 --> 00:12:00,434
around Jupiter. So more than double,

310
00:12:01,860 --> 00:12:04,919
what we were originally planned. And the radiation

311
00:12:05,379 --> 00:12:08,100
is many times more than double because it

312
00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:11,779
increases over each orbit because our orbit gets

313
00:12:11,779 --> 00:12:14,419
twisted around by Jupiter's gravity field that's so

314
00:12:14,419 --> 00:12:17,274
massive, and it forces us to go through

315
00:12:17,274 --> 00:12:19,134
harsher parts of the radiation

316
00:12:19,835 --> 00:12:20,815
every orbit.

317
00:12:21,514 --> 00:12:24,075
So to last more than 30 four is

318
00:12:24,075 --> 00:12:25,615
amazing, you know, the next

319
00:12:25,915 --> 00:12:28,495
ten or fifteen, we probably doubled our radiation.

320
00:12:28,554 --> 00:12:30,750
At this point, we're way past what we

321
00:12:30,750 --> 00:12:32,850
were originally designed to last.

322
00:12:33,470 --> 00:12:36,750
Now that doesn't happen without some consequences. We've

323
00:12:36,750 --> 00:12:37,250
seen

324
00:12:37,629 --> 00:12:39,170
various systems degrade

325
00:12:39,710 --> 00:12:40,769
due to the radiation,

326
00:12:41,629 --> 00:12:42,129
but

327
00:12:42,444 --> 00:12:44,304
so far, everything's still working.

328
00:12:45,004 --> 00:12:47,004
Now what do you mean by degradation? What

329
00:12:47,004 --> 00:12:47,904
does that degradation

330
00:12:48,284 --> 00:12:49,024
look like?

331
00:12:49,644 --> 00:12:51,884
So the the damage due to these high

332
00:12:51,884 --> 00:12:53,985
energy particles can take multiple

333
00:12:54,764 --> 00:12:57,480
aspects of how they put in damage to

334
00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:58,040
your your,

335
00:12:58,680 --> 00:12:59,180
instrument.

336
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,660
So in in the simplest

337
00:13:02,279 --> 00:13:03,899
thing, it can just be noise

338
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,180
in the camera itself. So in other words,

339
00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:08,860
when we take a picture,

340
00:13:10,154 --> 00:13:12,335
there's a whole bunch of spots that are

341
00:13:12,634 --> 00:13:14,554
not really showing up, and so it looks

342
00:13:14,554 --> 00:13:15,855
like a noisy picture.

343
00:13:16,795 --> 00:13:19,035
Instead of a nice clear picture where every

344
00:13:19,035 --> 00:13:19,535
pixel

345
00:13:19,915 --> 00:13:22,154
is resolved and understood and is part of

346
00:13:22,154 --> 00:13:25,149
your image, you have some pixels that seem

347
00:13:25,149 --> 00:13:28,929
to be blank or missing because of radiation

348
00:13:29,070 --> 00:13:31,410
noise. So that can hit the CCD,

349
00:13:31,789 --> 00:13:33,710
and that could be on any camera. Right?

350
00:13:33,710 --> 00:13:35,745
So we have some shielding, of course.

351
00:13:36,304 --> 00:13:38,804
But the more we can also get other

352
00:13:38,865 --> 00:13:40,164
kinds of damage,

353
00:13:40,945 --> 00:13:41,845
to the electronics.

354
00:13:42,225 --> 00:13:44,544
You could have a voltage regulator or any

355
00:13:44,544 --> 00:13:46,404
kind of chip or a circuit board

356
00:13:46,705 --> 00:13:48,384
go bad, and all of a sudden it

357
00:13:48,384 --> 00:13:51,230
doesn't work because you've got some radiation coming

358
00:13:51,230 --> 00:13:52,129
in depositing

359
00:13:52,669 --> 00:13:53,169
charge

360
00:13:53,789 --> 00:13:56,190
across some path that it it zips right

361
00:13:56,190 --> 00:13:59,330
through your instrument, right, right through the electronics,

362
00:13:59,870 --> 00:14:01,549
and all of a sudden the circuit boards

363
00:14:01,549 --> 00:14:03,549
don't work the way they were originally designed

364
00:14:03,549 --> 00:14:04,125
to do

365
00:14:04,605 --> 00:14:06,465
because they've been disrupted.

366
00:14:07,004 --> 00:14:07,904
I can also

367
00:14:08,284 --> 00:14:10,144
have bit errors where

368
00:14:10,524 --> 00:14:11,184
I have

369
00:14:11,565 --> 00:14:12,065
software

370
00:14:13,085 --> 00:14:15,504
bits that are stored inside memory

371
00:14:16,539 --> 00:14:17,360
that can then

372
00:14:18,139 --> 00:14:20,460
get interfered with. And so I could end

373
00:14:20,460 --> 00:14:22,620
up with a a piece of software that

374
00:14:22,620 --> 00:14:23,519
all of a sudden

375
00:14:23,980 --> 00:14:25,039
doesn't work anymore

376
00:14:26,059 --> 00:14:26,559
because,

377
00:14:27,899 --> 00:14:30,379
the path that, you know, the software might

378
00:14:30,379 --> 00:14:30,879
point

379
00:14:31,184 --> 00:14:33,585
something to to some part of a memory

380
00:14:33,585 --> 00:14:34,965
and the memory is gone.

381
00:14:35,345 --> 00:14:37,105
You know, there's an error in that memory

382
00:14:37,105 --> 00:14:37,605
now.

383
00:14:37,985 --> 00:14:39,504
So you can have a lot of different

384
00:14:39,504 --> 00:14:40,404
kinds of damage.

385
00:14:41,105 --> 00:14:43,904
I could have damage to the solar cells

386
00:14:43,904 --> 00:14:45,929
as well. The radiation glass could get

387
00:14:46,649 --> 00:14:48,649
cloudy, and and all of a sudden, I

388
00:14:48,649 --> 00:14:50,190
can't produce as much electricity.

389
00:14:51,529 --> 00:14:53,690
So there's a wide range of damage that

390
00:14:53,690 --> 00:14:54,669
comes from radiation

391
00:14:55,370 --> 00:14:56,269
on spacecraft.

392
00:14:56,809 --> 00:14:57,789
And over,

393
00:14:58,694 --> 00:15:01,254
I would say, the entire space program since

394
00:15:01,254 --> 00:15:03,754
we first launched the satellite, we've been struggling

395
00:15:03,815 --> 00:15:06,294
trying to decide and figure out how to

396
00:15:06,294 --> 00:15:08,375
deal with that. In fact, the very first

397
00:15:08,375 --> 00:15:11,639
NASA mission was coral explorer one in 1958,

398
00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:12,620
and it discovered

399
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,100
the radiation belts around Earth.

400
00:15:15,639 --> 00:15:16,860
And ever since then,

401
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:18,600
people have been trying to figure out how

402
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:19,820
to avoid those places.

403
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,240
I wanna talk a little bit specifically about

404
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,240
one of the instruments on Juno, which is

405
00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:25,980
this JunoCam.

406
00:15:26,735 --> 00:15:28,434
What's its role in the mission?

407
00:15:29,375 --> 00:15:31,774
So JunoCam was was put on in order

408
00:15:31,774 --> 00:15:34,514
for us to take pictures of Jupiter close-up.

409
00:15:34,574 --> 00:15:36,254
We were really going close, and we were

410
00:15:36,254 --> 00:15:37,875
going to this unique perspective

411
00:15:38,495 --> 00:15:39,875
over the poles. Right?

412
00:15:40,334 --> 00:15:42,639
So we wanted to have a camera so

413
00:15:42,639 --> 00:15:44,000
that we could see what the poles of

414
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,220
Jupiter look like.

415
00:15:45,919 --> 00:15:47,919
So it was put on really in order

416
00:15:47,919 --> 00:15:49,940
to engage the public and provide

417
00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:50,899
humanity.

418
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:53,679
What does Jupiter look like? We put the

419
00:15:53,679 --> 00:15:54,179
data

420
00:15:54,534 --> 00:15:57,254
on the website immediately, and actually the public

421
00:15:57,254 --> 00:15:58,794
makes the pictures for us.

422
00:15:59,654 --> 00:16:02,134
However, while that was maybe the main purpose

423
00:16:02,134 --> 00:16:03,735
and why we put it on, and it

424
00:16:03,735 --> 00:16:05,514
didn't really carry science requirements,

425
00:16:06,215 --> 00:16:08,235
that instrument has has provided

426
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,800
incredible amounts of science discoveries to us, right?

427
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,240
Everything associated with atmospheric dynamics, discovering it, it

428
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,000
was able to see lightning, it was able

429
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,500
to see aurora, we flew by the satellites,

430
00:16:19,559 --> 00:16:21,879
we discovered all kinds of things associated with

431
00:16:21,879 --> 00:16:23,179
Europa and Io

432
00:16:23,534 --> 00:16:24,834
and Ganymede.

433
00:16:25,454 --> 00:16:27,475
It's it's full of incredible

434
00:16:28,334 --> 00:16:28,834
discoveries,

435
00:16:29,534 --> 00:16:30,754
but it was primarily

436
00:16:31,214 --> 00:16:33,154
really just to give us great pictures

437
00:16:33,534 --> 00:16:35,990
of a planet close-up. And of course, it

438
00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:38,629
has a very special kind of framing, a

439
00:16:38,629 --> 00:16:40,009
little bit like your smartphone.

440
00:16:40,549 --> 00:16:42,789
And so it it takes pictures that are

441
00:16:42,789 --> 00:16:44,889
unlike most cameras that are on

442
00:16:45,269 --> 00:16:45,769
spacecraft

443
00:16:46,309 --> 00:16:48,169
in the sense that it's not a telescope.

444
00:16:48,605 --> 00:16:50,125
And so it gets a wide field of

445
00:16:50,125 --> 00:16:52,925
view, so you see these incredibly beautiful pictures

446
00:16:52,925 --> 00:16:55,725
of Jupiter showing, you know, almost Van Gogh

447
00:16:55,725 --> 00:16:59,585
like features in its clouds. And that's because,

448
00:16:59,884 --> 00:17:01,965
they're almost it it's really designed like a

449
00:17:01,965 --> 00:17:02,945
vacation camera.

450
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,240
What effect did that high radiation environment have

451
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,220
on this vacation camera on orbiting Jupiter?

452
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,680
Yeah. A few years ago, we saw some

453
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,920
hints. First, it was having trouble turning on

454
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,525
and getting working again, and we weren't sure

455
00:17:17,525 --> 00:17:19,365
why. When we when it would turn off

456
00:17:19,365 --> 00:17:21,684
and turn back on, it was taking longer

457
00:17:21,684 --> 00:17:24,565
and longer to actually start working again. And

458
00:17:24,565 --> 00:17:26,325
we were getting a little bit nervous that

459
00:17:26,325 --> 00:17:28,644
things were gonna go go bad on it.

460
00:17:28,644 --> 00:17:30,484
It wouldn't one day, it just wouldn't turn

461
00:17:30,484 --> 00:17:30,984
on.

462
00:17:31,319 --> 00:17:33,159
And we think that was associated with the

463
00:17:33,159 --> 00:17:35,659
radiation coming into some of its circuit boards.

464
00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:36,859
Then,

465
00:17:38,039 --> 00:17:39,740
it also was seeing noisy

466
00:17:40,279 --> 00:17:42,200
images. We were getting a lot of noise

467
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:43,960
to the point where they almost couldn't be

468
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:44,460
used.

469
00:17:44,884 --> 00:17:46,884
In, sort of 2023,

470
00:17:46,884 --> 00:17:48,565
right before we were gonna fly by the

471
00:17:48,565 --> 00:17:51,125
moon Io, which is the most volcanic body

472
00:17:51,125 --> 00:17:52,105
in the solar system,

473
00:17:52,804 --> 00:17:53,544
the images

474
00:17:53,845 --> 00:17:55,304
became almost unusable.

475
00:17:56,004 --> 00:17:58,644
And, of course, getting close-up images of Io,

476
00:17:58,644 --> 00:18:01,400
this incredibly beautiful moon with volcanoes all over

477
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,299
it, was really a high priority to us.

478
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,519
And so we were, we were a little

479
00:18:06,519 --> 00:18:08,920
bit panicked at the last second to realize,

480
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,680
oh my god, the camera's not working. What

481
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:11,500
do we do?

482
00:18:12,279 --> 00:18:14,619
So we did sign of a hail Mary.

483
00:18:15,485 --> 00:18:16,144
We had

484
00:18:16,605 --> 00:18:18,684
seen that there was a a theory out

485
00:18:18,684 --> 00:18:21,424
there called annealing, which has been used since

486
00:18:21,644 --> 00:18:24,125
the middle ages. You anneal something, you you

487
00:18:24,125 --> 00:18:27,164
change its property. So, you know, people that

488
00:18:27,164 --> 00:18:27,825
were making

489
00:18:28,170 --> 00:18:30,570
doing metallurgy were would heat up the metal

490
00:18:30,570 --> 00:18:32,330
and pound it, right, and it would change

491
00:18:32,330 --> 00:18:34,750
things. And so you could change the properties

492
00:18:35,130 --> 00:18:37,690
of of how the metals bonded. And there

493
00:18:37,690 --> 00:18:38,670
were some experiments

494
00:18:39,049 --> 00:18:41,544
on spacecraft where they were annealing different things

495
00:18:41,544 --> 00:18:43,544
like solar rays, and people were thinking, but

496
00:18:43,544 --> 00:18:45,724
nobody had really figured out how this works.

497
00:18:46,184 --> 00:18:48,105
And so we thought, well, let's just try

498
00:18:48,105 --> 00:18:49,724
that and see what happens.

499
00:18:50,184 --> 00:18:52,444
And so we started heating up the instrument

500
00:18:52,505 --> 00:18:54,859
as best we could because we had heaters

501
00:18:54,859 --> 00:18:56,380
and different ways that we could try to

502
00:18:56,380 --> 00:18:58,460
heat it up. And we started heating it

503
00:18:58,460 --> 00:19:00,140
up and testing it and heating it up,

504
00:19:00,140 --> 00:19:01,899
and we were getting a little bit of

505
00:19:01,899 --> 00:19:05,019
help, but it really wasn't doing much. And

506
00:19:05,019 --> 00:19:07,419
we were getting closer to the point where

507
00:19:07,419 --> 00:19:10,154
we were gonna fly by IO. And so

508
00:19:10,154 --> 00:19:12,075
we just said, let's just go all out,

509
00:19:12,075 --> 00:19:14,494
and we started heating it up even longer

510
00:19:14,875 --> 00:19:16,335
and higher temperatures.

511
00:19:17,194 --> 00:19:17,674
And,

512
00:19:18,234 --> 00:19:18,734
miraculously,

513
00:19:19,275 --> 00:19:21,355
right before we flew by IO, all of

514
00:19:21,355 --> 00:19:21,934
a sudden,

515
00:19:22,259 --> 00:19:24,279
it started working perfectly again.

516
00:19:24,980 --> 00:19:27,220
And so you can see the images on

517
00:19:27,220 --> 00:19:29,559
our website or in various news articles

518
00:19:29,940 --> 00:19:33,539
that we got incredible pictures. And, and then

519
00:19:33,539 --> 00:19:34,599
ever since then,

520
00:19:35,724 --> 00:19:38,065
we've had a program to keep doing that

521
00:19:38,204 --> 00:19:38,704
annealing

522
00:19:39,164 --> 00:19:41,325
and try to maintain it. And sometimes it

523
00:19:41,325 --> 00:19:43,664
goes a little bit south and starts

524
00:19:44,044 --> 00:19:46,605
giving bad behavior or noisy images, and then

525
00:19:46,605 --> 00:19:48,224
we brought it back to life again.

526
00:19:48,580 --> 00:19:50,100
And right now, it's in one of those

527
00:19:50,100 --> 00:19:52,259
states where the last orbit it it kinda

528
00:19:52,259 --> 00:19:54,660
went south again because we're getting through more

529
00:19:54,660 --> 00:19:56,500
and more radiation. And so we're in the

530
00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:58,420
process of heating it up right now, and

531
00:19:58,420 --> 00:20:00,279
we we're waiting to see

532
00:20:00,580 --> 00:20:02,039
whether it works perfectly.

533
00:20:02,375 --> 00:20:04,055
But even if it doesn't, we'll just keep

534
00:20:04,055 --> 00:20:05,575
heating it up and by maybe the next

535
00:20:05,575 --> 00:20:07,654
orbit it will because it it depends on

536
00:20:07,654 --> 00:20:10,295
how long it heats up for. But we've

537
00:20:10,295 --> 00:20:12,795
also learned how to do this to other

538
00:20:13,015 --> 00:20:14,955
systems throughout the mission

539
00:20:15,690 --> 00:20:18,029
on the spacecraft, engineering subsystems,

540
00:20:18,409 --> 00:20:20,669
UV cameras, other kinds of

541
00:20:21,049 --> 00:20:23,869
star cameras. I mean, just we've probably fixed

542
00:20:24,169 --> 00:20:26,409
quite a few things now. In fact, I

543
00:20:26,409 --> 00:20:29,015
would say that we're we're learning how to

544
00:20:29,015 --> 00:20:30,075
deal with this,

545
00:20:30,615 --> 00:20:32,855
and we're really the first mission that's really

546
00:20:32,855 --> 00:20:35,194
learning this. And what we're learning

547
00:20:35,575 --> 00:20:37,575
is a technique that can be used not

548
00:20:37,575 --> 00:20:40,295
only for deep space missions, but actually to

549
00:20:40,295 --> 00:20:43,400
design and and operate spacecraft right here on

550
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:44,460
Earth even better.

551
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,519
That seems a little bit strange just to

552
00:20:46,519 --> 00:20:48,039
heat something up. I I don't think I

553
00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:49,720
want to try that on my laptop if

554
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,720
it was going bad. Do you know why

555
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:52,380
it worked?

556
00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:55,295
I would not recommend it. It's kind of,

557
00:20:55,615 --> 00:20:58,035
an art that's not really totally understood.

558
00:20:58,494 --> 00:21:00,575
I mean, you're changing the properties, but how

559
00:21:00,575 --> 00:21:03,295
it works on silicon chips or CCDs is

560
00:21:03,295 --> 00:21:06,174
not so clear. We're kind of still figuring

561
00:21:06,174 --> 00:21:08,309
that out. And it's not as simple as

562
00:21:08,309 --> 00:21:10,890
just heating it. That you there's a whole

563
00:21:11,670 --> 00:21:13,670
trick to it, if you will, and a

564
00:21:13,670 --> 00:21:15,930
and a method that we are still exploring.

565
00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:18,950
But how you heat it up, how you

566
00:21:18,950 --> 00:21:19,930
cool it down,

567
00:21:20,474 --> 00:21:23,194
what that cycling is, what temperatures you go

568
00:21:23,194 --> 00:21:23,694
to,

569
00:21:24,555 --> 00:21:26,555
all of these things are built into it.

570
00:21:26,555 --> 00:21:27,855
It's a very complicated

571
00:21:28,555 --> 00:21:30,414
process that is still

572
00:21:31,035 --> 00:21:32,634
sort of on the drawing boards, if you

573
00:21:32,634 --> 00:21:33,134
will.

574
00:21:33,549 --> 00:21:34,830
But I guess you could say you didn't

575
00:21:34,830 --> 00:21:37,230
have anything to lose because it's out there.

576
00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:39,630
It's not working or it wasn't working, and

577
00:21:39,630 --> 00:21:41,950
there's no question of of sending an astronaut

578
00:21:41,950 --> 00:21:43,710
to go fix it or swapping out spare

579
00:21:43,710 --> 00:21:46,045
parts or anything like that, is there? Yeah.

580
00:21:46,045 --> 00:21:47,565
You can't get up there with a wrench.

581
00:21:47,565 --> 00:21:49,484
There's no question about that. But it well,

582
00:21:49,484 --> 00:21:51,164
there was a risk. I mean, it's possible

583
00:21:51,164 --> 00:21:53,505
that there was some other process that could

584
00:21:53,964 --> 00:21:56,144
cure it, and we would

585
00:21:56,525 --> 00:21:58,765
do more damage. So we were being very

586
00:21:58,765 --> 00:22:01,200
careful. In other words, you don't wanna heat

587
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:02,960
it up like you said. You know, you

588
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,579
wouldn't wanna heat up your laptop

589
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,339
beyond what it was designed to operate at.

590
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:09,220
We had tested

591
00:22:09,839 --> 00:22:12,799
every electronic system on Juno in order to

592
00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:15,144
see how hot can it go, how cold

593
00:22:15,144 --> 00:22:17,305
can it go. And so we didn't wanna

594
00:22:17,305 --> 00:22:19,384
go beyond those limits. We didn't even wanna

595
00:22:19,384 --> 00:22:22,045
approach those limits because we might break it.

596
00:22:22,424 --> 00:22:24,904
Right? And so you have to be very

597
00:22:24,904 --> 00:22:25,404
careful

598
00:22:25,785 --> 00:22:28,289
while you're doing this, and you have to

599
00:22:28,529 --> 00:22:30,070
build in what you've learned

600
00:22:30,450 --> 00:22:32,210
on the ground, and then you have some

601
00:22:32,210 --> 00:22:34,549
engineering system that you can test it here.

602
00:22:34,690 --> 00:22:36,450
So it's a very complicated, and you have

603
00:22:36,450 --> 00:22:38,609
to be very careful. If you will, you're

604
00:22:38,609 --> 00:22:39,910
you're kind of tiptoeing

605
00:22:40,210 --> 00:22:43,330
through, you know, you're you're walking very very

606
00:22:43,330 --> 00:22:43,830
lightly,

607
00:22:44,345 --> 00:22:46,045
taking small baby steps.

608
00:22:46,744 --> 00:22:48,445
And then as you get closer,

609
00:22:49,144 --> 00:22:51,785
maybe you take more risk and you take

610
00:22:51,785 --> 00:22:53,785
a couple of big jumps, which is what

611
00:22:53,785 --> 00:22:55,945
we did. There was some risk, and it

612
00:22:55,945 --> 00:22:59,085
was not, something that people did casually.

613
00:22:59,659 --> 00:23:02,140
I was very nervous as we were doing

614
00:23:02,140 --> 00:23:04,859
this whether because I didn't wanna break it

615
00:23:04,859 --> 00:23:05,359
completely,

616
00:23:06,220 --> 00:23:07,519
right, which could happen.

617
00:23:08,779 --> 00:23:10,460
So when it worked for the first time,

618
00:23:10,460 --> 00:23:12,220
was there were there shouts of joy in

619
00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:14,605
the control room? What was it like? Absolutely.

620
00:23:14,744 --> 00:23:16,285
Everybody started everybody

621
00:23:16,664 --> 00:23:18,904
went crazy. We couldn't believe that the image

622
00:23:18,904 --> 00:23:20,825
came down, and it was as good as

623
00:23:20,825 --> 00:23:22,984
when we launched it. We were like, oh

624
00:23:22,984 --> 00:23:24,525
my god. This is amazing.

625
00:23:25,144 --> 00:23:26,825
So we, you know, took all the pictures

626
00:23:26,825 --> 00:23:28,970
and took advantage, and then we've been trying

627
00:23:28,970 --> 00:23:30,910
to learn how to do that

628
00:23:31,210 --> 00:23:33,230
on as many subsystems as possible.

629
00:23:33,690 --> 00:23:34,830
Juno offers

630
00:23:35,450 --> 00:23:37,930
kind of a unique experiment in the sense

631
00:23:37,930 --> 00:23:40,490
that because Jupiter is so much more intense

632
00:23:40,490 --> 00:23:43,125
in radiation than the Earth, we can watch

633
00:23:43,125 --> 00:23:45,065
degradation of various systems

634
00:23:45,605 --> 00:23:48,985
and experiment and learn how to undo that

635
00:23:49,605 --> 00:23:51,765
in in, you know, with Juno in a

636
00:23:51,765 --> 00:23:53,525
way that we could never do even with

637
00:23:53,525 --> 00:23:56,200
satellites on the Earth because the time frames

638
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,039
and the time scales of of what you're

639
00:23:58,039 --> 00:23:59,099
gonna see on Jupiter

640
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,720
are so are accelerated. So you can you're

641
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,599
really learning. It's like the perfect laboratory for

642
00:24:04,599 --> 00:24:06,839
this. And it was not, you know, part

643
00:24:06,839 --> 00:24:07,819
of our mission

644
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:08,940
plan

645
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,434
to go learn this, But, you know,

646
00:24:11,974 --> 00:24:14,154
it's just this incredible benefit

647
00:24:14,694 --> 00:24:16,855
that we kind of stumbled into and can

648
00:24:16,855 --> 00:24:18,634
now take advantage of.

649
00:24:19,575 --> 00:24:21,335
And what are the plans for taking advantage

650
00:24:21,335 --> 00:24:23,414
of it apart from keeping Juno going as

651
00:24:23,414 --> 00:24:24,954
long as is humanly possible?

652
00:24:26,470 --> 00:24:28,390
Well, I mean, we want to apply the

653
00:24:28,390 --> 00:24:30,230
engineering and learn this, and then, of course,

654
00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:32,970
we'll document everything and and keep learning it.

655
00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:34,650
But apply it to,

656
00:24:35,029 --> 00:24:36,090
future designs,

657
00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:39,190
satellites that are in around Earth that are

658
00:24:39,190 --> 00:24:39,690
suffering.

659
00:24:40,365 --> 00:24:41,585
Because all the communication

660
00:24:41,884 --> 00:24:43,505
satellites, the civil satellites,

661
00:24:44,445 --> 00:24:46,525
this is really the greatest challenge we have

662
00:24:46,525 --> 00:24:47,984
of satellites on the Earth.

663
00:24:48,445 --> 00:24:52,204
Every kind, even even defense department satellites. This

664
00:24:52,204 --> 00:24:55,345
is gonna help every aspect of space exploration.

665
00:24:55,900 --> 00:24:57,900
Even our ideas of going to the moon

666
00:24:57,900 --> 00:25:00,700
and Mars can be informed by the what

667
00:25:00,700 --> 00:25:01,920
we're learning with Juno.

668
00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:05,179
What does the future look like for the

669
00:25:05,179 --> 00:25:06,079
Juno mission?

670
00:25:06,380 --> 00:25:07,819
Do you have an end date, or is

671
00:25:07,819 --> 00:25:09,974
it just gonna carry on until it breaks?

672
00:25:10,054 --> 00:25:10,634
What's happening?

673
00:25:11,494 --> 00:25:13,994
Well, the end date is is defined by

674
00:25:14,054 --> 00:25:16,315
budget at the moment. And so

675
00:25:16,775 --> 00:25:19,494
we had, been approved with our current budget

676
00:25:19,494 --> 00:25:21,275
to go through the September.

677
00:25:21,974 --> 00:25:24,450
That was our first extended mission that went

678
00:25:24,450 --> 00:25:26,789
from 2021 to 2025.

679
00:25:27,250 --> 00:25:29,490
And then last year, NASA asked us to

680
00:25:29,490 --> 00:25:32,049
put in another three year extension, so we

681
00:25:32,049 --> 00:25:33,970
proposed and showed that we were gonna go

682
00:25:33,970 --> 00:25:37,134
into another really even more interesting region, more

683
00:25:37,134 --> 00:25:39,694
radiation, but into the rings and little moons

684
00:25:39,694 --> 00:25:40,974
and all of the science that could be

685
00:25:40,974 --> 00:25:43,295
done. And so that was reviewed and came

686
00:25:43,295 --> 00:25:45,154
back with, you know, very high recommendations

687
00:25:45,535 --> 00:25:46,755
to continue the mission.

688
00:25:47,775 --> 00:25:50,095
We are also fortunate that originally when we

689
00:25:50,095 --> 00:25:53,029
were launched for something called planetary protection to

690
00:25:53,029 --> 00:25:55,750
make sure Juno didn't crash into Europa, which

691
00:25:55,750 --> 00:25:57,049
might be habitable,

692
00:25:57,670 --> 00:25:59,990
where you had normally to have to dispose

693
00:25:59,990 --> 00:26:02,009
of the spacecraft, send it into Jupiter

694
00:26:02,309 --> 00:26:03,450
to crash and burn.

695
00:26:04,005 --> 00:26:06,164
But once we passed Europa, we couldn't get

696
00:26:06,164 --> 00:26:06,984
back to it.

697
00:26:07,285 --> 00:26:10,244
We were relieved of that requirement. So whenever

698
00:26:10,244 --> 00:26:13,305
Juno ends, we'll just keep going around Jupiter

699
00:26:13,445 --> 00:26:16,325
until it slowly crashes into Jupiter by itself,

700
00:26:16,325 --> 00:26:17,545
but might take decades.

701
00:26:18,659 --> 00:26:20,579
So the trick here is is we can

702
00:26:20,579 --> 00:26:21,079
keep,

703
00:26:21,940 --> 00:26:25,139
doing science as long as the instruments and

704
00:26:25,139 --> 00:26:27,159
the spacecraft are working. Right?

705
00:26:27,460 --> 00:26:29,159
And and we're able to,

706
00:26:29,619 --> 00:26:31,700
and the other is to stay funded so

707
00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:32,599
that we can

708
00:26:33,105 --> 00:26:35,904
continue paying the engineers and the scientists to

709
00:26:35,904 --> 00:26:37,605
produce the data and send it down.

710
00:26:38,224 --> 00:26:40,224
So at the moment, it's a little iffy

711
00:26:40,224 --> 00:26:41,265
because the,

712
00:26:41,664 --> 00:26:43,204
admin US administration's

713
00:26:43,585 --> 00:26:44,085
budgets

714
00:26:44,384 --> 00:26:47,140
are not settled yet for NASA, and so

715
00:26:47,140 --> 00:26:49,380
nobody knows if there's enough money to keep

716
00:26:49,380 --> 00:26:50,279
Juno going

717
00:26:50,660 --> 00:26:53,500
past September or not. And, of course, there's

718
00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:56,740
a you quickly delve into and jump into

719
00:26:56,740 --> 00:26:57,240
politics

720
00:26:58,500 --> 00:26:59,000
where

721
00:26:59,299 --> 00:26:59,880
the congress

722
00:27:00,525 --> 00:27:02,545
has to agree with the president

723
00:27:03,085 --> 00:27:03,984
on the budget

724
00:27:04,365 --> 00:27:06,225
for lots of things, including,

725
00:27:06,924 --> 00:27:07,424
Juno,

726
00:27:08,205 --> 00:27:10,465
and that process is still playing out.

727
00:27:10,924 --> 00:27:13,325
And so in the meantime, we'll just keep

728
00:27:13,325 --> 00:27:15,670
going until either somebody says shut off or

729
00:27:15,670 --> 00:27:16,570
don't shut off.

730
00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:19,509
Juno's gonna keep orbiting regardless of what we

731
00:27:19,509 --> 00:27:20,009
do.

732
00:27:20,950 --> 00:27:23,509
This budget process always happens this way, but

733
00:27:23,509 --> 00:27:24,730
this year has been particularly,

734
00:27:26,070 --> 00:27:27,509
rough, I guess you could say, because there's

735
00:27:27,509 --> 00:27:29,590
been a lot of turnover at NASA, people

736
00:27:29,590 --> 00:27:30,410
taking buyouts,

737
00:27:30,734 --> 00:27:32,674
leaving ahead of proposed budget cuts.

738
00:27:33,055 --> 00:27:34,734
How has that been affecting your work? You

739
00:27:34,734 --> 00:27:36,414
know, what impact does that have on a

740
00:27:36,414 --> 00:27:38,674
science missions like Juno where you're really

741
00:27:39,134 --> 00:27:40,194
reliant on

742
00:27:40,494 --> 00:27:42,734
continuity of expertise because you've been running for

743
00:27:42,734 --> 00:27:45,055
years and you've accumulated a lot of knowledge

744
00:27:45,055 --> 00:27:46,429
about how to do things.

745
00:27:47,450 --> 00:27:50,569
Yeah. I mean, there's, this it's unsettling because

746
00:27:50,569 --> 00:27:51,230
the uncertainty

747
00:27:52,730 --> 00:27:55,450
is driving some people to maybe take early

748
00:27:55,450 --> 00:27:57,869
retirement or to find another job.

749
00:27:58,365 --> 00:28:00,605
And so you lose expertise as you point

750
00:28:00,605 --> 00:28:01,744
out that is unique.

751
00:28:02,525 --> 00:28:05,005
Judo has been spared this. We've had a

752
00:28:05,005 --> 00:28:06,765
couple of people that have gone on, but

753
00:28:06,765 --> 00:28:09,325
it's nothing too disastrous. But, you know, some

754
00:28:09,325 --> 00:28:10,464
missions are more

755
00:28:10,869 --> 00:28:13,509
directly impacted by such a thing. I think

756
00:28:13,509 --> 00:28:15,690
the biggest impact to us is the uncertainty

757
00:28:15,909 --> 00:28:17,210
of what's going to happen,

758
00:28:17,750 --> 00:28:19,450
you know, and we're marching

759
00:28:19,750 --> 00:28:20,250
toward

760
00:28:20,950 --> 00:28:22,009
the September.

761
00:28:22,390 --> 00:28:24,950
What, of course, October 1, in theory, the

762
00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:26,085
budgets would be

763
00:28:26,644 --> 00:28:27,544
agreed to.

764
00:28:28,565 --> 00:28:30,325
And there's a lot of arguments of why

765
00:28:30,325 --> 00:28:32,565
to keep Juno going. Right? Part of it

766
00:28:32,565 --> 00:28:33,065
is

767
00:28:33,365 --> 00:28:35,924
it has all these, positive effects of learning

768
00:28:35,924 --> 00:28:38,565
about radiation, but there's also great science. And

769
00:28:38,565 --> 00:28:40,680
it's in at this point in its life,

770
00:28:40,759 --> 00:28:43,320
it's very efficient. Right? To replace Juno would

771
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,799
be billions of dollars. To keep running it

772
00:28:45,799 --> 00:28:47,100
is tens of millions.

773
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:49,980
And so it's really,

774
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:52,694
advantageous to keep going.

775
00:28:53,255 --> 00:28:55,434
But as you go toward this process,

776
00:28:56,134 --> 00:28:56,954
if Congress

777
00:28:57,494 --> 00:28:58,714
and the administration

778
00:28:59,255 --> 00:28:59,755
don't

779
00:29:00,214 --> 00:29:00,714
agree,

780
00:29:01,654 --> 00:29:03,994
then maybe you go into a continuing resolution

781
00:29:04,214 --> 00:29:06,054
or or even worse, you could have the

782
00:29:06,054 --> 00:29:07,034
government shutdown.

783
00:29:07,910 --> 00:29:11,829
We've experienced shutdowns before. Normally, NASA missions are

784
00:29:11,829 --> 00:29:14,230
exempt from a government shutdown because it's an

785
00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:16,329
asset that you don't wanna lose,

786
00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:18,950
and so you just keep going. You don't

787
00:29:18,950 --> 00:29:20,865
get more money, but you don't get less.

788
00:29:21,825 --> 00:29:24,545
You hope that the government's budget will will

789
00:29:24,545 --> 00:29:26,384
get figured out and sorted out, which has

790
00:29:26,384 --> 00:29:27,525
always happened eventually

791
00:29:28,384 --> 00:29:29,204
in the past.

792
00:29:29,904 --> 00:29:30,404
So,

793
00:29:31,424 --> 00:29:33,424
you know, the trick for us is is

794
00:29:33,424 --> 00:29:33,924
to

795
00:29:34,279 --> 00:29:36,299
try to maintain as much of the expertise

796
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:37,659
as possible because

797
00:29:38,039 --> 00:29:39,819
if you if people leave,

798
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,700
it's it becomes very hard to

799
00:29:43,159 --> 00:29:44,380
regain that expertise.

800
00:29:44,839 --> 00:29:46,919
But we're also pretty deep, so, you know,

801
00:29:46,919 --> 00:29:49,855
we don't there's there's usually not one person

802
00:29:49,855 --> 00:29:51,474
that's so critical like that

803
00:29:51,934 --> 00:29:54,335
because, you know, people also can get sicker

804
00:29:54,335 --> 00:29:57,214
or pass away. Right? So you constantly have

805
00:29:57,214 --> 00:29:59,295
to struggle with that on a long mission

806
00:29:59,295 --> 00:30:01,234
is there is personnel turnover.

807
00:30:02,734 --> 00:30:04,115
And supposing that

808
00:30:04,619 --> 00:30:06,859
both factors line up, you know, both the

809
00:30:06,859 --> 00:30:09,660
radiation damage isn't too bad and the budget

810
00:30:09,660 --> 00:30:11,359
process gets sorted out,

811
00:30:11,820 --> 00:30:14,059
what is your your hope for whatever is

812
00:30:14,059 --> 00:30:16,299
remaining of June? What next project are you

813
00:30:16,299 --> 00:30:17,359
really excited about?

814
00:30:18,025 --> 00:30:20,744
So, it's really exciting because at this point

815
00:30:20,744 --> 00:30:23,565
we're moving into a region that's virtually unexplored.

816
00:30:24,025 --> 00:30:26,505
So what happens is is Jupiter's is not

817
00:30:26,505 --> 00:30:27,644
perfectly spherical.

818
00:30:28,265 --> 00:30:29,944
It's fatter in the middle than it is

819
00:30:29,944 --> 00:30:31,804
at the poles. We call it oblate.

820
00:30:32,420 --> 00:30:33,799
And that makes our

821
00:30:34,339 --> 00:30:35,480
orbit twist.

822
00:30:35,940 --> 00:30:38,259
So it was an it's an ellipse, right,

823
00:30:38,259 --> 00:30:40,500
and we're the close part to Jupiter that's

824
00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:42,819
really close to 5,000 kilometer over the cloud

825
00:30:42,819 --> 00:30:45,220
tops, started out near the Equator, and that

826
00:30:45,220 --> 00:30:47,220
part is just moving further and further north.

827
00:30:47,220 --> 00:30:49,404
It's almost going over the North Pole.

828
00:30:49,945 --> 00:30:51,865
And so that means that as you come

829
00:30:51,865 --> 00:30:52,365
into

830
00:30:52,904 --> 00:30:56,445
to as Juno is approaches Jupiter, it's moving

831
00:30:56,505 --> 00:30:57,964
in closer and closer

832
00:30:58,505 --> 00:30:59,884
in closer to Jupiter

833
00:31:01,305 --> 00:31:03,839
because the orbit is twisting around, and that's

834
00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:06,099
causing us to go into through more radiation

835
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,799
that we originally were trying to avoid. But

836
00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:11,220
it's also going into a region where Jupiter's

837
00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:11,779
rings

838
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,579
and a collection of inner moons exist

839
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,420
that are virtually unexplored,

840
00:31:16,884 --> 00:31:19,785
and they coexist with the radiation, the rings,

841
00:31:19,845 --> 00:31:21,704
and these inner moons are all together.

842
00:31:22,164 --> 00:31:24,325
Nobody really knows much about these inner moons.

843
00:31:24,325 --> 00:31:26,724
They may be tied to, like, asteroids where

844
00:31:26,724 --> 00:31:28,984
they were captured. They might be formed there.

845
00:31:29,044 --> 00:31:31,044
We don't know how much ice versus rock

846
00:31:31,044 --> 00:31:33,930
they are. So Juno offers the first real

847
00:31:33,930 --> 00:31:35,630
exploration of that system.

848
00:31:36,490 --> 00:31:37,710
In addition to

849
00:31:38,089 --> 00:31:40,170
I mentioned that we're going out now poking

850
00:31:40,170 --> 00:31:42,809
out into the beyond the magnetosphere into what's

851
00:31:42,809 --> 00:31:44,025
called the solar wind.

852
00:31:44,505 --> 00:31:46,664
We will be doing that even more. So

853
00:31:46,664 --> 00:31:48,744
we will get the shape of Jupiter's three

854
00:31:48,744 --> 00:31:49,484
d magnetosphere,

855
00:31:50,265 --> 00:31:52,424
which has never really been understood or and

856
00:31:52,424 --> 00:31:54,424
there's really no other spacecraft that can do

857
00:31:54,424 --> 00:31:56,585
this. We also will go over the poles

858
00:31:56,585 --> 00:31:58,424
closer and closer. We may be able to

859
00:31:58,424 --> 00:32:00,049
study those polar cyclones

860
00:32:00,509 --> 00:32:02,990
and understand how much mass or even how

861
00:32:02,990 --> 00:32:04,049
deep they go.

862
00:32:04,429 --> 00:32:05,569
We will learn about

863
00:32:06,029 --> 00:32:08,690
something called tidal forces, which is,

864
00:32:09,549 --> 00:32:12,349
so there's there's these moons of the of

865
00:32:12,349 --> 00:32:15,134
the giant planets we call ocean worlds, where

866
00:32:15,134 --> 00:32:17,455
there's an ocean underneath the ice crust. Those

867
00:32:17,455 --> 00:32:19,695
are very interesting because maybe they're habitable. So

868
00:32:19,695 --> 00:32:22,275
Europa and Ganymede are two examples of those.

869
00:32:22,654 --> 00:32:24,994
And but nobody really understands exactly

870
00:32:25,615 --> 00:32:28,115
how tidal forces work. We know it squeezes

871
00:32:28,734 --> 00:32:31,700
the planet or the moon and produces heat,

872
00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:33,700
but it's not clear exactly how it works.

873
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:34,680
It also produces

874
00:32:35,059 --> 00:32:37,960
the volcanoes on Io. But by studying,

875
00:32:38,660 --> 00:32:41,539
these little inner moons and how they're orbiting

876
00:32:41,539 --> 00:32:43,960
really close and getting some images of those,

877
00:32:44,234 --> 00:32:46,795
we will learn about those tidal forces for

878
00:32:46,795 --> 00:32:48,714
the first time. And this is another unique

879
00:32:48,714 --> 00:32:50,634
experiment, and that will tell us about how

880
00:32:50,634 --> 00:32:53,855
Jupiter's inner interior works and how it affects

881
00:32:54,315 --> 00:32:55,615
other satellites, which

882
00:32:55,914 --> 00:32:57,454
must be happening throughout

883
00:32:57,809 --> 00:32:59,730
our solar system in the universe in all

884
00:32:59,730 --> 00:33:02,069
of these exoplanetary systems as well.

885
00:33:02,529 --> 00:33:04,929
So there's a lot of incredible science that

886
00:33:04,929 --> 00:33:07,169
can be done, as well as learning about

887
00:33:07,169 --> 00:33:08,149
the polar cyclones,

888
00:33:08,529 --> 00:33:11,509
about the temperature profile. So at this point

889
00:33:11,569 --> 00:33:12,470
now, Jupiter

890
00:33:13,285 --> 00:33:15,065
has moved around the sun, so,

891
00:33:15,605 --> 00:33:18,164
Juno goes behind Jupiter, and we do something

892
00:33:18,164 --> 00:33:19,224
we call occultations,

893
00:33:20,244 --> 00:33:23,464
where we actually normally a solar, you know,

894
00:33:23,525 --> 00:33:25,605
solar powered spacecraft, you wanna stay in the

895
00:33:25,605 --> 00:33:28,490
sunlight. We go into Jupiter's shadow, but we

896
00:33:28,490 --> 00:33:31,130
pass our radio beam through the atmosphere as

897
00:33:31,130 --> 00:33:32,890
we go in and out of shadow, and

898
00:33:32,890 --> 00:33:34,830
we learn about the atmosphere.

899
00:33:35,289 --> 00:33:37,450
And you learn about the temperature profile, the

900
00:33:37,450 --> 00:33:39,230
density of charged particles.

901
00:33:39,690 --> 00:33:41,070
And so what we're learning

902
00:33:41,529 --> 00:33:43,724
is maybe how the equatorial

903
00:33:44,505 --> 00:33:47,464
atmosphere is different than the polar. So how

904
00:33:47,464 --> 00:33:48,845
does the aurora,

905
00:33:49,224 --> 00:33:50,845
which is depositing energy,

906
00:33:51,464 --> 00:33:52,284
get translated

907
00:33:53,065 --> 00:33:55,384
and moved and transported around to the rest

908
00:33:55,384 --> 00:33:57,509
of Jupiter? So there's an immense amount of

909
00:33:57,509 --> 00:33:59,269
science that can be done in this in

910
00:33:59,269 --> 00:34:00,569
this next phase.

911
00:34:01,269 --> 00:34:03,109
And and that's why when we wrote it

912
00:34:03,109 --> 00:34:06,169
up, it was, you know, incredibly highly recommended

913
00:34:06,389 --> 00:34:08,789
to continue because it's brand new. A lot

914
00:34:08,789 --> 00:34:10,735
of extended missions are sort of more of

915
00:34:10,735 --> 00:34:12,675
the same. You follow-up on discoveries.

916
00:34:13,215 --> 00:34:15,695
This is like a completely new mission. And

917
00:34:15,695 --> 00:34:17,695
our first extended mission was like that too

918
00:34:17,695 --> 00:34:19,855
because we the first one, you know, the

919
00:34:19,855 --> 00:34:22,414
primary mission we focused on Jupiter. The first

920
00:34:22,414 --> 00:34:25,539
extended mission, we flew by Ganymede, Europa, and

921
00:34:25,539 --> 00:34:26,039
Io

922
00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:27,000
close-up

923
00:34:27,460 --> 00:34:28,440
for the first time

924
00:34:29,139 --> 00:34:31,460
in, you know, decades with new kinds of

925
00:34:31,460 --> 00:34:33,699
instruments. Right? So we were able to see

926
00:34:33,699 --> 00:34:36,820
how deep the ice is on Europa and

927
00:34:36,820 --> 00:34:38,760
Ganymede and learn about

928
00:34:39,554 --> 00:34:41,494
the volcanoes and things on Io.

929
00:34:41,795 --> 00:34:43,714
That's one of the most surprising things about

930
00:34:43,714 --> 00:34:45,815
Juno is because of this orbit evolution.

931
00:34:46,514 --> 00:34:48,675
As it goes on from one step to

932
00:34:48,675 --> 00:34:50,694
the next, it's a brand new mission.

933
00:34:51,980 --> 00:34:53,420
Best of luck with the next phase of

934
00:34:53,420 --> 00:34:55,099
that mission. Scott Bolton, thank you very much

935
00:34:55,099 --> 00:34:56,539
for being on the podcast. It's been a

936
00:34:56,539 --> 00:34:57,039
pleasure.

937
00:34:57,420 --> 00:34:58,859
It's been a pleasure of mine, and I

938
00:34:58,859 --> 00:35:01,279
really appreciate you helping to share the excitement

939
00:35:01,420 --> 00:35:02,799
of Juno with everybody.

940
00:35:11,195 --> 00:35:13,695
That was Juno's principal investigator,

941
00:35:14,074 --> 00:35:15,054
Scott Bolton,

942
00:35:15,515 --> 00:35:18,735
in conversation with Physics World's Margaret Harris.

943
00:35:19,530 --> 00:35:21,390
Thanks to both of them for a fascinating

944
00:35:21,610 --> 00:35:24,269
discussion about Jupiter and the challenges

945
00:35:24,650 --> 00:35:26,590
of exploring the solar system.

946
00:35:27,130 --> 00:35:29,230
And a special thanks to our producer,

947
00:35:29,690 --> 00:35:30,670
Fred Isles.

948
00:35:31,289 --> 00:35:33,135
We'll be back again next week.

949
00:35:33,454 --> 00:35:34,114
See you

950
00:35:41,215 --> 00:35:41,715
then.