Back to Biz with Katie and Boz: Disney Executive Chairman Bob Iger

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Speaker 1: I'm Katie Kurgan. Welcome to a bonus episode everyone of Back to Biz with Katie and Bow's only it's just me for this one. Don't worry, though, Bose and I are cooking up some ideas and we'll be back to biz together before too long. In the meantime, I'm really happy to share a very interesting conversation I had with Disney's executive chairman, Bob Igor. Bob has spent more than forty years working for companies that are now part of Disney. In two thousand five, he took over as CEO and transformed the beloved brand into a global powerhouse through a series of bold acquisitions. Pixar, Marvel, and Lucas Film all joined the Mouse hask during his tenure. Maybe the most impressive part, though, is that he did it all while gaining a reputation is one of the nicest, most respected guys around. He told the story of his remarkable life and career in his recent memoir The Ride of a Lifetime, and stepped down as CEO in February of this year. What he didn't know at the time, though, was that there was one more unexpected turn he'd have to navigate before his ride was over. Shortly after his resignation, the pandemic hit and the world changed seemingly overnight, particularly for Disney, a company built on in person experiences like theme parks, movies, sports, and cruise lines. Bob Iger is back in the saddle again and is leading Disney through perhaps the most challenging time of it's nearly one year history. We talked about how he's managing this moment, along with all the other twists and turns in his career, and also a lot about what shaped him and what makes a good leader. My husband was so cute this morning. He said Bob's book was the best business book he'd ever read. He said it was so full of humanity, empathy, and humility, and I thought that was such a nice thing to say that I wanted to pass it along. Thank you. As for a nice I was, I must say I've been. I've been really humbled by reactions to it, including Bill Gates, who this summer chose there was one of the five books you have to read this summer, which totally surprised me. It's very nerve wracking to put yourself out there and you know, be so vulnerable and exposed right, Yes, and I was anxious about it. I was very anxious about it. What were you worried about? I was worried about feeling to self or or looking too self important your face on the cover of the book, like who who is the right to do that? You know? Um? And I was worried about it, just not resonating. I tried to tell stories that were interesting, but who knew until people actually read them whether they would be or not. But more than anything, I just was self conscious about it. I didn't want to appear to be bigger, better, more important than I really really was. And blowing your own horn, well, I think you have every right to do that, and that's one of the reasons I think people gravitate to you, Bob, because of your humility. So let's talk a little bit about your career, about the book, some personal stories as well. I know you postponed your retirement four times since two thousand thirteen, but in February of this year you finally stepped down as Disney CEO. Then the pandemic hit. Take me through your decision to take back the reins and take on what certainly will be I would guess some of the biggest challenges of your career. Well, I made a decision, after spending almost fifteen years as CEO to step down, believing that change his real value to companies, that you can stay too long. Uh, And I've I've seen that happen to others, and I didn't want it to happen to me. And so I was intent on going at what I believe was the right time, and also kind of going out feeling that I had accomplished a lot, and not tempting fate either that invariably, you know, all of the good things can you know, quickly be replaced by bad things like who knew by the way? Um? And so in November I articulated that to the board and stuck to it. And the plan was for me to focus just on the creative side of our business, believing that the best thing I could do for my successor would be to leave the company with a very rich pipeline of great movies and television shows and theme park attractions and the like. And it just seemed like a great plan. And then the pandemic kit and we decided really as a board that we would um stay the course that I was not going to step back into the CEO role. And I really have not done that. I know you mentioned taking back the reins. My goal was really too focus on the creative side, as A just mentioned, and also work to make sure that my successor was successful. And I really haven't done anything differently in that regard. Because the pandemic is the biggest crisis that the company has ever faced. Of course he would turn to me for more support than anything else and and advice. Um, and I wouldn't in any way you want to abandon him or the company in an hour of our you know, basically you know our biggest need. So I didn't take back the reins, but I made sure I was there for him in what we're the hardest, most difficult times, brand new CEO. So I've I haven't left, which is which in the intention was that I wouldn't. I've mostly stuck to the plan which is focused on the creative and helped him succeed as he as time has passed and he's gotten more comfortable in this chair during a crisis. Uh, he's relied on me us and less in that regard, and it's it's working just fine. But he knows that and the company knows that I'm there for them, um, you know, should they need it. So, if you're making it clear you're not running the show, but are you spending sort of your days still focused on Disney business. I'm spending my days focused on Disney's creative business and where there are huge decisions to be made the effect the company, you know, in profound ways. Bob Jabok, who's my successor, consults with me on those issues. I am still chairman of the board and so I have a role to play there. But the day to day operation of the company, save for its creative processes, is his responsibility. Gee, Disney was so exposed during this pandemic. Obviously, with so many businesses built on in person experiences. Bob, you're talking about theme parks and sports and movies and cruise lines. So how do you even start managing what a nightmare? This is very difficult, and the first thing we had to do was to admit that things were going to get shut down. In some cases we did so proactively where we made decisions. Disneyland was one of those that we just had to shut it down before any government said you must shut down. In other cases, we were kind of either ordered to or strongly suggested that we should shut down. And you just have to accept those decisions. Uh. And and the reality that not only the country, but the world was so exposed to a disease that it hadn't really seen before. Uh. And then when when you know, one business after the other basically closed its doors, we had to immediately look at the financial underpinning of the company, the health of its employees, UM, how we were going to manage you know, what would have would what would would normally have been kind of normal processes, which has profits and lasses and expenses, etcetera. And and people under circumstances that we could never anticipate. So it was it's almost hard to describe, but it's an all hands on deck approach. All senior management had to be involved. I'm a big believer in times like this too, you know quote Churchill about keeping common carrying on. But I'm also a big believer in candor and not in any way um ignoring reality which is really important, which is looking everybody in a ands and saying this is the toughest circumstances or circumstances the company has ever faced. We are Disney. We are going to get through this. I don't know when. We don't know when, but we will and we're in it together. And there are things that are going to have to be addressed that will be tough, but um, that's the reality of our lives today. Since you're a big believer in candor, a lot of businesses and leaders like you and others have had to really fill a vacuum of national leadership and the and in the course of this crisis. And I'm curious what you think of, uh, the leadership that is coming out of the government right now or lack thereof. How would you assess it? As someone who knows very well how to deal with crisis situations. Well, I've tried not to be too openly critical of either the president or the administration, but I think the facts speak for themselves that it was it's now very clear to us, But I think it should have been clear at the beginning that the impact of this was going to be significant and had to be dealt with swiftly. Uh. And while I realized there's a need to act comes we just discussed, UM, I think the need to um face the truth, uh, and in facing the to contend with it in effective ways is critical and I don't believe, looking back on this now over six month period of time, that is a country we did that. I think it would have been very important early on to call it what it was, which is a wide scale pandemic, and to take action immediately to contend with it. I'm trying, I'm trying not to be too directly critical, because you know, it wasn't It wasn't a situation I had to contend with, although it was a situation the senior management of the Walt Disney Company had to contend. And how do you think that you all did? Did it differently than the US government? I mean, we're what what things did you put into practice that the for example, the president or even the Coronavirus Task Force did not. Well, we shut down right away. Obviously that had a big help. It was a big help. Where we had any business being conducted. We resorted to very very strict, a very very strict high gene regime, which included social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing, uh, you know, cleaning in the extreme as it for instance, left no stone unturned, tried to get access to rapid, wide scale testing. I think the whole country's had issues with that very very difficult to do, so testing never became a true solution, but we basically devoted significant resources to whatever we could have access to that could make the situation better, which resulted in some continued productivity. Most of our production TV and movies was shut down, but we were able to create, you know, enough work from home to continue on. We created with the NBA the bubble in the in Orlando to enable the national basketball season to continue, which was extraordinary. That might be a good example of throwing resources at a problem as opposed to just saying the problem doesn't exist. Um. But and and we've been managed to reopen every one of our parks around the world except for California, under circumstances that are extraordinary and not optimum. But but we've been opened in Shanghai for quite a long time now. Were you worried about Bob reopening of Disney World in Florida in Orlando in July despite the fact that coronavirus cases were spiking in the state at the time. I was worried, um, and I think it was unfortunate we made a decision to open then and to recall thousands and thousands of our employees to do so and had created momentum, and then there was a spike in cases in Florida. So the timing wasn't great from a headline perspective, but the um initiatives that we were the in the steps that we took to reopen, we're so strict in terms of protecting our own people and our guests that in reality, what was going on around us was less of an issue as long as we were adhering to the regime that we created, and we've had no problem. It's incredible what's been done. Of course, we're limiting severely the number of people that are in that are let in, and when you come in, there are restrictions, but we're adhering to them, and the people who are visiting are adhering to them. And it's been working. It's been working in Shanghai, and it's been working in Japan and Tokyo, and we're not open in California yet. We're we're actually surprised and somewhat disappointed that we haven't been able to Probably a good time to go to a theme park. You don't have to wait too long to get a turro, no, but if you get a curo, you can't walk around and eat it because we require a mask wearing. So we've actually, we've actually set up I'll call it snack zones where you can stand apart from others and eat, eat your curo or your popcorn, or your ice cream, or turkey leg your turkey leg, of course, and not put anybody in jeopardy. I don't think I don't think turkey legs don't transmit COVID. Fortunately, Sons of Bust. We'll have more with Disney's executive chairman Bob Igor right after this Welcome back. Here's more of my conversation with Bob Iger. When do you think things are going to get back to normal? I mean, do you kind of look on the horizon and think, or is it? Is it ever going to be what it was? I look every day the horizon. Um, my sense is that the only way we return to some semblance of normalcy is with a vaccine, a widespread meaning widely available, effective vaccine. Until that happens, it doesn't appear that steps to the been taken, which is largely social distancing mask wearing, would be enough to cause people to return to some semblance of normal. And you know every day we read headlines. Today there was one about Johnson and Johnson going to a third sixty people and you know, my my mood lifts immediately when I see something like that. But I think that's what it will take. I believe that forced mask wearing and social distancing and other forms of hygiene will enable more and has enabled more. But unfortunately, we've seen either people not believing in the effectiveness of that or just basically, you know, being defiant about it. Yeah, when you see that, just just I mean, I don't get it. Doesn't it make you scratch your head and think WTF? Yes, it does. Um, it's hard to believe people would be defiant when they're putting their lives and other people's lives and jeopardy, which is exactly what's happening. And I don't think that point has been made enough. And science, I think has proven that mask wearing, for instance, can be a very effective tool to preventing the spread of this disease. I just don't know why people don't accept that. Because they're hearing otherwise from their news outlets, Bob, that's why. And because we have a president who doesn't wear a mask. That's why, well, role positive role models would help for sure. Look where we're a country of individuals and individuals and freedom. I just spent some time in in Croatia and it was interesting because, um, no one seems to have any problem whatsoever adhering to the rules. There are signs everywhere, and I did not see other than people walking around outside social distance where there was not not mask wearing. You were not allowed into any building, including small shops, restaurants, et cetera, without wearing one, and I didn't see anyone defying that. Let's talk about some good news, shall we, and that is that Disney Plus is already kicking ass. Congratulations. I like to do it a podcast. I can say things like kicking ass and forgot we're not on the Today's Show. And you've racked up more than sixty million subscribers since November, so congratulations. Um, how do you think streaming is going to to change the business model of traditional networks? Because you were at the helm of you know, ABC for so long, and I'm curious, especially now that streamers are doing kind of ad models as well, and not just pure streaming. I think technology has thoroughly disrupted the way in which people consume media entertainment. It began really with the Internet and you know what people were accessing, whether it was form video or news headlines or whatever. Um and it has quickly spread to all forms of media in terms of the disruptive nature of it, and the speed of disruption is only increased, it hasn't slowed at all. And what we're seeing is a consumer that is exercising far more authority because that's what technology is enabling them. How they watch things, what they watch, when they watch them or consume them, where they consume them, and how much they pay for them. All of those things are things now that the consumer is having more of an impact on than the distributor and the creator. And what we have to do is what we did is a company, and I think what the industry needs to do is you need to pay heat to that. You need to go and go where the consumer is. You can't force the consumer to go where you are anymore. You have to go to them. And what I mean by that is you have to provide them with the experience that they want. And these days it has to be flexibility, what device to watch on, where to watch um. It has to be flexibility in terms of packages of product that they buy. They don't want to buy things that they never want to consume as for instance. That obviously affects pricing. Timing is a big deal. They want to watch things when they want to watch them. I want to watch it on this, Yeah, this or or or this or whatever. You know, we can name a box. Look, they still watch on a lot of fixed screens on the wall. We call them television sets. He's come TVs and now they're monitors. I think screen people still do that. But but then how they how they get the product to put on those screens is more in their control than some network television schedulers control. But what we decided to do was first of all kind of SCE similar to what we were talking about earlier about recognizing a problem and dealing with it. Is we recognize the disruptive nature of all of this, that business was never going to return to normal. It had changed forever, would continue to and unless we change, we were going to quickly become irrelevant and and unprofitable. I would say, you're a visionary guy. Why didn't you get into it earlier? Bob? Well, I you know, it's that's easier said than done. I don't mean we mean to sound defensive about it, because we got into it early enough in that we are we're doing fine. We as as the case with a lot of legacy businesses, you have a big profitable business to continue to protect and too and to mine profitability and you're measured. There's a lot of responsibility associated with that with shareholders and customers and employees and board of directors to continue to deliver as much profitably as possible, much profits as possible from the businesses you're in. And so it's not an easy thing to pivot to a new business that is not only not going to be as profitable right away, but will be directly disruptive to the business as you were in. And then in addition to that is having the wherewithal to do it, not just financially, but the technological wherewithal and the personnel wherewithal, meaning the right people in the right technology, which we ultimately ended up having to acquire. And it wasn't until we did that. We brought a platform called bam Tech from Major League basement. It wasn't until we did that that we really had the confidence that we had the technology platform to deliver what we wanted. So first came the admission that there was disruption and we had to change saying. Came the decision to disrupt ourselves and go for a third came the acquisition of the technology to basically power it all. And then forth came creating content for that after we articulated the vision to Wall Street. And then last came execution. Yeah, you know, I think I think the balancing act is such an important thing. You know, when I was in traditional news media, I kept on pushing to do more digital content, to really try to convince people. As early as two thousand and six when I went to CBS, there was so much resistance because I think it's very hard for people to wrap them around two different business models, the latter which may actually hurt the former, right, and then there's so many there are so many barriers to a company uh disrupting itself, and the innovator's dilemma is very very real. I faced that it's everything from compensation to just ingrain habits to protective um measures to keep a traditional business going. We do tend typically to um try to preserve the past more than we should and in doing so it often can get in the way of the future. I'm just curious, UM, if you've talked to Jeff free Catzenberg about Quimby, because that's been a tough road to hoe, as they say, uh, starting this new service, the pandemic hits, and people don't seem to necessarily, you know, want to watch these short films on their phones. Have you talked to him and pivot? I have talked to him. His vision was for short form product to be consumed on mobile devices only, UM, a code in the white space of people's lives while they were commuting, in between everything else. And I think because of the pandemic um that obviously that opportunity evaporated and and and consumption patterns changed completely. I think that's one of the issues. I also think he entered a marketplace that was far more competitive, far more difficult than he had envisioned. Will it live to see another day? I don't know. I don't. I haven't spoken to him very spoken with him very recently, But I don't know. Hashtag bummer right, Yes, it's a bummer. I thought he had a lot of promise the bummer for him, but you know, yes, Yeah, Well, Jeffrey will do something else. I'm sure, because he's that kind of person. I wanted to ask you one other streaming question, UM, about a quote you made recently. Uh. What Netflix is doing is making content to support a platform. We're making content to tell great stories. It's very different. Okay, Bob, I have to I have to quible with that quote. Because you think of movies like Roma, you think of series like Unbelievable. I was the executive producer of that so shameless plug. You think of you know, the Irishman, you think of cheer. Uh. That sounds like pretty good storytelling to me, Bob, Yes that. I think Netflix has made a lot of great stories, or bought a lot of great stories. Sure. Um, I know when I said that, I think what I meant was they created the platform and filled it with a volume of of storytelling. Um. That is much larger than than the volume that we have on Disney plus um. And because they really began not as a content company but as a platform, which is very different. We began as a storytelling and a content company and then created the platform. So I did not be pivoted. Pretty well though, don't you think parton they've pivoted. Do you think I'm very impressed with Netflix and what they've accomplished. Absolutely, And I'm I'm a big consumer of it, and I enjoy it um And I think to your point, there's a lot of high quality product on there. But I think what I was, what the observation I was making, is the genesis of their business is different than the genesis of ours. It was not made. I'm very light and I and frankly, I've spent my life trying to avoid either worrying about or criticizing our competition because I just can't do anything about them. Yeah. I mean, you've got that reputation as being such a nice person, and how do you lead a company and maintain your niceness? Bob? I mean, is that is that tough? I mean, I don't know how people do it, because you've got to be direct, you've got to deliver bad news, you've got to do all kinds of things that nice doesn't necessarily go with. Right, I left because when you said bad news. I started my career before I started at ABC forty six years ago, by the way, um as a weatherman in a town and upstate New York called Ithaca and the weather in Ithaca. It's a great town. I don't I don't want to get in trouble for dissing it. Oh God, don't say anything mean about Ithaca. But the weather is rough, can be really rough there and fickle. And someone said to me that being a weatherman in Ithaca was great training because it taught me how to give people bad news. That is true. That's a good line. Look, I've tried to be who I am. Um. I try to treat people fairly. I try to have empathy. I've learned lately that I haven't had enough of it, that there's more. There's more more empathy to be either learned or had. Um. I try to be kind, and I think that's an important quality in a leader. It doesn't mean you're nice all the time. It doesn't mean you're always delivering good news. It doesn't mean you're not either getting confrontational um or having a disruptive effect on someone else's life. But I just try in the process to respect people as who they are. UM. And again, I think kindness is different than niceness. I think kindness is recognizing the human being and everybody and never forgetting that we're never forgetting that that person that you're firing, or that person that you're giving bad news to, or that person that you are, you know, managing under tough circumstances, is still a person. What is niceness? Well, I think if you try to be being nice means avoiding confrontation and sometimes avoiding the truth, and I think it can get in the way of effective leadership. Kindness is different. Stay tuned for more of my conversation with Disney's executive chairman Bob Iger when we continue Welcome back everyone. Here's more of my conversation when I get a little more up post and personal with Bob Iger. You write in your book Right of a Lifetime about your dad and how he suffered from manic depression and was tormented by self disappointment throughout his life, which I don't know if you're like me, and you know, it's it's hard to it's hard to say something like that about your father. But but it really did shape you in so many ways, didn't it, Bob, Yes, very much so. His manic depression was profound and something I was aware of. It wasn't known as manic depression, um, but something I was aware of at a very young age. I'm talking about probably before I even turned ten. Um. I was the oldest son. I have a younger sister, a close knit family. But it was hard. In a small house. It's hard to avoid mood swings, and um and I saw a lot of them. And I also saw the impact that those mood swings had not just on the family, but on his life and his own self esteem and his ability to hold a job and how he dealt with friends and others. And it was hard. Um, I think it was look in the end, I put it preferred not to have had that in my life, but I think it helped form me and definitely toughened me up some ways, forced me to be both more resilient and sometimes more independent by the way he was a loving father and giving father. He truly appreciated who I was and what I became, and he exhorted me to do better all the time, and opened my eyes to all sorts of things in life, like music and literature, UH and politics and just generally being worldly. Um and so I have a lot I wrote about him, honestly because I felt that I hadn't There was enough about him that I still really appreciated um, and so it was not in any way meant to sound critical of him or did demean him in any way. He passed in two thousand eleven, so he's been gone for a while. But he was able to see your your incredible success. And did he did he get a kick out of it? He did? That was that was a bone of contention with the two of us, because he got too much of a kick out of it. And I told him that, what do you mean I used to have a bet with my sister that we went someplace. This is late in our lives. How long would it take him to let the whoever we were, a waiter or someone know who I was? Uh? He lived my life I cariously in that regard. And I think he he derived from his own self esteem from his son's success. And that made me feel that embarrassed me. Yeah, And I told him that he knew that I would get mad at him. I wish you were still around so I could get mad at him about that. I got would get mad at him. Why do you have to tell the waiter that I'm the CEO of the Walt Disney Company. It has nothing to do with the PASTA dish that we were just ordering. When my father would go get his prescription from the drug store and the pharmacists would say are you Are you Katie Kerrik's father, he would say, no, she's my daughter. That's a great line. I wanted to ask you about you mentioned being a weather man. You did want to become Walter Cronkite one day. I'm really sorry I beat you to the punch you became Walter Cronkite, not exactly, but why did you give up on a career in television news. Well, I studied television or communications and media in college. I wanted uh. And Walter Cronkite, as you know, and I think some of our our older listeners, yes, um, you know, was an American icon, one most trusted man in America. I think he was considered at one point those were the days CBS Evening News. Uh and and as you know, very very special in terms of his role in our lives growing up in our country. Uh. And it was not only something romantic about that that, but I I just fell in love with television news, I think really through watching CBS News and that array of great contributors, from Charles Coral to Roger Mud. You know, we could we could go on and on. That group of people that was just so special. Um and I started out, as I mentioned earlier on camera, uh as a weatherman and a feature news reporter. And you know, when you do those things in small markets, you move up and up and up, although your trajectory is a little different than others, I guess in some ways. But and you take a bigger market, and a bigger market ultimately you hope to get to the big network. Well, I started at the right full age of twenty three, and I had some other opportunities to go to bigger markets, but I I love, I didn't have the confidence in myself to convince myself that I would end up becoming Walter Cronkite. Uh. I just didn't think I was good enough. And I don't know what there was feedback that I was getting or was just being more self aware, but I lacked the confidence and the presence and you know that mojo. I guess that it takes UH to do that. And so I pivoted and got a job essentially as a production assistant at ABC. In four I ended up working on the Harry Reasoner Evening News were you there when Barbara was there before Barbara and then Barbara came, but before Barbara, that was a lot of fun for her. Yes, yes, I remember that. Well. Actually, a funny story about that was I was asked when after Barbara Walters started, I was asked to take something into her dressing room and I knocked on the door and there was no answer. I knocked again. There was no answer. So I walked in and Barbara was there fully dressed. I would sit by the way, but I was going to say no. And I was really taken aback as this young production person luring some of your miss Walters. And I started to back my way out. She said, no, no, no, stop. Tell me what your name is and what do you do? And I told her my name and what I did. She's so nice to meet you. From then on she called me Jim. It wasn't until I became president of the network. I think that she discovered that Jim's name was. I've been calling you the wrong name all these years. Well, you do have a funny story in your book about being sent out to buy listering for Frank Sinatra. That must have been incredible. I mean, I'm such a Sinatra fan. I never met him, but wow, that must have been so exciting. He did a live concert, performed a live concert at Masson Square Garden called the Main Event in October of seventy four, produced by UM. Jerry Weintrout became a famous producer and Ruin Arland, who was then head of ABC Sports and I worked on that. ABC did it in prime time and among the high end jobs that I had to perform was to bring go out to a drug store in Midtown Manhattan and by listerine and delivered to his dressing room. I knocked in some big security guard. I answered, yeah, kids, you know it's one of those what do you Mr Sinatra's listering? And he was about to take it. I heard Sinatra's voice in the background and he said, hold on one second, and uh, what's your name? And I said, Bob, where are you from? I think? I said, I can't remember. I said Brooklyn or I was born in Brooklyn. Um, I grew up in a town called Ocean Side. And he handed me a CRISP one hundred dollar bill. And it's interesting because I got as as part of the working on the show. He gave everybody on this is a sign of the times. He gave everybody on the crew a gold cigarette lighter that said love Frank on it. I still have I still have the cigarette lighter. That's I hope you still have that cigarette lighter. I hope you still have that one. Right away. You should have gotten him to sign it. Who knew you know? Well, I think you knew at the time. It was Frank sin Rocher. Come on, Bob, wasn't like I remember. I remember being right at the edge of the stage when he was performing, and who was sitting there but but Walter Cronkite and the audience. That's so funny. John Lindsay who was the mayor of New York, and Robert very handsome mayor of New York. Hovert Redford who who was also pretty handsome. One thing in your book that's very clear is you would not be where you are today, Bob without without your mentors. Can you tell me the role they played in your life? And I'd love to hear who you have in turn paid it forward to who you have mentored And how I was really lucky, Katie, I worked for some signs of our business um and people who are really famous for their accomplish schmans and the ability to kind of work at their feet, so to speak, was basically what I was doing. Um it was extraordinary. So the first would be run Arlante, who was a very very well known television executive who kind of the father of ABC Sports and a real innovator and came out of ABC News too, and a huge risk taker and a great storyteller and and as I said, an innovator and a perfectionist and add and a showman too. And I worked for Room for ten years and he worked for me for ten years, which is very interesting that we sort of switched roles in some way. And he was good by the way about working for me, although there were moments when I had to remind things they changed a little. But more than anything from Rooin, the ability to take big risks, the ability to um, I think big, be theatrical, and lastly be a prof Actionists don't ever accept mediocrity. If you've got any resources left to make something that is good, great, do it. And it's interesting how often people sometimes settle or less than great, either because they perceived that they're out of time, or they're exhausted, or money's an issue whatever, and not that money shouldn't be an issue. But he taught me that, um, there's always room for improvement, to to make something that you're making better, and I love that. And then I worked for two gentlemen who ran Capital Cities ABC named Tom Murphy and Dan Burke. And Tom still alive. I still check in with him every once in a while. Consummate businessman. But what I mean by that is with great integrity. So not only they teach me business, they taught me how to conduct business the right way and never compromising from an integrity perspective or judgment perspective, which was very valuable during a formative period of my life. I started working for them when I was thirty four, and I worked for them un till Disney bought us in. And then lastly I worked for Michael Eisner for ten years. And Michael was incredible in terms of the the ambidextrous nature of his creativity. He he had creative instincts about theme park attractions and parades and hotels to television series, two books, to motion pictures. And he taught me too, one of the language of those businesses. I only knew the language of television He taught me to have a set designer's eye and assessing creativity when it came to the theme parks, and he too was quite a perfectionist, so I was I was lucky, um and what And I'm grateful to them to this day. But it also taught me the value of mentorship because and and I've learned even more about its value in the last six months, because clearly mentorship is both an inexpensive and a very very efficient way of enabling people that have more opportunity. And when we talk about diversity and inclusion and we're talking about we talked about giving people more opportunity, a mentor can play a big role in that. And so since I stepped into the chairman's role, but I was mentoring and before that, I've devoted more and more time to people, giving myself to them. And it's kind of interesting. I've collected a group of people, some of whom, by the way, I've never met except via zoom. Yeah uh. And they include Chris Paul, who is a point guard in the NBA will you know, will be a Hall of Fame point guard president the NBA Players Association. That mentorship became a friendship I'm mentoring some NFL players who are trying to create a business that provides better financial acumen and access to better investments for young players. I'm mentoring other people at the Walt Disney Company. I've got I'm doing some oaternship of a woman who started a really great small company in the cosmetics space, online director consumer and people have just reached out and either I read your book and I'd love some advice, or I work in your company and I'd love to talk to you more about who I am. And and I've tried to be really generous. I've had to say no a bit because my schedule has gotten complicated. But I'm probably mentoring I don't know six or seven people right now. That means so much, I'm sure to them, and it'd be great to just mentor somebody at the beginning of their career too, didn't play for the NBA or the NFL that just you know, that would be a fun, a fun thing for you to do. I mean, can you imagine how excited somebody who's twenty five years old, and you know, I always try to open the doors for people who have no connections. You know, who's father didn't go to school with their uncle, you know, and all that stuff, because I think it perpetuates this, you know, elite as a that we that that needs to be disrupted so badly. So find somebody who's like five and who would never in a million years have access to somebody like you. That would be so awesome, And I'll take that's good advice. I won't put an advertisement out about that. Abigail Disney, Uh, you know, as you know, recently or at some point, Uh gave a critique of the stark pay gap that exists in many corporations, including Disney, and she kind of pointed a finger at you and said, Bob Iger is kind of a nice guy, and everybody around him are nice people. What has become thought of as normal and the kind of thing nice people do isn't nice. And somebody has to say the emperor's wearing no clothes. Somebody just has to say it, you know. I think she was talking about the fact that you earn a thousand times more than the average Disney employee. And you know you've talked about this before, Bob um. You know, you have a salary around sixty six million of dollars, but You're not. You know, this is kind of a trend. You're not the only CEO who has been criticized for this um at a time when income inequality And by the way, I've been criticized too for the salaries I've made in the past, but at a time when income inequality is so so intense. You know, how do you think about that? How do you think about the kind of wealth a lot of CEOs have accumulated and the salaries that they're making. Just philosophically, well, I think it's a it's a very complicated subject. But I do think that the pay gap that exists in America. More importantly, the opportunity that people have in our country, opportunities are not as abundant, not as great as they should be. UM. And I think that's becoming more and more real, more and more profound, and more and more of a problem. UM I look, I don't want to get into details about how I've been compensated, except to say that even quoting numbers sometimes can be misleading. I get a salary, and I get bonuses that are based on the performance of the company, and I get stock that is based on the performance of the company. And the stock when they're granted, they don't necessarily pay out in the manner in which the headlines may suggest. Put that all aside, I work in a business that has compensated. CEO is very well UM, and my compensation actually has been consistent with the compensation of others in the business that I work in. I happen to have run the largest, most complex media company, and one could argue the most successful. That said, I am very very mindful of the fact that UM people today, young people today don't feel they have the kind of opportunity that perhaps my generation of people felt they had, whether that by the way, whether they are people of color, or whether as young people starting out that as they look ahead, they just don't have the optimism that I had that I would ultimately have access to if I if I performed well, UM, I would ultimately have access to much more. And that's a big problem. And I think that's a it's a leadership problem in America. I think it's a UM it's an infrastructure problem in America, meaning I just think the system is not serving all people well anymore. What advice would you give young people, Bob, You know you have an eighteen year old son. Uh, you know, what would you say to people starting out who you know have stars in their eyes and would love to to to work at a company like Disney or be in media of any kind. Well, look where we We've been lucky in that in the past, we've managed to expand our our employee ranks. Obviously, the pandemic is having a negative impact on that. On that, you know, I've I've always believed that people need to um determine what it is they're interested in and and meaning meaning know what your passion is in terms of how you want to spend your time. It's a lot of time that we do devote to work. To the extent you have that luxury, by the way, and pursue your passion with vigor. And when you're given opportunity to pursue it, you've got to work really hard. I think one of the things that I'm sure, knowing you as long as I do, know is that the value of hard work beach just about almost anything else. Showing up and being willing to put in the time and the energy and the commitment is the best possible way to opportunity. But even then, we know there are people that are willing to do that that don't get the kind of opportunities that you know, we were afforded that we'd like all people to have. But I don't think there's anything better than more effective than hard work. And I think if you pick something you love to do, it doesn't feel like work. I mean it sounds like a college commencement addressed it, probably both of us. But I'm giving one in May, and as we were talking, I'm thinking, I gotta start writing some of this town. You know, those are the hardest things in the world to do. Give it commencement address, particularly after we've all seen and heard Steve John Oh my gosh, especially now, especially now at Steve Jobs. That's right, and you guys became such good friends. He confided in you what was going on, uh with his illness. You know, cancer is something that's touched my life so profoundly as well. And what was that conversation like between you and Steve if you if you feel like it wasn't too private, well I described it in the book. Um, we were buying Pixar and we were fact it signed a deal and we're announcing it at Pixar and about an hour before the announcement, which is a big deal back then at seven point three billion dollar deal. He has to go for a walk and we left the building a Pixar and walked around the Pixar grounds and there was a bench and he sat down and put his arm around me. He had had cancer, that it was known to the world some couple of years earlier. If I recalled and had announced that he had been cured, it was an operation, and um, he said to me, I'm going to tell you something only my wife and my doctor no, And he told me that his cancer had returned. Uh. And I said, why are you telling me this? And he said, because he's giving me a chance to back out of the deal. He was worried that that the knowledge of him having cancer, or the fact that he did, would change my outlook on buying Pixar, and I had no ability to consult anybody else. And as I looked at my watch, we were then about thirty minutes till we're making this pig announcement. Here I am on a bench with Steve Jobs, not only horrified by the news that he's just given me, even though we hadn't become close yet, but thinking trying really hard to processes that is related to what my was sponsibilities were, and I asked him more questions. He told me among the things that um uh, he thought I should know is that he was intent on being at his son reads high school graduation. And I asked when is that? I think he said four years from that, and that was kind of enough for me. There was a Steve had an optimism almost till the very end, I don't think at the very end, but that he was going to beat this. Did there always be a new drug or the next drug or his will to survive? And it was infectious and knowing how he was approaching this gave me more confidence to just go forward and that's what we did. Yeah, and I live with that secret for quite a long period of time. I think that's the way that people. People have to be optimistic if there if they're going to live out whatever time they have left in the best possible way. And I think that's that's the best choice to make personally. And that's yeah, anyway I'm thinking about my husband, But I know it touched you very very personally and very profoundly. I know at a very young age too, with young kids. Yeah, imagine that you can relate. I'm writing a lot about that in the book I'm writing. Maybe you'll maybe you'll read it at some point. But you know about the regrets I have about not being honest about about the fact that Jay probably was going to die and not really talking about it, but talking about it and admitting it almost made it made it seem like we were giving up, you know. So it's such a such a fine balance when when someone you love is is dying about you know how much to to really talk about it. But that's that's a big regret that I have. Um on a lighter out, as we used to say on the Today Show, Um you were do you think you'd ever go into politics? I know, don't worry. I know you've been asked this a million times. I didn't worry. I thought about it seriously. I thought that the skills that I've learned in business were applicable to running either a country or a state or a city. And it was also, in my own mind, a way of giving back doing something that was hopefully good for society in our country. And so I did think about it seriously. I'm now going to be seventy and that doesn't mean, hey, you're spring chicken compared to compared to a lot of people out there, there are a couple of guys running for president that make me look young, right, Um, I rather doubt I will seek political office at this point in my life. It was something that I more than toyed with. I thought about seriously, who you talk to about about I owe many many people. I I set up meetings and interviews of sorts with experts and former politicians and posters and you name it. Um. I don't want to reveal what they were, but there are some folks who helped other people get elected to pretty high office, and they opened my eyes to a lot of things that I needed to consider more than anything. You know, I talked a lot to my wife about it. She wasn't exactly in averorative the idea. It didn't mean that she would stand in the way of it, but it would have been a very difficult thing to put my family through. I want to give Willow props because she's been an incredible dean of the Annenberg School of Communications. And you know, you guys must talk about this because you wanted to be in news and your news junkie and obviously Willow is training some of the future journalists of the world. Or do you find it disconcerting what's happened to the news business and just how polarized we are? And you know, I look at my Instagram Feedbob, and I feel like, you know, we're living in parallel universes where you know, there just doesn't seem to be any consensus. A lot of it is because of the the algorithms and the kind of content people get fed. I just watched this great documentary called The Social Dilemma, which I highly recommend, and I'm sure Willow if she hasn't seen it, we want to watch it. Yeah. I am more than disconcerted. I'm saddened by it all. I used to think that the truth really mattered, and that there was always a means of getting at the truth, uh and accepting what it was, even if you started off not believing it. There was a place of means, a dialogue of forum that ultimately would conclude what was right, you know, what was accurate. And I don't think that exists today, and it's very very sad. I think that there it's polarized, polarized society a polarized world would be one way to describe it, But I actually worry that it's the impact of such polarization could be far more profound. Uh. And you know what happens if two opposing sides have no ability to ever come to some agreement about something other than through sheer force. And I fear that that's ultimately what people will resort to, you know, to prove that their side is right, as opposed to dialogue and debate and consideration and kind of back and forth and either anymore it's it used to be things, of course more to talk about everything coursening. Well, let's not. It's worth much worse than that. Are you optimistic? Though, Bob? I hate to end things on that note. Um, I'm cautiously optimistic, but I'm also really worried. Um, I'm you know, I usually preach optimism because who the heck wants to wallowing pessimism or follow a pessimist, certainly when it comes to leadership. But I think what we're seeing today is of true concern, and I worry that only a crisis will we'll get us out of this? And who wants that? Well? Bob, I love talking to you. Thanks so much for all your time and and we'll definitely talk about your book, Right of a Lifetime, sell more copies, and and share the important messages I think on leadership that I think people are really hungry for. Thank you, Thanks for the opportunity to appreciate it. And that does it for this bonus episode of Back to Biz. Make sure to tune in for my new limited series called Turnout, exploring the past president and future of voting rights in America. It premiers October one and airs every Thursday through the fall season. You can find it and subscribe on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. So until next time, I'm Katie Curic. Thanks so much for listening everyone. Back to Biz with Katie and Bows is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media. The executive producers are Katie Kurrik, Bozma St John, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. The associate producers are Derek Clements, Eliza Costas, and Emily Pinto. Editing by Derek Clements and Lauren Hansen, Mixing by Derrek Clements. Special thanks to Adriana Fasio. For more information about today's episode, go to Katie kirk dot com. You can also follow Katie Kurik and Bozma st John on Twitter and Instagram. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,