Mother Mary

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Anne Hathaway is a holy pop star in 'Mother Mary' : Pop Culture Happy Hour
The surreal movie
Mother Mary
stars Anne Hathaway as a Gaga-esque pop star facing an existential crisis. She turns to her former costume designer and estranged friend, played by Michaela Coel, to find herself again. The reunion resurfaces old wounds, and then things get spooky and weird. The film features a few grandiose concert numbers with songs penned by Charli xcx, Jack Antonoff, and FKA twigs.
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Anne Hathaway is a holy pop star in 'Mother Mary'
April 27, 2026
3:00 AM ET
Pop Culture Happy Hour-04.27.2026
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[THEME MUSIC]
AISHA HARRIS: The surreal melodrama Mother Mary stars Anne Hathaway as a Gaga-esque pop star facing an existential crisis. And so she turns to her former costume designer and estranged friend, played by Michaela Coel, to find herself again. The movie's tagline warns us that this is not a love story, and it's not a ghost story, but there is some complicated love, and there might be a ghost. So what is it exactly? I'm not sure about that, but at least there's one thing that's for sure-- this is a visual marvel to behold. I'm Aisha Harris. And today we're talking about Mother Mary on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. Joining me today is NPR producer Marc Rivers. Hello, Marc.
MARC RIVERS: Hey, Aisha. Thanks for having me.
HARRIS: Great to have you. And also with us is Sidney Madden. She's a music and culture critic. Welcome back, Sidney.
SIDNEY MADDEN: What's up, Aisha? Thanks for having me.
HARRIS: Great to have you both. So Anne Hathaway plays the titular Mother Mary, a highly theatrical pop star who's at a personal and artistic crossroads. Just a few days away from a highly anticipated comeback performance, she shows up out of the blue on the doorstep of her former bestie and costume designer, Sam, who she hasn't spoken to in years. Sam's played by Michaela Coel. Now she wants Sam to design her look for the show, something that will feel like herself.
[AUDIO PLAYBACK]
SAM: Will you let me do whatever I like?
MOTHER MARY: Yes.
SAM: But will you do exactly as I say?
MARY: Yes.
SAM: And will you wear what I make?
MARY: Yes.
[END PLAYBACK]
HARRIS: The reunion resurfaces old wounds and forces them to confront the reasons for their fallout. And then things get spooky and really weird, and some would say maybe incomprehensible, but whatever. There are a few big concert numbers here. The songs were penned by Jack Antonoff, Charli XCX-- she's everywhere in the movies lately-- and FKA twigs, who has a small but notable role here. David Lowery directed. He previously made The Green Knight and A Ghost Story. And Mother Mary is in theaters now. Sidney, I'm going to start with you. Especially curious to hear about your music thoughts, but first, tell us how you felt about what this movie was doing, trying to do whatever this is. [LAUGHS]
MADDEN: I mean, trying to do is a lot. It's a lot. There's a lot going on in this movie. Some of it is really great, and some of it is pretty mid. And I'm not even going to say extra and too much. Some of it is just unnecessary, to be honest. I haven't been torn over a movie like this in a minute because of all the competing narratives, to be quite honest. Like, it's giving it's too much [INAUDIBLE] in a few key spots. I went in personally thinking it was going to be a fashion and music film, which are psychological and cultural touchpoints that I'm always looking at. But then when it switches, I understand it, but it doesn't entertain me, if that makes sense. I want to get to the great parts first. The great part is Michaela Coel and Anne Hathaway sparring, going back to back, line for line, bar for bar in here.
HARRIS: Yeah.
MADDEN: The tension between them is just so magnetic and spine tingling and funny, that that really is what keeps you engaged for a very long time. There's points when Michaela Coel playing Sam, the designer, you think she's going to start to forgive, and then she pulls all the way back. And it's like, you're getting an eye into the really deepest wounds and the deepest parts of their fight, even when they're kind of not even saying that much, to be honest.
RIVERS: They were doing a lot of not saying--
HARRIS: Yeah.
RIVERS: --what these wounds were.
MADDEN: They were doing a lot of not saying, but the tight shots of them not saying, and even the expression on their face, the emotiveness on their face. And I think there was something in the press notes about how this actually started in David Lowery's mind as just a static scene between two characters that represent two parts of his own consciousness that were warring against each other.
HARRIS: Yeah.
MADDEN: But the majority of that tension ultimately fizzles away for me when they get to the turn that the source of the betrayal is just that Anne Hathaway's pop star character dropped Sam as a stylist and a designer. Like, girl, I get that hurts. I get that's a betrayal, but that's also the business.
RIVERS: Like, get over it, right?
HARRIS: Yeah. Well, so here's my thing. It wasn't clear to me that Mother Mary had dropped Sam specifically. What I thought happened is that they had a falling out. Maybe she did drop her, but the impetus for that was the fact that Sam was not getting credit for her work with Mother Mary. And to me, that is a much thornier and sort of layered, sort of, betrayal than just dropping her. Because when I think about at least the way, in recent years, we're now suddenly inundated by these stylists who are working alongside, usually, actresses, but also pop stars and whatever, I think especially of Law Roach and Zendaya, like, that was in the back of my mind a lot while watching this movie. And when you add in the layer here that you have a white pop star who's being styled by a Black woman, and that Black woman is not getting credit for her Vogue shoot-- she says at one point, like, you didn't give me credit. And so that, to me, felt a little bit more like, oh, I can understand why Sam would be really upset about this. Like, because there is this sense of, like, I made you. Or like, it's not just you. I have put you on the map. Am I misreading? Like, Marc, I'm curious. Like, did you see that at all?
RIVERS: I think that's a totally reasonable read to take, because the movie, to me, just was giving you so little. So you had to kind of--
MADDEN: You had to build it yourself.
RIVERS: --take whatever kernel you could get--
HARRIS: Yeah.
RIVERS: --and then take something out of it. You know, I was really surprised at just how bored I was by a lot of it. And, you know, this is a filmmaker that I've liked in the past. I really liked The Green Knight from 2021, his kind of Middle Ages, 14th century Arthurian legend film. And I liked that this was a person who doesn't seem to repeat himself. Like, you would not have guessed that the maker of 2013's Ain't Them Bodies Saints, which was this kind of Terrence Malick-inspired "couple on the run" film, you would not have guessed that that filmmaker would have made A Ghost Story or The Green Knight, that he's kind of making this trip from the physical to the metaphysical realm, right? But as far as where we wind up with Mother Mary, I don't know where we are in this movie. It feels like some indeterminate, undefined space. And I think he had said that he had screened, like, Ingmar Bergman films for his cast. Lowery's film is missing the psychological probing, the deep psychological probing. And he's missing-- you know, the way the cinematography and the way the movie is shot almost makes psychological X-rays of the space and the characters. I didn't know what they were trying to deal with here. And I also just stopped caring because Coel and Hathaway were just kind of shotputting these vague generalities back and forth about doors closing and opening, and what did you do? And I didn't-- and you're going to do what you always do. And at a certain point, I just wanted to say, say something specific, please. Say something--
MADDEN: Yeah.
RIVERS: --direct. Stop with the metaphors. And at one point, I think Anne Hathaway's character says, these metaphors are getting exhausting. And I'm like--
HARRIS: Yeah.
RIVERS: --just because you're calling attention to the problem without solving it, it's still a problem, even if you're calling attention to this problem.
HARRIS: Yeah.
RIVERS: The tagline said it's not a ghost story. I think there is sort of-- there's kind of an exorcism story going on here.
HARRIS: Yeah.
RIVERS: But I didn't know what the film was exorcising. I didn't know, and by the end, I didn't really care.
MADDEN: Yeah. I mean, it's so funny that they named it, the tagline, this is not a ghost story, this is not a love story.
RIVERS: But what is it?
MADDEN: Then what is it? Then what is it?
HARRIS: But that seems intentional. It seems more cheeky than anything else. But yeah.
RIVERS: Yeah.
MADDEN: OK, so you had to get metaphysical to drive this point home, and you had to force us to use our imaginations so much more, because the real problem between the root of them is just how fickle and unjust this commodified creative space has been, you know?
HARRIS: Yeah. Yeah, there are a few things that I admire about this story that is being told. The performances and the sort of back-and-forth banter of the rat-a-tat between the two leads is really, for me, the meat of this. It's the thing that I'm able to latch on to and take something from. I also just think it's really visually stunning. Like, I loved the way this looks. I loved the way the barn-- it feels spooky. It feels cold, yet like there's a lot of tension in there, the way it's designed. And I love the images of the ghosts and how that is presented. And there's a moment that kind of, like-- as soon as I saw it, I was like, oh, this is giving me Get Out vibes. If you see it, you will know-- you will understand what I mean. I don't know if that--
MADDEN: Yeah.
HARRIS: --inspired this, but it's very similar. So I really liked that. And I like the fact that this is a, quote unquote, movie about, like, a "pop star" or pop music, that artistry, but is not about what we usually see when we delve into this, right? Like, it's very intimate. This is literally just a movie about beef, really, and, like, beef between, like, two artists, but one artist who is meant to, quote unquote, "support" the other artist in ways that they don't always get. Again, I think it goes back to the credit and visibility and being seen.
RIVERS: Yeah, there's an interesting racial dynamic there--
HARRIS: Yes.
MADDEN: Yep.
RIVERS: --potentially, at least.
HARRIS: Yes.
MADDEN: Because imagine if the roles were reversed.
HARRIS: Mm-hmm.
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARRIS: No, I could totally see it. And so I admire all of that, but at the same time, I do kind of land in the same place that you two do, which is that I could admire all of that. And I think even I could sort of take away a little bit more than maybe you, Marc. But at the end of the day, would I ever go back and rewatch this movie? I don't think so, because--
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARRIS: --there's something about that opaqueness that can only take me so far--
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARRIS: --in caring. I can't necessarily call myself a fan of Lowery's previous work. I haven't seen The Green Knight, but I did see A Ghost Story, and that was very tedious for me. I was able to latch on more to this movie than I was A Ghost Story. But I feel like if you like Suspiria, if you like those sorts of films, you will probably dig this.
RIVERS: I also thought about Black Swan when watching this.
HARRIS: Yes.
RIVERS: I thought about Under the Skin. And I even thought about Beyoncé's Lemonade, you know, as far as, like, this kind of probing of the star, this probing of this person, right? And I feel like--
HARRIS: Yeah.
RIVERS: --with Lemonade in particular, that work of art was reckoning with a variety of things. It was reckoning with, you know, the traumas of generations of Black women. It was reckoning with the anger of a wronged woman. It was reckoning with a triflin' ass husband, you know? It was reckoning with all these things. And the reckoning here, I'm like, what is really being reckoned with? I think--
MADDEN: Yeah.
RIVERS: --you know, Lowery, he said that the idea of this film also came from him kind of struggling with what kind of filmmaker he thought of himself to be, like, you know, the filmmaker who can make The Green Knight, but also can make a Peter Pan movie. And this movie has that kind of self-indulgent sense of "I'm having a debate with myself over something undefined within me that I have to figure out." But I didn't watch this movie getting a sense of what he felt about stardom, beyond it being a kind of-- there being a kind of maybe inherent weirdness to being a star and the separation between--
HARRIS: Yeah.
RIVERS: --who you are on the stage versus who you might be personally. But I didn't get a sense of actually how he felt about this industry. I didn't really get a sense of how he felt about art or creativity. I thought Anne Hathaway was pretty miscast here, honestly. I did not take her seriously as a pop superstar. And it's not really to her detriment as a performer. I think she's a very terrestrial actor. She's burdened by earthly things, you know? I think it makes her relatable. And I think--
HARRIS: Yeah.
RIVERS: --I think a thing about Lady Gaga figure or Madonna figure is kind of their unrelatability. They are kind of--
MADDEN: Yeah.
RIVERS: --existing in some higher plane. Even someone like FKA twigs--
HARRIS: Right.
RIVERS: --who shows up here, there's something a little bit removed. And Anne Hathaway, she's too relatable. She's like-- she's your friend, you know? And I just don't think--
HARRIS: Yeah.
RIVERS: --that really worked well here.
MADDEN: Yo, I love--
HARRIS: Yeah.
MADDEN: --that touchpoint because David Lowery and the actors, they've said that they watched pop documentaries, like Truth or Dare or Homecoming, and the throughline of those documentaries being very much not only the work ethic that goes behind, like, this grand show that you see as a fan, but also how each act, as a person, handles being seen as a larger-than-life figure, as a deity, right?
RIVERS: Yeah. Yeah.
MADDEN: Like, and that ties into Catholicism element of this with, like, Mother Mary and Mary Magdalene. But--
RIVERS: Yeah.
MADDEN: --no, that's a really good observation because that's-- I don't know that I would buy a ticket to a Mother Mary show, to be honest. Like, from-- based on the flashes that I've seen, I'm like, I don't think this is actually a really--
RIVERS: I listened to the playlist, and I was like, eh, it's all right. I'll listen to the soundtrack.
MADDEN: Yeah, yeah.
HARRIS: The music for me-- and this is-- again, this is a constant problem with any movie where there's supposed to be a pop star, a fictional pop star, and then you--
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARRIS: --hear their music, and you're like, I don't know, man. And there were some songs where I was definitely getting, like, oh, this is sort of Charlie-esque. And I love Charlie. Like, this is sort of Charlie.
RIVERS: I also thought of Florence and the Machine sometimes a little bit, too.
HARRIS: Florence and the Machine.
MADDEN: And Ellie Goulding.
HARRIS: And Ellie Goulding. Yeah, and I was also getting a little bit of Robyn as well. And I think Lowery also cited that as something he heard. But then there is a funny moment where, you know, there's this elaborate dance scene. And the whole time, I was thinking, like, how is she going to sing this? And then Michaela Coel's character, Sam, kind of says that exact thing, and I was like, OK, at least we acknowledge that this doesn't actually-- this is, like, so You Think You Can Dance dancing. This is like, not, like, I'm going to be-- have the mic on, fully on--
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARRIS: --while singing.
MADDEN: There's no room for breath control--
RIVERS: Yeah.
MADDEN: --and diaphragm--
HARRIS: Yeah.
MADDEN: --in those moves that she was doing. Yeah.
HARRIS: Yeah.
RIVERS: And at least in that scene, that, to me, was the rare scene of where I kind of felt the physicality of the movie. Like, she is--
HARRIS: Absolutely.
RIVERS: --she's exerting genuine, like, force.
MADDEN: Yeah, and also, like, on the point of that dance scene, the dress that Sam ends up making for her, there's no way she's going to be able to do that dance in the dress.
RIVERS: No.
MADDEN: So what are we doing here?
HARRIS: Yeah.
RIVERS: All for show.
HARRIS: Yeah.
RIVERS: I'll wear a--
HARRIS: No, absolutely. I mean, I did want to ask, though, like, even if you wouldn't go to that show, what do you think of the music itself? Like, did it stick with you? For me, there was maybe one song where I was like, oh, I'm going to go and try and find that song. Does this feel credible that Mother Mary would actually exist?
MADDEN: Well, going back to what we were saying before, like, it's fully dependent on who is delivering the song, who's performing the song.
HARRIS: Right.
MADDEN: Because two big songs that were dropped before the film came out were "Burial" and "My Mouth is Lonely for You." And even though that's a wild title, that's not that wild if, like, Charli XCX or FKA twigs is actually performing it and behind it. Then you think of the fact that it would be a music video with Anne Hathaway, and you're like, nah, girl, that's not it. It's giving karaoke. Good karaoke, but also karaoke.
MADDEN: [ANNE HATHAWAY, "MY MOUTH IS LONELY FOR YOU"] My mouth is lonely
MADDEN: For you, you, you
HARRIS: The vocals were also not necessarily in the way a lot of pop songs are. It's like, it's hard to understand, sometimes, what they're actually saying. And so that also kind of kept me at a remove as, like-- and that's the issue with pop songs, right? In pop stardom, unless you have all this lore about who this person is and--
MADDEN: The brand.
HARRIS: Yeah, that is very true. But it's hard to come into a movie where you're having a fictional pop star, and we don't know really what her brand is beyond Catholic iconography.
RIVERS: I mean, she's a cipher, right? I mean, like, we don't really--
HARRIS: Right.
RIVERS: --know who Mother Mary is as a person. And I think there's something to be said when an artist like Charli XCX or FKA twigs, you know, you set-- you know, brat, these are personal statements--
HARRIS: Yeah.
RIVERS: --of sorts These are philosophical statements of how to live, you know, but they're coming directly from them. And there's something to be said about the difference between doing that and just saying, here are a few songs for some--
MADDEN: Stand-in.
RIVERS: --archetypal figure in pop. And I think you lose a bit of that personality. You lose a bit of the inspiration and imagination that might go into pop music making when you're just doing it for someone else.
HARRIS: Right.
RIVERS: It's-- I think it's a whole separate conversation about whether we need to kind of take a break from Jack Antonoff-produced pop music. When I think about the soundtrack as a whole, I go back to that "Holy Spirit" song.
RIVERS: [ANNE HATHAWAY, "HOLY SPIRIT"] Are you there? Are you mine?
RIVERS: Do you feel holy? Are you real or divine? Do you feel holy?
RIVERS: And that, to me, is, like, the whole movie in a nutshell, these vague, general questions without answers, and, like, so lacking in context or, like, recognizable human feeling, that you don't care about the answers anyway, whether they're going to give them to you or not.
MADDEN: You could say she's an amalgamation of a lot of people, and she's biting a lot of people's tease. But there is actually a working gothic pop group called Mothermary that have been active for, like, I want to say, the last 10 years.
HARRIS: Oh, wow.
MADDEN: And it's formed by two twins, Larena and Elise Winn. And they grew up in Mormonism. So a lot of their music has to do with--
HARRIS: Oh, wow.
MADDEN: --subverting the religious rigidity of that faith. And so a lot of people were getting confused that it was associated with this pop group. And the pop group, they actually came out and said, no, we're trying to work with A24 to send, like-- have some clarity in this because what it's going to do is create confusion in the market of, does this film have anything to do with our pop group?
HARRIS: Oh.
MADDEN: And it's kind of--
HARRIS: This is giving Antebellum, Lady Antebellum, when they were switching over their names and--
MADDEN: Lady M. And then they changed it to Lady M, and then that's now stomping on the artistry and the whole career of another artist, too. So it's just so funny--
HARRIS: Yeah.
MADDEN: --how, going back to Aisha, you were saying part of the betrayal is not getting credit or not being given credit and the power dynamics there. And this entire movie, this entire creation of the character, it's stomping on this pop duo that really exists and is trying to make music.
HARRIS: Well, also, I think, before we even started taping, one of you kind of said, you know, maybe we should have seen FKA twigs in this role--
MADDEN: Yeah, Marc said that.
HARRIS: --of Mother Mary.
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARRIS: It does kind of make more sense because she is the pop star that I think Mother Mary, the character in this movie, is--
RIVERS: Yes.
HARRIS: --supposed to kind of be, but instead, she's kind of-- I hate to invoke this name, but like Katy Perry-ish. Not in, like--
RIVERS: Oof.
MADDEN: Shots fired.
HARRIS: Not cringey, but going back to that idea of her as, like, this sort of relatable-- Anne Hathaway is very-- there's something a little bit more down to earth or just, like--
RIVERS: It's like approachable.
HARRIS: Approachable.
RIVERS: Right?
HARRIS: Right, as opposed to, yes, the weird, sort of very theatrical Lady Gaga, Madonna persona, that sort of thing. And even FKA twigs, who she is-- there's just something about her that just oozes, like, artist, weird hippie counterculture artist as opposed to--
MADDEN: Like, on a different frequency.
HARRIS: Exactly.
RIVERS: The way we're all struggling to, like, describe it, it's like, that is what you need.
HARRIS: Yes, it's ineffable. It's ineffable.
RIVERS: Right. It's like something uncanny, right?
MADDEN: Overall, to me, this film overflows with so much metaphor and so much music, but it actually, ultimately, dampens the movement of the piece. Like, it dampens the plot. The fact that we all came out of it and you're like, so what is this? You know, that's not a good sign.
[THEME MUSIC]
HARRIS: Yeah. Well, look, maybe everyone else should not take our word for it, but go check it out and then ask yourself, what? What did I just watch? [LAUGHS] So that brings us to the end of our show. Sidney Madden, Marc Rivers, thanks so much for being here. We didn't get any answers, but we did-- we did have a good time. I had a good time.
MADDEN: Me, too. Thank you.
RIVERS: I had a great time. Thanks, guys.
HARRIS: And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour+ is a great way to support our show and public radio because you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor-free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org/happyhour, or visit the link in our show notes. This episode is produced by Liz Metzger, Hafsa Fathima, and Mike Katzif, and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello Come In provides our theme music. And thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris. We'll see you all next time.
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