The Hidden Trauma Behind This Comedy Star's Rise to Fame | Margaret Cho

 They wanted you to be a lot less of what? They wanted me to be a lot less fat. Like, you're way too fat to be you. I don't know how to ask this question. Who sexually abused you? A lot of people. A lot of people? Yeah. My parents, they kind of gave up on me as having any kind of future whatsoever.
 I think I was probably about 15 when I met him. He would write me such incredible encouragement, and I just never thought an adult would take the time to do that in such a very gentle way. This is going to take some pretty wild turns, but Mr. Jackson was murdered. Yes. The killer was a teenager living on the street, taken in by Mr. Jackson, alleged Mr. Jackson had gone on to groom him and sexually abuse him.
 It's, you know, that thing of separate the art from the artist. It's so complex. All I know is that he was there for me in a time of my life where I needed him. And it encourages me to do the same for a lot of comedians. As complicated as the story is as we present it, what would you want to say to him?
 Margaret Cho makes us laugh. She's a legendary comedian. But what you are about to witness is pretty intense. An hour before she walked into my house and our conversation began, my team and I uncovered information buried in court documents that revealed the person Margaret says believed in her was an alleged sexual predator. And she had no clue. I told her off camera. I told her I understood completely if she wanted to just leave and cancel. And she didn't.
 What followed is one of the most raw and revealing conversations I have ever been a part of. Welcome to the show, Margaret Cho. Thank you. Great to see you. Who's with you? This is Lucia Katerina Cho. Seven years old. She's seven. Service animal? Yes. And also my friend and got to meet Paddington. My love. The love of my life. Beautiful boy. Why is she a service animal? Yes.
 She has. I mean, she's just a help to me. I think she's just so incredibly intuitive about what I need. She's there for me. I have a lot of anxiety and I have a lot of different health issues, and she's just marvelous. So she's a wonderful dog. For the people who aren't watching but listening, what kind of dog is she?
 She's a chihuahua and a Dalmatian mix. Oh, wow. So I don't see it. I don't either. Really pretty, too. She's really pretty. As she licks your straw and cup. I usually start with a picture, but we couldn't find one. Mr. Jackson. Yes. Take me back to that time. You were how old when you met him? I think I was probably about 15 when I met him. Maybe getting a little bit towards 16, and I had just transferred schools. I'd gone from Lowell.
 And I had gotten expelled for bad grades and poor attendance. Kind of truancy, I guess, is the right term. And then I went and I auditioned to be in the School of the Arts. And I was selected to go to that school. So it was a very exciting thing. But James Jackson was not part of the...
 Like there was two schools really. It was the School of the Arts, which was like the famous fame school. And then there was McAteer. So Mr. Jackson was part of McAteer, which was the regular high school. So we would have half of our day would be spent in School of the Arts and the other half would be in the regular high school. So he was a regular high school teacher. When I read the research that the producer had done with you, I thought, okay, well, how meaningful can some notes from an English teacher be in your book? But they were. They were pretty profound. Yes. Tell me why.
 I think that I just never been acknowledged for my writing or my creativity. And, you know, I was just a really young kid. So I never even thought about what that would mean. I mean, my parents had essentially given up on me because they were so disappointed that I had been kicked out of this very, very prestigious school. You know, a lot of people would just move to our area just so that their kids could go there.
 And it was an education that it wasn't that I did poorly. It's just that I didn't care. I didn't go. I was just not wanting to go to class. And so my parents were so mad at me about that. They kind of gave up on me as having any kind of,
 future whatsoever. It was really sad, actually. So I was determined to kind of make it on my own terms. Like, I don't really care about the school, but it does have an arts program. I am interested in that. And maybe I can do something. And so this writing project, which was Mr. Jackson would give us this composition book at the beginning of the year, and we would write essays in it. And he would
 give it back to us after grading it. And he would write me such incredible encouragement in the margins as part of grading, just about how brilliant I was and how funny I was and how he really looked forward to reading me. And I just never thought an adult would take the time to do that in such a very gentle way, in a way that was also...
 A little bit evasive because it wasn't a kind of intimacy where we weren't talking about it. You know, we were just passing notes. And there's just something so tender about that and so poetic. So I was really encouraged.
 Do you remember the first memory you had when you thought, this makes me feel good, what he just said? I mean, it sounds so simple, but I understand how profound it could be. One of the people who believed in me was also a teacher, who also happened to be an English teacher, was my speech coach, Josette Surratt. Shout out to Miss Surratt. But tell me, do you remember the first note you got? I don't expect you to remember every word, but do you remember the feeling you had the first time he wrote that?
 It was really, it was just A+, so great, underlined, and it just felt like,
 I had forgotten what academic achievement felt like because I hadn't participated. And it was also something that ignited something in me from before because before I went to the high school that I got kicked out of, I was an excellent student. I was really motivated. I was considered –
 Really, really smart. Like, you know, whatever in these sort of advanced classes and those kinds, that sort of AP kind of thing. Like, and I really forgotten that I had taken pride in that. And that when I heard that from him for the first time in a couple of years, it really reinvigorated that student that, that wanted to learn and wanted to excel. Yeah.
 You talk about yourself as a kid trying to fit in. But in many ways, he was an adult trying to fit in too. You describe him as a Southern Barbara Walters. He had a speech impediment and had a funny, I guess, Southern way of talking.
 Yeah, I can't even describe how it was very curly. It was curlicues. It was Tennessee Williams, but it was Barbara Walter. It was, yeah, it was a very odd way of speaking combined with this hair that was just –
 From the 1960s, which at that time, actually, think about it, it really wasn't that long ago. Like, so it was maybe 16 or 17 years past its prime. But, you know, that's really not that outdated. If we think about, you know, today's culture, it's like really not that long ago. I mean, this is the 60s, but, you know.
 A peculiar character, right? Roto motorcycle. Right. Roto motorcycle. Leather jacket. Like right out of the wild ones, like that Marlon Brando look. Cigarettes in the sleeve. Yes. You know, and she wants some water. Oh, baby.
 For people listening, the dog is drinking water out of the cup. I mean, you want to talk about VIP service. And for those of you watching, it doesn't get much cuter than this because I would do the same thing for Paddington. Yeah. The same thing. Can I tell you just for a moment? I didn't grow up with dogs. I didn't want a dog. And my partner basically forced a dog on me. I had never known the love of a dog.
 And we got Paddington and Margaret. I am here to tell you, he has changed my life. He's a beautiful dog. Thank you. He's just so sweet and fluffy like a teddy bear. He's really like a toy. He fits his name, Paddington, like a little bear. You know when people talk like, oh, I never wanted kids and I had a kid and it's the best thing. It's kind of the same. Daddy had hunting dogs, but they were dogs that lived outside. They didn't live inside. Right.
 And so the idea of having one inside, I just didn't want. And I'm telling you, I'm now that person people roll their eyes at. I will take Padding to a restaurant and people look at me. I'm like, I know y'all. I used to be y'all. I'd be like, look at that person bringing that damn dog in here. It's very French. It's very French. You really should. Well, I am French. So back to Mr. Jackson. He himself dealt with a lot of bullying. Yes. Did you see that? Did you hear that?
 I didn't see it firsthand. You know, I think that like, I just heard about it because we were also in class with a lot of jocks, you know, the boys in the school who were all sort of in the sports teams and very alpha male, very misogynistic, very homophobic, who were, you know, always sort of talking about Mr. Jackson behind his back and saying this.
 faggot and, you know, that kind of stuff. And, you know, Mr. Jackson was just kind of like, not oblivious, but also just not caring. Like he didn't really take it to heart.
 How did that impact you? Because you are now openly gay. Yes. But you've been previously married to a man and you haven't been openly gay your whole life. I, too, am gay. But I certainly was very much in the closet when I was in school. So you were in the closet then. When you saw that happening to him, how did it make you feel? Yeah.
 it made me feel really scared. You know, also, it just made me really think about how hard it was just to be honest in life, you know, how hard it was to just really present who you were. Not to say that I really cared about what any of these boys thought anyway. Like, it wasn't as if I was in the running of, like, who they would consider a girl anyway. You know, like, I was an overweight teenager. I was kind of, like...
 really just trying to stay near the wall so I don't get bullied, like that kind of wallflower behavior. Like I'm just going to try to blend in to my surroundings so that I just don't get bullied. So when you sort of hear that, them trying to bully a teacher, it's really alarming. I got bullied for being gay and for having Tourette's and the facial tics that I do. What were you bullied for?
 I think my weight, I think probably for being gay, although I didn't even know at the time or understand. Right, right. I didn't even – I mean I knew that gay people existed, but for me they were adults and they were –
 much more advanced in life. Like when I was young, I just, I never really got it. I knew that I was really attached to girls. Like my friendships were not normal. Like my friendships were like so dramatic and like anything that would happen with like my little girlfriends, I would just like scream and cry. And then my best friend, Jerry, who was in the class with me with, with Mr. Jackson, who adored him as well. She and I had, um,
 40-year relationship that was not romantic, but it was also not platonic. So it was much more. Like an emotional relationship. An emotional, like, you know, and she's passed away as well. And that sort of made me feel very alone in the world. You know, when you grow up with somebody that you feel is like you're a person and then they're gone.
 So the audience has heard now that Mr. Jackson has passed away. And we should say this is going to take some pretty wild turns as we go along. But Mr. Jackson was murdered. Yes. By a young man that he took in who was homeless on the street. You thought that maybe his killer had died himself, right? You weren't aware that the killer is still alive. Right. So it turns out, based on our research, the killer –
 is still alive and actually is on death row. The killer, who was a teenager living on the street, taken in by Mr. Jackson, who fed him, gave him a bed, safe place to stay. The killer alleged, alleged, that Mr. Jackson had gone on to groom him and to sexually abuse him. And so the killer later told police
 that he picked up a dumbbell and killed Mr. Jackson one night. Shortly thereafter, within 24 hours, the killer was involved in another crime on the street with another man, and for that crime he was caught.
 After being brought in, he confessed to killing Mr. Jackson. And several years later, actually killed another man in prison. And today, the killer, whose name I don't need to use, but today that killer is actually on death row. Your reaction hearing that? It's so painful because I think...
 You know, I always want to believe survivors. I'm a survivor of sexual abuse myself. So I understand the pain and trauma that that young man probably was facing and that would make him do such an extreme act. Mm-hmm.
 But it's also so painful to think about somebody that I treasured so much in my life. He wasn't in my life for very long, but I treasured his encouragement. And his encouragement really led me to my career path and the success that I enjoy today. So to think of that person being a sexual predator is really painful because—
 It's almost as if, you know, that thing of, can we separate the art from the artist? You know, I wonder what I can do now with those feelings. And it just adds so much depth and dimension to the story. And complexity. It's so complex. And we are human beings. And we also ultimately don't know the truth, even though I want to always say survivors are bearers of the truth.
 So that's another good point. What I just read from were court documents that we pulled from the killer's most recent proceedings before the California Supreme Court in 2025.
 This has not been proven in a court of law. In other words, the killer's accusations that your teacher, Mr. Jackson, Jackson sexually abused him has not been found to be true by a jury, right? But it's what he told his probation officer. It's what he said. And so it went into the court filings. And as a journalist, I felt both obligated to the audience and to you to tell you. And I will, you know, you and I didn't know before we met today. Mm-hmm.
 And I was sad when I read this because this show in some way puts a halo over people, right? So every person we lift up to say, oh, this person believed in the Margaret show. And when I came across this, like my heart just plummeted because it was like, oh, no. But then in a way, Margaret, after 25 years of storytelling and 43 years of living,
 One thing I've learned and gotten more comfortable with is that people are imperfect and two things can be true. You could have had a glorious experience with Mr. Jackson and he could have been allegedly a sexual predator who is not here to defend himself. Mm-hmm.
 Yeah. So I don't know. All I know is that he was there for me in a time of my life where I needed him and he really showed up and it encourages me to do the same for younger people, for a lot of comedians who really rely on me because they watched me and they thought, I'm going to do this because I, I, I, I could do it because she does, she did it. So it's like, I feel like,
 My encouragement means so much, and so I give it really generously. I think it's really powerful. Did you ever tell him how much he meant to you then? No. Yeah. No, because you never— You don't have the perspective. Yeah, you don't have a way to. You're also very—I think—
 Very shy about that kind of stuff. When you're a kid, you're like 16. That's vulnerable talk. You're not doing that at 16. But you could probably see it in my face. You could probably see it in our interactions. We could probably see it in the way that Jerry and I, she and I were so excited to see him and hang out with him.
 How often – this him leaving notes that were inspirational, motivational to you. How often did that go on for? How long did that go on for? Well, a couple of years because I was in his class for a couple of years. So, yes. No, it's like probably junior and then sophomore, junior, something like that. So it's like the –
 the time period is extended. So it was over a couple of years. I bet he never intended or set out to have an impact that 30 some odd years later, you'd be talking about as being game changing in your life. Yeah. I bring that up only because that's the lesson to you and I. Yeah. Is how can we be that from other, for other people? Somebody sat in that chair who looks at you as a mentor, Joel Kim booster.
 Oh, he's my firstborn son. That's my firstborn son. Yeah. Sat right here. I love him. And talk about been through some trauma. Yeah. But has come out with a testimony. That is a special dude. He is really phenomenal. And there's a reason why he's my firstborn son. I claim him. And he is really, he's so remarkable. He's so brilliant. And I'm just so proud of all that he's accomplished and who he is.
 I was stunned to hear that 92% of the people who watch our podcast haven't yet subscribed to our YouTube channel. So if you're enjoying this episode, please share it with a friend and subscribe. We appreciate it and it'll help more than you know. Speaking of being born, take me back to San Francisco, right? Born there, your parents came from? Busan and Seoul, Korea. Okay. In 1964. Okay. Why San Francisco?
 I think there was just a church that, which was a big church in Chinatown that was kind of a very big sort of meeting point for Korean immigrants at the time. So there was a community that was sort of built in. They had a banking system that came out of the church called the Gae, which kind of helped people get...
 So you would come into the church and you would put in your savings there because at that time they really didn't trust banks and they didn't trust sort of banking institutions in this new country they were in. So my parents went and they invested in the care and they were able to buy a house. And it came to me.
 Do you think later that my parents got to buy a business, which was a gay bookstore? And I think the reason my parents bought a gay bookstore, and this is in 1978, so they were not gay activists and they were not particularly aware of gay culture. But my father –
 is really handsome. And when he came to America, he was shocked that nobody noticed because in Korea, like, he was so handsome. The people, everything, everything would stop. Like, everybody would stop talking because he was so gorgeous. And he didn't have that same power here because America had not seen BTS yet. They didn't have Netflix or they didn't have K-dramas. They didn't know or recognize that a Korean man
 He could be handsome until he went to the gay neighborhoods where he would turn every man's head. That is fascinating. And he loved the attention, didn't he? He loved the attention. And so he bought this bookstore and all the employees at the bookstore, they're all painters and artists. And they drew loving portraits of him, which he still has hanging in his home.
 He's very fond of all his male admirers. I want to show the audience watching on YouTube what he looks like. But that's your dad. That's my dad. That's my mom. Still handsome today. How old is this picture? That's from 2011. So it's quite a while. So they're both now living in Irvine, Southern California. Yes. Live independently? No, they live in assisted living, which is independent enough for them. Absolutely. They're doing good. What's your dad's name? Sung Hoon Cho. And mom's name? Young Hee Cho. Are you close with them? Yes, yes.
 That's wonderful. You're an only child. No, I have a brother. He is five years younger than me. Five years younger. In the business? He's an editor and an actor. Yeah, he's a really amazing actor. And yeah, he's awesome. He lives a few blocks away from me. So dad buys the bookstore and that goes on for how long?
 He bought the bookstore in 1978, and then we were there, I think, until the mid-90s. It was really hard, though, because when AIDS totally devastated the community, it really took a lot of...
 The business is with it. You know, everything on the block, you know, that neighborhood, you know, there were a couple of gay enclaves in San Francisco. Of course, San Francisco is a very gay city and everybody knows about the Castro. But this was in the Paul Galt area. So all of the businesses on the street went under because the consumers just had all passed away. And it was so incredibly tragic. Do your parents know that you're gay? Yeah. And how are they with that?
 They're fine with that. The problem they have is the bisexuality because they don't believe in bisexuality because they're from the old gay mentality that if you're bi, it's a lie. You know, like, oh, no, this. No, that's not real. Only gay or not gay. Only. They just don't get it.
 I will tell you, in some ways I agree with them because I don't – as a gay man, I don't get the whole bi thing because I've never, ever been physically attracted to a woman. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So for me, it's fascinating. But you know what? That also gives me a lot of reverence and respect for people who are trans because if I can't understand what it's like to be trans, it gives me respect for people who don't understand what it's like to be gay. Yeah.
 You understand what I'm saying? Totally. In some way, it gives me grace for the people I grew up around who didn't get it. And so I think we need to give space and permission for people to say, I don't get it. Yeah. But that doesn't give you permission to be hateful. No. No. Or oppressive. No. Or deny people rights. That's right. That's the most important thing. That's the most important thing.
 I mean, this is too cute to be alive. That's my favorite haircut. I think it's a Bixie. Describe this picture. How old are you? I'm 100 days old. So this is a very big thing in Korea because most kids would die before they were 100 days old. So if you go out to be 100 days, you're going to make it. So at this sort of party, they would give you a pen, I think money, maybe a fork, a bunch of implements in whatever you grabbed. That would be your profession.
 I believe I grabbed a pen, but I don't know. Fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. And that was to signal what? The pen would mean-
 So I guess the tradition holds true. I think so. Because you kind of are. I am. You are a writer. I am a writer. So I did, I did, I grabbed the pen and yeah, all of those offerings are kind of for the, they're sort of for the spirits, the ancestors and you know, it's all their favorite foods. Forgive me. I also didn't know you're a musician. Yes. You sing. Yes. How long have you been singing?
 I've been singing since I was probably about five years old. My parents are both really good vocalists. My mother's much better. And my father's a pianist. And they met in church choir. So they come from music. I don't know how to ask this question. Who sexually abused you? A lot of people. A lot of people. A lot of people. A lot. I mean, yeah. And then, you know—
 It's a lot of people. Yeah. I mean, I think in the 1980s, the 70s and 80s in particular, as a young girl, the idea of young girl sexuality was marketed. It was somehow this very normalized thing. You know, I look at Brooke Shields story and I identify I was not a model, of course, and I was not on.
 any billboards or anything like that. But the way that she was perceived by the world, I find that very familiar. When you have an era that corresponds with that kind of mentality, you're going to have a lot of people who come away with it having survived abuse. Okay. Are you, like, were you marketed? I'm confused. Like, how did... The idea of young girl sexuality was just an...
 out there in the ethos. So it was a kind of thing where I would see an unwarranted penis every day from like the ages of seven to, I don't know, well into adulthood. I mean, there was just something about young girls, being a young girl at that time that was really dangerous.
 Was this mostly happening from men in your community, like the Korean community? A little bit there, but then mostly just around the houses where I lived, around our schools, a lot around the schools. The flasher, that was so 70s. You know, like a flasher would come with like a trench coat.
 Is it true that you said around age 5 to 12 your parents pretended that it was excusable?
 I think they would just try to deny that it existed. And then – and now it's like they just are like, we just don't want to talk about it. We just don't want to – we just are having such a good time. Why do we have to bring this into – why do we have to face this now? And so there's still a block. There's still a kind of resistance. Yeah. Because they're just like, we've suffered so much. Why do we have to continue suffering? So, I mean –
 It's one of those things where I talk about it a lot in my work. I talk about it a lot in my writing. I talk a lot about it just in general. And it makes a lot of people super uncomfortable. People in my family are super uncomfortable, but they're also like in denial, which I can't really do anything about that.
 People who were gay have said to me, because I was abused, I think that's maybe why I'm a lesbian or I'm gay. And, you know, do you think in any way that's your story?
 No. I think the reason why I love gay men is because they make me feel so safe. Yeah. I think that's why I was so happy to be in a gay bookstore and grow up there and I had such closeness with all of the people there is because I knew that I was not going to be victimized in any sort of way. And so –
 But I'm saying somebody listening might say, oh, maybe she's a lesbian because she was sexually abused. I don't think so. I don't think so because the reason I want to be with women is so intense. It's really like – and it's so emotional that it's not –
 I think it predates anything like that, but I also think, you know, it's up to people's interpretation of what makes anybody what they are.
 I mean, for me, loving a man is as natural as breathing air. Yeah. Truly. Yeah. In order to be physically intimate with a woman, I would have to work on it. Yeah, it just would be weird. I'd have to work on it. Like, I think it's so weird. It would be so sad. It would be so sad. I made Margaret Cho laugh. Can we just, like, punctuate that for a moment, please? Thank you.
 It would be really, really a challenge. I mean, that's just, yeah. Why should we have to go against our nature? Why should we have to? But I'm attracted to both. I'm attracted to men and women. Fascinating. You know, I feel the same kind of emotional pull for both romantically and physically. So I can see the duality. I can understand the idea of choice.
 Going back to what you said where your parents sort of excused it and kind of didn't want to hear about it, would it be accurate to say that that time in San Francisco was also just so different than the time we're living in, where I feel like society today is very black and white? Like sexual abuse is wrong. There are no excuses. There's no contextualizing it to make it okay. Like it is wrong. There's no two sides to sexual abuse. It's wrong. Mm-hmm.
 It wasn't black and white like that in the 70s. Right. Is that – that's what you're suggesting. I think that there was a kind – well, yeah, in society, there was a kind of leniency around it. When you had films like Tess, which is a famous Roman Polanski film, I think it was like up for best picture, the Academy Awards. And it's about a kind of very inappropriate relationship and a kind of a –
 sexualization of a very young girl. And so, you know, to have that be the example of like best picture. Then who was the first person to tell you, Margaret, this is wrong. This is abuse. Um,
 I don't know. I think it... I don't know. I think I knew. You know when it's happening. It's wrong. You can feel it. Yeah, yeah. And then it's terrifying. So you feel the terror of it, and you know it's wrong. Like, it's your animal...
 brain ignites you like that, that sort of animal fear. You were raped in high school. You said, um, did you ever tell Mr. Jackson about any of the abuse you suffered? No. I mean that it wasn't, did you ever confide in anyone?
 I told my friend Jerry. I mean, I told her everything. So Jerry. Jerry. When did you tell your parents? I didn't tell them until much later. I didn't tell them until much later. But they still didn't really understand. They still didn't really. They're like, well, why are we bringing it now? Because then it's going to continue to hurt you. Right. When you talk about it, it continues to give it energy. It continues to give it focus. So it's just going to cause more pain. It's a different approach. Right.
 So you leave San Francisco. Was comedian and comedy what you did? Yes. Immediately? Yes. Always. Always. You had the show First Asian American Woman to Headline a Primetime ABC sitcom, and that was in 94. Yes. Right? You graduated high school in? I didn't graduate, but I would have graduated. Oh, you didn't? No. Why? If I had graduated, I would have graduated around 1987. Why didn't you graduate?
 I just didn't, I didn't want to go. This had to do with Mr. Jackson when he was murdered. And this must've been in my senior year or something like that. But we, Jerry and I found out that he had been killed by the jocks in our classroom who were making fun of the fact that that faggot got murdered. And Jerry and I were so disgusted and we both just got up and
 We left. We're like, we're not doing this anymore. And we both decided together to leave school and never return. And I mean, and that's really sad, actually. Like, I wish that I had stayed. I wish I had a high school diploma. I wish I'd gone to college. I wish I hadn't been so cavalier about my education. Could have helped me. But, you know, it's all right. So Mr. Jackson's murder is what drove you to leave. Yes. Wow. Yeah.
 Wow. How's Jerry today, by the way? You mentioned it many times. Oh, she's died. She died in- I'm sorry, Jerry. She, yes. She died in 2018. Okay. Okay. Why? She died of a drug overdose. She never quite got it together. Like, it's tough. It's tough. She and I both struggled with that for a long time. And I've been sober for 10 years. And, you know, it's like-
 Yeah, it's really hard to keep going without somebody that was there for you from the beginning. What were you addicted to? Everything. I think I was just addicted to being addicted. You have an addictive personality. Yeah. Still today? Yeah.
 Not in the same way, except I've done a lot of work on it. You know, a lot of, many years of therapy, many years of rehab and all sorts of things. But yeah, I mean, I have an addictive personality and I have a kind of impulsive, it's more impulsive. It's what I just want to do things. And so that's what I work on. How do you square the fact that that impulsivity is what probably makes you a terrific comedian?
 Yeah. Well, you know, you take the good and the bad. How do you manage the bad? You manage the bad by, well, living with a sense of purpose and I have a very structured life and I stay away from all kinds of bad things. Yeah. How do you keep yourself accountable?
 Well, I'm old now too. So that's not as easy. Well, it's not as easy to be bad. Right, right, right. Because you really feel it. Yeah. You know? So – and you really – you feel accountable to yourself. Like I'm much more into like parenting myself. Plus I have this dog. Yeah.
 who won't let me get into trouble because she's quite a, she's a harsh taskmaster. So it's very, you know, I'm responsible to a lot of animals. I'm responsible to my friends and my family. So yeah, I can't. No kids for you. No. On purpose? Yeah. Yeah. Just didn't feel the calling. Well, you know, I just think I wasn't in the right place and I wasn't,
 I also like don't want to love anybody that much. Tell me more about that. Yeah, that's my thing. Like I just think it's so hard if you are a parent because you have to love the kids so much. Yes, Margaret, you do have to love them so much. So that to me would be very painful to be that beholden to somebody else.
 Okay. And you're serious. That's not a joke. No, it's not a joke. I think that's, I mean, it's a personal failing. It's a personal understanding. Like, I don't know if I can be that selfless. How are you with your parents? I mean, I'm good. You know, they're good. They seem like they need a lot from you. They do. They're at a stage in life where- Yeah, that's okay. But you enjoy that kind of service. Yeah, that's totally fine. Okay. It's totally fine. It's more-
 Yeah, like if I think about having a child, it seems like such a burden, which is really, it's an awful thing to say, but I feel like it's too much for me. Do you experience joy in life? Yes, all the time.
 Someone once said to me, there's a difference between things that give me joy and things that bring me joy. And I took that to mean things that give me joy or sort of I just sit here and things give me joy. But things that bring me joy, I go out and look for, right? What do you do that brings you joy?
 I like to take care of my pets. I have three cats. I really love it when I can get all of their nails clipped. That brings me so much joy. I get it. I get it. It's such a big deal. Yeah. It's hard because I have to do it when they're super tired and I don't want to like restrain them at all. So it's like I got to get one nail here and when I can get all their nails done and her nails done, everybody's happy. But here's what's interesting. Yeah.
 You don't want the work that would come with a child, but it's almost the same work with them. Yeah. To a degree. Yeah. As many as I have, too. Right. Yeah. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a little different, though, because it's a different species. It's kind of...
 It's a little lighter on the responsibility scale. You know, it's just a different feeling. I want to go back to when you headlined that ABC show. Talk to me about what they didn't want you to be. They wanted you to be a lot less of what?
 Well, they wanted me to be a lot less fat. So I was very, that was the main criticism was of my body. Like they were like, you're way too fat to be you. Like I was supposed to be me in the show, like I'm playing myself. And then I'm like-
 super, everybody's freaking out because I was like so fat. So I was really shocked because I, I mean, always had like body issues, but because there was a comedian, I thought, oh, it doesn't matter. I don't have to worry about that because we don't care about whether comedians are fat or not. Is it true that they hired a coach to teach you how to be more Asian?
 Yes. And also, like, we're questioning, are we too Asian? Are we Asian enough? So they hired a couple of very educated people from UCLA to come and talk to us about Korean culture. How do you be more Asian? I don't know. I don't know. But they wanted to sort of – they wanted to do what they were doing. There was another show at the time that was really successful called Third Rock from the Sun. Yeah. They actually had NASA consultants on the show. So they could talk about –
 um extraterrestrial life with some authority and so they were kind of doing the same thing you know they were trying to figure out because they'd never done a show about an asian american family maybe we need consultants from the university to tell us if we're doing this right but so so then are you suggesting that maybe them hiring those consultants for your show was just wanting to educate you or was it wanting to change you
 I think a bit of both. And also so much fear around showing what the other lives like and looks like and is like. So much real like misunderstanding that it all comes down to comedy and if we're funny and that's all that should matter.
 You said, I don't understand. I'm too fat to play myself. Yeah. That was one of your quotes. And what was the answer to that when you asked? They just wanted the show to have the best chance it could. And the main criticism from everyone was that I was just too fat. And that didn't mean that I was actually fat. It was just the time.
 You went on Fin Fin, the diet pill. You lost 30 pounds in two weeks. Yeah. You then had kidney failure. Your hair fell out. You discovered the kidney failure when you urinated blood in your trailer. It was horrible.
 And what was the reaction when you had that? Did they feel bad or sorry? No, they just had to still continue to try to figure out, don't get the weight back though. They were like, that's fine, but just don't get the weight. Don't get the weight back. Like it was more terrifying that I was going to have to stop dieting than it was that I was sick. I mean, it was rough. But I also know that –
 Ultimately, they were just trying to give us the best chance that we could, and that was all they knew they could do. That's all they know from their focus groups and from their understanding of what television is. This is what it means. Are you a people pleaser? Yeah, for sure. I think so. Do you allow people to take advantage of you consistently? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. When do you put your foot down with people? I think it's—
 really been a lifelong struggle. Like it's been a, now I understand how to. I almost overreact now to the point of like reacting to past trauma from, you know, the way that I am. And I really cut people off really quickly if I need to, even before I need to. So it almost keeps me more isolated, which actually is preferable.
 Interesting. So the show on ABC was called All American Girl and it was trailblazing, but it didn't last. It was canceled. After how long? A year. We did 22 episodes. That sent you into somewhat of an addiction spiral. Yes. Did it not? Yes. But it was already kind of brewing. And that's my main problem in life is that I've always had an addictive personality. And, you know, all the things that have happened to me, I'm my worst enemy. How so?
 Well, if you have an addictive personality, you just set yourself up completely to fail. So you're always going for that addiction. You know, for me, whether it was food or alcohol or drugs, whatever it was, it's going to be destructive. And so I would keep going back to it until I really got everything contained, which for now it's been a decade, which is really good. I hope to keep it that way. But you never know.
 Was therapy what helped you and stopped some of this? Yeah, therapy and hospitalization. I mean, I've been not incarcerated but institutionalized. How many times? Yeah.
 Once, but for a year and nine months. So that's a good amount of time. Against your will or willingly? Totally willingly. But probably if I had asked to leave, I would not have been let out. So I don't think it was against my will, but I wasn't excited about going in the beginning. And it was a year and how long? A year and nine months. Tell me about what happened in there.
 Well, I got to hang out with a lot of really famous people who died. Awful. People with everything. People with famous legacies. I mean, money and talent and beauty and youth. Couldn't handle drugs. Couldn't handle soriety. So how did it help you? I just was like...
 determined to keep on living, you know, and trying to help people. Like there was a guy that in the room next to me and I, um, he was, uh, bedridden. And so I would go in and I would empty his urine pitcher every day just to help him out. Like just to, so like little things like I'm being useful here. So I'm just going to like help you feel like you can be in your room and now have this big
 thing of pee here. So I would just do stuff like that. And I just kept living. It was really sobering to see people take all of this, um, wonderful therapy and treatment, um, and just kind of throw it away. So I was just determined to keep going. Okay. But how did you apply that and make it work? I mean, you're at this world-class facility, right? And it ended up working. Yeah. When did it first take?
 I think it just took pretty much right away just being there. Like also it cost so much money that I'm like, I'm going to get everything out of this that I'm paying for because I had to pay for it. So I was like, I'm definitely going to actually do this. Tell me about some of the takeaways that you locked in on like, oh, that speaks to my soul. Okay, I'm going to do this differently now.
 Mostly it was you just need to wear it like a loose garment, like wear sobriety like a loose garment. Like don't be straight jacketed into it. Don't feel like so bound up into it. Just wear it like.
 I don't know, like a cashmere sweater, like around your shoulders, like in the 1980s, that kind of thing. Like just kind of be free and easy with it. And that sort of, I think, was the most helpful thing. As opposed to being rigid with it. Being rigid, being totally like perfectionistic, being totally like... So does that mean you sometimes allow yourself to splurge a bit? No, it's not like that. It's more...
 Like if I want to stay up late, I can stay up late. If I want to have some coffee, I'll lay it at night. I can drink it. Like it's not like – those are to me bending the rules. I mean I would never like do drugs or drink alcohol. But then other than that, everything is sort of whatever.
 So what I'm hearing you say is the addiction issues that you worked through when you were institutionalized didn't just deal with drugs and alcohol. They dealed with impulses surrounding everyday life. Yeah. Just behavior in general. I see. Impulsivity, like overspending, over-sexualizing, over-thinking, over-work, all those things. When that pops up, when you feel the urge to over-sexualize something, how do you walk it back?
 Well, I realize it, and then you sort of rely on your own maturity. Like, it's like, oh, this is, like, ridiculous. Like, why would we sort of think about that like that, you know? But in the past, you would have never had that voice that said, oh, this is ridiculous. Yeah. Right? So that's the win. Yeah, now you have a voice of reason. Okay, so the win is the voice of reason. Yeah. I see. I think so. I see. You have said that comedy is a shield. Mm-hmm.
 And a sword. When you have an audience, nothing bad can happen to you because you have too many witnesses. Yes. Well, I think it's true. I think that comedy is like a social contract too so that people have to listen to what you have to say. And they have to react positively. Mostly they do, which is good. But I rely on that social construct of it. We had an agreement when we came in this room that I'm going to talk and you're going to listen. And that's the best. I love having that control. And then because of that –
 Control and the contract. I want to deliver on my contract. Am I a good listener? Yes. Would you be funny if you hadn't experienced the trauma you had in your life? I don't know. Maybe. Would you be in comedy if you hadn't experienced the trauma you did? Maybe. I think that most comedians...
 are good at comedy because they're good at coping. Comedy is a coping mechanism. Humor is a coping mechanism. It's the unexpected way of thinking that gives you hope, that makes you take in an unexpected breath, which is laughter. So it assures you another moment of life. So I think, yeah, it's unexpected thinking that brings you to hope.
 You were booed off of a stage drunk in Monroe in front of 100, 800 people. This would otherwise never stand out to me, but I'm from Louisiana. So when I read that, I thought, oh, interesting. Do you remember that day? Yes, yes, yes. I wasn't drunk. It was weird. It was –
 It was part of the Def Jam comedy tour, but the comics were white, so it was also weird because usually the Def Jam comics are black. So it was a very strange show. And the problem with me is when I'm bombing, I don't take the hint to just get off. I get mad, and then I start to punish people.
 for not liking me. So my thing about it is if you don't like me, I'm going to make you hate me. I'm going to make you hate the fact that you're here. I'm going to make you so unhappy. And so that's what happened. So I wasn't drunk. I did get drunk after.
 which was fun. But it was really, really crazy. So it showed me that I am really a bad sport when it comes to like audience interaction when I'm not doing well. It doesn't happen very often. Rarely a handful of times in my whole life, but yeah.
 Do you still, when that does happen, punish the audience like that? Now I'm a little more gracious about it. Now I'm like, oh, if it's not going well, I'll just sort of bow out gracefully. I've learned. It's not safe to do that. People get really mad. What has age brought you that you enjoy?
 Oh, it just brought me a lot of peace and calmness. And I just really enjoy my life in general. Like I have a good time, whatever I'm doing. And so I think that's what's really special. Like I love my home life and I think the quieter, the better. I love going to bed super early, which is hard in comedy because you have to stay up late to do comedy. How early? Super early.
 Like seven. Okay. That's pretty early. I like it. You got an Emmy nomination for playing Kim Jong Il on 30 Rock. And then there were eight standup specials across 35 years that you've done. What's been your favorite work from your past?
 I really love my special, I'm the one that I want. I shot it on film on short ends, which is back in the day, you would buy reels of film that hadn't been used up and put them all together to make reels. So I was really, it was a different time. So I was really proud that we got to do that. And I brought it to film festivals and we showed it in theaters and it was really special. You're going back out on tour. Yes. Where are you going to be?
 Next week, I'll be in Minneapolis and Chicago, going to Hawaii after that, which is great. You still love being on the road? Yeah, yeah. Touring? Yeah. I have a really good time. What makes you laugh? I think absurdity. I think somebody who thinks really uniquely. I love a comedian named Chris Fleming. He's really phenomenal. He's somebody that I have...
 forced him to go on stage, you know, like many, many years ago when he was just starting, I would just bring him along to shows of mine and just throw him up in front of the audience. Like you have to see this guy. And,
 I just love him. He has an HBO special that's really popular right now. It's super exciting. I love Otsuko Okotsuka. She's a good friend of mine. She's somebody that I've seen from the very beginning and just supported all this time. She's absurd and bizarre and beautiful and fashion and all these things that I just love. I'm not funny. What do you say to unfunny people about how they can be funny?
 It's more about observing. So I think what is funny is when people just watch. So the more observant that you can be about things, the more humor there is to see. That's mostly. It's just watching. Do you remember the first audience or person you performed in front of that was the first time you thought, shit, I'm funny?
 Like, I got a rise out of these people. They laughed. Like, you remember where that was or when that was? I don't know. I mean, it was really early on. I think just...
 kind of the awareness of people around you and being able to sort of see. At the beginning of my career, I was so scared of people, really, and so scared to look at people because everybody was just an adult. I was still like 14, 15. So I was really just intimidated by the fact that they were just grown adults around. So it was scary to even focus on them. But just hearing the noise, hearing the laughter, it's powerful. What are you still afraid of today?
 I think I'm afraid of not being able to think of new things, to think differently. I think I'm afraid of losing the ability to think in a unique way. And so how do you stave that off?
 Usually when I wake up every day, I write a joke. It doesn't have to be funny. It can just be an observation of something. I try to write something. So today's was purge makes plenty. So it's like if you get rid of something, you'll get something back. So every day there's something like that, like a thought like that, that precedes any other thought. That's what I try to open my days with.
 And from that thought, you will go through the world watching, listening, and then find something to build a joke around that thought. Aha. I got it. How much time do you spend with your parents? Less and less lately. It's harder and harder. But I think it's –
 really great that they're in assisted living because they're having so much fun. My dad is really popular because he doesn't have a walking device. He doesn't have a wheelchair or a walker. He's the only person in the building that walks unassisted. So he's like George Clooney walking around with all his own teeth. So he's very popular. And so they're in a place where I feel like, oh,
 They're actually doing great. My mom asked – she had given me all of her jewelry and she asked for it back because she wants to wear it in the dining room. So they go down and have dinner with everyone every day. So it's really kind of nice. You are funny. Are you happy? I'm really happy. I believe it when you say it. Yeah. I believe it. Yeah. Were you always happy? No. No.
 And I kind of thought that I would never – that wasn't my life, that it wasn't possible to be happy. But it actually takes very little to be happy. If you sort of arrange your life in the right way, it's quite effortless. What is the rest of your life? What would you like for it to look like?
 Oh, I would love to be the judge in something. I think it would be really good. I'm like, you know what I mean? Like very like Alfre Woodard, like judge. Like I just feel like that's next. I've gotten to the point where I'm like playing a lot of therapists. Okay. So I think judge is next. Okay. A judge. But on the personal side, what is on the growth horizon for you? I don't know. I'm going to clean out my closet. Okay.
 Come help with mine too. I know. I need to get rid of so many eras of weird fashion. That's next. That's tomorrow. That's tomorrow. Well, thank you for today. Thank you. This has been a joy. Thank you. Thank you, Margaret Cho. I'm Margaret Cho, and the person who believed in me is Mr. Jackson.