086 - Experiments that changed fire science pt. 4 - Runnehamar tunnel with Haukur Ingason and Anders Lönnermark

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hello everybody welcome through the Fire Science Show.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We're here again in the series of experiments that have changed the fire science.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I wonder if named Runehammar rings a bell for you.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If you are someone dealing with a road tunnels or.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Fire safety of tunnels in general.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I guess that's the case.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If not, Please, let me take you to the world of all the biggest and most important tunnel experiments done in the last 20, 30 years.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Experiments that have really changed the way how we design road tunnels.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It has been a very bold series of research done in a very specific state in Europe.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>After a series of really large fires with many fatalities these.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>As I've read in some of the papers.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, European citizens have lost the trust in the European tunneling network.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And many, many advances have been done.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>At that point.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And one of these advances has been done.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>by SP in Sweden now known as RISE my group of professor Haukur Ingason and, uh, an important figure in that also Dr Anders Lonnermark, mark.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Both of them are my today's guests.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And they take me to their times at Runehammar, explain how the research has been done.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>What were the challenges?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>What were the findings?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>What were their assumptions and how well they were met?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Actually, it's pretty fantastic.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I'm going to spoil it a little bit.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>They've Focused on the finding one.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Answer on what is the heat release rate of a fire?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>In a tunnel build the whole experiment.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Around that.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Done.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Everything to figure out that number reliably.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And for multiple scenarios, figure out what's the worst outcome.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And once they are achieved at they've implemented that.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Or the society implemented their findings.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Into standards codes.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Really what they found out during this experiments.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We are.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Literally using an every single tunnel.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That's the type of impact.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I think we should be seeking in fire science, you know, making one really good experiment.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That truly makes an impact.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That truly changes something we can call the paradigm of the, of the fire safety design.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, and that's what these guys achieved, and this is why.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>They are here now to talk about an experiment that really changed fire science.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>In a world where.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>More publications are coming every year than ever before in the world where vague research is published for impact factors and citations.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, this type of research that truly makes an impact and changes from the discipline is something we should seek.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And I'm super happy to talk about it with Haukur and Anders.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So, yeah, that that's absolutely enough.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Let's spin the intro and jump into the episodes.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>This podcast is produced in partnership with OFR Consultants and multi award-winning UK base, fire and risk consultancy.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>OFR are supporting a number of PhDs at the universities around the UK, including Edinburgh in Sheffield.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And the one I would like to highlight today is the opportunity at the Fire Safety Engineering Group at the University of Greenwich.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>This PhD is about how can we harness the power of BIM in our engineering practice?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You may recall episode 62 about BIM.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It seems like a promising, useful tool.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And then the development in that is much welcomed for the fire community.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>The PhD will use computational tools like fire models and evacuation tools.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And will examine the data exchange requirements for them to be used together in one digital workflow, employing BIM, if you would like to participate in this fully funded PhD bursary.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Please check the episode, show notes.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You can find there more information, link to the application.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Important thing is the date it's closing on 28th, February, 2023.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So yeah, please check it out.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And now back to the episode

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello everybody.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Welcome to Fire Science Show, another episode on experiments that have changed the fire science.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And boy, this, this one really did.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>today I have with me Professor Haukur Ingason from RISE.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello Haukur

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<v Haukur Ingason>to meet

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and, uh, Dr.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Andres Lonnermark from from Rice, who also participated.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello Andes.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Great to

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<v Anders Lonnermark>Good morning.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>Thank you.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And you guys, uh, you've set a fire 20 years ago and it seems to be still burning You have done, the famous Runehammar tunnel experiments, or you were part of the larger consortium that that has done these experiments.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I, I know that it changed the fire science because I'm dealing with tunnel fire safety and tunnel engineering.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And this research just keeps popping back because it's one of the best data points we have collected as, fire engineers.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>engineers.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I really wonder really the history of this program, what, what happened and how it happened.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So let's, let's discuss why the experiments were needed, why why have went to an old tunnel in Norway to do this massive experiments, and, what were the, like the chain of events that that led to this program.

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<v Haukur Ingason>Yeah, I can start.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And thank you for this nice introduction and uh, it's really, it was in the late nineties, early 2000 when we had all these, uh, large fires incidents and, and uh, in 96 we had the Euro tunnel and we had then Mount Blanc Tower and Saint Gothard all the, in the very sequential, period.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And, and I was thinking about all these fires involved HGV so heavy good vehicles, semi trailers with ordinary, hazardous goods.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And, and we, uh, knew from experience of doing fire research on warehouses with ordinary commodities.

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<v Haukur Ingason>That's, of course these fires can be quite large.

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<v Haukur Ingason>but at that time people were talking about 20, 30 megawatt design fires.

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<v Haukur Ingason>uh, I felt, it must be higher than that.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And, and, and already in 93 there was a test in, in the Eureka program, which was also done in Norway, where they measured, for the heat release rate up to 120 megawatt in ordinary, uh, semitrailer with a ordinary goods of, uh, furnitures of two tons.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And, and that also somehow confirmed for me that need to do something to, show people that 20, 30 megawatt as a design fire for a truck, uh, a single burning truck was maybe too low.

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<v Haukur Ingason>So, and, and these, uh, fires were, very much in discussion, of course.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And, and it was not single.

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<v Haukur Ingason>vehicle.

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<v Haukur Ingason>It was like multiple, it was 10 15 Hmm.

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<v Haukur Ingason>cvs in the world.

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<v Haukur Ingason>So, uh, estimation showed me clearly that this was, uh, something here wrong here.

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<v Haukur Ingason>So we were, in contact with Chris   at SINTEF uh, Uh, in Trondheim since the Fire Research Lab.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And he told me about a, a large scale tunnel in   and, and thought, oh, that's interesting.

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<v Haukur Ingason>We, maybe we should do a fire test there.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And somehow that was the starting point.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And, and then I went to my manager and said, Hey, I want to do a full scale test in, in Runehammar tunnel.

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<v Haukur Ingason>Is, is it okay?

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<v Haukur Ingason>Yeah, as long as you find some money.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And we started to find money in Sweden and we got actually up to 350,000 Euros, if I recall.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And, uh, and my manager said, uh, okay, go ahead, but you need to find some partners because you have not a complete budget for this.

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<v Haukur Ingason>I think you need at half a million.

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<v Haukur Ingason>So So I was at that part in, involved in project, project called Upton.

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<v Haukur Ingason>and I, I asked the management, can we use our part in the, uh, UPTUN project to, to somehow these tests?

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<v Haukur Ingason>And, and there he said, yes, of course.

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<v Haukur Ingason>That's interesting.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And you should also add some partners here also.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And, uh, we felt okay, TNO in Netherland, that's excellent partner.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And, and also SINTEF in Norway were partners, so they were also part of Upton.

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<v Haukur Ingason>So, so that's how we linked into the Upton project and were able to actually perform this in 2003.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hmm.

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<v Haukur Ingason>that time there was a young researcher called Andes Lonnermark he was, uh, I felt I could not do this alone, and we needed help.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And that's how, uh, Anders became involved and, and really, did a major impact on, on the performance of this test.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>how did, uh, the tunnel.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Fire safety field feel after all this because it, it was like an age of really huge fires in tunnels, like one after another, like Gothard Channel uh, Mount Blanc.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There was kings Cross, uh, fire, not, uh, not the road tunnel, but also involving, uh, underground Infrastructure.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>in, in the book after the, the proceedings of the symposium.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>After the, the experiments, there's a uh, that says that, that people lost faith in transport network.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Did you also feel this political, necessity to perform this test, or was it just purely engineering driven, we need a new design fire.

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<v Haukur Ingason>I, I can respond to that because I, I recall I was purely driven by the, the knowledge of, I knew there was something wrong in the numbers, uh, and also the science, because we had been doing a lot of model scale testing and we could see this really clearly.

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<v Haukur Ingason>And that was really the, the background to do this.

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<v Haukur Ingason>Uh, we wanted to some kind of valid validation in full scale test.

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<v Haukur Ingason>So it was more science driven, curious, driven than any political, uh, question what, uh, at least concerning

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Fantastic.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, uh, you've entered the research, was the question of heat release rate, the main, uh, research cap that you had or were there like immediately things, okay, we also need this and this and this, or, or you were just focused on the size of the fire?

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<v Anders Lonnermark>yes.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>the heater side was, was the main driving force that, that, uh, in most standards they say, uh, this 20 to 30 megawatts is the maximum.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>and Ker very confirmed, believed that, that, this was much higher.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>was much uh, this was of course the starting point from my participation of this research.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>but we also looked at other things, uh, like, uh, the high temperatures and, risk for fire spread, and, uh, also the possibilities for, the fire fighters to fight such large such large But all came back to like to uh, gap between, uh, the thought of the maximum hit rate and what we thought was the, the actual case.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>And then of course, a scientific part of this was on how to measure this in a, in a correct way in a tunnel with such a large, uh, fire large and, uh, all the practical things about just the measuring the heat, measuring rates.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>And, challenge was also of course, that we wanted to have have levels of the heat we had looked different transport companies here in, in Sweden and what kind of, uh, mixtures of materials, we can see there, and, uh, was special then mixtures of, uh, celulosic material and plastics, material uh, that we find out that now that approximately 20%.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>20% was quite common.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>quite common.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>then we tried to, arrange, forecast with different types of those, those that's the same percentage, but different type of, of mixtures and mixtures So reached, uh, different levels of maximum levels of heat release a lot based on how the, these were, sort of ordered, and, uh, set the set how the setup looked like.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>Then of course, very big driving force was that we thought, okay, we are convinced that, that this is the case.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>The maximum is much higher than what the standard said, but we have to show it.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>Uh, we really have to show it with an experiments.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>Modeling will not be enough here.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>We need to show this in a real experiment.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I, I hear that very often in the fire science that something is obvious, but, uh, please give me a citation for that.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And it doesn't exist.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There is, uh, there's many obvious statements that, that, uh, require, experimental proof, because sometimes when you go into, arguments with arguments with or, or some, you know, deciding parties, parties, for them, uh, your say as a scientist is, is insufficient.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They want, uh, hardcore proof.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And new really solid proof was, uh, obtained.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>date.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I've, uh, read that, uh, the compositions of your fuels, were, were, were four tests done.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, three of them had some sort of wood pettes in different numbers.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So the first one was mainly wood, pettes, and some, plastic materials.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The second was, uh, half, pallets, half mattresses The third was like grill.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Furniture, I guess it was Swedish Furniture

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<v Anders Lonnermark>Yes,

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that's correct.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that's, that's my, that's my guess.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and uh, the fourth one was, uh, mainly, mainly.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>plastic cups.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, so that's, that's a very interesting, interesting choice of materials.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You said that it, it was driven by the urge to have different heat release rates.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But, uh, I wonder you were venturing literally into unknown.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So how were you designing this, fuel sources this experiments and, and how, how did you even choose the, the number of four.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>Well, as I said, we want to have different levels, but we also wanted them to burn, uh, a bit differently.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>uh, and uh, our main thought was that, okay, wooden, wooden pallets is we have the knowledge of wooden pallets.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>They're, pallets they an actual case that you see that in transportation, even if these were, were piles of, pi pallets.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>but we also thought we need to have.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>also needed plastics and what is better than to, to arrange plastic pallets that have the same sizes.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>And we just mixed in, mix them in, in the correct, ratio.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>So that was the starting point.

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<v Anders Lonnermark>Uh, and then we wanted something to burn a little bit differently, and we also saw that okay, mattresses, it, it's a different type of, of different with this being soft and it has also a different it chemical composition.

00:14:44.999 --> 00:14:56.145
<v Anders Lonnermark>chemical so the reason to have these pieces of mattresses with and the same size of the, Wooden pallets, uh, then was case of stability in that case, that, they're not as solid.

00:14:56.365 --> 00:15:04.452
<v Anders Lonnermark>not as therefore we had to arrange some practical things around this setup that we use for all the tests with some nets that it does didn't down.

00:15:04.552 --> 00:15:12.566
<v Anders Lonnermark>But, but the main thing that was to have these, uh, different types of material, uh, types of that we thought was quite common and useful for us.

00:15:12.995 --> 00:15:17.613
<v Anders Lonnermark>for the plastic cups is actually actually standardized goods that we use for other testing.

00:15:17.773 --> 00:15:25.568
<v Anders Lonnermark>we use So we had knowledge of how they burn, of uh, what kind of, uh, Smoke it produces, uh, about the heat rate and all things.

00:15:25.568 --> 00:15:27.619
<v Anders Lonnermark>So that was also then also.

00:15:27.678 --> 00:15:30.448
<v Anders Lonnermark>a guess that, that, that would be very suitable.

00:15:30.701 --> 00:15:44.546
<v Anders Lonnermark>then we came up with a, we would be very nice to have something that was real commodities real uh, therefore we had this test with furniture and we tried them to have, as good this good as possible with the similarities to others.

00:15:44.546 --> 00:15:46.688
<v Anders Lonnermark>But of course, this was different.

00:15:46.688 --> 00:15:55.469
<v Anders Lonnermark>In some cases, there was very solid There was very with, with, pieces of, furniture and while others were more, s and Hmm.

00:15:55.568 --> 00:15:57.528
<v Anders Lonnermark>open, so to say, in their structure.

00:15:57.619 --> 00:16:00.009
<v Anders Lonnermark>So, but, uh, it turned out very well, I think.

00:16:00.231 --> 00:16:06.969
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Because of your famous pictures, uh, of, of this pettes, uh, burning in, in this massive configuration.

00:16:07.349 --> 00:16:13.769
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Now, whenever I see a, a truck with Pettes on the road, I'm, I'm immediately urged to take a picture of it.

00:16:13.769 --> 00:16:20.769
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, uh, when switched somewhere, I've seen three in my life, uh, already on Pia roads, It's like a unicorn.

00:16:20.769 --> 00:16:27.208
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I guess the drivers are always confused why someone is taking a picture of this, this seemingly uninteresting truck.

00:16:27.403 --> 00:16:27.764
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>topic.

00:16:27.764 --> 00:16:43.818
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Haukur you've mentioned, uh, your experience with ordinary hazards and, as, ordinary as you were saying that, uh, it, it clicked in my, in my mind, I, mind, I, remember your papers from like 95 where you were doing like, first, uh, numerical simulations of natural ventilators.

00:16:44.509 --> 00:16:52.019
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So it, it's fascinating how person jumps from home, one field to another, to, to completely change that another field with the experience from the previous one.

00:16:52.350 --> 00:17:11.098
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Um, wondered at that time, 2003 or even before when you were planning, you've put, the big source of fire that this, this plaz, this, all the materials that Andres was, talking, talking, but, you, had to, Have an, and some sort of idea how the fire will develop and it was a forced flow experiment.

00:17:12.145 --> 00:17:26.613
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>was at that point, any expertise in how this forced flow will change the fire the Like what were you expecting, uh, from this fires and wires and it go like, uh, in a different way than, than than expected?

00:17:27.252 --> 00:17:40.758
<v Haukur Ingason>Yeah, uh, recall when you are saying it, of course, these new numerical simulation of fire course, the, that, that's a part of my, but PhD is on the rock storage phase, Hmm.

00:17:40.903 --> 00:17:42.742
<v Haukur Ingason>a vertical piled commodities.

00:17:42.877 --> 00:17:43.038
<v Haukur Ingason>Hmm.

00:17:43.762 --> 00:17:51.222
<v Haukur Ingason>and by accident really, I came into the tunnel world and I, and I, I just saw the commodities on, on the trailers.

00:17:51.222 --> 00:17:55.425
<v Haukur Ingason>That was just a, a horizontal commodity, in a blowing situation.

00:17:55.425 --> 00:17:57.435
<v Haukur Ingason>You know, it is like verticals.

00:17:57.435 --> 00:18:02.036
<v Haukur Ingason>Fire spread is governed by the, the aided flow of, of flames and so on.

00:18:02.296 --> 00:18:06.915
<v Haukur Ingason>But in tunnels, when you have forced ventilation, you create a situation.

00:18:07.099 --> 00:18:12.084
<v Haukur Ingason>You know, the flames follow the, the commodity like in a, in a, where it's fire.

00:18:12.084 --> 00:18:13.564
<v Haukur Ingason>So there's a similarities there.

00:18:13.903 --> 00:18:23.111
<v Haukur Ingason>But, uh, anyway, that experience, of course, I took with me and I, I knew what parameters were governing the fire spread and, and the rate of heat release rate.

00:18:23.111 --> 00:18:29.711
<v Haukur Ingason>But, uh, I had also been doing a lot of model skill testing, both in, in warehouse phase and.

00:18:30.165 --> 00:18:50.417
<v Haukur Ingason>Took that into the tunnel world and, actually, uh, these tests in, in tests are really based on model scale tests in the design that we, we did, test in 2002 in model scale to evaluate what and how large fires, what situation they create in Hmm.

00:18:50.542 --> 00:18:57.553
<v Haukur Ingason>the, the, back layering critical velocity, radiation temperatures, smoke spread and so on, and all that.

00:18:57.803 --> 00:19:04.113
<v Haukur Ingason>We took that with us to the Runehammar experience, how to measure the heat related rates, what techniques should we use and so on.

00:19:04.113 --> 00:19:25.019
<v Haukur Ingason>We, we had experienced that from model scale test, and then we had of course, what's really made the case for us in, in the Runehammar and, and Anders was highly involved with planning the intermediate size, file, laboratory test where we piled up when we had decided after the survey, that's the type of goods we will use.

00:19:25.028 --> 00:19:30.086
<v Haukur Ingason>We piled it up and took one row of the, commodity in the track.

00:19:30.086 --> 00:19:33.405
<v Haukur Ingason>It was like 10 rows of, uh, piles.

00:19:33.546 --> 00:19:38.979
<v Haukur Ingason>And, we put that under our hood, uh, fire, large fire collector, and measured.

00:19:38.999 --> 00:19:39.239
<v Haukur Ingason>the heat

00:19:39.239 --> 00:19:39.398
<v Haukur Ingasson>release

00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:39.719
<v Haukur Ingason>rate.

00:19:39.719 --> 00:19:45.439
<v Haukur Ingason>And from that we were able to predict what should be the, uh, heat releasr list rates.

00:19:45.439 --> 00:19:48.919
<v Haukur Ingason>And, and that was really a very accurate prediction.

00:19:48.919 --> 00:19:55.532
<v Haukur Ingason>And, and that is presented in the conference after the fire tests in, in 2003, that prediction.

00:19:55.532 --> 00:20:11.853
<v Haukur Ingason>And, and, uh, and this was, uh, Part of that and, and what was really, amazing how well we predicted it in advance, the heat release  rates, because o of this experience with model scale test, intermediate size test, and then finally the, the full scale test.

00:20:12.002 --> 00:20:18.772
<v Haukur Ingason>I think this is a very important parameter that you prepare large scale test in such a way.

00:20:19.361 --> 00:20:26.238
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I guess, uh, the budget was very large, so you really want to get to the most bank of your Euro you can.

00:20:26.367 --> 00:20:31.374
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, if you, if you can burn it one just a few times, you don't want to, go unprepared.

00:20:32.022 --> 00:20:37.428
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>from your memory what, what was the number one, like technical challenge related to the program?

00:20:37.428 --> 00:20:40.403
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like what, made you sleep the least least

00:20:41.133 --> 00:20:49.637
<v Haukur Ingason>Yeah, I mean, we had a lot of, uh, discussion with different people and, but number one, I would say the protection of the production?

00:20:49.782 --> 00:20:54.942
<v Haukur Ingason>a, a, abandoned uh, tunnel with no protection at all.

00:20:54.942 --> 00:20:56.303
<v Haukur Ingason>It was just a rock tunnel.

00:20:56.534 --> 00:20:56.653
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hmm.

00:20:56.949 --> 00:21:13.000
<v Haukur Ingason>And, uh, thankfully through the, uh, Upton Project, we were able to get in contact with, Promat International, another Netherland company, uh, called Gerco who, who helped us to fit the, Proma boards into the, Tunnel because Hmm.

00:21:13.165 --> 00:21:15.486
<v Haukur Ingason>boards are not usually used in this type of tunnel.

00:21:15.486 --> 00:21:19.118
<v Haukur Ingason>But we found a solution they sponsored this really.

00:21:19.209 --> 00:21:31.219
<v Haukur Ingason>So Oh were luckily to, to get that, uh, help and, and, for, uh, the test was really, the only possibility to do because we would never, uh, be able to do that.

00:21:31.219 --> 00:21:40.098
<v Haukur Ingason>And we were actually in, in contact with the  Norwegian Road Administration who us the tunnel in, in sense, they didn't require any.

00:21:40.212 --> 00:21:42.492
<v Haukur Ingason>payment for being there.

00:21:42.492 --> 00:21:50.173
<v Haukur Ingason>They, they gave us the opportunity to do this and, and all the environmental, uh, parts of it was, uh, dealt with with them.

00:21:50.663 --> 00:21:53.333
<v Haukur Ingason>So we are very thankful for, for that as well.

00:21:53.333 --> 00:22:05.252
<v Haukur Ingason>But the, the most challenging was the protection, also measuring the heater list rate, uh, where we, and we had to, there was no fans in, in the tunnel, so we had to get a mobile fans.

00:22:05.353 --> 00:22:05.823
<v Haukur Ingason>Uh huh.

00:22:05.972 --> 00:22:17.855
<v Haukur Ingason>we got a German company called  BIG we had two large industrial, mobile fans for industrial, uh, buildings, and they worked perfectly.

00:22:17.855 --> 00:22:20.816
<v Haukur Ingason>They could give us over three meters per seconds in the tunnel.

00:22:20.826 --> 00:22:22.935
<v Haukur Ingason>So we were thankful for that.

00:22:23.655 --> 00:22:25.655
<v Haukur Ingason>You, sorry, there was nothing there.

00:22:25.766 --> 00:22:33.776
<v Haukur Ingason>I mean, it a pure, pure, and, uh, Andes can tell you more about that, uh, because, uh, they really, it was, was a hard

00:22:34.358 --> 00:22:36.348
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>so you were not allowed to collapse the tunnel.

00:22:36.755 --> 00:22:41.469
<v Haukur Ingason>We were not allowed to collapse the tunnel, and we made agreement with the Norwegian Okay.

00:22:41.548 --> 00:22:45.068
<v Haukur Ingason>that, uh, we should pay for all, uh, repairs.

00:22:45.532 --> 00:22:51.432
<v Haukur Ingason>But thanks to this protection, we were somehow, uh, able to, to solve all that.

00:22:51.432 --> 00:22:58.232
<v Haukur Ingason>But there, there were of course, uh, parts which fall down because we didn't, we only protected like 75 meters.

00:22:58.729 --> 00:23:00.169
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that, that's a stressful environment.

00:23:00.598 --> 00:23:04.848
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Anders you want to add something that, maybe, maybe tell me the secret, how you've measured the hit release rate

00:23:05.071 --> 00:23:20.481
<v Anders Lonnermark>Yes, if we start with that, about the heat risk rate, which was the main challenge, and what we have learned a lot of we from, uh, also after that, uh, is that we measured from the consumption of, uh, oxygen in the same way as we do in, way.

00:23:20.715 --> 00:23:22.195
<v Anders Lonnermark>fire telemetry.

00:23:22.276 --> 00:23:23.036
<v Anders Lonnermark>elementary.

00:23:23.036 --> 00:23:26.276
<v Anders Lonnermark>made the entire tunnel into Cal large kilometer.

00:23:26.638 --> 00:23:42.665
<v Anders Lonnermark>but we wanted also the, the, smoke, uh, fire, gases to be well mixed, so that therefore we put this, uh, what called measurement station, like, very close to the, one of the exits, uh, 450 meters of the fire.

00:23:43.365 --> 00:24:00.731
<v Anders Lonnermark>And there we had a large station of temperature measurements, uh, oxygen and co common monoxide, corona dioxide, measurements and, yeah, measure in, in a similar way as we do in in fire laboratory, but used, as I said, the tunnel tube as a large, calorimeter

00:24:00.894 --> 00:24:12.317
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>so, so far away from the, from the fire, you were measuring the velocity, oxygen concentration, and from that you were, by oxygen depletion, you were, um, estimating the, the, the heat release rate, the oxygen consumption.

00:24:12.488 --> 00:24:13.157
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Perfect.

00:24:13.248 --> 00:24:14.597
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So it's, it's convenient.

00:24:14.597 --> 00:24:22.500
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The tunnels are tunnels one directional, uh, pipes, and, uh, if it's in the rock, it's quite, uh, tight that definitely helps.

00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:25.381
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, uh, how did you handle the upstream?

00:24:25.381 --> 00:24:29.463
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Because, uh, you probably have not known that.

00:24:29.673 --> 00:24:49.278
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, well, like you mentioned that you did scale research, but you could have expected some back layering maybe, or you were perfectly sure that there will be no backlayering there will be only one directional movement of because that would kind of make the diff measurements quite difficult to, to, to get, if, if you had some smoke going front upstream.

00:24:49.603 --> 00:25:03.105
<v Anders Lonnermark>Now our, our aim was to, to not have, uh, ba have, of course, we studied, the part for the, as I said, with fine rescue services and their, and then possibilities to extinguish fire was one part of the research.

00:25:03.155 --> 00:25:15.709
<v Anders Lonnermark>So we, we had temperature measurements temperature measurements to see if we had, uh, any backlayering but we, our aim was to have aim in the, the order of three meters per second, ventilation in the tunnel.

00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:24.219
<v Anders Lonnermark>Uh, and we had to had help, uh, to get two large get fans, um, one at the entrance and one inside the tunnel.

00:25:24.219 --> 00:25:25.588
<v Anders Lonnermark>Two, two, uh, ranges.

00:25:25.588 --> 00:25:33.348
<v Anders Lonnermark>But what we learned was that, uh, the setup itself and itself fire when it got so big, was a big resistance.

00:25:33.598 --> 00:25:39.749
<v Anders Lonnermark>Uh, so I, I, in reality, we ended up with ended bit more than two meters per second.

00:25:39.749 --> 00:25:48.663
<v Anders Lonnermark>two meters And, uh, therefore we also had, quite significant, back layering, during these tests, especially the first one, which was the last largest one.

00:25:48.663 --> 00:25:49.563
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The largest, eh,

00:25:49.590 --> 00:25:52.330
<v Haukur Ingason>I, I think, it was a little bit a surprise.

00:25:52.461 --> 00:26:08.310
<v Haukur Ingason>Uh, what I recall that, uh, we had this huge resistance, both us and this mentioned the, the fire, but also we had, beyond the, the fire, there was a downhill, uh, I think the, the slope was somewhere between one to 3% or something like that.

00:26:08.651 --> 00:26:14.568
<v Haukur Ingason>And, Downhill, created a buoyancy resistance to the, to the, the fans.

00:26:14.568 --> 00:26:23.608
<v Haukur Ingason>So the fans suddenly started to sound a little bit different, we noticed our, our velocity measurement are going down.

00:26:23.608 --> 00:26:33.808
<v Haukur Ingason>And on the, then suddenly in the middle of everything, there was, uh, you know, the, the re at 130 megawatt or something, we started to see some kind of pulsations.

00:26:34.159 --> 00:26:35.489
<v Haukur Ingason>That was a surprise.

00:26:35.489 --> 00:26:36.328
<v Haukur Ingason>We didn't know that.

00:26:36.328 --> 00:26:39.249
<v Haukur Ingason>And, uh, I mean, there was a lot of thing happening there.

00:26:39.249 --> 00:26:46.528
<v Haukur Ingason>And I, I recall once, uh, I think it was in the first test, I went into the portal on the upstream side because we had no smoke there.

00:26:46.528 --> 00:26:49.689
<v Haukur Ingason>And I, I wanted to see, can I see something?

00:26:49.689 --> 00:26:51.284
<v Haukur Ingason>Because nobody was Hmm.

00:26:51.328 --> 00:26:51.528
<v Haukur Ingason>tunnel.

00:26:51.528 --> 00:26:52.334
<v Haukur Ingason>Of Yeah.

00:26:52.489 --> 00:26:54.608
<v Haukur Ingason>cameras and, and all the measurements.

00:26:54.608 --> 00:26:55.648
<v Haukur Ingason>Nobody was in there.

00:26:55.989 --> 00:26:59.449
<v Haukur Ingason>And I, I didn't see so much, uh, of the fire.

00:26:59.469 --> 00:27:09.544
<v Haukur Ingason>But when I was coming out of it, there, there's a filming sequence of me coming out and I see so very, I, I'm like grabbing my head with my hands.

00:27:09.544 --> 00:27:17.223
<v Haukur Ingason>And, and I, I, I'm totally devastated because I started to feel these pulsations, you know what, what's this?

00:27:17.693 --> 00:27:20.503
<v Haukur Ingason>I felt, are we losing the control of the fires?

00:27:20.713 --> 00:27:21.703
<v Haukur Ingason>Uh, what's happening?

00:27:21.703 --> 00:27:28.127
<v Haukur Ingason>And, uh, I recall this so well, and, and, they, they really, there were, were definitely some surprises.

00:27:28.301 --> 00:27:30.063
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>tell, tell me more about these pulsations.

00:27:30.212 --> 00:27:34.583
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I, I've seen something like that when we were doing hot smoke tests in the Waro Metro.

00:27:34.732 --> 00:27:45.375
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and it was kind of, kind of hilarious and kind of stressful because, uh, we were commissioning a new metro line that was crossing with, existing, uh, metro line that was in operation.

00:27:45.516 --> 00:27:49.016
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And there was like literally one tunnel that was joining them together.

00:27:49.016 --> 00:27:50.736
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And we were doing hots smoke test in that tunnel.

00:27:50.741 --> 00:27:58.915
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And we've seen this, this like pulsation ation Like every few seconds the smoke would move back five meters, front seven meters.

00:27:59.111 --> 00:27:59.391
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>meters.

00:27:59.596 --> 00:28:02.756
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>was moving towards the existing operating metro station.

00:28:02.766 --> 00:28:12.076
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So we were really stressed if it'll enter, I, I guess, um, it's a hydraulically it would be similar experience to yours, but yours is probably of different physical origin.

00:28:12.566 --> 00:28:15.006
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, uh, was this pulsating movement?

00:28:15.386 --> 00:28:28.790
<v Anders Lonnermark>Maybe I can answer that, because that was quite large part of my PhD studies when we realized that it was not just ordinary fire positions that you can see from, uh, liquid fires fires cause of under ventilation.

00:28:28.800 --> 00:28:35.137
<v Anders Lonnermark>We also can see, uh, the fire breathing air, to which were sort of a starting point.

00:28:35.137 --> 00:28:46.523
<v Anders Lonnermark>But then we realized that, that, whole tube acted like some resonance, uh, cylinder, in the same way as, as, uh, an organ pipe, for example, that you study in physics.

00:28:46.618 --> 00:28:49.019
<v Anders Lonnermark>in and, uh, I started to look more.

00:28:49.549 --> 00:28:57.900
<v Anders Lonnermark>In detail into this and, uh, and, that this has been studied before and was called something like, uh, thermoacoustic instabilities.

00:28:58.519 --> 00:29:06.759
<v Anders Lonnermark>and even earlier they talked about something called a singing flame, singing where you had to get a sound from, from, uh, a pipe where you had a heating source.

00:29:06.769 --> 00:29:14.630
<v Anders Lonnermark>you had what it is, is that you you have the combination of a heating source of some kind that can give energy to a flow.

00:29:14.630 --> 00:29:15.670
<v Anders Lonnermark>So you need to have a flow.

00:29:16.247 --> 00:29:25.126
<v Anders Lonnermark>and then it's also related to where you put, this, energy source energy sort of giving energy to, to, the node at that point.

00:29:25.297 --> 00:29:30.086
<v Anders Lonnermark>Or if you, there is someone working against that acoustic node in, in a certain point.

00:29:30.086 --> 00:29:34.126
<v Anders Lonnermark>So it's very so it's very relevant also where you place this fire.

00:29:34.426 --> 00:29:37.366
<v Anders Lonnermark>And when we started to, to know this, we could also.

00:29:37.523 --> 00:29:44.819
<v Anders Lonnermark>Calculate and see that the frequencies of these pulsations was very accurate in accordance to some of these node.

00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:48.299
<v Anders Lonnermark>And they notes interacted to give some combined notes as well.

00:29:48.390 --> 00:29:50.259
<v Anders Lonnermark>So that was, uh, very fascinating.

00:29:50.375 --> 00:30:13.400
<v Anders Lonnermark>very we don't know how, how dunno important this is for, for safety, for but I think, uh, it's very interesting for explanation scientifically because we have seen it, as you said, also also in other cases other cases ations where we can also have related also the, the fire to having tubes that was shorter, which gave us another type of frequency.

00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:14.359
<v Anders Lonnermark>So it's very interesting.

00:30:14.791 --> 00:30:18.913
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Anders, if I'm not wrong, you are some sort of mu musician, right?

00:30:18.923 --> 00:30:20.394
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Or you have

00:30:20.554 --> 00:30:22.403
<v Anders Lonnermark>I sing, uh, like to Yes.

00:30:23.203 --> 00:30:26.249
<v Haukur Ingason>a famous for singing in ISS conferences.

00:30:27.186 --> 00:30:32.817
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>it must have been a musician that went into the tunnel to discover, um, thermo acoustic phenomena.

00:30:33.237 --> 00:30:41.900
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, uh, and the scientists who mass, uh, commodity tests to see commodity on wheels, wheels, to, to plan a commodity experiment.

00:30:41.900 --> 00:30:50.624
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Inza what, uh, fire science is a world of, um, of, lucky accidents that, puts the perfect people in the perfect place in the perfect time.

00:30:51.003 --> 00:30:57.170
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm very glad this, uh, all of this came so how, how long did it take?

00:30:57.170 --> 00:30:59.569
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like how, how long did it take you to prep the research?

00:30:59.569 --> 00:31:03.574
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How long did it take you to do the burns, the take process, the data?

00:31:03.753 --> 00:31:05.013
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Was it a very long program?

00:31:06.009 --> 00:31:13.999
<v Anders Lonnermark>It was a long program and, uh, of course Haukur started course early in the planning and having the ideas of what to do.

00:31:13.999 --> 00:31:17.608
<v Anders Lonnermark>And he mentioned also this, uh, we did in our laboratory.

00:31:18.539 --> 00:31:20.539
<v Anders Lonnermark>then a lot of the work was practical.

00:31:20.595 --> 00:31:28.666
<v Anders Lonnermark>was cause this was urban Tunnel with literally nothing in it to, to assist us for performing fire tests.

00:31:28.717 --> 00:31:34.541
<v Anders Lonnermark>So we had Tori Range pide electricity, lighting, the somewhere to clean up.

00:31:34.967 --> 00:31:37.876
<v Anders Lonnermark>we used, uh, like a waterfall for cleaning up.

00:31:38.106 --> 00:31:44.289
<v Anders Lonnermark>cleaning up, but we have arranged toilets and some work shed to be somewhere between the tests.

00:31:44.380 --> 00:32:05.777
<v Anders Lonnermark>Uh, the the protection protection a lot of time, as Haukur said, but then we also had to arrange machines to, to have something to to, own tractors, move all the, these commodities that we were using for the tests for the build up there was a new setup for each test, uh, with steel frames, uh, see, uh, a floor for, for this, uh, palace to be on.

00:32:06.146 --> 00:32:08.817
<v Anders Lonnermark>Of course all the measurements all to be arranged.

00:32:08.826 --> 00:32:13.670
<v Anders Lonnermark>So a lot of fact planning and the renting things, uh, was done before.

00:32:13.730 --> 00:32:32.153
<v Anders Lonnermark>But then in the tunnel itself, after the protection had been been of started, sort were there for, we uh, like two months uh, like in, in, in Theam test, starting with, sort of digging grapes for, for, for the, or channels for, for, for the cables to be protected.

00:32:32.733 --> 00:32:37.700
<v Anders Lonnermark>the Geico, making the frames for from a board to, from a tech board to be.

00:32:37.729 --> 00:32:38.398
<v Anders Lonnermark>Mounted.

00:32:38.528 --> 00:32:46.838
<v Anders Lonnermark>So they were doing their job and in the same time and we were preparing the measurements and all the cable drawings with these long distances.

00:32:46.858 --> 00:32:52.199
<v Anders Lonnermark>And also keeping track of course, of what cables go, goes to, what measurements and all that.

00:32:52.219 --> 00:32:56.038
<v Anders Lonnermark>All that is more difficult when it's so long distances long.

00:32:56.219 --> 00:32:59.515
<v Anders Lonnermark>and one, one very 1, things.

00:32:59.515 --> 00:33:12.345
<v Anders Lonnermark>There was no lighting in, in the tunnel, so the uh, we had to arrange also lighting where we were at, at this site where the testing site, but there were no other lighting in the tunnel, so we had to have like lamps.

00:33:12.369 --> 00:33:19.729
<v Anders Lonnermark>head and we had to arrange and where we range cause of the distances, uh, between our work shed and the fireside.

00:33:19.864 --> 00:33:25.528
<v Anders Lonnermark>the fire so we had to have these so headlines given some kind of light where we worked, light but it was.

00:33:25.733 --> 00:33:34.213
<v Anders Lonnermark>but was Interesting phenomena when we came from the very, very light outside and take the bicycle inside the very dark tunnel even you have the highlight.

00:33:34.213 --> 00:33:37.653
<v Anders Lonnermark>It was headlight moment before the eyes adjusted.

00:33:37.824 --> 00:33:39.839
<v Anders Lonnermark>It was completely darkness then.

00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:43.359
<v Anders Lonnermark>And then we had these sort of small lights to see that it was, uh, safe.

00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:48.104
<v Anders Lonnermark>So with all of those practical, funny things, but also sometimes very very.

00:33:48.554 --> 00:33:51.753
<v Anders Lonnermark>thing, practical things to really arrange to make it work.

00:33:51.866 --> 00:33:54.186
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and, and how long it took between the experiments?

00:33:54.186 --> 00:33:56.507
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, you said two months, but two months was for all

00:33:56.926 --> 00:33:57.416
<v Anders Lonnermark>Yeah.

00:33:57.416 --> 00:34:07.817
<v Anders Lonnermark>So it's app approximately one month for just arranging things, and then it was a month for the test and approximately one week between each test.

00:34:08.483 --> 00:34:09.603
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that, that's very, very quick.

00:34:09.603 --> 00:34:12.123
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, and how many people were involved or around

00:34:12.818 --> 00:34:15.972
<v Anders Lonnermark>Uh, in total, uh, think, maybe around 20.

00:34:16.166 --> 00:34:20.771
<v Anders Lonnermark>around billing up, the protection, projection, the practical arrangement with measurement.

00:34:20.771 --> 00:34:21.746
<v Anders Lonnermark>And, measurement.

00:34:21.922 --> 00:34:27.798
<v Anders Lonnermark>also hurricane mentioned that we have three different different scientific doing different types of measurements.

00:34:27.938 --> 00:34:32.159
<v Anders Lonnermark>And, uh, we all had, uh, a number of, of people at the site,

00:34:32.436 --> 00:34:47.967
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm cheating because I have the conference proceedings in front of me, and I, I found, found the SP hoot test results, uh, that you've mentioned, Haukur and I see that the predicted, heat release rate, uh, for pallets was 186.

00:34:48.306 --> 00:34:51.286
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And in your experiment it was like 200 something.

00:34:51.356 --> 00:34:56.166
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I, let me check Yeah, I you remember that.

00:34:56.166 --> 00:34:56.447
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Good.

00:34:57.407 --> 00:35:01.967
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>for mattresses, the predicted was 167, and that's very remarkably close to.

00:35:02.070 --> 00:35:02.733
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>outcome.

00:35:03.099 --> 00:35:07.340
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and the cops also, you predicted 79, and it was also in this range.

00:35:07.380 --> 00:35:13.239
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>range, I'm fascinated because it's, uh, the, the laboratory tests are in free burn, situation.

00:35:13.690 --> 00:35:20.967
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>yeah, in the uh, not only had a tunnel, but you had this protective, uh, enclosure.

00:35:21.737 --> 00:35:23.246
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It was very close to the fire.

00:35:23.246 --> 00:35:34.286
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I would assume the effects of like heat, radiation and everything around a surrounding that would be, um, massively changing that, that size of the fire compared to a free burn.

00:35:34.746 --> 00:35:38.646
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But, but it seems you, you did a very good estimation by just multiplying it.

00:35:38.867 --> 00:35:40.126
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How would you explain that?

00:35:40.126 --> 00:35:41.967
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Just the oxygen diffusion in the

00:35:42.331 --> 00:35:44.811
<v Haukur Ingason>I explain it with luck comes with skills.

00:35:45.952 --> 00:35:46.402
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I mean,

00:35:46.461 --> 00:35:55.028
<v Haukur Ingason>it was, it was, uh, really, I, I, always remember we felt this need to do this in, in our file laboratory.

00:35:55.028 --> 00:36:06.961
<v Haukur Ingason>And, I knew from experience, uh, in adding up some up, you Knowing, uh, the, the rate of, uh, you know, spread, you can't, uh, get this very close.

00:36:06.961 --> 00:36:20.192
<v Haukur Ingason>And, and that was really, we, we were quite convinced that we would get this, uh, high heat release rate, but at the same time we, we, I think we were more surprised about the temperatures we Okay.

00:36:20.481 --> 00:36:23.442
<v Haukur Ingason>expected, uh, 1,350 degrees.

00:36:23.532 --> 00:36:39.641
<v Haukur Ingason>Uh, the RWS Curve, we more were in the range of 1200 degrees and, uh, hydrocarbon fires like that because we had seen this in our model scale test and in in fire test that we have usually thousand to 1200 degrees, but.

00:36:40.606 --> 00:36:41.567
<v Haukur Ingason>in, in retrospective.

00:36:41.577 --> 00:36:48.246
<v Haukur Ingason>We know, uh, that after doing calculation modeling and so on, that this was really not surprising.

00:36:48.246 --> 00:36:59.764
<v Haukur Ingason>You know, the, the thing is that we had a very good, fire protection of ports who also happens to be quite insulating, and that affects the, Hmm of course.

00:37:00.376 --> 00:37:16.193
<v Haukur Ingason>also we had a, the ventilation of course create this situation, which we didn't have in our fire lab, but we know the spread between the piles is really by the, exposed, way of wind into the fire lot.

00:37:16.534 --> 00:37:28.563
<v Haukur Ingason>But, uh, we had, in our test, we had a tarpole as a protection initially, but that burned away quite So we had like a, a stream into the goods.

00:37:28.563 --> 00:37:32.724
<v Haukur Ingason>So, so we, we were quite convinced that, uh, how it will spread.

00:37:32.983 --> 00:37:35.119
<v Haukur Ingason>But, uh, Temperature.

00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:36.958
<v Haukur Ingason>Definitely were a surprise here.

00:37:37.369 --> 00:37:39.878
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm asking, uh, this, for, for a reason.

00:37:40.028 --> 00:37:47.278
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I, I'm wondering to extent someone can extrapolate these fire dynamics into modern tunnels.

00:37:47.458 --> 00:37:51.878
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The tunnels that I'm designing today, you know, they have three lanes.

00:37:51.878 --> 00:37:57.411
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They have, emergency lane, they have two meters of, of pedestrian walkways on the size.

00:37:57.411 --> 00:37:58.771
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They are six meter tall.

00:37:58.922 --> 00:38:02.492
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They end up having like 120 square meter cross section even.

00:38:03.146 --> 00:38:06.356
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>here, you had a tunnel with a cross section of 30 something.

00:38:06.567 --> 00:38:17.289
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, when, uh, you've built the protective and closure, do, do you think the size of the fire could grow to the same scale in, uh, much larger tunnel where the, all these feedbacks would be lesser?

00:38:17.722 --> 00:38:23.672
<v Haukur Ingason>with the same ventilation condition and the same around the commodity.

00:38:23.742 --> 00:38:31.231
<v Haukur Ingason>Like it was really a direct blow at the, the, since the tarp in the plastics, it, it disappeared soon.

00:38:31.521 --> 00:38:36.938
<v Haukur Ingason>We have done test later in with steel plate in front of the, the goods.

00:38:36.938 --> 00:38:48.898
<v Haukur Ingason>And, and that slowed definitely down the fire growth rate, but the maximum heat lice rate because it, it's dominated by the surface area of, uh, how large areas involved.

00:38:48.898 --> 00:38:57.922
<v Haukur Ingason>And we know that the heat lice rate per unit, area is quite in most cases, even if it's blowing at that, uh, so, so.

00:38:58.360 --> 00:39:06.639
<v Haukur Ingason>the fire growth rate definitely is influenced by the range of in, in that, uh, high ventilated situation.

00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:18.239
<v Haukur Ingason>If you, if you lower the, the ventilation rate, of course you'll get slower heli rate, but I think it will, it'll more controlled by the, the type of, uh, how you arrange the commodity.

00:39:18.380 --> 00:39:25.039
<v Haukur Ingason>And usually in trucks you have a cabin in front or you have some kind of doors at the backside.

00:39:25.099 --> 00:39:29.320
<v Haukur Ingason>All these things affect, so these run tests really.

00:39:30.195 --> 00:39:33.045
<v Haukur Ingason>Showed some kind of, uh, what you can expect.

00:39:33.135 --> 00:39:39.724
<v Haukur Ingason>Uh, in the worst case, it was like, uh, you know, as you said, uh, it was only 30 square meter in, the fireplace.

00:39:40.094 --> 00:39:42.164
<v Haukur Ingason>We had this, uh, protection.

00:39:42.894 --> 00:39:53.480
<v Haukur Ingason>Uh, we have done tests later without this type of protection, but with, uh, with spray concrete and, and we don't get that high as we got in, in the room number huh.

00:39:53.885 --> 00:39:54.724
<v Haukur Ingason>in 2003.

00:39:54.724 --> 00:39:58.079
<v Haukur Ingason>So, so definitely there are parameters affecting Hmm

00:39:58.813 --> 00:40:02.204
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, so this is pretty much the, I, I like how you positioned it.

00:40:02.204 --> 00:40:04.523
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This is, this seems like a worst case scenario.

00:40:04.817 --> 00:40:11.449
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and that, that was what, what you was suing because, uh, in tunnels I guess we should be prepared for, pretty bad scenarios.

00:40:12.090 --> 00:40:15.880
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>also, uh, So, uh, more question to the heat straits.

00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:20.760
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You've also mentioned that the growth was linear and that, that was quite interesting to me.

00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:25.260
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm, I'm, I'm living in the world where the fires grow in a quadratic, manner.

00:40:25.550 --> 00:40:28.739
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So was that something that surprised you that it was linear or, or

00:40:29.009 --> 00:40:33.063
<v Haukur Ingason>in the reality, not because we had seen that in, in our uhhuh.

00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:38.291
<v Haukur Ingason>was also so it, it's more related to the, the, how the goods is, piled

00:40:38.422 --> 00:40:43.565
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>so again, it's a, it is a fuel, property more than, uh, the, the tunnel setting property.

00:40:43.565 --> 00:40:44.045
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay.

00:40:44.114 --> 00:40:47.605
<v Haukur Ingason>I I would say it's more of the type of fuel you are using.

00:40:47.804 --> 00:40:48.005
<v Haukur Ingason>Hmm.

00:40:48.005 --> 00:40:50.485
<v Haukur Ingason>of course, wind, uh, affects this.

00:40:50.795 --> 00:40:52.644
<v Haukur Ingason>It's a wind fire spread

00:40:52.900 --> 00:40:54.219
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and back to temperatures.

00:40:54.219 --> 00:41:10.496
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So you've mentioned, you, you've seen this, uh, massive, uh, 13 hundreds, range, uh, temperatures that actually match the, the curves everyone in the fire testing industry hates because it's, it's challenging if we, we have accomplished, uh, self melting of one of the furnaces.

00:41:10.496 --> 00:41:22.117
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>When we were a, a attempting one of these, uh, tests for these massive temperatures, was it only in the biggest fire or, or it was consistently in this, in this range, uh, in the smaller fires to.

00:41:22.704 --> 00:41:31.313
<v Anders Lonnermark>it was the highest temperature was, was in, in the first test, and that's where we also realized that these high temperature were actually possible.

00:41:31.603 --> 00:41:33.483
<v Anders Lonnermark>So it's, it's was relating to.

00:41:33.893 --> 00:41:40.634
<v Anders Lonnermark>the type of, test that was, uh, performed, but we reached high temperatures, in, uh, most the test.

00:41:40.693 --> 00:41:43.673
<v Anders Lonnermark>But, but test number one was the extreme case.

00:41:43.844 --> 00:41:44.157
<v Anders Lonnermark>Uh,

00:41:44.420 --> 00:41:46.559
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Why did you choose to make the biggest fire?

00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:53.239
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The first, like if you, if it collapses, you have the best results anyway, or that's like risky

00:41:53.329 --> 00:41:54.289
<v Haukur Ingason>I, I, Yeah.

00:41:54.659 --> 00:42:08.760
<v Haukur Ingason>uh, we had a plan, and, we actually, were wanted to do a little small test in the beginning and then, you know, have, uh, some kind of, uh, final test with the, the, the LAR one.

00:42:08.849 --> 00:42:22.039
<v Haukur Ingason>We, we knew that this was the, toughest one, in discussion with, uh, the partners, we came to this conclusion that we should, when we have the best protection, we should do the, the largest Hmm.

00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:37.320
<v Haukur Ingason>So it was, uh, more re practical reason and in retrospect, it was a totally correct decision because was a huge, uh, stress to the, the protection system, but they managed to, to keep it, uh, intact.

00:42:37.510 --> 00:42:37.789
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>in

00:42:38.510 --> 00:42:39.320
<v Haukur Ingason>that was a

00:42:40.052 --> 00:42:41.625
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>ch challenging, very brave decision.

00:42:42.288 --> 00:42:44.967
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>let's move to the impact of the program.

00:42:45.568 --> 00:42:46.858
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I assume you've achieved your goals.

00:42:46.858 --> 00:42:48.458
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You found your hit release numbers.

00:42:48.507 --> 00:42:56.737
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So how, how happy were you with the outcomes of this, of this research and, and do you feel it accomplished what was set in front of it?

00:42:57.032 --> 00:42:58.088
<v Anders Lonnermark>we were very happy.

00:42:58.177 --> 00:43:10.597
<v Anders Lonnermark>Of course it was, sort of overwhelming overwhelming during the, the test series, relating both how to handle these big fires, but also the, the results that were high both in temperatures and heat risk rates.

00:43:10.597 --> 00:43:21.420
<v Anders Lonnermark>And also that we have sort of reached what we thought and of course realized that, that this is, very important for  tunnel, fire, science, and, uh, society.

00:43:21.757 --> 00:43:23.972
<v Anders Lonnermark>and that's of course also why, we.

00:43:24.454 --> 00:43:30.447
<v Anders Lonnermark>Had this, conference and also the result of the conference and the, the interest from, from many organizations.

00:43:30.932 --> 00:43:44.371
<v Anders Lonnermark>and then of course, then to use this R  and that hook can tell more about being, uh, part of different standardization conversation, and, and, these numbers were discussed afterwards.

00:43:44.391 --> 00:44:01.693
<v Anders Lonnermark>How, how, uh, should I relate to different types of, uh, scenarios or situations, and all that and all myself, of course, being in the middle of a PhD started, it's, that was, important thing that, and this, thing I was very lucky to partner up with Haukur in this and getting five.

00:44:02.025 --> 00:44:10.434
<v Anders Lonnermark>Papers outta these only four four that was, uh, very good and very interesting and very, very focused work so to thing.

00:44:10.864 --> 00:44:23.864
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>what a PhD topic to have, uh, Haukur can you tell me more about how, how the data was, uh, disseminated in the standardization committees and what impact on the, the industry it, it made.

00:44:24.733 --> 00:44:39.132
<v Haukur Ingason>somehow, of course, people had started to realize, uh, 2030 megawatt is quite low in relation to what we see in, in, in incidents, involving ordinary, hazardous goods.

00:44:39.693 --> 00:44:44.213
<v Haukur Ingason>became a part of the N F P A 5 0 2 committee in 2009.

00:44:44.543 --> 00:44:49.456
<v Haukur Ingason>Uh, when I came into, the committee, the R w S curve was already there.

00:44:49.505 --> 00:44:59.530
<v Haukur Ingason>So, so I, I assume it was somehow related to our test that, uh, made it, uh, possible to, to somehow, that type of, uh, information.

00:45:00.376 --> 00:45:28.130
<v Haukur Ingason>the, uh, 200 megawatt fire that came, during my, Process in the, in the N F P A committee, I think, uh, it was in, or it maybe was already there, but that definitely, uh, it was 20 to 30 earlier, but today we talk about a hundred megawatts, uh, for, for trucks and even, uh, and two, 300 for, for, petro tanks and so it raised the level of, uh, the design fires.

00:45:28.130 --> 00:45:35.514
<v Haukur Ingason>But, uh, it's also started, in combination with the incidents, to use fixed fire fighting system.

00:45:35.514 --> 00:45:39.297
<v Haukur Ingason>And I, I think these tests really somehow proved something.

00:45:40.083 --> 00:45:42.443
<v Haukur Ingason>but the incident also proved something.

00:45:42.663 --> 00:45:51.840
<v Haukur Ingason>The, uh, the eureka test in 2 19 93 also had showed us the way, so we needed to do something and on in within the pr.

00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:54.480
<v Haukur Ingason>There is of course also these numbers.

00:45:54.570 --> 00:46:00.679
<v Haukur Ingason>Uh, you can see people are not willing to go up to 200 megawatt, but a hundred megawatts some kind of consensus.

00:46:01.170 --> 00:46:02.789
<v Haukur Ingason>Uh, in the room, Imma test.

00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:04.230
<v Haukur Ingason>We only tested.

00:46:05.025 --> 00:46:12.494
<v Haukur Ingason>To 11 tons, uh, and, and trucks, trailers, uh, they, they can't carry much higher loads than that.

00:46:12.494 --> 00:46:18.358
<v Haukur Ingason>So, and this is only one vehicle we, we were interested in, in the fire spread also.

00:46:18.818 --> 00:46:27.221
<v Haukur Ingason>And, and we really succeeded to show that, vehicles about 90 meters away downstream, they could, uh, start to burn Even.

00:46:27.221 --> 00:46:42.364
<v Haukur Ingason>We had a target only 15 meters because we, we, we thought in the beginning, this is only four vehicles close to each other, but we really were able to show that these phase, they can't jump like, uh, 50 - 100 meters easily.

00:46:43.079 --> 00:46:43.239
<v Haukur Ingason>Hmm.

00:46:43.434 --> 00:46:45.284
<v Haukur Ingason>that's something what this has shown.

00:46:45.744 --> 00:46:49.760
<v Haukur Ingason>But in a standard standardization organization, I would say, this?

00:46:49.771 --> 00:46:55.041
<v Haukur Ingason>Uh, a number here is a hundred megawatt, and that that's was raised from 20 to 30.

00:46:55.041 --> 00:47:02.880
<v Haukur Ingason>And, and just by that, I think we succeeded to, to have impact and also the impact on the, on the fixed firefighting,

00:47:03.710 --> 00:47:04.199
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah.

00:47:04.605 --> 00:47:04.885
<v Haukur Ingason>questions.

00:47:05.396 --> 00:47:12.454
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that, that's, that was my follow up question because in the conference paper there are, papers by Alan Brisson on, on the sprinklers.

00:47:12.655 --> 00:47:19.748
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There are some early about of, uh, water aist in, in, in tunnel settings.

00:47:20.898 --> 00:47:36.188
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I guess once you had the you that the virus can be this massive, that the temperatures can be this high, this also like opened the, the way for active fire protection to show how successful it can be I guess, many research further followed.

00:47:36.197 --> 00:47:40.588
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, I know about the research in, in Spain, done with, with different suppression systems.

00:47:40.688 --> 00:47:41.347
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Can you just

00:47:41.608 --> 00:47:42.083
<v Haukur Ingason>Yeah.

00:47:42.083 --> 00:47:42.402
<v Haukur Ingason>I know.

00:47:42.552 --> 00:47:56.226
<v Haukur Ingason>I was involved in, in, uh, it was 2007, in a series with, uh, water mis, uh, testing and, and, and the, and the driving industry was really the water mis manufacturer, not, not the ordinary sprinkler, manufacturer.

00:47:56.226 --> 00:48:09.505
<v Haukur Ingason>They have come into this later, but, uh, the, the waterest industry was really, uh, more unrealized, the need for, for cooling down because the waterest is very effective in cooling, uh, down the temperatures.

00:48:09.965 --> 00:48:11.795
<v Haukur Ingason>And they saw it very early.

00:48:11.896 --> 00:48:20.083
<v Haukur Ingason>The, the possibilities here and, I think partly due to the UNAMA test pit, of course, partly due to what I saw in reality.

00:48:20.112 --> 00:48:22.963
<v Haukur Ingason>I mean, these huge fires, we can't have it like that.

00:48:23.344 --> 00:48:27.965
<v Haukur Ingason>but somehow you need confirmation Runehammar has played a role in that.

00:48:27.965 --> 00:48:29.646
<v Haukur Ingason>It was confirming something.

00:48:30.371 --> 00:48:32.780
<v Haukur Ingason>People maybe have thought or knew.

00:48:33.233 --> 00:48:42.182
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If someone gave you today opportunity to repeat that, uh, would you do it and, and what would be your number one research question today?

00:48:42.193 --> 00:48:43.222
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If you had a chance?

00:48:43.512 --> 00:48:47.409
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If I give you half million Euros in a tunnel and, and, and, uh, support from,

00:48:49.005 --> 00:48:50.574
<v Haukur Ingason>Yeah, that is a good question.

00:48:50.605 --> 00:49:09.835
<v Haukur Ingason>I, I mean, uh, there, there are of course always need for more full scale tests and, we somehow these tests in, in 2003 somehow proved for us and, and others that, ordinary hazard this material can, uh, make a, singing fires in run hammerer and, and That's, that's quite interesting.

00:49:09.835 --> 00:49:16.954
<v Haukur Ingason>But, uh, anyway, uh, I always said that I, my dream is to, uh, run a petrol tank fire in a tunnel.

00:49:17.590 --> 00:49:21.750
<v Haukur Ingason>I mean, we saw in the Norway 2015 that actually occurred.

00:49:21.750 --> 00:49:30.949
<v Haukur Ingason>Such fire doing that type of fire in, in a tunnel is of course maybe getting too late because we have electrical vehicles and things like that.

00:49:30.949 --> 00:49:38.429
<v Haukur Ingason>But I, I think somehow doing, uh, heavy, good vehicles with all near or with like batteries or what, I mean

00:49:39.494 --> 00:49:39.934
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>With

00:49:40.349 --> 00:49:40.670
<v Haukur Ingason>And.

00:49:40.914 --> 00:49:43.875
<v Haukur Ingason>That, that I think there is a time to do something there.

00:49:44.233 --> 00:49:47.648
<v Haukur Ingason>the future will show what what is the most interesting thing.

00:49:47.648 --> 00:49:53.697
<v Haukur Ingason>Of course, we have a lot of debate on, still on, critical velocity and back layering, things like that.

00:49:53.697 --> 00:49:58.137
<v Haukur Ingason>Uh, but most of the research today is done in, uh, model scale test.

00:49:58.547 --> 00:50:08.561
<v Haukur Ingason>So somehow we need to calibrate again, uh, the, all these model scale, you know, research, which has been done to, more full scale testing.

00:50:08.731 --> 00:50:23.527
<v Haukur Ingason>So, so I see maybe we don't have to look for the biggest fires, but maybe we have to look for well defined fires and, and we have to go into the new al alternative fuel, research, uh, you know, frame for the future.

00:50:23.617 --> 00:50:23.967
<v Haukur Ingason>So,

00:50:24.074 --> 00:50:24.889
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you very much.

00:50:24.889 --> 00:50:37.913
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I, I must say, I, I, hate the modern science with this, uh, tiny model skill, uh, tunnels, figuring out, you know, critical velocity to the third significant digit and, uh, innovation coming from this time.

00:50:37.913 --> 00:50:41.693
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We've put, the fire sources not next to each other, but to each one behind another.

00:50:41.693 --> 00:50:46.052
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And there's a paper and another paper when they're like separated by three lengths and five.

00:50:46.063 --> 00:50:46.615
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It is.

00:50:46.615 --> 00:50:51.840
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>it seems more an industry oriented on publishing papers than on tunnel fire safety.

00:50:52.099 --> 00:50:56.159
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Unfortunately, that, that's, that's my view on the modern fire research.

00:50:56.159 --> 00:51:08.431
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This is why, uh, why Research projects like like or we were discussing today feel like, you know, some, someone opens window in a room and, and le lets all the fresh air in.

00:51:08.431 --> 00:51:14.574
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Th this is the type of research that that fire science needs to truly advance.

00:51:14.574 --> 00:51:18.295
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Not, uh, just, uh, you know, have impact factors and citations.

00:51:18.585 --> 00:51:22.454
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, that's, uh, that's what I really appreciate from your program.

00:51:22.625 --> 00:51:32.074
<v Haukur Ingason>I think, uh, concerning the how to proceed on, on, on, I, I review a lot of, uh, these journal papers and I know exactly what you're talking about.

00:51:32.514 --> 00:51:38.545
<v Haukur Ingason>but we have a lot of experience of model scaling, but, uh, we need to do this with full Yeah,

00:51:39.030 --> 00:51:39.391
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Exactly.

00:51:39.391 --> 00:51:39.951
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Exactly.

00:51:40.244 --> 00:51:44.335
<v Haukur Ingason>I always say you learn by model scaling, but you have to confirm by full scaling.

00:51:44.431 --> 00:52:02.161
<v Haukur Ingason>but, uh, know, we have this, uh, conferences which originate from the, uh, test in Runehammar we had this conference as, and as mentioned 2003, and then we started, uh, this is tss, international Symposium, tunnel Safety and.

00:52:02.494 --> 00:52:05.617
<v Haukur Ingason>We have, I think a 10, in, in April.

00:52:06.148 --> 00:52:30.588
<v Haukur Ingason>Uh, we will have in Stavanger uh, the 10th I S T S S, and that's also a product of these, uh, fire tests So, so it has given both us and hopefully research community is something, and, and hopefully IST is a conference where we try to focus on science also and also on practical situations.

00:52:31.019 --> 00:52:35.463
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and then this year it's very conveniently, organized together with fires in vehicles.

00:52:35.463 --> 00:52:36.543
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, five conference.

00:52:36.913 --> 00:52:39.742
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They're like one next to each other, uh, in the same place, I think.

00:52:39.753 --> 00:52:42.902
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So you can like with one triple 10, both if I'm not wrong.

00:52:43.182 --> 00:52:52.472
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, so that's a very interesting opportunity to visit s Stavenger and, to learn about autonomous vehicles and, uh, all these aspects of safety Anders uh, final question to you.

00:52:52.472 --> 00:53:01.567
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How, how did the, this program change you as a young scientist and what, what was the number one lesson for you as as a young PhD student given such a toy

00:53:01.958 --> 00:53:08.228
<v Anders Lonnermark>Well, if I answer that question in two ways, it of course changed my scientific life, uh, completely.

00:53:08.550 --> 00:53:10.525
<v Anders Lonnermark>Uh, this, were a different type.

00:53:10.525 --> 00:53:13.565
<v Anders Lonnermark>I mean, I've done research before, done but, uh, both.

00:53:14.135 --> 00:53:18.784
<v Anders Lonnermark>seeing the influence that these results had, uh, was very satisfying.

00:53:19.164 --> 00:53:45.192
<v Anders Lonnermark>But also the the, the results we, we saw also gave other opportunities for Haukur and me to continue to the research within internal research within the uh, a platform here that HKU has been responsible for, very much increasing the, the research within tunnel and underground facilities and of course IST ss and getting to know so many other people's many in the fire safety society.

00:53:45.402 --> 00:53:49.021
<v Anders Lonnermark>So, so that was, And big change in my certificate career.

00:53:49.021 --> 00:53:53.902
<v Anders Lonnermark>Of course, not only getting the PhD degrees from it, so that, so that is one side.

00:53:54.282 --> 00:54:02.411
<v Anders Lonnermark>The other lessons learned is of course, these large scale tests take a lot effort, uh, costs, uh, a lot of planning.

00:54:02.612 --> 00:54:08.052
<v Anders Lonnermark>There are many things that that can go, go wrong, uh, or at least needs to be changed.

00:54:08.192 --> 00:54:17.514
<v Anders Lonnermark>But with, uh, a lot of planning and, uh, use of previous experience, you can perform these tests, uh, in in a good way that they are very useful.

00:54:17.695 --> 00:54:28.617
<v Anders Lonnermark>very And, to sum up that sometimes we really need these, as also Haukur mentioned, these large scale tests because they give much, so much extra than then extra than.

00:54:28.737 --> 00:54:37.297
<v Anders Lonnermark>or, or model scale can, can do for one thing to convince, one a other people, but also to, to be used for, for modeling, validation later.

00:54:37.297 --> 00:54:42.938
<v Anders Lonnermark>And we actually see what, what, what it is when we put on fire, real large scale test.

00:54:43.059 --> 00:54:43.860
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Fantastic.

00:54:44.179 --> 00:54:51.969
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Gentlemen, thank you very much for coming to the it was fantastic to learn firsthand, uh, from you about Reno Hammerer tests.

00:54:52.710 --> 00:55:05.369
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, uh, I mean, if, if you're not bored with it, I wish you wish continue talking about this important important for the next, uh, decade or so, at least, uh, because it's still, uh, making making impact on, on the fire science.

00:55:05.675 --> 00:55:15.199
<v Haukur Ingasson>Finally, we would like to, thank our fantastic colleagues, especially our technicians who made a, a great job during this test.

00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:23.403
<v Haukur Ingasson>And, uh, also, To our manager, Ruth Fixer and Morgan mc, who have played a major role in, in making this possible.

00:55:23.903 --> 00:55:34.920
<v Haukur Ingasson>And, uh, also of course, we want to thanks to our Swedish Financeers as well as our partners and UPTUN project to make this possible.

00:55:34.920 --> 00:55:37.447
<v Haukur Ingasson>And at the end, I would say the.

00:55:38.034 --> 00:55:49.826
<v Haukur Ingasson>Work from, uh, the, uh, proma International and, uh, GERCO as well as, uh, the fire ventilator big in Germany was, uh, was necessary to make this possible.

00:55:49.938 --> 00:55:51.483
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>thanks again and see

00:55:51.672 --> 00:55:52.233
<v Haukur Ingason>Thank

00:55:53.543 --> 00:55:53.663
<v Anders Lonnermark>you.

00:55:53.702 --> 00:55:54.382
<v Anders Lonnermark>Thank you.

00:55:54.864 --> 00:55:55.284
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And that's it.

00:55:55.284 --> 00:55:56.753
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I hope you've enjoyed this episode.

00:55:57.414 --> 00:55:58.153
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Runnehamar..

00:55:58.224 --> 00:56:04.193
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>This experiments have really changed the tunnel fire science and they steal make an impact today.

00:56:04.643 --> 00:56:06.653
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I recall a thing a year ago.

00:56:07.043 --> 00:56:21.344
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We were publishing a paper with a student from Spain, Diego, and we were investigating one D 3d, coupled modeling, and we used Runehammar case study for, for that, because it's so well described.

00:56:21.344 --> 00:56:22.543
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So well measured.

00:56:22.829 --> 00:56:25.139
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>that is really well available.

00:56:25.409 --> 00:56:29.010
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So why, why not using that as probably the best experiment we have.

00:56:29.369 --> 00:56:33.150
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So even though it happened 20 years ago, Steel today.

00:56:33.210 --> 00:56:36.420
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It is a very, very useful piece of research.

00:56:36.869 --> 00:56:40.920
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And it was huge fun to interview the creators of that.

00:56:41.137 --> 00:56:46.498
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, I mean, You can learn all about the science behind these experiments from the papers.

00:56:46.978 --> 00:56:50.407
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But, understand how they felt, what made them do it?

00:56:51.128 --> 00:56:55.088
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>What were the challenges were where they had to push a little more.

00:56:55.568 --> 00:56:56.978
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>All of this fun things.

00:56:57.367 --> 00:57:01.748
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Is what I try to deliver through this episodes of fire science show.

00:57:01.987 --> 00:57:04.208
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So I really hope you've enjoyed that.

00:57:04.927 --> 00:57:05.693
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I know that.

00:57:05.710 --> 00:57:06.760
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>experiments that have changed.

00:57:06.791 --> 00:57:11.951
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Fire science are one of the most liked parts of the fire science show.

00:57:12.311 --> 00:57:14.291
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So I'm going to produce more of them.

00:57:14.590 --> 00:57:18.820
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If you have a good idea about an experiment that has changed the fire science.

00:57:19.271 --> 00:57:22.271
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Please send it towards me and I'll try to organize.

00:57:22.780 --> 00:57:26.831
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>The discussion with creators or people knowledgeable.

00:57:27.251 --> 00:57:30.221
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>About that, uh, background of that experiment.

00:57:30.701 --> 00:57:36.820
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So thank you for listening and see you again next wednesday thank you bye