Marriage. Ep 16

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercam. I'm a mother of four, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. I'm a mother of two and soon to be three and a practicing physician. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. Episode sixteen. Today will be about marriage and particularly the question of resentment that sometimes comes up in families over work hours and who's doing what and how you can make sure that you still have a strong relationship despite those occasional feelings of resentment. So we are recording this at the beginning of November, but it will air just right before Thanksgiving. What are your plans this week? Sarah? I guess you're not really traveling, are you. No, we are not traveling, but actually we don't usually travel, so it's not just due to my late trimester status. So, as you know, we live in Miami Beach, and back when lived in North Carolina, we would come to Miami Beach every year. So my husband's family has a big family Thanksgiving, and sometimes my family actually comes and joins it. Other times it's just them, but traditionally we're here. So ever since we moved, we have not felt the need to go anywhere else for Thanksgiving because we're already where the action is. And the funny thing is, I used to think it was like the most amazing thing to have Thanksgiving with warm weather, and I'd like wear sun dresses, you know, because it would be getting cold where I was and I'd be so happy. And now I'm like the total opposite, and I'm likeugh, I just want I just want a little bit of a wintry, cozy feeling for Thanksgiving, and I never get it. You want, I call it believe right, it's all about what you don't have. So I do think maybe next year will be the first year that we venture up and maybe we'll be near you guys. We can. We're a run in Philadelphia. That sounds awesome. Yeah, we'll do our own little turkey trot. Yeah, it's a good weekend not to travel. I gotta say I've in my life had a few Thanksgiving weekends involving getting stranded somewhere because everyone's traveling and it's like the start of winter weather and it doesn't matter where the winter weather is, it will affect everyone else. So be a blizzard in Detroit next thing, you know, no one's going anywhere, So I'm happy not to travel too. We're staying here, but we're hosting my entire extended family at least. I think that's good, and I probably should confirm that. What do you think the numbers are going to be? Oh, it's not that. It's not. What I mean by that is more like my immediate family, so my two brothers, my older brother's family, my mom and dad, and then of course the six of us who are here. So what does that come out to. I've done it. It's like fourteen people there. No, it's not that many. It's not that bad. Okay, but yeah, no, I actually really like cooking. I mean, given that it's at your in laws, you don't need you don't wind up doing the cooking then, right, Actually, it's a Josh's grandmother's and we all bring stuff, so like I'll probably make I almost always make a key line pie, which I realized is not traditional, but whatever, and then some kind of like sweepy tooted thing and that's it. So we kind of all bring stuff that makes sense. You're gonna cook everything. I'm gonna cook everything. Well we have we have like our our roles as it were, which is a pun now that I'm thinking about it, because my sister in law makes incredible buttery rolls. It's great like North Carolina recipe generations, where so she makes those for all family get togethers. There's like a stick of butter per roll, so it's a special special treat. So she makes those. We tend to buy pies at Costco po. Costco has really awesome Thanksgiving pie, so we buy like a pecan pie and a pumpkin pie. So that's done. Like I don't have any particular pie baking capability that I want to share with anyone, so that's that's done. My little brother likes to make fudge, so then we have that as a dessert. So really all I have to do is is the turkey, the dressing. I usually like recruit someone else to make the gravy while I'm dealing with the turkey, because that's the last thing you always make with the you know, drippings that come off the turkey, and then like green beans, apple sauce, which my older brother tends to make, what else like a salad? Potatoes? Come on, there's gotta be we don't actually do sweet potatoes. We doshed potatoes. I like sweat potatoes, but my my husband is not a big fan, so we're sort of no. No one has spoken up in favor of having sweet potatoes. So and the truth is, like there's so much excess at Thanksgiving, like there's really no one essential thing. Yeah, there's not at all. So funny, and you know, some of the foods I've even like learned. So I never used to like cranberry sauce, but now I make my own cranberry sauce out of I just buy a big bag of cranberries, also a cross. Yeah, and you cook it down with like apple cider and sugar, and it's actually a really good sauce. So that's it's really good. Although my husband's family has a funness for they love the like kind of a cantcause I think it's like a slice up like it makes this gelatinous little circles. They love it, and I kind of get it. I kind of get it. There is a little bit of an appeal. I think it's a retro kind of a retro sort of the real stuff. Yes, I prefer I guess yeah, yeah, although I always sort of misjudge the timing on the turkey, and so everything else is done like forty five minutes before the turkey, and then we all just have to like cool our heels for a while and just pour another glass of wine. That's perfect. Yeah. I cooked my first Thanksgiving dinner. I don't know what it was a couple of years ago. I was like, oh, I've I've crossed that threshold. I feel like that's an adulthood market. I think we did it in North Carolina a couple of times when we didn't feel like traveling, So I guess there's been a couple of exceptions when one of us was on call. And yeah, you do feel very grown up making all those things so much cooking for it, like doesn't take that much time to eat. But it's fun. It's all good. So other things we are thankful for. Another wonderful segue here, Yes, that's a good one, was our husband. We are both thankful for our husbands, who are great guys. How long have you been married now, we have been married for eleven years and we have been together for fifteen years. Yeah, we met when we were well. I was I was only twenty two. I was like a kid basically, So hi Josh, Hi Josh. Listen to Sarah talking about you, and you were in You were in school then, right, you were. Yes, we met in the very beginning of med school, and then we were dating by the first test. And we always like to joke that we didn't do very well in the first test, but it was okay for each other. And then you got married after med school or got married. I think I had still one year of med school left, but he was done, so it was right before. It was two thousand and six, was like a year or two ahead of you. He remember a student. Listeners will remember, No, I'm just kidding. So remember I quit my PhD. So we started at the same time. But I ended up with an extra year of school and got my master's, so I ended up finishing a year after him, even though we started at the same time. So we got married right before my fourth year of med school. So we were actually doctor and missus for like a year before you were doctor and doctor exactly, yes, exactly, which we'll do a later episode on gender stereotypes. But every time you see mister and doctor, does it give you a little pause, like you're like, wait a minute, mister interesting. I feel like I should say doctor and miss I don't know that's interesting. Yeah. True. How long have you guys been together? Well, we met in early two thousand and three, so I was I was twenty three, so yeah, not far off you guys, although my husband was far off all of us in terms of he's a wee bit older, but it was. Yeah. I went to a get together. One of my friends, good friends from college, had just started dating a guy who actually worked with Michael. They worked in the New Jersey office of their company, but lived both of them lived in New York. And there was a get together in New York for people who were in the New Jersey office. And my friend went to see her boyfriend at this and I think was possibly a wee bit bored. She was texting all her friends to like, come meet her at this bar. So I was out with friends doing something else and I'm like, oh, well, that looks fun. I'll just go find her, and so I went to the bar and next thing I know, I'm talking to this guy at the bar and went from there. Wow, yeah, similar, And yeah you have the I think we have a little bit of an age difference too, and I think you have more, but maybe as a twenty two or twenty three year old. That just added to the mississipist. I know, it's like, whow, my boyfriend's in his thirties, but of course now seems like very young. But yeah, no, he was. I mean the thing about that though, is he I think he was in the hunt for a wife. So he proposed exactly one year after we met, which he he sort of had made clear as he thought was as soon as he could do it that I wouldn't be totally freaked out. Oh I think that's kind of sweet though, Like he knew from the very beginning, so he knew that that was he had to wait, that he couldn't we tell this story he actually on It was like our third date or something. His parents were visiting him in New York and he took me to meet them, and he may have been a wee bit inebriated because he was nervous. He was self medicating, medicating, and he wound up. He's like he told his parents that we were engaged. And I was like what, but it's oh wow. And then and then he walked you back to and he stood there on the sidewalk being like, I love you, I love you. I was like, whoa, this is a little crazy. But it turned out that it was true, just premature. So that's uh, you know, And how many years are you now? Similar? Right? What we got married, you know, shortly after the very right faster, so it was we have been married thirteen years now and been together for yeah, so same amazing. So we are grateful. We are very grateful. We are, which brings us to this listener question because we wanted to get that out of the way first. So Sarah, you want to read it, yes, okay, Hi, Sarah. I love the podcast, Thank you, And I have a follow up question after listening to this morning's episode, which mostly came to me after hearing Chavan's story of her being on with the kids, and that was episode number eleven, by the way, if anybody wants to reference that. Because her husband has longer commute and work hours during the week, I know this is similar to you and Josh, since his chosen field is just more demanding of time. How do you work through the hope few moments of resenting your husband for the imbalance of time caring for children. Let me explain, like many of you, my husband's job is just more demanding than mine from a time and flexibility perspective. I knew this going into the relationship, and I knew this when we decided to have a child, and I still know it as we consider a second child. These are all conscious choices we signed up for this. My husband does a lot for our family, but the reality is that I take on more childcare responsibilities than he does, even with some outsourcing. And for the most part, that is fine. But I do occasionally have these moments of resentment because it's just not fair. She had a little doctumatic there exactly. Do you have advice for working out through these moments? Thanks for considering, Laars. You want to go first, I'll put you in that seat. Well, you know it's Sarah. I've had discussions about this and the past offline from the podcast, because yes, we are both in a situation where our husband do work more hours than us, and sometimes in sort of less flexible ways in the sense of you know, Josh doing his surgeries and then having weekend call. You know that he's really in the hospital for all of it. And my husband is in one of the major consulting firms, and so there's a lot of travel associated with that, which you know is the nature of the job. And so yeah, we both of us wind up in situations where we could at times feel a bit resentful of it, because it's not like both of us said like, oh, yeah, that's it. We want our husbands to build their careers and we're going to take care of everything on the home front so that they can go do that, because both of us really truly love what we do as well, right, yes, And so I think that the resentment comes from us say, well, that's not the arrangement we had. We didn't have an arrangement where like I run the home front, you go do your saying it's like, well, I want to succeed in my career too, And I think sometimes it can feel like you don't have the same level of support you. I'm saying broadly here, not Sarah you, but all we not have the same level of support that we feel like we would be giving to our spouse's you know, with again someone with our jobs if we were male. All right, Like you know Sarah as a physician, Many physicians who are male have wives who do a lot, you know. And actually many physicians who are female have husbands who I one of my former mentors her husband actually he used to work and then like I think two or three years into her being in attending, he just stopped and started staying home. And so she had this like wonderful stay at home dad kind of like cooking and cleaning and doing everything all of a sudden. So I'm not saying that's a better situation. It is just a different situation. But sometimes it can. Just you get compared even when you don't want to. Yeah, I compare it. I'll like that word. I was like, this is the worst word. How would I even spell that. I'm pondering what's the right word for I don't know, Well, resentful is the woman word? This woman where I used and and I think there is some element of resentment of comparing. For example that you know, I feel like when I travel for work, we almost always have our nanny spending the night, whereas most of the time when my husband travels, I'm the one covering, right. And so there was an article we both read in Harvard Business Review recently. You've got that pulled up and yes, I have the reference. So it is called if you can't find a spouse who supports your career, stay single by a Viva Wittenberg Cox, which wasn't really the point of the article, by the one bit, more of a yeah, that might have been a little bit of a click headline. She was trying to shock you into reading it, and it worked. It totally worked. But she talked about she did kind of talk about a little bit about a trend in women that sort of voluntarily what is marriages feeling equal then sort of stepping down because the husband's career ended up taking taking off and then resenting it and leaving the marriage. So actually, I mean, to some extent, that's that's they didn't stay. They became single later that they felt that their husband wasn't supporting their hopes and goals and they felt they wanted to marriage where that happened, and you know, and one of the things she talked about is what were the parenting void is how She put it that what these women didn't think they would have to deal with is that they when they needed to invest in their careers at certain points, they didn't feel like their husband was filling in with the support that they would have given if he needed to sort of put his you know, foot on gas for a while. And so I think that that sense of avoid like it can can make people resentful. But we, I mean, we've both thought about this a lot, and Sarah came up with a list of things that she's sort of done to help her deal with, you know, the idea of you know, working really hard and then covering his call and such like that. And I'll be honest, I mean the reason I have sort of thoughtfully come up with this list is because there are moments when, even though I know that we've kind of designed things how we've designed them, it's just instinctual when certain things happen to have that same feeling that the writer described, and resentment really is the best word for it, like how did I end up in this kind of situation? How is this fair? But the things that have helped is number one, not to worry about keeping score and try not to focus on what his situation is versus my situation, but instead focus on what is my situation relevant to what I want my situation to be, So focusing not on what he's doing or whether he's getting more time than me or whatever, But am I getting what I need? You know, the too happy parents is much more the goal than equality. And I'm not saying that in like an anti women's liberation kind of a situation. I'm saying that as someone who really did pick a career that does have more flexibility than his does. And I really do hope there are many couples out there mirroring us, where the female is more in my position or in his position, and the male is more in his position or you know. Of course, same sex couples are a whole different story altogether and tend to have less issues here, oddly enough. But anyway, the focus should be on me. So if during the weekend, I want to work out twice and get an app and go to a social activity, then that's kind of my goal and it doesn't matter if as long as those are met, there's really not a reason for me to be fixated on who's doing more of the grunt work or childcare or you know, focus more on like what's going on in the home. So I focus more on like does that mean I need childcare? Does that mean I need to plan a plate because I'd much be happier out of the house doing something social then stuck at home. And as we've talked about previously, it means talking and thinking through these in advance with my husband so that it's like, Okay, I know what kind of work do you need to get one this weekend? This is what I want to do, and then actually working the logistics of that app and that helps us. And when we don't do it, then I usually learn my lesson and I get those resentful feelings. So yeah, usually I then go back to planning the next weekend. Planning is always good. And then I love your idea of assuming the worst, right, Like, this is all about expectations from unmet expectations. So if the so it's a reality, can't change, you can change your expects. No, I think that's total. I think it's actually true. And I used to sort of be like, oh, you know, like he's on call, but maybe he'll be here for this, or like, you know, brude about him not being home at night, but instead I sort of reframed it as like he's generally not available to be home at night. That's my time and my time to enjoy with the kids and enjoy with maybe my book. If he doesn't get home by a certain point, it's kind of like me time, And if he's on call, I'd rather just pretend in my mind like he's gonna be gone all day, and then I can be pleasantly surprised if he's not gone all day, but I won't be spending the time thinking, oh, what, you know, I plan for this and it didn't happen. So it's actually much better to just sort of like give him a longer window than I think he even needs and then be pleasantly surprised. And then finally, my third thing that I came up with was really the whole childcare thing. We've talked about this before. There is definitely a guilt factor in hiring childcare at times, but when you're in a partnership like this, where you're part might work a lot more, you are not hiring your childcare. We've said this, but I'm just saying it again to cover yourself. You're hiring it to cover them so that you can get some breathing room. And you know, in our case, this translated into when I went eighty percent time and I'm recording this, you know right now in one of my days off. You know, I initially thought, oh, maybe I won't really need childcare during that time, but you know, it turned out I definitely do need and want it because it's having this extra time during the week that has kind of allowed me to feel much more at peace on what happens on some weekends. Like so I think I've been better about actually, and he's been happy about, like, I'll give him a larger chunk to get work done on the weekends because I've had that free time during the week, which I wouldn't have had if I hadn't sort of just admitted my need to have some coverage on these days off. So I am pro getting the help you need. Yeah, definitely pro getting help. I mean, that's something that's really helped me is having the evening child care because I the hours of like six to eight were always the most stressful of my day, and now we're they're not unstressful. I mean, like we have four children, there's more than enough work to go around, but I don't have to handle them by myself, and that right, and as many people don't because usually they would have a have a partner. If if you have your partner there, the partner can be doing something, you know, and and so if that wasn't going to be in the cards, then having someone else around to help is again it's not I'm still there. I mean I'm here, So it's uh, we're outsourcing him, not not me. And you know, obviously there's a financial aspect to it. But one thing I would say that can you know on the resentment question, I do kind of feel like, ideally, if your partner is working the sort of job that is the long hours or travel or you know, heavy call or whatever, that their compensation justifies it. And if that is not the case, then I think that is a different discussion. And I do feel my heart goes out to people who are like in the training years, you know, like having and that's why I like having kids in residency. As much as I encourage it, I acknowledge how incredibly difficult that must be to have like maybe two residant parents because you are in that extremely intense place maybe en route to having good compensation, but it's not there yet. So those are special and difficult situations. But regardless of what situation you are in, and yes, shout out to you know, spend spend money to make your life easier. And even if you are in those I mean, maybe those are the years you're not saving any money, like just just put that up or that you borrowing. It will be okay. Kids will be older, so yeah, it'll be fine. Fine. But just like general communication about things, I love you. Sarah has said something. I had to forward this to my husband because I was like, ooh, we need to do that. You're having a summit this weekend. I love that idea, Like I say, yes, we come it like there will be translators maybe, like we call it a summit. I think this week and we've actually we're like long, we're long overdue for one. I like to do one every couple of months, and I think it's been even longer than that where we have no kids to distract us. Where it's ideally like not late at night, like during the day when we're fresher in the morning and we talk about like what we want the calendar to look like, what's working, what's not working. I mean right now, I think what one major thing we need to decide is like how we want to put our twenty eighteen call schedules together, because with a third kid, our current system might not work anyway. But yes, this the summit. I think the communication is really important, and I think many people, if you're like us, you kind of have to schedule it in as unromantic as that may seem, having these discussions, because otherwise it might never happen. Yeah, it probably won't happen, I can. I mean, you're not going to feel suddenly inspired to like discuss your life and magic not have the children be there. That's unlikely to just be in the cards for the weekend. So yeah, no, I think we need to do one of those, you know, for just lots of things, like discussing, well, what is our actual policy on screen time in the house right, Like maybe we should have one, Yeah, parenting discussions. Is stuff going okay with the kids school? You know? Does everybody feel like they're getting the right amount of time for themselves or on weekends? Is the childcare situation perfect? All those kind of logistical things. And I have heard of people doing family meetings with the kids, especially when they get older. And I think that sounds fantastic, but I have a feeling that even when I if we get to that point, we'd want to have like a private segment. Well then a publicis I have a private sment, which I mean is Another thing in terms of keeping resentments at bay is to make sure that you are still investing in your relationship, like as a relationship, as a love affair, because if you think about it, like when your first dating and you're like madly in love and all that, Like if if your partner was like late for something, you would have been so much more inclined to believe like, oh, he just got stuck in traffic, you know, or like something came up, like he couldn't get out of it, Like you're not imagine you know, immediately being like it's because he's a horrible person who doesn't value my time, right, Like that's not the first thing you would have thought it's mad at all. And so it might help to get that mindset back. And one of the ways you do that is by trying as much as possible to keep some element of that you know, mad love affair, your spark. Yeah, no, absolutely I mean, we all have to remember that our marriages and partnerships are actually longer lasting, you know, than are the time our kids are at home. And of course parenting doesn't stop when your children go to college, but it's your partner that you're gonna be with, hopefully until the very end. So it's really worth investing that time. Yeah, yeah, which is not always easy. And you know, can we go there, Sarah? Can we Is this a family family podcast? Are we going into the topic of time for intimate relations A couple of times, a couple of time, whatever euphemism we want to use. The problem with children though, is like, I mean, it's worse than if I don't know, there's like no time. It seems that they're not around. And especially now that my kids are staying up later, I don't stay up. That's the problem. So my ten year old will like still be wandering the halls. You got to get back in bed. It's ten o'clock at night, but I'm not tired go to bed. Oh my goodness. I feel like you could set like I don't know, curfew. You have to pursue a week to stay after this also sound machines from and I mean another you know, side effect of our two year old giving up his nap on weekends is that was you know, nice couple times as well, but it's not there even though this is a family podcast. I agree. I think that's a really important part of relationships too, and part of what keeps them long lasting and real and making people feel closer together as well, like in more that you are a couple and not someone you need to be resenting that this is you know, the person you love and wish to spend your life with. So that's never never an easy thing. But marriages are not easy. I just reviewed this book for the Wall Street Journal. It was called The All or Nothing Marriage, and it pointed out that marriages have definitely evolved in what we want from them that in the past. I mean, at first, there's you know, property and protection from marauding whatever, you know, bands of thieves or something, and procreation, and you know, then in like the eighteen hundreds, the whole idea of romantic love got into it. That that was really not something that was that was treated much as an important part of any of this, you know before then. But now what we want from our marriage is someone who helps us become our best selves, which is kind of a lot to ask of a partnership. You know that we want it to be not only the sort of passion we had as you know when we were first together. We want somebody who's our soulmate, and getting that takes a ton of work from both parties. And what happens is that people kind of run out of steam, especially during the busy years you're building your career, raising your young children, and you know, in the past, I think people might have sort of accepted that as like such as the human condition, right, like imagine that. But now we're surrounded by these ideas that like I don't know, I mean, people have in their vows stuff like well we watch the same TV shows like come on, you know that's really not If you think that that's like everything has to be so in tune like that, well yeah, you're gonna be horribly disappointed. It's the idea of the expectations versus reality. Again, So there is something to be said of, at least during the busney years maybe seeing if there are sometimes that you can ask a little bit less from your partnership that you know, in terms of helping you become your best self, like maybe there's a therapist or something you can see for a while, and if you need the companionship their you know, friendships need to be a little bit more without or extended family that you can lean on for more help with the childcare or paid childcare and things like that. And then as the kids get older and again as you get out of that sort of desperately busy phase, you can start getting back to more of those things with your relationship. That made me think of the book we discussed in the prior episode, The Course of Love, which I think like looks at that really nicely in a fictional way. And then also Aziz I'm sorry wrote a book called Modern Romance where he also kind of goes into the historical context of relationships. And you know, back in the day, people were very likely to marry their neighbor, and you're right, they didn't expect much about them. It was like taking care of each other and that's about it. And now we want we expect everything. And that's an interesting way to think about it that maybe there are sometimes when actually you can release some of those a little bit when you need to, and you can still want a lot from your partnership if you should. And I think we've both done pretty well in that. I mean again reiterating, I feel very lucky. So that's good we do. So bringing us to our husbands are our first love of the week, but our second love of the week, what did you quite this is? Yeah, we're going to make a like you turned her? Oh, I like, I love what you did this one. So our love of the week is that we finally got our car. But the car is not the love. It's the fact that we used a car broker. So I never knew this was a thing. But my husband, who I will say, is a much better you know, we've talked about like satisfy their maximizer, like he's going to look into things a lot more than I will. And I'll give him credit for that because sometimes this probably is a good idea. And he figured out that there's a thing called a car broker where you just pay them a fee and it's not like a crazy fee, and they'll find you a deal and get you a car and you don't even have to go into the dealership. So we wanted a highland or hybrid, which are not super easy to find, and in fact, we ended up having to get our car shipped from like near Orlando, so you know the religistics involved. But our part of the deal just ended up being paying this guy and he ended up getting us a much better deal so that it paid for itself. And then we just had to like sign a bunch of paper on that was FedEx to us and that was it, and our car is coming. So I highly recommend considering this option if you know what you want and you don't want to go through the ordeal of like haggling at the dealership and shopping around to local places. And you know, neither Josh nor I are a very good negotiators, so this was a great way of just taking us out of the loop. Yeah, that's great. When I bought my car, it was like six and a half years ago, I knew I wanted an accurate MDX, and so what I did is I just emailed half a dozen car dealerships, like in you know, within one hundred miles and asked what price they would give me, and one a couple gave me like an actual price, because you know, if we were buying it new, and so it's it's kind of a commodity like this. You know, the new cars, so certain the packages make things different all the time. Now, but you know this is the new model. Certain things say well, what price would you give me? And then I got us. I took the lowest price, and I went to my local dealer and asked him to match up and he did. So that was relatively easy. You were your own it's my own car broker. But we saved all those saved all this stuff, So there you go. Plus, I guess the argument is that, like the broker may have better negotiating if he's there all the time. You know, all these guys, they know him, and you know so exactly. He may know who needs to move a model, you know, off the showroom in the next Yes, that's so. Yeah. So my love of the week is related to the car thing, just because it's my serious XM radio, specifically Channel seventeen, which hopefully they won't have gotten rid of by the time this episode airs, because it's relatively new. But it's this. It's called pop Rocks and what it is I swear it must have hatched from the brain of somebody who is precisely between the ages of thirty six and forty because It is all late nineteen nineties early two thousands. The tagline is rock songs that became pop hits. But basically it's just like slightly harder edge pop. So it's stuff like Dave Matthew's been I know it was Alanis Morris sat Smashing Pumpkins. All. This is so oh very but but it's like perfect for me. That's so funny. I feel like it was me who designed this radio station. So I've been listening to it all the time. I say that the proportion of songs I like from it is much higher than it was at the other two stations I was listening to, which were the Pulse which was fifteen, and the Blend, which was sixteen. I just got tired of them now. I was it was too much poppy. I'm a number thirty five XMU like nerdy music. It is thirty five. It's like indie. It's really good, but it's like it's sort of a quiet you have to like start listening to it, and then it's because it seems really weird at first, and then and then you start liking it. But I could see the appeal for just sort of like the sing along older stuff that might be I don't have to check out, so you have to check it because channel seventeen. And it's funny because they play like messages from listeners who have been enjoying it, and they are all exactly people like me. They'll be like, oh, I'm so glad to hear these songs from when I was in college. Again like yes, and I was born in nineteen eight. Again, I'm sure it's a very bad you know it. That's the same demographic that probably subscribes to a lot of that'll light radio, so they I bet it will stay around, Sarah. Those of us who are in our cars, driving to work, driving the kids around, we're all like thirty eight years old. There we go. So anyway, this has been best of both worlds. We've been talking marriage this week and how to keep ourselves from feeling resentful as things come up, So please tune in next week. We'll have more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both Worlds Podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.