3. The Psychology of the 9-5

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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the Very unprofessional podcast, whereby I your unqualified guide talk through some of the big changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology. Welcome back to the podcast. I hope your week has been well, that's something amazing has happened, or you got some cool news. I'm recording this with a little cat on my lap right now and it's very, very satisfying. But this week we're going to be delving into the chaos, the absolute fucking nightmare of the nine to five job. This is a topic that my friends and I talk about all the time, and the general conclusion we most often reach is that the nine to five jobs should be abolished, left for dead. It's not a happy way of life for many, I think, and myself included. So today we're going to talk about how a nine to five is not conducive to a healthy, rounded and happy way of living, especially when we're young. And we're going to have a special guest come on later. But first let's just talk about some of the psychological concepts behind why nine to five work week is actually just really terrible. So our work can be a big part of our identity and offer some pretty key insights into what's important to us. So it is a really rich area of psychological study, and for many people in the twenties, the transition to full time work is very much like the transition to adulthood. We have those fun years in university, in high school. We have a lot of freedom to work the jobs and the hours we want, and for many that means that we have our days and you know, well our lives just free to do what we wish with. But that can really come crashing down when we enter the workforce and suddenly we have to adapt our lifestyle to the typical nine to five work week. So I've had this experience recently. I work the typical nine to five every day every week, and after the first few weeks, the novelty kind of wears off and it really started to wear me down, and it can be pretty fucking depressing. The thing that really got was that mononymous procedure of going to the same place every day, the same commute, doing the same silly little task, surrounded by the same people, and so much of your day becomes devoted to this bigger entity and what's in the interests of this company or organization, which can be you know, insanely unfulfilling in many instances. And I especially began to notice this when winter struck. You wake up at nine, seven thirty, the sun's still down, commute to work, maybe blasting some music so you don't feel like, you know, an absolute robot, and you finish up after five, when the sun is set. And where where's your day gone? Where is this natural instinct to be active in the sun and outdoors going with the hours you have left? How do you create fulfillment and an identity in so many short hours, in such a short period of time, when the sun is down and you're exhausted, And I've just come to the conclusion it's almost impossible to remain human in the system and to maintain a concept of yourself beyond your function as a worker or as an employee. You know, you just end up having so little time to be yourself to the two things that truly do bring you joy. Now I know this is not the case for anyone. Some people find work and jobs and inspire them and light of fire under their soul and push them towards really, really great things, and some people find it immensely enjoyable and fulfilling to be devoted to people and projects that are bigger than themselves in a sense of purposefulness and productivity. There's also that element of money, you know, in a world where we have to pay to exist, no wonder we've become so conditioned to a system that asks us to sacrifice, you know, the majority of our daily hours to work in an office of something we don't particularly love, just to afford the small pleasures in life, like rent. Like I mentioned, this dilemma between being a free spirit and embracing our youth or sacrificing these young years for full time employment is one I'm sure many of my listeners have experienced, especially if you are going through that transition right now. It might even be keeping you up at night. I don't know. But even if you don't have this experience, I think we can all recognize this intense societal pressure to enter into this system and the corporate world and work our lives and days away until we're sixty five retired, no longer have the bones of the stamina for the life that we actually wanted for ourselves. And when I started investigating this and the psychology behind the nine to five job. In our twenties, it started feeling even more startling and a pretty shitty deal that we've entered voluntarily into. And I have had this feeling recently, like at what point did I actually choose this life for myself and come to the conclusion it would bring me happiness? Like how much of that pressure was external or intangible? Me feeling this idealized equation for a perfect life whereby you know, you have a good job, that's the foundation and everything else kind of falls around it. But enough of my rant. Let's just get into the psychology behind full time work. We're going to talk about why a nine to five job is not ideal for making a living, burnout, exhaustion, and the struggle for fulfillment in a modern day capitalist society. So before we understand the psychological effects of the five day work week, we have to understand its history. So the truth is, this type of work schedule hasn't always been the standard in Australia or many places in the world. So basically, in the nineteen hundreds, factory workers they were known for being forced to work one hundred hour weeks or more, but Fortunately, after years of activists work and many people fighting the powers that be, change began, and now the nine to five workweek has kind of become a standard, and we've certainly been really lucky to have people from the past who fought for these labor rights and for more free time. However, I think many of us still believe we're not really getting the best deal. So there was a study recently. It was a worldwide study that had over three thousand individuals, all working those classic eight hours sometimes more work days, and finding showed that half of these individuals believe they can do their jobs using only five hour days. This means they think they'd be more productive if they worked a fewer hours instead of more, or a four day workweek instead of five, which really kind of poses the argument that working eight hour days in forty hour weeks aren't necessarily even effective. And further studies have also shown that those who work a nine to five job versus those who have flexible work hours, more days off, and greater emphasis on ledger, they're more likely to express symptoms of depression anxiety, They're more likely to laugh less, express less satisfaction with how they use their remaining time, and have fewer fulfilling relationships. According to this recent study that I read about, I think it's only around thirty percent of the US workforce is engaged in their work, so, in other words, they're passionate about their work and they feel strongly committed to their companies. But that leaves seventy percent of workers who are either not engaged or actively disengaged. So that's seventy percent of the population who have this work lifestyle who appear quite frankly, quite miserable, and not really engaged in what they're doing. And on average, we spend at least thirty five percent of our waking hours at work. And if we're not happy in our job, then it tends to have pretty far reaching impacts on other aspects of our lives, and it affects things like our relationships, our sleet, physical health, our ability to relax. So what is it about this system that creates such unhappiness? From a psychological perspective, I think it's important just to break it down from an evolutionary perspective to begin So, humans, they didn't evolve to work a nine to five job. We evolved as hunter gatherers, and our innate instincts, our minds, our bodies. They've evolved to suit this context, not that of an office. Our central nervous system, and many of the structures and features of our bodies, including our circadian rhythm, fight or fight system sensory systems, and cognitive features such as our attention, they've all adapted as a result of that evolutionary environment. So, for example, one of the primary jobs we used to have in a hunter gatherer society was obviously hunting, and this involved brief spurts of intense activity followed by large amounts of leisure time. Similarly, for those who rely primarily primarily on gathering food, this would have required kind of more time invested, but involved large amounts of physical activity rest time in between. And it was a lifestyle that brought about specific and instantaneous rewards, such as finding something edible. So both elements of this lifestyle have three important aspects that are no longer kind of present in the modern day work environment. So firstly, they have this specific task task based reward. You've got time outdoors and you're active, and you've got a greater amount of time for leisure as well. So our bodies and minds they were formed for these activities. They have evolved for environmental stimulation that is varied and involves active and external input from our surroundings, our genes. They're still expecting that we chase prey or collect roots and seeds. But human innovation, firstly, with the creation of agriculture and manufacturing and industry, it's really moved us away from our natural tendencies and rhythms. And this is why the discomfort and boredom of a nine to five job can be so profound and unsettling for so many of us, because we've forced ourselves into a lifestyle that is fundamentally opposed to what our bodies and minds have evolved to do. What's worse, I think instead of being outside, people now work in these large buildings. They're roughly tightly packed with people, technology, not much ventilation, and instead of being this tribal creature chasing after your next meal or working alone in small groups, humans have become cells and pretty unindividualized cells in a much larger organism, and it's an organism which has little use for their creativity and their individuality. Basically, our genes haven't had much time to evolve to this lifestyle. So working nine to five on small tasks and projects that rarely have much larger meaning, or you feel anyone can replace you, it doesn't really fit the logic that's hardwired into our DNA. Like I kind of mentioned, we've traded brief spurts of intense focus and activity for long days of continuous, monotonymous work. We traded skilled, knowledgeable work for this cog like activity. And we exist in concrete boxes with little time outside or a nature or as individuals as well. And it's really interesting because a lot of organizational psychology has shown that employers who are willing to adopt an evolutionary psychology approach to organizing their workplaces, they may drastically improve their workers overall physical and psychological health as well as their general productivity. So what impact does the nine to five have on our mental state and our psychological well being? So not just being asked to fit into a nine to five lisel, but also does the things we're not doing, the things that we aren't passionate about, and we don't really do things that fulfill us cognitively or creatively, And there are some pretty long term consequences of that. Firstly, we've got fatigue, burnout, depression, existential dread, just to name just some fun few and long hours they do cause fatigue, both physical and men. And that fatigue affects not just the last few hours of a workday, but all hours of the next day. So an employee who drags back to work after only a few hours of rest at home isn't going to be very productive in the morning. Then the next long day it ties them out even more, and this kind of punishing cycle begins. They're not going to be able to fulfill their other obligations in life or properly utilize their leisure time if they're exhausted, mentally, under or overstimulated and dealing with the pressures of the workplace and just life in general. And this is particularly pronounced if it's a big life change kind of shifting into that everyday habit, which it is for those in their twenties who are just entering full time work, and it's probably why we see so much burnout and dissatisfaction in that age group. So burnout, it can happen pretty fast and is projected into all areas of life, doesn't really help anyone maintaining a nine to five schedule. It doesn't help the individual or the employee who has a group of tired, exhausted, unfulfilled young professionals sparring for better things and greater pleasures of life. And it's not just the nine to five long working hours and blurred boundaries between work life and private life. They're pretty common amongst young professionals and for employees. There may be temporarily acceptable reasons for working longer days you expect positive career outcomes in terms of higher salary or intrinsic rewards. But long term this isn't emotionally or psychologically sustainable burnout. It can present as neglected personal care needs, dim detention, withdrawal to personalization, which I talked about in my episode with Kate, emptiness, emotional instability, and depression. And in the long term, how do you recover from repeated cases of burnout or do you just adapt and begin to detach and close off doors to other areas of your life that might be contributing to your schedule. Basically, I think what I'm trying to say is by trying to recover from the exhaustion of monotonymous office life, you might actually begin sacrificing other elements such as sleep and passion projects, and it's socializing to adapt because so much of your day is being taken up by your work, and it really only leads to you becoming a bit of a shell of yourself. And I found this quote that I think really captures this pattern of thought. So worktime actually is lifetime too, and I don't want to spend my lifetime only at work. And when I read that, it kind of sent me a little bit, maybe a bit scared, because it really does hit the nail on the head in terms of what we're giving up to work for a larger entity that might not even care about us, might not even know who we are. And a meta analysis of I think it's like two hundred over two hundred records of all these academic papers that had over one hundred eight hundred thousand participants, so think about that close to a million from thirteen countries. It demonstrated that longer working hours to have a positive relationship with occupational health problems and higher rates of depression and anxiety. And this is particularly the case for employees who report feeling unfulfilled by their projects and their role and your ability to enjoy your life beyond your workplace becomes intrinsically linked to your position as this kind of capitalist cog, and it strips you of your health and it strips you of your individuality. So this is the question, if the nine to five courses depression, dread, fatigue, burnout, why do young people feel psychologically pressured to submit to it? And we have a guest to explain this a little bit, and I'll welcome her in just a second, So welcome eron. Hello, how are you all going this fine day? Night? Yeah, lunch, evening, midnights, nicy podcast after Hours. No, that's not the theme of the show. We didn't agree on that. So Aaron is a good friend of mine. It's our one year friend anniversary around this time, around this time, And yeah, yeah, I think so. And you know, an avid listener of the podcast and also a bit of a nine to five expert. I don't know, I feel like you were the first one of our friends to really jump into that kind of way of living. I think I was. Yeah, yeah, I think there are a couple of other people. But I started my nine to five job in August last year, so that's almost a year and she was five, still doing union at the time. I was still doing UNI at the time, which is a terrible idea. If anybody ever says to you do a university degree and work nine to five Monday to Friday at the same time, don't don't. Don't listen. They are no friend. They are not your friend. Run in the opposite direction as fast as you can. Um tum. Who course is what you're doing? So I'm meeting a cookie by the way, Um, I was doing well. This is when I told myself it was fine. I was doing two courses at the time, and then I had to pick up another two to graduate in time to qualify for my other job, which will remain neighless secrets. It's secret secret. No sorry, guys. The spun the cat just took up to leave us. This is a very casual episode. I was like, I'm bringing on an expert, but really it's a let's get friendly in disguise. So let's get friendly. But we're talking about an errand providing commentary on the cat she's looking after. So you started in August last year. Yes, now it's almost August. It's almost been a year. I hate to remind you. I know your concept of time is My concept of time is shot, probably due to being in an office work slave, a work slave for a year. There's a lot of sorry, the jingling again, the cat, Please cut that, Please cut the jingles out. It's fine, nobody wants it. So yeah, Um, I've sat in a room in an office building breathing in other people's air for a year. How terrifying is that? But it's it's one of those things that I don't I think we've talked about this a lot, but being able to afford the lifestyle that you want. At one stage at UNI, I would go into the grocery store and I would really stress about what I was spending money on. And now I can go out for drinks with friends, I can treat friends, I can buy ubers. Yeah, and I do. I guess I try to still be do it all within reason because I'm not earning the largest amount of money. But it is nice and there is a certain amount of privilege associated with that. But I certainly I don't want to take for granted. But also, as I've said, I feel like it's good because you're kind of being like, oh yeah, let's talk about the positives because obviously it's not modern day slavery, like we really make it. Like I know, a lot of the early part of this show was me being like, fuck the nine to five, my life so hard, Like I get paid, you know, in the top two percent to do nothing. I don't do nothing. I think that I actually do quite a lot of work. But like you know, Errand's made a very good point, this is something you sign a contract voluntarily, like, yeah, you know, you're getting into your get with four things. It's suddenly the position I'm in at least just a lot better than a casual job that I used to work in that it doesn't really care about your health and well being. So the workplace that I'm in at the moment tries to, you know, make sure that their workers are looked after properly. And we have people advocating for our rights, and yeah, you know, we've got like I'm a member of the union, which I strongly encourage you all to be. All of the listeners. If you're not signed up to your union, definitely do that because they're the ones advocating for positive change in your workplace. Yeah. Yeah, it's a very socialist episode, I think, and I don't know. I also think we were talking because we had dinner before this, and we were talking like, I know, you can't really get into it because you don't want to get sued to whoever someone from your work was. Yes, I was about to say someone's name, but do you know who I was about to say that? Yeah? Um. But I also think that sometimes they don't always have your best interests at heart, Like you've had a pretty shitty experience whereby they were pretty standoffish about letting you be flexible, and it really kind of wrote raised those questions of like why am I being forced into a nine a nine to five five day work week when A I'm not even being productive. B it's really bad for my health. And see, you guys don't even need me here. Yeah. As so I'm I come from this standpoint as somebody with a mental illness. And so I worked five days in my job a year ago was spun creating noise. It's fun. So, as somebody with mental illness, I worked five days in my job a year ago when I was doing UNI, and then I dropped down to four days to do UNI, and my life became eminently so much easier and currently in my current job, I'm trying to do that. I'm nearly there. It took a lot of negotiating and a lot of advocating for myself, but I think you can probably attest to this. I already just feel so much better because I think there's a there's a huge concept of everybody always asks you your whole life where are you going to work? Like what are you going to do? What are you going to be when you grow up? Fucking hell, I hate that question every time you see that. I can't say that because they listen to this, but like, especially older people will often ask that, and it's like, why do I need to answer you? I'm twenty one years twenty two years old, Like I don't know. Also, it just puts this whole emphasis on like what are you going to do for work? Like work is your whole life? And I remember I told someone like I'm going to take a year off and they were like, oh, oh, what are you gonna do it? And And I was like, I'm going to do creative things like that would be really good for your resume. And then what are you gonna do afterwards? And I was like, well, I don't know, like just let me be, does let me exist? Yeah? Just so much, so much worth is put on to your productivity and what your career is going to be. Like, I've been listening to a lot of other podcasts. Of course this podcast Loyal Listener, Yeah, what do you mean you're listening to the fucking podcast. But I've listened to a lot of podcasts that are talking about finances and careers. I like, there's a beautiful, beautiful Facebook I love host out here out there in the world rather and it's basically says, um, what's your dream job question mark. I simply do not dream of labor. Yeah, And that's exactly That's exactly how I feel like. I really until I started having three days on the weekend for myself and four days during the week for work, I had no balance, Like, and if you're not, I'm sure that there's people with really amazing jobs out there that fulfill them and that's what they want to do. But I often sit at my desk and just think, oh, my goodness, what I would give to be outside, And I stay out the window and I go, why am I here? And I think it's like, there's so many skills that I've learned at work and all of that. And I think the more that you have a work life balance, the more going to work is something that isn't terrible. Yea. And so for me, like having flexible work arrangements and working part time has really helped. Do you But quick question, do you think you can have a flexible work life balance of five days of your life? Oh? It's absolutely not. I don't know. Bring on the four day work week. Honestly, whoever came up with this concept of having to work five days a week two days on the weekend is simply not enough to do. Like I describe it as, I have my day that brings me joy. I have my day of life admin and then I have my day to do whatever I want. Yeah. So like all of the stuff that like the relaxation, the laundry, Oh, I guess that's a life admen, But you know what I mean, like the stuff that's like you have to do like maintenance kind of stuff, look after your plants, look after my plants, hours of my life plans. But it's fulfilling, it is it is that is something I care about. And I also remember speaking of like you being at your desk, being like, I just want to go outside. I remember being terrified when you told me when you're working at your old job and that building. Yeah, you would say to me like, oh, it was bucketing down rain today. But I've made a promise to myself to always eat my lunch outside. So I went and sat outside. Yeah, And I was just sitting in the rain. Yeah, And I was like, oh my god, it sounds fucking terrible like you. Yeah. I mean the other thing I do, because I really don't enjoy sitting inside all day, is I eat lunch outside. I try to do that as often as I can, and I cycle to them from work. And I was saying recently to my housemaid, shout out tonight if you're listening him, that my favorite part of work now is not work, because work would never be my favorite part of my day, but actually cycling to and from work and doing exercise, because that's how I've built in looking after myself. When eight hours of the day, which in winter is all of your daylight, is gone, literally nothing. We live in camera and it's like sunsets at five, sunsets at five, So if you're working nine to five, you don't get daylight hours and so that's my motivation to exercise, is I cycled to and from work because I can, luckily, which is obviously not something that everybody can do, but that really really helps me and helps maintain my mental health. And I think the really interesting thing actually there's probably a direct correlation between nine to five and me actually realizing I have to look after my mental health, Like don't I don't know whether people remember, yeah that when I started my job, I like suddenly, like my ninety five job, I suddenly got very into like running because I was like, I have to walk. It was a big thing. What are you doing? Because we used to live around like literally like I'm going to each other and what are you doing? Can I come over and be like I'm on a walk? Yeah, just because I needed to breathe fresh air and be outside. Um, because it's just a big thing. And I had this realization today when I was leaving work and just quickly disclaim, up, we I don't know about you. I love my job like I love the people I work. Okay, very very so glad that you feel that way. I love people at my work, but I don't think I share the same sentiment. I go to work to get paid. Yeah and hopefully one day, Well me too, Like yeah, like it's not I wouldn't go if I was a volunteer. Are people who would go to work if they if they weren't being paid, because that is they've been brainwashed. That's why simple explanation. It was like people, no, don't get it. It's also like people who volunteer like in old age. I'm like, I get it, but I'm also havingly I don't know. I'm like you with your whole life. Now you're retired, you're gonna go work for free because you can't do anything other than work. I actually really like volunteering though, but if it's like I don't know, maybe I'm just doing what I haven't tried yet. Yeah, I think it depends what volunteering you're doing. I find a lot of satisfaction in volunteering because I know that what I'm doing actually contributes. But is it like you're outside because you often do like tree planting volunteering. Yeah, always, not always. So I did volunteering for a while where I worked in like a Vinney's, like an equivalent of a Viney's overseas, and I loved that that was amazing. That was a lot because of like human connection as well and being able to talk to people. Okay, and I volunteer. Yeah, and I volunteered for a group called Sea Change who are nonproprofiting camera and I do that because I like, I like it and I think I like them. The feeling of contributing to being part of a community, that that's like a big value for me. Yeah, so community is another big thing we should talk about. Yeah, definitely, Um, but yeah, I don't know. And I think that's probably what I do enjoy about work is having like a network of people. Yeah, That's that's what I was saying about. Like I really love the people I work with, Like the things I do feel somewhat meaningful. I have responsibility, and I think that is really important. By the way, not to interrupt you, but if you are working in a nine to five job and you have the ability to change where you are, and you are not feeling fulfilled where you are, just move find somewhere that does fit. Yeah, if you have that flexibility. So what Aaron's all about? Like, I am a notorious job quitter, Like if I don't like where I'm working, quit quit quick. Like as you should. Life is too short if you have the option too, life is way too short to sit in a job. Yeah, and especially I think while you're young and you don't have a mortgage, you don't have kids, you don't have looming financial responsibilities, why not? Yeah? And this is the thing about like being in your twenties, Like a lot of us do have that freedom, and it's like why do we submit to something that doesn't work for us? And I have that Like my friends used to always joke with me, like you're a notorious like oh, how many jobs are you working now? Like where are you working now? Gema? Because I would constantly change. But I had this really very strong feeling like right now, well does my oyster? Yeah? So much freedom? Why would I stay in a workplace that I don't feel valued in working hours, I don't feel valued in you know, it just isn't worth it. And it's not worth it when you're young and you have so much health and stamina and opportunity and friendships. Yeah, to just sacrifice that. Yeah, And this is that obviously there are people in positions to not who can't do that. Yeah. And then in which case I think I had an amazing conversation with my psychologists the other day about the concept that if you do have to be where you are and like that's something that's important to you because you need to grow your income or for whatever reason, you know you maybe you do have financial responsibiy. Yeah, yeah, And it's always as well, there are people who work to support what they love in other aspects of their life, so they'll work to be able to do other things that they really like. And I think that's you know, that's obviously a value as well, if you do have that kind of balance. But um, my psychologists, I'm not going to name her, but shout out huge shout out to you. I will I will tell it. I she'd like it, recommend it to our patients. We can get some more the listeners. Many people in Canberra public services, I would say the majority of our friends. I would say almost all of our friends work in jobs that either serve the public service or are the public service. So even if they are like not working in a department or like a branch or a group like that's what my job is, primarily serving the public service. So you really like it gets ingrained in me. And there's a lot of Actually there benefits, Like there's a lot of flexibility in the public service, and I'm able to go down to photos so weak at the moment because of the stability with that. But anyway, so she was talking about this concept of happiness. If you are not somebody who loves to work and work as you're alive, happiness is not just going to strike you at work like a lightning bolt from above, and you're not just going to sit there and become super deliriously happy. Yeah, it's not going to happen. And all my life, I think because of the conversations that everybody has around careers and work and what you're going to be and finding filment through what you do, I always thought that if I found a job that fit totally right, I would just experience insurmountable happiness, like a dream job, like a dream. Oh my good comfort of a dream. Abolish it. Abolish it, concept of a dream job. Hate it. Because she literally said, even if you work in something that you're completely fulfilled in, it is scientifically impossible to be happy eight hours of that day. Yeah. True. You can't yeah, or to be stimulated or to be stimulated or not bored or bored constantly, and even if you are stimulating, we stressed, Yeah, you can't keep your attention for eight hours of a day. It's literally scientifically impossible unless you're on drugs. Yeah, even then you still go to the bathroom. Maybe not, I don't know what you're taking. But and for me that just I found it such a concept. And she said, you've got to create moments of happiness in your day at work. So for me, I like cycle to him from work. That's a huge bit of my happiness. I have lunch with my friend, shout out, lindsay love you, friend of the show, a friend of the show. I have lunch with her almost every day. I love it. Half an hour to just chat shit. Yeah about the world. Yeah, not the public service though, we never chat about the public service. Never, totally. No, we would never talk about work on our lunch break. Not abolish work. Yeah, actually you shouldn't talk about where we shouldn't we had Sorry just to interject, you had this moment. No, it's like we were having dinner, just like hanging out, and we got into like work chats, and I came and we haven't seen each other for like a week. Gust I was sitting on the couch and I got into work chat and I really had a moment where I was like, I always promise myself, did you ever do this when you're a kid, You're like, I'm not going to work at nine to five? Like, oh, people who talk about work on their three days, they're still late. And then there I was I have never ever pictured myself sitting in front of a computer in an office, and I've been doing that for a year of my life. Wow. And I have many moments during the day where I sit there at my computer and I go, what the heck is going on here? What am I doing? What am I doing? But you know, it's skills gaining the world. It's the way of the eighty is the way of the world. It's one of those things. And I don't think anybody preps you for it. No, well I actually think maybe they do. Like school kind of preps you for it, think about like going to school when you're But that's the thing I had this thought, and not in a good way that it preps you for it, but like a whole life, were conditioned to give up the hours of our day to something that we might not always see a purpose in like you go to school from eight thirty three thirty and then you know, go to work from nine to five. Like I used to fall asleep in school classes. Yeah, I'm sure you would have. You would have been so bored. How can you how can you sit down that long? Anyway? So in terms of creating happiness in your workday, so you don't feel like that like me sitting at my desk going what the fuck am I doing? In existential having an existential crisis every single moment, you know, She was like, go get coffee if that's something that you like. Do something in the builds connection if that's something you like, you know, And I really I really appreciate that concept. And like going for a little walk in the afternoon, walk do it? Go for a little walk? Who's stopping you? You know? And let's talk about that. So that's actually really good skills, like really good habits to form, because I feel like I don't have that right now, Like, yeah, I often skip my lunch breaker, often don't go outside. I absolutely not. I drive to work and then today I saw the sunset and I like almost cried because I was like, wow, real existence. But let's talk about making the most of your off time because you do a really good job at that, do I Yeah, you do it. You're so good at it. I always like you just prioritize your friends, you do things that make you happy. Yeah, Like she works nine to five and she still has time to volunteer, Like, yeah, I've volunteered for about six years. Well, and it's what you value, right, I don't value work, So I think I do put a lot of time and energy into doing things, like on almost every day that I work, because I work four days and I'm at the moment on two of those four days. So fifty percent I have a set activity that I know I will be doing every week, and then the other fifty percent of that time I usually feel with spending time with friends. So I go to poll on Tuesday nine, which I love. So that's like my first day back at work. Absolutely heinous, gross, But I get to go to poll on the evening, and that's something I really like. I tried to get her into spin classes, but we tried once. We tried to spin On Wednesday. I cycle, so why would I spe when I cycle? But I still loved it, still loved it, of course, yeah, and then on Thursday, I play netball and it's like social netball, which is amazing and I've never pictured myself playing netball either, but it's really good because I get to spend time with a whole bunch of people that I really like and they're super lovely. And then on Friday, I usually do something really fun with my friends. Yeah, normally we get drunk or I go out for drinks. They're Actually that's an interesting topic, people drinking to forget the fact that they have to work five days a week, because I think that is a big thing to talk about. That's a big trend, especially in camera where a lot of people have disposable incomes and no children so and a job that means that they have both days on the weekend off. Yeah. So it's also a lot of young people, Like maybe I feel like most of the people who are listening, but like it's a lot of people who are like under the age of thirty, moved it for the aps and have just come into heaps of money off and moved out of home, and it is a huge thing. Also, the big thing is if you're young, like this is meant to be your time to really figure yourself out. If you're working all the time. When you do have time off, there's this huge compulsion to be like I need to have fun. I need to be fun, I need to like do things, make memories. And often that's like, well I need to be drunk, or like what's the socialize right and camera, there's not much to do if you're okay, we're not really outdoorsy people, like we have a lot of friends who like you ride me back, but like we have friends who are like, go to the snow u ye, tenaya, Lucy, they always go skiing, they always cycle meg. Yeah. I think there's a lot of people who do the weekend activities to require traveling and then your whole weekend this spank camping. I wish I could be that person. I think we should work on it. Maybe, um, hey, we're going to Braidwood this weekend. We're going to Braidwo. That's making the most of your week. But this is the we need We got off well actually quickly please sorry. We often get off tracking our conversations, in case you haven't noticed. That's the thing, right, And if you have three days a weekend, three days on your weekend, you can have a day going on a little trip, and your other days you don't only then have one day to get your whole life together and then go back to work on Monday. You have two days to get your life back together and go back to work. Or you could take a night time. You could go for a night. I mean you could do that. I guess if you go on. They got two days a week. Yeah, two days a week. Just basically what we're saying is so much more opportunity just to do more things. Yeah, And like Aaron was staying and like we kind of went off this point a little bit, But I do really want to talk about it because I think you raised a really good point. When everyone's young, everyone's been forced to these lives that they don't necessarily love. You've kind of cut short your young years, Pature. I've become like a fifty year old. I'm sitting here on my couch with my cat. Yeah, am I drinking tea? Drinking tea? Am I fifty? What what happened to my like twenty years? But this is the thing, because you always have that like what happened to my is? What happened to my young years? Where were they? What did I do Yeah, and linked yeah, and they was gone. And now I've sitting in an office. Yeah, I know. Now you sit in an office. And I think that is a thing that really like because this is the time to be young. And like we're talking about psychology here, our brains don't really want to be pushed in. We're still developing, so our brains are seeking new stimulation, new memories, new experiences. So you often see like there's nothing to do on the weekend. A lot of people have disposable income. Go out and get drunk, go out and drink and forget that, you know, and then you have to go to work in the day. Yeah, and the days then you know, it's awful because then you get really hungover and then not your whole Sunday is scorn anyhow, So now you only have a one day weekend. Yeah, so you know there is I actually there is actually a formula to making your days good. What is it? I've told you about this whole told me really Okay, so again sting my beautiful psychologist shout out um. She said that when I started having my Mondays off, she said, Okay, that's great. Don't spend all day on the couch resting, because whilst rest is great, you need to do something that makes you feel fulfilled. And so she said that you need to do something on that day that brings you joy, So something that you really like. So that could be like spending time with friends. Or I often like do a little bit of planting, like a new little plant, plant some seedlings, painting, painting, reading, reading, Um, something that's practical, so prepping dinner for next week, laundry. I often try to clean every Monday so the house is nice and clean for the week ahead. Um. You need to do something that's cognitive, so it like eaches a scratch in your brain. So easy. One is watching a documentary but scrabble crosswords crosswords scrabble, yes, I haven't thought of that one words. But or like researching a topic that you're really into, or you for qualification, you want podcast about something scientific or that's kind of my role of interest is like science and the climate and stuff like that. Or like doing a bit of reading. You read the I read heaps, you read it so much. You read really intellectual stuff. I don't think so. I think I just read like really weird novels that are like kind of whack. But you were talking about reading that. Oh yeah, So my friend got like a New Yorker subscriptions and like when he's finished with them, he gives them to me. And I read this really insanely good article about the rise of a variant cancer and like rural Alabama and like the intersection between that and like medicaid and how like, yeah, this is a real detourl but it's a really good art. That's that's something that's cognitive, right, Yeah, And it was actually was really fulfilling because I read it right before bed, and I felt like I had done something that challenged my brain rather than just pressing a button or the excels a sheet. And then you've got to do something that's physical, so exercise, So go for a walk. I love going for a walk up a hill where I live at the moment, and if you time it right, you can see a little sunset. Oh she's gorgeous. It's like a combination of joy, combination of joy, all the others, all the others. So something that brings you joy, something that is practical, Yeah, something that's cognitive, and something that's physical. There you go, there's the equation. That's the equation. So if you do all of those things in your day, then you'll feel better. You'll feel better. But I don't want to say you'll be happy, because happiness is a construct, but it is that really helps me and that makes me feel like i've because productivity, sometimes, I think can there's a very narrow field of what productivity actually is, and I think sometimes there's a big pushed to be production and what does productivity look like? And the rise of that girl, oh yeah trend on Instagram, which we could talk about ours, so we won't going well, we'll do it on our other episodes. Yeah, but that's also tied to like professional success and like having everything put together, and like a big part of that is like having the job or like working towards the job. And I think what we're really talking about here is like if we took the job out of the equation or the nine to five job, would everything really fall apart or would everyone get a little bit happier? Like universal basic income. Just look at the studies done with the universal basic income and how those that want to work work, people who find joy in working work, and people who don't get to pursue what they actually love. And I feel like everyone falls into place of doing things that, like, you know, that they would enjoy like, and that would actually they'd be good at, they'd be specialized at. You would have more productivity and efficiency, I think because you wouldn't have a bunch of people who feel compelled to work but not motivated to work, which is a huge thing. I'm sure you've seen like so many people who are like, Oh, I've got to go to work. And when they get to work, do you really think they're going to be They're like, yeah, I'm at work, Like, let me put in everything I've got, let me really commit to this. No, they're not going to flip and do that, especially when you're in your twenties or in your thirties, or when you're young and you have so much other shit that you want to do. And I just think like, yeah, I just don't think that it necessarily works. And I think with what you were saying about that equation, you've got these four things you need to prioritize. Do you find it easier to do it on days when you're not working? On days when you are, Oh, I don't think about it on days I work because I simply do not have time there. We go because by the time I have woken up, yeah, got myself to work, being at work, come home, I've got what three or four hours left in the day. Yeah, and most of that is spent eating dinner or having to cook dinner. So you're home by five. You want to be in bed by ten. Yeah, yeah, you want to be in bed by tenn feel like absolute crap the next one. You've got a shower, You've got a tidy up, do whatever you need to do in your house. So care of yourself, take care of yourself, eat so well. I'm at the end of the day often, as somebody who is a little bit introverted, I often just sit and watch television because I'm like, I do not have the mental capacity to do anything else that is slightly challenging. Yeah, or you know, you go and do something that is good, like you go to netball. There's your physical thing and there's your joy thing. Not really practical, but yeah, like physical and joyful. There's two things that are really nice, somewhat cognitive. But it's also like, but then you have less time to take care of yourself completely. So it's this whole thing. If it's like when eight hours of your day are gone and the first three hours two hours are spent just fucking getting ready and going to work, Well, I lie in bed for an hour because I literally don't want to go to work. Oh terrible. I always get my large take past seven, but I get up at seven forty, Yeah, because I wait to wake up and then be like, oh, I get a snooze a little bit, because if I wake up at seven forty, I'm going to be like, it's just not going to go. Well, yeah, I've been it'd really been cutting it finner and finn Like today I woke up at seven fifty and I was like, yeah, for forty minutes to get out of the door, Like I've actually I managed to perfect it down to fifteen minutes getting out of the door. At one stage when I just was so sad about going to work, I couldn't get out of bed, which is not that's not a good space to ban and I'm not there anymore. When I first started working my ninety five job, and there have been occasions as well that I have literally had to like I've not been able to get out of bed in the morning and I've slept in and then I've woken up at eleven and I've had to call work and have a chat to that would be like, Hey, this is going on. My mental health is not great at the moment, and I'm luckily they've been really understanding. But how much of that do you think was tied to work? Do you think it was? Just like I think it really it really was tied to work, and it was tied to the fact that I had no time for myself and I was just so exhausted and my mind was just not able to cope at all. And I think as well, like if you have a mental illness, like I find it really important to have time to prioritize just looking after myself because sometimes looking after yourself is quite difficult and sometimes it does take time to do things that other people could do quite quickly, you know. Um, so part of that is like if I have more time on the weekend, it is easier to do stuff like that. Yeah. No, that's a really big thing. And I'm glad that you kind of recognize that and kind of took control and like, yeah, this needs to change. But it's you know, and you're really lucky that you they were somewhat Yeah, No, I was really lucky alessible around that ilexible. Yeah, but do you think if you weren't working your nine to five, what do you think you would be doing? Was that too much of a scary question? No? Um, sorry, I'm taking a moment to think. I had a concept to one stage really wanting to be able to do wolfing, which is like working on an organic farm wolfing woo f maybe just want to fum and so basically you work on an organic farm for free in exchange for like shelter and food. Wow, this is a real socialist episode, universal basing income free. Yeah, well because I was. I think I really enjoy doing things where they're super practical and whilst I did not grow up in a farm in buy any shape or form. I love plants, which you know she does. I own a lot of house plants and staring at them all right now it's about fifteen. They are very hard to miss. They are in your face. Well there's fifteen on that one table alone, I know the whole just screw book around and there's even more. But um, yeah, I just love the concept to like maybe live in a commune. Yeah, oh gosh, that's a terrible thing to say. No it's not, it's not at all. But why this? I feel like it's very like no, basic, No it's not. But if it's basic, we have to also examine, like why there's so many people want to do, Like how many people listening have those fantasies dropping everything and going and living in a van or traveling the world or moving to a new country, or like living in a commune. I think it's super stigmatized because it's the absolute other end of the spectrum from what a couple of society expects of you. Yeah, and so I find that sigmatized, like you're trying to be like unique, Like look at you go. It's like, actually, maybe you're just doing the thing that's right for you and you just are scared that you can't do it. Well, who who is meant to be living in an office? No? One not living? Sorry? Well practically yeah, if you consider you're spending how much five percent of your waking hours at work, But that does not include you know, the time's been getting ready for work, the commute, Like I'm what like an hour commute every day? Oh my goodness, Like I have to leave thirty minutes earlier, and then it takes me thirty minutes to get home. It's another hour. Then you have to get ready for work. Then you have to depress from work, and you have to have a shower, and then you know, if you want to go to the gym. Like, there's just all these things that become so much more limited, Whereas if you worked in a commune, you really have a lot more time just to actually exist and know yourself. And I think that's so important. I'm what working in an office does not do allow you space or time to be an individual, being an individual, because that's the last thing that capitalism will want. Yeah, can you imagine the world before apart if people actually realize that. And again, if this is your goal in life, I'm not dissing it, but moving up in a workplace, what is it like, what is it going to serve you? What are you going to get from that apart from like a weird narcissistic sense of power and money and money obviously. Yeah, I thought this as well, because I think when I was in high school, I was really like, all I want to do is make keep some money and be super successful. And everyone admire me. But why did you want to do that? Because I didn't have anything else that I thought would bring me meaning wow. So when I that's the thing, because I was like, this is what I've been taught will bring me, meaning this is what I imagine. People admire people who were rich, people admire people who were successful, and I'm so dependent on people admiring me. And then I got to UNI and about my second third year, I was like, really restructured that whole ideal, and I just had this moment where I was just like, that is actually not going to work for me. It's just not going to work for me because I'm a bit of a hypocrite because I do work nine to five now, don't know, but your life goal to become the CEO? Hell no, exactly, Hell no, you're not a hypocrite. You just exist within a capitalist or something. But also, I'm working because I know that I need money to go off and do the things that I want to do. And I think I've also been able to do other stuff alongside it, like I do this podcast, like have heaps of time for other things in my life. But yeah, I think that that was a huge thing that I had in my mind like this is what I need for my life, like this is what I want, And then I had to completely rethink it. And I used to always be like, oh, I'm imagine people who like, you're just going to be a bum all day. I was very conservative. I'm not now. Obviously that's discussed in the last episode. Yeah, yeah, done a one eighty. But I really think it's like restructuring your priorities. And I think a lot of people hit that point where they have that conundrum. And why do you think people have a midlife crisis? Yeah exactly, That's what I mean, Like because quarter life crisis is a quarter life crisis because you realize that, like what you're doing, what's it? Actually? I think actually quickly COVID has had a huge, huge, like generated a huge societal shift into wow, okay, life's actually quite short. Yeah, life is really uncertain. We don't know what's going on, So you better do something that you actually enjoy. Yeah, family, spend time with spend time with family. And I actually think that as well. And also just like how many workplaces, you know, how much we realize that actually you could take time off, oh, that you could work from home quickly, could be flexible half pay leave with half pay? What was that? I don't know when that's available to you, but it's a bit of a thing in the aps. If you take leave, take leave with half pay if you can afford it, because basically for that day of leave or days of leave, you will get half your pay. But that means you get twice as much leave. Oh, if you can afford it. If you can afford it. Concept. I didn't know that was something people could do until like eight months into working in this job. I want to do that. I don't get leave. You don't get leave. Are you a your contractor well, yeah, I just get I'm not on a permanent contract. Yeah, so I'm technically casual but I work well, but I don't know. But I on a perpose any permanent basis working nine to five. Oh my goodness. But I think it's just because I started out there as someone who was like just there as like a support person, like as a researcher, and then I got like promoted, not promoted, But that's how they get you. I love my workplace, but like it's not the workplace that I don't like, it's the concept of the work life. Yes, that's a really good thing to distinguish. Well, I truly and I have had a serious existential breakdown about this before now in front of my mom and my brother, where I literally lay on the kitchen floor and I cried because I was like, why can I not simply receive money for existing? Yeah? Why why do I have money? Why do I need money? And why do I have to work to a gidst? And I can, like, I can hear the economic bros shouting at me as I say this, shut up, bradsh something lame like that, But why like why, yeah, why do humans like we've created obviously this you should do. Yeah, but why why did it? Like, why didn't we choose it? I don't think about me existing actually requires dollar dollar bills? Yeah? Nothing, right, nothing? It obviously facilitates things like healthcare and so I'm going to live. But then again, why does that require dollar dollars? Does that require dollar dollar bills? Yeah, it wouldn't. Well, once upon a time, it wouldn't have. I mean, Barter, you also would have died at thirty five, But I also would have died. Oh, I would have died very early on. I got sick as a very young child, I would have been killed off early. Oh we do not condone infanticide on the school. No, no, no, no no, I was sorry, no, but you're right, like, why does everything require money? And that's what I think we were really getting out. What's the pressure? The pressure is money. The pressure is two things actually, like kind of what I was saying, the pressure to we need to be to be conforming and to be doing what you think is going to give you meaning and work as what has given so many generations of people meaning because that was really a necessity. And also money and money require allows you to do other things. But it's like that, it's like another equation where it's like, at what point do you not even have the time to spend the money that you are earning because you wanted to spend money on things that you like? And at what point are you just accumulating wealth? And for who was that going to go when you're dead? Where's that going to go when you're dead? And if we throw into this the good old little climate crisis working in the background, if we only have like have a much amount of time that we have left, which probably not a lot before things really hit the fan, hit the fan. Am I going to spend twenty of the best years that we have left on this planet as human beings before we go extinct? Sitting in an office staring at a computer screen like an episode of Black Men. We are living in an episode of Black Mirror. We really are. And seriously, I'm like, so, I mean, if this is a motivation to anybody quit your job, are you going to quit your job? Look, I need to figure out what I want to do that is not working nine to five, and then I will right now and I'm locked in the job that I'm in right now requires a certain period of time. Yeah, to do things in. So to do things in it's like a set a cent contract will say yea, So it's kind of like but if you have the opportunity, also if there's younger people who are like because I remember last year I had this whole thing. I was like, I just want to get a normal job, but I just want to work nine to five, and I thought that was going to make me happier. I was like, I just want to do it like that. No, no, no, no, no. Spend as much time as you can on a center link. If you have that option or be just like doing other things, working jobs that don't you know, might be different hours, but like are a lot more suitable for your lifestyle. Having a nine to five job fitting into that lifestyle doesn't actually bring meaning. It doesn't make you a more mature person. You don't need to rush to grow up and fit into that because you just give away so much of your freedom. And even though you might have been told your whole life that that's something to aspire to and work towards, sometimes it's just not. It's just not. And you know, the grass is always grower on the other side. But yeah, exactly, that's what obviously, But if you seriously, like seriously consider what is it that brings you meaning and value, enjoy and enjoy. Yeah, for probably eighty percent of people it is. It is not working in an office. No, um, it's not for me. It's not for you. Yeah, oh it is. There we go, there's one hundred percent out of our sample of two. So obviously lessons peer reviewed research. Yeah, literally peer reviewed because we are peers. We need to say goodbye because we have recorded forty five minutes of this. But we hope, well I hope especially that This was kind of an informative look into what it's like transitioning into nine to five work when you're in your twenties, the psychological shifts and changes that you undergo, and yeah, what it means for your health, what it means for your sanity and your sense of self, and why it's probably not all it's cracked up to be. And yeah, I think it's just a good discussion of the pressures that you face to fit into that mold. Yeah, even if it's against your own well being. Yeah. So thanks Aaron, Thanks for having me. No, I love a good chat about that work. Yeah, no more work chat, No more work chat, no more work again. Can we ban them? I think we should. I think we definitely should. Anyhow, I hope you enjoyed this episode. We'll have a new episode next week. It's the Psychology of the Breakup. And yeah, spicy, spicy, it's the episode. Oh yeah, it's juicy. Indeed, everyone's giving me a knowing look. But thanks for tuning in. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook, and subscribe on Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks so much.