Dr. J: Giving Michael Jordan the GOAT Blueprint & Saving the NBA

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Speaker 1: Man, Man, right there is flying, ain't he.

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Speaker 2: Docu?

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Speaker 3: You remember kind of watched it as you got on on the pic right there. Yeah, that's a rolex. That's a roly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that should be a rolex. He's playing them before cool. That was in my third year.

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Speaker 4: What was the shade?

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Speaker 5: You remember the shades?

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Speaker 2: Cardier?

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Speaker 5: Cardier?

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Speaker 2: I got a shaves upstairs. I still got him, that's all right?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, h.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.

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Speaker 7: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back all the smoke LA All Star twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 2: Bro.

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Speaker 5: I really like your outfit today.

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Speaker 2: Bro.

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Speaker 5: Thanks, I'm a fan of that. I like it. I appreciate you.

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Speaker 1: We got some sponsors in the building today that made this happened. This episode is presented by money Line. We haven't heard that, man, They're back.

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Speaker 5: Huh. Welcome back money Line.

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Speaker 1: Download the app and moneyline dot com to learn more money Line, Make money Easy, and obviously shout out our favorite one of our favorite sponsors, Draft Kings, in the building made it out here.

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Speaker 5: Good to see everybody. Jack.

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Speaker 1: We were working on this one for a minute, or at least I have. I've been on him constantly. Every time I see him, we'll talk and then come on doc one day. You gotta just come sit down with us, and he's finally here. Man, four time MVP, two time ABA Champ, one time NBA Champ. You know, we grew up idolizing MJ. MJ grew up idolizing this man. Welcome to the show, doctor J.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. Happy to be here, man, good to be here, Good to see you.

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Speaker 5: I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: New documentary out right now, Soul Power, The Let of the A B A is out now on Prime. Actually primes in the building to shout out Prime, We're gonna talk A B A N B A.

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Speaker 5: And just life. I like that, Let's get to it.

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Speaker 2: I like that.

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Speaker 1: Ralph Sampson was passionate about how you should be the logo. Take a look at this clip and you.

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Speaker 6: Guys probably agree that the most psychonic. They always say who's the goat? I don't think to go to somebody that is somebody that plays it. But they transition the game that everybody wanted to be like who is that Doctor Jay?

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Speaker 2: I want to be like doctor Jay. Mike wanted to be like doctor J.

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Speaker 6: Everybody wanted to be like jeous And you can go back to any film you want to and see who dunking on somebody in traffic to Jewis. So the league should change the logo the.

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Speaker 3: Julius I would I would love that he got he got a sick logo, he got a crazy sick logo.

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Speaker 6: But everybody, I mean, the league was bad. Julius played with the Virginia Squires. I used to go watch you can see it on TV and watch in Virginia.

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Speaker 2: But he was the bad boy.

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Speaker 1: In a day and age where unfortunately, homage is not paid enough. I feel like, I feel like there's not a ton of respect for what came before these days. But when you hear something like that from up here, what.

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Speaker 5: Does that mean to you?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a great compliment. I think it's kind of unfortunate that every time you try to get somebody to rise to another level to be recognized, somebody gotta go. So you know, this would involve Jerry West not being there anymore. That's probably the only complicated thing about that. Otherwise, you know, you have two guys up then you can have two logos or what have you. I mean, I would be for it, because you know, I'm well into my seventies and you know, We're losing guys every year in mass and you know, the respect aspect of it though, Yeah, has recognized me, and you know, I'm the Slam Dunk Champions logo or person a record, and there's probably some other smaller things along the way. So this logo thing, I think it was generous of Ralph, very thoughtful. Probably not gonna happen because of what I said the first time. You know, if somebody comes like, somebody gotta go. And you know Bill Russell, who was one of my heroes and role models, you know he said I he said, I keep it a circle of about fifty and if I add somebody, somebody got to go. Yeah. You know, so he stated that way back when, and it really applies to now.

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Speaker 1: You were once considered the face of the league, and I feel like this league is in a transition of the Lebron's and KT's and stuff kind of moving on and the younger generation coming through. Do you think that is important to have a face or are you comfortable with a handful of guys kind of leading the charge.

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Speaker 2: I think when when I was the face, as you say, I wasn't really thinking about that or or playing to that. You know, I was just the best. I was doing the best of being myself, you know, being the person that my mom raised and that my and I was representing my community, representing my family. So the league and being the face of the league was very secondary. You know, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't think about that. You know, I wasn't trying to act. So when you fast forward and you come to now, you know, I think a group of players is the is the way to go. The fact that we have, you know, the majority of our best twenty five players coming from places around the world. You know, I don't think you should identify one and say, well, this guy is the face of the league. He's carrying it, because there is no one guy carrying it.

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Speaker 1: RH agree. I'm gonna read a quote from Rick Berry. People say to me, I couldn't play with these guys today, I said, and I say, you must be on drugs.

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Speaker 5: You understand how much better I would be.

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Speaker 1: If I were playing today, no strength training coach, no trainers, no dietitians. Obviously there's always comparison some areas, and we're not going to compare players, but obviously playing styles are much different.

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Speaker 5: How do you think your game would have held up today.

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Speaker 2: I agree with Rick, you know, I mean, you can't play unless you're confident in yourself. And it's not to put down others, but you know, self belief is paramount, you know, for you to just have a chance. So if I was out there today, and you know, my nephew always reminds me when certain things happen in certain games, particularly when the ABA is not recognized, you know, and they's not saying this guy the youngest to do this and the first to do this or whatever. And I said, well, you know, if you go back to some of those ABA stats, I mean that that last Finals, I mean, you know, I was amped up, and you know I started the game with forty well, started the series with forty five, came back the second game had forty eight, you know, and then we kind of won going away with the dem Nuggets and you know, they were the best team in the league. They had beaten US, you know, multiple times. So do you go by statistics or you just go by you know, how you feel afterwards. And the statistics are legitimate because you know a lot of people in their job or non job depends on on their stats. So the stats that were posted those years, those those first five years or whatever. All of them got duplicated the next eleven years in the NBA. But you know, some of them are gone forever unless they get resurrected. And you know, hopefully Soelth Soul Power would do some of that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I have a question. If you play today, would you rock the fro or braids?

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Speaker 2: It's got that's a good good because I don't know what braids feel like. You can tell you pulling on your scout braids? Matter of peer pressure or is that just personal preference?

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Speaker 5: I think personal pressure.

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Speaker 3: Some some people want to be like others, but something some people's personal preference. Yeah, some people. A lot of people are following it because a lot of people doing it. But some people just do it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well what about your crew? They say, Man, you know you gotta throw we all got braids, you gotta come around.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's that's how a lot of my friends are. We all got braid, we get braids.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I gotta.

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Speaker 1: I got a quick question though, because we're gonna get a little later. But I want to know, like off seasons now or so, and I have kids and it's a year round thing. Now for kids, which I which I definitely don't like, but obviously professional too. It's so regimented with strength training, your dyet. This is even in the off season. What were your off seasons like?

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Speaker 2: Unless I was injured, I was not in the weight room. I went in the weight room even during the season. It was just for rehab, you know. So I never wanted to try to get muscle bound. And you know, my a lot of my game was finesse and quickness and flexibility. So I always tried to stay flexible. And you know, if I did weight, it was lightweight, fast reps. So so that's different than you know, what you see a lot of people do and what you see and what you know some trainers try to have their players do. But yeah, would it be different today, You know, maybe you'd have to keep with whatever the pattern is. You know, I mean look at Lebron's longevity, and you know a lot of that is like Rick Barry said, you know, these these all these things that are available. You know, I saw it one time, you spending five million dollars just on this health and wellness in the off season or whatever. We ain't have five million to spend and just imagine.

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Speaker 3: You can get shots in your knees every summer and bring your knees to feeling brand new before the season.

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Speaker 1: Yes, they doing that. Now, were you guys playing pick up? Would you just relax for a few months and put the ball down? Where'd you run the beats Hills?

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Speaker 2: Like? What kind of hell I did? I did? I did five years of prom pro Summer league, So I did. I did the Ruggle League from age twenty one to twenty five, and then twenty six. You know, I have those knee braces on, and I was feeling it with the ten nighters, and I said, I can't go out in the concrete anymore. Much as I love to be out there, I love to be, you know, playing for free. And you know, mistakes really didn't get registered anywhere. People sitting at the court side their feet on the court, you know, and they just they're just looking and it just gave you energy that you know, I mean, you don't know where it came from the guy. It had to come from them, uh. And it was uniquely different than you know, playing a structured game like we did in college or even with our pro teams or whatever. That freelance piece and I think, you know, you probably only played freelance so long because you know, coach got to have his say so so fortunately, uh, you know, I had pretty good coaches who you know, gave me a little bit of room to operate, as they say, especially in my first five years.

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Speaker 4: Shout out to old Regimel. I saw him last night. He ran up on me too.

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Speaker 3: He thought we were starting on him for the Kaitlyn take on our show that day. I told him, I say, Reggie, though, you gotta admit everybody in the world thought she was going to say a better player than Peyton Pritchett. I'm just sorry, bro, you know, I just I wouldn't know.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't even seen it was funny to me until we shot the segment. I hadn't I didn't know Kaitlyn Clark was right next to him and the next way she went to a booble face when he said it, like yes, yes, yes.

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Speaker 3: Shout out to og for coming up with this game factor fiction. We're gonna do factor fiction with the ABA versus the NBA. All right, Og Factor Fiction, you, along with the rest of the A B A Birth, the Tunnel Fit Walk, you know, all the players stopping the tunnels with their fist.

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Speaker 4: Now get pictures. Didn't y'all start that back in the day?

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Speaker 2: Clearly, man, clearly, clearly. I don't know how those people got back there, yeah, but they were always back there in pregame, post game or whatever. I mean, you know, after we showered and got cleaned up, when we came out, and tunnel had all kinds of people, you know, I mean, loved ones were there, but then there was there was other people. They followed us all the way to the car. Yeah, you know, some people wanted to get in the car with you were going tonight. We ain't going nowhere.

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Speaker 4: Everybody like that though, everybody what's stepping out first?

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Speaker 1: Like that?

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Speaker 4: Though?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that wasn't even in the tunnel. That's natural outside the building. I was trying to find my way.

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Speaker 3: In fact of fiction, the NBA was a dying, boring spot sport before the ABA merger.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it was dying, but it was boring, uh to some aspect. I watched Old Gingela a lot, you know, and he he was still and what I saw in Alginbela, I was like, oh man, I need to play like that. I mean, I just hoped, and I was probably twelve years old, and I was saying, look at this guy man left right going through the battle, changing hands and grabbing rebounds and taking it down and setting people up and whatever. And he had that little little thing that he did whatever, because I thought it was the nerve whatever. But I said, he faking people. What's going on now? He can't help that. Don't don't. Don't talk about that. Yeah, but uh yeah, so brown Ball League called it the brown Ball League. It was, it was. It was the best in the world reportedly, and uh so I didn't have any any hang ups about talking to the A B A and you know, learning about the A B A because uh it clearly was definitely a more exciting adventure NBA.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Fact to fiction, the ABA was the first integrated workplace in the country percentage wise.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there were there were other places that were integrated, but the ABA was more than fifty percent.

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Speaker 4: Fact to fiction. Red Auerbuck hated the ABA.

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Speaker 2: That's a fact. That's a fact. And you know it was so funny man, when I when I when I first met him, since I went to UMAs and I was right down the road, I was ninety miles down the road. Well, well, I went to college and you know I had two good varsity seasons and a fresh season that was that was pretty good. And all he said to me was, you should have been a Celtic. The whole time he said you could have been a Sealthic. He said, you got a great game or anything, blah blah blah, with nothing complimentary or whatever, just that you should have been a Celtic because because they had regional draft privileges in six Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you had first refusal, almost first take on the ones in your area, college in your area. That's the way it used to be. That was a fact. That's crazy. That was a fact.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, interesting factor. Fiction. Darnelle Hillman taught you how to style your afro.

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Speaker 2: Fact what Tipsy give you? Fact. Donald had the baddest afro ever, even even Hollywood didn't have an afro as good as his. And he could jump and he could fly. Know so, I mean he wasn't my Elginbala yeah or whatever. But we hung out a lot, and you know, we had a lot of meals together and he he actually, you know, took me through the whole thing with the with the cake uh the cake knife, not the cake knife. It was the one thing with proms on it and you slice cake with it. You know what that is what they call it.

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Speaker 5: I don't know the name of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So everybody had the afro picks, but he had the cake thing, cake thing. Man, he could take it out like that.

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Speaker 5: You got.

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Speaker 2: Out of the comb out of that cake thing was a black but not the black comb. No, this was this was silver. I feel like they made the calm afterwards. Probably the cake.

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Speaker 5: The cake dag, we'll find it.

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Speaker 2: No women, the women don't know either, and it's not happen any the cake.

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Speaker 4: Oh that's hard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it was a fact, man, Yeah, fact of fiction.

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Speaker 3: The NBA didn't let players grow afros in the seventies, early early seventies.

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Speaker 2: In the seventies. You know, when I got to the NBA, I had my fro for maybe a season or two, and then I personally start cutting my hair. So now I start wearing suits. I don't. It wasn't it wasn't enforced, you know, there was rew enforcement.

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Speaker 4: Fact to fiction. There was a fight almost every night in the ABA.

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Speaker 2: Well it was either a fight or there was a story about it. But I would have to say violence was there, and you know, the assumption was the same thing was going on in the NBA. Why there was such violence, it was because you know, they let it go, you know, and they weren't stopping play and holding it up and reviewing it and and issuing penalties. And uh, the very players, very few players got fined. Uh the way you get fined in the NBA if you got into a fight. And then there was some guys, man, they were just looking for trouble. I was just looking for trouble, man. These were jobs and somebody saying I'm gonna get there by hook or crook. And really, you think during the season there were fights during the training camps. That's when my first year, uh with the Virginia Squires, I was in a scrimmage and uh, I just come off the summer playing in the rugby league, right, So I was, you know, feeling my oats whatever, talking on a lot of people. And Uh, I couldn't dunk in college, so chains came off. I was dunking in the rugby league. I got to Virginia, we got the training camp. We were in Richmond, I believe, and uh, the first five minutes the trainer he told the coach to take me out the game, and when I got off to the sideline, they said, I'm taking you out because these guys are trying to hurt you. You know. So he was protecting the property and the training camp if he had free agents there. We had some guys came in off the street, you know, we had the guys who were drafted. Willie Soljiern and I were drafted, so we uh so. So they were really trying to protect so they knew what was going on, and that was a real experience. It was like hockey back then.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna keep one girl dude on the teams, just sent him out there and just clean up. Yeah, it just hurt somebody, the enforce her, right, yep. What do you hope that people take away from this new documentary about the ABA.

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Speaker 2: I think I think there should be maybe a benefit. First and foremost in my mind is, you know, the guys who didn't make the cut, so to speak, because they had they had a draft, a dispersement draft of the players who were not on the teams that went in. So four teams went in, three teams didn't. So there's thirty six players who were on rosters and suddenly overnight they're unemployed. Half of those guys got picked up in the dispersal draft and the other health they were left defense for themselves. And there were issues that were not resolved with the agreement in terms of pension and other medical benefits and so on and so for long term and short term. So it was really fair. Plus the ABA franchises had to pay to get in, you know, and it was already a league that was struggling financially because you know, with some of the teams, you know, players were complaining about checks bouncing and so on and so forth. So it wasn't the best deal. But I think it was pressured by the Nets and the Nuggets because they applied for membership into the NBA and they said, screw everybody else, We're gonna We're gonna go in. We gotta we gotta survive. And as it turned out, ownership changed hands with those franchises too. And I think the Nets have kind of been plagued throughout the history of the merger because they haven't had a team. They've had teams go to finals, but not uh not not get the chip. And San Antonio has flourished and I don't think Indiana's want a championship either, but uh or Utah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was blessed to be able to play in the Rutger. You know what I'm saying, your time was the essence was the creation. Look at this picture and tell them.

00:22:06
Speaker 2: What you unbelieve.

00:22:07
Speaker 1: Let's people at the top of the building right there. Take us back to this moment right here with the r What kind of shoes were you playing in?

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Speaker 5: That was definitely converse.

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Speaker 4: That's definitely converse.

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Speaker 2: That's converse, yeah man.

00:22:17
Speaker 4: And that's some good tube.

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Speaker 2: I ain't have no knee braces on.

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Speaker 5: Young days.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that'd be first or second year. And the dies out people made it happen. I mean, look at those people on top of buildings. Crazy and there's a train station in the back. There's trees, people in the trees and were playing on the pavement. So that's raw, you know, up and down on the pavement. If you if you can't go on pavement, don't step out there.

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Speaker 4: And no insoles in the shoes, but that was like three pair of socks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, so they want to ton of outside of yourself. As far as other pros playing there at the time. Were there many pros or were you one of the few?

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Speaker 2: I was. I was the rookie on the block.

00:23:07
Speaker 5: You know, Connie Hawkins was out there, Okay, so there were more pros out there.

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Speaker 2: Let's see the guys from the Knicks and the guys I played on the team that predominantly had guys from the Nets. So I had Billy Paulps and Billy and Alie Taylor and jumping Johnny Green, you know, played during that time. And he was a guy who lived in my town that I lived in Long Island, Roosevelt. So I used to walk past his house because he was playing with the Knicks. So that was that was a big deal. You know, I'm the guy in your neighborhood playing for the playing for the New York Knicks and the so he was he was in the Rutger. Well those guys who aren't playing in the NBA. Yeah, Pa pee Wee Kirkland and Earl Manigold and uh uh. They had who's this guy from from Marquette and they called him the helicopter. You just go up and hover and he stayed there block your shot, Herman, the helicopter knowings, that's what they call the handle and he can't get to wherever you wanted to get.

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Speaker 5: He was short though, right he was.

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Speaker 2: He wasn't he was big. And you know it's funny. We were leaving the hotel, man Muggsy Bogues came around the corner. Hey, Doc, what's up? Damn five six?

00:24:40
Speaker 4: Come on, yeah, five five doing?

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Speaker 2: He was doing, Yeah, he was doing the do Yeah. But so there were a lot of pros, and it was a pro summer league. So you know the guys Walt Frasier and Earl you know, Earl Monroe, they would show up and it was once a week in the summer, and maybe it was ten weeks, ten weeks. So Charlie Scott introduced me to the league because he, you know, came out of college a year before me and his team drafted me. And he was a star of the team. And you know, it was the Charlie Scott Show, and then it was uh, then it was Doc and Charlie and Doc, uh great Scott, Charlie, the Great Scott, Julius, doctor j Irving. You know, so I got I got co billing with Charlie and we were rolling. Man. We had we had a great season. He averaged like thirty three, average twenty eight. And we were all offense. You know. It wasn't nobody playing no defense. It was all off hey. And then uh, April came, we got down to the home stretch and Charlie rolled out. Man, he went and signed with the Phoenix Sunshow. Really, you know, and I was like, oh, is this our works? And then he never came back, never came back. But I still see him today. Man. I was like, Charlie, you baulted on us. You got me all hooked.

00:26:12
Speaker 4: Into you know, money reasons.

00:26:16
Speaker 2: But you know what you know who replaced him?

00:26:18
Speaker 4: George gerbon Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah you can when.

00:26:24
Speaker 2: George gerbin Man, George could scored as much as Chili, but he did it in a different way. Yeah, he did it in a different way. So having those two guys as teammates, well, I was young, I was only twenty one, twenty two.

00:26:37
Speaker 5: I got to know.

00:26:37
Speaker 4: I can see some of that footage you and Ice on the court together on the same thing.

00:26:40
Speaker 5: Yeah, I gotta go watch some of that.

00:26:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, that would be great, Yeah, that would be great.

00:26:45
Speaker 1: Drafted to the ABA by the Virginia Squires. Is it fair to say that Spencer Hay would kind of clear the path for you to come out of college.

00:26:51
Speaker 5: A year early.

00:26:52
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, And the story is told and Spencer's story is told and soul power. But yeah, what he did, I mean, you know, left school after one year and just realized his family situation. He needed to do something about it, you know, I mean his mother was you know, down south picking cotton and with a bad back and all that. So he said, I got to do something. I need to start making money. And you know, history is an amazing story, but he's the one who opened the door. Clearly.

00:27:31
Speaker 1: What did that first ABA check mean to you? At the time you're making about one hundred and twenty five thousand a year, What did that first check mean? And what was your first all right?

00:27:41
Speaker 2: Actually I was very disappointed. I was very disappointed because my contract said four years, five hundred thousand dollars half million dollars one twenty five a year, payable over seven years. So now we got the seven year thing in there, so we got so we got so that that makes it seventy one. So now seventy thousand a year, and we had an advance of ten thousand, so I had some money in my pocket I signed. So when I got that first check, the ten thousand was taken back. So my check was about ten thousand dollars, you know, And I mean it was more than one than I had. But it was kind of like a wake up call, Okay, this is this is big business.

00:28:39
Speaker 5: And they chopped.

00:28:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, they chopped. They chopped that up. Man, they chopped that up. So I was looking at I, you know, ordered the car and was doing some things and trying to upgrade the family stuff. And I got this check. Man, I was like looking at it, like this check nowhere there seventy one. Uh. And I don't even think it was ten, man, it was probably like eight.

00:29:03
Speaker 5: What was what was the first car you got? What was the Cadillac?

00:29:06
Speaker 1: I had a car in college, Okay, so yeah, and il before and I was even thought of.

00:29:12
Speaker 2: So I had uncle. That uncle was my father's brother and uh, and he gave me like a sixty two Chevy. And I got out of high school sixty eight, so six years old, and he had put the car together.

00:29:29
Speaker 4: You was cleaned around that time. You was rocking good run the.

00:29:32
Speaker 2: Time he put the car together. Only problem with this car was when I made right turns, the home would blow so people people was waving at me all the time. I was waving back. I ride around Embers, Massachusetts, waving at everybody every time I made her turn. So we used to laugh about it. And uh, when I when I find he signed, I had, you know, kind of falling in love with a little sports car. I'm going to get a little sports car. But I took three of my friends, so we ended up with a Mark three. There ain't no way near a little sports car, oh man, I said, I ain't never taking friends and go buy a car and talk because you know they were sitting in the back. Man, it's kind of tight back here. We need more room all this. And I'm still friends with those guys right now. But I don't take it when I go to buying, I ain't do it. I can't do it.

00:30:33
Speaker 4: I ain't do it.

00:30:34
Speaker 1: You once said your best three years as a pro was seventy four, seventy five, seventy six, all in the NBA with the New York Nets.

00:30:41
Speaker 5: What was it about that time and where do you feel your game was at that time?

00:30:45
Speaker 2: You know, I always kind of looked like looked at this thing like I was in lou Al Cinder's shadow, you know, because we both came out of New York. He came out a couple of years ahead of me, and he was, you know, from the city and I was from the suburbs and whatever, but just in comparisons. So I always, you know, looked at his accomplishments in college and you know, being the best player in the game, high school, college, whatever. So that that was the bar. That's where the bar was. You know, everybody else was maybe reachable, but he was not reachable, and not in the exact terms. So there was a lot of gratification. You know, when we swept the Lakers in eighty three, it was like man relief. You know, I ain't in that shadow no more, thanks to Moses and others. So seventy four or five and six, and I was co MVP one year with George McInnis and the other two years. I was MVP in seventy four seventy six and had to give him his his props. And there was a reason why too talk about that a little later, maybe, I think with Kevin Lockery and you know, even though all of my coaches were former players, you know, he was a guard and guards are supposed to be coaches on the floor or whatever. So he was true to form in that regard where when he came off the floor, he was already to coach. He didn't need, he didn't need this break in period. And in all fairness to Billy Cunningham, he needed a break in period, and he had Chuck Daly right there, so he had a good break in period. But it took three or four years and then he got it. And when he got it, he owned it. But Lockery owned it right from day one. And you know when I got traded to the nets, every was in position for you know, me to go from good to great. And the greatness came from uh the coach basically saying, look after first quarters, well maybe at halftime, he come over. He says, we got this game plan and we've gone through this multiple times and it ain't working. So you need to do some stuff out there. You need to do some stuff out there to make us look like we know what we're doing. And why did he say that? So we had we had isolation plays, we played up tempo, and on the defensive end, you know there was there was just free them where I knew if even if I made a mistake, I wouldn't gonna get yanked out of the game. And you know when you when you have that, and you guys have had that at one place or another or another or whatever, it's just like ski's the limits. Anything. Anything could happen, you know, you and Iceman always talks about. Man, we came to town. We were putting on a show and it was it was like that putting putting on a show and you know, not being micro managed and and not worried about anything because you know, mistakes happen. The game is all about making mistakes, and who makes the less mistakes sometimes is the one that prevails or whatever. But you're going to make mistakes. And if you don't try stuff, trying to play the perfect game, uh, you know that's not gonna work. So so I think those those three years, the first year, uh, our chemistry, we just came together and you know, we we won that. We won that championship against Utah. We played well against every team in the league. Second year we played played well. I think we had best record, we at home court advantage, and but there was a fatigue factor because we had played through the finals. The previous year, and at the end of the season, you know, we're still grinding it out and whatever, and you know, playing everybody's for the starting lineers, playing long minutes and what have you. In that first round, man Saint Louis took us out. We had beaten the mic eleven times this season and we were gassed. We were gassed, and Lockery said, okay, next last month of the season, you could leave town. You could just stay home. Whatever. I'm not playing in the fourth quarter. See whatever you're gonna do, you better doing three quarters. So I was trying to do it in three quarters. And I had like a twenty nine point scoring averaging with twenty eight seven twenty six. But that wasn't the deal. The deal was getting the rest before the seasons, before the playoffs started. And then that last year, you know, Denver was a better team, but you know we we were a better playoff team, and we were and we were ready and we had rested players, particularly me, And I remember that like it was yesterday because I wasn't happy about not playing the fourth quarter. Yep, yep. You had the stat but you had to throw the stats away. You know, it's not about the stats. Now and he was right. It was right.

00:37:00
Speaker 1: Helped two questions before we go on, what was the chemistry like when George Gervin came, was there?

00:37:06
Speaker 4: Who who was?

00:37:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's funny.

00:37:10
Speaker 4: Y'a'm ready because y'all the too coolest cat you come across.

00:37:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, when George came, I went to UH I went down to the arena because they I knew they were bringing them in. And all I knew was he was a bad man. He was from Detroit and went to Eastern Michigan and he got a little trouble, he got booted from the team, so on and so forth or whatever. So I didn't know whether it was badass guy, good guy whatever, you know. And he came in and he was like, you know, six seven one sixty something whatever. I was like, look at this dude, man. And then he started shooting because they had him shooting around the perimeter the three point line, shooting for his contract.

00:37:58
Speaker 5: Really he was.

00:37:59
Speaker 2: He was flip it up there so easy. I was like, damn, it's bad bad right here right. And his boy was with him, who was always with him, this guy. So so he gets signed on the team and they want to I'll be Yankee wanted to bring him off the bench. So he bought him off the bench and George, you know, I was scoring like thirty. George was going like fifteen. But it was easy fifteen because he's just coming off the bench and he was content with that. He was just happy to be employed and be a squire. So as a way of bonding, I like to because this happened to me. Ray Scott did it with me. Where after practice he said, you stay and do some extra work with me. So Ray Scott did that with me. So I said, I used to do that with George. Everybody. We'd be in there playing one on one and uh, you know, we we developed a bond, you know during that time.

00:39:08
Speaker 5: And what were those games like that? One?

00:39:14
Speaker 2: So I think one on one physically, uh, you know, he could outshoot me. There's a new question because my game wasn't just shooting, you know, taking it to the rack by by by a gay get way off you you know, shoot it. I think I probably won most of the games, I would have to say in equivocally because I was a little more experienced and I could be more physical than him. But I can see how good he was. I can see how good he was, and and you know, and I honored that because we only played together half a season. I don't even think it was a half season, because he came in the midpoint and then he played the rest of that season, and then the next year I was gone. It was his team. It was his team, and he was his team till he got traded to San Antonio. But the experience that we had together, we've we've held on to that all these years, you know, even with the Big Three stuff. We were down there now and you know, we got stories to tell. Anybody asked, we got some stuff to tell them from our Virginia Squire's days.

00:40:27
Speaker 1: How did you as an individual look at the NBA as you're thriving in the ABA? What was kind of like what did you guy, what was the perception of them or what was the their perception of the ABA?

00:40:37
Speaker 2: I thought the NBA and planning in the NBA was in eventuality. Uh, you know, it was going to happen, and we weren't dying to get over there, but the reports were. And we had friends, you know, like my my my agent was a guy named Erwin Wiener, so, uh, you know, Wiener and Fraser Sports Enterprises. So Clyde was part owner, part owner of the business. So my NBA connection was basically through Clyde Fraser. And you know, Clyde used to take me shopping, you know, want me to get into stuff that he was wearing.

00:41:23
Speaker 4: I'm glad you didn't.

00:41:24
Speaker 2: I was like Clyde. I was like, Clyde, I'm not gonna wear that. Clyde would come you know, he had furs, Kyle, whatever he held, he would find this stuff. And uh so we used to laugh about it because you know, he's from Atlanta, but you know New York. He driving the rolls and Clyde was Clyde. There was only one Clyde, one Clyde Fraser. So so so that was an experience and that was how close I got to the NBA through him and through experiences with him, and I knew that there would eventually that there would be one league. Now actually the agent who set up the meeting for me to go and explore the opportunity, business opportunity while I was a junior and I finished my junior year, I made like third team All Americans during that time. And we had a meeting in Philadelphia and it was supposed to be exploratory. So I called my high school coach, so he came from Long Island. And who else was there? Two guys from the Squires, Johnny Kerr, Johnny Red Kerr and alb Yankee who was the coach. So we had a hotel. It was in a motel, and we spent a whole afternoon in there talking about the a's and b's of what's going on. And my takeaway was that the leagues were gonna merge within two years. They said two years from that point. So this is nineteen seventy one, so they said by nineteen seventy three it was gonna be a merging the two leagues. And the guy, the agent who was in there, he was he was continuously insistent on that, and Wilt and Russell had just had that contract situation where you know, Wilt had signed for one hundred thousand a year and Russell said, I want one hundred and one dollar because I'm the MVP, because he was the MVP of league. So you know, this was all this was already in the universe and newspapers or whatever, and then these guys start coming in and talking about one twenty five. I was like, and they said, I said, what's that gonna look like in two years? And they said, oh, it's gonna be about thirty you know, maybe thirty maybe maybe less. Twelve thousand dollars signing bonus and twenty thousand compensation. So I called my mom and I said, I'm in a situation. Said, I'm not at school right now. I'm in Philly and this pro basketball team wants me to sign with them. Who are they? The Virginia Squires. Who are they? I said, I don't know, but I think they got money. So so my mom, my father, my stepfather worked for the sanitation apartment, and my mom had a hasslon and they were bringing in about fifteen thousand, the two of them, and they were working hard. They were working hard, and I told them the numbers. She was saying, well, you went to college to graduate, so if you do anything, you just promised me you go graduate. That was the green light because I said I could work under graduation. I could be a part time student, and now became a full time athlete. So the next day we signed, We signed, and all that other stuff began to happen. We made it.

00:45:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, after the mergery land in Philly with the seventy six. This is a crazy story. They said the Knicks could have had you, but they decided to take three million dollars in cashes.

00:45:19
Speaker 5: That's true.

00:45:19
Speaker 2: They took the money from the Nets because the Nets were invading on their territory. After the merger had happened, Nets were in their territory, so the NBA created a territorial invasion clause or whatever, and you know, Nets had to pay them. So the Nets had to get something for me. So they got six million dollars from the sixers and then my contract was six million dollars.

00:45:54
Speaker 4: So no, so no Knicks. Would you like to be there? Would you love to be there?

00:45:58
Speaker 3: Oh?

00:45:58
Speaker 2: The Knicks would have been great. I mean, uh, I can stay in the same house over in Nassau County and Upper Brookville and you know, started my family. So yeah, that would have been ideal. Uh would have been a whole different story, I think family. Yeah, the Knicks would have been a different story. Milwaukee would have been a different story. Playing with Kareem. Yeah, with Kareem, Yeah, he came. Uh, he joined him for one year and they won the championship, and then the Hawks would have been different because I signed a contract with the Hawks.

00:46:39
Speaker 3: So.

00:46:41
Speaker 2: I never signed with the Knicks or the Milwaukee Bucks. But I did sign with the Hawks, I signed with the Squires, signed with the Nets, and that side with the Sixes, So I had four different contracts during my career.

00:46:52
Speaker 3: I was blessed to be able to learn a lot from him, and coming up in Houston, he used to always come even when he wasn't playing his way out the NBA, he was coming by and playing pick up with his mostam alone. Oh yeah, I was grace to know him. You tell me some stories about him, which I our relationship was like, yeah, somebody.

00:47:11
Speaker 2: We had a great relationship. It's so funny because when he got introduced to pro basketball, I was on the Nets and when the first time he came into New York and they asked me to introduce him, you know. So you know, I just stood up, got the microphone and just start talking. And I think I said something to the fact of, you know, all right, you know now that you had pro basketball, you know you've been you've been swimming in the water with these little fish dominating them. Now the fish are bigger, you know, are you ready to jump into the pond, something corny like that or whatever, and you know how moves were already. Man, I'm ready, just give me the ball. In that day, I think he had twenty something rebounds. You know, we played them and he was with Utah nineteen years old, and I didn't know that down the road we would be teammates. But when we got the opportunity to get him in Philadelphia, as you know, our record was going to the finals three times in six years and coming away empty handed. And went to the finals with Daryl Dawkins, Calwell, Jones, Harvey Ketchings, and our thing always seemed to be getting out rebounded, and just our inside interior defense wasn't that great, even though Carwell and Harvey were pretty good defensive players. So when we got the opportunity to get Moses because he was disgruntled, it just changed everything. And I think from day one, and Verice Cheeks says it best. He said, from day one in practice, he said, I knew we were gonna win the championship just the first practice because this man, when he showed up for practice, he was already sweating, you know, because some guys take a long time to get warmed up. And all that kind of stuff. Moses was drenched. I didn't want to get near him, and we used to laugh about that. Yeah, he came and he established himself and the city fell in love with him because of his work ethic that you know, not his talent, And the talent was like hidden behind his work ethic, because he can get on that baseline. He could hit the jump shot, he made his free throws, you know, close to free throw shooter, and and you know he hit you on the fly outlet passes and go along or whatever. So he did, he did all in everything, and he was he was all and everything to us because we had all the pieces. He had all the pieces, you know, me and Bobby Jones playing forwards. We had Mark Irony and then Cheeks and Tony's you know, yeah cheeks and Tony Man cheeks. Uh, why are you looking at him like that's your guy too?

00:50:25
Speaker 1: No, all, I liked him as a player. I didn't like him as a coach. Charles Markley once said that Moses Malone kind of helped save him. I said he was fatten out of shape, and Charles took that the heart. What do you remember about the young Charles?

00:50:39
Speaker 2: I kept seeing his upside and uh, he was he was hard headed. He had something to say about everything. And if he didn't play is as good as he can and as well as he was capable of playing or whatever. Then some of the things he did wouldn't be tolerant rated, but they were tolerated because you know, he was exceptional man. He can you know, he could rebound. It take a coast to coast make plays and for his height, the rebound, the way that he did, you know, it was incredible, it was incredible. It was It was kind of disruptive because we had won the championship before the year before he got there, and then the year that he got there, we had to make room for him. And he almost killed Marker Ivroni because Ivarni was playing, you know before, and child was like, that's my spot right there. This is going back to violence in the game because the next man up be a you man. He he get irony at his back. He backed them all the way out to the top of the key. And then uh, and with Moses, you know, Moses stayed on him. Moses used to ride him because Mos always in shape. And you know, funny, you wouldn't see Moses training. I don't know where he trained at. He was always I never seen him no weights, I never seen him running and you know, but he was definitely training.

00:52:20
Speaker 5: He was always something in shape.

00:52:22
Speaker 2: And you, like you said, you don't when him come in. You never seen him.

00:52:25
Speaker 4: He was in his late forties, early fifties.

00:52:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, still playing up, running up and down the court, you know, working Tim Duncan, I work, even David Robbinson. He was working a lot of those guys out. He worked came out and Kevin Cato. Yeah, he was still playing with us around the time I was a teenager. He was still getting up and down the court. But the biggest thing that, like you said, we was getting from him was he was teaching while he was playing. He was teaching all of us, you know, how to and how to be professional too. Yeah, yeah, I missed Moses.

00:52:52
Speaker 2: Yeah you know what his line was, he said, what you're going to do with uh? This is Doctor Jay's team. He said, well, maybe it's doc show, but maybe it to be a better show with me. He used to talk. He always come up with these Yeah.

00:53:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know we're a little short on time, but I definitely want to get through this little part right here, Larry Bird. Yeah, ultimately, you guys pushed each other to the max. You guys have the infamous fight in Philly. You guys are throwing them, You're choking them, He's swinging. What was what was it like competing against him?

00:53:28
Speaker 2: Well, the competition against Larry, I mean started with Havlichick Cowen's Jojo White, and the probably with Will and Bill Russell, Philly versus Boston. The history in Boston Philly, the rivalry, I mean, I was I didn't you know, I went to school in Massachusetts, so I didn't hate the Boston tell when I was in Massachusetts. But once I went to Philadelphia via Virginia, New York York and then in Philadelphia, then it's like, Okay, we can't like these guys. And Quinn Buckner was on their team, and Quinn and I were cool. We were boys and whatever. So that started and way before Berg got there, way before Berg got there. I mean, it was with haveing chicken and teams they had. We didn't like them. The year they won the championship, we knocked them out in the first round, and and there was just a rivalry. Man, there was a love hate rivalry with with with Boston and Philadelphia. So I think because the cities were competitive in all sports across the board, we had to just join the club. We had just join the club, and they felt the same way about us, right, And the irony of that is, you know, Larry and I did stuff together.

00:54:54
Speaker 5: Yeah. Right, We're looking at a video game cover right here? Was this before or after the fight?

00:54:57
Speaker 2: This was?

00:54:58
Speaker 5: That was before it was kind of ripped up too.

00:55:01
Speaker 2: That was before man, that was that was the video still out there in the universe somewhere.

00:55:08
Speaker 5: Licensing deal with was it?

00:55:10
Speaker 2: Yeah?

00:55:11
Speaker 4: Did you get stocked.

00:55:13
Speaker 2: Sports? Did you get some spots? Got fifteen thousand shares?

00:55:17
Speaker 4: Oh?

00:55:17
Speaker 5: Nice?

00:55:18
Speaker 2: Yeah?

00:55:20
Speaker 5: Sports?

00:55:21
Speaker 2: And uh, we did converse together, and me and him and Magic, three of us were first three converse guys. Well I was there first and then UH signed them. So it was a rivalry.

00:55:33
Speaker 3: Uh.

00:55:34
Speaker 2: You know the fight incident. You know, I generally don't have too much to say about it because you don't want to dignify.

00:55:42
Speaker 5: You know, a bad event and competitiveness.

00:55:44
Speaker 2: That happened, and yeah, that happened in the blink of an eye, and then it got carried all over the universe because people coming up to me, can you sign this picture? And I'm looking at a picture.

00:55:56
Speaker 7: Hold his neck? He hold my neck. If I had to fight side of this ship was Larry Bird? Yeah, Lar Bird.

00:56:07
Speaker 1: The next two guys, Magic Johnson spoke on how you were a huge mentor in him picking him up from the airport, and a few years later you're battling against them in the finals. And then also not a few years a few months months later, talk about what what did you see in a young rookie year? What did you see in a young Magic the total package?

00:56:28
Speaker 2: If you could say that, I be I didn't know in college he was as good as he was and uh uh you know, they had won the whole thing. Uh so he got a lot of publicity and uh ironically there were a couple other tall guards in the league, but none who could do the things that he did. And and you know, he just he carved his own way. And I think, uh, the first coach he had, they fired him, didn't they. Yeah, Yeah, so here we go, you know, with the coaching situation playing the role that it did, because you know, my first two coaches, I'll be Yankee and then Kevin Lucker made all the difference in the world in terms of change coming off and you know, getting out and being able to be free running isolations for you and stuff like that. So so there was a there was a shift with first coach being fired, next coach, and he's a he's a coach on the floor anyway or whatever. So sometimes its just somebody being a good listener makes makes a difference. And then when you got Kareem back there or right, I just I just say, man, this this is kind of ideal because I think Kareem is responsible for putting eight or ten players in the Hall of Fame, you know, and Magic can take some of that credit. But you know that that combination was tough it' stuff. We chased them. We chased them three times and took a while to catch him.

00:58:08
Speaker 1: Got them on, We got them, got him once. Yeah, a nice one too. Mjson record saying you're his idol. Some say he obviously admired your game, but also off the court, the business blueprint, because you were a first to do a lot of the branding partnerships of EA Converse the business side of basketball as well. Did you kind of see that from Afar?

00:58:27
Speaker 2: Absolutely? You know, I think it's a necessity because the sports temporary. You can only play so long. And I wish I knew then what I know now, right, you know, I might have played a short period of time. You have to build more in the business sector, just in terms of preparation for life or generational lea, setting things up for family and kids, grandkids, great grandkids or what have you. Yeah, I look at that, and you know, all you do is never enough, because the universe is so big and there's so many opportunities out there, and you know, it's it's like rolling the dice sometime. I mean, we had some winners and we had some losers, and you know, we tend to talk about the winners and rebel and the joy of the winning. But just like in sports man, those those defeats, they hurt and they took their toe, you know, so everybody has them.

00:59:29
Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:59:30
Speaker 1: This segment is presented by stock x, a trusted source for the most coveted drops. In nineteen seventy six, you signed a deal with Converse, the first professional basketball player to officially endorse a signature sneaker.

00:59:41
Speaker 5: How did that deal come about?

00:59:43
Speaker 2: I was playing in the Ruggle League. A guy who worked for the newspaper in Harlem. I forgot what the name of the newspaper was, but it's probably still there. He approached me and said, I want to introduce you to, you know, some people from Converse, and I was I was wearing a shoe called Chimme Old C H E M O L D. And that was a company open Queens and I was wearing their shoes.

01:00:13
Speaker 5: That sounds like they hurt your feet? Did they were?

01:00:16
Speaker 2: They were? They were okay, because you know when you when you in that era, you just played period, just played. Man. It wasn't about wasn't about complaining, wasn't about it wasn't about complaining.

01:00:29
Speaker 5: Don't go that far you might not be here.

01:00:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that first year came about through just being approached and playing in the rout League, being sent out there, and I don't even remember the economics associated with it, but it was, you know, it was very special and and I think it came about, I'm going to reconden saying this because of doing p s as you know, I mean, I did I did PSAs, you know, Mother's March against Cancer and Salvation Army and I did PSAs for those entities, and I thought wall street or businesses saw that and said he'd be a good pitch math for us, right, you know, so that was the path way to that. And I've advised many young people, man, do the free stuff, you know, the paget page stuff will come back around.

01:01:31
Speaker 1: Will come around. Yeah, yeah, real quick. The dunk contests, uh you know, the free throw line, the hair. I mean, you inspired so many and today the dunk contest always doesn't live up to what it used to. But what was it about that first dunk contest you got into and and how the aura of that still lives today.

01:01:50
Speaker 2: I think it's amazing that it does live the way that it does today. And uh, I was sneaking recently because uh, you know, Larry King and was in the Marvin Barnes and artist Gilmore, David Thompson and uh George Gervin and myself. So that crew right there. This is the term, yeah you got any hitters. And the other already is that this dunk contest filled in the halftime of the game. So so the economics because it was the Denver Nuggets plays the rest of the A B A kind of like some of the stuff they do now. So we had the A BA All Stars, and then we had the Denver Nuggets because they were first place, they had the best recond league and it was their home court, right, so I think they wanted to put a rock band or something in there at halftime.

01:02:50
Speaker 5: And the deal kept falling through, so they said, I know we do.

01:02:54
Speaker 2: We have a slam dunk contest.

01:02:56
Speaker 5: That's how it came about.

01:02:58
Speaker 2: This is the actual, the actual, the real deal. And they let it and we signed up for it to do it, I mean almost on the spot, right and and suddenly, uh, we're we're in the middle of it, and the crowd is loving it. Oh man, I love this whatever. I'm damn David Thompson, you know, you got some hops. He's gonna do some stuff here and uh and they didn't have any uh substitute dunks if you miss so, like what happened to me and Larry Nance when we win the finals in the first NBA uh slam dunk contest. I missed one. That was it that open the door for Larry you know, because he was doing the same dunk all over and over and over that when they looked like whatever the human helicopter. Yeah, So David missed one and that was like the break I went last dunked it from the foul line, one of the first slam dunk contests. So down, and then you know, I do think about historically the way they look at it now and they look at me, could have been David right there and what he missed?

01:04:15
Speaker 1: Quick hitters. First thing to kind of mind. Let us know one album you can listen to with no skips that man.

01:04:21
Speaker 2: Marvin Gay, come on, come on, going on? What's going on?

01:04:25
Speaker 4: Five dinner? Guess dead or alive?

01:04:27
Speaker 5: You plus five plus five?

01:04:29
Speaker 2: Then I guess all right, Let's take Martin Luther King Jr. Put him in there, Jesus Christ, and do I like, put Michael Jordan in there and talk to him at would? Yeah? I want to. I want to be on his mind.

01:04:54
Speaker 5: And that's three.

01:04:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's three. Bill Russell, nice, yeah, nice legend. Be good to do that again. I know I had a lot of dinners with him. Man, he showed me so much. They showed me so much.

01:05:12
Speaker 5: Who's saving that last seat for rushing me? Oh? Your team, your team said you gotta get on the road.

01:05:17
Speaker 2: So we don't want to make nobody mad. We can.

01:05:23
Speaker 5: We can still have another thirty week. You skipped the whole page and stuff.

01:05:26
Speaker 2: We want to ask save that seat.

01:05:28
Speaker 5: Okay, I like that.

01:05:29
Speaker 1: Well, Doc, thank you for your time. We appreciate you. You know what you meant to the sport on and off the court. You know still stands tall today. And and thank you for finding some time to come through and hang out with us for a little bit.

01:05:40
Speaker 2: Man.

01:05:40
Speaker 3: And let me say, the last seven years been on for me, you know, to be able to work with you every year, build a relationship, feel like a little brother to you now. So I'm just honest to have a relationship I have and I appreciate you coming all right, little brother, sir.

01:05:53
Speaker 1: And he's got his big seventy sixth birthday this year, right, Yes, six birthday, Man's special man, so happy early birth.

01:06:01
Speaker 2: Have summoned me.

01:06:02
Speaker 5: There you go next week, summon.

01:06:04
Speaker 1: Me congratulations man, and I'll be out at your golf tournament later in the summer.

01:06:08
Speaker 5: You good to see you, Jay, you m hm.

01:06:20
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, hm mm hmmm.