Bonus: Huma Abedin finally gets to tell her own story

00:00:00
Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and this is a bonus episode of Next Question. You're Lucky Ducks. Whoma Abodeen, who I've known for many years. And Whoma has her own book coming out next week, so a little shameless plug for that. Whoma Aberdeen came to the New York stop of my recent book tour. Now. The book she's written is called Both and A Life in Many Worlds. Now that I've finished talking about my memoir, I was really looking forward to talking to Huma about hers and I was very happy she was happy to jump on a zoom with me. Oh my god, I'm so thrilled. I'm so excited. We have a lot to talk about now. If you're not familiar with Whoma, that was her intention. For two decades, she's been mostly in the background as the long time trusted aid of Hillary Clinton. She became a more public figure as the wife now ex wife of Congressman Anthony Weener. We'll get into that whole scandal in a moment, because finally Huma is stepping out of the shadows and she's telling her own story, which she says has been cathartic. So much of um the process of writing the book really for me did turn out to be therapy. I didn't expect it to be. I wasn't sure I should tell my story. I liked being the invisible person behind you know, Hillary first and then Anthony, and really my parents because I think, like you, I had. I was very close to my parents, particularly had a very close relationship with my father, and I liked I liked my privacy. Um, I liked that space. But I think their reason. You know, for many months this book was actually called and my editor hates the title, and everyone I've mentioned to hates this title. It was called Bracing. For a long time the book was called Bracing. And the reason it was called bracing is il is though two things. One I was physically bracing behind people, behind Hillary, behind Anthony, but also so much of my life was bracing for the next call, the next breaking news story, the next accusations, the next crisis, the next time you have to be dragged into the FBI. And so my constant state of being was an anxiety and anxious state. And I think, by putting my full truth, um, it was a catharsis that. Um? You know? When I started writing the book, my researcher said, the two most common articles about there in the world about you Huma is number one what is wrong with her? And number two what is she thinking? And so I chose to put exactly what I was thinking, um into this book. And I feel a great and the response has been so Really, I have no better word than humbling. Just hearing from women and young people. UM. And I'm not just saying as Katie because I'm talking to you, but seeing this and I worked for an icon uh in you know, in my opinion as someone I really admire and respect professionally and personally. But to read your story and what you went through, the trail blazer that you have been, I have to say when I read your story and if I read it and then by the way I listened to it, I did both. Is you see the struggles that people have gone through and what they've achieved, you know, for women like me and I. So I'm in such a sort of positive place. I'm sure I'll be terrified next week. So it's I think we can be both and but I'm in I'm in a pretty happy place right now. Did you feel part of this book was reclaiming your narrative because I think, especially for someone like you and to an extent, someone like me, despite the fact that you were much more of a private person and I was, by virtue of my job of a much more public person. Did you feel like you were having to reclaim your story, a story that you felt so many other people had written or speculated about, or ascribe certain character traits or emotions to your experience. Was that part of the motivation, like, actually, this is what it was like, and this is what I was feeling, and um wait, what was the first question? They said? Was the question other than what are you thinking? And and by the way, this is what is wrong with me? Put that in the book. He was claiming my history. You know, my father always told me, your eyes are in the front of your head for a reason. It is to look forward. So even though my parents always wanted us to learn about history, the purpose of that was not to live in the past. It was to understand how to make decisions in the future, how to inform decisions that we were going to make. And I believe my father always thought I was going to be an author when I write a story in the book. When I was ten, he gave me Silas Marner. He often brought me books from his travels and I didn't understand the material, but I I looked at the introduction and I went to my father and said, why did this woman, Marianne Evans have to use a fake a man's name, George Elliott to publish her book? And my father said, well, in the Victorian era, women weren't taken seriously as writers, so she had to use a man's name. But don't worry. When you grow up and you write your book, you will use your own name and everyone will take it seriously. So to me, to some degree, this book is a love letter to my father. Um, it's all the things that I could have one more conversation. I was seventeen when I lost him to say, this is what I did, and I hope you're proud of me, but it is to stay claim on my my own story and my history. I did think other people were writing my story for the law twenty years and I wanted to take that back. And I haven't shared this very much, but maybe because I'm having this conversation with you. One of the main reasons I decided to write the book was, you know, the idea of the book was actually my friend was Anna win towards idea. Right after the election. She takes me to dinner says you should write your book. And I thought, no way. I don't want to do what I want to disappear, I felt. So I was so traumatized, so devastated. I said, absolutely not. And uh and and then I go tell Hillary. Anna thinks I should write my book, and Hillary says, a great idea. Oh my god, you've a great story. I said no. I went to lunch with a man seven months later who was giving me professional advice about what I should do when I grow up, and I said to him, several people have suggested I write my book. And he looked at me with a straight face and said, why would you do that? And I said, well, it's it's a good story. I've you know, walked alongside history. He says, you know, I don't think anyone wants to hear any more about all that scandal. And there's no way you're going to satisfactorily answer all these questions about Hillary and Anthony. I don't know why you do it. I walked out of that lunch and I was writing the book and it was the moment that somebody suggested the story wasn't worthy, that I wasn't worthy that made me basically start putting it all down, or that they had bought into whatever narrative was out there as factual and they were tired of hearing about a story that they didn't really understand, appreciate or no fully exactly right. Yeah, wow, I hadn't thought about it like that, but that's exactly right. Yes, Yes, let's talk about your your parents, because as as you said, you lost your dad when you were just seventeen years old. But both of your parents were academics. They sound as if they were extraordinary people. And you've had such an interesting background. Um, you know, traveled all over the world. You all lived all over the world. Can you just give us the cliff notes huma for people who haven't read the book yet about your background, And then I want to ask you about some of the lessons you felt both your parents taught you. So I am the product of two immigrant parents and Indian father a Pakistani mother. They left their homes, their families, their countries back in the sixties. They were full right scholars for them. Education really in itself was a religion, and they came to this country. They met at the University of Pennsylvania, fell in love, got married. They were supposed to go back home to marry people they were promised too, but neither of them did got married. And for people who understand the history, India had just gone through this very bloody, brutal partition and two people from those countries could not go back and live in peace, and so they sought asylum in this country. They got it. Moved to Michigan because the deal my parents had is they would move wherever. They both got jobs at universities and um I was born in Kalamazoo, Michigan. But when I was too my father was diagnosed with renal failure and he was told he had five to ten years to get his affairs in order. And it was one of the first lines I wrote in my book Katie. My father was told he was dying, and so he went out and he lived and we two months later we moved to Saudi Arabia and I spent it was meant to be a one year sabbatical. It was forty two years ago. I spent my entire childhood. As you said, my parents loved exploring different cultures, countries, languages, places, and so every summer we had the privilege to travel all over the place and gave me I felt a real understanding and appreciation and more than that, a comfort. So even though when we were raised as Americans, it was so core to our identity, this notion of experiencing other places and spaces. So when I walked into the White House at one years old, not not you know, having anyone really like me surround me, I did. I think my different perspective was actually huge advantage having set that whom did you ever feel other rise did you ever feel uncomfortable? Are different because your Muslim? And you know, there weren't a ton of Muslim men or women operating in the spheres you were working in. I share the story in the book that I, you know, one summer my father was having his kidney transplant, how we did go to school in America for a brief period, and that I did, for a tiny bit of time experience a little bit of what it is like to feel like another. But I think because of the way we had been raised, my father, you know, always said people are like plants, and a plant is only as good as its roots. And if you maintain the roots, the soil, winter storm, the plant is gonna be okay. So I think that gave me a sense of confidence in who I was and my values and my belief system. You know, both my parents did this, so I didn't and and I and I was the child of somebody who spent his entire life exploring the other, my father. It's why later in life, when my parents were attacked for me extremists, it was so shocking because their whole approach the world was I want to understand. I want to go and have conversations with people who don't agree with me and try to understand their perspective. So no, when I walked into the White House, I proudly shared my faith traditions, my cultural traditions, and I felt as though, at least in the Clinton administration, it was seen as an asset. It was Let's send her to Jordan's for King Hussain's funeral, Let's have her go to Morocco, Let's have her go to Tunisia. And I share the stories about going to the Macedonian refugee camp and talking to the East coast of our Muslim women it was I felt very embraced and very protected in that community. Having said that, you do write about Michelle Bachman. And it's interesting because I so remember Huma. During the two thousand six sixteen campaign, a friend of mine sent me a video about you and about your family and about the Muslim brotherhood that you described in the book. And I said to my friend, this is ki less, this is made up propaganda. You shouldn't believe it and you should not share it. And I was so incensed by it because I always was very upset about the Islamophobia that penetrated the culture, particularly after A nine eleven and then when I read about Michelle Bachman and the other members of Congress who were attacking you based on that video, Um, it was just infuriating. But it's also you talk about how how impotent you felt during that period, because it's almost as if me thinks she doth protest too much. It's it's a damned if you don't do, damned if you don't situation. And that must have been maddening for you. Yeah, I it was one of the people when people ask me what the worst experience was in my adult life, it was that moment because one of the reasons I did choose to write the book is to explain what it is to be an American Muslim. I think the average American does not know. And since the book has been out, the number of conversations I've had with people and they'll say, oh, I don't I didn't know you believed in Jesus. I didn't know that you believe in Moses. And it's all you know the same. And so that was it was actually a motivation for writing the book and sharing about a faith that I'm very proud of and is a whole way of life as I described. And the reason, you know, the Bachman incident and and you know the other members of commerce who signed on to that letter, and it wasn't even just me who was attacked. There were other very high ranking, well respected Muslims in government, um who were attacked. Is that we come from a part of the world where your reputation is everything. I mean, it's sort of one bad accusation, one kind of black cloud over your your head is a very you know, serious, a very serious thing. And it was so specially because they were impugning your parents. I I, as I write in the book, it I at that point it was used to this kind of you know, sort of underhanded politics. But it was my parents, it was my family, and we all felt impotent. And you you nailed it when you said she doth protest too much. It was don't say anything, because you're going to elevate it. I grew up in the Clinton world of politics back in the nineties was all about the you know, twenty four hour cable news and the proactive message of the day is what you drove. So if it was healthcare, that's all you talked about every day, and you didn't acknowledge the nonsense, Katie, I mean, you remember these days. It was now in twelve we were living in the news cycle with social media and not responding basically acknowledged that was true. And it was when we went to Egypt. And I share this story in the book I traveled with Hillary when she was Secretary of State to Egypt. We're sitting at a table and this Egyptian man looks at Hillary and says, I don't know that we trust your government because of this woman who was whispering these unpatriotic things in your ear and Hillary and typical Hillary fashion says, Oh, you mean, who am not? She's right over here. You should talk to her and clear it up. And I did have a conversation with this man, but it really showed, you know, I I wrote this in the book. I felt as though that was an appetizer for what was to come in I mean, my community. I was just you know, when Obama went to the you know, at the White House defended me and John McCain went to the floor of the Senate. It was amazing and humbling, but it was more than just about me. It was about standing up for the principles and values upon which this country was built. I was really moved by what Senator McCain said about you and how he defended you on the floor of the Senate. Let's listen. Over the past decade, I've had the pleasure of knowing her during her long and dedicated service to Hillary Rodham Clinton, both in the United States Senate and now in the Department of State. I know Homa to be an intelligent, upstanding, hard working, and loyal servant of our country in our government who was devoted countless days of her life to advancing the ideals of the nation. She loves and looking after its most precious interests. That she has done so while maintaining her characteristic decency, warmth, and good humor is a testament to her ability to bear even the most arduous duties with poise and confidence. But simply, Huma Abdeen represents what is best about America, the daughter of immigrants who has risen to the highest levels of our government on the basis of her substantial personal merit and her abiding commitment to the American ideals that she embodies. I am proud to know her, and I am proud, even maybe with some presumption to call her my friend. You write about that, Huma, and that meant the world to you, didn't it. And it made me miss politicians, particularly Republicans like John McCain so much. I feel exactly the same way. I mean, it feels as though the party is a different party than the party we we worked with in the Senate, both staff and you know, at a principal level, where you there was that decency, the honor, the respect that you know, standing up for values and principles that are shared values and principles, And it seems as though that was a different era. I don't I don't recognize this, uh, the new this new brand of of politics where you can say terrible things about a colleague and not even you know, get condemned. Has happened with you know, a f C a few weeks ago. I mean, it is shocking to me say terrible things and actually just lie about things. UM. Do you think will ever get back to a more civil, responsible time in politics, Katie? I think if we don't, it's the end of our democracy. There's no way forward unless we figure out how to work together, respect each other. You know, this administration certainly has their hands full and is you know, been trying to correct a lot of what went wrong, what went sideways, um in the last administration. But boy is it hard. And I think the only way forward is forcing people to the table and having these conversations. What is the alternative is just yelling at each other and you know, sticking in our corners and then nothing happens on behalf of the citizens in this country. After the break a peak into Hillary Land, Let's talk about how you joined forces in a way, or how you came to work with with Hillary Clinton. You started out as an intern in the White House. In seven months later, you accepted working at it for the First Lady's Office unofficially known this Hillary Land. What did that world look like at the time for you, and what appealed to you about being a part of it. So, first of all, my plan had been to become Christian. I'm on poor, not work in the White House, and certainly not work in the Clinton administration. I you know, I I share in the book how as a fifteen year old watching on TV as Operation Desert Store and was unfolding, I saw this woman who looked like she came from my part of the world, looking like she was this you know, truth teller out there, this intrepid woman, and decided that's what I was going to be. And so when I fell into this internship, a friend of mine told me about interning from Mike McCurry. I applied for the job, assuming I too would be interning for Mike McCurry. I was placed in the First Ladies Policy Office, and in fact, I recount how I was so surprised, like this was not my plan, and I stepped into the hallway and called my mother in with this old brick cell phone, saying, Mom, I didn't get the internship. In the press office. How am I going to become Christian? I'm on poor and she's look, maybe plan it doesn't work out, plant be might you know, just try Plan B. And it turned out to be pretty extraordinary. What I found is that I fell in love with the work. It felt as though it was a purpose driven place. Lots was happening. This was a first lady traveling around the world championing women's rights as human rights. It was a president who was, you know, um overseeing an economy. We were arguable an economy that was doing well. We were arguably the sole superpower in the world back then. It was just a different feeling of hope and possibility and optimism and the very personally, uh, the notion of, you know, the potential piece in the mid least was very exciting. So it felt like a cause and um And once I got hooked, I got hooked, and I was prepared to outwork everybody and do everything, even though I made lots of mistakes along the way. I recount a lot of those stories about losing the first Ladies clothes in the East River when we got off a helicopter, Like I didn't know what I was doing at the time, But boy, was I prepared to do the hard work? And what was it about your relationship with Hillary? I know that Philippe, the aforementioned Philippe Brains described you all as extensions of each other. Um, A, how do you feel about that? And B? And I don't know why I'm doing a lot of a B in this interview, but I am and and B how did that happen? I mean, how did you have such a vulcan mind meld so early on? I think it's right. I try to explain the culture of hillary Land as a place where you had professional support, where the conversations were things like, you know, how can we do this better? How can I help you with their resume? You should talk to my allergist, you know, how is your mother doing? And it was a culture that hillary Land, UM kind of uh just it was the existence in hillary Land, and Hillary Land was all of these things because Hillary Clinton was all of these things. I mean, she really this did come from the top down. It was I believed and I still, um, I still believe this to this day. That I was lucky to work for a woman who always thought there was space for more seats at the table. She is one of those rare leaders, in my opinion, who is not afraid of anyone else's intellect, not afraid that there might be somebody smarter than her at the table learning conversation with her, she welcomed those voices. But more than that, speaking about junior people like me, she saw things in in younger people that I'm not sure we even saw in ourselves. Like I think of what I'm doing right now with you, I'm doing the thing that scares me the most. Like I I I'm terrified of public speaking. I'm terrified of being out in the world. I'm terrified of doing an interview, let alone with somebody of your of your caliber, which is a dream of mine. But I'm doing it. And I believe that this is something that she has helped kind of build and cultivate UM throughout the years in hillary Land. That it's a club, it comes with lifetime membership. There's always going to be there for you. If I call Fleet now, as soon as we hang up, he will answer. You know. Just having that kind of supportive work environment I think is important and also I think pretty special. How much is that this is kind of a weird psychological question Huma, But how much of that is based on mistrust of the outside world and developing almost a cocoon like setting where you feel it's you, this group against the world because there were so many slings and arrows that were directed at you all Um through the years, Hillary in particular you by extension, and really the entire team. And I'm curious if that in some ways made those Daiose bonds even stronger. I think that's a really interesting observation. I had not considered it until this very second, and I think it's true. I think this notion of I share stories in the book of having people in my life who were prepared to tell me the hard truth, like Philip. Since we're talking about Philip calling and telling me that the you know, New York Times is about to report that I was pregnant, I mean, and it's and there was nothing we could do about it because it was news and it would be reported. And this, you know, the chapters in the book where I talk about you know, being the elephant in the room, not knowing who to trust. In part I think that goes to the point that you just made, which is you do become Um sort of surrounded in an environment that you feel protected and safe in. Uh, and it does make you a little bit wary of the outside. Well, I certainly I plead guilty to having you know that mindset. I don't know that it was conscious though in the two thousand sixteen campaign that it was. It felt like everyone was so cautious and so nervous and so worried about a misstep. And UM, I could not, for the like of me get get Secretary Clinton, I'll say, in that way, in this context to do an interview with me. And I'm curious if you think that kind of in celerity, if that's a word, UM might have worked against her during the campaign, because it was everyone was so so cautious about what she would do and potential mistakes she might make. Sharing the book during the campaign, actually conversations that Jennifer Palm Mary, who was our communications are hilarious communications director of campaigns communications director at the time, and having these experiences of going out and doing interviews and um, and even though she was rolling out a healthcare plan or she was rolling out a college plan, all the questions seemed to be about emails. As you might remember, emails sexy topic in and we absolutely and I you know, take even my own responsibility here, absolutely would sometimes say, you know what, let's let the speech speak for itself. Let's let Hillary's healthcare message, you know, be what stays out there, and let's not you know, add these three interviews or these two interviews. Absolutely we did that, and uh, in part because we predicted that the you know, the content would It was so hard to get outside of the email story for so much of that campaign, as you well know, and then you know, with the FBI kind of the eleventh hour, this breaking news. I mean, there was so much incoming from the outside and you know, I share the story in the book. Even during the convention when Robbie are then campaign manager, Robbie Mook says, what we're concerned about, you know, Russian you know, a foreign government trying to interfere in this election, and and and journalists on TV looking at Robbie like he has three heads, like are you suggesting? And of course it turned out to be true. But in the moment we were it was a cauldron of so much stuff, you know, being being thrown at us. And it is why I did spend a lot of time also talking about the challenge that sexism and misogyny played. It was. We knew constantly that the feedback was it was regular, but it was inconsistent. I don't like her jackets longer, shorter, put her in T shirts, put her in suits, change her hair, and I you couldn't please anybody. And I shared the story of a Hollywood director who called and said he would give us media training, give her media training. And I said, who who do you want Hillary to? Who's her model? And the answer was her husband? Great, Okay, any other ideas? Barack Obama amazing, also amazing communicator, also a man? Is there a woman? And I think in part because she has been the precedent, she has been the model in so many ways, there was no there was no way to get with that right. And we knew throughout that that was a challenge. Always knew that that was a challenge. That there are people who could not see a woman as commander in chief. So how did you? You? You know, how do you power through? I write a lot about that and covering Hillary myself and being in a position to call out sexist language, and how frustrating it was for me to see just buttons upon buttons at the Republican National Convention just uh, you know, eviscerating Hillary in the most crude, disgusting way, and you know, nutcrackers and the airport that are in Hillary's image and it it was very, very frustrating for me. And and I would even say to my friends who may work, maybe we're not Hillary fans, like why don't you like Hillary? And they would say it's not because she's a woman. They would give me, you know, a host of reasons. But I don't think people even understood the role of misogyny and implicit bias and cultural conditioning had in the way they were perceiving a candidate like Hillary Clinton. M absolutely and in two thousand and eight, and I did read that you had shared these stories, and you and I shared some very similar stories. Um, you know the Tucker Carlson that he could say things like she comes on TV and I want to cross my legs, or you know, she's a kind of person. I think someone else on Fox that who would yell at you for not taking out the garbage. Actually I think that was Mike Barnacle. It it very well could have been. I don't even remember that one, but see, I actually feel as though in two thousand and eight we, even us women, we did not know how to handle it. So the way we handled it is we giggled our way through ha ha. We just assumed this was the price you had to pay to be in the game. And by sixteen it was I would argue, at a whole different, you know level. It was attacks from all sides, and in part not understanding that some of these stories that were just outright fake news and crazy people were believed thing that she was dying, that she was sick, that she had murdered people, and there were emails with lists, and then the nonsense, frankly, was not only believed, it was believed by you know people who you and I probably might know, I mean, just reasonable, thoughtful, smart people. I mean, unless we change the way we consciously and subconsciously think, unless we raise my son, who is now nine young boys to not fear women's power, to understand and respect like, nothing you know, in my opinion, is going to change. And Kamala Harris is having sort of a difficult press run. I think the press is pretty lemming like and everybody seems to be jumping on that that bandwagon. But um, you know, do you see some parallels of how Kamala has been received with how Hillary was received? I do? I do. From the minute I that New York Times headline or which I'm actually not even sure if it was the Times with the headline and she was on her way to Paris to meet with Macron and the headline was in a murky you know, nobody understand why she's going, and then the article explains exactly why she was going. It is, in my opinion, she is having to endure a lot of what Hillary had to endure, the you know, just the automatic because of her gender, even though she is a smart, accomplished she was the first before she was vice president, I'd say she did something pretty incredible work as in her time both the Senator and Attorney General in California. But it's hard, and that's and and and I give her and her team credit for getting out there every single day. She's got a hard set of issues on her agenda. Boy, I mean, thanks a lot giving me the border, President Biden. I mean seriously, I mean, that's that's that's tough. And uh, well, we can talk, we can, we can talk offline, but I have definitely found some similarities. I find it often infuriating, and I wish them well. They've they've They've got a lot of had a tough job to do. When we come back coming to terms with Anthony Weiner, and are there parallels between Huma Aberdeen and Monica Lewinsky. You also, obviously, Whuma, talk a lot about your marriage to Anthony Weiner, and um, and I just from a sort of a human to human level, to have so much of your personal life exposed in this way and having to write about it, UM gosh, that must have been daunting, uh, because it's clear you still have a on some level, have a great deal of respect for Anthony, and you talk about that in in the acknowledgements, and I I'm curious what it was like to unburden yourself from that really challenging period of your life. You know, when the scandal first broke, I was not even twelve weeks pregnant, and I opened the chapter waking up in Buckingham Palace. We didn't just live a good life, we lived a perfect life. And I um, I was with the man that I was desperately in love with. He was my first love. He was the first man I had ever been with. He was my first Valentine state, and so I spent a lot of time not understanding as somebody who her whole life I've exuded control. I exert so much control in my life. To be married to somebody who could not control his behavior, I didn't get. It was in the you know, the first year or two after you know, Anthony had to resign. I thought, when you could just stop? Of course you just stopped, like one day, and it was years of therapy and going to many different therapists. Under Ending this behavior as a mental health challenge, as a compulsion, and eventually as an addiction is something that he could not, you know, get as I learned in you Know from our therapist that you know, when you are in the throes of addictive behavior, you do things and say things that when you are in your normal state of mind, you would never even consider. But it took me a very long time, Katie, to understand that. And because I feel as though this is a connection I have made with many people, mostly women, but just with people out in the world who find themselves in the me situation. How do I deal? When do I leave? When does it stop? Hurting, you know, when what how do I manage with my with my child? And from day one as a person who did not have a choice about when she lost her father, knowing I was carrying his child, I really wanted my son to have a chance as shot at having a home with two parents. That was very important to me. And then I just tried to fix things. I may there's something women just try to do. I tried to fix things at the beginning and then realized, I, you know what, I couldn't and and and and made the right choice for me. But he's gonna be in my life forever because of Jordan's So we have to figure out how to deal with each other. What is it that makes someone seek this behavior that is so incredibly risky and can destroy your life personally and professionally. You know, I'm always careful about how I talk about Anthony's you know, mental health and his you know, his his behavior, because that's his story to tell, and I really try to explain it and how it affected me. But to me, it's it was, you know, the minute he started receiving you know, through all these messages and emails and social media, all this affirmative encouraging and you know, uh kind of feedback. He yearned for it more and I think it just it, you know, I I found and as I share in the book, it actually got worse over time. His behavior escalated. Actually, it's almost like when you are on opioids and you need more and more and more to achieve that high or feeling of of well being. Exactly right, Katie, exactly right. It is. It is if you as you read the story, it's that, Yes, how does somebody lose everything their job, their family, their reputation and then fall back into the exact same behavior. That's not behavior one can control, and that's not rational, that's not somebody who's in there rational mind. But I, as the victim, really I respond to the beginning of let's just fix it and having a lot of anger, and I really resented. And we lost so much of our lives, We lost friends. I mean, I share the story of I was the person who walked in the room and people stopped talking. I was asked not to go back to a food bank, asked not to go to parties because we were distraction, you know, reminded people of immoral behavior. All of these things, those that does something to you. I mean what it did to my sense of self worth and security. I mean, in fact, I felt as though after the first scandal that Anthony and I ended up in this bunker together, we didn't know, you know, where we would go and be shunned. Um that was that was that was really hard to live through, I have to say. And even though we had supportive family and friends, you know, what do they do? I mean, they're they're so they're so ashamed. The behavior was so embarrassing and there's not very much they can do aside from just being there. And that's that's kind of that is what happened to us. It's strange, Huma, hearing you talk. You know, I got to know Bernie Lewinsky and his wife barb Uh, you know, shortly after the scandal involving Monica Lewinsky, and she had the same experience. She was shunned, she was shamed. She tried to volunteer at a woman's prison in London. They wouldn't even let her to volunteer work because they didn't want it to get bad press. I'm curious if this six variance with Anthony made you feel more empathetic towards someone like Monica Lewinsky and and with the benefit of time passing on and a real I think shift in in the way we view that whole situation, if if you've given that much thought. I do believe that my parents one of the things, UM, that was inculcated in me when I was very young, with this notion of radical empathy, having you know, to be the daughter of a man who could go into we could live in a monastery for a week to try and understand what other people believed they always you know, made us uh want to feel what it's like to be in somebody else's shoes, uh. I And I do think that was a culture in hillary Land too. And absolutely, I mean I think that this notion. I'm glad she's been able to tell her story, share her truth, UM is having an experience at this stage in life. I think we're about the same age where she can be out in the world and UM and and share how painful what she went through was. I mean, it didn't talk about and UM something that you know, uh was a huge moment in American history. I don't I can only actually can't imagine what it must have felt like. To carry well you can, I think imagine a little bit, given what you've been through, and you didn't feel I mean, it just is you're so loyal to Hillary and and so you didn't feel at all torn. I mean, this was such a complicated thing. You write a lot about this and about people questioning her decisions and how they could be perfectly understandable, and you know, all the kind of incorrect theories about you know, they have an arrangement and it's all about politics and UM. But I'm curious if, if, if sort of this reckoning about how Monica Lewinsky was treated, if you feel some if you feel sort of almost divided loyalty in some ways, having gone through what you've gone through and and being someone who does practice practice radical empathy. I uh, when I think about that time, I didn't you, as you say. I did end up writing a lot about it in the book, and in part because there are some parts of my life that you just can't make up in that I my um, all of my professional movement in the Clinton White House marked these big moments in that investigation. I actually write about the first time I was in the residence was the day the President Clinton was testifying. I write about my very first advance was the morning the story broke and here I was, um, fresh faced, you know, twenty one year old. From my perspective, whatever I was watching on TV. And maybe this now sounds, you know, so crazy. When I was watching all of these developments on TV, I it felt like an alternate universe because it didn't match what I was experiencing every day in my work, you know, every day we were getting up and doing something. And I the minute the story broke, when President Clinton told the truth, I felt as though this wall of protection around my boss, like I, she had so much stress. I was watching all of the incoming So how could I operate? Well, the only way, and maybe the right word is compartmentalizing, right, is the only way I could figure out how to move forward was to make Hillary Clinton's life easier, and that was to do my job perfectly. I don't think I understood anything about how she was feeling. Certainly, what Monica was going through, I couldn't even comprehend because it was so far you know, from my understanding. In hindsight, though, um boy, we as a society did not know how to when you see, she had to endure, UM and what she went through. And obviously I witnessed what Hillary had to go through, the women had to go through. It's um, Yeah, it's it's gut wrenching. Obviously, I have a lot of empathy for um what she had to go through. And I'm glad to see. I mean from the outside, I don't know where I've never met her. Um. It seems as though she really is finding her voice and her space and her place in this world. And I wish her well. I really do wish her well. A lot of lost years though a lot of last years. Yes, I want to ask you whom about um, sort of the days leading up to which is something you also write about. You write that you wrote in your journal. Um. After this, James Comey announced this investigation to reopen, uh, the investigation into Hillary's emails. UM. And that was after emails between you and Hillary were discovered on Anthony Anthony's laptop up and you right, I don't know how I am going to survive this. Help me, god? Uh you know now looking back on it, Huma, I know that Hillary has written and spoken about her belief that of the strong role this investigation played and in her ultimate loss. Do you believe she would have won had it not been for that reopened investigation so close to election day? Yes, I do. You know she wrote about it in you know, in detail, and what happened, and you look at you know, in a in a race that was this close, every little thing mattered. This was a big thing. In the final ten days. You saw the numbers tightening. Uh and and and actually the second announcement two days before, if anything got you know, the Trump supporters even more um uh motivated to go out. And so I think people who were trying to decide whether to go and vote for her or not didn't look she won with as you know, well know, three more million more people voted for her, But those seventy seven thousand people between those three states that we needed in these crucial states we lost. I absolutely believe that, and I have that is something I do have to carry to my grave, and that that that weighs heavily on me. And even in this moment of feeling a sense of liberation to share my truth, that is part of my truth, I do have to accept that. And and it's never gonna be easy for me to accept it. But I do believe it, Yatty, I mean, but but do you direct your your anger at James Comey because obviously the damage was done, the investigation was closed prior to the election day. But I remember thinking, oh, oh, this is this is going to really really hurt. There's already already amongst some voters this feeling of distrust for whatever reason, whatever it was rooted in. UM, this is going to be like shaking assault shaker into that wound. And I just felt, Oh, this is gonna tip people over. And it did. It did, and it felt it in that moment. It is why as as the news came in and we were on that airplane and I just couldn't I, you know, as I share and she shared, I just broke down on the plane because it was as much as I had tried to handle this situation, it was a shock we didn't understand. And in part for me, Katie, what was so um baffling is I write in the book when Hillary first announced for president, sitting in her conference room and going through these briefing papers as she was preparing to give a speech, and seeing that, um, the FBI had opened this investigation and they had asked senior staff members to provide information, and they mentioned my name in the story, but I had not been contacted. And so I am that person who goes back to her office and I call a lawyer friend saying, it is being suggested that I'm searching for emails of my possession, but no one's caught. What can I do to help? How do I put you know, how do I participate? And so the thing that you know still doesn't make sense to me is why nobody would have picked the phone and called us if look we found this, can we look through it? Called my lawyer, called Anthony's lawyer called We would of course cooperated. And to now know that there were other investigations going on that they chose about other people that they chose not to make public. Donald Trump, Donald Trump, thank you very much, because they didn't want to affect anything. To now say, well, oh, we assumed she was gonna win and this, you know, needed to be That's quite that's quite an assumption to make. And that ever run into Jim Comey, never run into him, never had a conversation with him. I've never had a Hillary not that I am aware of. No, she hasn't. I would know I would know. No, No, she hasn't. She hasn't seen him since then, And I've actually been asked. People have said, we heard that they tried to reach out. He tried to reach out. And I know the short answer is I will never understand, Katie, because I do believe it changed the course of American history. You in your acknowledgements, as I mentioned right, my son Jordan's saying is my reason for living, the reason there will always be laughter and joy, hope and promise and above all love. I've had so many words for Anthony Weener. If you have read the book, you know many of them. In the end, though, I want to thank Anthony for two things. First and foremost for our extraordinary son, and second for giving me an experience where I felt like I was the most special person in any room. Perhaps because our moment of total bliss was so fleeting, it was all the more precious. So there's a lot of forgiveness in your heart for Anthony. Do you think you would ever reconcile or has that train left the station? As my mom would have said that your mother has correct the train left the station a long time ago. But I think and in um when people say, do you regret, I wouldn't have my son, who was the most important thing, and he gave that to me, and so it's hard not to feel gratitude for that. And I know what it is life. I have not had a lot of love in my life in the in the romantic sense, um, but I had that with him, and it was it was pretty special and and I felt very special, and so I wanted to acknowledge that. And He's not perfect, but he has tried his own way to be a good parent at present, very a present parent, and so I did feel as though I should acknowledge him, and I did well whom I Your book is both and New York Times bestseller. Congratulations on that, and uh, and I really enjoyed talking to you as always. I don't think we've ever talk this much, even though I've known you for probably what twenty five years at this point years. I'm so happy to talk to you. Thank you for having me. I've as I think you know, I'm a big admirer reviewers for a long time, and so I'm I'm thrilled and thrilled to have been on the best seller list along with you, UH, and to read your incredible book and to be able to share my story the same time you're sharing yours, and so happy and hope we get together for coffee or dinner or lunch. I would really like that very much. Definitely call me will make it happen. A huge thank you to Huma Aberdeen for spending time with me. Her New York Times bestselling memoir is called Both and So go check it out. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of My Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media. The executive producers Army, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen, Associate producer Derek Clements, Adriana Fasio, and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by Derrek Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie currect dot com. You can also find me at Katie Currect on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.