49. Financial anxiety, money and relationships

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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology. Thank you everyone for joining us for another episode. This is one that I am incredibly excited about because we have a guest today, I guess, all the way from the US joining us to talk about financial anxiety and all things money in our twenties. So Hi, lindsay, Hi, I am so happy to be here. This is this is really exciting and I'm glad we worked around the time zone in day changes as well. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, that was one thing when you reached out to me. I was like, this is something we're going to need to sort out. FA's that you're in the US. I'm in Australia, but you reached out to me, and I just thought you had some incredible ideas and you obviously do fantastic work. So do you want to give us a bit of an overview of who you are, what kind of work you do, where you're from. Yeah? Sure. So I am based in Michigan in the United States, and I'm a financial therapist. So my background is in clinical social work. So I have that psychology training, that sociology training that allows me to be a practicing therapist. I think in Australia you use the term counselor. So I was a practicing therapist for probably eight years or so when I really went all in on financial therapy. And financial therapy is exactly as it sounds. It's the study of the psychological side of money, So helping people with the emotional side of money. So much less how to make a budget and much more. What is making it hard to look at your numbers? What makes you feel uncomfortable when you have to negotiate a pay raise? Is it hard for you to talk to a partner or a roommate about your finances? So thinking more about that side of money. Yeah, so that's the short of it. I suppose that's the short answer. That is an incredible explanation. I will say, before you reached out to me to come onto the show, I had no idea what financial therapy it was. It's not a massive thing in Australia, but it's such a valuable kind of position to have in society. It's such a valuable job to be doing because I think as you will explain more. Especially in our twenties, as we begin to navigate our own money for the first time, it can be really, really stressful and normally it's a very I think we think about financial advisors who tell you how to really treat your money, where to store and how to invest, how to budget, but it doesn't really account for the emotional side of things. So with that in mind, how did you get into this type of work? What was the kind of calling to begin this type of work with clients? Well, I did not seek out to become a financial therapist. So, like you mentioned, financial therapy is a relatively new niche within the world of therapy. So back when I got my degree, my master's degree, it was twenty eleven and I got my first social worksjob out of grad school. I was really excited about it, working at a nonprofit and I got my first paycheck as in my opinion, like a grown up, and I was earning less than I was as a waitress. And it Yeah, you can't see because we're on a podcast, but JE just like jaw just dropped. Yeah. But here's the thing that's not uncommon. It's not uncommon to go into a helping field and not earn, in my opinion, a living wage. But I had so much guilt and anxiety. In the States, higher education university is expensive. I had my parents who were able to financially help me, and so I graduated without any debt. And so here I am with relative financial privilege, and I'm still struggling to make ends meet. And I was so embarrassed that I had wasted my privilege or wasted my resources. I couldn't believe that it was going to be a struggle for me to make rent or to get groceries, and there was so much shame around it. And so I did what a lot of people do, you know. I googled how to make a budget, how to make ends meet on not a high income. I checked out books from the library, and everybody at that point in time was telling me the same thing, basically, like it's your fault. You should really stop going out to eat, and I just it didn't feel right to me. I was like, I'm not like going on shopping spreeze. I'm literally just trying to have my basic needs met, put gas in the car, feed myself, you know, pay my rent. And I just felt even worse. So the personal finance information was somewhat helpful, and then it helped me to structure a budget and be a little bit savvier about shopping, but it didn't really move the needle the way that we're kind of promised that it will. And it was a year into that job that I negotiated for a raise and was told not only would I not get a raise, but that I should be grateful that I had a job, and that I could feel in the pit of my stomach my heart just sank, my stomach sank. I felt so stuck here. You know, I've done everything I was supposed to. I even like mustered up the courage to negotiate a raise and was told no. Right then, I started looking for a new job that day, so fast forward, I got a better paying job. And what I noticed when I got a better paying job was that, yes, my finances improved, but what had happened when I was at my first job was not only was I stressed out about money, but as you can imagine studying what you do when talking about the psychology of money or I'm sorry, the psychology of your twenties, is that when we feel stressed in certain areas of our life, it impacts other areas of our life. So my previously well managed depression and anxiety had flared up. I developed insomnia, and I was getting colds and flues all the time, because you can imagine if you're not sleeping, your systems rundown. It's just this vicious, vicious cycle. So fast forward. I get this better paying job. I'm feeling better about making my ends meet, and I noticed that my depression and anxiety actually starts to dial down. I start to be old to sleep at night. Sudden, my immune system isn't so terrible. And it was just this moment emma of being like, you know, we can tell people all day, cut the lattes, cut the avocado toast, but we really need to be talking about the emotional consequences of under earning. And you know, for a handful of people, sure it might be miss or mismanagement in some way, but I really think a big part of it is that a lot of us aren't paid adequately for the work that we do, and we end up in fields helping healing professions where it's commonplace to not earn that much. So then let's see. Then I started studying financial social work and financial therapy, and eventually I carved out a niche for myself and went into really only serving clients who are struggling with the emotional side of money. And it has been incredibly fulfilling, incredibly validating. But no, it is never what I set out to do or had great plan of doing when I was in university. Yeah, well, that is actually incredible and I think a lot of people could probably relate to that experience you were talking about. After you get your first big girl job, you're making money and you almost expect to feel secure, but that just doesn't really happen. And especially now as you know, the cost of limiting becomes more expensive. Financially, we're seeing you know, inflation is on the rise. And yet still, like you said, a lot of I would say graduate jobs, the jobs that you get straight out of UNIQ pay absolutely nothing or very little, and especially if you're working in you know, caring roles, if you're a nurse, if you're a counselor, if you're an occupational therapist and entry level sych that is all stuff that is going to create a lot of worry within you. So in terms of the clients, that you say the majority of them kind of younger or older in their lives. I'll really be interested in the spectrum of the people that you say, Yeah, great, great question. So I'm a millennial, so I would say the bulk of my clients are also millennials, but I do have a handful that are older and a handful that are younger. So I would say most of my clients are like twenty eight to forty, but they range, you know, some are a bit older, some are a bit younger, but most of them are coming to me. They've had a couple of careers, career changes rather under their belt. They're starting to finally earn money, but there's still this fear. There's still this anxiety that's left over from their childhood or from the post UNI days where they weren't earning that much. And it's a lot of helping them to navigate where they are now versus where they were before. So I deal with a lot of financial anxiety and a lot of money shame in my practice. So this kind of gets to what I really want to pick your brain about today, which is financial anxiety first and foremost. But then how do we as individuals in our twenties. A lot of my audiences, obviously people in our twenties, how do you navigate difficult conversations and also your relationships? When you're talking about money, I think, yeah, it's a pretty big question and we have like an hour to answer it. But but I guess we'll start with financial anxiety. Can you give us the laydown? What does it feel like? What does it look like? Of course, financial anxiety is when you feel nervous, worried, or on edge when you are engaging with or thinking about your money, and that can show up almost identical in your body the way that traditional anxiety shows up. It can show up by knots in your stomach, your palm, sweating, dry mouth, clenching of your teeth, feeling jittery. Right can show up in those ways. It often shows up in racing worried thoughts. And the way that the behavior show up is that when a person who has financial anxiety looks at their paycheck or their retirement account or how much money is available, you know, somewhere in their life they feel those symptoms of anxiety. And when we feel symptoms of anxiety, we do everything in our power to not feel them. Right, Nobody likes that like churning in your stomach and the jitteriness and the craziness that comes along with anxiety. So there are two really quick ways to shut down this discomfort. One is through perfectionism and one is through procrastination. So perfectionism with financial anxiety looks like saying I'm going to research every single bank that I can find and put my money in the best one. Or I'm going to look at every single brunch menu in Melbourne and choose the one that has the cheapest option. Right. So these kinds of like overresearching, trying to do it the right way in order to tame their financial anxiety. Then, on the other hand, you have procrastination. If I don't want to feel that financial anxiety, I just won't deal with my money. I won't look at my bank account, I won't think about retirement, I won't even worry about telling my boss that they're paycheck late. Like, I just don't even have the capacity to look at it because it brings up so much anxiety. And something interesting about financial anxiety is that it's a myth that if you have more money or earn more money, you'll stop experiencing financial anxiety. So many of us experience it even as we continue to earn more, even as we continue to save more, because it's so emotional and it's less tied to logic. M that is incredibly interesting, like that, that procrastination and that perfectionism, And I think it would be it's very interesting in one way in particular, is that both of those things, wheth of those ways of dealing with money are quite socially accepted. I would say, yeah, yeah, absolutely, you know, I think I sometimes lead towards procrastination and now I'm thinking like, oh, it's just because I'm anxious about my income or am I just lady? And but also that perfectionism, you know, being really conscious about what's coming in and what's going out is something that people say as a sign of maturity and as a sign of being wise and of good practice. So I have a kind of maybe a more nuanced question for you, which is where do those two behave maybeas come from. Are there different people who might be leaning towards one over the other or what are some of the determinants of financial anxiety to begin with? Yeah, good questions, So they can be the same person in that you could be procrastinating by way of perfectionism, right, You could be putting off doing something related to your money because you want to do it just right, and if you can't do it just right, you don't do it at all. But it again goes back to this idea of we're not taught how to deal with anxiety, but we're certainly not taught how to deal with financers. So when you combine those two are there's just so few resources for us. You know, I'm so thankful for the explosion and information of psycho education on TikTok Instagram podcasts. I think it gives us so much more validity to say, oh, I'm not alone in feeling this way. But when it comes to financial anxiety, we just don't real really talk about it. So it can come from a bunch of different things, but really it is the physical sensation of racing thoughts and feeling uncomfortable. Is how is what makes us compensate with perfectionism or procrastination. And to your point earlier, these things are not necessarily frowned upon to research the best bank account. What's bad about that? But what's bad about it is that it can sometimes take precedence of actually figuring out what they want their relationship with money to look like. What would it be like to log into your bank account and not feel that wave of anxiety? What would it be like to go to brunch and not have to feel like you had to research everything you know for a week in advance before you went there. So really thinking about the amount of effort that it takes to try and avoid financial anxiety versus just saying I can tolerate a little bit of discomfort. I can learn to move through this. I can learn about money and also my relationship about money, so that if I experienced financial anxiety, hopefully it's either less intense or less frequent over time. M Yeah, that's really I think a great explanation. This is something when I first started talking talking to you, thinking about the work that you do that really interests me. And perhaps it is a bit more psychology, a bit Freudian, but can you kind of point to perhaps things that have happened as child or when you're younger that might manifest in financial anxiety. Do you tend to see that with your clients, Perhaps people who didn't have as much growing up really struggle with this, or those who had kind of inconsistent income streams, or their parents had inconsistent job or jobs or kind of financial avenues. Is that something you tend to say with your clients. Of course I do. So we cannot escape our childhoods. And just like we learn many things about the way in which we view the world from our childhood, we learn about money as children. And research has found that most of us have more or less made a decision about what money is or isn't, or what we're allowed to do or not do with it by the time we're eight years old. Yeah, so it's really interesting because many adults they don't want to talk to their kids about money. I can imagine many parents saying to their child who's five, six, seven, Hey, mom, how much money do you earn? Being met with a response of like, we don't talk about it. It's rude, that's impolite. So, of course, our childhood comes into play, and we learn about money, not just from our caregivers, but also from our friends, from where we attend school, from neighborhood we grow up in, from what spiritual or religious practices we have, and then also the different laws and policies that impact us. So it's not just the house we grew up in, but also where was that house located and what are all the layers outside of that house as well? And that of course can impact an adult's financial anxiety. If you imagine that the inner child is kind of driving financial decisions, it makes perfect sense why so many adults struggles so much or do things where they're like, I don't know why I keep doing this with my money? Right, Yeah, that is a very very interesting and I love that you said, you know, my inner child is the one who is making financial decisions, because I think that really sticks with me and some of my own financial decisions. So I'm like, oh, you know, because I perhaps didn't feel this was available to me as a child, or wasn't allowed to make these purchases like now I'm going to buy this, and I think I guess, Like, another really big thing I want to talk to you about is where do you go from there? You know, you've had this experience, You've you know, created this pattern of behaviors around how you deal with your emotional reactions to money. And if I was a client right now, if my audience was a client, can you give us an overview of what advice you would give them. Yeah, I would love too. So let's imagine you're in your twenties and you grew up in a household where money was tight, right, you overheard your parents or your caregivers saying like, oh, we can't afford that, or all we need to call the utility company. I'm worried we're not going to be able to make bills this month, or being told Nope, you can't go on that field trip, or we're not we don't we can't afford to go on holiday. So those are a lot of the messages you hear in your household, and growing up you felt quite anxious and vis about money, and fast forward to being in your early twenties, the message you internalized from your parents was it's important to work really hard so that you don't have to struggle. So then that young adult may end up coping with their financial anxiety, that fear that they won't have enough by throwing themselves into workaholism, let's say, but working a corporate job and then having a side hustle and saying no to hanging out with friends so that they can save money. And so that might be how they deal with that, their financial anxiety shows up as perfectionism. So what advice I would give to that type of young adult is, how true is it that you are no longer able to meet your needs? How true is it that it's going to be difficult to pay the bills this month? And to get really clear on where you are now versus where you were as a child, and with a lot of compassion, a lot out of kindness, saying something like, you know, oh, it makes sense that it's it's so important for me to work hard and save a lot of money, and I'm no longer that six or seven year old child. I now have the capacity to have money set aside for a rainy day, and I have more than enough to be able to join my friends every other weekend to catch up over drinks. So that would be the way that we would deal with it is logic, and then also bridging that gap and tying back into that emotional reason why they might have ended up in perfectionism and overworking as a way to deal with their childhood. Yeah, and those are such croping mechanisms, I think, you know, when we distract ourselves from our emotional experiences, it's like I think it's very textbook croping mechanism, and I love the way that you've explained that about really consciously thinking about where that would have come from. I also think from an Australian perspective, for our listeners who are in Australia, it is a real taboo thing to discuss money unless you are very very close with other people. Discussions around money are not something that has frequently had. There's also, I think a massive financial gap in Australia between those who can afford to enjoy their lives from a financial standpoint and invest money in things that they want and long term financial decisions, and those who do not have that opportunity. So, thinking about a system wide level or about a societal level, what do you think needs to change in society so that we see less people coming into their twenties or late adulthood experiencing this really deep emotional reaction around their finances. I love this question. When the the first when the Great Recession happened back in two thousand and seven eight, I was just finishing up university and graduating right into that, so I remember it very well. But the World Health Organization at that point in time, did a study of people's mental health and layered on how they were doing financially. And what that research found was that in countries where there were stronger social safety nets financial safety nets, people's mental health was less impacted. So I think of that data all the time when I'm thinking about how can we protect our young people from having to experience unnecessary financial anxiety. Right, we can help with the family dynamics, but you or I don't have the capacity to change the systems and laws outside of advocating for changes in systems and laws. So I think at baseline, I'm loving all of the worker unionization and organization that is happening globally, the demand for higher wages, for paid time off. In the US, we don't even have maternity and paternity leave like that goodness, Yeah, that's yeah, we don't have it. You can in some jobs, you can have twelve weeks of your job protected but unpaid. So having things like maternity paternity leave, having things like childcare. In the US, there's almost no childcare until a child goes to school in kindergarten. Everything else is paid. But whether you're US based Australia based, you're listening to this in Europe, having a strong social safety net that can capture people so that they can have their basics needs met food, shelter, clothing, transportation, that makes a huge difference. And what we know is that when those needs are met, people report that their mood improves. So I think for young people in Australia or elsewhere to continually advocate to have those types of policies in place, not just for yourself and warier friends, but for the the global health and for your country's health. We know that it makes a huge difference mentally when those needs are met. Yeah, and fabulous, fabulous answer, and I agree with every single part of it. I think, speaking from my own experience in Australia, we're seeing a huge push towards expanding social social safety nets. I think we already have a pretty amazing system. We do get paid maternality leave, we have a pretty amazing social security system called send a Link. But there have been huge discussions around the fact that it is sometimes less than thirty forty dollars a day that people are receiving. And you can, I think that yourself, as a financial therapist can very clearly say that and I think most people in general, that's probably not a great place to build a solid emotional and psychological foundation from a place of such instability, right, exactly, exactly, And if we continue to put it on individuals to improve their financial health, we continue to make it harder for everybody to get better. Right. It has to be a both, and it has to be the systems are in place to help us succeed, and we have to have access to education so that we can make our own wise decisions about our finances. Yeah, I absolutely agree. So we've talked about a lot of things so far. We've talked about talked about in a child, so, we've talked about system wide approaches. We've talked about your individual kind of mental state in relation to your finances. But I kind of want to move on now to talking about how do we manage money in our relationships. I feel like it's the next unit of analysis for us to kind of dive into. So, Yeah, there are obviously some big financial changes that come with entering out twenties or adulthood. What do you kind of say when it comes to people navigating their finances when you know they into long term relationships or with friends, or even with family. So I think as you are in your twenties and you're going through that transition into your your career, there's often a shift from not making much money into making at least better money, and with that comes more opportunities to do things with your friends. But as we know, people in the same peer group don't all make the same income. They don't all live in the same apartment complex. Right, we have different income and we have different expenses. So let's talk about maybe friends, and then relationships, and then romantic relationships. So when it comes to friends, so many people fall into ghosting their friends or rather than saying, hey, I can't afford that, right, so many people are like, you know, I don't want to tell my friends that I can't go wine taster, I can't join them for that you know, mini holiday. Instead I'll just kind of say sure, sounds great and then not show or cancel on the same day. And over time, what happens if we don't tell our friends why we're not joining them, It makes perfect sense that they would stop extending that invitation versus having a relatively candid but you don't have to share everything conversation with them, So In this scenario, Let's say you're a person who's earning less than your friend group, or maybe has different financial priorities than your friend group, and they love hangouts that involve spending money, and at a point where you're like, I mean, I could do that once a month, twice a month, but it's not a priority for me, or I'm not able to do it every week. So rather than ghosting, which is easy in the short term but harder in the long term, I advise people to kind of of that friend group, find the one that you're the closest, to have a chat with them and just say, hey, this is a little bit uncomfortable, right, name the emotion, name the feeling, but I'm hot a place financially where I'd love to do the things that y'all are doing, but I'm not able to. Would it possible to do some low or no cost activities and then give them ideas of things that come to mind. We could go on a hike, we could do a pot luck at my house, we could rent watch a movie on Netflix. Like, given them some ideas of things that you could do, And what I find most of the time is that the person on the other end. The person receiving it is usually a thankful to know that they weren't being ghosted on for no reason, but be they're also so relieved to have another option of things to do. I think in the States in Australia, it's very common for like the go to activity to be going out to a pub. But yeah, so many other things that we can do, and we often forget that there are options aside from going to the bar or going out to eat, and so reminding your friends of that. So that's what I would say for friendships is is have a transparent conversation. You don't have to tell them how much money you're earning or how much your rent is. You can just say, look, I'd love to hang out with you, but y'all choose really expensive activities, or you know, my budget better accommodates activities like this. That is great language to use, like my budget better accommodates activities like this. Providing example, she is literally scripting your lives. Yeah, just copy and paste, put it into a text message. If phone calls freak you out, put it into a text. Then you can spend some time kind of revisiting it, sitting on it, and then and then just send it. You'll be You'll be pleasantly surprised. I think so many people are much more understanding than we imagine they will be. Yeah, And I think it's also a kind of a great litmus test for your quality of your friendships. You know, if your friendships, Yeah, if they're not willing to accommodate your individual financial situation or your financial priorities, perhaps it's good to see if they are willing to accommodate you as an entire individual. And all of that comes with I think another thing, and perhaps it's very similar, but I would really like to ask you for your advice or what you think about this is the tendency to feel pressure to spend more money than you perhaps have or want to spend. And what some of the consequences that might have for your well being but also for your financial financial state, and what do we do around that kind of conundrum? This is a good question. So this is a phenomenon called lifestyle inflation, and what that means is when you earn more money, you spend more money. So as we move from entry level careers to maybe mid level careers, so I think from like your early twenties to your mid re late twenties. So hopefully you're moving up in pay and you're able to earn more money, which we love. And oftentimes what happens is that then you start spending the way that other people in those positions do. Right, So you move out of your one bedroom flat and you move into a house, or you move from kind of the rural area into the city, and then you're surrounded by people who have slightly nicer cars and slightly nicer clothes, and their nails are done and their hair is done all the time, and they go and get monthly facials and massages, and before you know it, you find yourself doing those same types of things with my clients. I find it's less about my clients aren't the ones typically who are like very brand name heavy, but we're all influenced by our peers, so it could be that they start trying to match the lifestyle of people around them, spending more money on hiking gear, let's say, or camping gear or whatever it is. And so when you find yourself in a place where you're spending more than maybe you anticipated or that you want to be, I always invite people to come back to how much is this purchase in alignment with my values? Because research shows that when we spend in alignment with our values, we are much more likely to rank that purchase as making us happy. So, for example, I personally am not a camping fan. I grew up camping, but I don't like doing it now. So if my friends were to say, let's go camping and I had to buy a new sleeping bag, a new lantern, and all this stuff, I would probably be pretty cranky about that purchase because it's not in alignment with my values. Now. However, if they were like, we're going camping, but you can just come along for the day and go hiking with us, I might be thrilled to buy a new pair of hiking boots and get to sleep at an Airbnb or at a hotel. Right, So that would be more in alignment with what matters to me. Is I still the distend quality time with my friends. I purchase a pair of boots that I will be able to use on this, you know, excursion and other ones, and I'm not doing something that I don't love. So I encourage people to do a loving audit of what they're spending on. If they're spending a lot on beauty or clothing or cars, ask yourself, how important are these things to me? For some people, they get so much joy out of the creativity of trying new makeup trends and trying new hairstyles. Great, go for it so long as you can afford it. But maybe for that person, they don't really care about going out to eat. It's not their thing. They're not a foodie, So maybe then they can dial back they're spending in that area. So it's it's less about cutting everything and more about cutting the things that don't really matter to you. You have really shine a lot on my own financial decisions. I'm so happy to do it. Yeah, And I think we have a word for this sinistry, very similar to lifestyle inflation, called lifestyle creep. And I was having a discussion with my friend about this the other day when you know, I didn't think about it much, and then your explanation, I've been like, oh, like dang, that is spot on. And as someone who is in the early twenties, you know, I've just started making serious money. As of a lot of my friends, it is so many I have money available to me, so it's so much easier to be like, Oh, if I had had this money when I was younger, I would have spent it on this or that and buying things that make me very instantly happy, but perhaps don't align to my values as you said, or what was the term you used. Was it alignment to your alignment to your values? Yeah, and alignment to how much I'm probably going to use it like I bought. Yeah, I'm not even going to shame myself anymore because I feel like you would probably tell me off for it, but I would do it but gently. Yeah, of course you would get at your job. So exactly. But I'm sure there are many people listening who are like, oh, Like that explains me to a tea lifestyle creep is so easy to get into, and especially when we think about social and group psychology and wanting to feel like we belong and a great way to do that is to present the same kind of indicators or facade or material items as other individuals within the group that we want to approval from. So I think it's definitely something to think about. Now. I want to pick your brain on relationships, particularly romantic relationships. So anecdotally, a lot of my friends have found incredible life partners, people that they love and great people. And I think that's something that happens a lot in our twenties and in Australia there is a tendency to move in or perhaps this is also an America, but to move in before you're engaged, before you're married, and sometimes to move in together but have split finances. So I feel like for those who are perhaps ready to make this decision already have made this decision and an out trying to find their footing, can you talk us through some of the problems or issues they might face, some of the things to account for. Of course, so that's what I did. I cohabitated with my partner for seven years. We actually bought a home together before we were engaged, and globally that is becoming more common for partners to move in together, share expenses, or do a their's mine and hours before getting married. We'd go off on that for a whole other thing. But I would say, first of all, like good for the two of you for acknowledging what works for you, and a great time to talk about money is of course, in my opinion, anytime, but also when we're going through a life change. So as you're getting ready to move in together, if you're deciding you want to get engaged, if you already lived together but you're looking to move those are perfect times to bring up the money conversation. And what we know is that couples who talk about money report being happier than those that don't, which is different than the convert, which is couples who fight about money are more likely to report separation or divorce. So it is a myth that talking about money will somehow break you apart. But we have to be conscious about how we are actually bringing out it up because to your point, it's taboo. It's something we don't talk about in particularly in both of our cultures. There's a lot of romanticism that floats around there about romantic relationships, like, you know, we just love each other and everything else just takes care of itself. But you know, love is a great part of a partnership and other things have to be in alignment as well. So again kind of leading with the this is awkward, this is uncomfortable, and giving your partner heads up that you want to talk about money. So it would literally be hey, vibe, I know we're getting ready to think about moving apartments. I would love if we could sit down later this weekend and talk about what our budget is and then just see if we need to change anything about how we're splitting expenses. So what you're doing is you're coming to them at a neutral time. You're not coming at them when you're mad. You're not like, oh my gosh, you blew our grocery money again, what's wrong with you? You're the worst. But you're not in that heated space. You're neutral, So you're coming at them from neutrality. You're also sharing how it's going to benefit the two of you. I want to make sure we can talk about our budget. I want to make sure we are on the same page about where we want to move. And then also you're giving them a heads up so that they can prepare to have that conversation, because so often we are caught totally off guard when somebody wants to have a hard conversation like that, or at least uncomfortable. Maybe hard's the wrong word, but giving somebody a heads up be helpful, and then to actually have that conversation. I recommend sitting down without distractions, or as few distractions as possible, having one or two things per kind of conversation that you're going to talk about. So in this example, let's talk about our apartment budget and make sure we're still okay splitting expenses the way we have been. And then once you answer those two things, you kind of shut it down. Then you open the door to have a money conversation later on, because what we want to do is build in what I call money dates, and that's where you're talking about money regularly, but it's not all the time. You can kind of table those money conversations for once a week or twice a month, and then you can also when you're having that money discussion, also know your partner's boundaries and your boundaries, right. I know, for me, if I suddenly get really quiet in a discussion, that's a cute that I'm probably being triggered a bit or I'm being pushed too far, and that's probably a time for me to say, you know what, I can feel my tension rising. Would it be okay if I stepped away for a few minutes and then came back. And then we also have to know when it's time to just shut down the conversation altogether. And try later. So it could be I'm totally shut down, I take my five minute breather, I come back, and I'm immediately emotionally dysregulated again. That would be a cue for me to say, Bay, let's actually finish this conversation tomorrow. I'm kind of maxed out. I appreciate that we're talking about, but I can't. I can't keep going right now. So having some parameters around that conversation, acknowledging that it's awkward not catching your partner off guard, or all tips that I would advise anyone, particularly folks in their twenties. M that is fabulous advice. I'm gonna listen back to this if I reached that stage, or I'm thinking about money with my partner or someone else. So can I just propose one more anecdote to you, more hypothetical, So say you and your partner really disagree about money, or perhaps one of you is more generous with the income. I've definitely found myself in this position before, where I was contributing to more items that we would both share, or two trips, or to petrol in the car, things like that. I think that's obviously a place of great attention, and perhaps there's greater room for conflict in that scenario. What kind of ways would you approach approach this situation? So, for sure I would have the conversation about who is in charge of or who is responsible for each of these different financial expenses. So for many couples who live together and aren't married, or who have chosen to not merge everything, I love doing a theirs mine in ours bank account system. That's where one person has their own money, the other person as their own money, and they contribute to a shared account that is only for joint expenses, so rent, petrol, groceries, things like that. Then whatever is in each of their individual accounts they can spend or save as they like. Now, when it comes to one off things like holiday, I think that's when having another conversation can be helpful, Like, Hey, we have so and so's wedding in a few months, I think we should probably set aside some money for it. How are we going to do that? So having those conversations ahead of time can be hugely, hugely helpful. And then if you do end up doing that type of accounting system, let's say, if your partner spends their money not your joint money in a way that you want to roll your eyes at. You have to be comfortable enough to let it go. So if they want to go spend their money on I don't know, tuning up their car or buying a bunch of sneakers, so long as your shared expenses are met, have to be really comfortable saying that's their money that they're allowed to spend how they want. So you know, you know yourself, you know your relationship well, and see if that would work for you. But that's the method I like, And the asterisk I will add there is that for that shared account. Depending on the regulations or depending on your comfort level, you might not be comfortable enough to actually open a joint checking account together. So then what you would do is kind of tally up your expenses and have one person, let's say rent was a thousand dollars, one person would pay rent and the other person would pay for groceries, utilities, and phones, and nat adds up to a thousand dollars. That's another way to do it to where you're contributing somewhat equally to the household expenses. Yeah, and I think with everything you've just said, it's about being comfortable enough to approach your partner with these discussions, and I think a sense of vulnerability and honesty with them. I love the advice that you've given throughout this throughout these kind of discussions has been named the feeling and be really honest about it. And I think when you're able to do that, and you're able to be like this is uncomfortable, you almost create kind of like an equal footing and equal level playing field for you and the other person. Okay, I want to just ask you find any final pieces of advice. I also want to talk about your book, which I can see you guys can't see it, but I can see is right over your shoulder. I think it's an amazing resource. So I'll give you some space now to if you've got any final thoughts, final pieces of advice, and then please plug away, because I want people to to know your content and to know who you are. I think it's amazing. Thank you. Yes. One final thing that I am to almost all of my conversations is that no matter where you are in your journey with money, plan to make mistakes rather than planning on learning and executing things perfectly. Know that you will make more money mistakes, and that's perfectly fine, just as we expect to make mistakes and other areas of our life. We're going to burn dinner, We're gonna lose directions to a restaurant we're supposed to go to. You're going to make mistakes. This is a part of the journey. And rather than beating yourself up or being hard on yourself, I invite the listeners to just extend themselves some compassion that this stuff is hard and awkward and complicated, and it will take more than one podcast episode as great as this one is, more than one podcast episode, more than one book, more than one YouTube video to start cultivating a healthy relationship with money. So give yourself lots of permission to make mistakes. Know that that's totally normal and I plan to make many more in my life. Yeah, yeah, very great advice. And then can you also give us a book but also of your services if people are interested, because I feel like if you are someone who is listening to this episode, you're probably are struggling with financial anxiety or how to navigate finances in relationships a little bit. So can you talk more about what you offer and how you go about it, of course. So my business is called Mind Money Balance. You can find me in all the social places at that handle. My podcast is of the same name, my websites of the same name, and I help people at the intersection of money and mental health. And I do that through coaching, therapy and speaking engagements. So I invite you, if you enjoy this conversation, to follow along and see if there's any other content that resonates. And then my book is called The Financial Anxiety Solution. It is a workbook. It's highly interactive. It is really focused on some of the things that we covered today. How do you think about money, how do you feel about money? Or are your financial behaviors how much are they helping you or harming you? And it gives you a lot of tools to help you dial down that anxiety, normalize it and help you learn to recognize your own patterns in terms of your relationship with money. And you can get that book. I invite you to have your independent bookseller order it for you, but of course you can get on Amazon. But I just like keeping money in the local bookstores as much as possible. Yeah, if you're in Australia. I also think that that's something you should do. Go to your local bookstore. They don't get enough support. Well, thank you so much. We have been speaking for almost an hour. It's just flown by, and I honestly think that I kind of got a personal therapy session out of this my pleasure. I truly love talking about this topic and I no matter what stage of life you're in, this topic is important and I'm so honored that you said yes to having me on and I hope all the listeners took little bits and pieces away from them. Yeah, I absolutely think that they did. This has been one of my favorite episodes, So a big thank you to Lindsay and Matt. Yeah, and if you do want to know more about this topic, please follow her. Her instagram is incredible and provides just really amazing bite sized pieces of advice that you can filter into your own lifestyle and as you say fit. As always, thank you so much for tuning into this episode, this special guest episode. I really loved having Lindsay on board, and as always, if you enjoyed the show. If you enjoyed the episode today, please give a five star rating on Spotify podcasts, Apple Podcasts, wherever you are listening right now. It really helps the podcast to grow and to reach more people. Additionally, if you're really enjoying the intent, we now have a paid subscriber version where you get bonus content every month. If you're interested, please go to the link in the podcast description and thank you again for listening. I'm sure I'll see you next week, when we will be discussing more about the psychology of our twenties.