Superagent Hughes Norton on Tiger Woods, the Origins of the World Tour Model, and More

00:00:00
Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.

00:00:02
Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

00:00:05
Speaker 1: And when I find my.

00:00:05
Speaker 2: Ball in a brid egg Friday Egg Friday Friday Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.

00:00:34
Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Friday eg Golf Podcast. I am Andy Johnson. Today we have a big interview. We've got Hughes Norton, who was one of the one of the biggest agents in the game of golf for a couple of decades. Repped everyone from Curtis Strange, Ben Crenshaw to Greg Norman, and he signed Tiger Woods. He was Tiger woods first agent. So lots of stories, lots of thoughts on the current landscape of golf. He just wrote a book called rain Maker. So that book goes for sale on sale today on Amazon. You can purchase it there. It's a super interesting book. You can you learn a lot about like the business of golf and how business of men's, men's and women's professional golf. I mean, on top of the men that I mentioned, he also repped like Nancy Lopez, Laura Baugh, so a a formative figure in the world of golf, and he has a lot of stories, lots of great stories. The book is full of some amazing insights into some of the best players ever to play the game, so I recommend checking the book out. Also was really fun chatting with Hughes. Could have gone for hours with all the stories and information that guy has in his brain about men's professional golf. So excited for everybody to listen to that on the back half of this. But first, Joseph, what are you in on?

00:02:20
Speaker 2: Andy? I am in on the Houston Open in a better time slot here in the spring this week Memorial Park, interesting golf course, public golf course. The Houston Open's been in the fall when they've had the tournament at this particular golf course, so it doesn't always get quite the same strength of field that it might this week, really interesting golf course to watch. I'm excited. I think more people will see this golf course promoting a public accessible facility. I'm excited about it. It's different, it's short rough, it's not this thick rough test that we've been watching the last few weeks, really since the beginning of this year. Different type of golf course, tight runoff area, I'm really excited for it. I think it's gonna be a fun tournament.

00:03:03
Speaker 1: You know, I have wanted to go see this golf course for really ever since Tom built it, and I am kicking myself that I haven't been able to make time to get down there yet. Hopefully this year I'll get down there. But I think it's amazing what this course has done. I think it's one of the more underrated golf courses on tour, and it's just unbelievable how this golf course is able to challenge the best players in the world while being one of the most popular and busy golf facilities in the entire country. I think that is like the pinnacle of golf design is be able to marry those two where you remain playable and feasible for the general public and be able to test the very, very best in the world. I'm excited to see that in a better slot. Also, like it's going to have a lot better feel than we've typically seen in the fall, and I'm I'm fascinated to watch that tournament next week. You know what I'm in on, what are you on? I'm in on going abroad for golf trips I just got back from basically two weeks in Northern Ireland, and I gotta say, I am not a planner. I am not somebody that is good at planning. I am not somebody that and and because of this planning issue, it like limits my ability to go on these types of trips. But it's absolutely worth it if you're not a planner, if you're if you're a procrastinator like me, like I every time I get back, I'm just like, why why don't I do this more often? And I think with Ireland, for the vast majority of the country, it's exceptionally easy to get to. Like you're talking about just getting on a flight and you wake up and you're in double one. You're in like a world class city and you're the golf is at your fingertips. And like the other thing with the Dublin that I thought was like underrated that doesn't probably get talked about a lot, is you do the the immigration, you do like the customs before you get to America, so you like do it in Dublin airport and it's done so you land as a domestic flight. It's super easy. I keep getting reminded of this. I hope this isn't the only trip I go abroad. If I do, my procrastination will have gotten the best of me. But like every time I'm over there, I'm like, why don't I do this more? And the golf is awesome, It's unbelievable. It's just it's great to experience a different culture. And the people in Ireland were amazing. I know that gets talked a lot, but it was very true going.

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Speaker 2: Abroad for people who are overwhelmed with the prospect of booking an international trip. How far out do people need to book an Ireland golf trip?

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Speaker 1: Listen, I don't think you know, if you want to play like the very best courses, yeah, you need to be on it right they book up, But what does that mean like County down in Port Rush. Uh, you gotta be like a year out. I think I think we're gonna have more on this, you know, you know eventually. But the uh, but the you know, you can go play like the second rate golf courses. It saves money and they're they're like really good and you don't have to plan out to do that. That's the thing is like, if you want to go play some of the less known golf courses, Like I played a place called Beltray. You could go play there. That place is unreal. You could go play there any time, and you know, you don't have to be planned out, And I think that's like the the thing that people like go and they have to play the the open road to courses if you're in Scotland or if you're if you're in Ireland, you want to play like the big ones like maybe Port Marnock or Port Rush or County Down or the Hinch, But there's so much other good stuff and it's an easy trip to make. The flights are really cheap, and you can get over there and you can play some awesome golf, Like you're not getting short change, you're playing better golf than that that's available in the US. Right Like you're you know, like for most of the country, it's easier to get to Ireland than it is to get to Bandon, you know, and you're playing some golf courses that are you know, at the same level as Banded. So I just think that it's it's not thought of enough. And I'm like, I'm very much guilty myself of feeling like overwhelmed, But it's not that hard. If I can do it, anybody can do it. And you think figured out and felt really good about driving on the wrong side of the road. If you want to hear more about our trip though, check out the Explorations podcast. And it was awesome having Rory join to talk about Northern Ireland. That was amazing that. I'm I can't thank him enough for giving enough given us time. That was near the highlight for you, huh.

00:08:26
Speaker 2: Him the light the thirty second clip of Blockie that may have been the highlight for me right.

00:08:32
Speaker 1: At the end. We got you at the end. He is a cliffhanger. What do you say? He said, no, no, Michael, it didn't go in. It didn't go in there jumping up and down because I hit it twenty yards right at the green.

00:08:45
Speaker 2: That was pretty good.

00:08:48
Speaker 1: What are you out on, Andy?

00:08:50
Speaker 2: I'm out on the way that gambling is being promoted right now. I just saw the they're going to be adding live odds to a League pass so that while you're watching a game, you can just click and immediately place bets within one click. I think that the way gambling is being shoved in people's faces is pretty unhealthy. I am pro gambling. I think it should be legal. I think it should be regulated and destigmatized, but the way it's being crammed down people's throats, I think we're going to have a real problem. I think it's also worth calling out that there are some pretty predatory practices by a lot of these books, and if you actually are somebody that wins, they'll limit you. So if you're consistently placing winning bets, you're not going to be able to bet anymore, or you're only going to be able to bet a very small amount of money. They're looking for losers, and it's being promoted by a lot of big sports leagues in a way that I think golf needs to be really thoughtful about, because you're going to be able to bet on this player hitting the fairway or missing the fairway, and it's only going to become more part of people's lives, and I think building a sport on gambling addiction headed for that. A lot of young people are really getting into it to where that's the main way they consume this sport is through gambling, and I'm not sure if they're actually like getting invested in some of the other parts of this sport. I think the alarm bells need to be sounded a little bit, and golf needs to be thoughtful about the way they proceed I am.

00:10:17
Speaker 1: I'm for gambling being legal, and I think like people, adults should be able to make their own decisions about how they live their life. Same that being said, I've said this before on the Shotgun Start. I feel like gambling and the commercials and the way it's promoted is this era is smoking at I think we're gonna look back in fifteen years and we're gonna have like a generation of people that grow up thinking that, like, gambling's cool. I used to gamble. I gambled in when I was in college before it was legal, you know, and we had a bookie and I learned by lesson that you know, like it's really hard and it's kind of stupid. But to me, this this era of gambling advertising and kind of the wild West that we're in, has made it look like appear cool. It's just like the Joe Cammel with camel cigarettes or the Marlborough Man. It's made it like the trendy thing you know, to talk about with sports is centered around gambling. And you know, I don't think necessarily that's how a sport on network television should be talked about when you have fifteen, sixteen, seventeen year olds or even younger watching the sport because it is you know, that's why they banned cigarette commercials, because it's like, Okay, they are employing tactics that like really like warp kids, you know, way they think about the sport. So yeah, I agree. I think gambling should be part of the sport, but it shouldn't be the main discourse of the sport, which it seems to be coming. And if you wonder why that is is because it is all paid for. It's all effectively sponsored content. I guarantee that the broadcast doesn't want to take a break to talk about the live gambling outs of a player when they tee off on Saturday afternoon. I guarantee that's not what's running through Dan Hicks's head or you know. But you know what it is. It's paid paying a lot of bills. And that's the thing that I think people need to realize. This is all sponsored content. So who's paying that The gambling companies because they're attracting losers and exact making more money.

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Speaker 2: Right, it's a bunch of people who are losing money gambling, like that's where the money's coming from. Andy.

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Speaker 1: I heard it.

00:12:51
Speaker 2: I was at a wedding last summer and some high school kids were talking to me. One of them had lost fifteen hundred dollars gambling didn't have the money an He said, it's rampant at his high school. I think there's a problem coming. I'm for gambling. I like to gamble, but the way it's promoted it needs to be responsible.

00:13:06
Speaker 1: Just you know, like it should be like cigarettes. You can't advertise.

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Speaker 2: Them for a comment.

00:13:12
Speaker 1: I know I'm costing you know, like I know I'm costing myself money. You know. I own a media company that we could have gambling. I think like we aren't necessarily opposed to a gambling sponsor. But at the same time, I'm not like jumping through hoops to go get one because I just don't think it's necessarily like responsible thing.

00:13:32
Speaker 2: I'm with you, what are you out on?

00:13:35
Speaker 1: I'm out on the PGA tours like complete, complete, completely abandoning match play. The NCAA tournament has to be thinking about the Dell match play, the old Dell match play at Austin. This is the first year, we don't have it, and it's like I kind of feel a void. So I'm out on I'm not having the Dell matchplay. I missed match play. I think it's ridiculous that we only get it in these team competitions. It's a great format of the game. It led to some of the most memorable moments in professional golf over the last decade happened at the Dell match Play. You got like the Keegan Miguel n Hell situation. You had that great, that epic rom DJ match with the you know when rom was coming out and becoming a big name, where the Porta Potty door slammed. You had controversy like the the Sergio and Couture thing beef. You know, it was a place where that tournament was just fun. It was different. It was you know in even even as the tour tried to mangle it with the pool play, it just was. It was a nice different tournament and at a really interesting venue and in a fun city. And now we we just don't have match play. It's just all seventy two hole stroke play, and it's kind of like, what what are we doing?

00:14:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, the PGA Tour always kind of went with the line that I don't know if it's the PGA Tour or some of the television partners, but that it was impossible to televise Sunday right there's only a couple of golfers on the course. It's slow, it's boring. I never liked that argument, Andy. I think there are ways that they could have made it more exciting. I know you've talked about this a little bit. You could have more matches play out for more.

00:15:19
Speaker 1: So they they had to play out the eight spots and have like the difference between seventh and eighth be fifty thousand dollars, Like would you tune into two of the best players in the world playing a fifty thousand dollars match? And I guarantee they would care about it.

00:15:35
Speaker 2: There were ways that I think they could have been creative and made a more compelling Sunday television product. I think if there were more match play on tour, you'd have more context. This player's record against this player is X, Like it would just be fun to have more match play on the PGA Tour. You could convince me, if you're building a tour from scratch that at least twenty five percent of the schedule should be match play, Like this might be a huge untapped opportunity, so to get rid of the only event that was matt and it was a successful event by all accounts. I'm with you. It's it's a travesty that we don't have that anymore.

00:16:06
Speaker 1: It's that's the thing they're missing out on, is the like why can't this guy beat this guy? Right, he's got his number, and you know so and so is a better player, but like, what is it about playing against this guy that that gives them problems?

00:16:22
Speaker 2: Rivalries?

00:16:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean match play gets chippy. We saw it at the Ryder Cup with Rory and can't lay like it gets can't laz Caddy really hum it makes it makes for memorable moments because they're playing one on one as opposed to I'm playing the field, I'm playing the course that stroke play is. It is just generally a more interesting thing. I mean, like think about think about you know, the when the when the Giants beat that Patriots team. It was an incredible upset and it was like, well, they matched up pretty well, like they had they had good pass rush, pass rush that was able to get to Brady right and and it's like, you know that that is like an interesting thing I always think about match play. What's fascinating to me is how there's all these like little moments within a hole and it's kind of like a volley in tennis. I always think about it with tennis, where where the t shots that serve and you have these power players and a power player might have a huge advantage off the tee, but that shorter player then has the ability to hit a great return shot, which is the you know, the second shot in and then all of a sudden can flip the tables. And you know, there's players play differently in match play too. There's more heroic recovery attempts because because there is the you're not trying to just build a foundation of around and build a tournament around. I'm going to try and limit my mistakes to bogies. They know, if I'm out of position, my opponent's in position, I need to try and hit a great shot here to salvage this hole or to try to win this hole. And it just that leads to a more exciting version of golf. And it's so like I think golf telecasts four matches really well. They can do four matches really really well. When you get to like eight plus it, you know it's hard for them to follow every match. So make the last like, have the last eight eight spots play out if you're going to do a match play event, because then you have four matches on both weekend days, and that's that's going to help the broadcast. That's going to make it a really fascinating product.

00:18:41
Speaker 2: Totally agree. I love the point. I'm glad you went with this point of making for a more exciting style of play because I think we've seen a professional golf the more players have gotten better with their course management, Like it's a lot of disaster avoidance in general right now with golf. But it would promote a more exciting style of play if players were less concerned about that triple bogee doesn't matter in match play. It's the same as a bogie most of the time, right You just lose the hole. So I think golf has gotten a little bit more boring in the way that professional golfers attack a golf course. Match play would change that, and it would introduce some of that competitive element. Having records this guy's want to know, it would be pretty exciting if we got it back.

00:19:20
Speaker 1: So I'm with you, you could do an entire season around match play, like a part of the season. I don't think that would be really cool. Like I think at the beginning of the year it might be neat if you and I I know you don't want to mess with the the West Coast swing that much. But if if you know, until we get to March, do these stroke play events matter that much? You know, like, would it be just better if it was match play? I think like it's this is a difficult situation that the tours in is that we know it's going to be reworked, that it's going to different when we get through this kind of negotiation period. What is it that's going to drive the most fan interest? I think match play, if done right, could drive the most fan interest because it would be the most exciting and easy to understand version of the game. This guy's playing this guy. This is how the match works, and if he's three down with three to play, he is going all out. He's not playing the middle of the greens.

00:20:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that this podcast is very in favor of the tour Championship being a match play event.

00:20:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, that could be the other example. You go to the playoffs and it becomes mono imano i no brain. Yeah, it makes it more approachable to a wider audience because it's easier to understand. You know, if you want to talk about gaining like the big swaths of fans having them like, there's a reason the match usually, you know, especially early on rated so well. Was they had big names. But also it's super easy for a non everyday fan to understand. It's like, oh, they won this hole, they lost this hole, they go one up. It's kind of the way sports work, right, there's a scoreboard that's really easy to understand.

00:21:13
Speaker 2: Steven Ames, Tiger Woods is still a moment that people reference like it creates those moments because it's hyper competitive. So we need to better.

00:21:19
Speaker 1: Anthony Kim Allen b absolutely all right. Before we get to hust Norton, let's talk about our sponsor, Blackjack Beef Jerky Listen. I just got back from Ireland and the way our schedule shook out. It was just interesting days. We were shooting in the morning and then we were playing golf across the middle of the day. That didn't leave much time for lunch, if any. We actually went like four or five straight days without lunch and the only reason that I survived is because of Blackjack beef jerky. Jimmy was great. He sent us a bunch of jerky and it really came in handy. This stuff is really really good beef jerky. It's got sodium content. The most major brands of beef jerky has got thirty three grams of protein per bag. So you can see how you can just throw a bag in your in your golf bag and it can just give you a lot of sustenance during a round of golf. So protein it's got. It gets you your protein and iron. That's the big thing here. You know the you know you get that, get that juice for the back nine and you won't run out of gas. So Jimmy is a golf nut. He lives and breathes this stuff and he has a great deal for you guys. So twenty percent off a single bag or a three bag purchase if you use the promo code Shotgun a five bag purchase. If you do a five bag purchase, it will be twenty percent off plus free shipping. And if you want to buy Blackjack Beef Jerky, go to Local Palette Marketplace dot com slash pages slash fried Dash, egg Dash golf. That's Local Marketplace dot com slash pages slash fried Dash, egg Dash golf. I know that's a mouthful. Use the pro discount code shotgun at Local Palette Marketplace dot com. Thanks to Jimmy for the support, and uh, it's really great beef Jerky. Let's get to Hughes Norton as a reminder, this book is available on Amazon and big thanks to Hughes for all the time. All right, Hughes, I am. I'm fascinated by certain players in the history of golf, and one of the players that I'm most fascinated by is Bobby Clampitt. I can never get enough Bobby Clampitt stories. You represented, Bobby Clampett. What is your favorite Bobby Clampitt story?

00:23:52
Speaker 3: Couple that come to mind? The one that one people know and one don't. They will now because of the book, But the first one when he was an amateur and real golf fans going way back, you'll have to reach back to remember this one. I'm gonna say it was the US Open at Inverness, which I think was early eighties. I should know that. But Bobby was an amateur, had qualified to play in the US Open. He was the leading collegiate player. He was far and away the leading US amateur. I was recruiting him for a number of years before that, but he was still an am And he missed the cut, and he hung around until Saturday for whatever reason, and the USGA came to him I guest Friday night and said, look, we have an uneven number of people. Will you play even though you missed a cut, will you play with I want to say it was Craig Stadler, but who met was at the bottom of the cup, but it doesn't matter. So they get out on the course and Bobby had all these trick shots, you know, he would just fascinate fascinate people with growing up. And one of them was hitting a driver off his knees, which you know you've seen players other players do, but this kid could crank it two fifty down the middle, over and over and over. So they're in the middle of the round and he just you know, it didn't matter what he shot correct and I guess he thought it wouldn't bother Stadler Sadler's a good guy. Stadler said, probably, you know, do whatever you want. I'm sure Bobby asked him in advance. So he teed off from his knees. And of course the USGA, they softened a bit over the years, but they were the uh, the upper crust, stiff, lip stiff, upper lip, blue blazer, none of that nonsense, and they were they were incensed, and they they gave him a lecture. I don't think they may have taken him off the course when word got ground was fine with Bobby. He was done anyway. But that's one great memory. And he just was a fun loving kid. I mean, he just that epitomized, you know, golf can be such a grind and such a business and such a hard profession, especially if you're slumping or whatever. He just he just had a lot of fun with it, had a great attitude. So fast forward a few years and thanks to my talented collaborator, George Pepper, who I can't say enough about, we can get into that. Without George. First of all, this book never happens, and second of all, it doesn't flow and become the really good read that I think it is without him. But George and I. We kind of lived through the wars together in those years. He was the editor of Golf magazine and I was an aspiring young agent. We became friends. We were on the opposite side of the table a few times on negotiations for players because George did a couple of books with our clients, Curtis Strange and Greg Norman to name too, so we knew each other were friends as much as adversaries in business. And we played some golf together. So he called me up one day and said, look, slow play really really pisses me off, and we need to make a statement. And that statement, a lot of people will remember because it was famous, was can we play fifty four holes in one day? Didn't sound too hard to me? And then he said, here's where the fifty four holes are. We're going to start at Saint Andrews. We're going to then fly to New York and play wing Foot, and then we're going to fly to Carmel and play Pebble Beach. And I said, yeah, good luck with that. How are we going to do that? And he said, well, there's an invention called the concord. He had gotten us four seats and the foursome was George, myself, Bobby Clampitt and Brian Morgan, who is a Scottish photographer of some repute. He was great. So at the end of this odyssey, I won't go through it all, but we played Saint Andrews in two hours and twenty minutes afoorsum, never ran a step, walked briskly and hit win ready. That was Georgia's whole point. Went to Wingfoot, played there in two hours and forty five minutes, had a private jet to California and played Pebble Beach in the relaxed pace which we once we knew we were going to make it and beat the sun Goull going down. That was three hours and fifteen minutes. Can you imagine playing Pebble Beach at at that speed and we're on the eighteenth Green.

00:28:07
Speaker 1: An afternoon, give it the turn? I think a regular patron, a regular customer on an afternoon, it's looking at six hours the beach. You know you're playing fife.

00:28:19
Speaker 3: Yeah. And the famous thing at Pebble Beach is they run tea times like un till two o'clock in the afternoon and all these tourists come and take the tea times, knowing that it'll take five hours plus and they're not going to finish by dark, but they still do it anyway because it's a trine and everybody has to try to play it once, so anyway, we finish. We're on the eighteenth Green. It's twenty two hours since we started. Andy the Elders, George, myself and Brian were exhausted physically mentally, the works. We have a champagne toast on the eighteenth Green. The photographs are all taken and as we start to disperst Bobby says, Hey, anybody want to come over to my house and play hoops? And he was serious. Just that's the energy and enthusiasm and fun nature of Bobby Lamp. But I love this kid from the very beginning. I still love him as a great friend. He's he's a wonderful, wonderful guy with a great family and uh he has a nice place in the book deserves So.

00:29:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bobby Clamp And obviously, you know, one of the most prolific, one of the most talented amateur players ever. You represented countless top players, I mean, you know, from Tiger to Norman to Curtis Strange. The book details many of your relationships with players. I'm I'm curious when you think back and think about all the great players that you manage, if there's a common thread, a common personality aspect of the great golfer. Is there is there something that you can distill down or is it? Are they all all like completely unique?

00:30:02
Speaker 3: They're all unique lots of different ways, but at that level of greatness, Andy, they share some characteristics almost without fail talent to begin with, you know, Curtis, Bobby, Greg Tiger could play the game, could strike the ball, could get it in the hole in a way that was superior to their competitors, fellow competitors. And of course those competitors were also very very good just to have gotten on the pro tour, but there was also willingness to work and practice and get better even though they were already great. And there's a great quality they all shared a curiosity of Greg learning in Europe when he was young and hadn't come to America yet, playing practice rounds, he met seb Bi Asterios. They struck up a great friendship. They were the same age, both similar personalities, and Greg would play as often as he could practice rounds with Seve to learn short game shots because Seve was the genius and the master. In the same way, Bobby's very curious anything that he could do to get better. Curtis the same, you know, Tiger the same with all the different coaches that he's gone through. The relentless and endless pursuit of perfection, I guess which none of them ever get to actually. But and also there's the love of the game. I'm a great believer. Forget golf, forget the agent ing business, just in general. I firmly believe that you never become super successful at something unless you love what you're doing. And so many people and I was blessed in that respect. I loved every minute of working with and representing and managing the careers of these guys. So many people in this world go through life hating their job, and it's really hard to find something that. Put another way, I guess it's an old saying, if you find something that you love to do, it will never seem like work.

00:32:12
Speaker 1: I completely agree with that. Uh it's uh, you know, I've worked. I've never worked harder in my life than with what I do now because I love doing it, you know, and it doesn't feel like work, and it's an amazing thing. I think like something that that dovetails really well off of what you just said, is like something I've always thought about. You know, DJ Dustin Johnson for years got this rap of oh he's an idiot, Oh he doesn't work hard, And I've always thought is like, you don't get to number one in the world if you don't work hard. And you know, if you you don't get to number one in the world if you're not like a golf savant. And recently I played golf with somebody that k for him, and they're like, he's got one of the best golf minds I've ever ever ever seen, Like, you know, the way he thinks through shots, that the ability to hit shots, the wave can just you know, formulate golf in his head is extremely high level. And it's like, you don't get to number one in the world without that curiosity, without that hard work ethic that you you illustrate with these players, that that curiosity. I think it is so true. The best players in the world just they they think about golf a little bit differently than than than random Joe Schmos.

00:33:26
Speaker 3: And back for a second to Bobby Klampett before we before we leave that subject, there were two really important markers in my early career and he worth noting, and they're discussed in the book at length. IMG had sort of lost the plot after signing Palmer Player and Nicholas Why because Mark decided rather than just do that for the rest of his life, he was curious. We talked about curiosity. Mark was curious, I've helped professional golfers in a way they never imagined. Could I do the same for tennis players? Could I do the same for team sport athletes? And he started expanding the company, and in doing so in the early to mid seventies, he kind of took his eye off the ball, and all of a sudden, stars like Vino, Johnny Miller, Lanny Watkins were coming along and had all signed with rival agents. So Lo and Behold, the founder and father of sports management sends yours truly, who at that stage could barely read a contract, let alone spell the word out on tour to kind of resuscitate IMG. And two of the most important three actually I'll bring her into it as well, three extremely important signings. You know, the book focuses so much and rightly. So on Greg Norman, we have two chapters on Greg, we have two chapters on Tiger. But the three stars that kind of put a stake in the ground that IMG was back in terms of representing top stars again after this sort of fallow period, were in order. Curtis Strange, who I recruited and signed in nineteen seventy six, Bobby Clampett in nineteen eighty, and both were the pre eminent superstar collegiate and amateur players of the time. They were Tiger, they were Phil Mickelson when they came out Okay, and then also in nineteen seventy six Nancy Lopez, and that launched us into the LPGA tour and the whole growth of that tour that Nancy really propelled and made possible. Those were all big deals. And I just mentioned those because it's The book is for sure Norman and Tiger centric with good reason, but there's really some compelling other stories in there, namely those three.

00:35:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wanted to take a step back obviously the book. The book details your life as a golf agent, and you know, you worked at IMG and you worked for Mark McCormick, started as an executive assistant for Mark McCormick, who is one of the most you know, influential figures in golf history. Could you give us an idea for people that are unaware of what I amg is, what IMG does, and who Mark McCormick is. You know, what is IMG and and what did they become in golf and who is Mark McCormick and why should why should golf fans know more about him?

00:36:27
Speaker 3: Yeah? For sure, And today's fan really isn't aware of the history of IMG and the powerhouse that it became and what it became to the whole field of sports management and marketing, because everybody today if we had ten thousand too many agents in football and baseball and basketball and tennis and golf and everything else cricket, Premier League, soccer back then, you know, Mark kind of was breaking new ground. Nobody had ever done this before. And parenthetically, that's one of the threads in the book Andy that from Money makes it so interesting. Besides just my story, there's a lot about the behind the scenes work of a sports agent, specifically a golf agent, for sure, but we also weave into it because it started when I kind of joined IMG. How IMG went from in those days one hundred employees around the world nineteen seventy two when I walked in the door to thousands of employees and dominance in almost every field of sports management and sports marketing. So that kind of sidebar narrative is going on, along with my story as an agent. And then the third aspect, which you've noticed, I know from reading the advanced copy of the book, is we chronicled the growth of pro golf, which, quite frankly, in nineteen seventy two when I started, was a mom and pop operation. It really was compared to this billion dollar behemoth that it's now become. And the war between the PGA Tour and the Saudi deep pockets and everything going on. It is such a change, and a twenty five or thirty year old, thirty five year old golf fan today doesn't remember any of that, nor should they, they didn't live through it. But it's really interesting if you like golf, if you play golf, to get a little bit of history of how the tour started. The enormous impact of Dean Beeman, you know that's almost been forgotten. We talked at great length about the stuff that he was able to achieve to grow professional golf in this country. And then also McCormick, who you know, was a unique, driven genius that his entire life was a couple of steps ahead of everybody on everything. And the perfect example of that, which we can get to whenever you're ready, is Mark McCormick, not Greg Norman, not the Saudis Mark McCormick in nineteen sixty four invented the tour, not the name, but the concept. Mark came up with it forty years thirty years before anybody else that had even envisioned it. Perfect example of how his mind worked.

00:39:17
Speaker 1: All right, let's take a quick break. As I alluded to earlier, I just got back from Northern Ireland. It was an amazing trip. I would say. The thing about the trip that I was most taken aback by was how much time I wanted to spend doing other things in golf. It is the Causeway coast up on in Northern Ireland's like one of the most beautiful places I've been. It's one of the most beautiful drives. You have things like giants giants Causeway, you have the rope bridge up there, and then on top of that you have like the Dunlouce Castle. It's just an amazing time place to spend some time. The beaches are beautiful and then you've got the top notch golf. So if you are looking to plan a trip to Northern Ireland or any part of Ireland, the best place to get started planning is to go to Ireland dot com slash golf. That's Ireland dot com slash golf. Amazing trip, trip of a lifetime. I won't forget anytime soon. And uh, it's really easy to get there and get uh and do a trip of your own. Now let's get back to Hughes Norton. Yeah. So Mark McCormick, I mean he was the he was the agent of of at the same time, Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicholas and Gary Player. You know, if you think about that in today's like the realm of today being the agent of John rom Scottie Scheffler and Rory McElroy or you know, a couple of players that be you know, unbelievable. So you know, at the time and in those players aren't even to the you know, realm of of of Palmer, Nicholas and players. On top of that, you know we'll get to this live of the idea of the World Tour. McCormick also was the person that came up with really the framework for what became the official World Golf rankings. They were the McCormick rankings. You know, he had this so beyond trailblazing, this the world of golf business and representation and pushing the sport forward from a business standpoint, he also had a lot of big ideas that helped shape golf in the future of golf. Even in the case of this World Tour idea, when did that start and what did it? Where did it come from? When his idea around this world world kind of small field tour.

00:41:46
Speaker 3: He wrote a fabulous book which I think is actually out of print these days, understandably so came out in nineteen sixty seven thereabouts called Arnie Evolution of a Legend, and it traces his relationship with our from the Golden handshake, which, by the way, is the only confirmation of their relationship and agreement they ever had. They never signed a document. Arnold said, we don't need it. My handshake's good, which shows you again how far things have changed, how much over the years. But Mark in his book and we have a sidebar in our book Grandmaker quoting this because it's so interesting. Rights I determined and the background of this andy was a war going on in those days between the PGA of America, which had always controlled professional golf, and the players that were playing the PGA Tour. It wasn't even called that in those days, but the two sides felt that their interests were not aligning, and they kind of went to war, and almost the players almost threatened to boycott. So in the midst of this, Mark wrights I came to the conclusion that perhaps the best thing that could happen to professional golf was to form a smaller tour with just the top players. He said he had dug into it and secretly behind the scenes found network, television, sponsorship, hotels, airlines all ready to consolidate and sponsor this small tour ramific. The requirements of the network and sponsors were this, Arnold, Gary and Jack, and then you can get any other twenty seven players that you want. We'll have a thirty play player tour. There'll be fewer events, which the players like. They'll be increased prize money much more than they were playing for in those days. There'll be benefits, health insurance, pension equity participation, stuff that was unheard of in those days. And it was set and ready to go. As Mark said, the money was done the table, and the guy that stopped it, as he would do thirty years later with Greg Norman's World Tour, is Arnold Palmer. Arnold said, guys, it's going to destroy the tour. All the rest of the player that don't make it, they're going to have nowhere to play. Professional golf is going to die when we do this World Tour. But it's it's the reason I bring this up. It's so typical of Mark. It's so creative, so intelligent. This was a lawyer, you know, This is a guy that really never practiced lawyd did for a little while in Cleveland, and then his mind was just three steps ahead of everybody else. And the world rankings you mentioned again, he's been accused Dean Beeman was one of the guys that accused him of creating the world rankings for profits, so that so that Mark could, you know, get all of his players ranked at the top and therefore get them more opportunities. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mark did a lot of things out of self interest, to be sure, but that wasn't one of them. He knew that tennis had a ranking system and he just but golf needs this, you know, people like these things. They like to see who's ranked and who's in the top ten and why and have a point system and stuff. And it never was very profitable for us. We did get Sony to sponsor it when we first brought it out, but it was widely criticized by everybody, as were a lot of things IMG did in those days. But Mark was completely unique, amazing guy.

00:45:27
Speaker 1: I mean, the world golf rankings at the time were you know, something that revolutionized really the way you talk about the best golfers in the world. Well, he'spent Like you think about it now. You know, the rankings I think came out in the late in the mid eighties were the first rankings and you look back and now it's like you talk about it's like when you talk about Greg Norman, you talk about the number of weeks that at the number one in the world. It's one of the first things you talk about with tiger Woods, and it's just a way to contextualize everything you know. Sadly, right now, I think the world Golf rankings are in probably the worst place that they've been since the the you know, early editions of the World rankings when you know, when it was still labeled maybe McCormick's World rankings. Going back to the world Tour idea, I you know, I found it really interesting. I didn't know really that backstory. You know, you always hear today that, especially with Live and what's happened in the in the last four years in the golf world. Oh, Norman always had this vendetta in you know, and that came about in the nineties of oh, I should do this. How did Norman, uh, you know, really become obsessed with this world tour idea and in you know, which was McCormick's idea. What what was you know, what was the genesis of him understanding this, this idea that McCormick had in in the seventies.

00:46:58
Speaker 3: The genesis was me telling me, telling Greg about it in great detail over the years, you know, I represented him for eleven years. We traveled all over the world together, spent a lot of time together. Greg was always a world view player. You know, American players are accused frequently with reason with validity of being, you know, America centric and not understanding the whole world of global golf that's out there. Greg on the other hand, started in Australia, played there, moved to Asia, played there, moved to Europe, played there, and then made his way to America. So naturally he had a much broader, more global perspective about golf. Was happy to fly anywhere to play, loved it so over the years, just in casual conversation on a plane together having a beer, I'd say, you know, did I ever tell you about this idea McCormick had. He said, hell, tell me, and he was fascinated by it, as he should be. It was brilliant because Mark had thought the whole thing through as I described, with all the benefits and smaller number of events and more prize money and all that stuff. So lo and behold. Greg left IMG fired me in nineteen ninety three, and a year later I am amazed to pick up the paper and see him saying, I had this unbelievable idea. This is how an entrepreneur thinks. This is really being on the cutting edge of business. Here, it is my idea will tour. I thought, really, it'd be nice to give Mark a little footnote there somewhere. And as I mentioned before, when Arnold shot it down the second time, that took place out at Thousand Oaks, California, in a tournament that I developed for Greg. We developed together actually called the Shark Shootout, and Greg was introducing his new World Tour idea to this elite field at the Shark Shootout in nineteen ninety four, the very players that he was hoping would be interested in signing up for it, And Arnold was playing in the Sharp Shootout field that year. He wasn't the lead anymore, but he was certainly somebody that Greg wanted in the tournament of years. So Arnold was there and Arnold got wind of this idea that Greg was about to present and stood up in the players meeting after all of the pitch had been made by Greg and said, look, I don't care what the rest of you guys do, but I'm out. This is gonna he said, Greg, do you realize the number of times Jack and Gary and I were approached with ideas like this to leave the tour and go out on our own, And you know what, we'd have profited immensely by it. But it wasn't fair to the rest of the players. Whatever you guys in this room want to do is go ahead, but I'm out. And Arnold stood up and walked out of the room. Well, his influence, even in the nineties was so pervasive still, he was so respected and admired, adored really by the other players. That that was the death knell and Greg kind of never got over that. He blamed Arnold, He blamed the p G A tour. You know, he carried a grudge for years and then again didn't really developed the Saudi interest as I understand it. I've been out of the business obviously for a long time. But the Saudi's got pitched on a Premier league type Premier League soccer type deal a by a sports agency in Britain, which was this Doud he Lived tour, and the Saudi's looking for somebody who would stand up and fight the PGA tour. They found their perfect man in Greg who'd harbored disgrudge for years and sort of the rest is history.

00:50:38
Speaker 1: As you hit on earlier, there's a couple chapters. And obviously managing Greg Norman was a was a huge part of your life. You were on like the ride of Norman becoming golf's really formative star at the time, you know, and you were behind a lot of the deals that that came about during that What was what was the experience of managing Greg Norman? What was unique about him as a player compared to the number of other superstars that you manage.

00:51:11
Speaker 3: He was kind of larger than life and and and just a fun, fun loving, you know, swashbuckling, attractive persona lived life to the fullest, had a great sense of humor. He you know, whatever it is, Andy it's People always say, what is it that you know makes somebody marketable? There's it's it and it is different with each guy. You can do it with unbelievable achievements like Jack Nicholas did in his day at the beginning, with virtually no personality. I mean Jack was fat and really not very attractive in those days. Or you can you can be or become it through your marketability. Are you attractive, are you charismatic? You know, talent has to go with it, obviously, but Greg would the epitome of the latter and the Australian accent and the blonde hair and all that. You know, it all, it all was part of the part of the appeal, and he was just you know, he loved golf, I think deep down, and I talk about in the book maybe psychologically, because his achievements on the golf course never lived up to his potential, you know, those tragic losses in the Three Majors in nineteen eighty six after leading all four after fifty four holes. But the trappings of success, if you will, really was close to Greg's heart. The seven Ferraris in the garage, the ocean going yacht, the multiple houses, all the good stuff, you know, the private jets. That was really kind of right up Greg's alley. And just in contrast, there's many others we could talk about, but Tiger, and we bring this out in the book. It makes the two of them so fascinating. Tiger was one eighty the other way. What do I mean by that? For Tiger, the outside stuff, the generational wealth that I created on day one of his professional career, was incidental. It was actually an intrusion into Tiger's life. Why because all he wanted to do, all he lived for, was practicing, competing, beating everybody's ass. And a couple of months into his pro career, working out and becoming as strong and fit and prepared and better than anybody else ever. And the photo appearances, the photo shoots, the sales, meeting appearances, the stuff that is obligatory from companies who pay you. The kind of millions that I was able to get for Tiger just pissed him off. I mean it was he didn't want any part of it. For Greg, how would rather do five days than ten of that stuff? But got into it every time and kind of enjoyed it. So different. Not that Greg wasn't competitive, not that he didn't love to play and beat people, for sure he did. But the contrast is dramatic, and we talk about that in the book. It's interesting.

00:54:21
Speaker 1: It is a fascinating aspect of the book. One of the things that I found really interesting from both the agent side the player side. I mean, as you illustrated just there, like it seemed like Norman kind of basked in how much money he made off the course, and it was something that he liked to kind of like puff his chest out, whereas Tiger it was a nuisance as an agent. It also seems like it was a very difficult line to navigate of how much am I maximizing the off the course stuff versus making sure that they are still performing at the level that is bringing all this outside stuff over the course of your career. What were the things that you kind of learned and the tough aspects of this balance of your job.

00:55:09
Speaker 3: It's an issue for everybody and everybody's life, you know, no matter what field of endeavor, you're in the balance. In my case, I did it very poorly, and McCormick did as well. You've got your work and you have your family, and whenever I would do a trip that was one day, two days, three days, less that I was spending with my life and children, and vice versa. The more time on your family, the less that you are devoting to your craft or your job. And successful people figure it out. I was pretty successful, but I never figured it out. It's balanced. It's almost impossible. Golfers the same Tom Watson, Ben Crenshaw to a certain extent, were players that never really participated in the outside stuff. They did, but almost reluctantly, it seemed, never maximized. Certainly in Watson's case, his achievements, his charisma, his popularity. Now guess what Tom won, I forget nine majors. So that was fine. I mean, he had that balance figured out. On the other hand, every player that I ever represented goes through a even if it's subconscious. Okay, Hugh's got me this great contract with XYZ. Now I got to go through two days of photo shoot. My calendar says I'm off this week. I should be practicing. I should be getting ready for the three or four weeks in a row that I'm about to play. I'm not getting that time in that I need because I'm lining my pockets, if you will, with some endorsement money. On the other hand, you don't want to do none. Golf is a very it's a fine line and you've seen it. We've all seen it. Players like he and Baker Fence top of the world, just lost their game, Hubert Green saying, you know, it can be gone on a heartbeat. And the one that we really focus on in the book is Bill Rogers, who, as you know, had that year in nineteen eighty one. It's so underrated and undervalued, never talked about. It's one of the greatest years in the history of professional golf. Bill won seven times around the world, the Australian Open, the British Open, Harbor Town, the Texas Opened World Series of Golf, and Akron the sun Tory Open in Japan. He was so far and away the best player in the world, and what did he do. He had a choice. He'd had up to that point a reasonably good career, but nothing of this ilk Okay, So now we sat and talked about it. Bill, You've got once in a lifetime chance to really capitalize on this, with appearances around the world, with a parents' money, with endorsement contracts. He said, Let's go for it. And maybe in the back of Bill's mind, I never knew for sure, you know what, this doesn't last forever. I have no guarantee that I'm going to have another nineteen eighty one, in eighty two, three, four, five, six, and so on. And guess what, it didn't. He kind of lost his game a couple of years later, and really kind of lost his desire to play and his love of golf. So if I'm addressing that, there's always that balance. Bill knew what he was getting in for, and I was accused after the fact, and perhaps rightly, of pushing too hard for him to do off course stuff. I never did because we don't have power of attorney any I can't make pure a client of mine. I can't make you go anywhere. You've got to sign and agree to do it. But that issue throughout my life, my client's lives, and we talk about it in the book. It's a fascinating issue. I'm not sure anybody really gets it right totally. But you have to kind of straddle that line and have one foot in each camp to really make your life better.

00:59:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't think anybody's figuring it out more now. I remember a few years ago it came out that Ricky Fowler spent something I think it was thirty days doing camera, doing commercial shoots. And you're like, thirty days a month, a month of one of the best golf golfers lives is devoted to, you know, doing commercial shoots that can't possibly be good for your golf game, you know, And it's but.

00:59:26
Speaker 3: Here's the here's the thing, here's the thing. In Ricky's case, he was never i think it's fair to say, really truly major championship caliber. So guess who's the happiest guy in the world. As he looks back on his career. Ricky Fowler he's got millions and millions and millions of dollars in the bank, and maybe that doesn't Maybe if he hadn't done that, he still would have had the same career that he had and not better. There's no guarantee either way. It's it's a tricky it's it's no answer to it. Really.

00:59:58
Speaker 1: So something that's come up in and the lore of social media is this picture of Seve by bya Sero's with a double swoosh Nike hat, double double logoed Nike hat. It litters social media all the time, and you you occasionally did some small deals for Seve Bias Sero's. How did this hat come about?

01:00:24
Speaker 3: Well, Seve was a charismatic and kind of a I think it was virtually paranoid guy. And Zero's thanks to a his first agent, who he felt rightly or wrongly burned him on some deals. The relationship fell apart Seve fired him. Why didn't IMG represent him Because in the early seventies, when when Seve developed in Spain as a young kid, Mark was was busy growing IMG in other areas and had kind of taken his eye off the ball, just like we didn't get Johnny Miller or Trevino in those days. So Seve then became managed by some hometown people, his little hometown of Padrana in Spain, and including his brother Manuel, who used to play the tour, and so Seve was kind of anybody that brings me a deal, fine, but I'm not going to sign with anybody again. So I knew him. I got friendly with him because Greg and he were close, and he wasn't playing as much in the States in those days. But so I would go to Seve occasionally and say, look, here's an idea. Would you like to do this? And he'd say, talk to my brother or whatever. One of the ideas I came up with, which is a shame that never happened, was Seve across South America. He'd never been to the continent. They all speak Spanish except for Portuguese in Brazil, and he would have been We could have. We were halfway to putting together one of the great exhibition tours of all time. I said, Sevi, give me a week, you'll have the time of your life. There'll be massive crowds in every country. It didn't work. That was typical se say, oh yaale ge't do that. Huge, huge, Yeah, no numble for me. Such a funny guy. So I then came up with I was talking to Nike in those days. It was pre Tiger for sure, but it was mid eighties and Curtis Strange and Peter Jacobson both clients of mine. I developed small deals for them with Nike golf shoes that they were just developing. So I went to Nike and said, look, if you guys are ready to jump into golf full time, Ballasteros is as good as you'll find, especially in a global sense, because Nike was global, why don't we do something to introduce the deal. Let's do a one off at the master's. Okay, here's what are you talking about? I said, Savvy will wear advisor. He doesn't wear a hat with the Nike swoosh on it. You pay him twenty five thousand dollars, which you know people don't get out of bed for today, But that was a big deal in the mid nineteen eighties for a week. And so lo and behold, I'm at augusta Monday, and Sevi says, who were the visors? I said, I don't have him yet, just hang on. And then the next day and then Finally on Wednesday, they arrive overnight or with him and the visors are as you've alluded to, the strangest things you've ever seen. The Nike swoosh, of course, was already well known. The check mark the visor had double swoosh. What do I mean by that? It was a swoosh and underneath it another swoosh. And I called Nike, I said seriously, and they said, yeah, yeah, we think this is really cool, and there's such marketing geniuses. I thought, Okay, what do I know, Let's give it a shot. And Sevy was a little skeptical, but so he wears the divisorsday Friday Saturday and h was in contention right until the end. And on Sunday the Famous on fifteen, he's either tied for the leader, maybe he was a shot ahead, and he hits it in the water on fifteen trying to go for the green and so he loses the Masters. And I try to follow up with both Nike and Sebby and Heabby wants no part of it. That damn visor made me hit the ball in the water. Now superstars tend to do that. I think it's actually healthy sometimes to blame their misfortunes or errors, shall we say, on others And that was fine. I'm not sure Nike was really ready to do anything global anyway at that point, but it's such an amazing story. And people I tell him the story like friends sometimes and they say no way. I say, look it up. Just google the nineteen eighty six Masters or eighty five I think it was, and they come back and say, holy shit. Yeah, there's two visors. I mean two on the.

01:04:33
Speaker 1: It's a big hit with like I feel like millennials and generation disease. Is that photo of Sevy and the double swoosh visor. So let's talk a little bit about Tiger. How was Earlwood's as the as a talent scout and how did he become a talent scout?

01:04:52
Speaker 3: Well, yours truly came up with the brilliant idea when we were courting Tiger. And I say courting, It wasn't even re I mean he was still, you know, sixteen or seventeen years old. I'd had the relationship with the family and with Tiger since he was twelve and very casual, very informal. And I was driving home from work one day and I thought, you know, we've got a hard enough time at IMG scouting college kids. We've got nobody out on that circuit junior golfers. You know, that's even worse. We had no presence whatsoever. Earl Woods is playing twenty junior events, fly around the country with Tiger, who would be better to evaluate and assess future talents. And in fact, I had no idea if he'd be any good at it, but I knew that he would be out there, so that would be a great pair of eyes for us. And it was kind of a People have called it a brilliant move, but basically we had to be very wary. Andy of the USGA regulations you can't and NCAA regulations, So Tiger in college yet you cannot compensate an individual player or his family in any way, shape or form, you know, otherwise his amateur status is jeopardized. We'll contrast that to this day and age with the name, image and likeness stuff going on in college. Kids are making millions of dollars to go to college somewhere else. So and I explained the idea to market was classic Mark. You know, he was always willing to accept sort of off the wall proposals or suggestions from people like me that work for him. And he said that's pretty good, and he took it to Sandy and Lo and behold, the USJ said, look, that's fine. You can pay Earl Woods a salary and expenses whatever you choose to be your junior talent Scott Scout, so long as there is absolutely no quid pro quote like you can't say, Earl, we're doing this so that your kid will sign with Hughes and Imchi when he turns pro. And we didn't have that anyway. So I was fine with that, long story short, Earle. I loved Earl in so many ways, just a funny, phenomenal guy to be around. He always cracked me up, but I enjoyed him as a person and respected and admired, you know, his career and what he'd been through in his life, the military stuff and everything else. And so Earle would submit these these long hand reports on yellow pads, legal size length, and he'd send them to me and I'd read him, and every single one would say, Okay, Kelly, Keeney, boy, what a great family golf family. This kid can really play. She's a can't miss. I think, wow, fow that one away in the next page, here's this kid is this future start? Pretty soon everybody that he was scouting was and we had a great laugh about it. After Todd has turned through, I said, Earl, I tell you something. He said, sure, I said, you are absolutely the worst talent scout I've ever met in my entire life. And that's uh.

01:08:03
Speaker 1: I love that he wrote out the reports on a yellow legal pad. Just that image of of the of the the reports that I could. I can envision him my right now is like you know, writing out.

01:08:15
Speaker 3: I still have him in a drawer somewhere. I pull him out everyone. So it still makes me smile.

01:08:21
Speaker 1: Another thing that you set up before Tiger term professional was a meeting of a golf match. I don't know if you called a golf match between at the time the world's best player in the world and who would become the greatest player ever, so Greg Norman and Tiger Woods. And this is detailed in the book Play at Old Marsh. What did I would can you take us inside what each of them said to you as you were representing Greg Norman? You were, you know, kind of in the process of representing Tiger. What did each of them say to you about the other at that time, and what were their takeaways?

01:09:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was nothing that I you know, uh uh, you know, planned or scheme to put together. It just worked out. At one point, Tiger was in Florida playing a junior event of some sort, and of course Greg was in Florida. He was home that week from playing the tour. He was taking a week off. So I called Greg and I said, look, would you you I think you'll enjoy this too, because this kid's pretty talented. Would you play around of golf or play nine holes with Tiger? And he'd love to meet you, And I think you'll be pretty impressed by what you see. And of course Greg, being the kind of guy, he said, sure, I'd love to do it. So they met. And now remember Tiger and this goes back we talk about it in the book. In his room when I met him as a twelve year old, were not rock stars or pent up girls on the on the walls of his room he had posters of Norman Nicholas and and all. You know, it was pretty clear at the age of eleven or twelve where Tiger's mind was. He was going to be the next great player. So as a result, he was always curious and jumped at the chance to play with Greg and actually see first hand, first person, what the number one player in the world look like. These are be his own talents. It's a great sort of you know, bar of Tiger. Until he was all in for this, Greg not so much, just kind of like a favor. So I didn't hear from me the one, so I guess it wasn't that big a deal. So I called them and said not that. I expected Greg to call me and say this, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen. But Greg's I.

01:10:39
Speaker 1: Don't think you'd ever admit that if he thought that KINGO.

01:10:44
Speaker 3: So Greg said, yeah, I said, this kid, he's pretty good for sure. What you told me was I said, well, what anything particular impressed you? And he said, he just hits the ship out of it, got fast through the ball. It's a long way great Tiger. Tiger, tell me the world's number one. Impress you, he said, Eh said, he had a lot of cool short game shots. I loved some of the stuff he did around the greens. So a big deal. So for Greg, you know, here's another can't miss that probably is going to miss. I'm just making this up. But and Tiger was like, wow, you know what, I can play ted at Green with this guy. But I got a shark on my shortgam Now. Greg had learned so many cool short game stuff from Sebbi and that was great for Tiger to see. And who knows what that I wish what do you think a video of that would would would would get us now if we could put it on cable and do a documentary, that would have been really fun. But they each had different responses reflecting their personalities.

01:11:46
Speaker 1: Actually, was there anything about Norman that you would have guess that this that he was? It would have made while your represent him made him a perfect, you know, person to go after the PG tour with living.

01:12:02
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, he always held grudges in his life. The psychologists in the world have speculated a lot of that went back to his relationship with his dad. For people that don't know, Greg's father thought pro golf was a complete waste of time and Edward would not result in any kind of life or career for his son. And there's a moment actually, when Greg was seventeen, he and his dad go down to the recruiting station and they're sitting there with the papers to join the Australian Air Force right in front of him to sign, and his dad thought, this was the greatest thing ever, what a great career you can have. And Greg he said he just had a moment of come to Jesus or whatever. He pushed the paper away. He said I can't do that. And his father was furious and they walked out of the station and his father they went home and Greg said, look, Dad, I want to be a golfer. That's what I want to do. And his father said, in so many words, if you do that, son, I'm not going to ever speak to you again. That's powerful. And for decades thereafter, yes, his father spoke to him, but Greg's relationship with his mother Tony was very strong and never with his dad again virtually. I think when his dad I was gone by them, but I think when his father finally passed, Greg was there at the end and they sort of made amends as best they could. But back to Greg, he would people that wronged him in his estimation, he would turn against There were some caddies along the way, there were some business things along the way, and when somebody kind of crossed him, he would always say, hey, that's it that I'm done with that guy. So there was that element for sure. He was a guy that you so believed in himself. He didn't really give credit where it was due to others. In the book, we talk about there's a kind of a benchmark, Andy, where if I'm representing you and you make one hundred thousand dollars on the tour, and I can generate that same amount off in other words, a one to one relationship, we're doing a heck of a job because even after you pay me the twenty percent, you're eighty thousand dollars ahead. Greg, like Tiger was in the stratosphere. In ten years representing Greg, I AMG. Greg made ten million dollars in prize money. You know today Scatty Sheffler makes that in three weeks, right, But in those days, ten million dollars. All throughout the decade of the eighties, I AMG me together made Greg fifty million dollars. So Greg leaves us, and one of the first things I see in the paper he said, you know, I am G. Yeah, they made me some money, but they weren't really interested in developing my brand. And his famous quote that really riled me was. I was such a big deal in those days. Even Joe Soap could have made me lots of money. So around the office I was known as Joe Soap for the next couple of months. But there's that element for sure, I guess to answer your question, is it is it out of sync or not fitting that Greg became the voice, the image, the front man for Live Not at all. He's the perfect vehicle. Who was you know, bound and determined to settle grudges and be the front man for something that so many other players wanted no part of?

01:15:35
Speaker 1: What would you? You know, you've been out of being you haven't been an agent for years, but I know you keep in contact with the world. How do you think you would have handled Live have it? If you were if we had transported your book of players from nineteen let's just say nineteen eighty four, uh to you know the you know present and this was the state of golf and Live comes, how do you think you would have handled it as an agent?

01:16:03
Speaker 3: Well, let me tell you this. The way that I am told the agent player thing worked out. With these one hundred million dollar offers to live players, I'd be a lot richer for sure. The word is that the Saudis. You talk about being smart. Maybe this was greg that when Phil M. Michelson got his you know, we're talking numbers that we're not sure one hundred and fifty million, Dustin Johnson got his one hundred million, Kopka got his seventy five million. In addition to those payments, the Savadis paid the agent speed, so there would never be a reluctance on a Wait a second, I'm Dustin Johnson, Andy, he didne a good job for me, but really, you're going to take twenty percent of my one hundred million Saudi's circumvented that paid the agents. So that's pretty cool, But how would I have handled it? You know, ret hindsight, it's perfect Andy, But I think we all know the worst thing that ever happened was Jay Monaghan when the Saudis first approached wanting to invest in the tour, saying, go to hell. You know, there's an old saying in the in the journalistic profession, never get in a war with somebody who buys ink by the barrel. Nobody under forty will understand that. Don't bring anymore. But in the same way seems to me when somebody comes in with an investment fund of seven hundred billion with a B dollars and what is interested in investing in your product? I don't think you want to piss them off? Now. Could Monahan have foreseen that they would go do this separate tour? Maybe not, But how would I have to me? And it's I feel this way now. The only way is settlement. I don't care what they have to do. You know, they're talking about a pretty creative thing. You know. One of the big stumbling blocks here is how do we bring you know, the the d Chambeau's and cam Smith's and Roum's and Dustin's and Brooks back to the tour without some sort of penalty or some sort of suspension. Well, now that players are getting equity from this consortium of people that the tours cooked up, it's easy. These guys will never get equity, but they're welcome back. Bottom line, you have to settle. We saw this in tennis at IMG For years and years there were wars between the players and the players' union and the federations, and as a result, guess what happened. The only time all the best players in tennis were together was at the four majors, Wimbledon, US Open, French Open, Australian Open. That's where we're getting now. You know, in the Masters two weeks from now, thirteen lived players are in the field. But those guys will never be in the same field with PGA Tour stars except there and of course less. So you refer to it now that they don't get world ranking points, they may disappear from the majors. The whole thing is a disaster, you know, Forget who's at fault, forget who did what right and wrong. Got to bring this back together, You got to settle otherwise. You know, the last three weeks of the PGA Tour, have you seen the leaderboards? Forget the players, you know, La and the turn These friends and I Chris Mohabb, a great friend of yours and mine, we're on this text chain and Saturday morning we go back and forth on the PGA Tour leader But who the hell are these guys? There's eight names on there that nobody knows. They're all great players, they're all up and coming stars. But got to be careful here, you know, fans are going to lose interest. What are fans like? They like names, they like stars. They like the people that they're used to seeing, and they're and they're kind of gone.

01:19:41
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, the Players was an incredible, incredible golf tournament this weekend. It was it was an amazing golf tournament, amazing finish and you had you know, big names in the field. But you know, the the whole identity of that event is that it's the strongest field in golf. And it you know, that event at its core has been completely shook from this divide because you have, you know, whatever number you want to say of the live players, there's ten to fifteen guys that would absolutely make that field way better, you know, and they aren't in there. And it's like, is this the strongest field in golf? I have a hard time not saying that one of the four majors is the strong isn't the strongest field in golf? If if the Players is missingen the ten to fifteen relevant live players, and.

01:20:34
Speaker 3: Rory alluded to this, you know, for my money, By the way, he's the most thoughtful appealing guy, not just on the golf course. I love when he's interviewed he says what he thinks of me. He said it the players, You know. Maybe it was in in response to a question, do you feel like if you win this week it's it's kind of like with an asterisk, He said, no question. He said, we the top players in this game live to play against each other. Pardon the expression live. You know, that's what we want to that's what we want to do, and these guys aren't here this week.

01:21:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I agree. I think he's you know, people will say flip flops on the subject. He obviously was strong. I think he's just been realistic about the chance. When it was a war, he had his side, and when when there is when it's clear that the resolution has to be come together, he's been vehemently for coming together. I think that is just understanding the dynamics of what's going on.

01:21:33
Speaker 3: And the mark of an intelligent guy. I think we'd agree on this is the willingness and ability to change your mind. And he changed his mind. He was foremost against lib and now he said, look, whatever's happened, we gotta we got to fix this all right.

01:21:47
Speaker 1: So your book, it's it's going to be out for people to buy when when we're when we're airing this podcast. Last question, what's your favorite story anecdote that didn't make it into the book.

01:22:02
Speaker 3: Shamelessly. I want everybody to see, you know, one of the great things about this and my daughter was the first to pick up on it when we were going through the mock covers. It's a really cool cover. It is. It's very appealing and if you can't see the detail, there's one hundred dollars bill wrapped around the tee, which sort of a sort of epitomizes what we were just talking about. There's so many great stories. One of my favorite, you couldn't find a way to work it into the book. Tom Weiscoff, rookie season hot head, unbelievable talent in his mind. His temper always got in the way, but he's a rookie. He comes into the locker room, he slams his locker shed, he throws his shoes down on the floor. He's bitching and moaning. Tommy Bolt, who no one will remember. You should google Tommy Bolt sometime. Terrible. Tommy had a temper of his own, very talented. When the US opened, Tommy Bolt, a veteran is observing this. He comes over and he sits down quietly next to Weyscoff on the bench in front of the locker and he says, son, let me tell you some about life out here. We Scott looks at him, both says, fifty percent of the guys in this locker room don't give a shit what you shot today, and the other fifty percent wish you'd shot one shot higher. Stop your moaning and groaning and get with it.

01:23:15
Speaker 1: It's great golf advice. I think that that is advice that could go out to numerous people at every club in America.

01:23:23
Speaker 3: And Greg had one. I meant, I meant to weave in. I was in the lock a couple of times. This is so so typical Greg. And this was in the in the years before he thought I was Joe Sop okay, so I appreciated what we were doing for him.

01:23:37
Speaker 1: This is when he was pounding his said, you know, pumping his chest out about you know, why is it everybody with im IMG?

01:23:45
Speaker 3: And yeah, exactly. He comes in the locker room and he's pain. Stewart was a guy. He always went back and forth with pain. Didn't like me, didn't like IMG. So he'd see pain across the locker room. Of course, thirty other guys are in there and he'd say in a loud boys, hey pain you with IMG. No, Greg, I guess you don't like money. Huh. Everybody in the locker room heard this crazy crazy stuff locker room stories alone. We should have had a bunch.

01:24:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, it could be the sequel, could be the next book.

01:24:15
Speaker 3: I've had enough months with George Pepper is enough. I can't. I can't do it anymore. One done? All right?

01:24:22
Speaker 1: Well, people can find your book anywhere you purchase your books Amazon, obviously local bookstores. Always support your local bookstores. I think it'll probably be in some from what I've what I've read, and big thank you for your time the stories. I feel like you could do one hundred of these and not touch on all the stories in in your in your illustrous career. Hughes, thank you so much and we'll have to have you on another time.

01:24:52
Speaker 3: Andy, A pleasure heard so much about the Friday podcast. It's it's at top of the charts for sure, and pleasure and a privilege to be on with you.

01:24:59
Speaker 1: Thanks all right, Thanks again to Hughes Norton. Check out his book if you're interested in more stories like we're talked about in that podcast. Joseph H. Do you have a recommendation. I do, Andy.

01:25:20
Speaker 2: I'm recommending that people follow Padrake Harrington on social media. I haven't quite dove down into the rabbit hole of his YouTube channel yet, but from Twitter, slash x, Instagram, he's been doing these swing tips and I think what he said is that he believes with his swing tips, anybody can get to a single digit handicap. He put out a video this past week on the grip. He also did a pretty amusing one emulating Scottie Scheffler's footwork. It's insightful, it's fun I think he's I'm not very knowledgeable about the golf swing, so I don't know if I can evaluate how knowledgeable Padrake Harrington is. But he seems really knowledgeable about the golf swing, and he's entertaining. I'm getting a lot out of it. I'd recommend people follow him on social media, maybe check out some of his videos on YouTube. He provides a lot of insight of the game, not just swing tips, but when he offers his thoughts on rollback a number of topics. I find him to be very interesting to listen to.

01:26:15
Speaker 1: Funny guy. He's uh, he's just he's a one on one character, So I always think following one on one characters are is worth it. My recommendation is uh. I I asked h for recommendations on books that kind of explain the history of Northern Ireland. Obviously it's a it's a country that's had you know, a lot of different you know, kind of like a long past, uh. And I was looking to learn more about it and I got like this, like overwhelming recommendations for one book. And I want to thank everybody that recommended this book. I thought it was amazing. I read it the last couple of weeks. It's called Say Nothing Uh. It is written by Patrick redd and Keith. I thought it was an amazing book. It was an amazing page if you're into history, if you're into like understanding aspects of world history that you know, I just I felt like I was really naive to what had happened. I thought this was like a terrific book at kind of like explaining the whole history of Northern Ireland's troubles. So I really enjoyed that book. I found myself just like it was a page turner. So recommend that Andy.

01:27:35
Speaker 2: How many books have you read this year? Because this might be a huge endorsement for that book based on how much you've alluded to reading. This might be what is this the first one that you finished this year?

01:27:45
Speaker 1: It was I well, I read he was Norton's book like right after it too. I'm not a big reading kick, to be completely honest. I got to look for my next book. I'm really enjoying actually, like you know, I just found I find myself always scrolling and I've been not scrolling, and I've been reading at night and I'm sleeping better and I'm enjoying, like you know, taking my mind where I wanted to go rather than being driven places I don't necessarily want to go by social media. So a little bit less social media this year for me, a little more reading. Wish I could say the same, all right, Joseph, big thank you. Thanks to Matt Ruschus for producing this podcast and editing. He did an awesome job. While using Northern Ireland. He was on a number of the Exploration podcasts, so check those out if you want to hear more from Matt and his thoughts on some of the courses. I guess that is a reminder just go check out Explorations, check out we're gonna be rolling out a bunch of stuff on the social media apps that I just you know, slammed and said spend less time on. But we had a bunch of videos that's going to be going up there. That podcast feed probably has an episode or two more left, and then we're gonna have a bunch of written stuff in the coming week. So if you guys want to learn more about Northern Ireland our trip up there, check out all that stuff. It's on the Friday dot com. It is also on our social media channels, and it is also on that Explorations podcast feed. But thanks, and we'll be back later this week with another episode.