Domenica Guillaume Walter and l'Affaire Lacaze

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy Biegelson and I'm Holly Frye. We have come around to yet another episode. Inspired by that trip I took to Philadelphia to see the Marie Lawrence Sont exhibit at the Barnes Foundation. One part of that exhibition focused on Marie Lawrence Son's portraits, and there were these brief biographical sketches of the people shown in those portraits, and one that caught my eye was of Dominica Guilme. She was married to Paul Guielme, who was a writer and an art dealer who developed a substantial collection of artwork, and, in the words of this brief biography quote, to ensure the collection remained in her possession in the event of Paul's death. Dominica needed an air after an unsuccessful feigned pregnancy. She adopted a child, also named Paul, who she abused and whose murder she plotted twice after her husband died in nineteen thirty four, which caused me to go, I'm sorry, what like, there's a lot to unpack there. There's a lot to unpack there and it's just, you know, two entire sentences mentioned in this brief biography. So that's been hanging out on my to do list since then, and here we are today. So Dominica Guillome was born Juliette Marie Leoni Lacaz on May nineteenth, eighteen ninety eight, in Avon, in southern France. There's really very little documentation about her early life, reportedly because she destroyed as much of it as possible. There is some suggestion that the family was financially comfortable but perhaps wound up losing their money. In other accounts, her father was a notary. She had a brother, Jean, who got a job working for Shell Oil, and she eventually went to Paris where she was an art model, and she also got a job working in the cloakroom at a nightclub. We know a little bit more about her first husband, Paul Guillome, who was born at November twenty eighth, eighteen ninety one. His father was a tax collector, and Paul seems to have wanted a more exciting life for himself than that from a very early age. He wound up getting a job at a garage, which does not sound all that flashy, but this was a garage that catered to wealthy clients and they imported their own rubber for making tires. These rubber shipments sometimes included some kind of African artwork or cultural object. One of them was a mask from Gabon that sparked Guillaume's interest in African art. So this isn't really what today's episode is about, so we're not going to go into a ton of detail. But people in Equatorial Africa were tapping rubber trees for their sap and refining it into a usable material long before European colonization. But in the nineteenth century, European efforts to extract increasing amounts of rubber from parts of Africa were both environmentally destructive and devastating from a human rights perspective. This connects to King Leopold of Belgium's personal rule of the Congo, which we talked about in our episode on George Washington Williams that came out on February nineteenth of this year. Europeans were also extracting artwork from Africa. These objects that Paul Gielm was seeing in rubber shipments were just a very few of the thousands of pieces that Europeans took from Africa, mainly starting in about the eighteen seventies. At the same time time, though a lot of Europeans did not really see these works as having much artistic worth or value. To a lot of people, they were more like trinkets or curiosities. Museums that held African works in their collections often had them in ethnography, not in their art collections. This is something that we also talked about in more detail in our episode on the Putative Expedition of eighteen ninety seven and the collection of artworks known as the Benin Bronzes. That episode came out in January of twenty twenty two. The European perception of these objects was starting to shift when Guillume was working at the garage. Artists like Pablo Picasso and Arima Tise saw African sculptures in places like the Trocadero Ethnographic Museum in Paris in the mid nineteen hundreds, and these more abstract geometric pieces became a huge influence on their work. Cubism, Fauvism, Primitivism, and other aesthetic movements were heavily influenced by African art, sometimes without the artists really knowing much about the context of the traditions that these sculptures had been made in. At the same time, these artistic movements were also controversial. While these more avant garde artists saw African works as a source of inspiration, the artistic establishment was initially hostile to them and their work. Paul Gillo lived in molmart and he became connected to a lot of the writers and artists who lived there, including Pablo Picasso and poet and playwright Guilloma Polonaire. Paulinaire was really influential to Paul Gium's understanding of modern art in Europe, introducing him to other artists and recommending that he buys specific people's works. By February of nineteen fourteen, Paul Gium had developed a large enough art collection to open a small gallery, one that was focused mainly on the work of living artists. He also became one of the first art dealers to sell the work of the Cubists. Sometimes on his own and sometimes advised by a Pollinaire, Paul Guilloum bought the works of then unknown artists, often paying almost nothing for them. This included buying paintings by Maurice U Trio from a cabaret owner. Eu Trio had given him artwork in exchange for meals. As Guillome started to build a reputation for himself, Picasso and a pollinaire went to him to try to launch the career of Giorgio de Quirico, who had moved to Paris from Italy. Guillome bought all of his newly created artwork on an ongoing basis for one hundred francs a month. This reminds me a lot of what Gertrude Stein and her brother were also doing, like buying up the works of people who had no, you know, artistic reputation yet who later became really famous and influential. In nineteen fourteen, Guilloume loaned eighteen African works of art to an exhibition that was called Statuary in Wood by African Savages, the Root of Modern Art. This kind of language was extremely common in descriptions of African art in the early twentieth century. This exhibition was arranged by American photographer Alfred Stieglitz and held at his gallery, and this was the first exhibition in New York to treat African sculpture as artwork in its own right. Gilm also started a magazine called Lezard da Peri, doing a lot of the writing himself under an assortment of different pen names. Gilm was in his early twenties at the start of World War One, but it doesn't appear that he served in the war. One of the sources that Tracy used for this episode said that he was exempted for medical reasons. By the time the war was over, he had become extremely famous and influential in the European art world. He held exhibitions of European and African art, including one that included both, highlighting the African influence on Cubism. He also became the principal dealer of artists like Andrei Duran And In nineteen twenty, when he was twenty eight, when she was twenty two, Paul Gio married Juliette la Caz. He's the one that gave her the nickname Dominica, reportedly because of her domineering personality, and while we really don't know much about her life before this point, it's clear that they had some things in common. They were both from pretty modest backgrounds, and they were largely self taught in terms of things like art and culture. They both wanted lives that were more colorful and exciting and affluent than the way they'd grown up, and after they got married they got to work doing that. They moved into a bigger, fancy or apartment. They hired a staff of chambermaids and a chef and a chauffeur. They socialized and through elegant parties and made lots of connections, and they both had various affairs for Dominica. One of the was with Andrea Durant, who painted a series of portraits of her. After they were married and after the end of World War One, Giem seems to have focused more and more on the practical and commercial aspects of being an art dealer, rather than seeking out and acquiring the work of undiscovered, groundbreaking artists. He also boosted the price by placing modern works of art in ornate seventeenth and eighteenth century frames. This drew some criticism from other art dealers, who saw it as artificially inflating the value of works that were not as artistically notable. That he was still building a collection and selling a lot of works that were really influential, but there were people that kind of thought he sold out. At this point. Paul Gilm's relationship with one of his most important clients also started around this same time. That was doctor Albert Barnes, founder of the Barnes Foundation. To bring this back full circle, Barnes was a chemist who made a fortune in pharmaceutical and developed an enormous art collection. Works that Barnes acquired through Guielm included more than one hundred African sculptures as well as Impressionist paintings. Barnes really became Guilm's most important client. In nineteen thirty, Paul was awarded the French Legion of Honor Order of Merit, and he tried to open a London office, but that did not do well in the wake of the Great Depression. Dominica and Paul also struggled financially during these years, and they faced some struggles in their relationship as well. And we're going to get to all of that after a sponsor break. We said earlier that Dominica and Paul Guilllme both had various relationships outside their marriage. In nineteen thirty, Guillelm was reportedly seeing a fellow art dealer her name was Jeanne Castel. Dominica was involved with architect Jean Walterire, who designed hospitals, public housing, and luxury homes and apartments. These luxury apartments included the building where Dominica and Paul lived, which is also where Jean lived with his wife and three children. Living in the same building with his wife's lover seems to have been a little too much for Paul, and he started trying to discourage that relationship, including dropping hints that Dominica might face some kind of retribution if she didn't put an end to it. After he caught Dominica and Jean in a pantry together, Paul gave her an ultimatum. Either she would have a child, thus giving him an air, or he would write her out of his will and instead leave all of his money and his art collection to a foundation. According to various sources, Dominica had a tuba lagation before they got married, so conceiving a child with him was out of the question, but she was not willing to lose out on this potential inheritance, so she faked a pregnancy by stuffing pillows under her clothes, something that was only remotely possible because she and Paul were sleeping in separate bedrooms and he was often inebriated. Well Jude the obscure moment. Then, in nineteen thirty four, Paul became acutely ill and he was admitted to the hospital. Various sources say this was because of a burst appendix. He died not long after on October first, nineteen thirty four, at the age of forty two. During his brief career, he had sold and estimated thirteen hundred paintings. This made Dominica a widow at the age of thirty six, and a will eventually was found that left her Paul's entire estate valued at six billion francs, and there were, of course, some suspicions about where this discovered will was genuine or not. Not long after, though, Dominica became mother to a boy named Jean Pierre, who was also known as Paulo. According to records. He was born in Paris on November thirtieth, nineteen thirty four, and Dominica reportedly bought him for five thousand francs, but she told people that he was Paul's child, conceived before his death. There are actually some rumors that he really was Paul's child, but with another woman that he had been having an affair with, and then that Dominica had arranged to take custody. Meanwhile, Jean Valtaire's wife had learned of his affair with Dominica, but she refused to divorce him over it, but then she died in nineteen forty one, and on September fifth of that year, Jean and Dominica got married. It seems like he had not tried to interfere with her other relationships while he was still married to somebody else, but once he was married to Dominica, he wanted her to be faithful to him. He also encouraged her to formally adopt Paulo, which she did in nineteen forty one. At this point, of course, World War II was under way and France was being occupied by Germany. In addition to his work as an architect, Jean morterire on a lad and zinc mine in Morocco. He had gotten the rights to it as part of a settlement for bad debt in nineteen twenty five. Initially, this mine had not been financially successful and he had closed it down, but he reopened it in nineteen thirty six, as demand for those medals spiked in response to rising international tensions. The mine had in the intervening years become extremely lucrative and it was supplying materials needed for the war, so Germany tried to force Jean to give up control. He refused and was consequently arrested and imprisoned. He remained in prison until the Allies liberated France, and there are rumors that Dominica bribed a German official with sex to keep Jean from being executed and to protect him while he was in prison. Young Paulo spent most of World War Two living in ken with a nanny. He returned to Paris once the war was over, but Dominica really seems to have barely tolerated his presence in her apartment. He didn't have a bedroom and instead had to sleep on a mattress under the dining table, and if she was having a party, she made him sleep in the bathtub instead. She had plenty of money, but she made him wear various hand me downs from mostly Jane's side of the family or old things of hers, and that really embarrassed him because they were obviously women's clothes. She had a reputation for being cruel and inflexible with the household staff as well. All of this really raises some questions about Waldair's relationship with Gyom. He had done things like establishing a foundation to provide annual grants to disadvantage young men with the most promising of them given life larger grants, and eventually a job at the mine. A lot of sources describe him as practical, philanthropically minded, and principled, with the exception of his very public extramarital affair with Dominica Gyllome. Not only did he have a public affair well married to someone else, but it was also with someone like Dominica. People did not understand his attraction to her at all. He also stayed with her even as her relationship with her adopted son became increasingly volatile. Paulo apparently did not know he had been adopted until he was a teenager and had been expelled from a series of boarding schools for various misbehavior. It's been pretty common at points in history to not tell people that they were adopted, but during an argument over this, Dominica told him he had been a foundling and that she had no idea who his real parents were. This was clearly something she said to him to hurt him. Although her treatment of Polo wasn't enough for Jean Valterre to end his relationship with her, it does seem like he tried to protect and support Paolo where he could. After that argument, Tracy just mentioned, Paolo left home and went to live with Jean Saint Jacques. Paolo worked at a variety of jobs before enlisting in the army in nineteen fifty five at the age of twenty one as a paratrooper. Dominica reportedly knew his commanding officer and told him to make sure Paolo was sent into active combat, framing it as wanting to make a man out of him, which has its own problems, but based on her later behavior, perhaps she was thinking it would be convenient if he were killed in action. Around the same time, Dominica started seeing doctor Maurice Laqueur for treatment of rheumatoid arthritis. Various sources described Lequeur's practice as questionable. He had a reputation for basically being a drug supplier for wealthy women. He claimed to practice psychiatry. Home me off at the acupuncture hypnoanalysis and a range of other specialties as well. Dominica started having an affair with him, going so far as to move him into the apartment with Jean's reluctant permission. LeCour also treated John for some cardiovascular issues. Then came the deaths, which started to seem suspicious. Dominica had become friends with American writer and heiress Margaret Thompson Biddle. Margaret had become Jean's business partner after her Neumont Mining Corporation bought forty nine percent of Waldare's mines. Dominica and Margaret spent a lot of time together and talked about embarking on various projects, including starting a newspaper. On June eighth, nineteen fifty six, Dominica, Margaret, Maurice Lequeur, and Dominica's brother Jean Lacaz all went to the opera together for a gala performance celebrating the King and Queen of Greece. Later that night, while getting ready for bed, Margaret died suddenly of what was diagnosed as a cerebral hemorrhage. According to one of the sources used in this episode, her office was left in disarray and a dossier had been stolen from it, but no autopsy was conducted, and then she was buried in Fontainebleau A year later. On June eleventh, nineteen fifty seven, Dominica, Jean, Walterer, and Laqueur were driving in the countryside and stopped to eat at a restaurant. Dominica and Lequeur went into the restaurant while Jean crossed the street to buy a newspaper. He was hit by a speeding car, and he was still alive when Dominica and Liqueur got to him. Liqueur treated him as they waited for an ambulance, but Jean Walter was dead by the time the ambulance arrived. Soon after Jean's death, Dominica, her brother, and Maurice Lequeur started making changes at his businesses. They removed his children from his previous marriage from the board of his foundation, and they installed LaCour instead. They claimed they had found paperwork outlining these changes in Jean Walterire's office. Although Jean had kind of tolerated LaCour's presence in their lives, he did not like that man and family members did not think this paperwork was genuine. Dominica also put her brother in charge of the mine in Morocco. Her inheritances from both Paul Guillaume and Jean Valtaire made Dominica Guilleumaltaire incredibly wealthy, and under French law, on her death, she would have to leave at least half of her estate to her adopted son. Dominica seems to have found this entire idea intolerable, so at least allegedly, she decided to try to do something about it, and we will get into that after we pause for a sponsor break. I want to put a caveat on the rest of this episode. Some of the sources that I use make it sound as though Dominica Guiel and members of her circle definitely did everything they were accused of, and then others frame everything more as allegations. Some of them make no reference to any of this whatsoever. I only know of a couple of books that talk about this in detail. They are both in French, and one of them is also out of print. A lot of the most detailed reporting in English at the time was in the tabloids, maybe unsurprisingly, there were newspapers that were offering shorter coverage that mostly focused on things like the formal court proceedings and charges being filed or dropped. But even if all the whole rest of the episode needs the word allegedly in front of it, it's still pretty wild. As we said before the break, under French law, Dominica guilloum Waldere would have to leave at least half of her estate to her adopted son, Jean Pierre known as Paolo, upon her death. The only way she could get out of this is if he died, or if she had some legal justification for revoking his adoption, like if he committed a serious enough crime. A lot of accounts are not very kind to Paolo, suggesting that he got in a lot of trouble and he couldn't really stick with anything, and that he ran up debts that had to be settled by Dominica's brother, and that he stole from the regimental mess after he was basically kicked out of the house and joined the army. But none of those rose to the level of warranting a revocation of his adoption, so allegedly Dominica hired a hitman to kill him. Maurice Lequeur had previous connections to a far right group known as Lacagour, which was known for its ties to fascism and terrorism, and these far right associates led Laqueur to Commandant Camille Rayon. Rayon did not really run in these circles. He had been part of the French resistance during World War II. He had been part of Charles de Gaull's intelligence network. He was seen as a war hero, not as right wing terrorists, so it seems kind of weird that he would get caught up in this at all. But according to Rayon, when Liqueur came to him about this, Laqueur told him that he was being hired to deal with somebody who was bringing shame to his family and was a trader. Because Liqueur alleged that Paulo was secretly working with the Algerian resistance against the French military that he was serving in again into the real account, he quickly realized that Paolo wasn't some kind of double agent. He'd had various disputes with fellow soldiers and local Algerians, but had a reputation for bravery and combat. So Rayon decided to string LaCour along. He haggled over the fee, finally settling on thirty million francs. Then he said it wouldn't be advisable to kill a French paratrooper on Algerian soil. Paolo's enlistment was ending soon, though, and Rayl said it would be better to kill him after he returned to France. After leaving the military, Paulo started training to be an airline steward. Rayon told the cour that he would intercept Paulo on his way to training and kill him. Rayon did intercept Paalo, but instead of killing him, took him to dinner and told him all about the murder plot. At first, Palo didn't really believe him, but eventually Rayon persuaded him that the only way to get out of danger was to fake his own death. We said earlier that Jean Walterre had tried to protect Paalo where he could, and Palou was still close to various members of the Waltaire family, so he agreed to participate in this plan only if Jacques Walter and Jacques's brother in law Philippe Lamour agreed to it, which they did. They also all got some advice from a lawyer named Reneme Wati. Paolou checked into a hotel under an assumed name, and Rayon took his identification papers and revolver to Laqueur as proof that the job was done. He said that he had strangled Paolou, weighed his body down with rocks and thrown it into the sin. LaCour gave reON part of his fee of thirty million francs and promised the rest in ten million franc installments. Although Palou had ultimately agreed with this plan, he still had not been entirely convinced by Rayon's whole story. But once reON came back with this payment, Paolo believed him. They left Frontine on the coast northeast of Camp, where Reyon had a home. Rayon wrote out a full account of everything that had happened and titled it quote to be given to the competent authorities in the event of my disappearance or death. He then gave this to his lawyer. His lawyer read it and just sent it directly to a prosecutor, no waiting for his disappearance or death. Meanwhile, Jacques Walterire told Dominica that Paulo had disappeared. On February seventh, nineteen fifty eight, family members gathered purportedly for Paolo's body to be transported to a cemetery. Most of the people there were related to Jean Valtaire, and Dominica herself did not attend. Philippe Lemour filled everyone in about the plot, and a few days later Jacques Valtaire told Dominica's brother Jean that Paola was really alive. Once police had been informed about all of this, they questioned both Dominica and Liqueur. Dominica at home, and Liqueur after taking him into custody. Both of them claimed that Paulo and Raon were conspiring to frame them. Lequeur admitted to giving Rayl a sizeable cash payment, but he claimed that that was for a real estate transaction. This launched an investigation that went on for eight months, and it also took a second look into those earlier deaths. Rumors surfaced that Margaret Biddle had been planning to sell her shares in the mine because she wasn't satisfied with how it was being run, which would have given Dominica a potential motive to have her killed. But new investigation into Biddle's death ruled that she had died of natural causes. Suspicions lingered around Jean Valtaire's death, but no new evidence came to light. Lequeur was indicted in connection to the murder plot, and an envelope containing nine point five million francs that was allegedly part of a murder payment was handed over to police, but Judge Jacques Battine ultimately dismissed these charges. As all of this was happening, Dominica again allegedly took another tack to rid herself of Paolo. A sex worker named Marie Terrez Goynek known as Mitti, had told both Paolo and the police that Dominica's brother, Jean La Caaz, had offered her a bribe of twenty thousand dollars to accuse Paolo of living off of her earnings. So procurement of sex work was one of the crimes that could provide legal grounds for Dominica to revoke Paolo's adoption. After receiving this tip, police tapped Dominica's and La Caza's phones, and that led to La Caza's secretary, Irene Ricard, being implicated as well as all of them discussed the transfer of a big cash payment. Lacas did not deny giving Meti money but he said she had approached him saying that Paolo had beaten her, and that he owed her six million francs. So, according to La Caaz's version, this payment was hush money. He said that he'd been cleaning up after Paolo for years, paying off various debts and otherwise trying to keep him out of trouble. To make this whole thing more complicated, Metis later changed her story, saying that she had gone to La Case, not the other way around, but maintaining that the money was a bribe for her to bear false witness against Paolo, and not hush money to keep her quiet. In February of nineteen fifty nine, The New York Times characterized all of this as involving quote two distinct plots and virtually unlimited hypotheses on their origins and development. And there were still more twists and turns. Among other things, there was a bartender named Francois Ghee who came forward and claimed that Laqueur had tried to pay him to kill Rayel in a car crash. For a time, Dominica and Liqueur fled to Morocco, but then they went back to Paris, and they had a big public press conference at the Ritz Hotel in which they tried to place all the blame for everything on to Polo. Eventually, Jean Laquaz, his lawyer, and his secretary were all charged with suborning a witness, but in June of nineteen sixty all of those charges were dropped for lack of evidence. Eventually, Paolo became a journalist and a photographer and he moved to the United States. Yeah after that, he seems to have not had any more drama with his family. Fancy that when you get away from them. Uh Lqueur spent about six months in prison during all of this, and it seems like Dominica ended her involvement with him after he was released. She and her brother, Jean la Kaz never faced trial, and there is some speculation or according to some of the sources that I used absolute certainty, that this is because she worked out a deal with Andre Mauroux, the French Minister of Culture. Under the terms of this alleged deal, which was secret if it really happened, she would sell one hundred and forty six paintings to the Nation of France for a fraction of what they were actually worth. There was definitely a sale which happened in two batches, forty seven paintings in nineteen fifty nine and ninety nine paintings in nineteen sixty three. They included works by Sezen, Renoir, Picasso, Matisse, Moggliani, de Reent, Soutine, Rousseau, Lawrenceint and Utrio, among others. The French government planned to place these works at the muse de Laurenterie, which at the time was overseen by the Louvers publicly. Dominica maintained that this was what her late husband, Paul Guilloume, had always wanted. He had always wanted to use his collection of artwork to create a French museum of modern art which would be open to the public. The Musee de Laurenerie underwent an extensive renovation to house all of these works from nineteen sixty to nineteen sixty five. They basically tore out the whole interior and made a two floor gallery structure on the inside. A temporary display of this collection was inaugurated on January thirty first, nineteen sixty six. Dominica Guillome kept possession of most of the paintings until her death on June thirtieth nineteen seventy seven, at the age of seventy nine. A year later, another extensive renovation started at the Muset Delringerie, this time to both create a permanent home for this collection, known at Dominica's request as the Jean Valtaire and Paul Guilt Collection, and to address significant structural issues that have been discovered with the building. Yeah, so we know for absolutely sure she sold this work to the nation of France. What I am less comfortable saying with absolute certainty is that it was part of a deal she worked to stay at a prison. It's possible that there is clearer documentation of that in France somewhere, but I can't really authoritatively say. Dominica yam Walter framed herself as the curator and the protector of Paul Giulm's art collection after his death, but in reality she sold about two hundred pieces from it after he had died. She also added some others. The pieces that she'd sold included his entire collection of African art and the paintings by d. Kurico that had been a big part of his establishing himself in the art world. So these paintings all exist but they are no longer part of one unified collection as they had been when he died. Who it's a lot of drama, so much drama. Do you have less dramatic listener mail? I do I have listener mail from Rachel. Rachel wrote, Hi, Holly and Tracy, longtime listener, A third time writer. I was recently in Louisville, Kentucky, which had me thinking about you all. On my way into town to spend three days doing the Bourbon Trail, I passed the Brown Hotel. Plastered on a door facing the street was a colorful poster announcing that this was where the hot brown sandwich originated. Photo one. I wouldn't have known what that was or why it was being touted had it not been for the episode on three eponymous sandwiches. Went out to dinner one evening while in Louisville, at north of Bourbon, I took a photo of the different versions of old fashions that can be ordered. I sent that to my son, who's always perfecting what he makes at home. Then I thought of Holly and how she always seems to be working on some drink, and thought she too would be interested. Finally, after returning home. I was listening to the Missouri Leviathan episode and perked up at the mention of a working saloon in Albert Cox Museum. While the Fraser Museum in Louisville doesn't have a working saloon, just an exhibit of one, it is the only museum that I've been to where you can buy either a bourbon tasting class or an old fashioned mixing class, and that then includes entry into the museum. You can also just buy museum entry without bourbon, should you like. That's about as close to a working saloon as I've seen in any museum I've been to. While the Fraser has other exhibits about Louisville and Kentucky, there is a lot of bourbon going on there. It is also at the start of the bourbon trail in town. Thanks for all you do and keeping me company at the gym. And in Atlanta traffic, Rachel Man, Atlanta traffic. I was gonna say, Man, I don't miss the Atlanta traffic, but I got caught in some Boston traffic. It's this very similar lot of similarities. So yes, there are some photos attached to this email that include the entry to the hotel that has where the Hot Brown was born as a poster, and then the menu of lots of different old fashions and getting the last one open. Oh yeah, We've got a museum that has like big bourbon barrels part on the outside of it. While I have been to a number of museums that have like restaurants that serve alcohol on the inside, I don't think I would say I've been into one that has like a saloon or a speakeasy on the inside of it. That sounds pretty cool. I feel like there's another museum I've been to with a speakeasy and I don't remember which one it was, and I feel bad. Yeah, I probably out. I have so many questions about the old fashion. Oh yeah, there are lots of different ways to make an old fashioned, actually, and different people like different versions, and there are depending on what I am in the mood for. Sometimes, when I'm somewhere that has like a particular, like their particular variety of old fashioned on the menu, sometimes that's what I will get. But sometimes I'm not in the mood for an old fashion. It depends. Yeah, do you ever drink Wisconsin style? Well? What is that? Well, there are a few Wisconsin style old fashions are completely different. Don't like and it's kind of their unofficial drink, but they're like, they involve brandy, they involve big chunks of oranges. They have Marisquino cherries usually, or they'll use marishino, which is I differentiate Marishino is the bright red, very candied ones Marasquino, which is how you would say it in Italy as the more kind of fancy pants unicorn true cocktail ones that are usually like a luxardo, like a darker that kind of thing. But they and you can top it with the soda of your choice. It's a whole different bag doing this. This is a very different thing. Yeah, I've never experienced this. Now they're pretty fun. I mean, listen, Wisconsin does know how to drink. But I'm also just curious because some people like to use a syrup in their old fashion. Some people prefer the old school sugar cube one obviously gives you a more consistent flavor throughout, or is the sugar cube version even if it's well muddled, you get a sweeter finish. It's all different, So I'm curious what they taught at her at her little you know, experience. Holly, how do you know so much about cocktails? Ah? Well, I did a lot of bartending classes. But I also very excited. My other podcast, Criminalia, has our cocktail book coming out in just a couple months that's so cool, which is called Killer Cocktails. So for that show, in case anyone doesn't know, it's historical true crime, and every episode ends with the cocktail that we've come up with that goes with the theme or some detail about the show, about the topic at hand. And so we had been getting a lot of requests from people who are like, where can I get these written down? And so now you can get many of them written down, not all of them. About half of the entries in the book are abridged versions of stories we've told on the show with their corresponding cocktails and a mocktail for everyone. And then the other half is all new content with new crime stories and new and new recipe cocktails and mocktails, which is so cool, very fun. So that is out on October fifteenth. It's called Killer Cocktails. You can get it anywhere books are sold. It also has silly illustrations. I have been sort of watching from Afar as the over the time that you've been working on this book, and it sounds very cool and I'm very excited to read it. Thank you. It's it feels like it's been one hundred years that we've been working on it, and it's been very hard to be cagy with people when they ask me like on social media, are you ever gonna put up a website? And I'm like, stay, dude, hey, the whole time, I know, like there's a book, I just can't announce it yeeah. So now it's nice to be able to be like it's going you can buy it. I did not pick this listener mail to provide. I waited. As I was reading it, I was like, huh, Holly has a cocktail book coming out. I do? I do. And I should also mention that my co host on the show, Maria Tremarky, wrote it with me, so I don't want to leave her out of all of the stuff because she was integirl and you know, just as in it as I was. But yeah, it's been an exciting ride too, and also daunting to come up with what feels like one million cocktail recipes. Really I think it's like eighty one because some entries have more than one cocktail, Like, right, there's one that has a flight of shots. Fun, but like the shots are not like pour two ounces of whiskey ports. They're like little mini cocktails and then lie on the floor. Yeah, because our rule of thumb on the show in general in life is like one people should drink whatever and however they want two, Like, people don't need to just stick to like a spirit and a mixer when making their own cocktails. You can add a couple more things and just kind of like get a more elevated or fun experience. Yeah, but also not nothing too fussy, easy enough. You don't have to have a lot of skills or stuff. So yeah, that's if it sounds like a fun way to experience historical true crime to you, you can go pick it up. I hope you do. Yeah, all right, if you want to send us a note, were at History Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com and you can subscribe to the podcast on the iHeartRadio app and wherever else you'd like to get your podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.