Judy Savage Meets World

00:00:19
Speaker 1: Did I ever tell either of you that shortly after Adler was born, Well, I guess not too shortly. He was like one or two that I sent his pictures into a modeling slash acting agency. What No, you did, you did? What happened. So when you are a new mom and you boy the hormones and the love and just all the stuff.

00:00:44
Speaker 2: You're like, my child is undeniably the most beautiful child these eyes child.

00:00:51
Speaker 1: By the way, now I look back at pictures of him and I'm like, he is a wonky of course, But at the time I just was like, I mean, I'm not right. This child is gorgeous.

00:01:06
Speaker 2: No, this is why I made a rule for myself after being around new parents like that. When I was a parent, I was like, I don't do it ever show pictures unless somebody asks. And if they ask, I show one yep, and I walk away yes, because otherwise I've been that person where I'm stuck for fifteen minutes of like, look at this video and then look and it's like, yes, your kid.

00:01:26
Speaker 3: May be cute. Totally, no one cares as much as.

00:01:29
Speaker 1: My mom did me a very big favor, and when I was bombarding her with stuff, she said, I can't get enough of this. Make sure you only do this to me. She was like, you can do this to me, and you can do this to Jensen's mom, but FYI, no one else cares cares at all. So by the way, I can't get enough, send me everything. Anytime you're thinking of anything, send me. I wanted. I could do this all day long. So I tried very hard not to do that to people, because I also have been that person stuck where I'm like, yes, it's very cute, Okay, we're good now. So I decided, well, this is a kid acting modeling agency thing. I'm going to send these pictures. So I found this an agency that was referred to us by a friend who had kids, very young kids, toddlers in print and TV acting. And I sent in pictures and it said like I followed all the instructions, and it said you will hear from us one way or another within five business days. Well, two weeks came and went and I never heard anything. And I was like, okay, I.

00:02:35
Speaker 4: Really get that agent on the phone, because they're going there waiting to hear back from all the major campaigns because they're obviously.

00:02:44
Speaker 1: Obviously, so I sent a follow up email like, hey, I saw that. It said I would hear one way or the other. I have not heard, and they were like, we did.

00:02:52
Speaker 3: Not get Danielle to Panga official.

00:02:55
Speaker 1: Correct exactly what I did in Hello, do you know who I am?

00:03:01
Speaker 3: And they Instagram follower account just in case.

00:03:05
Speaker 1: They said we did not get your submission? Would you please resend? Said absolutely, so, I resent it, And within minutes they were like, yes, we will sign him. And I immediately read the reply and said to Jensen, Nope, not interested. Definitely don't want to do it. Absolutely.

00:03:23
Speaker 2: You just needed him to be wanted, needed to know I'm not crazy, right, I'm not crazy.

00:03:31
Speaker 1: Kids beautiful think you can book this?

00:03:33
Speaker 5: Kid?

00:03:34
Speaker 1: You think you could book this? You can't have them never mind? Not interested, not interested? Thank you, not interested? Thank you, Thank you for let me know. I literally worked so hard to.

00:03:44
Speaker 3: Have this story to tell. For the rest of.

00:03:46
Speaker 1: It, I could have been.

00:03:48
Speaker 3: My mom. What a way for you to ritualistically, uh.

00:03:54
Speaker 1: Pat myself on the back, no live out.

00:03:58
Speaker 3: Your own childhood acting thing and like take control of it.

00:04:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, like I choose no.

00:04:07
Speaker 3: Up to make sure you really want me? Yeah, then I choose no Oh my god, you.

00:04:13
Speaker 2: Were going through a thing.

00:04:15
Speaker 3: I don't have children ritual.

00:04:17
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:04:17
Speaker 3: I don't know if people are aware of this, but I don't have kids.

00:04:20
Speaker 4: So the analogy I was thinking about when you were talking about this is Dan Oakrin, who used to run the New York Times, was one of the guys who created fantasy football, created fantasy sports. It was called rotisserie at the time, and he came up with a rule of thumb. He goes, just remember there's nothing as exciting as your own fantasy team and less exciting as someone else's. And so that's what that's what it seems like with children. Nothing is exciting to you and less exciting.

00:04:46
Speaker 2: The other big, big no no is if you don't have kids but you have a dog, you talk about it to people that have kids.

00:04:55
Speaker 1: Have you seen the new pictures of Sammy?

00:04:57
Speaker 2: But the amount of times that I've been in a conversation where I'm like talking about something with Indy and they're like, yeah, that's just like me with puddles my puppy, and sorry, no it's not. I love your dog, I love you. I understand that there's some sort of analogy in your brain, but please.

00:05:14
Speaker 4: That's exactly the same. She's licking my face there. Oh yeah, man, you know either probably doesn't like your face.

00:05:21
Speaker 1: There you go, you know what Keaton does?

00:05:23
Speaker 4: Okay, so I writ did you did you now to finish the story?

00:05:29
Speaker 3: Did you do it once again with Keaton? Just to get another.

00:05:33
Speaker 1: But to be fair, Keaton was born looking like he was going to be a comedian. What's the deal with childbird? I was like, this kid's gonna have to be funny. So and he is.

00:05:47
Speaker 3: He's really unny. It works for some of us.

00:05:51
Speaker 1: He's grown into his face. Okay, he's just he's.

00:05:56
Speaker 2: You just already had a child, so you weren't obsessed the same degree because you were like this one.

00:06:01
Speaker 3: You're actually seen his face for what it was.

00:06:05
Speaker 1: His picture from the hospital. He he literally came out looking like a judgmental rabbi. He's like this.

00:06:12
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Indy came out looking like a boxer had just been through like.

00:06:17
Speaker 3: Nine rounds, all closed. His face is all red. It was just like Jesus, dude, kids have to look that way.

00:06:23
Speaker 4: You're coming through a tiny little hole into the world on I know. But yeah, well he is funny.

00:06:33
Speaker 1: He's so funny.

00:06:34
Speaker 3: He's got a grape person. He's gonna take him far, take him far places.

00:06:40
Speaker 1: Damn it absolutely true. Welcome to pod Meets World.

00:06:43
Speaker 3: I'm Daniel Fishl, I'm Rider Strong, and I'm Wilfordell.

00:06:58
Speaker 1: So to day, we are so honored this week to welcome a very important figure in mine and writer's life to the podcast. One of the most important figures in our careers, or at least in creating them, and a legendary name when it comes to the overall field of child acting. I was first introduced to her because she was writer's agent and the person whom my mom found in a book basically called So You Want to Act wasn't exactly getting me the contract everyone thought I deserved. So I switched over and immediately she had my salary doubled. In short, she is a baller. For forty years, she was a go to name in the business, a profession she stumbled on while in Detroit commuting to LA for her three kids' dreams of acting, and the rest, they say is history, a history that included names from the golden era of eighties and nineties kids on TV and in movies. She had her hand in the careers of Andrea Barber, Danica mckeller, Larissa Olainik, Kelly Martin, Emma Stone, Shalne Woodleigh, Hillary Sway, Jodie Sweeten, Elizabeth Berkley, alian A j and Ashley Johnson, just to name a few. She's quite a roster. She has since retired, leaving behind a legacy of alumni thankful for her guidance and hard work. Something I know I can say helped shape me into who I am today. It's time to welcome to the podcast writer and my former talent agent. With absolutely no relation. Before you ask Judy Savage, he oh my gosh, how do you look exactly the same? Just shorter hair?

00:08:36
Speaker 3: You do?

00:08:38
Speaker 1: You do?

00:08:39
Speaker 2: You?

00:08:39
Speaker 1: Literally your face is exactly the face I have in my mind's eye of sitting in front of you.

00:08:45
Speaker 6: Well, you know what, there are facelifts and fillers.

00:08:49
Speaker 1: I need some of those, really need some of those for sure. So when we first started this podcast and we were brainstorming guests, you were truly a dream get for us. We are really yes, yes, you came up.

00:09:07
Speaker 2: Like episode one because Danielle and I were sitting there going how did we end up in the business?

00:09:12
Speaker 3: How did we get on Boy Meets World?

00:09:14
Speaker 2: And it was like, well, Judy Savage, Judy Savage, and then yeah, it just became you.

00:09:18
Speaker 6: You were the first one dream for me.

00:09:20
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't mean to frighten us all, but writer has a son the age basically that he was when you guys met.

00:09:31
Speaker 6: I know, and he's so talented. I wish I was still working.

00:09:36
Speaker 1: So that you could have Indy, so I could have Indy. I know he is.

00:09:41
Speaker 3: Will you as well? Thank you for joining us?

00:09:47
Speaker 2: So can I just tell you for me? For you, it was like seeing Judy's face. For me, it's hearing Judy's voice gives me such excitement because if Judy called and left a message, it was meant we were here hearing something about either an audition or good news, and we saved messages when she called and left a message that we got apart and we would save them. And so I hear your voice and I immediately get so happy and excitement and also like this sense of like confidence, like Judy's taking care of it. It's gonna be like whatever whatever she's calling about, it's gonna be something that you know, we need to deal with, and Judy's gonna take care of it.

00:10:26
Speaker 3: You just such confidence.

00:10:28
Speaker 6: When I started my agency, my three children, who were all child actors, were just all going off to college, and you were my new kids. And I felt just like I was your aunt or your mother or something. I mean, I loved every one of my clients.

00:10:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, we felt it, we did, We felt it. And you were also we named the long roster of kids that you've had that have gone on to be enormously successful, and you were kind of selective about who you picked as an agent, right.

00:11:02
Speaker 6: Absolutely. I would go out of town Diane Harden, who we worked together because she was an acting teacher, and so Diane and I would go out of town and do seminars, and we would ask people to come back and be with us for what was pilot season, which we don't have anymore, but pilot season, and then we would send them on interviews. But sometimes I'd find really really talented kids and I'd say, you need to come to Hollywood. But I wouldn't represent her because their mothers were nightmares. I won't mention any names, but two or three of them you would know, and they've become very famous.

00:11:48
Speaker 1: But I did.

00:11:50
Speaker 6: I had so many wonderful mothers and wonderful kids. I just didn't want to have the stress, more stress of having stage mothers.

00:12:02
Speaker 2: So how would you make that determination? So you obviously you can see a kid performing doing a scene. I wanted these seminars and you can say immediately that that kid's got the thing or the look or whatever we need. And then would you ask to meet the parents or how would you make the determination?

00:12:20
Speaker 6: Yes, I always met and talked to the parents. If the parent wouldn't let the child talk for himself or herself, if the parent if it was her dream, or you could always tell that it was not the child's dream. I mean, so many children would come to see me and they'd say, I don't want really want to be here, but my mother wants me to do it, or my dad wants me. And I wouldn't take them because, you know, I'd say, go and play baseball, or go and play because I'd ask him what's your favorite thing to do, and they'd say play base ball, played football, play video games.

00:13:03
Speaker 5: Whatever.

00:13:03
Speaker 6: I'd say, then go do that. And also there were a lot of people that came in to see me and I'd have them read and even though they were I could tell had talent, they were not good readers, So I would tell the parents, you know what, I'd like to represent this child. I think she's got or he's got great potential, but they need to read better, so you're going to have to read to them at home, have them take an acting class. And then after I kind of hooked up with Diane Harden, I was looking for It's a kind of long story. How much time do we have?

00:13:43
Speaker 1: As much time as I sat.

00:13:48
Speaker 6: One of my children was working with Mercedes m Cambridge and we were at CBS. Must have been Brad, my youngest one, and she asked us to go to lunch, and we went to the commissary and had lunch and she said, tonight, after I finished working, I'm going to go to class. And I said, at your age and your talent and your resume, you're going to go to acting class. And she said, well, of course, I have to keep up my.

00:14:18
Speaker 3: Craft.

00:14:19
Speaker 6: Yeah, skills, skills. And I said, that's interesting. Could be because all the child actors I know don't have a place to study. And what happens is they get on a series when they're six, seven, even three or four, and then by the time they're eight, they're gone. And she said, that's because they have no training. So I started looking for somebody to train my kids, and I went to a lot of different places, and most of the people who were trying to teach were just talking about the her own careers, and I couldn't see any teaching going on. So somebody told me about Diane Harden. I knew about Melaura because she was working Diane's daughter. And somebody told me that Diane Harden had a class in a church basement, and I decided, I'm going to go see that. I went to see it. I walked in and she was doing something I had never seen children do. She was doing a class with half improvisation and half scene study, and I thought, oh my god, this is amazing. And when those kids were improvising, all of them they were I met Mandy Ingbar there. I don't know if you know who she is, and she was an aunt at a picnic, and I swear to god she was an aunt, and so right that night I signed her and she went on to do a Broadway show. Within weeks. I decided then I was then Diane and I had a lunch that was supposed to go an hour. It went three hours and I said, Diane, anybody that I represent that is going to go out theatrically, I'm going to send them to you for classes. So she said great, and it frightened all the other agents because they thought that she was going to take people away from her other She had lots of people in her classes. She was going to take people away from her classes and give them to me. She didn't ever do.

00:16:35
Speaker 3: That, right, We didn't.

00:16:38
Speaker 6: We weren't in Cahoo's. We just worked together. So all I would send kids out for commercials, and a lot of them got commercials, but if it was theatrical, I would send them to Diane, and Diane and Nora soon Nora Eckstein soon became partners, and they did something that no other acting teacher did. They would take the kids to the interviews and they didn't charge them for their classes once they were once they were managing them, and they would take them to the network and coach them at the network. Wow, and pretty soon I had thirty six kids on network television. It's just the perfect time when television we before streaming. So everybody that got a series, the.

00:17:33
Speaker 1: Series would go seven eight years.

00:17:36
Speaker 6: Yeah, they all went seven or eight years, but they also you'd get picked up maybe for thirteen, and then you'd go through the summer and then you get picked up for another thirteen. There were long, long shows because they needed to get one hundred shows for set to sell to syndication. There's no syndication anymore, and that's why I would streaming. They order eight shows, then you have to wait a whole year to see if they're going to do eight shows. So the business was so much more lucrative in that time. So I had all of these kids and they were working, and I was always worried when they got a movie, a really good movie, because then the big agents would come after them like hawks. As long as they were doing television and commercials, the big agents couldn't take them. Well, they could take them away, but they couldn't get the commission. Interestly, once she put somebody on the show, you get the commission. And all the people I worked with were honorable people. And even when they even when we quit signing contracts, they always pay. They paid the commission. I never had to worry about that.

00:18:57
Speaker 1: So let's go back just a little bit to the beginning, because I think for our dear listeners, one I think a nice little overview about what a talent agent does would be helpful. But also I want to talk about you specifically. You mentioned that your three kids were actors. You were originally living in Detroit before you ended up making the.

00:19:17
Speaker 6: Yes, I was living in Detroit, and from the time I was a child, I wanted to be in show business, to dream myself to Hollywood, but I had no talent. I took singing lessons and dancing lessons and acting lessons, and I just had no talent. But my oldest son had this amazing boy soprano voice, and he got into the Mame, the musical Mame, and he did Meme from the time he was nine until he was fifteen. She's what brought us to California. He did not only Meme, he did Oliver King and I sounded music three times I'm all in the night visitors, And once he got started, then the other two did. And so all three of my kids were working constantly. And when that happened, we've all moved to California, and I went to work for their agents at the time was Mary Grady. And I went to work for Mary Grady for two or three years, and then I started my own agency. And well, here's another little personal thing. I got a divorce and I'm still good friends with my ex husband and his wife. We get together for holidays and birthdays. But he was going through a bad time and he didn't work for a year, so he couldn't give us any child support or any money. So I said, what am I going to do? And he said, you'll figure it out, you always do. So I started flipping houses accidentally get through college along with the money they made, and to start the agency. And it took between five and ten years for the agency to build up enough so it was supporting all four of us, and then from then on it was just it was just great once I once I got that much money coming in, I could start saving for the future and investing and all that.

00:21:32
Speaker 5: Wow.

00:21:33
Speaker 1: Wow, I mean, what it sounds like someone saying you'll figure it out you always do can be taken one of two ways. Either a real like it's all on me, or you can just hear that and think, yeah, I'm capable, and look what you were able to accomplish.

00:21:52
Speaker 6: If that hadn't happened, if he had been able to support us, I wouldn't have accomplished all that I accomplished, it was it turned out to be a very good thing.

00:22:03
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:22:05
Speaker 6: Being in the business then was so much better than now. Now. There are very few shows with young people on it, if you notice, and they don't pay like they used to pay. Streaming shows they now would pay. Maybe. Well, I sold my agency and Stella and Mark Smith are running it. And Mark Smith is my friend. Ever, he's like third son, and he told me that for the stream for the streamers, they are paying top of the show. No, they're paying about forty thousand dollars to the two leads maybe, and then everybody else gets top of the show, which is ten thousand dollars now, which when I started was two thousand dollars. But that's it. And they don't care if they lose people's word.

00:23:02
Speaker 2: And then there's no residuals because it's just because they're streaming indefinite streaming.

00:23:05
Speaker 3: Yep. Yeah, it's certainly a different time in the industry, that's.

00:23:10
Speaker 6: For sure, completely different. I was absolutely so lucky. I'm lucky to have all you wonderful people.

00:23:19
Speaker 1: Well we were lucky as well. We were so lucky to have you. Will you give everybody a kind of an overview of exactly what a talent agent does, because I don't know that we've ever really gone into too much detail about it, and I think our dear listeners would like to know.

00:23:46
Speaker 6: Okay, good question. A talent agent. People always say, oh, you're a casting director. No, it was not a casting director, a talent agent. In the very beginning, I used to have to run from all the different studios and read the scripts, then make a breakdown, and then we had to make books, and we took our books with us on our rounds to all the studios and left a book, and we had to keep up dating. It was really a lot of work. At the same time that I was starting, there was a young boy who was I think sixteen years old. His mother had an agency. He did that for her, and after a couple of years of doing that, he came out what is still called the Breakdown Service. He sold it to all the agents and he's got a booming business now because it was so much easier for all of us to subscribe to the Breakdown Agency and see what are the breakdowns every day? What parts are out there?

00:25:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, just to make it clear, the breakdowns are a list of all the parts available per script, so how many all the roles that need to be filed.

00:25:11
Speaker 6: And all the things that are casting that day or we or if it's a movie that month anyway, and then we talent agents had to call or or still we had to in the beginning, when you're trying to prove yourself, you had to get an appointment to get into the casting director's office and take pictures. And sometimes if it was an older it was easy to get the little kids started, but if it was a teenager that you really believed in, you'd have to go and sit in an office with a picture and resume and just beg them to bring them in. And they would usually once they brought them in, and then they'd know you had good taste, and then you wouldn't have to do that the next time. But it's a hard business to get started, any part of it, acting, the casting, the agenty, directing and producing, any part of the business, it's hard to get break into.

00:26:22
Speaker 2: And so after you've but that's what made that's but after you've made the connection. So let's you have a client, less you have their headshots, you get the breakdowns of what the studios are looking for for their project. There's a connection made you send your client in. What happens next when they get the part, let's say, or a call back? What is the next step once.

00:26:42
Speaker 6: They go in that you may go in with and there's ten or twelve people reading for the same part, then you have to just crossingers that you're going to get a callback. And once I started sending people to Diane Harden, almost all of her students got callbacks. And then if it was a big part, if it was just a part for a guest star for the week, it didn't usually have to go to the network. You might just go back for a match between two people. But what some series or a starring in a movie, you'd have to go to the network, and they do matchups at the network, and sometimes more than once. And so it was a hard process to get a part unless you were really well known. And then sometimes you know, by the time you've got quite well known, people would offer you certain parts.

00:27:41
Speaker 1: Right, and then the part that I remember so well is the part that comes even after that, So a child books apart and then it becomes all about the negotiating of their contract.

00:27:55
Speaker 6: Ye, well, and that's what I love the most.

00:28:00
Speaker 3: That's what you were the best.

00:28:01
Speaker 2: You were the best, well, you were the I'm sorry it wasn't it if memory serves, didn't you have to have your contract negotiated before your screen tested?

00:28:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, because they What happened was, yeah, they wanted to make sure that you could they couldn't fall in love with you for the part, and then you turned around and went.

00:28:19
Speaker 3: Well, now I won one hundred and fifty thousand dollars an episode.

00:28:21
Speaker 4: So you had to not only worry about getting the role, auditioning and then the screen test, which is the most nerve wracking thing in the history of the world, but also your agent is negotiating your contract the whole time you're actually screen testing.

00:28:36
Speaker 3: So it was it was nuts.

00:28:39
Speaker 6: I know. And the worst place to negotiate with was Disney always they did the most work for children and young adults, and they were all wonderful people over there. I loved them all, but they were they were so tight with their money. And I remember Tim Taylor's uh, I can't remember the name Improvement. I had all three boys on that show, and when they first tested, they tested so many kids, and two of them were brand new, so I could only get twenty five hundred episode for the youngest one, seventy five hundred for the middle one because he had quotes, and five thousand an episode for the third one. So what you did usually was renegotiate in the third year and the fifth year if they go long enough. Well, the third year came up and I decided to renegotiate for all three boys. Well I had to. I went back to them and they said, we will give you two more tickets to the tape. And so I said to the mothers, I've learned that if you say no, you'll get what you want. So I went back to the casting director and I said, all three of my boys are sick. And I told her what I'm and she said, well, well that can't be. And it went dragged on and on and on, and they kept giving me like I'll give you fifty dollars a week or one hundred dollars. No, nope, nope. I wanted to get them all up to seventy five hundred and the one that was a seventy five hundred, ten thousand. So finally they put out new breakdown for all new children. Wow, And I said, don't be I sent in new people myself. I sent in a lot of the people that went in the first time and didn't get it, and I kept saying to them, just don't be scared. We've got a bluffemer we'll ever get anything. You'll be at the same salary for eight years. Finally they came back and they agreed to everything I wanted, and so I toltal everybody and they were all so excited. And then I got the reputation that I was the agent that broke the back of Disney.

00:31:22
Speaker 2: A.

00:31:24
Speaker 3: Good rep to have.

00:31:26
Speaker 6: I didn't really break the back, but I got a better salary for the three boys.

00:31:33
Speaker 3: Well this is I mean, this is what was.

00:31:35
Speaker 2: What I remember so well, is like, you know, with my mom and my dad coming into the industry.

00:31:42
Speaker 3: You are just so clueless.

00:31:44
Speaker 2: You know, unless you come from the industry yourself, like as a parent, they had no idea. And you're so excited by the prospect of Disney, for instance, you know, and you think it's like an honor to be a kid on a Disney show.

00:31:57
Speaker 3: That must mean something.

00:31:58
Speaker 2: So you're willing to sacrifice what otherwise you would never accept. And they're going to take advantage of that as a giant corporation that's trying to, you know, cut every corner they can, and so I always knew, like I know that. The second my mom met you, she was like, Nope, we're trusting Judy, because you had this amazing balance of having been a stage parent yourself, understanding the desire, the love for the talent, and the love for the art. But then you were also so strong and willing to negotiate and never scared by these huge corporations who could make her break your client's careers. And that was so comforting to know, because I think, I think a lot of agents, you know, don't do that. They don't stand up, and you always did.

00:32:45
Speaker 6: I learned from the agent that I worked for who's now deceased, so I can say her name, and she was a lovely, lovely lady. She was. She represented my children when they were working Grady Mary Grady.

00:33:03
Speaker 1: I would because I offs, and I would.

00:33:07
Speaker 6: Hear her and somebody came in with an offer, she would go, oh, thank you. Never tried to negotiate. I thought, I'll ever do that. And that's one of the reasons I started my own agency. Wow, was because I knew I heard all these amounts that people got, but the only way you're going to get them is to say no. Not only that, I got to be friendly with a lot of the producers, a lot of the casting characters. I've lunch to them, and eventually I could say to him, Okay, what have you got in the budget for this? Yeh, And they'd help me later on after they got to know me.

00:33:48
Speaker 3: Yes.

00:33:49
Speaker 1: I mean, it's absolutely one of the things I remember most about you, because I don't know if you remember working with my father on my contracts for Boy Meets World, But my dad was also a very tough and very good negotiator, and my dad loved working with you, the two of you together redlining contracts and fighting to get me a fair contract. And because you represented writer who obviously had a lot more experience than I did, but you knew what they were paying writer, and so you had a number in mind that you were trying to get me to for.

00:34:25
Speaker 6: And I remember I really had a hard time because somebody had put you on the show at a.

00:34:32
Speaker 1: Really long enough that's exactly right.

00:34:35
Speaker 6: Very hard time getting them to increase it.

00:34:39
Speaker 1: You had to double my salary between I think seasons four and five. I went from making seventy five hundred an episode to making fifteen thousand dollars an episode. And the way we did that is not unlike your story about the Home Improvement Boys. I came right down to the wire and I had to threaten anther show up to a table read. And I was in that same situation, except I was very nervous I was going to lose my job. I didn't want to lose the job. I was willing to do it for whatever. You know. I was like, whatever, I don't get to see this money anyway, it's going into an account. Please just don't lose this job for me. And I remember crying on the phone to you and my dad saying I'm going to trust you, but but just please don't lose this job for me. And you're saying I'm not going to.

00:35:25
Speaker 6: But what helped me was the fact that your dad was willing to take yes.

00:35:30
Speaker 1: And he was and he was yeah. He was saying to me, She's exactly right. You cannot allow them to walk all over you. And unless you want to be paid this same amount that you're getting paid now that you you know, they've acted as though making seventy five hundred by season four with some ooh, that's some gift. But you knew what everyone else was making, and you knew that's not fair, not equitable, and I still we still never in full seven seasons, we never did get me to a place where I was matched to what anyone else made. I always made less so everyone else on the show. And they said it's because of where I started. I started at a low threshold. I was never going to get up from there. But you did your darnedist and it was. It was incredible to watch, and you taught me a lot about negotiating, So thank you for that.

00:36:18
Speaker 6: Oh you're welcome. One thing that was helpful in negotiating is if you had a movie to negotiate, and if it was a new person, they would always offer scale plus ten. Yes, But if you two people that were being considered for that movie, and one of them, like I remember, Luke Edwards did a lot of movies, and he got up to one hundred thousand a movie really fast. So when I'd have two people and one of them would be Luke, I would hold out for the brand new one to get a hundred parson amazing.

00:37:00
Speaker 1: Okay, So you'd hold out for the other person to get one hundred thousand dollars.

00:37:05
Speaker 6: Yes, And that was so helpful when one client, you know, had a really high quote and I could have had a good relationship with the producer or the casting director, and then I'd say, look, you're paying this one this much. You've got to pay this person. It's the job is worth one hundred thousand dollars. And then I remember when I had my first million dollars person that got a million dollars, and I was.

00:37:38
Speaker 1: Just could you tell us who it was?

00:37:41
Speaker 6: Oh, yes, I can, but I can't remember. Then I had other people after that, but this was well, Shyleen Woodley got a million dollars on one movie and three million on another one. But this is before that. It was it was a Disney and it was three movies, and it was the singing and dancing.

00:38:02
Speaker 3: One high school musical, High school.

00:38:04
Speaker 6: Musical, Thank you Okay, you're not old and senile like I am. They hired all these people and it was such a big hit, and they paid them all like thirty five thousand for the first one, and then for the second one. I think we got five hundred thousand. Right on the third one, we got it up to a million dollars and I couldn't believe it. I thought, oh my god, I've struck gold.

00:38:34
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:38:36
Speaker 4: Well, the second one, the Second High School Musical, I think is still one of, if not the highest rated cable movies of all time.

00:38:45
Speaker 6: Yeah.

00:38:45
Speaker 4: Right, so, yeah, that that franchise really sparked a lot of careers.

00:38:49
Speaker 3: And yeah, and they were making money off of.

00:38:51
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, not just the actor, the companies that the company was making hundreds of millions of dollars off the high school.

00:38:59
Speaker 6: They showed it where I'm living. I went to see it, and I thought, those kids got a million.

00:39:10
Speaker 2: That's what I love when people hear about the big famous negotiations that go down with like Seinfeld or friends, you know, with these casts band together and they hold out for tons of money and they always get it right. And what you realize is if you, you know, and people think like, oh my gosh, these actors make so much money, think about how much the production is making. If they're able to pay actors at that level, they're making their printing money. So you have like it's not like a regular trickle down situation. Most often actors are being taken advantage of even though it's a great life. Absolutely, And the truth about acting too is that you work one year and then don't work for two or three. So getting paid well for one job is supposed to sustain you through seasons of auditioning. So you have to think of it as not as like a yearly sound. It's like a five year salary every time you get a job.

00:40:03
Speaker 3: That's true.

00:40:03
Speaker 6: Well, I think the statistic I don't know what they are now because I've been retired for five years, but I think the statistics were only one in one hundred actors make over one hundred thousand dollars a year consistently. Wow, that's horrible odds.

00:40:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it really is. Well, that was one of the things that Rider.

00:40:30
Speaker 4: I remember you and I going into was it six season or seven seasons? You and I we matched met, we went favored nations and kind of just said, hey, if we bond together, then you know, what are they going to do?

00:40:41
Speaker 3: Fire us both?

00:40:42
Speaker 4: When we looked at each other and went, well, then they'll fire us both, Like we were both like okay, that's what they're going to do.

00:40:47
Speaker 3: But there's a power in that.

00:40:48
Speaker 4: There is a power, and you and I kind of holding hands and going, all right, see what happens, right, so and it worked.

00:40:54
Speaker 6: And the problem with doing that with the cast that started out unease even in their negotiations is you really can't hold their feet to the fire when they started at all different places.

00:41:11
Speaker 1: Exactly. Do you remember meeting Writer in Shiloh for the first time.

00:41:27
Speaker 6: Oh? Yes, it was in San Francisco, and Diane and I took a trip up there. Kelly Martin and her mother went with us. Chad Allan, an old Chad Chad and they were like big stars at the time. And Diane and I were always doing silly things and Kelly, it's so embarrassed. And anyway, we came to see a Writer and Schila were studying with an man named Docott. His Namestercott, and he had a class in San Francisco and we came to see it, and Writer and Shilah were just standouts. But there was another little girl on that show and she had her own show eventually for that day, Larissa, and she was in that class, but she didn't have the star quality right away. I mean, you guys have been doing films at home from the time you were two and four Larisa. Uh. I think it was probably your mother that told me about Laris. And then I saw her and I said, oh, she's great, she just needs a little training. And she right away got Alex Mack. And that negotiation was with Nickelodeon, which is also very low paying, and they offered her twenty five hundred dollars an episode, and she had no quotes, she'd never done anything. She didn't even have a commercial. And so I tried and tried and tried and tried, so finally the only way I could get around it now numbers are different now than they were back then. Yeah, And I said, okay, you could pay her twenty five hundred an episode, but you've got to do two episodes in a week. So at least I got her five thousand.

00:43:39
Speaker 1: A week, right, and for half the amount of time.

00:43:42
Speaker 6: Yeah, And well what happened is they couldn't do two episodes in a week. They always had to there was too much going on, you know how, there was too much going on in the week. So she got paid five thousand dollars a week, which I was trying to get her in the beginning. Now, my kids worked, which was like ten years before they would make like one thousand and fifteen hundred two thousand on a show. Then it changed so much in the ten years.

00:44:21
Speaker 1: Well, we listed off before you came on, We listed off so many incredible actors, just a small list of some of the actors you had worked with. What would you say a was maybe a common trait or ability all of your clients had.

00:44:37
Speaker 6: Well, I used to say, we all know what we're looking for when we go to these conventions. Cute, short, and talented, because in those days, if you're you want somebody that has a great look, and you want them small for their age, because they like six year olds to play for and ten years supposed to play eight on and on and on. But then you want them to grow when they get to be teenagers and some of the some of the ones. But but they also you can tell when they're three years old if that if it's if they've got it. Jodie Sweeten came into my office when she was three years old. She read like she was six and seven, and she was just bubbling and sparkling, and I just knew she had it. And the first week I had her, she got two or three commercials and a series. She got full House. She was supposed to be the breakout and turned out to be the twins that they added that were the breakout on that you're not always right no matter how long you're doing Diane and I found. We used to go to New York to a convention every year for twenty eight years. It was called the IMTA Convention International Model and Talent and there were people that got actors from all over the country and actually some from London and Japan, models mostly, and they do this convention and we would go there. They'd put us up in the Hilton Hotel and they would pay for our meals and our plane fare, and then we'd work for them all day judging the talent, and then at night we'd go to the theater. So we always looked forward to this, but we found lots and lots of good talent there, so it was well worth it for us, even though we spent so much money on the theater that we didn't make out.

00:46:50
Speaker 1: Money was right, he make it out later, Yeah, with the talent.

00:46:54
Speaker 6: Well.

00:46:54
Speaker 1: One of the actors we mentioned you worked with was Emma Stone, who is now arguing the premier name in Hollywood, able to pick whatever project she wants work with any director she wants. I mean, she's primed to win maybe a dozen Oscars in her lifetime. She's won two Academy Awards I know, and probably will win ten more in her lifetime.

00:47:17
Speaker 6: And uh, did anybody see the movie that she did this year, Poor Things?

00:47:24
Speaker 1: I did not, but right now, oh my god.

00:47:27
Speaker 6: It is so bizarre but so good, and she's naked most of the way through it. But it's not it's not lascivious.

00:47:39
Speaker 3: It's just it's a remarkable done. It's remarkable, and then it.

00:47:46
Speaker 2: Doesn't work unless you have somebody that can do that, which is just she's incredible.

00:47:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, So when she walks in, do you see that in her? Do you see her and just know right away, like that's going to be somebody who grows up to win Oscars.

00:48:01
Speaker 6: She'd win two Academy Awards, and she was amazing, and I knew she'd work. But I mean, it's the talent and the training, but it's all about the luck of getting a certain project or a certain director falling in love with you. The director that did Poor Things is the same director she worked with the year before when she got an Academy Award.

00:48:33
Speaker 3: The favorite, the favorite.

00:48:36
Speaker 6: Yes, I need you around it as my brain. And he fell in love with her, and so he used her again for the night for his next movie. And if you'll see there are certain actors like Leonardo DiCaprio always worked with a certain director, and that part of your career is just luck. You know, you can't predict that.

00:49:00
Speaker 1: Absolutely no.

00:49:02
Speaker 6: I met Leonardo when he was just a little boy, I think seven or eight. My husband used to go biicycle riding with Leo's father. They were very poor, and he came in to see me, and I was so excited because I thought, this kid is amazing. But then he went to see Harry Gold and they showed him pictures of the Gold Girls and the series they were on, and so he decided to go with Harry Gold and he stayed there long. He then went to a bigger agent.

00:49:38
Speaker 1: But was it competitive back then as an agent? Were agents clywing to get each other's clients?

00:49:46
Speaker 6: We were more friendly And I know when somebody that I mean the almost all of the agents that handled children and young adult else I was friends with. And if it would be the next ladder up that tried to steal your clients, all of us that were kind of the same level. If somebody came in my office and I knew it was a client of Harry Gold or a client of I'm trying to think who was really a Meredith.

00:50:26
Speaker 3: And I would Irish Iris Burden or well.

00:50:31
Speaker 6: Iris not so much. Iris was so mean spirited and so mean to the kids. You know, there are all kinds of stories of what she would do and say to the kids, and I didn't like that. I mean, I remember saying, if somebody has a baseball game, let them go play baseball. I'm not going to be the agent. I hope. I'm not going to be the agent that when these kids are forty years old, they're on the couch saying my agent made me do this, and I didn't want to do it, and I didn't want to disappoint her, so I would Krista Denton. I don't know if you remember Krista. Krista is teaching now. She's got three sons in college and she's teaching acting where she lives up North. She was very religious, and sometimes she'd be on because and she was such a good actress, and sometimes she would be on a callback for a movie and I'd say I'm sorry, she's at a religious thing whatever it was, and they would wait for her. They respected what she wanted to do. Some kids, I would say, they're playing baseball and they wouldn't wait. It would just depend.

00:52:01
Speaker 1: Well, you now have grandkids. How many grandchildren do you have?

00:52:05
Speaker 6: I only have three. Only I have Keaton, who is thirty five thirty four, and he is working for an advertising agency and he was a child actor for a little while and loved it, but his mother didn't want to drive him on interviews. And then Trevin, who's just adorable and who would have done very well, but she didn't her mother. It was the same mother. She didn't want to do it, and her mother wouldn't take her on interviews. And I was too busy to drive him. And then Michael, Tracy's son. Tracy was a news reporter for thirty years and after being a child actor, and she took a year off to get her master's degres read and she got pictures, and she got some pictures for Michael, and she said, send him out on a few things and see what happens. Well, he was five. He went on six interviews, he got six callbacks, he got six commercials and they all ran for like three years, and I don't know what she saved everything. It's at least a couple hundred thousand dollars for college, maybe more. And when he turned six, he started playing baseball, and everybody in my office was so excited because this was a kid that was like six for six. So they started sending him on movies and television and things that he had to read, and he read like a six year old. He didn't read like a ten year old, and so he'd always get a callback, but he wouldn't get the park. So one day he called me and he goes Grandma Judy. I said yes, he said, I've got a call back today. And I know that callbacks I have to go on because it's a commitment. But if I don't get this one, I want to quit. And I said, oh why, and he said because they don't pay me anything. Because he didn't know, and he said, I hate driving to Santa Monica and he said, I want to play baseball. He said, well, play baseball then, and then he did. He went and played sport.

00:54:33
Speaker 1: Well. When I discovered last night that you have a grandson named Keaton, because Keaton is my youngest son's name.

00:54:41
Speaker 6: Oh, and I love that name.

00:54:43
Speaker 1: I do too, And I had never heard of another Keaton. And you said your Keaton is thirty five. Mine is turning three in August. Do you know where the inspiration for the name Keaton came from for them?

00:54:56
Speaker 6: Yes, my uh daughter in law. Her background is Welsh and it's a Welsh name, but I don't know what it means.

00:55:09
Speaker 1: It's like eagle something.

00:55:12
Speaker 6: Two children, Treven and Keaton, and her name is Bronwin and they're all Welsh names.

00:55:20
Speaker 1: I love it. I about died when I saw last night, and I looked up your grandkid's names, and I was like, kitten, there's another Keating.

00:55:27
Speaker 5: Mother Kitten, and I all know of one other Keaton and he I represented his mother and his mother's sister and she loved that name when she was a teenager.

00:55:43
Speaker 6: And Mike Keaton's got red hair, and she has two little children with red hair, so she named one of them Keaton.

00:55:51
Speaker 1: So cute. Have you ever? Have you ever gone on to represent any of your former clients' children?

00:56:01
Speaker 6: Not let me think. I don't think so well.

00:56:05
Speaker 4: I was.

00:56:06
Speaker 6: I ran the agency myself for forty five years and not really that.

00:56:12
Speaker 1: I can think if you had, if you were still doing it, if you hadn't retired, you'd be representing Indy and then that could have been the first time.

00:56:20
Speaker 6: Oh I know. In fact, I was invited to a party that Diane Harden's clients gave to her and Kelly Martin, Elizabeth Berkeley. I'm trying to think. There were about six of them that were begging me to go back into business. The six of them, they're all with adult agents, They're all a lot of them are working. Kelly's directing. But they said, we've never had an agent that we were close to, and that works so hard for us.

00:56:56
Speaker 1: Yes, I know it's changed. Wow, engaged you have. You were absolutely somebody in my career that my family and I and I know Writer as well, knew, without a shadow of a doubt, had our backs and we felt protected and we felt safe, and we knew we could trust you. And you were just such a guiding light in an industry that, like Writer mentioned, when you are not from this area, when you don't have other family in the entertainment industry, it just feels like you are looking for anyone who knows what's going.

00:57:36
Speaker 6: On, and no.

00:57:38
Speaker 1: But it's true. It was you were definitely a person and writer certainly spread the word. You know, writer was one of those people saying, listen, there's nobody better. This is the person you should be with and.

00:57:51
Speaker 2: Know, and Judy, I mean I to be you know, follow up on something that you said earlier too about you know, supporting the kid as a kid as a whole person. For me, I remember, I wrote my first screenplay when I was fifteen, and I think, you know, being being a tough, great agent and representing is one thing, but you took my script, went and got coverage done for it, and supported me as this you know, flailing young screenwriter, and you continued to bring it up to me. I remember when I was twenty and I was, you know, Goame's world was ending and I wanted to go to New York to go to college. You were like, yeah, go you got your writing, you got other things. This isn't you know, I'll be here, And it was That was so amazing because I think in any other I just I just feel like there's for somebody to be as good and as tough for their clients as you were. But then on the flip side to also be understanding and supportive of them as a whole person. Like I just can't thank you enough.

00:58:51
Speaker 6: Well, thank you, Writer. But you know what, I loved you guys. I loved all of you. I loved your families. We took a trip to My husband and I and Diane and Jerry Harden took a trip to it a little together.

00:59:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he.

00:59:09
Speaker 6: Stayed in a castle for the time, and we stayed in a like two thousand year old farm house. The castle. They brought every afternoon a bus full of strange a bust full of tourists, and they'd wander around the outside. Well, Writer's father's name is King, his middle name is Arthur. So here we are in a castle and the tourists are walking around and we're going King, King Arthur. And of course everybody thought they're they're just putting us on, but we were really looking for King. It was true.

00:59:53
Speaker 1: Well, Judy, I have one last question for you. You mentioned you are now retired after forty five years of running your very own agency, which was a premier destination for kids hoping to make their dreams come true, and you helped make so many of those kids dreams of reality. What would you say, looking back is the thing you are most proud of my.

01:00:16
Speaker 6: Own three children and what they've done and what they've become. Oh, I'm I'm just proud of my whole life and all of the children I knew, and all the connections I have had and still have with my ex clients and getting to know about them, their weddings and their children and everything about them. I love you, guys, We love you.

01:00:46
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here and spending your very valuable time with us. It was so great to see your face and really a pleasure to have you. We hope to see you soon. By Judy, absolutely, Oh, I got so emotional. She said her own three children, and I was like, imagine imagined having that kind of I mean, there are teachers, of course who know that feeling so well, but in the entertainment we have teachers in the entertainment industry. But you know, imagine the amount of lives she positively impacted doing what she did. And I think of every other agent I've ever had, and other than my current manager, Stan, who I also have a very good relationship with, personally, I have never had an agent that made me feel as like she was a member of it. She was truly the head of a team that was there to protect me. Yes, never have I had that, Yeah, No.

01:01:45
Speaker 2: And also personal understanding, like you know, it's it's such a rare thing. And you know, when you think about it, actors are vulnerable, but children are the most vulnerable, and you need somebody to stand up for you. And hopefully that person isn't just a business person, because they're just about business, they're not going to have the heart. And so she was the perfect combination. And you know, she was so tough in the business side of things, but she also just understood us as humans and families and cared most about that. And that's you know, that's something that's really hard, especially in the corporate agent. You know, agencies are so huge and so powerful these days.

01:02:24
Speaker 3: I don't know what it's really like for kids.

01:02:26
Speaker 2: It's got to be difficult.

01:02:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it was great to see her. Thank you all for joining us for this episode of Pod Meets World. As always, you can follow us on Instagram pod meets World Show. You can send us your emails pod meets World Show at gmail dot com. And we have merch I'm still here, merch will It was just quiet for most of that, I just.

01:02:48
Speaker 4: Wanted to I don't know Judy, and I wanted to hear you know, you guys have such a relationship with her, and it was just nice to sit back and be entertained.

01:02:56
Speaker 1: She's also such a great storyteller.

01:02:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm and she's sharp.

01:03:00
Speaker 1: As attack Nash. I hope I have even a fraction of that. You don't have that now, I know you're right. Thank you, will, I love you, writer, send us out.

01:03:10
Speaker 3: We love you all. Pod dismissed.

01:03:13
Speaker 2: Podmeats World is an iHeart podcast producer hosted by Danielle Fischel, Wilfridell and Ryder Strong. Executive producers Jensen Karp and Amy Sugarman. Executive in charge of production, Danielle Romo, producer and editor, Tarasubasch, producer, Maddi Moore, engineer and boy Mets World Superman Easton All. Our theme song is by Kyle Morton of Typhoon. Follow us on Instagram at Podmeats World Show or email us at Podmeats World Show at gmail dot com.