267 | Think You're an Independent Contractor? You Might Not Be. Know the Difference Between Independent Contractor Vs. Employee Categorization

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi,

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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

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a master class in child-centered play therapy

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and practical support and application for your

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work with children and their families.

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In today's episode,

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we are doing

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what I'd like to call a palate cleanse,

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I guess.

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So,

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We finished our neutrality series

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and before we transition into a new topic,

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I wanted to do kind of just a one-off curriculum

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and this is birthed out of many,

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many conversations I've had

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specifically very recently,

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but even in the last,

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let's say 3 to 6 months,

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about the distinction

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between

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subcontractor and employee

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when you're working for someone else as a play therapist.

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So if you are an employee,

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if you are a subcontractor,

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if you are an employer of either employees or subcontractors,

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this podcast is for you.

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I have so many

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coaching participants and collective members bringing up the varying degrees of

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work responsibilities and what that looks like and

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I'm an employee and I'm a subcontractor,

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but

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the eyes of those distinctions are very clear by law.

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And I'll share a couple stories with you,

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and then we'll dive into

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what you need to know,

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all things related to the classification as a play therapist

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of subcontractor versus employee.

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However,

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before we do,

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I

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just graduated a whole another round,

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so two cohorts of my six-figure coaching program,

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and I just wanted to say I'm so excited for them and

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so encouraged by the confidence and the competence and

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the articulation,

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the growth,

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just everything.

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We,

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we kind of celebrated the whole year together and

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just

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really incredible to see the transformations that have taken place.

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So,

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little shout out to my newly graduated people.

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And also,

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thank you for those of you who have been

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signing up for the Mississippi podcast meet up.

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If you are going to be at the conference or can drive to Oxford,

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Mississippi,

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please make sure that you click on the link in the show notes to sign up for the RSVP.

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Well,

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you are RSVPing for the meetup.

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OK,

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so let's dive into

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the idea of subcontractor versus employee,

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and let me share a really quick story that I that I think will illustrate

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the significance of this.

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Because in our industry I think it's pretty common

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practice to have the lines really severely blurred,

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but the lines are very,

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very clearly defined in the legal arena.

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So let me share a quick story.

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I used to have exclusively

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subcontractors at my practice,

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so all of my therapists were subcontractors ran their own businesses,

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and they just worked

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in my center and served my waitlist and my clients.

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I reached out to an employment lawyer and said I'd like to

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have you draft some employment agreements as I bring on more subcontractors,

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and he refused

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to take the job,

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which that was very interesting to me because

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I'm like,

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you are in fact an employment lawyer,

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this is what you specialize in and I'm wanting to pay you for your services.

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Why are you turning me away?

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And he said,

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I'm not going to risk my license on that.

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I'm not gonna touch that with a 10 ft pole.

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You need to find someone else.

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And when I dug deeper,

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I actually ended up working with a different attorney because he legit blew me off,

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and he ended up,

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the new attorney ended up telling me.

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That we have a reputation in the mental health industry

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in legal circles

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for

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basically breaking the law all the time,

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and

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they associate the mental health space with

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the most consistent.

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In the eyes of the law,

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breaking the rules for employee versus subcontractor agreements.

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So I did

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some pretty deep conversations with him and I did some research myself.

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So if you are thinking about bringing on

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therapists to work under you,

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if you are actively employing

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therapists to work under you and or if you

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are working under someone as an employee or subcontractor,

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there are some really important things that you need to know

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and this is really kind of more of a public service.

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Kind of episode,

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but

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I think this will affect so many of you that I'm probably gonna get a lot of feedback.

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That's what I'm anticipating anyway.

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So here's

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the breakdown.

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If you are a subcontractor,

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you have to run your own business,

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and you have to operate completely independently

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of anyone

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who is employing you.

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So you have to think of this as a general contractor building a house.

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So the homeowner

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secures the contract with the general contractor

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and says,

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you know,

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I choose this house,

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this square footage,

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this many bedrooms,

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this many bathrooms,

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these fixtures,

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this granite for the countertops,

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whatever.

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So the home buyer is in contracted agreement with the general contractor.

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But the general contractor does not do all of the components of the house.

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The general contractor

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uses an electrician

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to do the electrical,

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uh,

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plumber to do the plumbing.

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An air conditioning contractor to do the HVAC,

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a roofer to do the roof.

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A person who specializes in foundations to pour the concrete.

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OK,

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so you can see that although the general contractor

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is in

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a contract with the home buyer.

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The GC is going to sublet subcontract

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all of the work

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to contractors.

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So think about this,

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let's take this analogy a little bit further.

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The general contractor does not tell

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the plumber

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how to do their job.

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The plumber has to

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install the plumbing that's appropriate for the house,

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so the plumber's going to be under contractual obligation

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to put in a certain number of toilets and

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a certain number of showers and a certain number of

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pipes to connect everything together,

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etc.

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but as long as the agreed upon terms are met,

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the general contractor does not provide any tools to the plumber,

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the general contractor does not supervise the plumber.

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The general contractor does not tell the plumber when

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it has to work.

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In other words,

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you have to work from 8 to 5 Monday through Friday.

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There's really no little to no oversight.

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The general contractor says,

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you have a plumbing business.

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I'm hiring you to

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do this according to our contract.

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You get the plumbing done and

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I don't need to worry about you.

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So,

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the,

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the analogy I always use to take this further is,

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if the plumber wants to show up at 2 a.m.

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drunk in a pink tutu.

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To do the plumbing on the house,

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that is the plumber's prerogative because as a subcontractor,

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the GC cannot say

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you have to show up at this hour wearing this outfit

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and not drunk.

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Now,

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if,

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if the drunkenness impacts the final product and it's not to code or something,

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OK,

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then we have another discussion.

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But

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the point is,

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2 a.m. drunk in a pink tutu,

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if the plumber does the job according to the contract,

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the general contractor has nothing to say about it.

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So,

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now let's go back to our industry.

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What's happening is

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that we are being told

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that we are subcontractors.

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So we're being hired

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and we're signing agreements

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that we are subcontractors in someone else's practice.

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But then we're being told the hours we have to work,

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the number of clients we have to see,

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we're being supervised and told we have to provide XYZ intervention

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or we have to

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conduct our sessions in this way,

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then

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we are given

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paper and pen

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and playrooms

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and printers

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and staples and Sharpies and file folders and computers and you name it.

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With which to do our job.

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And this is why the attorneys don't want anything to do with it.

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This is why the attorney turned me away,

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because that means that you're an employee.

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An independent contractor has to function completely independently.

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They have to provide all of their own tools.

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You cannot even use a pen.

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At the place that you work.

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If you are an independent contractor,

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you have to bring your own.

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You can't sit in

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someone else's

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desk chair that was provided.

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You have to provide your own desk chair.

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You have to outfit your entire playroom.

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Everything in the playroom has to be purchased by you.

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As an independent contractor,

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you are completely responsible to do your job and to

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have all the tools with which to do your job,

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and no one can give you oversight.

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They can't tell you what to wear,

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when to show up,

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what to do,

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how to do it.

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They can't force you to use any of their forms.

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They can't

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have any supervision over you.

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And I know a lot of you are reeling right now.

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This is why I'm doing this episode.

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Because you're going,

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oh my gosh,

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I was hired as an independent contractor and I am not being treated as one,

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right?

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And that's why the lawyers are having a field day,

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and that's why

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The

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attorneys are seeking

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audits of mental health agencies and practices all the time

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because they're busting people left and right.

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So

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now in contrast,

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as an employee.

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You

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can be completely governed and everything is provided for you.

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You can be supervised,

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you can be told what to do,

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when to do it,

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how to do it.

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That's all under an employment contract as an employee.

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So if you are currently

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Having people work under you

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as a practice owner or as an employer.

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You need to make sure

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that you are not doing employment fraud.

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Because what is happening is we are bringing on people

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that we are paying

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as independent contractors,

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but treating them as employees.

278
00:10:33,690 --> 00:10:36,109
And here's another related aside,

279
00:10:36,719 --> 00:10:37,000
many,

280
00:10:37,140 --> 00:10:37,549
many,

281
00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:38,599
like dozens,

282
00:10:38,799 --> 00:10:42,200
maybe hundreds of therapists have had conversations with me.

283
00:10:43,409 --> 00:10:44,190
About

284
00:10:44,590 --> 00:10:46,789
what to do regarding.

285
00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,030
I was told this was going to be my position.

286
00:10:50,070 --> 00:10:51,979
I was told this was going to be my role.

287
00:10:52,150 --> 00:10:54,250
I was hired to work this many hours.

288
00:10:54,270 --> 00:10:56,359
I was hired to see this many clients.

289
00:10:56,510 --> 00:10:57,429
I was

290
00:10:57,789 --> 00:10:59,340
given the impression that,

291
00:10:59,710 --> 00:11:02,030
and when I ask clarifying questions,

292
00:11:02,070 --> 00:11:03,619
it all comes back to,

293
00:11:03,950 --> 00:11:04,059
no,

294
00:11:04,150 --> 00:11:05,460
there was never a contract.

295
00:11:06,309 --> 00:11:06,469
No,

296
00:11:06,530 --> 00:11:08,539
there was never anything formal written up.

297
00:11:08,909 --> 00:11:09,030
No,

298
00:11:09,109 --> 00:11:10,359
I never signed anything.

299
00:11:10,469 --> 00:11:12,349
This was all just verbally discussed.

300
00:11:13,270 --> 00:11:13,789
Yikes,

301
00:11:13,830 --> 00:11:14,200
y'all,

302
00:11:14,349 --> 00:11:17,659
this is why we need business training to do this job.

303
00:11:18,950 --> 00:11:21,619
No one in the business industry would ever,

304
00:11:21,669 --> 00:11:21,940
ever,

305
00:11:21,989 --> 00:11:22,580
ever.

306
00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,549
Emphatically stated multiple times for a reason,

307
00:11:26,989 --> 00:11:28,280
would never.

308
00:11:29,250 --> 00:11:33,349
Do anything related to a job without a contract

309
00:11:33,349 --> 00:11:37,119
or an agreement or something signed stating expectations,

310
00:11:37,159 --> 00:11:38,039
responsibilities,

311
00:11:38,159 --> 00:11:38,770
duties,

312
00:11:38,799 --> 00:11:39,429
all of it,

313
00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:41,760
and we do it all the time.

314
00:11:42,119 --> 00:11:42,309
Oh,

315
00:11:42,359 --> 00:11:42,520
I mean,

316
00:11:42,599 --> 00:11:42,820
I,

317
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:43,750
I trust her.

318
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:44,789
I trust him.

319
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,869
It we it was a handshake kind of thing.

320
00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:48,510
We just talked about it,

321
00:11:48,659 --> 00:11:49,059
we just,

322
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:50,570
yikes.

323
00:11:51,409 --> 00:11:53,659
So not only are we not

324
00:11:53,849 --> 00:11:54,669
adhering

325
00:11:54,849 --> 00:11:58,450
to employment guidelines for what constitutes

326
00:11:58,450 --> 00:12:00,400
an employee versus a subcontractor,

327
00:12:01,010 --> 00:12:03,299
we are also not getting anything in writing,

328
00:12:04,010 --> 00:12:07,960
we're not having any kind of agreements or contracts that are formally drawn up,

329
00:12:08,409 --> 00:12:09,440
and if they are,

330
00:12:09,690 --> 00:12:13,210
they were like handwritten and they got off Legal Zoom

331
00:12:13,210 --> 00:12:16,440
and modified something and think that that's gonna work.

332
00:12:17,299 --> 00:12:19,929
There are legal loopholes over every single bit

333
00:12:19,929 --> 00:12:22,010
of everything that was drafted like that.

334
00:12:23,239 --> 00:12:25,549
A lawyer needs to craft

335
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,109
an employment agreement.

336
00:12:27,229 --> 00:12:29,520
Whether you're an independent contractor or an employee,

337
00:12:29,570 --> 00:12:30,330
it doesn't matter.

338
00:12:31,349 --> 00:12:34,570
You need to have a lawyer involved in the

339
00:12:34,570 --> 00:12:37,530
construction of the agreement to protect both sides.

340
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,010
The employer needs protection,

341
00:12:40,070 --> 00:12:41,599
the employee needs protection.

342
00:12:41,770 --> 00:12:43,119
It needs to be very clear.

343
00:12:43,330 --> 00:12:44,359
It needs to be

344
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:45,770
very.

345
00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:48,260
Legally well written.

346
00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:51,780
And it needs to be ironclad.

347
00:12:51,869 --> 00:12:52,159
Why?

348
00:12:52,409 --> 00:12:55,340
Because inevitably you want to know how many conversations I've had

349
00:12:56,070 --> 00:12:57,729
specifically with coaching participants

350
00:12:58,030 --> 00:12:58,659
that have said,

351
00:12:58,969 --> 00:12:59,190
yeah,

352
00:12:59,270 --> 00:13:00,619
and now out of the blue,

353
00:13:00,750 --> 00:13:02,510
my boss is saying that

354
00:13:02,950 --> 00:13:04,780
I have to take PTO

355
00:13:05,109 --> 00:13:08,340
time if I don't meet a certain number of clients each week.

356
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:10,190
And I said,

357
00:13:10,309 --> 00:13:10,369
well,

358
00:13:10,469 --> 00:13:11,880
I'm wondering what

359
00:13:12,229 --> 00:13:13,619
that said in the contract.

360
00:13:13,830 --> 00:13:14,210
Oh no,

361
00:13:14,309 --> 00:13:15,309
it didn't say that.

362
00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:16,869
Well,

363
00:13:17,039 --> 00:13:18,840
why is that being enforced now?

364
00:13:18,919 --> 00:13:19,039
Well,

365
00:13:19,159 --> 00:13:19,630
I mean,

366
00:13:19,799 --> 00:13:20,119
I don't know,

367
00:13:20,219 --> 00:13:21,080
it's just out of the blue.

368
00:13:21,119 --> 00:13:21,840
My boss was like,

369
00:13:21,849 --> 00:13:21,919
well,

370
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:22,119
here,

371
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:23,429
this is what we're gonna do now.

372
00:13:23,799 --> 00:13:25,640
If you don't have a contract number one,

373
00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:27,400
and or you don't have a well-written,

374
00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:28,330
well constructed,

375
00:13:28,479 --> 00:13:29,150
clearly

376
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:30,789
drafted contract,

377
00:13:31,119 --> 00:13:32,469
you have nothing to fall back on.

378
00:13:33,830 --> 00:13:34,260
So,

379
00:13:35,020 --> 00:13:36,200
Food for thought,

380
00:13:36,489 --> 00:13:37,679
words to the wise.

381
00:13:38,650 --> 00:13:41,919
I really think that you all need to consider

382
00:13:42,409 --> 00:13:44,280
whether or not you've been classified,

383
00:13:44,650 --> 00:13:46,359
classified and categorized,

384
00:13:46,570 --> 00:13:46,809
wow,

385
00:13:46,929 --> 00:13:48,010
try to say those two,

386
00:13:48,450 --> 00:13:50,320
appropriately where you're working,

387
00:13:50,809 --> 00:13:53,400
and or if you have people working for you.

388
00:13:54,450 --> 00:13:56,929
Are you following employment guidelines?

389
00:13:57,650 --> 00:14:00,330
And are people actually being paid

390
00:14:00,739 --> 00:14:01,809
the way that they should be?

391
00:14:02,849 --> 00:14:05,849
And that was the first question that the lawyer asked me when I said,

392
00:14:05,929 --> 00:14:07,809
I want to bring on independent contractors.

393
00:14:07,890 --> 00:14:09,809
Can you draft me up an employment agreement?

394
00:14:09,929 --> 00:14:10,479
He was like,

395
00:14:11,260 --> 00:14:12,890
Are you gonna let them use your pens?

396
00:14:13,909 --> 00:14:14,719
And I was like,

397
00:14:14,830 --> 00:14:15,229
what?

398
00:14:15,849 --> 00:14:16,080
I mean,

399
00:14:16,119 --> 00:14:17,000
what a weird question,

400
00:14:17,039 --> 00:14:17,159
right?

401
00:14:17,260 --> 00:14:18,719
Like you're talking to an attorney and they're like,

402
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:19,020
he goes,

403
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:20,599
are you gonna let them use your pens?

404
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:22,070
And I said,

405
00:14:22,479 --> 00:14:22,789
no,

406
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,030
they provide their own pens normally.

407
00:14:25,239 --> 00:14:25,400
I mean,

408
00:14:25,479 --> 00:14:26,409
I guess if someone said,

409
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:27,359
Can I borrow one,

410
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:28,070
I might say yes.

411
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:28,520
And he was like,

412
00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:28,760
no,

413
00:14:28,890 --> 00:14:29,469
you're not.

414
00:14:30,119 --> 00:14:33,150
You cannot provide them anything to do their job.

415
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:35,130
And I mean,

416
00:14:35,169 --> 00:14:36,359
it's that clear.

417
00:14:36,729 --> 00:14:37,530
And here's what happens.

418
00:14:37,609 --> 00:14:37,630
You,

419
00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,080
you have someone come in from

420
00:14:40,530 --> 00:14:42,260
the department to audit,

421
00:14:42,690 --> 00:14:44,359
and that's the first thing they're going to ask,

422
00:14:44,690 --> 00:14:46,770
what does your employer provide you with?

423
00:14:47,609 --> 00:14:48,799
To do your job.

424
00:14:49,250 --> 00:14:51,599
And if you are hired as an independent contractor,

425
00:14:51,719 --> 00:14:54,880
and the only answer you can give is nothing.

426
00:14:55,770 --> 00:14:57,059
To have that not

427
00:14:57,530 --> 00:14:58,489
go really south,

428
00:14:58,570 --> 00:14:59,239
really fast.

429
00:15:00,919 --> 00:15:01,890
So,

430
00:15:01,929 --> 00:15:03,130
just wanted to make you aware,

431
00:15:03,210 --> 00:15:04,440
it's my little

432
00:15:04,890 --> 00:15:06,280
public service announcement,

433
00:15:06,409 --> 00:15:07,960
my duty to inform.

434
00:15:08,859 --> 00:15:12,099
I think we really need to evaluate what we're doing as an

435
00:15:12,099 --> 00:15:15,640
industry because we're already getting a pretty bad rap in the legal world

436
00:15:15,890 --> 00:15:16,859
and it's just it's,

437
00:15:16,929 --> 00:15:17,090
I mean,

438
00:15:17,210 --> 00:15:18,469
deservedly a bad rap,

439
00:15:18,530 --> 00:15:19,280
quite honestly,

440
00:15:19,729 --> 00:15:22,239
because I hear it and see it all the time.

441
00:15:23,070 --> 00:15:24,309
So just be mindful,

442
00:15:24,429 --> 00:15:25,260
be careful,

443
00:15:25,469 --> 00:15:26,609
get stuff in writing,

444
00:15:26,789 --> 00:15:28,869
have lawyers draw up your contracts,

445
00:15:29,030 --> 00:15:31,820
make sure that you are using wisdom

446
00:15:32,130 --> 00:15:32,880
and

447
00:15:33,590 --> 00:15:34,229
thought

448
00:15:34,590 --> 00:15:36,869
in the things that you're doing when you're getting hired.

449
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:37,340
And look,

450
00:15:37,429 --> 00:15:39,789
if you're in a situation where you now know,

451
00:15:39,869 --> 00:15:40,510
oh my goodness,

452
00:15:40,630 --> 00:15:41,590
I am not,

453
00:15:41,789 --> 00:15:42,719
I'm not being

454
00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:44,340
categorized appropriately.

455
00:15:44,590 --> 00:15:47,429
I am 100% an employee based on these guidelines,

456
00:15:47,469 --> 00:15:48,119
but I'm

457
00:15:48,369 --> 00:15:48,659
You know,

458
00:15:48,940 --> 00:15:50,890
on the books as an independent contractor,

459
00:15:51,260 --> 00:15:55,210
you need to have a conversation with your boss or the owner or whoever is in charge.

460
00:15:55,659 --> 00:15:56,570
And if you are going,

461
00:15:56,659 --> 00:15:57,270
oh my goodness,

462
00:15:57,380 --> 00:16:00,340
I'm on like a handshake and a wink kind of deal where I

463
00:16:00,340 --> 00:16:03,169
work and I have nothing in writing and I have no contract.

464
00:16:04,020 --> 00:16:05,750
You need to have a conversation.

465
00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:07,330
You'd say,

466
00:16:07,539 --> 00:16:08,809
so I've been made aware of some things,

467
00:16:08,859 --> 00:16:10,929
I've been learning a lot about employment law,

468
00:16:11,619 --> 00:16:12,260
and

469
00:16:12,619 --> 00:16:15,169
I would really like to have a contract drawn up,

470
00:16:15,580 --> 00:16:20,659
or I would really like to be re-categorized because I'm technically an employee.

471
00:16:21,479 --> 00:16:22,429
And

472
00:16:22,630 --> 00:16:25,229
these are maybe potentially difficult conversations,

473
00:16:25,309 --> 00:16:26,549
but they're necessary ones.

474
00:16:27,719 --> 00:16:29,380
So I hope that that encourages you,

475
00:16:29,479 --> 00:16:30,039
supports you,

476
00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:32,390
and will help you in your work because

477
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:33,270
we,

478
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:34,320
we need to make sure that we're

479
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,710
doing things legally and ethically and appropriately

480
00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:38,789
and sometimes

481
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,330
that's not our responsibility when it starts,

482
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,849
but it's our responsibility once we're made aware of

483
00:16:43,849 --> 00:16:45,830
something that is the way that it shouldn't be.

484
00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:47,270
All right,

485
00:16:47,429 --> 00:16:49,020
so palate cleanse episode,

486
00:16:49,109 --> 00:16:49,669
there you go,

487
00:16:49,750 --> 00:16:50,140
just

488
00:16:50,390 --> 00:16:50,900
little

489
00:16:51,270 --> 00:16:52,700
off the beaten path topic,

490
00:16:53,070 --> 00:16:55,820
and we will move into a new series next time.

491
00:16:55,989 --> 00:16:59,119
So this was just a a one and done kind of episode

492
00:16:59,510 --> 00:17:01,150
and I would love to hear from you if you'd

493
00:17:01,150 --> 00:17:03,650
like to reach out brenna@thekidcounselor.com.

494
00:17:04,030 --> 00:17:04,319
Oh,

495
00:17:04,510 --> 00:17:06,900
really quickly before we wrap up.

496
00:17:07,750 --> 00:17:10,380
Thank you to each and every one of you

497
00:17:10,868 --> 00:17:14,150
who has reached out to me and I have passed that on to Lee.

498
00:17:15,150 --> 00:17:16,770
For how

499
00:17:17,108 --> 00:17:17,618
that

500
00:17:17,910 --> 00:17:20,420
final neutrality episode and the

501
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:21,189
write-up

502
00:17:21,630 --> 00:17:24,339
that Lee provided to us and let me read

503
00:17:24,829 --> 00:17:26,310
how that has impacted you.

504
00:17:26,569 --> 00:17:29,189
So many of you have asked if you can print it and

505
00:17:29,189 --> 00:17:32,180
frame it or hang it up somewhere or read it to yourself.

506
00:17:32,579 --> 00:17:33,510
Lee has graciously.

507
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,199
said absolutely yes.

508
00:17:35,449 --> 00:17:38,849
And I just wanted to say thank you for the feedback that you've given.

509
00:17:38,910 --> 00:17:40,479
I've passed it along to her.

510
00:17:41,010 --> 00:17:41,709
She is

511
00:17:42,050 --> 00:17:43,209
flabbergasted

512
00:17:43,530 --> 00:17:46,020
by the response and did not expect

513
00:17:46,329 --> 00:17:50,000
to have that shared and did not expect to have it have the impact that it has.

514
00:17:50,050 --> 00:17:50,410
So

515
00:17:51,030 --> 00:17:53,550
Huge thank you to each and every one of you for letting

516
00:17:53,550 --> 00:17:57,300
me know that that was so meaningful and that that really has just

517
00:17:57,550 --> 00:18:01,060
wrapped up the neutrality series for you in a really special way as it did for me.

518
00:18:01,189 --> 00:18:03,180
So I appreciate all of you letting me know that,

519
00:18:03,189 --> 00:18:04,339
and I promise I've,

520
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:06,349
I've given credit where credit's due and I've

521
00:18:06,349 --> 00:18:08,400
passed along all of your appreciation and,

522
00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:10,260
and the impact that it's had.

523
00:18:10,829 --> 00:18:11,069
All right,

524
00:18:11,150 --> 00:18:11,510
love y'all.

525
00:18:11,589 --> 00:18:12,469
We'll talk again soon.

526
00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:12,829
Bye.

527
00:18:13,969 --> 00:18:16,729
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.

528
00:18:16,890 --> 00:18:17,890
Brenna Hicks.

529
00:18:18,010 --> 00:18:20,000
For more episodes and resources,

530
00:18:20,089 --> 00:18:24,829
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.