One Journey to Motherhood with Rebecca Thompson EP 435

00:00:09
Speaker 1: Hi.

00:00:09
Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker.

00:00:15
Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, and course creator. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families.

00:00:24
Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long.

00:00:33
Speaker 1: Term career goals.

00:00:34
Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life.

00:00:41
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.

00:00:43
Speaker 2: This episode is airing in early December of twenty twenty five. I am going to be interviewing doctor Rebecca Thompson, who is the author of the new book Held Together, which is about the complicated journey to motherhood both for her and or a number of other women. In her journey to motherhood, she had several miscarriages that involved life threatening complications, including an a topic pregnancy. She has two kids now, wonderfully we're happy about that, so we're thrilled that work out. But her experiences really helped inform her work both with women and children as a physician, and she's going to talk a lot about that. And how her personal experience formed her clinical experience. But I know many people listening to this, I mean, so slight trigger warning here of topics of fertility.

00:01:35
Speaker 1: Are complicated for you. We are not offended.

00:01:39
Speaker 2: If you want to skip this episode entirely, we'll be back next week with something a little bit lighter. But many people's journeys to having their families are more complicated, or at least not as set plans as you might think, right, I mean, I'm curious, Sarah, when you were younger, did you have thoughts of like when you would have your children, or how many children you would have, or things like that.

00:02:05
Speaker 3: When I was much younger, like before med school, I honestly hadn't given any concrete thought as to where having a baby would fit in my training. I almost felt like, well, I'm not supposed to think about that. That's like an anti feminist line of thought. I should just do my job and like everything will happen. However, I met Josh when I was in the very beginning of med school, and we were married like.

00:02:25
Speaker 1: At the end of med school.

00:02:26
Speaker 3: So two thousand and six was our wedding. I had one more year of med school after that, and we'd been together since two thousand and two, and he is six years older than me. So by the end of my late twenties, I was like, I want three kids. I want to get pregnant, let's go. I'm ready to go. And then, I mean, I've told the story on this podcast before, but that did not go as quickly as I imagined. You know, it was funny because I don't know, I just remember all the residents around me getting pregnant, like the pediatrics. Residents were like the most vital bunch, including my friend who like accidentally got pregnant before her wedding while I was trying so hard to get pregnant. It was a lot. But yeah, I think I wanted my kids younger than I ended up having them. Obviously, it ended up working out amazingly for me. But yeah, when I first kind of laid into it, I thought it would be super straightforward and that maybe i'd be like done having kids by fellowship and I'd have three and it would be great.

00:03:23
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I mean, and it could be hard to I'm trying to remember. I don't even remember if I'd had a number in mind. I don't believe that my ideal planning it out was five spread out over twelve years. I don't think that was the grand life plan, although I am happy with it as it is now. The life goes in the way it goes. But of course the issue with this is that people like to plan, and we need to think about life plans and making sort of longer term plans. And yet when you are trying to have a family, that could be complicated to do.

00:04:03
Speaker 1: Sarah right, like, I mean, did you were.

00:04:05
Speaker 2: You thinking about going into your residency with that in mind, like the timing of when you would have your baby, but then that could move or things like that.

00:04:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I want to correct what I said. I said something like I wanted to have them all done by fellowship. I meant by the end of fellowship. So I was like, oh, I'll have one in the middle of residency, and then I'll have one the beginning of fellowship and one at the end of fellowship, and great, I'll have the I also had my mind that like I had to have them before thirty five or they'd come out wrong, which was like not medically correct at all and ridiculous. And I also had Genevieve at thirty seven and it was great, but no, I didn't like I guess. Okay, So our residency program had this thing called the Newborn Elective that was actually launched while I was in residency and may have been responsible for some of the baby boom because it was basically an extra month of maternity leave. And I was like, this is amazing, Oh my gosh, It's a free month to spend with your baby, and I'll get residency credit for that and I won't have to take like a super abbreviated lead. I can take like that full twelve weeks and maybe even graduate on time. But then I couldn't get pregnant dury residency, like never got to use that newborn month. My fellowship did not come with a newborn month. But anyway, it all worked out, So I guess yes and no.

00:05:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you have to live your life.

00:05:17
Speaker 2: And I think in general, we feel like, you know, make your plans, and if you have to change them, you will. But in many cases, you don't want to not do things because you might have a baby at a certain time in the future, because you know, if you do, great and everyone will adjust and they will figure it out. Whereas it's sort of when things don't happen, not having those plans to look forward to it can be challenging. Anyway, we will hear what Rebecca has to say about all this. Well, Sarah and I are delighted to welcome doctor Rebecca Thompson to the show. So, Rebecca, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Oh?

00:05:57
Speaker 4: Well, thanks so much for this opportunity. I've really been looking forward to talking you well. I am a family medicine and public health physician in Portland, Oregon, and I've always loved to write, and whatever field I find myself in over the years, whatever I study, I always gravitate toward the storytelling parts of it. So this book is really the culmination of that. And I would say, you know, in terms of the background of how it came together, when I was just finishing up my training and starting out on that first attending level job, that first beyond training job, I went through a really dramatic string of pregnancy complications. It was so isolating, even as a person with a really fantastic support system and wonderful partner and friends, Even as a physician who understood the system, I was used to being the person who would help others and navigate the system with them for them, you know, advocating for them. And I even had a professional network. But in spite of all that, when I became a patient, I felt like I just didn't know where to start. I didn't know how to make sense of what was happening to me.

00:07:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, your journey to motherhood was, in fact incredibly complicated. Maybe you can tell our listeners a little bit about that.

00:07:28
Speaker 4: Yeah, so when we decided to start thinking about having a family, we initially wanted to try to have biological kids, and we figured as I was finishing training, was a good time logistically to think about that in professional life and balancing all the things. But really my perspective changed really quickly on how family life and professional life could intersect in this way, because it didn't just happen simply for us. And more to the point, I feel like because it was so isolating and I didn't really know how to explain what was going on, Things kept happening so quickly, complications were mounting so steadily that what was really notable is that other women when I did give the littlest glimpse into what was happening to us. Other women started sharing their own stories too, And the biggest part of this all is that, even toward the beginning of the complications, which included three losses, two of them life threatening to me, and then just a whole host of other things going forward, I really felt like I wanted to find a way to preserve what we were learning by sharing these stories with each other and really to create something useful out of it, making meaning. This idea, I know this resonates with your work too, And this is the pivotal point of hell together is how do we make meaning? Not to accept that everything has a meaning and everything happens for a reason, nope, rejecting that, How can we take our experiences and let them find ways to help define us and our missions and our professional and personal lives, And so feeling like this was such a privilege as a doctor to have these stories that for people to be willing to share them with me. How could I translate this into something that could serve a greater purpose beyond my own family's challenging path to parenthood.

00:09:35
Speaker 1: Which was very challenging.

00:09:37
Speaker 2: I mean, just to tell our listeners, you know, I know you had at least one EC topic pregnancy yep, and you maybe can tell people who are maybe not familiar medically that's life threatening.

00:09:49
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is. It's one of the leading causes of maternal mortality, and certainly in places where there's less access to medical care than we typically have in most parts of the US, very very dangerous. Started out with sort of an ordinary miscarriage quickly into the next pregnancy being an X topic, which is a situation when the embryo implants outside of where it should be so it should the egg comes from the ovary, is fertilized in the tube, the Filippian tube, travels to the uterus and implants in the uterus if all goes as planned. If not, the most commonplace it can get stuck is essentially in the Filippian tube. It can also implant on the ovary or at the wrong edge of the uterus, like along the cervix, or even float out into the abdominal cavity. Because the ovary the Filippian tube they communicate with a space between them actually, so it can even end up in the abdomen. But for me, it was sort of the most usual kind of EC topic, which is in the tube, and it's so risky because as that embryo grows, the tube is very tiny. It can't expand as the uterus does, so that larger and larger mass of cells, if you will, is putting pressure on the tube and ultimately can cause it to rupture, which can cause life threatening bleeding. And many women around the world do die of this.

00:11:09
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:11:09
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it must have been so scary to go through. And then but you're having this string of bad luck. I mean, you said you have a normal miscarriage, then you have an EC topic pregnancy, but then even the next one is what you call a molar pregnancy.

00:11:20
Speaker 4: I believe, yes, yes, And even for the EC topic, the ordinary stuff didn't work. I'm giving all the spoilers here, but I think you know it's still different to read it and walk through it with each of us and the stories that we go through. We tried the ordinary measures, the medications, the things that are supposed to help the EC topic resolve on its own, and I still ended up in urgent almost emergency, pretty urgent surgery. In spite of trying all the things that work for you know, ninety five plus percent of people in my situation, nothing went to plan. Even the complicated parts were unusually complicated. And then yeah, the third pregnancy was what's called a molar pregnancy, kind of one of the most feared complications because it's not well understood and there are a few different varieties of molar pregnancy and that might be beyond the scope of this, but essentially, the placenta doesn't develop in the typical way and so it can become invasive. The placenta is normally an organ that you want to you know, lock in well to the uterism, provide nourishment to the baby and blood float like. This is all it's part of the system with the bbilical cord. This is all great, but essentially this goes unchecked in a way in a molar pregnancy. And this can be because of a genetic difference in the embryo or some things. We're not always really sure why it happens, and so essentially this is a pregnancy that is not going to create a living child, and furthermore, can become cancerous and metastasize into a form called a malignant correo carcinoma, So you can't get pregnant again for a while after intensive monitor so you go from if you're intentionally trying to have a biological kid, you're trying, you're trying, you're trying, and then all of a sudden you have to flip everything and being incredibly careful to not get pregnant for many months, to be monitored and make sure that those hormones are dropping as they should. It inverts all your expectations and hopes.

00:13:20
Speaker 2: And this is such a difficult journey. I mean going through that. You know, you're trying three times and then you know it goes. Now you're trying with one fallopian tube, right right, But then I mean you for I mean not to spoil things too much for our listeners, but you do have two children and I do.

00:13:39
Speaker 4: Well you know that from reading the author Bioye's So can you spoil that?

00:13:44
Speaker 1: The courage to keep trying after all.

00:13:46
Speaker 4: That it was hard? Oh, you know, And I want to say one of the most hopeful things that I learned that I was really surprised by. Yes, I lost a two in an ovary because of the ectopic rupture and the failed medical treatment, medical managem attempt, but I was as a physician something I didn't even know. It doesn't affect your fertility having one ovary and one tube because we don't alternate. They didn't teach us a medical school. You don't go back and forth between one over and the other. If you have two, it's just whichever egg is ready that month that cycle. So actually that didn't change anything about fertility, about my cycles. It's just that there's only one overy left to do the work.

00:14:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that.

00:14:28
Speaker 4: Was like incredibly I remember being told that, sitting in the exam room and worrying about I think what most women would think, now my chances are cut in half, and I remember the ob telling me, no, no, that you're fine, that part is fine. My mind was completely blown by that.

00:14:45
Speaker 1: It's amazing.

00:14:45
Speaker 4: It was the most hopeful thing I heard during the whole process.

00:14:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so happily, Yes, two children. Now we're going to take a quick ad break, and then we're going to come back and talk about sort of ways to talk with people going through this journey and then how this has informed your life since.

00:15:17
Speaker 1: Well, I am back.

00:15:18
Speaker 2: Talking with doctor Rebecca Thompson, who's been talking about her complicated journey to motherhood and her new book Held Together, where she shares her story, and that of many other women who have had complicated paths to motherhood as well. So you've learned, I'm sure a lot in the course of this process of you know, the ways people talk to a young married couple about when are you guys having kids yet?

00:15:46
Speaker 1: And stuff like that.

00:15:46
Speaker 2: Of course you're going through tragedy after tragedy, and the course of doing that, what have you learned about how people should mindfully talk with other people in their lives about this experience, it just.

00:15:57
Speaker 4: Taught me so much about how we never have any idea what other people are going through. You know, I thought I knew that. I did know that at some level. As a physician, I have always loved hearing people's stories. You know, I came at medicine from as an anthropology major in college. I've always loved life stories. I ended up in medicine kind of accidentally after the fact, with a post back night school kind of a situation, and so that's of course why I was drawn to primary care. You're trying to make sense of people's stories and help them make sense of their stories and what those say about their health. So, you know, I feel like we all walk around with these hidden held If you will stories that are not obvious on the surface, and if we're really lucky, we might get to hear those kinds of stories from some people that we intersect with whose paths we cross. But in medical professions and healing professions and service professions, I feel like we're in a uniquely privileged and power full place to advocate for listening more deeply well.

00:17:05
Speaker 1: And so this has informed your entire work, I mean, your experience.

00:17:09
Speaker 2: After you had these complicated you decided to change how you were going to train and the field you went into.

00:17:15
Speaker 4: I did. I was initially working more in public health and environmental public health, especially focusing on children's health, things like environmental cancer exposure. You know, how environmental exposures might lead to pediatric cancers. I just done a lot of research on that and how survivorship after childhood cancer affected people's lives and how to support them. And as I was going through this, and after going through this, I received some not great care where diagnoses were missed and things fell through the cracks that really shouldn't have that made the situations a lot worse than they even needed to be. But more importantly, I received some truly life saving care and you see that in the book with My Obstetricians specifically really embodies that. Devora. She and I met in the emergency room during the EC topic and she that was now almost twenty years ago, eighteen years ago, and she went on to be such an important person in my life, and I hope me and hers as well. Her story is woven in the book with mine, but at the very end, among these other twenty some women, twenty one women whose stories you learn, you see her story of how she came to be this incredible person who could care for me in the way that she would have wanted to be careful if the tables had been turned. So it was that kind of care that inspired me to give back myself and I ended up doing a second residency at that point in family medicine. Now I had to make that commitment. I had that opportunity arise right after the third loss, before I knew if we would be able to become at least biological parents, and knowing that if I act a residency, not only did that make it trickier fertility wise, and like just if I could be pregnant, how that would be hard to manage as a busy working, pregnant person. But how I mean even pursuing adoption, pursuing foster parent, pursuing fertility treatments. That's really really hard on our resident schedule and salary and emotionally, it's incredibly difficult to commit to a program that I was seeking out because of its strength and maternity care and pediatrics, and I would be taking care of lots of families, attending a lot of deliveries. That's why I chose the program. But oh my gosh, it's just terrifying to think about what if I kept having all these complications or like what if I could never even get pregnant again? And how would we even figure it all out? Yeah?

00:19:56
Speaker 1: So very challenging.

00:19:58
Speaker 2: But I mean all of that, the schedule aspect of building a family, if it is not.

00:20:06
Speaker 1: Straightfward, even if it is right, like.

00:20:08
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, it's not sitting in any sitting.

00:20:11
Speaker 2: In prenatal care if you are a busy working person, and especially if you have irregular hours.

00:20:16
Speaker 1: I get a hospital absolutely.

00:20:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, how are you able to manage that with I mean all the medical care you went through?

00:20:22
Speaker 4: Yeah? Well initially, so I was a resident through a big chunk of it. And then I was kind of new faculty, very very junior faculty, so I got all of my care where I was working, and I would, yeah, I'd have to pop over for an hour for an appointment in between different meetings and things. It was really challenging, and interestingly because Devora, who I would have loved to have kept being an obstetrician through once we did end up pregnant and it was going better at that point for the fourth time and then the fifth. I would have wanted her to be my OBE, but she had graduated and she'd moved to into a private practice, so I couldn't follow her because and I talk about that, I really couldn't make time to go to her practice that was a couple of miles away in town. I had to stay with the university, which it worked out fine. It was great, and ultimately I was able to go back to her care once I finished my residency and could be more flexible in my setting my own clinic hours and such. But you sometimes are constrained in where you can see care based on the logistics too.

00:21:30
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:21:30
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and that's even in a big city.

00:21:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you were managing a residence schedule with a newborn, which what did your life look like through that?

00:21:39
Speaker 4: Well, I was either pregnant or breastfeeding for all but about ten ten and a half months of that three plus year residency, and I did, as most parents do, especially moms who have or adopt kids during residency, My graduation date shifted back those ten and ten weeks that I had taken off from maternity leave. So yeah, it was just really there was a lot of pumping during breaks in small rooms and behind curtains, and using weird fridges to store milk in and having my husband fortune enough fortunate to have a supportive partner. He would come by and bring our son and I could feed him or at least pass off the jar of milk. Just a really lot of logistical challenges that I think many many, many professional women and families face.

00:22:35
Speaker 1: Absolutely escalated, but we are familiar with that.

00:22:38
Speaker 2: Here, all right, We're going to take one more quick ad break and then I'll be back with more from Rebecca Thompson. Well, I am back talking with doctor Rebecca Thompson, who's been talking about her need to motherhood and then the many other stories she shares in her book Held Together. So I'm curious what your daily life looks like now, how you combine medical practice and then also your creative work as well well.

00:23:13
Speaker 4: That it's changed, and it changes constantly. It's changed so much over the years. It's gone through so many different evolutions. These days, I have two teenagers and the busy schedules that always entails. I have been fortunate to spend a good amount of my time in the last few months focusing on getting these stories out there, getting this book out there. It's been the most rewarding thing I've ever done Professionally. I love taking care of patients, but as I say in the introduction to this book, I feel like these stories, this book held together has become my practice of medicine, because while when I work clinically with any individual or even family, it's really rewarding to those interactions and that deep view and that deep impact on someone's life when you can, you know, in the best situations, But when I can gather these stories into something that has a greater meaning beyond just our individual experiences, I feel like it's that population level intervention where I can really have act and all of our stories can weave together to create this beautiful synergi justic hoal. So, while I still do keep a foot in the door clinically, and I do these days, most of what I've been doing, I was doing a bunch of tallemedicine even before the pandemic started, to get better access to people in more remote communities like out here in Oregon, we have a lot of more rural communities and people could at least call in and get advice about whether to drive an hour or two to the er or not. And then I do a bunch of work in the community of volunteering and working as a physician at community events like sporting events and things like that. To go back to my sort of wilderness and emergency medicine roots, which that's another story from before this wilderness.

00:25:06
Speaker 1: What does that mean to me?

00:25:09
Speaker 4: It's about being resourceful with whatever you have in the moment, which is also the perfect metaphor for this whole book.

00:25:15
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. So what is next for you?

00:25:18
Speaker 2: Like, I mean, are you going to return sort of to more regular clinical practice as time goes on.

00:25:23
Speaker 4: I don't feel like I'm ready to decide what's next beyond kind of what I'm doing in this immediate time, because everything about sharing these stories has been so incredible, I just want to focus on that and keep other options open. But my next goal, if you will, that ties into the clinical side of things as well as the writing side of things, is I think these stories are an incredible tool and resource for the next generation of healthcare professionals. So I've just started to really collaborate with some of the medical school's residency programs narrative medicine programs around the country and organize zoom events and if it's local, you know, some in person things out here in Oregon. And I really want to get these kinds of conversations going in all not just in physician communities, but physicians, nurses, jewelers, social workers, physical therapists, pharmacists. I mean, this just applies to so many field psychology and I've developed a really robust set of discussion guides that are great for that as well as for kind of book clubs and like regular people with an interest in medicine. So I feel like by getting these resources, connecting these resources to these learning communities, that's how I can really help shape and by I actually mean all the women in this book. Our stories can help share the kind of care that's given to people clinically and reach far beyond the impact that anyone story has.

00:27:09
Speaker 2: Excellent Well, Rebecca, as you know, since you're a best of both worlds listener.

00:27:14
Speaker 4: I am.

00:27:15
Speaker 1: We end each week with a love of the week.

00:27:18
Speaker 2: I can go first because this episode is airing in December and longtime listeners know I love my miniatures. I've created several miniature scenes in my office and I have now decorated some of them for Christmas. So I have a miniature Christmas tree, I have a miniature gingerbread house.

00:27:36
Speaker 1: So that's a.

00:27:37
Speaker 2: Fun way to kind of celebrate this season and look at that when I'm at my desk, and it brings me incredible joy to see that. How about you, what's your love of the week?

00:27:47
Speaker 3: Oh?

00:27:47
Speaker 4: That ties in because that's pretty seasonal. And I was going to say, you know, from my perspective out here in Oregon in the late fall kind of heading into the winter, I think I'd have to say that my love of the week is the changing seasons because we have so many any great parks and trails here. I love to walk and run in them, especially with my friends, and this is the time of year that I most love to do that because the changing colors are my favorite thing of the leaves and the trees. But I also just love it that it signals that cooler weather coming in. I don't like to exercise in the heat, but the cold actually makes me want to go out more so I can come back in and get cozy afterward too. And I think I just really appreciate all the visible reminders this time of year that life is change and growth and no season less forever.

00:28:34
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Oh, Rebecca, where can people find you?

00:28:37
Speaker 4: My website? Everything's at the website, so it's Rebecca and Thompson dot com and you'll find everything from a bunch you know, endorsements and reviews to all the podcasts and interviews and the discussion guides I mentioned, So I would love it if people check those out, especially think about how they could help join the conversation about all these ideas and make these difficult topics more accessible to people. And if anyone would like to order the book, it's a great place to do it through the website because there's a link that benefits Postpartum Support International doing Maternal and Family mental health work, which is a fantastic organization, So I'd love it if the proceeds go there. And you can also order signed copies from my own local books through out here and they can she be shipped anywhere.

00:29:22
Speaker 1: So excellent. Well please check that out, and Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us.

00:29:27
Speaker 4: Thank you, thanks so much.

00:29:30
Speaker 1: Well, that was great.

00:29:30
Speaker 2: Lots to think about with Rebecca and her story of how life informed her medical practice and more about her book Held Together. So, Sarah, this one was posted on my blog now that you are both book authors, because you, guys, Sarah's book is coming out very very soon. How does a book go from idea to finished copy? I would love to hear a few more details about it, So first Sarah tell us when it's out, and then you can talk about the step.

00:30:00
Speaker 1: A little bit.

00:30:01
Speaker 3: It comes out December sixteenth and it is available for pre order now.

00:30:05
Speaker 1: Yay. So how did it go from idea to finish product?

00:30:08
Speaker 3: For you? Yeah, it took a really really long time. I mean, I think it's like you can't. I don't feel like I love to plan things, but I did not plan how my book ended up coming to fruition. I never would have thought that I would have really benefited from actually taking my content from podcasts to course to book. I kind of thought, oh, I'll just write a book about planning, But I actually think the kind of slow evolution of like, oh, I have these ideas, and let me test out these ideas on actual people, like get really really comfortable with the ideas, and then turn it into a book was really actually worked out incredibly well for me. So I guess this is just to say, if you have an idea, I don't think there's anything wrong with like letting it marinate or doing some other book adjacent project first, because that might actually lead to a better book.

00:30:57
Speaker 1: I know it did for me. Yeah.

00:31:00
Speaker 2: And you your process is that you actually heard from a publisher that was interested in this.

00:31:05
Speaker 1: Correct.

00:31:06
Speaker 3: Yes, So Laura and I are different in this regard because I don't have an agent, and I basically got an email an editor who knew my stuff, and we met, you know, we had a meeting, and I just liked her so much, and I ended up deciding that even though I from a business perspective knew that perhaps like just going with someone who was offering to me might not be the you know, I don't know most savvy, I just really liked her, We connected, we clicked, and I felt like this relationship was one worth building. And I also felt like, you know what, I'm a first time author, like how much panash do I really carry at this point? And she seemed to really support me, and I can say at this point it was a fantastic decision because I really really enjoyed working with her. I've had positive experiences with source Books, who is with my publisher, and that is one way to go about things, but it is not the normal way, and you can't just like email an editor and send them stuff. The only way you can kind of go agent list is if an editor happens to be like, we've heard about your idea and we would like to hear from you. And then I crafted my book proposal. I did do a you know, a whole official proposal, sent it to them, had to wait for their whole team to review it. They do these meetings where they review all their proposals, and then I heard back from them with an offer.

00:32:24
Speaker 4: So that's how it worked for me, and so far, so good.

00:32:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they give you an advance and then you write the book, but it has to be done usually nine ten months ahead.

00:32:35
Speaker 1: Of publication, right, you were frantically right Twitter Tight. Yeah, it was like I had agreed.

00:32:42
Speaker 3: I think I got to the proposal in like August, and then I heard from them back in like September and October and she's like, okay, I need your draft by like February. And I'm like, oh my god, because like, not only was that only four months, there's Christmas break in there and thanksgin, like that is not And again I teach all these planning courses, so it's like my busy season as well, and I I will say that I would not like to do my next book on that short of a timeline, but it worked out.

00:33:08
Speaker 2: It worked out because for it to come out this December. That's kind of the way publishing goes. But what Sarah was saying of if you want to write a book, having a platform that people can see and see that you are an expert in something and that you have an audience is critical because it's rare that you get a book deal based on just like you know something, you also have to show that other people care about that thing yet you know, and that you have an audience that is available to buy the book.

00:33:42
Speaker 1: So her teaching these courses.

00:33:43
Speaker 2: They knew she had the material, they knew that people had paid for this material already. Obviously, she has her podcasts and has been doing those for a while, so people can see that if Sarah puts something out into the world, it won't be it won't be ignored. Nobody like, nobody noticing whatsoever. So yeah, yeah, I mean I've been doing this for a while. But when I did the first book, you know, I got an agent, had an idea, got an agent, wrote a proposal with the agent, and then shopped that around.

00:34:12
Speaker 1: Is either usual way to do this.

00:34:14
Speaker 2: However, even with mine, my first time management book, one hundred and sixty eight Hours, it was a bit of the other direction as well. I'd been shopping various proposals that were sort of tangential to that for a while, and I hadn't gotten a whole lot of traction. And then heard from an editor over at Penguin who had read some of my stuff just that I'd written, and wanted to know if I wanted to discuss book ideas, and I did so I came in with the material and we shaped that together into one hundred and sixty eight Hours. But then this past one I've got Big Time coming out in May, and for that I have a different agent now that I had found somebody who wanted to work with me, and then she and I.

00:34:56
Speaker 1: Crafted a full proposal.

00:34:58
Speaker 2: I mean it was like one hundred pages sample check after overview, full marketing ideas and everything. But the result of that is that we sent it around to many, many publishers and got a couple of them interested in it and bidding for it, and so that was kind of fun.

00:35:14
Speaker 1: So now I'm with Norton for my next two books and very excited about.

00:35:17
Speaker 3: It and a two book deal, which is super exciting because and we're guaranteed to hear from Laura after Big Time.

00:35:24
Speaker 1: You'll be hearing for me from a while.

00:35:27
Speaker 4: Yeah.

00:35:27
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:35:28
Speaker 2: And the actual writing itself is straightforward, but you just write chapters and then the marketing is its whole separate thing. But maybe we can do another Q and A on that in the future of.

00:35:38
Speaker 1: I need to listen to that Q and A, not give that Q and ANYMOREA. Well you know it's everybody.

00:35:44
Speaker 3: Actually, I will put a plug for the am Writing podcast by kJ del Antonia. I feel like I've learned a lot through there, and then also the Hungry Authors podcast, which happens to be co hosted by my editor, So yeah, yeah, those are.

00:35:56
Speaker 2: The most light resources, great resources. Well, this has been best of both worlds. I have been talking with doctor Rebecca Thompson about her book Held Together. We will be back next week with more on making work and life fit together.

00:36:09
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening.

00:36:10
Speaker 3: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.

00:36:17
Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.