Driving skills and innovation in the UK’s semiconductor industry

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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly

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podcast.

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Our guest in this episode is Paul Meredith.

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He's professor of materials

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science and director

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of the Centre for Integrative

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Semiconductor

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Materials

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at The UK's

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Swansea University.

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In a wide ranging conversation

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with Physics World's Matin Durrani,

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Meredith talks about the importance of semiconductors

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to a successful

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high-tech economy.

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And he also talks about the role that

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his center plays in supporting a manufacturing

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ecosystem

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that provides highly skilled jobs and attracts inward

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investment.

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Here's that conversation.

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So I'm delighted to be joined today by

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Paul Meredith, who's from the University of Swansea.

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Hello, Paul. Welcome to the podcast.

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Oh, hi, my team. Good to see you.

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Of course, we knew each other back in

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the nineteen nineties. You and me were back

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at the, University of Cambridge, the Cavendish.

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What did what were you doing there? You

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were a post doc there, weren't you?

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I was yeah. I was a a DTI

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post doctoral fellow in polymer colloids with with

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you and Sam and and Athena Donald.

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And then after you left the Cavendish, you

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went off to industry, didn't you? You had

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a few years at Procter and Gamble.

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Yeah. That's right. I was 1995,

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I think. That's right. I I left the

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Cavendish,

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joined joined Procter and Gamble as a product

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development scientist. I was basically, I think, the

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the rogue physicist in the in the department.

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It was good fun. I was I was

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with Procter for for six years in,

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the

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technical center in Agam.

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And then after that, of course, you know,

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you went off to Australia. And do you

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wanna tell us about the career that you

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had there? You were there for over a

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decade and a half, I think, in Queensland.

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Yeah. I was.

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University of Queensland,

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in Brisbane. Beautiful university.

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It was quite an unknown back order, I

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must say, at that time, 02/2001

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that was. We went over in January, February

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'2 thousand and '1. And,

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they they had an idea of of starting

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up a materials physics effort,

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in their physics department there. So I was

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a young lecturer. My wife and I had

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gone on on honeymoon to Australia the year

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before, and we'd sort of fallen in love

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with it really, as you do.

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So I started up at, started up at

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Queensland there in 02/2001.

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Not much to start with, to be honest.

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An empty desk, an empty office, an empty

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whiteboard, and no lab. So it really start

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from my thing. And, we were there for

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seventeen years

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and until till 2017

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and really gradually there built up an effort

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in what I now call sort of sustainable

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advanced materials that is,

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semiconductor, dielectric, metal, functional materials where where you

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were thinking about the embodied energy in the

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in the material system itself and started working

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with things like molecular semiconductors.

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And,

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that that grew into quite a large effort.

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A lot of work around bioelectronics

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at the time, which really wasn't a word

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that was was in nomenclature, but but really

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thinking about how we interface advanced materials with

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biological systems, and that's become,

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quite a big deal now in the pharmaceutical

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industry. And you hear words like electroceuticals

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from from Smith and Glynn, etcetera. So, yeah,

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lovely lovely time in Brisbane.

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And, also got very interested at that time

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in,

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in renewable energy.

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The the climate change realization was beginning to

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happen,

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and Australia was at the forefront of of

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thinking about that problem. And,

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I got into building large scale solar plants,

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which is something a bit strange for a

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physicist, a cosmet physicist, but,

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we were the first university in the world

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to build really big, large megawatt scale plant

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on our campuses.

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And that grew into

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eventually

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the university becoming the first one hundred percent

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renewable university in the world when they made

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a big investment in a big solar farm

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in 2019, I think it was. But the

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genesis of that was,

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was was us building these, these arrays on

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on-site. So a very diverse time in Australia,

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and,

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it was,

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a very productive time for us as well.

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So it sounds like you really had a,

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you know, very successful career there. Australia must

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have been, you know, a wonderful place to

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be.

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And then you came back to The UK

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to Swansea. So there must have been, what

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what made you come back back home? Because

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you are originally from South Wales. I I

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am. Yeah. I'm in my office at Singleton

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here, and I can nearly see the hospital

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I was born from. So, I'm I'm Swansea

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born and bred. I was I was brought

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up on the edge of the Gower

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Peninsula, which everybody knows, a little village called

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Wannowlife.

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And,

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left here in 1989

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after qualifying,

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with a degree in physics from this university,

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from this department, and never really thinking that

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I'd be back. But,

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in 02/2016,

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'2 thousand '17, we we made the personal

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decision to come to come back as a

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family to The United Kingdom.

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And,

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it was sort of natural

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that,

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that, you know, I I come and take

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a look at Swansea and friends and family

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still here. And at the time, Swansea was

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essentially trying to expand its physics offering and

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and really was looking for some advanced materials

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activity,

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and that fitted us. And I was fortunate

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enough to be awarded

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a national research chair from the Circumbria Programme.

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At the time, the Welsh government was expanding

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its science base.

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And so, we decided this would be the

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right move. And, we moved part of our

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group from from University of Queensland in Brisbane

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here. I brought three of our our best

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and brightest with us to South Wales, bit

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of a culture shock for them.

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And, we started again, again from nothing,

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which seems to be a theme, and

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created over the next sort of three or

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four years even during COVID,

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a fairly substantial effort in what we were

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then and are calling sustainable advanced materials as

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a thing.

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So that's why we we came back really.

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So the reason we got you on the

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podcast, Paul, is I came down to see

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you a couple of weeks ago to, the

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Center for Integrative Semiconductor

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Materials,

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which looks an amazing place when I came

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around. I was very impressed by it. So

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do you wanna explain what that what that

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place does and, what what are the aims

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of it so people who don't know about

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it?

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Well,

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it's,

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you know, it's a it's a brand brand

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new facility that you saw. And thanks for

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coming down. We really enjoyed having you.

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And it is a response.

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And it's a response

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of, I guess our university

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to the,

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to the core to support

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the rapid growth of the semiconductor manufacturing industry

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in South Wales.

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Not a lot of people know this, but,

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kind of Silicon Valley is is springing up

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along the M 4 Corridor, so to speak,

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particularly focused on the manufacturing of advanced semiconductor

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systems, particularly compound and wide gap

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systems, not really the the the traditional silicon

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world of processors

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that's owned by Intel and TSMC,

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but very high end advanced

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semiconductor technology along the M 4 Corridor.

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We've got companies like, KLA, large American

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tool and metrology manufacturer.

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Power semiconductor company Vishay have just moved into

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the region and bought one of the big

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manufacturing facilities up near Newport.

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Leader in in global epitaxy,

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IQE.

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And then all of the supply chains around

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that, including packaging companies like Microchip. So it's

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it's a really exciting time in South Wales.

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And this is beginning to happen around about

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2017, '20 '18, big time, big investments being

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made. And so,

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you know, we we saw that as a

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university, we needed to help feed that ecosystem.

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And so came up with this concept of

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of building a kind of a research development

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innovation and pilot and translational facility

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to support that semiconductor ecosystem,

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particularly focusing on the technology areas that were

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of relevance to those companies.

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And it turns out that,

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power electronics and wide band gap, high efficiency

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power electronics is is high on the agenda

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down here

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as is high end optoelectronics.

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If you have a smart phone, it's very

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likely that you have a vertical cavity service

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emitting laser in it that was grown in

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in South Wales and was patent elsewhere.

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So looking at what was really the core

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of of what those industries needed. And then,

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of course,

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you know, to do that, you've got to

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build something which is not just relevant for

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doing one of a kind research and development

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that universities in Britain do very well,

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but also is capable then of taking semiconductor

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technology and scaling it.

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So the CISM, standing for Centre for Integrated

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Semiconductor Materials, like you said, the word integrative

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is very important.

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Our focus is on the development of support

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of technology to a cross semiconductor platform.

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You know, and, and that's really where,

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I think we have a, a really interesting

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new competitive advantage in The UK semiconductor industry.

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So these concepts around heterogeneous integration of semiconductor

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platforms.

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So CISM basically

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is, an RD and I facility, but it's

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it's built and designed in the principles of

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a semiconductor manufacturing plant. We call these things

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fabs,

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in in the semiconductor vernacular. That means clean

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fabrication environment. So the word fab is is

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our slang for that. So it's basically a

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mini me fab,

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of the type that, you know, Infineon or

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any other big semiconductor company would build. And

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in fact, it's designed on very similar principles.

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So, it's designed to have higher time

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potential for twenty four seven, three 60 five

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operation and the potential not just to be

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able to make one device once,

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but to be able to process tens or

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hundreds of wafers

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to scale a process and to demonstrate that

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a particular technology is is viable.

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So, anyway, we started building that in

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00:10:16,850 --> 00:10:17,750
2020,

274
00:10:18,370 --> 00:10:20,289
right in the guts of COVID, actually. The

275
00:10:20,289 --> 00:10:22,409
summer of COVID was when we came out

276
00:10:22,409 --> 00:10:23,190
of the ground.

277
00:10:23,649 --> 00:10:24,149
And

278
00:10:24,690 --> 00:10:26,289
this year, 2025,

279
00:10:26,289 --> 00:10:29,355
we'll see our first full operational year. So

280
00:10:29,355 --> 00:10:30,955
you you saw you saw the fab a

281
00:10:30,955 --> 00:10:32,014
couple of weeks ago.

282
00:10:32,554 --> 00:10:33,595
It was pretty full.

283
00:10:34,154 --> 00:10:35,595
There was a lot of people working in

284
00:10:35,595 --> 00:10:37,754
there. Particularly, we were running a training course

285
00:10:37,754 --> 00:10:39,294
that we'll talk about in a second.

286
00:10:40,309 --> 00:10:41,450
So all in all,

287
00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:44,809
it's a modern research and development and innovation

288
00:10:44,950 --> 00:10:47,269
facility that's designed to be a a pilot

289
00:10:47,269 --> 00:10:50,169
translation facility for the for The UK semiconductor

290
00:10:50,230 --> 00:10:52,070
industry. And, of course, that's very pertinent at

291
00:10:52,070 --> 00:10:54,735
the moment as, as as we're in the

292
00:10:54,735 --> 00:10:56,415
in the middle of designing a new national

293
00:10:56,415 --> 00:10:59,794
strategy for semiconductor manufacturing and semiconductors that frontier

294
00:11:00,254 --> 00:11:03,615
of many things, artificial intelligence, quantum technology, the

295
00:11:03,615 --> 00:11:06,575
clean energy revolution, net zero, electrification of cars,

296
00:11:06,575 --> 00:11:08,909
you name it. It's advanced semiconductors that are

297
00:11:08,909 --> 00:11:10,829
gonna that are gonna enable all of that.

298
00:11:10,829 --> 00:11:12,929
So that's the context of of CISM anyway.

299
00:11:13,230 --> 00:11:14,669
So when I came around, Paul, I saw

300
00:11:14,669 --> 00:11:16,769
some you showed me some pretty cool facilities

301
00:11:16,829 --> 00:11:17,629
there. Do you wanna,

302
00:11:18,350 --> 00:11:19,789
tell us about some of the ones that

303
00:11:19,789 --> 00:11:22,184
you're particularly proud of at the at the

304
00:11:22,184 --> 00:11:23,565
at the, the center?

305
00:11:24,345 --> 00:11:25,725
Yeah. So it's

306
00:11:26,105 --> 00:11:28,184
the the heart of the facility is is

307
00:11:28,184 --> 00:11:29,804
a is a big clean room.

308
00:11:30,264 --> 00:11:32,524
And the clean room itself is a thousand

309
00:11:32,585 --> 00:11:33,485
meters squared,

310
00:11:33,865 --> 00:11:35,870
which is quite a large cleanroom for a

311
00:11:35,870 --> 00:11:37,009
university to build.

312
00:11:37,629 --> 00:11:38,129
And,

313
00:11:38,669 --> 00:11:40,990
on the cleanroom floor, as we call it,

314
00:11:40,990 --> 00:11:44,110
there are semiconductor processing tools. There are tools

315
00:11:44,110 --> 00:11:44,610
that

316
00:11:44,910 --> 00:11:48,370
deposit atom by atom semiconductors, dielectrics, and metals

317
00:11:48,625 --> 00:11:50,725
that build up the layers of a semiconductor

318
00:11:50,785 --> 00:11:51,285
device.

319
00:11:51,745 --> 00:11:53,985
There are tools that etch away to create

320
00:11:53,985 --> 00:11:57,045
three-dimensional structures, atom by atom. We we specialize

321
00:11:57,105 --> 00:11:59,745
in in so called dry etching with gas

322
00:11:59,745 --> 00:12:00,245
chemistry.

323
00:12:01,059 --> 00:12:03,299
Traditional etching and semiconductors has has been done

324
00:12:03,299 --> 00:12:05,559
with liquids like hydrofluoric acid, etcetera.

325
00:12:06,259 --> 00:12:06,759
So,

326
00:12:07,379 --> 00:12:09,860
etching equipment of of which is state of

327
00:12:09,860 --> 00:12:12,579
the art, and then the patterning equipment to

328
00:12:12,579 --> 00:12:14,500
set down the patterns of the semiconductor tech

329
00:12:14,579 --> 00:12:16,945
devices, the lithography, the so called lithography

330
00:12:17,485 --> 00:12:20,044
as well. So areas for lithography, deposition, and

331
00:12:20,044 --> 00:12:20,544
etch,

332
00:12:21,324 --> 00:12:22,704
and, and also,

333
00:12:23,324 --> 00:12:24,945
some pretty bespoke equipment,

334
00:12:25,324 --> 00:12:27,485
which is sort of, I suppose, tuned to

335
00:12:27,485 --> 00:12:27,985
what,

336
00:12:28,684 --> 00:12:31,110
to what our industry partners are interested in.

337
00:12:31,190 --> 00:12:32,889
So we hold, for example,

338
00:12:33,829 --> 00:12:37,429
The UK's national pilot line for producing silicon

339
00:12:37,429 --> 00:12:39,209
carbide power electronic components.

340
00:12:39,750 --> 00:12:42,149
That's funded by something called Driving the Electric

341
00:12:42,149 --> 00:12:42,649
Revolution,

342
00:12:44,205 --> 00:12:47,085
under the industry challenge industry strategy challenge fund

343
00:12:47,085 --> 00:12:47,985
of the last government.

344
00:12:48,605 --> 00:12:50,605
And we also hold a really nice new

345
00:12:50,605 --> 00:12:53,585
facility for for the epitaxial deposition

346
00:12:53,965 --> 00:12:56,465
of gallium oxide and other wide gap oxides.

347
00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,580
It's a metal organic CVD reactor,

348
00:13:00,279 --> 00:13:01,740
and that's the EPSRC

349
00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,240
national facility for producing gallium oxide. And we've

350
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:06,919
just commissioned it. So we've just got the

351
00:13:06,919 --> 00:13:08,059
first gallium oxide

352
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,200
epitaxy out of it in the last couple

353
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:11,480
of weeks. So it's, it's been a pretty

354
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,335
exciting couple of weeks for us. So that's

355
00:13:13,335 --> 00:13:14,695
some of the things that we're pretty proud

356
00:13:14,695 --> 00:13:15,195
of.

357
00:13:15,975 --> 00:13:19,434
Also quite self sufficient for characterization and analysis.

358
00:13:19,575 --> 00:13:21,815
It's it's very important, obviously, that you understand

359
00:13:21,815 --> 00:13:23,355
what you're growing, what you're etching,

360
00:13:23,815 --> 00:13:25,115
etcetera. And so

361
00:13:25,575 --> 00:13:27,420
a a a large suite of of characterization

362
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,460
equipment including very, very high end electron microscopy

363
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:31,500
scanning probe,

364
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:32,540
for example.

365
00:13:33,879 --> 00:13:35,080
And the great thing is when I came

366
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,000
down, Paul, you showed me, well, we talked

367
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:38,519
to some of the students who had come

368
00:13:38,519 --> 00:13:40,845
down from across The UK to learn about

369
00:13:40,845 --> 00:13:42,684
some of the techniques of particularly how to

370
00:13:42,684 --> 00:13:45,485
make semiconductors and scale them. And but that's

371
00:13:45,485 --> 00:13:47,004
one of the real things about the center,

372
00:13:47,004 --> 00:13:49,485
isn't it? To get, training for students in

373
00:13:49,485 --> 00:13:51,585
the art of doing some of this work.

374
00:13:51,884 --> 00:13:53,279
Yeah. I'm glad you used the word art

375
00:13:53,279 --> 00:13:55,440
because it it sort of hovers sometimes between

376
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,139
art, science, technology, and engineering.

377
00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,200
And there is there's a skill shortage in

378
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,759
the semiconductor industry across the globe, not just

379
00:14:03,759 --> 00:14:05,360
in The United Kingdom, but particularly in The

380
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,704
United Kingdom. And as I said, we've we've

381
00:14:07,704 --> 00:14:08,204
got,

382
00:14:09,225 --> 00:14:11,144
we've got companies that are growing rapidly in

383
00:14:11,144 --> 00:14:12,284
the region, and,

384
00:14:13,144 --> 00:14:14,444
they need us to train,

385
00:14:14,745 --> 00:14:16,125
and they need us to train

386
00:14:16,664 --> 00:14:19,064
students at all level, actually, the technical levels

387
00:14:19,064 --> 00:14:21,304
all the way from apprentice through to, you

388
00:14:21,304 --> 00:14:23,000
know, very specialist PhDs.

389
00:14:23,940 --> 00:14:26,120
And they need to be trained on equipment

390
00:14:26,259 --> 00:14:27,480
and on processes

391
00:14:27,940 --> 00:14:28,679
that are relevant

392
00:14:29,139 --> 00:14:31,559
to those being used in the manufacturing scenario.

393
00:14:31,620 --> 00:14:35,059
So we've really taken a strategic decision to

394
00:14:35,059 --> 00:14:37,000
to have that as the core of our

395
00:14:37,144 --> 00:14:39,625
of our training strategy, if you like. It's

396
00:14:39,625 --> 00:14:42,345
relevant practical training on tools that they're going

397
00:14:42,345 --> 00:14:43,004
to use

398
00:14:43,384 --> 00:14:45,725
immediately if they go into the industrial environment.

399
00:14:46,345 --> 00:14:47,004
And so,

400
00:14:48,024 --> 00:14:51,179
together with partners in University Leeds and Cambridge

401
00:14:51,179 --> 00:14:53,580
University and the Rice Institute, the the Henry

402
00:14:53,580 --> 00:14:54,240
Rice Institute,

403
00:14:55,179 --> 00:14:56,800
we put together a training course

404
00:14:57,340 --> 00:14:58,160
five days.

405
00:14:58,940 --> 00:15:01,580
And it's really about teaching all the practical

406
00:15:01,580 --> 00:15:03,040
skills from woah to go,

407
00:15:03,580 --> 00:15:05,420
that some would need to operate in a

408
00:15:05,420 --> 00:15:06,160
clean room.

409
00:15:06,914 --> 00:15:08,054
And in fact, the students,

410
00:15:09,154 --> 00:15:11,634
make throughout the period of a week, Monday

411
00:15:11,634 --> 00:15:12,294
to Friday,

412
00:15:12,914 --> 00:15:13,654
they make

413
00:15:14,274 --> 00:15:16,514
working devices. In this case, we made high

414
00:15:16,514 --> 00:15:20,274
electron mobility transistors from epitaxial gallium nitride from

415
00:15:20,274 --> 00:15:22,460
two DEG gallium nitride that was grown for

416
00:15:22,460 --> 00:15:24,399
us at Cambridge by a colleague Dave Ritchie.

417
00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:27,100
And so all of the all of the

418
00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:29,500
students made working transistors by the end of

419
00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:30,559
end of the Friday.

420
00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:32,620
You were fortunate enough to see them on

421
00:15:32,620 --> 00:15:34,995
the Friday giving their talks and presenting their

422
00:15:34,995 --> 00:15:36,674
results, and and we gave a a prize

423
00:15:36,674 --> 00:15:38,754
for the best off on off ratio, which

424
00:15:38,754 --> 00:15:40,274
was 10 to the five, pretty good for

425
00:15:40,274 --> 00:15:41,975
a a hemp transistor, I'd say.

426
00:15:42,835 --> 00:15:45,315
So that's been something, of course, has been

427
00:15:45,315 --> 00:15:47,254
evolving over a period of three years.

428
00:15:47,879 --> 00:15:49,639
Started it at Leeds. We ran it at

429
00:15:49,639 --> 00:15:51,240
the Bragg Clean Room in Leeds for two

430
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:52,759
years, the previous two years, and it was

431
00:15:52,759 --> 00:15:55,320
our turn. And it was a big deal

432
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:56,139
for us because

433
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,920
the course tested all of the elements of

434
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,215
the fab for the first time. And so,

435
00:16:01,434 --> 00:16:03,674
very hard work for everybody preparing for it

436
00:16:03,674 --> 00:16:05,034
and then delivering it over the week, but

437
00:16:05,034 --> 00:16:06,955
we're very proud of the fact that we

438
00:16:06,955 --> 00:16:09,274
managed it. 20 students were put through the

439
00:16:09,274 --> 00:16:11,855
course, four industrial engineers, 16 from

440
00:16:12,154 --> 00:16:13,695
universities all around The UK.

441
00:16:14,410 --> 00:16:15,790
We had students from Cambridge,

442
00:16:16,169 --> 00:16:16,669
Manchester,

443
00:16:17,210 --> 00:16:18,269
Sheffield, Liverpool,

444
00:16:19,290 --> 00:16:20,990
Leeds, of course, our students,

445
00:16:21,370 --> 00:16:24,169
from Swansea. So great success. And the other

446
00:16:24,169 --> 00:16:26,590
nice thing was if you sort of map

447
00:16:26,764 --> 00:16:29,264
the disciplines of those students, they were from

448
00:16:29,325 --> 00:16:31,245
not just physics, but they were from electrical

449
00:16:31,245 --> 00:16:32,865
engineering, mechanical engineering,

450
00:16:33,325 --> 00:16:36,605
chemistry, chemical process engineering. The whole thing about

451
00:16:36,605 --> 00:16:38,865
the semiconductor sector is it it requires

452
00:16:39,245 --> 00:16:40,625
a broad range of multidisciplinary

453
00:16:41,085 --> 00:16:43,639
skills. So, yeah, very pleased about that. And

454
00:16:43,639 --> 00:16:44,840
as I say, we were lucky to have

455
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:46,120
you down on the Friday to see the

456
00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:47,320
outcome of that, and you were able to

457
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:48,840
talk to some of the students. And I

458
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,519
think some of them were quite complimentary about

459
00:16:50,519 --> 00:16:52,840
their experience. The feedback has certainly been brilliant

460
00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:54,704
on it. But one of the things you

461
00:16:54,704 --> 00:16:56,464
really impressed me on with when I was

462
00:16:56,464 --> 00:16:58,784
there, Paul, was just how important the center

463
00:16:58,784 --> 00:17:00,964
is for the South Wales economy.

464
00:17:01,904 --> 00:17:03,184
And you showed me that map when we

465
00:17:03,184 --> 00:17:05,345
were sitting in the office of it was

466
00:17:05,345 --> 00:17:07,650
a map of South Wales and little lights

467
00:17:07,809 --> 00:17:10,690
flashed to indicate local businesses in this area.

468
00:17:10,690 --> 00:17:13,009
And there's a huge cluster of companies, and

469
00:17:13,009 --> 00:17:14,230
it's a really important

470
00:17:14,769 --> 00:17:16,930
effort for that economy, isn't it? And we

471
00:17:16,930 --> 00:17:18,210
also when you pick me up from the

472
00:17:18,210 --> 00:17:20,690
station at, Port Talbot, there's the steel factory

473
00:17:20,690 --> 00:17:21,430
from Tata.

474
00:17:22,085 --> 00:17:24,644
And, you know, that traditionally was the big,

475
00:17:24,644 --> 00:17:26,404
you know, really important employer. So this is

476
00:17:26,565 --> 00:17:28,505
it's transformational, isn't it, the center?

477
00:17:29,365 --> 00:17:30,345
Well, you know,

478
00:17:31,125 --> 00:17:32,904
if every economy goes through

479
00:17:33,285 --> 00:17:36,565
periodic transformations, right, every manufacturing advanced economy, you

480
00:17:36,565 --> 00:17:36,900
know.

481
00:17:37,380 --> 00:17:37,859
And,

482
00:17:38,259 --> 00:17:40,099
down in South Wales, this was, you know,

483
00:17:40,099 --> 00:17:41,160
arguably the place

484
00:17:41,539 --> 00:17:43,700
part of the industrial revolution started with coal

485
00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:45,559
mining and iron ore and copper.

486
00:17:46,099 --> 00:17:47,720
So once it used to be called Copperopolis

487
00:17:47,940 --> 00:17:49,664
in the '17 '18 hundreds.

488
00:17:50,144 --> 00:17:52,065
And, of course, steel and coal are very

489
00:17:52,065 --> 00:17:53,924
important parts of our economy. My

490
00:17:54,225 --> 00:17:55,525
family are all miners.

491
00:17:57,025 --> 00:17:59,744
But, mining is no more, in this part

492
00:17:59,744 --> 00:18:02,484
of the world, and it's, it's really,

493
00:18:02,945 --> 00:18:04,559
it's really interesting to see,

494
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,559
as we see foundational industries on the decline,

495
00:18:08,559 --> 00:18:09,220
the simultaneous

496
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,620
rise of new high-tech industries.

497
00:18:12,559 --> 00:18:15,299
And, you know, call it serendipity,

498
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,779
or or call it a bit of intervention

499
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:18,580
from government.

500
00:18:19,684 --> 00:18:20,984
That's what we're seeing here.

501
00:18:21,285 --> 00:18:21,945
And so,

502
00:18:22,325 --> 00:18:24,585
as we see jobs lost in Port Alberts,

503
00:18:24,805 --> 00:18:26,964
we see the need for retraining those sometimes

504
00:18:26,964 --> 00:18:28,265
very highly skilled people,

505
00:18:28,884 --> 00:18:29,865
into the semiconductor

506
00:18:30,164 --> 00:18:30,664
sector.

507
00:18:31,220 --> 00:18:33,799
And the thing that really characterises our sector

508
00:18:33,940 --> 00:18:36,900
is the very high value add a gross

509
00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:38,440
value add to the local economy.

510
00:18:39,859 --> 00:18:42,019
The calculations from our colleagues up at, the

511
00:18:42,019 --> 00:18:44,740
Welsh Economic Research Unit in Cardiff University that

512
00:18:44,740 --> 00:18:45,315
track this,

513
00:18:46,355 --> 00:18:47,174
reckon that

514
00:18:47,634 --> 00:18:49,634
a job in our cluster, in our in

515
00:18:49,634 --> 00:18:53,154
our semiconductor cluster, contributes roughly three times the

516
00:18:53,154 --> 00:18:55,234
national average gross value add to the local

517
00:18:55,234 --> 00:18:57,154
economy. So each job to us about a

518
00:18:57,154 --> 00:18:58,835
hundred and £50,000

519
00:18:58,835 --> 00:18:59,494
per year

520
00:19:00,259 --> 00:19:02,339
actually delivered back into the economy of South

521
00:19:02,339 --> 00:19:04,339
Wales, and that's very significant. And so it's

522
00:19:04,339 --> 00:19:06,839
a it's a really, really important part of

523
00:19:07,139 --> 00:19:09,960
of the rebirth of of this region. So,

524
00:19:11,059 --> 00:19:13,619
yeah, I think, you know, what we're seeing

525
00:19:13,619 --> 00:19:14,295
here is,

526
00:19:15,414 --> 00:19:16,795
is nationally significant.

527
00:19:17,335 --> 00:19:18,394
I think we're seeing

528
00:19:18,775 --> 00:19:19,515
quite considerable

529
00:19:20,455 --> 00:19:22,075
activity and inward investment.

530
00:19:23,335 --> 00:19:25,894
Companies moving into the region, I mentioned Vishay

531
00:19:25,894 --> 00:19:26,394
Intertechnology,

532
00:19:27,174 --> 00:19:28,855
a couple of minutes ago. Vishay is an

533
00:19:28,855 --> 00:19:29,755
American company

534
00:19:31,230 --> 00:19:33,630
And, they've moved into the region making very

535
00:19:33,630 --> 00:19:34,849
significant investments,

536
00:19:35,390 --> 00:19:35,890
bought,

537
00:19:36,670 --> 00:19:38,910
the eight inch silicon wafer fab up in

538
00:19:38,910 --> 00:19:41,009
Newport that was originally built by Infineon.

539
00:19:42,190 --> 00:19:42,690
Likewise,

540
00:19:43,644 --> 00:19:44,704
KLA Tencor,

541
00:19:46,285 --> 00:19:48,525
purchased a company called SPTS, which was an

542
00:19:48,525 --> 00:19:50,525
indigenous tool making company here, and now we're

543
00:19:50,525 --> 00:19:51,744
expanding. In fact,

544
00:19:52,525 --> 00:19:54,704
they have are just about to complete their

545
00:19:54,845 --> 00:19:57,884
European headquarter build in Newport. So it's not

546
00:19:57,884 --> 00:19:58,384
just

547
00:19:58,839 --> 00:20:01,399
acquiring an asset. It's it's making very, very

548
00:20:01,399 --> 00:20:04,539
substantial inward investments here. At the moment,

549
00:20:04,919 --> 00:20:06,679
our estimates are that there's probably about two

550
00:20:06,679 --> 00:20:08,519
and a half thousand direct jobs in the

551
00:20:08,519 --> 00:20:10,539
region with a multiplier on top of that,

552
00:20:10,705 --> 00:20:12,545
And we could see that tracking out to

553
00:20:12,545 --> 00:20:14,424
over 3,000 jobs now in the next couple

554
00:20:14,424 --> 00:20:15,045
of years,

555
00:20:15,505 --> 00:20:17,424
with the commensurate add of,

556
00:20:17,825 --> 00:20:19,904
of, you know, Iqimaq Valley to the to

557
00:20:19,904 --> 00:20:20,965
the region. So

558
00:20:21,345 --> 00:20:23,765
interesting times, and that has to be underpinned

559
00:20:24,349 --> 00:20:26,190
has to be underpinned then by the sort

560
00:20:26,190 --> 00:20:28,390
of support that we're trying to provide. And

561
00:20:28,390 --> 00:20:31,009
and Cardiff University is trying to provide skills,

562
00:20:31,150 --> 00:20:32,690
people, process support,

563
00:20:33,150 --> 00:20:36,109
a place to develop technology. And the other

564
00:20:36,109 --> 00:20:37,914
thing that I think, you know, has been

565
00:20:37,914 --> 00:20:39,755
exciting for us is is our ability to

566
00:20:39,755 --> 00:20:40,894
incubate companies.

567
00:20:41,595 --> 00:20:43,674
That's been something that's been really difficult in

568
00:20:43,674 --> 00:20:45,775
in the semiconductor sector for decades.

569
00:20:46,154 --> 00:20:48,715
If you're a smart person, smart young PhD

570
00:20:48,715 --> 00:20:50,720
student or something that's got an idea for

571
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:52,799
a semiconductor widget or a new device or

572
00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:53,539
a new process,

573
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,700
you're only gonna be able to prove that,

574
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,019
you know, if you're gonna have access to

575
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,320
equipment in a fab worth tens or hundreds

576
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:01,680
of millions of pounds. So how do you

577
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,759
do that as a as an entrepreneur, especially

578
00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:04,740
as a young entrepreneur?

579
00:21:05,164 --> 00:21:06,684
Well, the answer is you need to find

580
00:21:06,684 --> 00:21:09,325
somebody and somewhere that will will bring you

581
00:21:09,325 --> 00:21:12,464
in, support you, give you access to facilities,

582
00:21:12,765 --> 00:21:15,505
and that's something that we've dialed into this

583
00:21:15,565 --> 00:21:16,944
this new center now.

584
00:21:17,259 --> 00:21:18,079
And in fact,

585
00:21:19,099 --> 00:21:20,700
I can't tell you who, but we will

586
00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:21,179
be,

587
00:21:21,579 --> 00:21:23,759
we will hopefully be having our first incubation

588
00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:26,539
tenant move in to CISM within the next

589
00:21:26,539 --> 00:21:29,200
two months. And it's a local company

590
00:21:29,605 --> 00:21:31,365
that really needs a state of the art

591
00:21:31,365 --> 00:21:33,544
fab to prove what they need to do.

592
00:21:33,605 --> 00:21:35,605
And so, you know, that is at the

593
00:21:35,605 --> 00:21:37,605
heart of how Silicon Valley grew in the

594
00:21:37,605 --> 00:21:40,164
fifties and sixties, for example. And so I

595
00:21:40,164 --> 00:21:41,625
think there's a parallel there.

596
00:21:42,164 --> 00:21:43,859
So you've got quite a success story. I

597
00:21:43,859 --> 00:21:46,119
mean, what what can you do to persuade

598
00:21:46,740 --> 00:21:49,299
other companies and governments to invest further in

599
00:21:49,460 --> 00:21:51,700
into the South Wales area? Because you must

600
00:21:51,700 --> 00:21:53,380
want to attract more, don't you? You know,

601
00:21:53,380 --> 00:21:55,320
you've got a great base to start from.

602
00:21:56,340 --> 00:21:57,875
Yeah. I I think

603
00:21:58,894 --> 00:21:59,555
I think

604
00:22:00,015 --> 00:22:00,515
culturally,

605
00:22:01,295 --> 00:22:02,894
we're down here. We're we're not people who

606
00:22:02,894 --> 00:22:04,434
shout about things too much. Right?

607
00:22:05,934 --> 00:22:07,934
That's fairly typical. But I think we do

608
00:22:07,934 --> 00:22:09,214
need to get out there and we have

609
00:22:09,214 --> 00:22:10,470
been getting out there more.

610
00:22:10,950 --> 00:22:12,089
A lot of what's happened

611
00:22:12,549 --> 00:22:14,950
in the region has been what you might

612
00:22:14,950 --> 00:22:15,450
call,

613
00:22:16,230 --> 00:22:17,289
organic growth.

614
00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:20,409
That is to say companies getting together in

615
00:22:21,269 --> 00:22:24,265
a semi organized self self organized fashion.

616
00:22:24,724 --> 00:22:27,065
In fact, our cluster is called CS connected,

617
00:22:27,365 --> 00:22:29,065
CS for compound semiconductor

618
00:22:29,684 --> 00:22:30,184
connected,

619
00:22:30,804 --> 00:22:31,304
and

620
00:22:31,765 --> 00:22:34,744
that degree of coordination gives you critical mass.

621
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,100
And so with critical mass comes a voice,

622
00:22:38,559 --> 00:22:39,779
with critical mass,

623
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:41,860
comes the,

624
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,100
the attraction for inward investment.

625
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,039
And we've started talking about the cluster done

626
00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:48,640
here in South Wales as being the fifth

627
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,634
semiconductor cluster in Europe, 4 of which are

628
00:22:50,634 --> 00:22:53,134
based on silicon on the continent around Grenoble,

629
00:22:53,434 --> 00:22:54,654
Dresden, for example.

630
00:22:55,434 --> 00:22:57,994
And this is the first compound semiconductor cluster

631
00:22:57,994 --> 00:22:58,654
in Europe,

632
00:22:59,595 --> 00:23:00,095
and,

633
00:23:00,555 --> 00:23:02,634
the fifth overall. So we're starting to talk

634
00:23:02,634 --> 00:23:05,009
in those terms about it now that we

635
00:23:05,009 --> 00:23:07,089
feel that we've got the critical mass, and

636
00:23:07,089 --> 00:23:08,710
that word is getting out there.

637
00:23:10,049 --> 00:23:12,049
You know, sometimes it's it's if I could

638
00:23:12,049 --> 00:23:14,309
be honest, it's a little bit disappointing when

639
00:23:14,369 --> 00:23:17,025
when our leadership and our politicians talk about,

640
00:23:17,184 --> 00:23:18,865
you know, growth in other parts of the

641
00:23:18,865 --> 00:23:19,365
country,

642
00:23:20,384 --> 00:23:22,005
and and fail to appreciate

643
00:23:22,545 --> 00:23:24,785
the, you know, the the the natural growth

644
00:23:24,785 --> 00:23:26,244
that's happening down here.

645
00:23:27,904 --> 00:23:28,404
But,

646
00:23:28,945 --> 00:23:30,880
it's beholding on us now to to to

647
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,480
to be in there, to be talking about

648
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,180
it. That's why I'm coming on your podcast,

649
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,059
and to be a little bit more proactive.

650
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,320
Our industry base is growing. Our industry base

651
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,240
is more influenced as it as it as

652
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,580
it grows and as it makes those investments.

653
00:23:45,734 --> 00:23:47,494
So I'm very hopeful that over the next

654
00:23:47,494 --> 00:23:49,894
couple of years, there'll be people outside South

655
00:23:49,894 --> 00:23:52,055
Wales that appreciate that South Wales is now

656
00:23:52,055 --> 00:23:55,275
the center of The UK semiconductor manufacturing ecosystem.

657
00:23:56,934 --> 00:23:58,340
And one of the really important things that

658
00:23:58,340 --> 00:24:00,100
you mentioned when I visited Paul was the

659
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:00,900
importance of,

660
00:24:01,940 --> 00:24:02,680
the local

661
00:24:03,220 --> 00:24:05,779
local people knowing that this is a a

662
00:24:05,779 --> 00:24:07,380
career to go into. And you've done a

663
00:24:07,380 --> 00:24:08,840
lot going out into the community,

664
00:24:09,220 --> 00:24:11,539
building awareness of semiconductors as this is a

665
00:24:11,539 --> 00:24:14,065
sort of a definite proper career path that

666
00:24:14,065 --> 00:24:15,684
people can go into all levels.

667
00:24:16,304 --> 00:24:17,585
Do you wanna say a bit about what

668
00:24:17,585 --> 00:24:19,424
you've done? Because it's it's been I found

669
00:24:19,424 --> 00:24:20,804
it fascinating what you did.

670
00:24:21,984 --> 00:24:22,785
Yeah. It's,

671
00:24:24,384 --> 00:24:24,960
you know,

672
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:27,299
often traditionally,

673
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,079
if you've been you've been trained in this

674
00:24:30,079 --> 00:24:31,759
area, you often have to move away to

675
00:24:31,759 --> 00:24:33,359
get the job that, you know, is commensurate

676
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:34,720
with your training. I did. I had to

677
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,259
leave in 1989.

678
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,279
And and people still think that that's the

679
00:24:39,279 --> 00:24:41,105
case, but it's not anymore.

680
00:24:41,644 --> 00:24:43,805
And we've got to get that message out

681
00:24:43,805 --> 00:24:45,805
to youngsters. We've got to get it out

682
00:24:45,805 --> 00:24:46,705
to their parents.

683
00:24:47,484 --> 00:24:48,305
We've got

684
00:24:48,765 --> 00:24:49,505
to sell

685
00:24:50,445 --> 00:24:51,744
the, the case,

686
00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:54,960
for working in our industry in a way

687
00:24:55,180 --> 00:24:57,180
that, you know, the steel industry and the

688
00:24:57,180 --> 00:24:59,660
coal industry has done for a hundred years

689
00:24:59,660 --> 00:25:01,200
in in this part of the world.

690
00:25:01,980 --> 00:25:03,339
So some of the things that we're doing

691
00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:04,859
well, first of all, there's a there's a

692
00:25:04,859 --> 00:25:05,359
coordinated

693
00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:08,305
set of activities and and and, if you

694
00:25:08,305 --> 00:25:10,384
like, a strategy, a regional strategy on this

695
00:25:10,384 --> 00:25:12,065
that that is rolling out across the cluster.

696
00:25:12,065 --> 00:25:13,525
We've got some important projects,

697
00:25:14,545 --> 00:25:16,164
funded from various streams,

698
00:25:16,945 --> 00:25:18,545
by the Welsh and and the UK government

699
00:25:18,545 --> 00:25:20,884
and Cardiff Capital Region City Deal, for example.

700
00:25:21,505 --> 00:25:23,480
But it's about hearts and minds. And,

701
00:25:24,179 --> 00:25:26,440
there's a program, for example, called Start Seni,

702
00:25:27,460 --> 00:25:29,059
which is run by a colleague of mine,

703
00:25:29,059 --> 00:25:31,220
professor Owen Guy, who's the head of chemistry

704
00:25:31,220 --> 00:25:31,720
here.

705
00:25:32,579 --> 00:25:34,039
And Owen has developed,

706
00:25:34,740 --> 00:25:35,480
for example,

707
00:25:36,019 --> 00:25:37,005
a whole set of

708
00:25:37,484 --> 00:25:39,345
virtual reality, augmented reality

709
00:25:39,805 --> 00:25:40,305
materials.

710
00:25:41,404 --> 00:25:43,424
He goes out with headsets into schools.

711
00:25:44,444 --> 00:25:47,184
He puts the kids inside virtual fab environments.

712
00:25:48,444 --> 00:25:50,470
They learn about, you know,

713
00:25:50,769 --> 00:25:53,269
the importance of semiconductors to them,

714
00:25:53,570 --> 00:25:54,470
and to society,

715
00:25:55,009 --> 00:25:57,170
and it becomes something that that they are

716
00:25:57,170 --> 00:25:59,750
familiar with. They understand that inside their smartphone,

717
00:26:00,130 --> 00:26:02,609
you know, or maybe 80 or 90 different

718
00:26:02,609 --> 00:26:03,109
semiconductor

719
00:26:03,410 --> 00:26:04,470
types and components.

720
00:26:05,015 --> 00:26:06,855
They begin to understand these things. And one

721
00:26:06,855 --> 00:26:08,855
really nice thing he did, this is South

722
00:26:08,855 --> 00:26:10,555
Wales, of course, so we love our rugby.

723
00:26:11,495 --> 00:26:11,995
And,

724
00:26:12,455 --> 00:26:14,455
he had a a very nice, very successful

725
00:26:14,455 --> 00:26:16,475
program. I think he reached over 12,000

726
00:26:16,695 --> 00:26:17,434
school children,

727
00:26:18,134 --> 00:26:19,680
of of junior school age,

728
00:26:20,559 --> 00:26:21,539
was to go out,

729
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,140
with, in partnership, the Newport Gwent

730
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,420
franchise, the Dragons franchise rugby franchise in Newport,

731
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,480
you know, and some pretty famous Welsh rugby

732
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,654
players like Jamie Roberts, who was going out

733
00:26:32,654 --> 00:26:33,475
into schools,

734
00:26:33,934 --> 00:26:36,174
you know, on a Wednesday afternoon, for example,

735
00:26:36,174 --> 00:26:37,555
and doing an hour of rugby.

736
00:26:38,414 --> 00:26:41,055
And Owen was managing had has managed to

737
00:26:41,055 --> 00:26:42,975
to partner with that so that that the

738
00:26:42,975 --> 00:26:44,815
children were getting an hour of rugby, and

739
00:26:44,815 --> 00:26:46,015
then they were getting half an hour of

740
00:26:46,015 --> 00:26:46,515
semiconductors

741
00:26:46,815 --> 00:26:48,740
as well. So they were going home telling

742
00:26:48,740 --> 00:26:50,579
their moms and dads that they'd, you know,

743
00:26:50,579 --> 00:26:52,980
played with Jamie Roberts, but also that they'd

744
00:26:52,980 --> 00:26:55,220
learned about these funny thing called semiconductors. So

745
00:26:55,220 --> 00:26:58,039
that's where you start to get inside people

746
00:26:58,419 --> 00:27:01,220
and and get them to, to appreciate and

747
00:27:01,220 --> 00:27:03,835
realize that there's an opportunity for them. And

748
00:27:03,835 --> 00:27:05,595
as more and more of our graduates from

749
00:27:05,595 --> 00:27:08,495
from our technical colleges and and our universities

750
00:27:09,434 --> 00:27:11,295
start to populate that industry,

751
00:27:11,995 --> 00:27:14,795
then it's, it's organic at that point in

752
00:27:14,795 --> 00:27:16,715
time, then word-of-mouth comes into play. It's a

753
00:27:16,715 --> 00:27:17,695
very nice example.

754
00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:20,119
During the nineties when I was trained doing

755
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,119
my PhD up in Heriot Watt in Edinburgh

756
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:22,779
in semiconductors,

757
00:27:24,279 --> 00:27:26,759
there was, there was a phenomena known as

758
00:27:26,759 --> 00:27:27,740
Silicon Glen.

759
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:29,900
Companies like Motorola

760
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,500
had a manufacturing presence between Glasgow and Edinburgh,

761
00:27:34,045 --> 00:27:36,684
and literally thousands of Scots went into that

762
00:27:36,684 --> 00:27:37,184
industry.

763
00:27:38,205 --> 00:27:40,125
And for maybe twenty, twenty five years after

764
00:27:40,125 --> 00:27:41,884
that, everywhere you went in the world in

765
00:27:41,884 --> 00:27:44,525
the semiconductor sector, whether it be Taiwan or

766
00:27:44,525 --> 00:27:47,159
or The US or your, you would hear

767
00:27:47,159 --> 00:27:49,339
a Scottish accent around you. Yeah?

768
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,400
And so, you know, our ambition is that

769
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,159
in the next decade, wherever you go in

770
00:27:53,159 --> 00:27:55,319
the world, you might hear a lilting South

771
00:27:55,319 --> 00:27:57,480
Wales accent coming at you. That would be

772
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,720
our ambition anyway, because that means that we've

773
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,055
we've managed to, you know, train an indigenous

774
00:28:02,115 --> 00:28:02,835
base of,

775
00:28:03,235 --> 00:28:04,295
of of people.

776
00:28:05,394 --> 00:28:06,755
I should add that you're right down near

777
00:28:06,755 --> 00:28:08,995
the, you know, Swansea Bay and the beach.

778
00:28:08,995 --> 00:28:11,075
So that's a great attraction to get students

779
00:28:11,075 --> 00:28:13,649
super particularly sporty to once they've, clocked off

780
00:28:13,649 --> 00:28:15,089
on a Friday, they can head off down

781
00:28:15,089 --> 00:28:16,049
to the beach with their,

782
00:28:16,849 --> 00:28:17,409
for a bit of,

783
00:28:18,130 --> 00:28:20,609
exercise down there. Yeah. The the fab on

784
00:28:20,609 --> 00:28:22,309
the beach we call we call CSM

785
00:28:22,690 --> 00:28:23,169
and,

786
00:28:23,490 --> 00:28:24,549
surfing and semiconductors

787
00:28:24,849 --> 00:28:26,630
and rugby. That's what it's all about.

788
00:28:27,184 --> 00:28:29,424
So looking ahead, final question, Paul.

789
00:28:29,984 --> 00:28:32,144
I guess you're gonna be optimistic about next

790
00:28:32,144 --> 00:28:33,744
steps. What what are the next big plans

791
00:28:33,744 --> 00:28:34,484
for the center?

792
00:28:35,184 --> 00:28:36,005
Okay. Well,

793
00:28:36,464 --> 00:28:37,365
number one,

794
00:28:37,744 --> 00:28:39,845
we we we come to full operational

795
00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:43,210
commissioning. So 100% of the tools working.

796
00:28:44,309 --> 00:28:44,809
Then,

797
00:28:45,509 --> 00:28:47,769
it sounds like small steps, but they're not.

798
00:28:48,309 --> 00:28:50,009
Then increasing capacity,

799
00:28:50,390 --> 00:28:53,589
increasing throughput, and increasing the utilization of the

800
00:28:53,589 --> 00:28:55,365
tools. So increasing the

801
00:28:55,924 --> 00:28:57,845
number of hours of of uptime that we

802
00:28:57,845 --> 00:28:58,345
have

803
00:28:58,644 --> 00:29:01,045
per year, per day, turning it into something

804
00:29:01,045 --> 00:29:03,785
which maybe is capable of running shift patterns

805
00:29:04,164 --> 00:29:06,585
so that we're beginning to utilize the infrastructure.

806
00:29:06,644 --> 00:29:08,105
Universities, with all due respect,

807
00:29:08,950 --> 00:29:10,710
tend to have a large amount of capital

808
00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:13,370
infrastructure that that that's not terribly well utilized,

809
00:29:13,910 --> 00:29:16,170
particularly our high end research infrastructure,

810
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:18,309
that we can do a better job with.

811
00:29:18,309 --> 00:29:20,070
So that that's kind of on on our

812
00:29:20,070 --> 00:29:20,570
pathway.

813
00:29:21,974 --> 00:29:24,535
Very excited about the incubation opportunity as, say,

814
00:29:24,535 --> 00:29:26,375
our first company coming in this year that

815
00:29:26,375 --> 00:29:27,595
you'll hear more about.

816
00:29:29,015 --> 00:29:29,515
And

817
00:29:30,055 --> 00:29:32,154
and then building from that then

818
00:29:32,615 --> 00:29:33,115
really,

819
00:29:34,055 --> 00:29:38,200
consistent programs of support for KLA and Vishay

820
00:29:38,340 --> 00:29:40,740
and Microchip and IQE and all of the

821
00:29:40,740 --> 00:29:41,960
other companies that

822
00:29:42,660 --> 00:29:44,039
are along the M4 Corridor

823
00:29:44,580 --> 00:29:46,440
and us then being the magnet

824
00:29:47,299 --> 00:29:51,299
for smaller SME based inward investment coming coming

825
00:29:51,299 --> 00:29:53,355
into South Wales. So that's that's kind of

826
00:29:53,355 --> 00:29:54,414
what our trajectory

827
00:29:55,275 --> 00:29:58,154
is. We can't also, you know, go past

828
00:29:58,154 --> 00:29:59,214
the fact that

829
00:30:00,075 --> 00:30:02,734
CSM is also designed to do really frontier

830
00:30:03,355 --> 00:30:05,055
semiconductor research and development.

831
00:30:05,434 --> 00:30:07,755
And so as the fab really begins to

832
00:30:07,755 --> 00:30:08,494
run up,

833
00:30:09,269 --> 00:30:12,150
I wanna see very, very high impact papers

834
00:30:12,150 --> 00:30:14,410
and and technology coming out of the fab,

835
00:30:14,710 --> 00:30:16,869
and for people internationally to know who we

836
00:30:16,869 --> 00:30:17,369
are,

837
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:19,590
as, you know, as one of the premier

838
00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:20,090
facilities.

839
00:30:21,644 --> 00:30:22,845
Well, look, Paul, I think you've got a

840
00:30:22,845 --> 00:30:25,085
brilliant story down there. And, thank you for

841
00:30:25,085 --> 00:30:26,765
inviting me, and thanks for coming on the

842
00:30:26,765 --> 00:30:28,285
podcast. And I really do wish you all

843
00:30:28,285 --> 00:30:29,964
the best with, the center. It's,

844
00:30:30,765 --> 00:30:32,445
you know, you deserve a lot of success,

845
00:30:32,445 --> 00:30:34,605
and you're doing great stuff there. So thanks

846
00:30:34,605 --> 00:30:36,285
for coming on the podcast, Paul. And,

847
00:30:36,980 --> 00:30:38,580
yeah, hope to be in touch with you,

848
00:30:38,580 --> 00:30:40,099
and all the best for the future. No

849
00:30:40,099 --> 00:30:42,019
worries, Mateen. Thanks for, thanks for giving me

850
00:30:42,019 --> 00:30:43,960
the opportunity to talk to you. Cheers, mate.

851
00:30:51,615 --> 00:30:53,555
That was Swansea University's

852
00:30:54,015 --> 00:30:54,835
Paul Meredith

853
00:30:55,214 --> 00:30:58,674
in conversation with our very own Matin Durrani.

854
00:30:59,295 --> 00:31:01,634
Thanks to both of them for a fascinating

855
00:31:01,855 --> 00:31:02,355
discussion.

856
00:31:03,454 --> 00:31:05,394
One of the first and finest

857
00:31:06,099 --> 00:31:08,519
philosophical treatments of quantum mechanics

858
00:31:09,059 --> 00:31:10,679
is how one academic

859
00:31:11,139 --> 00:31:13,480
describes the work of the German physicist

860
00:31:13,940 --> 00:31:14,759
and philosopher,

861
00:31:15,380 --> 00:31:16,359
Greta Hermann,

862
00:31:16,899 --> 00:31:20,115
who was born in nineteen o one. While

863
00:31:20,115 --> 00:31:22,615
she sparred with the likes of Werner Heisenberg

864
00:31:23,075 --> 00:31:24,615
and John von Neumann,

865
00:31:24,994 --> 00:31:26,134
Hermann's contributions

866
00:31:26,434 --> 00:31:29,714
to quantum science have only recently come to

867
00:31:29,714 --> 00:31:30,214
light.

868
00:31:31,154 --> 00:31:34,214
In a new feature article in Physics World,

869
00:31:34,589 --> 00:31:36,049
the writer and physicist

870
00:31:36,509 --> 00:31:37,410
Sydney Perkowitz

871
00:31:38,190 --> 00:31:38,690
illuminates

872
00:31:38,990 --> 00:31:40,289
Hermann's extraordinary

873
00:31:40,669 --> 00:31:41,169
life

874
00:31:41,470 --> 00:31:44,210
from her early days as Emmy Noether's

875
00:31:44,589 --> 00:31:45,809
PhD student

876
00:31:46,349 --> 00:31:47,329
to her groundbreaking

877
00:31:47,789 --> 00:31:50,815
work on hidden variables and causality

878
00:31:51,194 --> 00:31:52,575
in quantum mechanics.

879
00:31:53,595 --> 00:31:54,095
Unfortunately,

880
00:31:54,794 --> 00:31:58,075
few physicists were aware of her papers when

881
00:31:58,075 --> 00:32:00,794
they came out, and Perkowitz says that if

882
00:32:00,794 --> 00:32:03,640
her work had been more widely known, it

883
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:04,380
could have altered

884
00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:05,980
the early development

885
00:32:06,359 --> 00:32:07,579
of quantum mechanics.

886
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,679
You can find that article on the Physics

887
00:32:10,679 --> 00:32:11,579
World website.

888
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:13,500
Just look for the headline,

889
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:14,940
Greta Herman,

890
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:16,619
the quantum physicist

891
00:32:17,164 --> 00:32:19,105
who challenged Werner Heisenberg

892
00:32:19,484 --> 00:32:21,025
and John von Neumann.

893
00:32:21,884 --> 00:32:23,724
I'm afraid that's all the time we have

894
00:32:23,724 --> 00:32:25,025
for this week's podcast.

895
00:32:25,404 --> 00:32:28,765
Thanks to Paul Meredith and Matin Durrani for

896
00:32:28,765 --> 00:32:29,825
a great discussion.

897
00:32:30,284 --> 00:32:32,910
And a special thanks to our producer, Fred

898
00:32:32,910 --> 00:32:33,410
Ailes.

899
00:32:34,029 --> 00:32:37,009
Next week, our guest is Ference Krauss,

900
00:32:37,309 --> 00:32:39,569
who shared the 2023

901
00:32:39,950 --> 00:32:42,450
Nobel Prize for Physics for developing

902
00:32:43,150 --> 00:32:43,650
experimental

903
00:32:44,029 --> 00:32:44,529
methods

904
00:32:44,865 --> 00:32:45,605
that generate

905
00:32:46,065 --> 00:32:46,565
attosecond

906
00:32:46,944 --> 00:32:49,924
pulses of light for the study of electron

907
00:32:50,144 --> 00:32:50,644
dynamics

908
00:32:51,105 --> 00:32:51,924
in matter.

909
00:32:52,625 --> 00:32:56,005
In a conversation with Physics World's Tammy Freeman,

910
00:32:56,464 --> 00:32:58,325
Krauss explains how attosecond

911
00:32:58,625 --> 00:32:59,125
physics

912
00:32:59,429 --> 00:33:00,169
is poised

913
00:33:00,470 --> 00:33:01,450
to revolutionize

914
00:33:01,829 --> 00:33:02,649
health care.

915
00:33:03,109 --> 00:33:06,009
Tune in next week to hear that interview.