Mrs. Doubtfire with Emily Heller

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Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hello and welcome to the Beckdel Cast. My name is Caitlin, name was Jamie, and you're listening to the podcast about the portrayal of women in movies. It's true. Hey, guess what. Yeah, when women in movies usually are not portrayed well or at all. Oftentimes, just to start the cast out, ever seen the movie the thing? Pretty sure there's no women in it? No? Is that? Is that a vagina monster movie? Um? Yeah, you could probably argue yes. I went on Okay, so I went on a date last night and I pregamed by watching Teeth. I didn't know you went on a date. Listen it was white, Fine, you tell me it was. I know that we're codependent. I did. It was an impromptu and I was in the middle of watching teeth and like, let me just finish watching teeth and then sure, lets me. Yeah that's a great way to Yeah, I can't recommend watching teeth before going on a first date. Enough a blast. If you're not familiar with the movie teeth, we'll get it. Yeah, well, we'll get there. But it's about a woman whose vagina is full of teeth. She bites dude sticks off with her vigilante justice feminist icon teeth. Yeah. So this is the Betel cast we use for our yardstick of how women are treated in film. We used the Bechdel tests, inspired by Alison Bechtel, uh, and our interpretation of it is the movie must have two female characters with names speak to each other at some point in the movie about something other than a man. Only has to be I think that this comes up a lot. People were like, oh, it has to be a whole scene, then nothing would pass. It literally has to be two lines of dialogue that happens, the lowest bar possible, all right, And yet so many movies managed to still not pass the Bechtel test, some of the most famous movies of all time. I'm excited about the movie we're talking about today. Yes, So before we talk about it, though, let's introduce our guest. She is a comedian. She is terrific. Emily Heller, Hello, are you doing Mrs delt Am? Why wouldn't I amazing that really it always gets a laugh. So we're talking about Mrs deult Fire. We are. Did you first see the movie? What's your history with this movie? Okay, I definitely saw it as a kid, possibly when it came out, I don't remember, but then I definitely watched it again as an adult, you know, maybe like eight years ago, then again yesterday. You know, I'm from the Bay Area too, So okay, the bus that Mrs Doubtfire gets on is a bus I used to ride when I lived there, exactly. Yeah, And you know, I started comedy in San Francisco, so I was like Robin Williams was like around, Wow, yeah, that's wild. But yeah, so I feel like pretty connected to this movie in a lot of boys. Sure, this movie was a huge movie of my childhood. There were like probably like ten different movies that I just watched all the time. This was one of them. I saw The Brave Little Toaster a lot, Jumanji. Dude. I got in so much trouble, Like the most trouble I ever got in as a kid was when I was eleven years old. It was the first time ever my parents were letting me go to the movies without an adult. They organized this whole thing where this big group of girls, We're going to go see Tom and Hook. Yeah, that JTT movie. And then while we were in line winning to buy tickets, one of the girls revealed that she had not seen Jumanji, and we were all like, you haven't seen Jumanji. And we got to the front of the line. We like, does Jumanji get out at the same time as Tom and Huck? And they were like yeah, and they were like, we're seeing Jumanji instead, Like, I changed the plans. We went to go see Jumanji instead. Jumanji did not get out at the same time as Tom and Huck got out twenty minutes later, and my mom, who had showed up to the movie theater to pick us up, thought we had all been kidnapped. She waited outside the exit of Tom and Huck watched every single person leave, none of us were in there, and she was so furious with me. Did you ever end up seeing Tom and Huck? Though? No, I didn't know. Here's a thing, but I did see again, that's fine JT very. I mean, yeah, I wasn't that big of a JTT fan. I mean I kind of was, but I didn't really know it was JT T. Is he? Because there's J T. T. And then every child slash teen actor of that era who looks exactly like him, but wasn't him. Um, no one looks exactly like that. No one had the same sparkle. It was truly. It was his coloring of like the dark eyebrows and the light eyes and sandy hair. It was like a very unusual the contrast. Yeah, the contrast, and that's like smirky. I can't even picture Big Treasure Island is or is that a J T T. Poser? Great question? You know what, let me check it out. I'm most familiar with the Christmas Carol top the podcast, the Gang. It's not him, it's not him. Yeah, there's just a lot of lookalikes out there. I do like on a Muppet movie Wikipedia page, they build all of the Muppets before any human. Top build is Kermit the frogs as it should be, I guess, But Kermit the Frog got build before Tim Curry. Anyways, this is top Fire. So yeah, I saw this movie a ton as a kid, but I hadn't seen it probably for fifteen or twenty years. Watching it again. Interesting, it's interesting things that happened. What about you, Jamie, what's your history? I didn't see this movie for a while. My older cousins would watch it all the time, but I wasn't allowed to. And then eventually I think I probably saw it around the time it was like seven or eight, and then probably again in high school and then again for this but I hadn't. I haven't seen it in like a good at least between ten and fifteen years, like it's been. It's been a bit. And yeah, there are some there have been some big cultural shifts that would have make this movie somewhat impossible. Now, I will say the writer of this movie Randy myam singer. She and I follow each other on Twitter. She's an outspoken feminist. She seems really cool. Yeah, the movie was written by two women, and then it's adapted from a novel, also written by a woman. There's a lot of interesting gray area. It's been adapted from a novel, a novel called Madam Doubtfire alias Madam doubt Fire and I Love alias Madame tout Fire. Makes it sound like a spy movie, which it sort of is. Yeah, he's definitely spying on his family, his wife and her New Relationship, also directed by Chris Columbus of the first two Harry Potter movies and Home Alone Alone and the Really Stinky on screen adaptation of Rent. Oh Yeah, Oh, Chris Cars, you're all over the place, buddy, what's happening Anyways, he's a millionaire. We're fine. I'll do the recap of Mrs Stuffire. Mrs stuff Fire is about a man named Daniel Hallard played by Robin Williams, and he's a party anymore. He has kids and he loves him. He wants to have fun with them, and he's dad. He's a bad dad. And he was married to Miranda played by Sally Field. And he throws a party for his twelve year old son and she comes in on it. The house is a mess. She's like, this is too much. Well, and she to he wasn't allowed to have a birthday party because his grades were two less right, so he So this is a classic the cool parent overriding the mean parents. Like he's he's like acting like a dad who's already been divorced, right, Like, why are you acting out of spite like this towards a woman you're currently alright? Well, so yeah, she comes home. She's fed up with all of his antics, and she was like, let's get a divorce and he's like no. And in the divorce proceedings he's granted no custody except for like he can only see them on Saturdays or something like that, and he's like, I need to see my kids more. And he finds out that Miranda is going to take out an ad in the newspaper to hire a housekeeper. So he goes to his brother, who is a makeup artist for the movies for Hollywood, except not Stage Francisco. First, he sabotages the ad so that she can't get any real inquiries, right, some classic print journalism manipulation. Yeah, and then yeah, So he calls and puts on this whole facade of like I'm the best, I'm Mrs doubtfund. So his his brother, who is like does makeup for movies. He calls him up and says, make me a woman, and his brother says, I'm so happy for you, which is like, oh, this is a very this is a joke. I didn't notice as a kid. There are tons of those, and and begs a lot of questions of like why did he like that? Doesn't the character, and that statement didn't necessarily like line up, but I was like, oh, interesting, what's the story there? Yeah, so yeah, he makes all these like this prosthetic mask and this whole body suit and everything like that to turn Daniel into Mrs Doubtfire and then he poses as the family's housekeeper. Four months. Yeah it seems like it's months. Yeah, it's a while. Sally Field, while an intelligent and empowered woman, does not recognize it's for ex husband. That is definitely the biggest buye in this movie is that she does not recognize she's capable in literally every other way. And also, I don't know if you either of you have been in like a long term relationship, but there's one thing I know very well, and it's my boyfriend's face, you know what I mean, Like I see that thing all the time. I know exactly what his teeth looked like. I know exactly, I know, you know, and they did do like fake teeth and like lots of prosthetics and stuff like that. But but he's recognizable as Robin Williams. Yeah, you've had three children with this, Like this person has been inside you would thank you as someone who has never been in a long term relationship, but knows how faces work. I do, I think I would recognize anyway. Yeah, so no one. I feel like that's a big problem for the movie. TUTSI as well. But yeah, well, now, the thing is, this movie is set in San Francisco, which I think at the time probably had one of the most robust transgender communities in the entire country. You don't live in San Francisco and not know about transgender people, especially if you're like an adult. What I'm saying is like, it's a lot easier for transgender people to pass sometimes in like the middle of America or like places where there are no transgender people because no one's looking for it. And so the fact that that also wasn't a factor in this, Like there's a few tongue in cheek jokes, but you're like, why is this set in the one city where this would be the hardest to pull off? That's true and I mean necessary. Yeah, I mean maybe she thought that Mrs Doubtfire was just a transgender woman and just didn't say anything about it, which would be interesting also but would be pretty progressive to not call out. And yeah, but there's no mention in that, and instead there is like whenever Daniel is making calls to basically make it so that Mrs doubt Fire when she calls is going to be like the best possible scenarios, right, because he does this whole like montage of calling calling, of doing like bad candidates, and one of the bad candidates is him saying I don't work with the males because I used to be one, and then oh yeah, and then she's like oh, She's like yikes and hangs up the phone, and it's like, but also like, I get that it was teeing up that terrible transphobic joke, but why would a transgender woman not want to work with boys like that? Logically, like, setting aside the transphobia of that joke, what is the logical explanation for makes no sense? That just doesn't track on anyone. Yeah, So basically Daniel works as Mrs del Fire for the family's housekeeper for months, yes, taking care of the kids, being a better father than he ever had been before basically, which is kind of in some ways makes them more culpable because it's like, Okay, you understand how rules can benefit children, and you understood it before you just were unwilling to enforce it. Cool, but as a woman, not as much of a problem. Yeah, there's some weird, some weirdness going on. Yeah, and then his two older children find out about his true identity and he tells them to keep it a secret. And then towards the end, at the big dinner scene with all the switchers between his like big work opportunity and then the birthday dinner for his ex wife. For his ex wife, Sally Field's character finds out, Oh, you're actually my husband faking being our our housekeeper at this whole touch and Sally Fields, I mean just a sec that's yeah, the fucking distrust I would have of every person around me for the following five years of my life, right, you know what I mean, especially upon finding out that it's like, oh, also two of my children new and my my ex husband like swore his children to secretly. There's just he was also asked me a lot lot of questions about my sex life with my new boyfriend, which just makes the ending of this movie. It's a family movie, but like makes the end completely bananas, Like yeah, right, because then I mean they have a fight. He's granted no custody he gets supervised visits, but he starts playing Mrs Delfire on TV, so I guess he's trustworthy. And then Miranda approaches him at work and she's like, you know what, things were better? You should see the kids and da da da. And then because she realizes that she can't find another housekeeper as good as Mrs doubts there and they all miss her and they're like, She's like, what are we talking about. She's not a real person. Why are we talking but yeah, yeah, and then like she opens the door to their new housekeeper, and then it's the reveal that it's Daniel, and she's like, you can hang out with your dad more. Yeah, the end every day after school. Yeah, okay. I do kind of think it's interesting that they bothered to include the custody battle of like, oh, for sure he would not get custody after all of this, I was like, oh that, I mean, that seems kind of realistic, or more realistic than than a lot of parts of the movie. But then at the end, it just it bugged me that like Sally Field's character is the one to be like, you know what, I was not wrong, but like I forgive you for this massive weirda. Yeah, yeah, I mean she does seem like she's being a little bit too forgiving, but she's also like, I think this is the best outcome for my kids, you know what I mean, how do you protect your kids after something like that? So yeah, it's definitely messed up. But I can see if I've learn like a kid and then I found out my dad was doing this thing that was like kind of funny to me and kind of bizarre, I would be like, oh Dad, what, but like cool, I don't know, I wouldn't be like afraid of Yeah, I mean like giving it the most possible credit. It's like she probably assessed that her kids were not traumatized by this, is not visibly traumatized by it, and that it was In performing the Mrs Doubtfire ruse, he demonstrated his willingness to change his parenting style to write adjust for the things that he needed to. But also but also it is Doubtfire like it is bizarre because it's like, you know, he is more like Daniel is more respectful of her parenting style by the end of the movie and definitely like sees the value of it. But but again, it's like we sort of see that he knows that at the beginning, he's just not doing it. Yeah, right, he This movie is just like it's yeah, but that's it. It is a way longer than I remember. Over two hours long. Oh man, it's insanely long. But but it's I mean, I enjoy this movie. It's just there's just so much like this movie could not be made right now. I just get thinking of the storyline in Arrested Development when Tobias the Mrs feather Bottom combination Mary Poppins and Mrs dowdfire thing. Yeah, but the joke there is that everyone knows that it's clearly Tobias playing this character. They're just tolerating it, yeah, and letting him do housework, let go to free labor. So one of the first things I wanted to bring up about the movie as it relates to the portrayal of women is a segment that I call breaking Shrews. It's like breaking news discussion the shrews in the movie. I appreciate that quietly, thank you so much. Pretty Much every female character that we see on screen, basically everyone is presented as a shrewish character. In some aside from Marral Wilson's character rest too young to Shrew quite yet just about everyone else, including the older daughter lydia Um. She's the one who's all like, no, we shouldn't have a party. Mom said we couldn't. Later on, she is judging her dad's apartment that he moves into and she's like, this place is detestable. She's always just kind of being like rules, rules, rules, I'm no fun, right, impossible to please. Yeah. Then we see the neighbor lady who basically knarcs on them for having a giant, disruptive party with barn animals. Yeah, but she's all like, I'm going to tell on you, and she calls Miranda at work about it, and who then comes in and Shrew's out shrews herself right into a divorce. And when I was a kid, When I was a kid, I definitely was like, oh, yeah, she's a mean mom. I was so on Daniel side when I was Yes, And now now I see this movie and I'm like, I'm on Miranda's so on her side. I feel like, what that's thing about this movie that is like both brilliant and sad, which is that like kids totally see the mom character as the bad guy, but as a woman. I was like, oh, this was made for me in some ways, because it's like, I feel like, in some ways, a very compassionate portrayal of Sally Field. She gets ample opportunity to explain all of the ways that Daniel's behavior ruined their marriage and it's totally totally legit. And then she gets to have this fucking fantasy hot boyfriend here who's like, I've been following her career and like her career success is a big part of like why he's attracted to her, and he's like totally like giving her everything. In some ways, it's like total wish fulfillment for her. In some ways like oh, I'm just one breakup away from stew from sucking pre James Bond Below seven. He is truly a vision in this movie. Yeah he's he's like but I mean, like the camera loves him. There's that whole like diving board scene. I was just like, I was not expecting to get Horney during this movie, but I forgot about ste Nipples. You do see stuis Nips new sub podcast stuis Nips There. I was expecting going into this movie because I remember the same same as you, like, not liking the mom when I was little and being like, oh my god, she's so mean, She's so terrible, and also having a very clear like map in my head of like this is like my parents, where like my mom is a disciplinarian and my dad is same fun, same dynamic with my parents. Yeah, I think it's like a lot of kids parents and and so I remember thinking that mom was so mean. But the movie, Yeah, to its credit, I was expecting a far more like villainized portrayal of Sally Fields character. But she she does at every point, like I tried to put myself in my mom's head seeing this movie. I'm like, I wonder if she felt heard, she felt piste off. Robin Williams started doing some weird you know, I don't know, well, I mean, and I think it depends on the audience who's consuming this. When we said when we're kids, were like, oh boo, mean mom. But we has grown women who often either have to ourselves or see other women carrying all the burdens in the emotional labor of maintaining a household, and we're like, yeah, we hear you, we get it. It's just frustrating, but she is. You know, nothing's really done to make her seem like a more reasonable, compelling character to the young audience who's seeing this. I think so we as children who I think this movie is the target demographic for, or like families, people with kids, the movie is like, yeah, she's the shrewe, she's the bad guy. She doesn't get her say if the cat moment at all? Yeah, absolutely, yeah, We're like there there could have been a moment in this movie where, because she has opportunities to explain where she's coming from, we know that she's not a bad person, she's not a bad parent, but but at no point her kids express an interest in spending time with her. At no point do we understand, Like we as adults can conceptually understand like she's doing all this stuff for the good of her children, But at no point, as a kid watching this did I think what a cool mom? You know, I never thought, like, you never really see her doing anything for the kids that's like fun and sometimes you like you need that, and especially when you're young. I remember my first movie I saw that took place in San Francisco when I was a kid, was the Princess Diaries and the mom that movie rules. I mean, she she's like a full time artist, but there's like scenes where she and like Mia are like having an awesome time together, and it's like, oh, even though you know, like she has to have her mom moments like Miranda does in this movie, Like we see that there's a relationship there, but that's not really here, And I feel like that might be partially connected to like a working woman kind of stigma of like, oh, she's a little bit she's not a bad mom, she's a little bit cold kind of thing. Yeah, she's got a career. She doesn't have as much time or energy to be a kind, caring mother right something. She's not around enough to realize that her ex husband and drag is her home was a little cold. She's a little distant. The custody scene, the first custody scene is really interesting for like understanding people's ideas of parenting at the time, because the judge in the moment is basically saying, like when he's making the ruling of like Daniel getting one day of custody, as he was like, you know, usually these favorite the mother, but recently we've realized that kids need dads, Like it's like a very weird sort of like wait, what like with that? When I was watching that this time, I was like, was that supposed to be like a joke? Was I supposed to be like a little progressive like wink till I think so? Couldn't tell what that was intended how that was intended to land at the time, And it seemed like he was saying that like because Daniel didn't have a job, that was why he would not be a good guardian. And it's like, but she has a job, and also wouldn't he have more time to be a guardian? Like that doesn't seem like it's confused. It's confusing unless he meant that because he doesn't need together, yeah, but to still be able to care for them. But yeah, the whole that's like an interesting comment on like masculinity that the movie is making because him not having a job is you know, like a deal is made of it, where in some ways, like I think it's like portrayed a lot of like you know, a man not having not being the breadwinner of the family is portrayed not not in extreme ways by this movie, but that's like somehow stripped him of his masculinity in some ways. Well, and we should point out too that when we first meet him, it's when he quits his job because they're trying to make him do a pro cigarette voice over for a children's cartoon, which is a very easy way to get people on your side, to be like, I'm quitting because I don't think kids should smoke cigarettes. They're like, oh, we're on board. We love this guy. Yeah. Um, And so you're like, oh, well, it's not his fault he doesn't have a job, like he quit and righteous anger, right right, And I love how the movie portrays that as something that could just happen, like oh no, there every day. Yeah, sometimes you just have to walk off the job that you probably have signed a contract for, just leave by walking off that day. Anyway, So Sally Field's character is pretty shrewish throughout the movie. There's a few other shrews that I wanted to mention. The grandma who doesn't even get any lines and you only see here for like one very brief scene, but but he makes a crack about her being dead, being a corpse and like smelling like from alde Hyde. The court liaison lady Mrs Selner something that, Yeah, she's an old shrewish lady with his divorce parole officer, which is like that, I'm not sure that it does. The way that custody is traded in this movie is like a little uncanny valley, like is he being watched that carefully? For where are these government resources going? Also, you don't ever see this character on screen, but Daniel's brother Frank played by Harvey fin scene. Sorry, um, sorry, it's for sounding so intense. Actually he is on the phone with their mother and she's like ba ba bad, like being all and he's like, I don't want to talk to mom about my divorce. Yeah, just very overbearing mother. And they're like no, no thanks, and they're just very dismissive of her. So generally, any woman you see on screen is probably portrayed as a shrewd oh. And then the housekeeper who comes into interview at the very end when they're trying to find someone to replace Mrs Doubtfire, she's not like, I don't do bathtubs, I don't do carpets, I don't do cleaning, I don't I don't do reading, I don't do Yeah, we're all the uh yeah, not a single woman in this movie gets to have any fun, right except no, presumably off screen, when Sally Field is fucking Pierce Browsn. Oh my god, can we get what hit the cutting room floor in terms of they did like a full penetration. I would watch Pierce Browsing in full penetration now seventeen. Oh yeah god. And I mean Sally Field is a fun person. There's like a really amazing interview I saw her do on I think it was Johnny Carson about when she was fucking Burt Reynolds, and it's very saucy Sally. I love it. Yeah, it's just kind of not fair that you see all these fun male characters and then no, well it really yeah, I guess it really is just Robin Williams who's fun because there aren't any other fun guys in this Like Harvey Firestein is still a little bit of a knack, but he does have he is more fun, but it is like, well, I'll give him that. There's like a gay character in this movie. There are two gay characters in these movies, both played by real life gay comedians. Comfort it's him and it's Scott Capurroh, who was like a local San Francisco stand up like a local. Yeah. Scott Capurro plays as Daniel refers to him later in the movie Aunt Jack, who's like Harvey firesteins, like, you know, not clearly articulated, like partner in both business and love. But there's a weird It's confusing because at the beginning, Harvey Firestein says, like, make this guy look like a man, and he was like, like you would know. And it's like, wait, what does that mean because that seemed like a dig about how rarely he has sex. But then it's like, but their partner together there that that part of it was unclear, but well, their their relationship ships seems mostly just professional until that line where he says Uncle Frank and Aunt Jack. Well, I remember my mom when I was very young, explaining my too, like I have two gay uncles, and she explained their relationship to me based on Mrs Doubtfire. They're like, you know, you know Rob Williams brother and Mrs Doubtfire. It's like that, and I mean it must have registered. I was like, oh, okay, cool, and that was interesting. So that was, I guess, possibly the first gay couple I had seen on screen or at least the most high profile example, because that was what my mom went to to explain a real life gay couple. To me, that's really interesting. Yeah, I just because it's not done super super well in the movie, but it was understand I'm really am curious about like the behind the scenes conversations about how to deal with gay issues in this movie, because it seems like there were multiple opportunities for them to like talk about it in a deeper way, and they like really swerved around them. And I'm wondering, like where that came from, because like it seems like they probably wanted Harvey fire Stein's character to be a drag queen, Like it seems logical that he would be like I'm going to go to my brother who's drag queen and does drag makeup to like forts as opposed to like, yeah, a movie industry makeup artists. I guess that explains the latex and stuff. But but then later on, at the very end of the movie, the movie kind of ends with Mrs doubtfire giving, like on her own TV show, giving this speech in response to a letter from a viewer about the viewers parents getting divorced, and she gives this speech about how like the only thing that makes a family is love, and families can look like a lot of different things. You know, some families have one mom, have one mom, and some families have one dad. And you're like, but what as also yeah my line? And I just have to believe that there's a version where he says that and it's cut out. I would love to see a first draft of this script, yeah, because I mean I have to assume that they got notes on notes on notes in of what what people were comfortable saying, were they and what they weren't. But that's really interesting about Harvey Firestein's character. That would make way more sense. I'd be interested in how that was portrayed in the book, or if that character even appears in the book. I mean, the book seems like when is the book set? Was this like a modern update of the book because it no, I think it was released in sometime in Yeah, it came out in for teenage and young adult audiences. Yeah weird. Oh yeah, I guess that would that would make sense. Yeah, Well, speaking of the movie skirting around issues that could have been addressed, Um, there are a few brief moments where Daniel, who is in costume as Mrs Doubtfire, experiencing life the way a woman might experience. Yeah, but so much more commentary could have been made, and it just could have been better handled. Like he gets hit on by that by a creepy bus driver who's like not even like driving, like stops the bus and it's like, are you going to drive the bus? Are you gonna like trap this woman in your bus? Like yeah, at the behest of literally everything else going on, there's that, And then he gets off the bus and he's wearing heels, needs to something like, oh my back, if I find the misogynists bastard who invented heels, I'll kill him. So there's that kind yeah, no I'm saying, Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And then there's a moment where he almost gets mugged in broad daylight crossing a street. A guy like snatches her purse, and then he kind of like beats him off and gets him back. But those are the only moments where there's any sort of even calls attention to the fact that that he's that he's maybe giving up some of his privilege in playing this character, and like what that might teach him about what women go through. This was like one of my big things I was taking notes about in the latter half of the movie is and I think that this is something that does different in a way that works better for me. That's that I do have to reatch Titsy. I'm sure there's something there as well, but they're like there at no point does Daniel's character get really into the Mrs doubt Fire character. It's always like a facade. It's never like where in TITSI as I remember, it's a lot of the character art comes from really like living as this female character and learning how to communicate as a woman, and like all all this stuff, and that there's a real arc there where I like even like the climactic scene with the with the dinner when he's going back and forth between being a man and being a woman, Like I feel like there's just like there's so much opportunity there to make a real comment and have your character learn a real lesson about something like that, but but it just doesn't really happen. It doesn't. Yeah, I feel like the closest it comes is in the scene where Mrs Doubt was having a heart to heart with Miranda about the divorce, and it's really Daniel probing her, trying to find out like, come on, is there any hope for Daniel And surely you must have tried to solve these problems and she's like, yeah, he didn't want to talk about anything serious and at a certain point he turned me into this shrew and I didn't like who I was with him, and it's like he finally gets it. Like that's the point when you see, like, Okay, this character is learning something in this scene that was upon rewatching one of my favorite scenes. I think because you're like, oh, yeah, you guys weren't a match. Like, you guys weren't a match, and also like you didn't have some of the necessary communication that you need to have about like how you're going to raise your kids together, and like what you value in a responsible partner and like and just like another impressive way that the movie let's Sally Fields character be heard and understood. Yeah, where it's like, you know, as a kid, you probably don't lose much from the movie by not seeing that scene, but watching it as an adult. Yeah, Like that's one of the semp where we're like, oh, that's that's pretty because I didn't remember that scene even happening. Of course, you probably tune it out as a scene with two adults or a scene where something goofy isn't happening or whatever. I remember scene where Mrs Tolfire is vacuuming all wild and wacky because that was in the trailer. Yeah, yeah, that's a good trailer. I totally forgot about Stew's character altogether. Really, yes, and so that was a real pleasant horny surprise, as a real kamikazee horny moment. Yeah, I don't. I mean, this movie is is tricky. I think that it's important to mention exactly how huge of a movie this was. This movie was the biggest movie of ninety three, behind Jurassic Park million dollar budget four hundred fifty million dollars at the box office. This movie was fucking massive. Yeah, which again I I does this movie do as well in ninety three if they make more nuanced points, I don't. I don't know. Probably not. If they didn't do anything, it wouldn't have tested that well with audiences. I'd be really yeah, now that you're tucking it up, I'd be really interested in, like, what kind of rewrites this movie went through before it made because even in ninety three, I feel like this movie seems like sort of like a risky movie to be making. But it, I mean it worked. Yeah, I mean it is like post TUTSI. It's like, you know, this is like a very well known movie trope. It does seem like they were trying hard to like not alienate anyone, but also to give some kind of wink at like the gay culture that made this movie possible. So I don't know, it's it's interesting. Well, I talked to a few trans friends of mine about this movie. Oh, I'm very interested to hear that. So um Riley Silverman, who was on our Batman, I messaged her and I said, I'm curious about your thoughts on movies where a sist character dresses up as or takes on the identity temporarily of a person of a different gender for the sake of the story. Other movies that come to mind are Tutsie, the Bird Cage, some like a hot Shakespeare Love. Is this inherently problematic? Is it okay as long as no transphobic comments or jokes are made? Something else? Thoughts? She responded and said, it's a gray area. For sure. Some trans people will tell you it's inherently awful. I think that's too broad of a brush. I do think with comedies there's a fine line because so many of the jokes are based in the humor of presenting a male seeming person as female. I sort of feel less bugged by these movies as a trans woman and more just as a woman, because so much of it is just really heightened genderal stereotypes. I feel like the fact that guy dressed as woman is meant to be demeaning feels so misogynist to me. And I said, totally, a lot of these movies and TV shows take the stance of a man being and in how humiliating. Yeah, there's like definitely some like kind of transphobic isn't it funny for a man to wear a dress type of humor. But then there's also like there was this whole school of like, wouldn't it be weird if a dad played a role in his kid's life in a real way where you're like, he doesn't know how to cook, he doesn't know how to clean, Like he's not a functional adult, and these are only roles he's willing to learn while not identifying as a man, Like somehow it's emasculating if he does that while he's a man, right, I mean later on in the movie His Gross Apartment does you could argue that, you know, what he learns being misses doubtfire informs his life as a kind of single father now because he cleans his place, he learns how to cook. But it's only after he has assumed the role of a woman that he bothered to do any of that. Yeah, to grow up basically yeah, um. And then I said the reverse of this, which the reverse of a male character dressing up as a female character. The reverse of that, like in Shakespeare in Love, where a woman dresses as a man, is empowering because then she gets to do a thing that she wants to do because people see her as a man and therefore she deserves respect. Yeah. Like it's more of a radical act when women take on drag in movies in order to accomplish something, because it's like understood that her gender is the reason why she can't do it, And in movies like this, it's like oh no, it's yeah, or like one of the guys. Um, And it's like in movies like this, it's like, no, it's because a man feels entitled to a place like like in Titsie and in this it's like no, men dress and drag to gain access to a place they feel entitled to that they aren't entitled. Yah. She also brought up She's the Man soccer vehicle. Um. And then Riley said, I think the bigger problem with this stuff is less the movies themselves and more how people equate them with the trans experience after the fact. And I said, yes, that just shows the huge lack of understanding of what the tra experience is. And she said yep, and it's part of the demonization of trans people, along with transplantic horror films like Sleepaway Camp. And then we That was pretty much the end of lasts like, thanks for your input, goodnye. But yeah, so that was that conversation. Left it but still friends. UM. I read. I read a very interesting editorial that I found from around the time this movie came out from a drag performer named Charles Bush. He published a opinion piece in The Washington Post when this movie came out that's pretty generally praises the movie in terms of presenting Drag to a family audience in a way that he found to be generally respectful. But but his main criticism was that it didn't do enough like it appears respectful just because there's not much being said where the passage that I highlighted was although there are glimpses of a fully fleshed out characterization in Robin Williams portrayal of a sixth year old Scottish nanny, the humor of the film of a rises above the mechanics of how he's going to get in and out of Drag, which I think, yeah, like that's as far as it's examined, is like, isn't the costume funny? And that's the scene wild that he has to put this on and take which is which you know works, And I don't even think that that is like a necessarily like horrifying bad thing to see. It's a family comedy in nine. But it's just like, yeah, there's a lot of that's of the movie is him getting in and out of the costume. Yeah, I think we could cut a half hour out of this, and we should because it's two hours. Yeah. I also spoke with another trans woman friend named Olivia asked for the same question, just basically your take on this thing that happens in movies and television, and she said an interesting thought offhand, I would say that as long as there's no real transphobia in punch lines or the narrative, then it should be fine. I know that before I came out or even really knew I was trans, I was drawn to narratives about gender swapping and that sort of thing. So I think even if there are some problematic elements that are inherent to the times they were made in overall their effects might be positive. So for her it was like, oh, interesting that I can see a story about this, even if it's not really identical to the trans experience or anything like that, it's still there's a possibility for something positive to be gleaned from, just like even watching gender be played with in any way, yeah, with without the punishments being so like, it's not being demonized, it's just being utilized in a kind of I will say, there's like a really awful moment when Daniel's two older kids find out about them stout by her ruse and his son is like, it's a he shey, we gotta call the police, and that part of it You're like, okay, also, is a child being raised in San Francisco really saying that, Yeah, I certainly hope not. I don't know, yeah, I mean the San Francisco element is like the biggest sort of like question mark on that thing, Like I don't understand. Well, I think it was Robin Williams is from the Bear and he lived there, and I think whenever he had the opportunity he would shoot things there so he could be with his family and stuff. And Zelda, his daughter, is one of the extras in the party scene. She's a little girl jumping on a couch. Oh yeah, yeah, that scene was very uncomfortable. But apart from that and that moment that we mentioned before where Sally Field hangs up the phone and be like, oh, you used to be a man. Yikes, those are the only two sort of blatantly transphobic moments that I there's like definitely sort of a I don't know how if I mean even in a position to call it subtle or not, but there's definitely something problematic about like storylines that hinge on someone's true gender identity or sex being hidden, as like this giant betrayal. That's like this trope in stories about trans people were like hiding the fact that their trans is somehow a betrayal of the people around them more like, and that's a big part of this movie. But it is also it's like, well, notes that you pretended to be a different person than you're, right, but does play into like, well, of course everyone understands that because of course we all think that's bad. You know, you can it can play into that event and and just kind of on a basic level of you know, like a man donning woman's identity and then learns the lesson whatever, the lesson maybe whether it's this movie took you whatever, and then at the end of the day, Okay, he's back in a hetero normative space, like he returns to what everyone finds to be normal and acceptable. Well, he does continue to be missed doubtfire forever Yeah on TV, which just taking away a role that a woman could have had an entertainment. Yeah, I don't know. Also, I U this movie was supposed to be filmed in Chicago, but e R said no. When e Er had enough hour to just say you can't film in this whole city, e Er said no e ER was filmed here. They said e R had a lease with the city during that time period. They just leased the whole city. What is the budget for e Er? They could just least Chicago. Yeah, that doesn't supposed Chicago, but then they relocated to San Francisco because we are only real quick about your point a few moments ago. Um, So, the song Dude Looks Like a Lady by Aerosmith was featured prominently in the featured prominently and it had like a resurgence because of this movie because it was I think it first released in the late eighties and then yeah, oh, I assumed that it came out around the same time. Interesting, No, I think it was eight seven, but don't quote me on that. That might be wrong. But so, yeah, this song was like hugely popular again because of this movie. And I read a Vox article about Caitlyn Jenner's response to this song and basically being like, I love this song and everyone's like, well, how about how it's very offensive to trans people because it's still saying dude. Yeah. Yeah. I'll just read a quick paragraph from the article. It says, in general, the lyrics blur the line between being a trans woman, a cross dressing man, or a man who simply has feminine traits. The song also plays on the idea that trans women intentionally deceive men or are in disguise that they are as for Lola as well by The Kinks I'm not super familiar with that song, same song set up um and that they are unattractive, repulsive, as evidenced in one of the video's first scenes where Steven Tyler recoils at this side of a construction worker whose gender identity is purposefully unclear, and at one point mixes pronouns going from oh, she like it in one line too, oh he was a lady in the next. Also, that plays on a roller coaster at Disney World. Why does Arrowsmith have their own roller coaster? I'm not that upset about it, am I mom practically creams every time we go to Disney roll then she gets to go on the Aerosmith roller coaster. Wait what episode did we first talk about that? In the How My Mom? Okay, so how my Mom tried to be tried and failed to be an Aerosmith groupie and then became became a groupie for this other band called the Beaver Brown band was just like supposed to be. My mom always she was like Beaver Brown was going to be as big as Aerosmith, and nothing worked out for them. They couldn't catch a break check out because the Beaver Brown band. But they are terrible. They aren't really bad. My mom just followed him around for a while on a while, child, Can we talk about the scene between Miranda and Stu when he first comes to her office, approaching her basically like, O help me design this AIRB and B. Nope, that's not what just to be and be a bend breakfast. Yeah, and um, here's how this scene plays out, he says. And the pretense of the scene is that they're just having a business meeting and she's showing him told her like this guy asked for you specifically. So she starts describing what the look of this um airbnb, which is what I'm going to call now um in San Francisco. She could be developing, she's just describing it. And he says, you've never looked better or you look better than ever, and she ignores him and keeps talking business stuff, and he says, I've been following your career. Again. She barrels through and just keeps talking about the designs. He says, I'd love to get reacquainted again. She ignores him, keeps just talking business. Uh. And then he says can we talk over dinner? And that's what gets her to be like, yes, this is so nice, which I think sends a dangerous message because to push past the no yeah she's ignoring her does not mean no. And also, yeah, like saying nothing doesn't like is a yes, right, because like this could be considered sexual harassment in the workplace for sure. She's like, he's like, you look good, let's go to this is this is a test where I suggest doing one of my favorite movie tests, which is replaced the conventionally attractive mail with Steve Bushemy in this scene. How does it hold up? And this scene would read us very creepy. Yeah, so love it for her character to not respond in the way you think she might because she's technically being harassed. For her to be like, oh, yes, this is so nice. Let's start dating, because I mean they have they have a history. And he was like they like data in college. Yeah, And then also like, you know, it's hard. What I'm saying is it's hard because and I'm hard and they're harty. For ste I will say that is like, there are two very refreshing things about the male characters in this movie, which is that like Robin Williams's character does not see his children as a burden. He's like all he wants to do is spend time with them, and that's like not the most common thing. But then also, yeah, like Pierce Browsman is like cool single mom with three kids. He's in, He's in. There's a scene at the pool when like when Mrs doubtfire overhears him having a conversation with the bartender that I kind of thought was gonna like the bartender being like, you don't like kids, why are you dating this woman? And you kind of think he's going to reveal like I actually deal money from her, or just like I'm gonna love her and leave her. And he's like, she's changed my mind because she's that amazing of a woman and I love these kids, and like and you're like, this is kind of I thought the same exact thing. I thought you were gonna. There's gonna be like a reveal that he because I didn't remember exactly what happened in that story beat and I was just like, oh, he's going to be revealed to be this like devious, sneaky, evil dude, but like, no, he's just a pretty nice guys. Well, a movie that this reminded me of that came out, I just like it came out a year later. The Santa Claus comes out a year after Mrs tim Allen Yes with with Tim Allen who Santa dies and then Tim Allen is Santa because he witnessed Santa's death or something maybe weirdly responsible for it. Whoever finds Santa's body is the new Santa Santa. So that's the movie, but it is there's a lot of elements to the Santa clause that is very similar to Mrs staff Fire, and that it's a recently divorced couple. The dad is taking on this new identity, and there's a little bit of a body horror element to it, like what, yeah, they're both basically wearing fat suits they I mean, they're both for sure why And there is a Stu character in the Santa clause, but it's it's done way less tastefully. I think where Judge Reinold plays this because I remember having crush on him when I was little and my mom being like why would you like meal? Also name is where Neil is just as lovely new partner for for this mother, but the narrative is constantly like basically calling him whatever you would call a kuk in, like this guy is not masculine. This guy's a dweeen, he's their relationship is super de sexualized, whereas this is like, no, it's super sexualized, like you can't just yeah. There are some definite inversions of the tropes here, because like usually these movies have something to do with like the dad working too hard and not understanding what it is to be a father enough. People like Cramer remembersus Cramer liar, Liar. All of those movies are about like a dad who has to learn how to like be a dad, and this is about the opposite. It's like he has the warmth, he has the fun, he has the interest in his children. What he needs to learn how to do is like be responsible, and that's not usually how that goes. That is, I didn't think of it that way. In some ways, it's like a way of elevating these like traditionally female characteristics of like nurturing and caring and rules and boundaries and stuff like that, the emotional labor that women do in these stuff and and uh Sally Fields character can do. I mean she can't like literally do everything, but she knows how to do everything. It's like she could delegate to she was the breadwinner and she knew how to care for the kids. Like so, I mean she she's given all the skills and is not the villain of the movie ostensibly, but I do think that there's there is a subtext for kids that she's the mean one. Yeah, if there's any mean one in this movie, yeh. Can we go back to the pool seem really quick? Because I just want to mention that there's a line where they're all like trying to get Mrs doult Fire to like put on a bathing suit to get in the pool, and she's just like, no, it would be like reenacting The Titanic, and I just wanted to mention the Titanic shout out. So okay. So so it was a tough I will say, just to start rapping, is that I was expecting to have a lot more issues with this movie than ultimately it because I hadn't seen it in so long that when you hear the premise and then you hear the year it's made, You're like, oh, this is probably a fucking nightmare. Yeah it's not. There's a lot of missed opportunities. Yeah, there is some stuff that is poorly handled, but it's But unlike other sort of cross dressing movies that came out around this time, this movie doesn't seem like it's setting out to make a joke of the gender play as much as it is like, let's give Robin Williams a vehicle. It just seems like it's really catered to like what he's good at and ways he can be funny, and it's not. It doesn't seem like they're setting out to say anything about gender necessarily, right, which is where like the missed opportunity comes in. But it's also like they're not. Yeah, like there's five million hours of Robin Williams improvised footage that ye like, I shudder, like, I just it makes me exhausted just thinking of how much a lot of freestyle goofing a lot of it. Two, which is problematic is he's like appropriating other cultures. There's a couple of racist things in here. Also, very very white, very white movie. No people with speaking lines, speaking lines, no people with people of color, with people we see. We see a number of women over forty, but they're all mean. Also, this is Doubtfire is technically a sixty year old woman, but she is not real and she's played by a forty year old man. Yeah right, which makes for an interesting discussion about the Bechtel test. So for me, my friend Lisa, when she watches this movie genuinely forgets that they're the same person. Okay, yeah, she just like has such a hard time keeping track of that and she just thinks that people when she watches that. It also makes me very yeah, like why is this dinner so stressful? Well, for me, when I was trying to figure out if it passed the Backtel test or not, I was not counting Mrs Doubtfire's character as a woman, because even though that character is presenting as a woman, it's not someone who identifies actually as a woman. So to me, Mrs Doubtfire is still yeah, it's still it's still a scene that a man can watch and identify with that character in some way. Yeah. I think that this would this would be harder to apply to a movie like to see where the male character does get so deep into the female persona, but this one is, yeah, it's all pretty certain, right, Yes, So because of that, I would say I think the movie still does passes. Yes, there's a scene where the daughters are talking about what they did in school that day. I painted a picture of a bunny and the teacher liked it. Yeah, ding, Yeah. And there's also scenes where Nadia is like, why do we need a housekeeper? Yeah, not a little bit, we need a housekeeper anyway. Miranda says, this is all I need right now, because she's such they're literally shrewing at each other. But then Lydia said, um, why can't Dad do it? So then she brings up a dead and then it stops passing. But yeah, there's You would think there would be more, considering there are so many female characters in the movie, between the two daughters and Miranda and all the many other women who you see, maybe only peripherally, But yeah, there's only those kind of handful of scenes where there's another one where Miranda says, like, where were you guys, And they're like, we were upstairs doing our homework. Missus doubtfire, so we had to But it's just these very quick exchanges. You think there'd be more for a movie that you know, I have so many women in it, but nope, a lot of them are very isolated from each other. Yes, yeah that's true. Um, does anyone have any final thoughts before we write the movie? I think we we We talked about this a little bit, but yeah, the the soundtrack of this movie. There the four main tracks that are not instrumental are Dude, looks like a lady, walk like a man, Luck be a lady. Papa's got a brand new bag. So whoever is choosing for this music for this movie, grow up? All right, So let's write the movie on our nipple scale when we eight based on its portrayal of women, specifically zero to five nipples. Oh, this is another tricky one, I get. Oh god, I don't even know. Maybe a two and a half doesn't deserve more exactly what I was going to say, Okay, all right, well we're still I just wanted to give Pierce bros And three nipples. Yeah. Yeah, to me, it's like in the middle two and a half. Because what we already sort of mentioned the missed opportunities to comment on more meaningful things, you know, gender roles and um, I mean we haven't talked about this, but like, child custody is one of men's rights activists biggest fucking forgrom like issues, and this movie does kind of come down on their side a bit that doesn't challenge Yeah. Yeah, it's like men's rights activists are always talking about how women are favored in custody battles and that's a proof that women don't have to advantages in society, and it's like, give me a fucking me a fucking tire iron. So in that way, like you know, they didn't know that when they made this movie. But also that is a little bit of a thing that's get splayed into here. That's true, and it is interesting that we see so much custody battle stuff as well. I mean they lay a lot of pipe in those scenes, so it kind of makes sense where that's like, that's when he explains like I need to see my kids every day. I've never not seen them every day, and you're like, that's why he does the misses doubtfa. I think that's the first time we kind of hear that even so, yeah, um, missed our opportunities and things could have been handled better or differently. But yeah, I'd say like it's probably I mean, I haven't seen the movie White Chicks, but it probably does a better job when handling these issues. That's a hot ta. I don't know for sure. I haven't seen that White Chicks, but I'm sure this is better. Thank you so much, blown away. Okay heard it here first. White Chicks probably isn't a good movie. Icons So yeah, two and a half and Mrs Seller gets two of my nipples because I think she's underappreciated. She's just doing her job. She shows up on time. One thing I think is really interesting about the Mrs Seller character is like she's so hostile at Daniel, but when she meets Mrs Doubtfire, You're like, oh, she's relaxed. She's like it feels this immediate kinship and you don't really it's not doesn't get explored that much, but you're kind of like, oh, I immediately see a different side of this character now that she's around a woman. It is nice to see that. Yeah, we'll and I'm sure like in context of her job, she has to deal with shitty deadbeat your time, Like I understand the hostel She's like, let me take your face cream and also rub it on my face. Yeah? What, what a weird movie. Oh and then my other half nipple. Um, I will give to Harvey Fierstein. He earned it, man, he really did. Gay, I'll give it two and a half as well. I'll succumb to the don't we don't don't let us peer pressure you. No, I I I'm with it. I'm giving two and a half nipples to Pierce Brosnan to do with what he will. But I agree with what you're saying. I think that most of this. I think that this movie would have worked a lot better for me if we saw even one scene of Miranda connecting with her kids or just like seeing that just because she is a single mom who works does not just automatically mean that she's cold and can't connect with her kids. So if we saw that, I think that it would have been higher rating. But it's just mostly missed opportunities. Um, and kind of a little bit of lazy writing when it comes to writing female characters. Yes, browsn in, however does get all my nipples? Well? That sends an interesting message, Jamie. Um, do you like to be problematic? Uh? Yeah, you know what, I'm going to round it up to three nipples, I think, Okay, Yeah, I was just giving it some slack for when it came out. And also like, how much of this movie is just about Robin Williams and not about the premise of the movie. Really just tears through this movie kind of regardless of what was in the script, probably, and he's like, give me a movie where I can do voices. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. And it was like, you know, at the time, it was a perfect vehicle for him, So yeah, I'll give it three nipples. And again, yeah, sexualizing Pierce Brosnan and that being the only like sex in the movie. I liked reparations. Yeah, the female gaze was catered to in this movie. Yeah, yeah, oh god, can you imagine, like, yeah, just getting to be around Pierce Brosnuck. There are a few moments in the movie where Daniel, usually dressed as Mrs Doultfire, will like kind of leer at a woman or like trying to buy her a drink, which is weird because it's like, you just experienced a guy hitting on you and how uncomfortable that made you. Why would you then turn around and do that and do something to a woman. I think that that Yeah, harkens back to again of Mrs Doubtfire just being strictly treated as a costume by the narrative as well. Yeah, well, you know, he could have learned a little bit of a lesson, but it turns out maiden't. It's also funny that in those scenes it's not like, oh, a woman bought her a drink, so she's creeped out, and not like, oh, a woman bought her a drink and so she's so relieved that it's not a terrifying man. Yeah, this is uh, this is a lesser horror. Usually. Yeah, that didn't try. If if an older woman was like, here, let me buy you a drink, I'd be like yeah, thanks, yeah, cool, okay, yeah I would accept that so quick, like oh hell yeah wait what? Thank you? All right? Anyway, Emily, thank you so much for being here, Thanks for having me, for bringing us this movie. Yeah, where can people find you online? Do you have anything you'd like to plug? I'm at Mr Emily Heller on everything. Also, I'm recording my second album on January a Curious Comedy Theater in Portland, So if you live in Portland, please come to that. Also, after I watched this movie, my boyfriend made a lot of really funny Mrs down Fire memes that I retweeted, so you please go find them. Great. You can follow us at bechtel Cast on all the platforms Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. You can go to our website beactel cast dot com. You can subscribe to our Patreon Patreon dot com slash bectel Cast if you pay five dollars a month are really good? Sorry? Uh yeah. If you give us five dollars a month, you get access to two bonus episodes in a month, and then you help us with our production costs. Oh man, I can't wait. I can't wait. You can divide me on Twitter at Hamburg and you can find me at Caitlin Durante. Oh my god, you guys got to check out these means. There's like capitalization is very funny. It's I've never seen new written out emails. It's one capital all right, all right, Well thanks for this thing and bye by