Great Courses: Riviera (feat. Zac Blair)

00:00:00
Speaker 1: Today we're talking about what makes Riviera Country Club a great golf course. My guest is a professional golfer who has played Riviera in competition. He's also a golf course enthusiast and most recently a golf course developer. His name is Zach Blair. I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is designing golf, all right. So today's big question is a two parter. Why is Riviera a great golf course and how could it be better? So right off the bat, I'd say that Riviera is one of the best designed golf courses in America. I would put it in the top ten in that regard, probably maybe the top five. Is just an incredibly accomplished work of golf architecture by George Thomas and his associate Billy Bell. And the first thing that jumps out to me about it is the whole to whole variety. Every hole feels immediately distinct and memorable. You know, Jeff Shackelford likes to talk about the drive home test. As you're driving home, how easily can you call each hole to your memory? And I would say Riviera passes that test about as well as any course in the world. And that's particularly impressive to me with Riviera because the property itself doesn't have all that much inherent variety in it. It's definitely not bad, you know, it's just a southern California canyon essentially with a baranka running down one side, so there is some stuff to work with, but the valley floor itself is pretty boring, and there's just not the kind of undulation that you see at other courses that are in Riviera's class. You know, you consider Oakmont or Shinnacok Hills or Marion to be the rivals of Riviera. Riviera just doesn't have what those courses have in terms of topography. And yet each hole at Riviera has its own distinct personality. So why don't we walk through a stretch of holes that I think really exemplifies this characteristic of Riviera's and that for me is holes four through eight. So starting with the fourth hole, this is a long par three built right into the canyon wall. It's sort of George Thomas's version of a Ridan template. So the green is protected front left and its slopes as well as angles front right to back left, and then there's this big kicker slope coming off the canyon wall feeding into the green. Just a really striking, beautiful rendition of a ridan. Then you get to the fifth hole, a muscular par four, slight dog leg to the left, plenty of room on the right, but if you bail out to the right, your approach is going to be blocked out by this big mound that sits front right of the green. So it's all about hugging the inside of the dog leg there going left if you can. All right, Now we go to six, which is the famous doughnut par three with the bunker right in the middle of the green. Incredibly bold choice by Thomas, but it's also functional because if you know the contours of the green, you can usually put around the bunker. If you're on the wrong side of it. You see a lot of players in PGA Tour events chipping over it, and yeah, that's an option, but really you can put to almost any pin position on that green if you know how to use the contours very clever. Then you go to the seventh hole, which is a strategic par four playing along the main baranka of the property. It's short enough to be gettable, but the baranca is on the right. And then there's this big bunker that comes in diagonally from the left, so the fairway sort of pinches in and that forces you to make a decision off the tee about how far up you want to push. Finally, the eighth hole is a split fairway par four with the baranka running right down the middle, and once again decision time off the tee. You have to choose between two completely different routes, each with its own potential advantages and disadvantages. So right there in the span of five holes, you've got a long redand type par three and a tough par four, both along the canyon wall. You've got a shorter par three with a bunker right in the middle of the green. You've got a short, strategic par four, and then a double fairway hole. That's a lot of variety, and I think it really speaks to Tom Skill in giving each whole some distinctive characteristic that lodges in the player's memory, and it also shows Thomas's facility with strategic design. All of the par fours in that stretch have some kind of risk reward element. On five, it's about pushing toward that left edge. On seven, it's about how much you want to take on the bottleneck, and on eight it's about choosing between two entirely different fairways. So you've got three distinctive flavors of what I would call the strategic school of golf architecture right there. But each one is very well thought out, very well balanced, just ingeniously conceived by George Thomas. Okay, So another thing that makes Riviera special is the quality of its earthworks, Especially for nineteen twenty seven, which is when the course opened. Hers Thomas and Billy Bell, who was his associate and kind of lead construction guy, moved quite a bit of dirt to make everything at Riviera work, and they actually used some newish technology in this process. They used what were called road scrapers, basically motorized earth moving vehicles. But when you visit Riviera for the first time, you don't really notice that the land was significantly manipulated. You don't notice the work of those road scrapers, and that's because Thomas and Bell were very skilled at concealing their cuts and fills. Everything looks natural and effortless, and I think the most impressive example of this work is along the canyon wall at the northwestern end of the site. That's where you'll find holes four, five and eighteen. Four and five we've already talked about from a strategic perspective, but one thing I'd recommend doing on four and five is walking down to the left of those greens and looking back up. That's when you'll see how big those fill pads are that prop up the greens against the canyon wall. You just don't see that when you're playing the holes unless you hit your ball down there, but if you look at them, you just see those are massive, right. And then there's eighteen, which is hugely manufactured. Initially, there was this twenty foot gully running along the base of the hill below the clubhouse and right where they wanted to put the eighteenth green, and so to build that green, Thomas and Bell filled in the gully and then raise the green another ten feet to get what you see now. But when you look at it today, you would not guess that the terrain was originally totally different, and that's a sign of quality construction. So, yes, Riviera is a brilliantly designed golf course. In its current form, however, I think it falls well short of its potential. So let's talk about a few specific issues that Riviera has. The first is the Kakuya grass, which is the primary turf found in the fairways and rough at Riviera. This is not the original turf. It was probably introduced in nineteen thirty eight to reinforce certain sections of the property after a massive flood damaged the course. But it's an incredibly sticky, grabby turf type, which means that the ball doesn't bounce and run all that much. And that's a shame because Thomas designed Riviera to be played along the ground. He wanted players to be able to run shots into green and to use all those interesting slopes and contours that Thomas and Bell built. But that's not really the reality at Riviera anymore. It is primarily an aerial golf course. The second problem is that the greens and fairways have shrunk considerably over time. This is an issue you see at a lot of classic golf courses. Mowing lines creep inward and suddenly you've lost significant portions of the playing surfaces. And when that happens, you lose some of the character of the design. You lose width, you lose strategic angles, you lose a sense of scale. Right the golf course matching the scale of the land, everything gets kind of muffled, and that's what I think has happened at Riviera. The third issue I'd point out is the lack of vegetative texture on the property. Right now, Riviera is dominated by cocua, grap and eucalyptus trees, and that makes for a pretty limited visual palette. If you just compare Riviera with the North course at Los Angeles Country Club, I think you'll see what I mean. LACC has that indigenous southern California look. It has scrubby vegetation, It has a wonderful variety of trees. The barankas are colorful and rugged, all of which is a credit to Gil Hans and the restoration that he did there fifteen years ago, and also to the club's stewardship since then. But I think Riviera could do something similar, and I wish it would. Finally, and relatedly, the eucalyptus trees at Riviera are a problem in some places, specifically on the thirteenth hole, and this one drives me kind of crazy. It's a part four with a baranka running along the left side. The fairway should go all the way to the Baranka, and not only does it not, but there's a stand of eucalyptus trees between the baranka and the fairway, So the whole has this wonderful natural hazard that it's just disregarding right now. Now, if Riviera removed the trees, I'm sure that scores would be lower, and maybe that would be a problem for the club. Maybe that would be a problem for the PGA Tour, but it would be a much more interesting and attractive hole in my opinion. So big picture here, Riviera is a phenomenal golf course. It is one of the best designs ever, but I do think it could be much much better. All right, so let's continue talking about Riviera with Zach Blair. Zach is the developer and one of the design brains behind the Tree Farm, and he's also a PGA Tour professional who has played Rivia in the tournament now known as the Genesis Invitational. So I thought it would be interesting to get his perspective on the golf course, both as a pro and as a golf architecture aficionado. All right, let's jump to my conversation with Zach Blair. All right, Zach Blair, welcome to the pod. Thanks for being here.

00:12:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me.

00:12:28
Speaker 1: So we're talking about Riviera today, a place with which you're very familiar. You're passionate about the golf architecture there, you've actually written about it before, written about the Tempole at the very least, but also you have kind of a professional golfer's perspective on this place as well. So what was the first time that you played Riviera and what were your initial impressions.

00:12:53
Speaker 3: I think it was probably twenty fourteen, maybe during the It used to not an elevated event, so someone like me used to get in. But I mean I had heard a ton about it, had played a couple other places in La and you know, had had been asked the question, you know, what do you like more?

00:13:14
Speaker 2: Which place do you think is better?

00:13:16
Speaker 3: But I had never played riv so it was cool to to kind of see it for the first time in that sort of kind of setting.

00:13:24
Speaker 2: During the I don't even know what it was called back then. I think it was the Trust, yeah exactly.

00:13:31
Speaker 3: It might have been something, it might have been something before that, but anyways that I think that was maybe twenty fourteen was the first time I saw.

00:13:38
Speaker 1: It, Okay, And what what stood out to you the first time you played the course.

00:13:45
Speaker 3: I mean when you walk up to the first t it's a pretty cool uh you know, it's a pretty cool setting kind of right there by the clubhouse, kind of hitting down.

00:13:52
Speaker 2: To that narrow you know, that narrow fairway on that short part five.

00:13:55
Speaker 3: But I think just like the thing that stood out to me was just how many good holes there were out there, and just you know, all the greens were really cool. And just like anytime somebody asks, like, what's your favorite course on the PGA tour, it's like a pretty easy answer that you know, that's mine. But yeah, just I think just like just a really really cool property. The way it's routed and the way they used kind of all the barancas and stuff like that to move water around on on like not a super interesting site, you know what I mean, But they did a really cool job kind of getting you from one to eighteen with a bunch of different looks. And I think, you know, you do a bunch of different stuff out there. You can hit driver a lot, you can hit different clubs. You got a bunch of different looks into the greens, and then you know, the greens are really cool too, So I mean it's like you wish you played that thirty times a year on the PGA Tour, you know.

00:14:54
Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, the opinion that Riviera is one's favorite course on the PGA Tour is pretty common among PGA Tour players. You're not when it comes to golf course architecture. You're not the typical PGA Tour player. You have you have kind of a keener interest in it than than maybe most do. And yet there does seem to be a widely accepted opinion among tour pros that that Riviera is one of the best courses. If you ask a lot of different pros what their favorite course is, they often say Riviera. Do you have any any theories about why that is, especially given that Riviera has has some definite quirks, you know, as a green with a bunker in the middle of it, and et cetera, et cetera. So why is it the pros are so taken with the course, do you think?

00:15:40
Speaker 3: I mean, I think there's not a ton of great places we play, so I think it certainly sticks out that, you know, how far ahead of everything else that it is. I think for anyone it's pretty easy to I mean, you don't have to be like a super golf nerd to to see how cool it is. It's just a bunch are really really good golf holes. And I think it is one of those places where it does kind of reward doing the right stuff. You know, you drive it well or you hit it well. You know, you can put good out there. But it is tricky, you know, on the greens. Being Poe, you always hear kind of you know, a lot of three putts inside of ten feet that week, you know, old school greens. But I think probably just just from the fact that we don't play many golf courses, I would say, outside of a handful or outside of the majors that are even kind of in that realm of how good it is. And you know, so that carries some weight for sure.

00:16:43
Speaker 1: When you think about the different skill areas that a course might might test. What comes to mind at Riviera is there is there a kind of skill area that that course emphasizes more than the more than the average venue for.

00:16:58
Speaker 3: You, well, I think the kind of the green complexes and just the way it's bunkered and kind of everything around the greens.

00:17:11
Speaker 2: You know, you got.

00:17:12
Speaker 3: To do the right stuff. You got to know where to hit it. You got to hit your numbers, and you can get like severely penalized if you miss, you know what I mean. So they're they're able to, you know, get some of those pins right over. Some of the bunkers are kind of tucked back into some corners that you know, have some big contours that that kind of help defend it. So you know, you've got to be doing the right stuff, executing what you're trying to do. And you know, I don't know exactly like what the winning score there typically is, but I mean when it's firm, you know, and that's just kind of a crapshoot. I guess year and in year out, but like when it's when it's firm, you know, it's it's like a legit test, you know. And I think, you know, there's a there's a handful of at least I haven't played it in the event, you know, in a while. But you know, there's some long holes and there's some short holes, and there's a couple of long par threes and a couple of short ones. It's kind of got everything, you know, the par fives, it's like you got the really short one on one and seventeen can kind of play long. So it's just I think it's just a really good test of kind of everything you got to drive it. Well, there's the you know, the trees kind of play a factor when you kind of get offline. You know, you got the tenthole that you know can kind of be diabolical, but you can.

00:18:38
Speaker 2: Also make a two on it. So it's it's really just.

00:18:44
Speaker 3: You know, kind of got everything you want from a from a golf course aspect, and they can kind of tune it up for the tournament to kind of play even better for professional golf, which is cool.

00:18:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, when it gets windy, it I mean it can be brutal. I remember a few years ago they actually stopped the event because you know, the greens were firm and it was starting to blow a little bit and they got spooked. Yeah, so it's it can it can definitely have teeth. It's an interesting course. I mean, it is very balanced, as you're saying, it doesn't seem to discriminate against any particular type of player, though though longer hitters have tended to do pretty well. At the same time, it's there are kind of weird results at Riviera historically, you know, like it, Bubba Watson plays so well there, Adam Scott plays so well there. Tiger Woods has never won there. Jack Nicholas never won there, and I just I wonder if that just is sort of a set of random results, or if there's a reason that Riviera just seems to be different from other tour courses in the way that it elevates some players and gives other players fits.

00:19:55
Speaker 2: Don't.

00:19:55
Speaker 1: I don't know if you have a theory about that or thoughts about that, but it's just something that has always saddled around in my head about Rivier. It's like, why is it that this course seems to be different?

00:20:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't, I don't really know.

00:20:07
Speaker 3: I'm surprised that Tiger's never won there, and Jack, obviously, I want to say when I played, I had Andy Martinez caddie for me a few few years out there, so I think Johnny Miller had probably won out there because he'd always you know, tell me stories about him hitting some cool shots into eighteen. And but you know, Bubba and Adam Scott maybe like statistically maybe not the best putters, but have also like wanted Augusta and won there like you know, some crazy greens with some big, big kind of slopes and contour kind of tilt on him that you know, kind of maybe lets you use your imagination more. And you know, you get so many putts that are kind of outside the hole there that it's just kind of a crap shoot, you know what I mean. You got to you got to use your imagination a bit more than like, Hey, it's you know, inside.

00:21:03
Speaker 2: Right all day and that's that's what you get.

00:21:06
Speaker 3: I would say, on a lot of normal tour courses, right, you get a lot of putts that are kind of inside the hole.

00:21:13
Speaker 2: But not not at Riviera. You know, you get a lot of.

00:21:16
Speaker 3: Putts that are very uncomfortable and you know, if you miss, they kind of get further away. And but yeah, I don't really know why, Uh, nothing really sticks out to me why certain people have not been successful there that are kind of, you know, the best in the world.

00:21:33
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean it could be the Kakula effect. I don't I don't really know, but we'll we'll talk about that later. But it's yeah, it's just something I've I've always kind of kind of wondered about let's get into some particular holes. So just to start off, is there a hole at Riviera that you think doesn't get enough play? Is there is there an underrated hole that you often think about.

00:21:57
Speaker 3: I want to say, uh, like the seventh hole is pretty cool. I always had a you know, that green was just kind of fell off in the right spots and the you know, the ground kind of got you into some trouble, you know, on the t shot, so that one kind of sticks out. You hear a lot about eight, obviously, and you hear a lot about six and ten. There's a couple holes on the back like maybe like thirteen or thirteen or something like that. That that's a pretty good one that you know, I'm not sure you hear a ton about. But I mean the cool thing about the course is like every hole is really really good and it's also an interesting course that it's like nothing makes them like.

00:22:51
Speaker 2: Outrageously hard, you know what I mean.

00:22:53
Speaker 3: It's not like you're, oh, you know, hazard lining the left side. I can't go there, you know, like the water hazard in front of the green or something. It's just where they can get the pins and you know where you.

00:23:07
Speaker 2: Have to be to kind of attack.

00:23:09
Speaker 3: Those places can kind of change from day to day and wind and you know how firm the golf course is playing, So it's it just I think it has kind of a lot of flexibility and you know, pretty versatile, you know, in what you have to do to score well and get balls close to the hole. But yeah, I would probably say seven is the one that comes to mind that I always thought was. It's not that long either, you know what I mean, And it feels like you can kind of screw that hole up pretty easily.

00:23:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you get in the wrong position around the green, you can you can get into some ridiculous spots. Yeah, seven is is mine too. I think that's my favorite hole on the course that this is actually what I've said traditionally, though there are other holes that would be in the running, but none that are sort of as unheralded as as seven. But it's this. It's this super interesting middle length to even on the shorter end for pros, especially par four running along that baranka that that lines one side of the property, so that baranka is on the right, and then there's this big fairway bunker kind of cutting diagonally in from the left into into the fairway, and the fairway kind of bottlenecks, and so you have to make a choice about where you're gonna where you're gonna play. And then the green is is pretty small, pretty pushed up, lots of interesting contours, runoffs, places you really don't want to be around it, and and so really it does help to kind of be as close as possible on your approach because you want to be able to get at the target. You don't want to miss anywhere around the green, but there is some risk in pushing your ball up. And it also helps to to kind of be a little it along the along the right side. There are maybe some trees that should come out to really open up that play, but that's maybe another subject. But yeah, it's it's like a it's a super interesting uh part four, isn't it is? Is that a hole where you I mean, do you hit driver there? What? What do you what's your approach there?

00:25:17
Speaker 3: I always hit driver, but I'm I'm on the you know, shorter side, so you definitely see people not hit driver. But it's kind of like the you know, it feels like the fair way over close to the bunker kind of kicks into the bunker a teeny bit, and like you said that, you know, you don't want to hug it down the right and get blocked out by the trees. You know, it's just got so much going on, and it's just like the fractional little things where it's like, oh, I'm just not in the right spot, or oh my ball just kicked in the bunker. Oh that pins just in the back left corner. I can't get at it from this angle. So I always thought that was just a super interesting hole. But you know, so many of the other ones out there, you know, can kind of fall in line with that as well.

00:26:10
Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by the new Cobalt QZ six slope rangefinder. The QZ six represents a significant leap in golf rangefinder technology. Most rangefinders have fixed magnification, but the Cobalt QZ six has an optical zoom feature ranging from six x to twelve X. So when you're on the golf course with the QZ six, you can just see your target better. You can identify your exact landing spot more clearly. You can assess the contours of the fairway or the green that you're hitting to. You can actually see the characteristics of the pin placement. All that stuff is pretty useful information and not something that you typically get with a rangefinder. In addition to Zoom, the QZ six has COBALT's proprietary sense and Surge technologies, which makes locking onto the flag fast and reliable, and it offers a total performance ranging from five to two thy five hundred yards, including six hundred plus yards to a pin and two thousand yards to a tree. This thing is built for golfers who prioritize accuracy, consistency trust in their equipment. Every Cobalt rangefinder is backed by a lifetime warranty and sold direct to consumer, ensuring uncompromising quality without the usual retail markup. So go to Cobalt dashgolf dot com and enter the code fried egg Pod fifteen for fifteen percent off. That's fried egg Pod fifteen at Cobalt dashgolf dot com. Check it out. All right, let's get back to my interview with Zach Blair. It kind of represents what you were talking about earlier, where there's no big flashy thing about seven. It's just the accumulation of all these little different difficulties and subtleties that end up making it like a tricky hole where you can really get into into some trouble. But you can also you can also just play it in the most boring way possible. You can hit the fairway and hit it within five feet and make bloody. I mean, there's nothing preventing you from doing that. But but once you get a little bit off the beaten track, it's it's tricky. So, speaking of which you've you've talked publicly about about the tenth hole before. This is the hole that most people will be most familiar with at Riviera, the short to driveable part four with the big necklace bunker and the fairway and the and the green that slopes off severely from kind of right to left slash kind of back to frontish and you know the ring of bunkers around the green. So, uh, take me through your your approach to to this whole. How do you how do you think through the way you attack number ten?

00:29:09
Speaker 3: I think the first handful of years I played it, I don't think you know, I don't like analytics and data certainly wasn't where it is today with you know, people kind of having hard numbers to to see like oh.

00:29:27
Speaker 2: Wow, it, you know, you definitely shouldn't lay up.

00:29:30
Speaker 3: So I think, you know, my first few years, I think you saw a lot more people kind of hit a iron or whatever and got a full number in, and towards the last couple of years I played, I think it was like rarely did you ever see anyone not kind of push it up at least like, uh, you know, maybe you would occasionally see like an aggressive layup where it was like a three wood to you know, to the left side or something like that. So my first couple of years I definitely laid up most of the time because I kind of couldn't get there unless it was kind of like perfect conditions. I couldn't have any wind. And that bunker, you know, if you hit it in that bunker, that's short left, like I don't know, fifty yards short left, Like that's not a great spot to be either. And if you I would say, I tend to kind of miss balls to the right, and if you miss anything right that's short of the green, you're basically chipping off the left side anyways, or you're going to hit it in the bunker short and then chip off into the left side. So I always kind of felt like, hey, if I could hit an iron over to ninety yards, I can get this on the green. But that became, I think a little more challenging than I thought, you know, and kind of I eventually saw the light of hey, I'm just going to blast one over there to the left and try and chip it on the green, and if I get lucky and keep one on, you know, in one, that's great. But I don't think I necessarily had a ton of success on that whole, you know, the handful of times that I've played at.

00:31:11
Speaker 1: Well so have have distance games and kind of analytics ruined the tenth hole at Riviera? Have they made it a less interesting hole in the in the past few years? Do you think?

00:31:25
Speaker 3: I think it's still super interesting because it's so severe, you know, it's just so penal If you kind of are in the wrong spot and you see a lot of really like crazy stuff around the greens, especially from you know, the best players in the world.

00:31:39
Speaker 2: You know, you see people putting it off.

00:31:41
Speaker 3: The green or chipping it, you know, into the back bunker, you know, and you're just kind of like, man, how can you not get that one close? But it's just the contours and the slopes around that green or are just so severe that I don't think it's less interesting, But you definitely don't see you know, you don't see really like the option, you know, the choice of somebody laying up, just because I think the numbers have like they're pretty black and white that it's kind of like, not, you know.

00:32:11
Speaker 2: This right play.

00:32:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not the right play to not just blash driver over to the left.

00:32:17
Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess what continues to make it interesting is kind of what you're gesturing towards that there's there's still this amazing range of potential outcomes. Yeah, when you blast it up around the green, and so it's still incredibly entertaining to watch because you don't know what's going to happen, like you and you see kinds of shots and kinds of outcomes that you you really don't see on any other hole on the PGA tour. But certainly the strategic aspect of the hole, the classic kind of Golden Age strategy of the hole, where where you're choosing between kind of hitting a conservative long iron a way out to the left and giving yourself a nice little wedge approach versus being more aggressive that's no longer there for the pros. It might be there for me if if I were to to play the hole, but but for the pros, it's it's, you know, it's kind of solved what what you should do. I think Justin Thomas may have been one of the one of the last holdouts because he's such a great wedge player. He just I think he figured until maybe last year or the year before, like I can just rely on my wedge game here, but but everybody else.

00:33:29
Speaker 3: Pretty much, it just takes. It takes one bad I can. You know, I'm a good wedge player, you know, it takes.

00:33:35
Speaker 2: It takes one bad eighty yard ledge back.

00:33:38
Speaker 3: Right, you know flag and you kind of catch one a little low and it skips into the back bunker and plugs, and you're kind of like, okay, I can get there in one instead of two, uh, you know. And and I think, honestly, like there's just more build up and build up and build up in that front kind of right bunker that just makes the you know, makes the pitch kind of towards the back just more severe and more severe every year that it really just like you're kind of saying, it's just not really worth.

00:34:10
Speaker 2: It anymore to do anything.

00:34:12
Speaker 3: And I think most people kind of hit it far enough now too that they can kind of take that bunker that's fifty yards short or whatever out of play pretty pretty easily. But I mean, it still really is, you know, such a fun hole to watch because you see two's and sevens and hole outs and long putts and people putting it into the bunker and spinning it off the green that you know, it's so severe that it's fun.

00:34:39
Speaker 1: That's the thing. It's it's you know, you might it might not hold up to the kind of classical strategic analysis anymore, but it's undeniably like that's the hole that you that you want to watch, yeah, when you're watching the tournament, And just to put a finer point on the timeline here, you played the tournament twenty fifteen through twenty seventeen, and that was kind of when this was starting to change, this shift that we're talking about from like half the field laying up to nobody laying up. That was right at the beginning of that shift. And you can see the story on shot Tracker and Shotlink over over time, like there's a remarkable kind of push of all the dots to the area around the green, and that has accelerated since you've played the tournament for sure, you know with ten, Like, I don't know if this was your action the first time you saw it, but the first time I saw that whole in person, the thing that stuck out to me was just the way that that green sits on that tilt. It almost looks like a skate park, like something you would see at a skate park as opposed to of golf course. Like it's really just so propped up there, and probably that kind of sand splash build up effect in the front right bunker that you're referring to has had an influence there. But it's just like, you know, sitting there on a big, big tilt, and that's the whole. That's the game of the hole, right, is like trying to figure out how to navigate that.

00:36:08
Speaker 2: Yeah?

00:36:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Well let's talk about some some other holes at at Riviera. Is is there another one? Like so we just talked about the kind of lost strategic aspects of ten. Is there a hole where where you think like some strategy is is still there where where you're where you're still kind of caught between caught between thought patterns and shot types and have to really make a tough decision.

00:36:36
Speaker 3: For me, eight was always kind of like, you know, do I go left or do I go right?

00:36:43
Speaker 1: I couldn't double fairway hole with the braaka cutting right up the middle right.

00:36:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, I you know there were again I kind of tend to lose it right a little more regularly, so I always was kind of scared to go down the left to hit it too are right into the branca and kind of lose my ball. But you know, there were certain pins where it was super advantageous to be on that side. So I mean that was one that you know, I haven't seen it in the last couple of years. They obviously didn't play it last year, but I would assume you still get a pretty even split on that whole, just based on people's comfort level of you know, where they want to be and you know what they're trying to kind of, you know, do on their approach shot, so that you know that one kind of comes to mind.

00:37:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would.

00:37:40
Speaker 1: Say eight is, and that again is one where the shot tracker kind of tells a story. It's one of the few holes on the PGA too are in general where you see different players taking different approaches and where pin position can can change the way that people which fair way they choose. There's still kind of a split. There's not you know, a solved strategy yet, which is definitely a credit to the whole. I do wish that some of the reshaping went a little bit differently there that they did, but the the strategy of the hole is, you know, once they restored that double fairway, it was it was pretty awesome. Is there a is there a hole that you that you'd like to see restored? I don't know if you've dug too much into the history of Raviera, but is there one where you're where you're you know, looking at the presentation of the hole currently and thinking, well, if they just made a tweak here or tweak there, and it would probably be a little bit cooler.

00:38:42
Speaker 2: For the par three is one that kind of jumps out.

00:38:46
Speaker 3: I don't know how different it is now versus you know, when they built it or whatnot, but it the way it plays right now, you can't, you know, you can't really work the ball in from the right side. I don't know if it's the grasses or the contours or shaping or whatnot. But you know, most people just kind of bang one long and you hope it stays on the back. So I you know that that seems to be like an easy one to jump to that It's like, I think there's probably some stuff they could do there to make it a little more interesting of a golf hole. And I'm trying to think there's there's probably some holes you know that if you added some length that would probably be more interesting. Like you know, if you could just snap your fingers and add fifty yards to number one or eighty r like you know whatever. You know, you'd probably see some different stuff going on there. But I mean they're still all really cool and you know, really fun to play.

00:39:56
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, of course, yeah. I mean the the bones are still there. But I mean one is for the pros. That's that's turned into a par four and maybe not that long of a par four, And it would be it would be interesting to see how those second shots would turn out if it were more kind of on the edge of the distance that that somebody could achieve in two shots. But yeah, going back to four. You know that four has been a big subject of discussion recently because it's it's pretty clear that you know, nobody's trying that that run up shot from the right, yeah, you know, and it's a This is George Thomas's version of a ra dan hole. The whole idea is that you do have the option of going straight for the green over the kind of front left bunker, but there's a nice big ramp feeding in from the right that you're also supposed to be able to use. But it's become I don't know if it's become harder to use or if it was always hard to use, but certainly if you look at it now, it's it's just not a very reliable shot to send it out there, because often it will get hung up, and if it doesn't get hung up, then it's probably going to run through the green. My theory is that, you know, this is the the combined effect of the cokuyu, which is a sticky grass in the in the run up to the green, so that you know, trying to use it as a as a ramp is a little bit tricky because you don't know if it's going to bounce or if it's going to stick, and then the green just being very very fast, right, So once you get onto the green, the ball is just going to keep running through, whereas back in the day, presumably the run up was faster and the green was slower, which which would have been a better combination for trying trying to use that run up shot. So that's at least my kind of working hypothesis. But but I'm curious in general when it comes to the cocua at at Riviera is does it does it change your approach at all? Did did it factor into your game plan? Did you use like different wedges or anything at rivi Era? What how did you experience that?

00:42:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, I never I never changed like equipment, you know for the grass, but you could definitely, you know, see it kind of playing a role in what was going on. And you know, pretty hard to bounce shots in. And there are definitely some holes that you know, you wish you would be able to cause there, at least for me again, I was I'm one of the shorter players. You know, there are a few kind of like four and a half holes out there that you're like, man, I got a long iron in like you know, I remember twelve kind of being pretty long and two being really long, thinking like man, it would be nice to be able to, you know, scoot a shot in here and four, and it's just not really you know, doesn't really allow that. And I also felt like the Cucuya kind of made driving it a teeny bit easier out there because it wouldn't kind of get away from you, and especially as you got into the rough, you know, you usually got pretty decent lies.

00:43:13
Speaker 2: And it kind of.

00:43:14
Speaker 3: Would almost be a little bit of a bumper and not allow you to kind of get into trouble. I always thought the place would be a little better of a test if it was kind of, you know, got the fairways like much wider and you know, let the ball kind of run into trouble, almost kind of like what they've done to Augusta in the last handful of years, kind of getting rid of that you know, second cut and letting balls kind of chase into.

00:43:40
Speaker 2: The trees a little deeper.

00:43:43
Speaker 3: But it's still the cucui You probably even if it was all fairway, you know, still might have a hard time doing some of that. So I don't know if they've ever wanted to change or thought about changing, but it seems like it's always kind of a discussion every year when when the turnam there.

00:44:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, my understanding is that it would be hard to change because Kakuya's is invasive and and really stubborn and and that kind of you know, once once it's there, it's yeah, it's kind of not leaving. But I'm sure that there's you know, if you look at for instance, l ACC North and bell Air, you know, the two other great George Thomas courses in LA I don't know how how recently you've played either of those, but the the Bermuda grass that they use in the fairways there is under the right conditions, very bouncy and and and very nice, you know, and in southern California recently kind of these new strains of Bermuda have proven pretty successful. So I just wonder how much Riviera would improve if they had the l A CEC grass or if they had the bel Air grass, if that would I don't know, is your experience of playing those other courses different from from Riviera and in that respect.

00:45:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think kind of what I was getting to before was like, you know, you would you would see a lot of like a more penal side to hitting it in the rough or balls kind of chasing and running away versus you know, kind of getting that just like perfect teed up you know, shot in the rough where you know you.

00:45:22
Speaker 2: Still lose a little bit of predictability.

00:45:24
Speaker 3: But when you get that kind of jumper out of the rough or or the ball really is kind of bouncing into trouble, you know that that plays like a big role into a couple of those places where where the ball is just kind of flying away from where you want it to be versus kind of sticking where you want it to be. So yeah, I think you know, you kind of nailed it with with those those other places can kind of tune it up to to get ripping, you know in the fairways where I mean you see that, you see that a teeny bit at Riviera, like when it gets really really firm. But I think it just takes such a more optimal you know run up to the event, plus you know, the four days of the tournament to to kind of get it to that spot. So yeah, I think it would be cooler if you if you had the Bermuda.

00:46:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean to be clear, like they do about as good a job with coquas as you can probably do. You know, I grew up playing on cocuta because I grew up in Southern California, so very familiar with it, and what you're saying about the ball kind of being teed up is totally true about cocua. It's actually kind of funny to go from playing on that kind of grass to firm fescue because it feels like you have less of a margin for error all of a sudden with your especially with your iron shots, because the cocuie it makes it feel like you can really go after the ball and there's almost like this sponge beneath there. Yeah, that will that will help you out a little bit. But uh yeah, I mean clearly with the ball on the ground. LACC North bel Air Valley Club of Montecito, I don't know if you've played there recently, but the turf there is unbelievable and it's like a Santa Ana hybrid Bermuda grass and it's just so so good and you're like, Wow, if Southern California golf could be like this all the time, then it would be absolutely amazing. And so yeah, I mean I kind of wonder what the future that is going to be. So I'm curious. You know, you've you've now gone through the process of helping to design and build your own golf course at the Tree Farm. You know, I remember when when you first came on my Radarzac in the kind of mid twenty tens as this this interesting PGA tour player who was also interested in golf course architecture and talked about golf course architecture in a compelling way. Now you're a lot more experienced right in the in the actual practice of building golf courses. Has that experience like changed your perspective at all on courses like Riviera? Do you look at those courses differently now? Do you see different things than you used to before you actually went through the Tree Farm process.

00:48:18
Speaker 3: Maybe a little bit just of you know, oh, kind of understanding from a construction standpoint of why they would maybe do certain things. I feel like I had a decent idea of you know, you know, water moving and kind of getting something from here to here, and.

00:48:38
Speaker 2: Why they would do certain things.

00:48:39
Speaker 3: But then you know, actually doing it and having someone like Kai, you know, be super helpful and really explaining why you don't want to do that here.

00:48:50
Speaker 1: And this is Kai goldby by the way, who was the construction head at the Tree Farm and definitely one of the industries leading instructuring gurus. Guy knows just knows what he's doing that it comes to building golf courses.

00:49:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think maybe just kind of a finer understanding of why certain things would be done, why they would put a bunker here, not put a bunker here. You know, why this slope on the green might do this. You know, from from my understanding from doing it and working with those guys, they're always kind of thinking about like where the water's going. So I don't know if I necessarily had that deep of an understanding of it initially. I feel like I kind of had an idea of some of that stuff before, but it definitely, you know, gets your kind of brain spinning, you know, seeing some really cool places after, you know, building the tree farm, and you know kind of going like wow, these guys were like super super with it. You know, they they definitely knew what they were doing even back then, So it's definitely cool to see those those great places.

00:50:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, towards the beginning of our conversation here, you did mention that that the way that water moves around Riviera Is is something that stands out to you. Are there any details there that that that you think of with Riviera, like what how how the drainage works. Do you have you noticed anything about that on the course.

00:50:24
Speaker 3: Well, obviously you have like all the all the barankas kind of you know throughout the golf course you.

00:50:30
Speaker 2: Know, on almost like almost the entire place. You know, you kind of see it. And I only played it.

00:50:40
Speaker 3: One of the years i played it, there was crazy, crazy storms and you kind of actually got to see it, you know, working where you really see kind of water running through there. Usually they're just kind of dry and you know, sandy and have grasses in them.

00:50:56
Speaker 2: But it's pretty kind of remarkable.

00:50:59
Speaker 3: It's to think that back then, you know, people were thinking that much about moving water, but they obviously they knew a lot. Not not thinking that they weren't smart or anything, they obviously knew what they were doing. So yeah, I want to say, I think I might have like a book on it, so I kind of read, you know, read about them building those for that kind of specific purpose, and it is cool to kind of see it in action.

00:51:31
Speaker 1: It's almost like a you know, the baranka on that one side of the property is sort of the main river in the system, and then you have all these different tributaries, yeah, winding through the holes and leading to that main baranca, which is a very natural way to do drain This is the way that drainage naturally happens on a landscape because the water kind of carves these little areas. And so maybe some of that was intact, was it was just kept there by to allow for the natural drainage, but clearly some of it was also built, and there was you know, there was an awareness that this is how it should function. It the water should be moving across the holes down to this main baranca system and then the brink eventually you know, goes down through the canyon and feeds out into the ocean. And so it's it's very sensible the way it works. But yeah, as you say that, I think I remember that year when when images were circulating of the kind of of the water moving through the golf course, and it's it's pretty cool to see that, isn't it.

00:52:32
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:52:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I just remember being out there because we were finishing one of the rounds and then we you know, got called off and had to come back the next morning. But like being out there that one day where it was like dumping and thinking like, man, how are they going to play like the next day, and then going out there and being like I can't believe there's not I can't believe, like we're golfing today and I can't believe the golf course is like dry, you know, I can't. I can't believe we're not just playing out of puddles everywhere, and being pretty amazed that, you know, seeing it the day before and kind of seeing everything run towards where they're supposed to go and and like you say, get to that kind of like main that that main Baranca where it kind of gets all taken away.

00:53:20
Speaker 2: But uh yeah, pretty.

00:53:22
Speaker 3: Pretty cool and definitely something that you know, always kind of stuck with me, you know, and and Kai kind of always talking about water moving and you know, surface draining and and everything like that is pretty pretty neat.

00:53:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, last question related to Riviera for you. You have ten rounds to split between Riviera and the other two big Thomas courses in l A, l ACC North and bel Air. How are you splitting those rounds?

00:53:56
Speaker 2: I've never played bel Air, h okay, but I've I've played.

00:54:00
Speaker 1: L A Okay well, maybe just between l A and and Riviera.

00:54:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think honestly both of them. There there's a there's very few of these like debates of of places that have that great of you know, two golf courses when you're talking like National and Shinnacock and riv and l A, and there's very few of them that I think are you know, I don't really care what somebody else says. I can kind of get down with h with their opinion. I think both of them are like really really good. And I would probably go like six four l A just because I think the way the golf course plays with the grasses and and the times I've played it, it's been just like so firm, and you know, you really you really have to think about where you're going to be, and just I think the green complexes from a shape standpoint are are maybe a little more kind of weird and wild and you see just some some different stuff. So I would probably go six four l A c C. But I know like tons of people that are like I would go seven three RIV And I'm kind of like, oh, you know, I totally I can totally see that, And I think just the aesthetic maybe at LACC, the kind of rugged, you know, just all the little details, is a little more thoughtful and kind of like my style versus RIVS. Maybe like a little more of corporate factories not the right like.

00:55:55
Speaker 2: Word, but you know, I mean it's a little it's just.

00:55:59
Speaker 3: A little bit of a different vibe. So I think that plays into it. But just like from.

00:56:04
Speaker 2: Golf hole to golf hole, a golf hole to golf hole.

00:56:07
Speaker 3: One through eighteen, I would probably say RIVS better, but I enjoy LACC a little more.

00:56:15
Speaker 2: That That's kind of a weird take, but you know that's my take.

00:56:18
Speaker 1: I no, I agree with one hundred percent of what you just said, because LACC, I mean, the big difference here is that la CC North went through a recent and very good restoration. Yeah, and Riviera just has I mean Corn Crenshaw worked there in the mid nineties, but there was only so much that I think they were allowed to do, and so la CC North is closer to what it what it needs to be, right, Yeah, Riviera is Riviera is not really there in that process. But the holes at Riviera are so good. The design is probably George Thomas's best design, and maybe maybe one of like top three, top five Golden Age designs period, Like, it's so brilliant, but it's just not you know, L A. C. C Has all that texture, right, they brought it back. Yeah, yeah, they brought back all that wonderful like California feel, and that's not there at Riviera, right yeah, and so it's just it's different that way, right Yeah, yeah, cool. All right, Well, thank you so much for coming on the Podzac. It's it's been very fun to talk to you about Riviera. Do you have any Do you have any plans coming up that people should be aware of. Are you seeing any cool golf courses coming up? Are you anything people should pay attention to.

00:57:33
Speaker 3: Heading down to South America to Argentina, going to see the Jockey Club for the first time, so I'm pretty excited about that. And then I don't know, haven't been to the Tree Farm in a few months, so kind of itching to get back there and you know, play some play some rounds out there.

00:57:51
Speaker 1: But Masters week is kind of approaching, so it's yeah, that's a big, big week for all those Ache and area courses exactly.

00:58:00
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:58:00
Speaker 3: But other than that, kind of just it's been crazy weather in Utah, Like you know, the golf courses have been open all winter, so it's been kind of easy to stay here. And you know, even though it's a little chilly Sundays, it's still you know, five minutes away right down the street to go play with some friends. So nothing major on the horizon for me.

00:58:22
Speaker 1: Very cool, all right, Thanks for coming on, Zach.

00:58:24
Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks.

00:58:31
Speaker 1: This episode of Designing Golf was produced by Will Balsam. Thank you Will. If you like these kinds of deep dives into particular golf courses, then make sure to join Frida Egg Golf Club go to the Frida Egg dot com slash membership. One of the things that we offer in FEGC is weekly course profiles, so written pieces on golf courses that we think are interesting, along with great photos taken by our team here at Friday Golf. So FUGC is a lot of fun. It's a great community that we're building of avid golfers in there, so come join us. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back again soon with another episode.