Late-Round Perspectives: Pat Fitzmaurice

00:00:00
Speaker 1: Pat fitz Morris is a managing editor for Fantasy Pros and Betting Pros. He's a Milwaukee native, a Wisconsin Badger, a proud dad, and he loves his packers. Everyone should wish him a happy birthday too. These are his late round perspectives. Is today your birthday?

00:00:30
Speaker 2: It is my birthday?

00:00:31
Speaker 1: Okay, Now I feel terrible that you're recording sort of late round perspectives on your birthday.

00:00:37
Speaker 2: Hey man, it's you know, birthdays don't mean much this time of year. It's a pretty mundane day. It's at work and then like you know, getting some dinner with the family. I think my daughter's making something for dessert. But yeah, man, don't worry about it.

00:00:53
Speaker 1: Well, happy birthday, man, Thanks for spending your birthday with late round perspectives. Really appreciate it. I like to start these shows off by sort of allowing the listener to understand the guest a little bit better. To understand your background, what you've done in your past, how you've become a fantasy football analyst, all that good stuff. You have an extensive journalism background, which I found very interesting. How did you become a fantasy football analyst? Aka? The Coolest definitely not nerdiest job in the world.

00:01:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, this job where every day the morning shave is optional. It's not a bad thing. So okay, I'll try not to make this too windy, and you can interrupt as needed if you want to drill down on anything. But yeah, you know, so, like my buddy is on I when we were kids, we were all like sports nerds and just lived for sports. And I mean the thing that would like get me out of bed every day was like the sports section of the newspaper. It was still the old school newspaper era, and you know, like running downstairs to open the front door and get that paper and read the sports section was like just nirvana to me. So that sort of cultivated an interest in sports journalism, and I kind of decided early on that I wanted to be a sports writer at some point. And then, as luck would have it, my maternal grandmother got remarried. She my grandfather had died when I was really young, and the guy that she got married to was the former sports editor of the Milwaukee Journal and had been the Green Bay Packers beat writer for the Milwaukee Journal during the Vince Lombardi era. Wow. So yeah, so this guy. His name was Chuck Johnson, and you know, Chuck and I hit it off, and you know, told me some great stories about like, you know, Vince Lombardi once physically threw him out of a Christmas party, and you know, like he got yelled at in the Olympic Village once by Howard Cosell. Like he had these great stories, and he also was like really into I don't know, he had a way of talking to me about like the English language and like the rules of the road of journalism and doing it without being in too much of a lecturing way. So I was kind of interested in hearing about all these things. And like there are certain pet peeves he had that soon became my pet peeves. So anyway, yeah, I was on the journalism track, got to the University of Wisconsin Madison, became a journalism major, worked at the one of the two student newspapers, eventually became an entertainment section editor. And then I was out of college for a couple of years and I was working at a chain of suburban newspapers, like weekly suburban newspapers in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and I'm doing like news and I had this good friend from high school in college who was trying to get me to move down to Chicago. And you know, back to the newspaper thing. This was when people still look for jobs in the want ads of newspapers, and he saw one for Pro Football Weekly looking for an associate editor. Took the time to clip it out of the newspaper and mail it to me like snail mail it to me. So I get this, i apply for the job, and I end up getting it, and so yeah, moved down to Chicago and I'm working for Pro Football Weekly, and that was my first professional job in the sports media. Now that was like maybe fifteen to twenty percent fantasy, although although fantasy was probably eighty to eighty five percent of what we talked about in the office during the day. But yeah, so it was just more like NFL coverage for this, you know. Was we called it a magazine, but it was more like a tabloid style newspaper. And so I was there for two years. It was a dream job accepted, didn't pay enough for me to live on, so I had to leave and take another job in Chicago, and I left on good terms and one of the higher ranking editors asked me, if I want to do some freelancing and fantasy football, and I said sure, so, like starting in god, I think it was two thousand, JJ I was. I started doing weekly fantasy rankings in the year two thousand and writing like a weekly fantasy column, and just I freelanced for PFW for a long time, and then they went under in like twenty twenty thirteen, I believe. So then I'm like, all of a sudden homeless for content. And Melissa Jacobs, the owner and proprietor of a site called The Football Girl, like tweeted something upon the announcement that PFW was going under and folding that she was going to miss it, and she was especially going to miss my fantasy stuff. So I got to thinking, like a month or so later, I reached out to Melissa and asked if she might want fantasy content on The Football Girl, and you know, she said yes, and we became content partners. So that's where my rankings and are goals would be. And you know, Melissa's great, one of my favorite people on the planet. We become really good friends, you know, And I was there until Fantasy Pros offered me a position in twenty twenty one. You know, I'd gotten to know some of the people at Fantasy Pros, including you know, our mutual friend, the late great Mike Tagliire, and you know, Tags had become a good friend and golf buddy, and you know, I was really excited about the chance to work with Tags. This was like, my hiring was pretty much right after he got sick, and the assumption was always that he was going to come out of it and you know, I'd get to work with Tags and it would be great. And unfortunately that didn't happen. He didn't make it, and I don't know, man, we're still trying to soldier on without Tags. But it's like the more time you spend around the people who worked with him and were friends with him, like it just makes you appreciate how special a guy he was, Like he just he did have that inner light, like he was the pied piper. People were just totally drawn to Tags. So anyway, that's the journey. And yeah, JJ, I mean, if you had told me early in my professional career that I was going to eventually leave the world of traditional journalism for a job in fantasy football, I would have thought that meant that I would be like unmarried, broke or nearly broke, and probably living in my mom's basement. Yeah, because like what I didn't see coming was that by the year of Our Lord twenty twenty three, newspapers would be almost dead, no one would read them anymore, and like your aunts would be in three fantasy leagues. Like it's been, the tectonic plates have shifted in ways I never could have imagined.

00:07:47
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you think that a traditional journalism major like yourself or others in journalism, maybe not so much any more necessarily, but probably still to some degree sort of down on a job like this, Like like, do you think that part of that feeling that you feel of I can't believe this is you know where I'm at. I think that you know, you and I both at this point in our lives, feel very comfortable with what we're doing, and you know, like like like you you do have those like existential moments though of like man, I'm I'm analyzing a game about a game for a living right now, and it's a little bit like am I am I wasting this in a way? Right? Like am I am? I? Am I doing something right now where it's just not that important. I've talked about that on the show plenty of times, where it's like there's doctors, there's lawyer, there's all these perfections where they're doing things that can very directly impact the world in that way. And I think that a lot of people in journalism probably feel that way too, where there's this hope to be able to really portray stories and tell stories that people wouldn't otherwise see that are very very important to the world. And then here we are sitting here talking about you know, random backup running backs who may or may not play in week fifteen, you know, And so is part of the feeling that you're feeling of like looking back on your journey that or is it just more so I can't believe this industry exists the way that it exists.

00:09:14
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, it's sort of the disbelief that it exists the way it exists. And now, I mean there's so many really talented people yourself, you're certainly a top that list, and do it like people doing extraordinary work. Now, so it isn't like, you know, oh, I couldn't hack it as a beat writer for the Cincinnati Bengals, so I'm doing fantasy football instead. Like people are choosing to go into this profession. And yeah, like I feel like it's been now probably a couple of decades since people were looking down their nose at the fantasy people. Yeah, and it's just like the proliferation of this industry has just been crazy. I mean like it was just ten years ago that we were all kind of joining Twitter for the first time. All of a sudden, you know, look at us now.

00:10:03
Speaker 1: So the other thing I wanted to ask, the other thing part of that that first answer with your your your step grandpa, if you will, you know who was the beat reporter? So you were in Milwaukee? Yeah, and I'm this is partially my ignorance, but what is the split in Milwaukee between like, is is the majority of Milwaukee is you obviously became a Packers fan. But was that sort of skewed because of him? Or was it that Milwaukee is just is just naturally a Packer city? Because isn't it isn't it geographically closer to Chicago than it is Green Bay? Or is it like split or is it closer? I could be completely again, Look, I'm from the fake Midwest city of Pittsburgh. Now I live in Charlotte, North Carolina, So I could be way off here, but I'm curious, like what that split is, and if that that grandfather of yours was a reason as to why you became the Packers backer.

00:10:55
Speaker 2: I was sort of born and raised a Packers fan, and Milwaukee is definitely Packers country, even though it's roughly equidistant between Green Bay to the north and Chicago to the south. Like it's interesting if you get to the Illinois Wisconsin border towns and there you will drive through some of those and you'll see like Bears gear on on one front lawn and Packers flags on another. So you know, it's a bit of a like more ambiguous fandom down by the state line. But you know, you get north of like Kenosha, Melvin Gordon's hometown, and you know it's it's pretty much all Packer.

00:11:35
Speaker 1: Fanom Okay, So it's it's a state thing. You know, you gotta you gotta, you gotta stick with the state, which makes a lot of sense. It's it's very very logical. I was just curious if there was a more of like a sixty forty seventy thirty type split. But it sounds like because I've never been to Milwaukee before, but it sounds like it's very much a Green Bay heavy city. The other thing I was talking about with Guess is what their sort of weekly process is, Like, you know, I obviously am very numbers driven with the way that I analyzed the game, but I one hundred percent believe in the people who are very good at watching film and who can weave that into their analysis pretty seamlessly. I try to to some degrees. I think it's important to have a little bit of both. But what's your sort of weekly process? Like, you know, we're ending the season here in the next few weeks, which I think both of us are probably a little bit relid by, but you know, the season coming to an end. What was this season like for you from just a process a weekly standpoint of watching games and then analyzing them.

00:12:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's it. So I think people should, whether they work in this business or are just avid fantasy players, I think people should try to drink it all in as much as possible. Like, I'm not a film grinder, but I definitely think there is value to watching as many NFL games as you can, and like, heck, some college football too if possible. I mean, That's why part of the reason I was sort of, i know, maybe overweight on Devon Hchan this year was because I kind of fell in love with him watching Texas A and M games, and Texas A and M games were kind of a hard watch other than Han last year, but just seeing that dude's speed and contact balance, like, I felt like he could be another Warwick Done type and it's been fun to see it kind of happen at the NFL level. I don't really use math the way that you do, JJ, but like I do consume a great deal of statistical content, Like I'm you know, constantly throughout the week living with about twelve different tabs open on my computer various sites. And I know most people don't have the time to do this sort of research that we do because this is our job, but people can consume the work of the fantasy analysts who are doing this, like looking through all these numbers every week and synthesizing the data and trying to come up with takeaways and give it back to people in articles and podcasts. So I mean that's part of my process too, JJ, Like I love reading other people's work and listening to other people's podcasts, and you know, although sometimes listen to music while I'm working, a lot of the times I've got other people's podcasts on, you know, your show, the CBS guys, the Yahoo guys like Chris Harris, like a lot of different I mean, I'll make the rounds of like twenty or thirty different podcasts now and again, like not very few of them religiously like every episode, but it's it's fun to hear different people's takes and perspectives. So yeah, man, like I don't have the answers all the answers, not even close. So I really do enjoy getting different perspectives from a lot of different people, and you know, sometimes their takeaways like seep into my own, like if I think their reasoning is spot on, like I can be persuaded on certain players.

00:15:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really interesting. That's really interesting because I think that a lot of the people that I've talked to, at least on late Round perspectives kind of go with the opposite like like for me personally. And this is no shade to any fantasy analysts out there, whether it's you guys at Fantasy Pros or the guys at ETR or you know, you mentioned Chris Harris, all these different angles that people are coming at this from. I don't really consume other people's content and season only because when I'm working, I have a very hard time focusing on the actual task at hand whenever I have these other voices that are going on. And that's why I mean, my my my Spotify rapped is is literally just like instrumental music like every single year, because I'm just listening to the album Leaf or Explosions in the Sky all day long, you know, while I while I try to focus on the stuff at hand. So it's really really interesting. It's I don't think there's a right or wrong answer for the record. I just think it's really interesting that you're literally in the opposite bucket where you're consuming all of that. I think that that's probably really good from the perspective that you're not letting anything sort of slip through the cracks, you know, like you believe you do, like waiver Wire stuff and like a Waiver Wire column with the guys over Fantasy Pros each week, and with me with the Waiver Wire stuff, I'm always I always have this feeling like am I missing someone? Like is there someone that that I you know, like because there's a lot of players that we're analyzing, right, and so I guess like from your standpoint, if you're getting it from so many different angles like that, you're not gonna miss out on one of those Waiver wire players. Whever you're putting that type of content together. Is that is that part of like how you're absorbing that info and then sort of utilizing that info.

00:16:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, that does help. I mean yeah, like Waivers, I've got sort of my own like uh net system for trying to like make sure that I've got everyone. But yeah, just just for a lot of things, like I'm definitely convinced by compelling arguments, and I like hearing these arguments great, I know what you mean about like working. I'll sometimes I'm sort of half listening to a show and I'll like catch part of something enough to be like, wait, who were they just talking about? You know, like yeah, part of a sentence will sort of hook me and I'm like, wait a second, I didn't hear who they're actually talking about. I need to go back and rewind this.

00:17:15
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's very interesting though. So the season's almost done, Like I said, we're we're now in the fantasy playoffs. Very fun time of year, you know, a lot of our It's nice to like get rid of the dead weight that we had, you know, the teams that we just you know, we're just dead after like week four. Now we're just like all right, all right, those those teams never existed. Do you think there's any big trend you know that you that you saw this year that you think might change fantasy football drafts in twenty twenty four?

00:17:42
Speaker 2: Oh man, Well, j J. I don't want to reliticate, relitigate the case for zero RB, you know, because we could turn this into a three episode show if we did that. But so let's let me try to phrase this a little differently. The case for emphasizing wide receivers over running early in your fantasy drafts, in a nutshell, I think is that high end running back production often comes from unexpected places, and it's hard to find high end wide receiver production in unexpected places later in the draft. So let me rattle off. And I've got a note here on this. The preseason eightyps of some of the running backs who ranked inside the top twenty five in PPR scoring going into Week fourteen. I'm using week fourteen, because I wrote something about this and I've been too lazy to update it for another week of action. But so these were the preseason ADPs of some guys who are currently or a week ago in the top twenty five. Rashad White running back twenty seven, Alvin Kamara running back twenty eight, DeAndre Swift running back twenty nine, Isaiah Picheko running back thirty David Montgomery running back thirty one, Brian Robinson running back thirty five, Raheem Moster running back forty. Now it starts to get interesting. Jalen Warren AREB forty six, Gus Edwards ARE sixty one, Zach Moss RB sixty six, Jerome Ford RB sixty nine, Kyron Williams RB seventy one. So that's twelve out of twenty five. That's forty eight percent of the guys who were top twenty five PPR scores were drafted beyond RB two range. Meanwhile, at wide receiver, the only guy's top twenty five in PPR Fantasy scoring who had ADPs outside the top forty at the position, Courtland Sutton, who was barely outside at wide receiver forty one. Adam Thielen wide receiver fifty three, Nico Collins wide receiver fifty six, Tanked Dell wide receiver seventy four, and Pukin Nikua wide receiver ninety And we both know JJ that like Tanked Dell and Pukin Nikuah are complete unicorns. Yeah, you just do not see guys. Day three rookies have that sort of rookie year impact. Like it's just a Hayley's Comet type occurrence. So like what you get is what you pay for at wide receiver, and meanwhile at running back, guys come out of the ether all the time to be like impactful fantasy guys. I mean where people are racing to pick up ty Chandler this week, and you know that he was a complete afterthought in August.

00:20:14
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah. The other thing too, with the guys you just mentioned at wide receiver, you had Tank Dell and Nico Collins. C. J. Shroud is kind of a unicorn too. I mean he's having arguably, you know, top five like rookie quarterback season. Ever, I mean, I don't know if that's even hyperbole. I mean he's he's been that good and so that's obviously going to elevate those guys, and then Adam Thielen, you know, is now dropping off a little bit, you know, you know, you know, basically the start of his seasons was really booing a lot of those numbers for him. Yeah, I mean the research that I did and that i've done in like the late Round Draft Guide over the last couple of years, and you know, I've did this research beyond that too. But it's very clear and evident that your typical RB two. So even if you just you know, forget about round taken, because the round that these guys go is going to fluctuate based on the draft that you're in. Just look at positional rank from an ADP perspective. If you look at RB twos, so I'm talking RB thirteen to twenty four RB twos versus RB threes historically really not that much of a difference in terms of their actual production how they end up performing. If you look at how they perform versus ADP expectation, the RB threes are way way better bets to make than the RB twos. This is where the running back dead zone idea really comes to fruition and why it exists. You know, you can make arguments for sure, you know, with you know, I think with like modified zero RB, where you get you know, the anchor anchor RB, whatever you want to call it, where you get like a Christian McCaffrey. Like, no one's arguing that Christian McCaffrey is not the most valuable player in fantasy right now. But it's the idea that you're not just going to have the one oh one per se and it's the idea that a lot of these running backs, like you said, are coming out of the woodwork late all the time, and this happens very, very frequently. I don't think that this is going to change, like I don't think you usually I look at a crazy trend because this isn't really to me. I think it's one of those things where we might see more of the masses step into zero RB as we go on year after year after year. But this is still one of those things that should be fairly static from like a strategy stampoint a strategic standpoint, because just logically, the way that the game works, in the way that the NFL is working, it does make sense to structure your drafts, you know, in that way. And so usually when there is a trend that exists in one year. I tried to I overanalyze it almost to see if this is a trend that I can zig when others are zagging, you know, where people are just so reactionary, you know, look at all the quarterback stuff from I comped this year's quarterback season to the one that happened in twenty eleven to twenty twelve, where twenty eleven had crazy quarterback numbers. Twenty twelve everyone started drafting quarterbacks really really early, and then they all sort of bottomed out right. This season it was a little bit different because of the rushing floor that some of the quarterbacks gave you, but even still, it was one of those season where last year was somewhat of an outlier at the quarterback position in terms of how much of a separation we got from Mahomes, Allen Jalen Hurts, and we saw that shrink a little bit this year. You know, we and people are reactionary, where we saw adp rise at quarterback from twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three. And so I do try my best to zig when others are zagging, because that's where you can really create these monster teams. But I think you're right where this isn't even a zig when others are zagging. This is just a structurally a smart way to draft overall.

00:23:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, we could probably play this game where I rattle off that list of top when you got five guys who were drafted outside RB two range like every year, and it would always probably be I don't know if it would be as many as twelve every year, but it would probably be pretty close to that. One more thing I'll mention Jjlake. For years, I feel like in spring and summer we have tried to talk ourselves into the tight end position being deep, and then every year we get into the fall and it's like, oh man, tight end's not deep at all. It's just a complete designs of a position. Now I feel like, for the first time in a long time, it's actually like we do have legitimate stepths. Just this wave of good young tight ends who've been coming into the league. Sam Laporta, Dalton Kincaid, Trey McBride, et cetera, et cetera. Brock Bauers is going to be a top ten draft pick next year, and we'll be a top ten fantasy tight end. So I think it's gonna mean there's less incentive to target guys like Travis Kelcey and Mark Andrews in the early rounds of drafts next year. But like we're probably going to be entering the strange new world jj of the fourth round tight end next year, like where I think we're going to see a lot of guys. I don't know, I've just tried to sort of mock drafts some things in game it like, I think the fourth is where we're going to see a lot of dudes like kincaid and uh McBride and these guys falling like fourth maybe into the maybe into the fifth.

00:24:54
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:24:55
Speaker 2: So and normally like that's sort of the uh that's been like the forbidden zone end. It's not where you want to live exact. I think that's where a lot of these dudes are going to go next year.

00:25:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, look, it's interesting too. I talked about this with Barons a little bit, but even since talking to Andy about the tight end landscape, we've seen, you know, Travis Kelcey not be his dominant self over the second half of this season, and you know, now we have Mark Andrews and his injury. You know, George Kittle's always been this just up and down roller coaster given the offense and all the other weapons that they have in that offense. And so not only are we getting this influx of young talent, and you mentioned Bowers too entering the picture, but the high end of the tight end position, the Travis Kelcey's of the world. You know, when we project into twenty twenty four, I don't know how we project him being. You know, my take can change, just to be clear, we're talking in December right now for a twenty twenty four season. But I don't know how we can confidently sit here and say Travis Kelcey's gonna be tremendously better in twenty twenty four, a year older than he was in twenty twenty three. You know, I mean it's possible, for sure, but but I don't know how we can confidently say that to the point where I'd be pretty shocked if he's a first round pick next year in fantasy football. So I think that what we're seeing then is this, you know, sort of like like what we saw with quarterback or what we've seen with quarterback before, where once you get enough options say this all the time. Once you you know, the dual threat quarterbacks in particular. You know, once we got twelve of them, or once we get twelve of them, we can wait forever on a quarterback because we know that we're in a twelve team league. We're gonna be able to get one of these guys. And if the same exact thing happens at tight end, which, like you said, we get this great influx this year, not just from the rookies, but you get a second year guy and Trey McBride. Now all of a sudden, we're eight nine tight ends deep, where any of these guys could be a top two or three finisher. What's the point in getting a Travis Kelce in round one? Even maybe in round two?

00:26:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we might there might be enough where it's like twelve guys were satisfied with, in which case you can wait, and then it probably is silly to take a fourth round tight end.

00:26:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. So now we're in the Fantasy playoffs. Are there any mistakes that you think that that managers make each year? This is a mail bag question I get almost weekly in December, is what should I change now that it's the Fantasy playoffs? Like do you have a straight answer for that?

00:27:14
Speaker 2: Oh, good lord. Overmanaging and overthinking, like don't change things like that's that's the issue. I mean, people were benching Lamar Jackson because of the bad weather forecast for Rams Ravens, like, don't do those things, man like weather. It's more often than not a big nothing burger. And it certainly wasn't that game. I mean, like we saw spiked offensive production in that game. Yeah, like that's it. People just people so want to feel like they are physically pushing their teams across the finish line that I think it causes people to try to like overthink things and come up with rationales, rational and reasoning for making irrational decisions and pushing up guys and like plucking out strange angles to justify starting Keaton Mitchell over DeAndre Swift where it's just like yeah, I mean like you can probably look at those two in their stat lines and their game film and like spin some sort of yarn where Keaton Mitchell is like the better play, but like really he's not the better play. I mean, just follow the usage, right, and so just don't overthink it, don't overmanage it. Yeah, I mean you can still lose. Things can go wrong, your guys can underperform, but like getting cute is not the way to go about it.

00:28:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've gotten the question too about like start your like are you a start your studs person? To me? Start your studs feels just like a not a real thing. To me. It's just your studs are your best players, So start your best players. You know, I don't I think that that there is a psychological component here where you know, make decisions that you can live with, you know, be process oriented, and then when you look at it after the fact, make sure that you say to yourself, Okay, when I made that decision, it was a logical decision, and that's all I can ask for, you know. But I think the people, like you said, there might be a little bit of an overthinking of even just doing that. And I get the question again about the start your Studs stuff. Do you think that's sort of like I'm assuming your process for start sit is the same in weeks fifteen, sixteen, and seventeen as it is in weeks three, four and five.

00:29:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I mean I guess I'm not ultimately a start your Studs guy. I generally am going to start the Studs because I think the usage, the usage, and the talent in most cases points you to the Studs. But there can be some circumstances that might steer me away from, say, I don't know Jalen Waddle this weekend against the Jets, right because like it's this murderous matchup where the Jets don't give up much to passing games. You know, the Miami offensive line is kind of like dealing with all these injuries, so Wattle might not be like Tua might not get the time for Wattle to do any business downfield this weekend. So you know, like, for for me, Wattle's like a high end wide receiver three this week, and though I would consider him pretty close to that stud class, I might consider starting someone who normally I would not start ahead of him, someone like I don't know Za Flowers, or you know, a player I consider a lesser player, Rashi Rice. I mean, I think Wattle is a much better receiver than Rashi Rice, but I think i'd start Rice this week just because of the headwinds blowing against Wattle this week.

00:30:40
Speaker 1: You know, you just mentioned Za Flowers and I have to bring up our our auction draft at The King's Classic. When we were we were battling. Pat and I were on opposite ends of the room and I gave him a little look when Flowers was was up for auction, and uh yeah, that was a fun time going back and forth and I ended up getting him. But that team. I don't know if you saw this or not, So the scores were tabulated as to who had the best overall score of the fourteen teams and the two leagues that we played in. I didn't make the playoffs and one of the two only one team made the playoffs, and both only one person made it in both leagues. I missed out and the auction by one game, by by twelve points essentially to be able to make it in both leagues. And that was the team obviously that had Ze Flowers. But I was very, very frustrated because that team has Bjohn Robinson. As much as I tell people, don't let one game, one performance say that that's the reason why you know, X, Y, and Z happened, you know, to your fantasy team. B John Robinson had the headache game, had the sickness game. And it's very frustrating looking back and saying I would have made the playoffs. Had we've just known what was going on and that's I could have even benched him for someone else, it would have been better. But yeah, that was a that was a really fun time doing that auction again.

00:31:57
Speaker 2: Oh my, that was a blast. I mean you, I felt like you came from Charlotte to kentt Ohio strictly to put me on tilt at that auction because you were just like vexing me the entire time, and then when it wasn't you, it was like you were you were tag teaming with like oh man, Ryan mcdowellan Eric Dickens were like, I forget which player I was bidding on against someone else, and finally they dropped out. And then McDonald Dickens, who hadn't been bidding on this player at all, after I thought, I've just submitted the winning bid, like jump in and wind up taking the guy from me. Hutchinson Brown was in my case. Yeah, but about that about that league? Jj uh. So we do the Snake Draft and the Auction drafty these two drafts back to back, and at one point through seven weeks, both of my teams were one and six, and I'm like, oh my god, this is so embarrassing, Like, are they gonna even invite me back next year? I'm doing so badly that auction team. I've won seven straight games and I made the playoffs.

00:32:53
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're the reason that I'm not in the playoffs in the Auction League.

00:32:56
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I caught fire in the Auction League and uh squeaked into the play.

00:33:01
Speaker 1: AFT's well, I love those stories. I hope that look after the Za flower stuff, even though he's gonna crush in the fantasy playoffs. I hope that you win the Auction League. I hope that that comes back, good karma comes back, you end up getting that w It would be a great story.

00:33:16
Speaker 2: It would be awesome.

00:33:18
Speaker 1: So obviously this is sort of team dependent in some way. But another question I get is sort of just bench management and how you handle that during the fantasy playoffs. Are you someone who more so is looking at a look ahead defense in the fantasy playoffs? Are you looking at running back handcuffs instead? Look I these types of questions. I know there is not one definitive answer, but how are you just generally managing and handling your fantasy rosters this time of year? Right?

00:33:46
Speaker 2: You're right about it being team dependent, like because I've got, say there's one team I have where I just rolled Yatzi at running back, where I've got like Tony Pollard and Jonathan Taylor is not even playing h and Kay Williams and I forget someone else. But like I never dealt away any of the strength because I always had like a couple of those guys hurt and now other than Taylor, they're all healthy. But like I'm not going to get Royce Freeman because like Royce Freeman is never going to crack my starting lineup even if you know, like Kyron Williams could break his arm, and I'm still not going to play Royce Freeman the rest of the way. So but generally, JJ, I share your philosophy on handcuffing, Like I don't draft handcuffs because I don't want to dedicate two roster spots to the running back position on one team. It's just like that's robbing you of one chance to strike gold somewhere else, right with with the roster spots. So but man, like the handcuffs, I do think around Thanksgiving time, I mean, we have a joke about this on the Fantasy pros Waiver podcast stuff and in cuff and season Thanksgiving like that, that's the time to go out and get your handcuffs if you need them, if it would do you good to you know, lock down that one team's running back position. So I'm not opposed to carrying a second defense this time of year, especially if the culture in your league is one of hoarding defenses late in the season. I know a lot of people do that. I'm willing to carry a second quarterback in a one QB league, something I'm generally not going to do during the season. Same with the second tight end. So yet you nailed it in saying that it's pretty team dependent. Basically, I just want to make an attempt to safeguard whatever vulnerabilities my particular team might have.

00:35:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the culture thing is incredibly important. You know. I do live Q and A's with my Patreon every week, and one of the things that people say is should I add this other quarterback? Because you know I have quarterback X who has a bad matchup? Should I add this other quarterback off the waiver wire this week? And then they list off the quarterback's names or they say should I drop this guy? Let's say, you know, let's say they add Jared Goff or something, and let's just pretend GoF has this horrific playoff schedule, and they're like, should I drop GoF for X Y and Z. Well, if the X Y and Z is Desmond Ritter and Zach Wilson. The answer to that is no, don't do that. And it's also telling me as an analyst trying to answer that question that your league is probably hoarding quarterbacks if it's a single quarterback twelve team league, right, Whereas if they're saying, hey, Matthew Stafford, Sam Howe, and they're naming all these guys who are fringe, not all I mean Stafford and how both this week could be in great spots. But you know these guys who are just generally high end QB twos, maybe even fringe QB ones that are sitting on your waiver wire that I'm going to say, feel free to drop this quarterback who's a mid range QB two for those guys, because there's plenty of quarterbacks available and people clearly aren't hoarding them. The exact same logic applies for defenses, right where if the rams are on your waiver wires, still right, now, if you know the Bills or the Broncos what have you, who are in great spots in week sixteen and seventeen. That means that teams in your league really aren't hoarding those positions, and so you don't need to necessarily prioritize that. Whereas you know that running backs are valuable, and if a guy goes down, you know, if if Rico Dowdle's on your waiver wire, everyone knock on wood right now because we cannot afford a Tony Pollard injury. But you know, if Rico Dowdle's on your waiver wire, probably makes sense just go that route as opposed to stashing the defense. So that's a really good point with the with the culture stuff speak of stashing. If you had one player that you would stash right now for the stretch run, and this could be injury dependent, it could be anything. Who would that one player be.

00:37:35
Speaker 2: Well, I had one guy like this and it was Josh Palmer, and so the whole broken index finger for Justin Herbert really wasn't part of that plan. Otherwise, I think that that stash plan would have worked out really well for my lighter teams at wide receiver now. Man, Like, just off the top of my head, I'm gonna say Chase Brown just because if now, like he is clearly emerged as the obvious handcos to Joe Mixon and like looks really good. Now, I don't think he has any standalone value right now, even though he made those two big plays in the passing game last week. But like, he showed me something. He was a high performer at Illinois when he was there, showed he could handle a huge workload. I mean, like Brett beelim On ran him into the ground his final year at Illinois. So if anything happened to Joe mix and he could be the guy who steps in and immediately gets twenty touches a week down the stretch. So like that's kind of a guy I want to have. In goodness, if I were the Joe Mixon owner, I would definitely want Chase Brown.

00:38:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, something him. Something else that I think is really pertinent to the running back handcuff discussion is that if we are analyzing schedules and you know, upcoming outlook for these running backs like a DeAndre Swift, for instance, he goes back to back games against really tough defenses, but their schedule really opens up during the Fantasy Playoffs.

00:38:55
Speaker 2: Right.

00:38:56
Speaker 1: One of the things that I talked about on fifteen Transactions earlier this week was kend of Gainwell to me becomes a more attractive handcuff because we know that this schedule for Philadelphia is really favorable. I'm not saying that standalone gain Well is someone that I want to start, but as a handcuff in that category, I'm gonna like him a little bit more. Same with a Tyler Algeer type. Right. Bjon Robinson has arguably the best schedule in the Fantasy Playoffs, and if he ends up going down again, everyone please knock on wood as hard as you possibly can right now. But if John Robinson were to go down, Tyler Algieer, I do think Cornerhill Patterson would be involved in such and it wouldn't be as clean, but it would be a pretty great spot for him to be in because the schedule is so nice. So that's another thing to really think about with the with the handcuff uffs. Chase Brown's a great call out. Though I thought that he was a really fun and interesting prospect that the biggest negative for me analytically was his age. Because he came out a little bit older, but he was explosive, like he's he tested really well, he looks explosive. We've already seen him. Look really, I mean, he looks more explosive than Joe Mixon, that's for sure. And so I do think that he's a very very interesting player. All right, let's move on to some player analysis stuff, because there's some some interesting stories going around in the NFL, including Cooper Cup, who all of a sudden had a big outing in a tough spot against Baltimore. But that Rams offense look good. Are you finally feeling okay about Cooper Cup? Are we? I mean, obviously, great great spot for this Rams offense this week, But do you think he's gonna be super reliable for fantasy squads? You know, in the fantasy playoffs? And I'll kind of throw a follow up to that and just just let you kind of talk about it. But I noticed that at least early on, because I do my rankings and then I compare two fantasy pros expert consensus just to see like where my brain is at versus where the consensus is at, because otherwise I would have no idea, and it helps me give better advice. But I noticed that Cup was ranked ahead at least earlier this week. It might have changed by now, and maybe you agree with this. He was ranked ahead of Pukinakua. And I'm curious if you think that that's the obvious move to make, and that if Cooper, that Cooper Cup is the guy that you would rather roster this week and beyond through the rest of the season.

00:41:06
Speaker 2: It's funny, JJ I was just looking at the Fantasy pros ECR, at the expert consensus rankings before this show, and Cup was all the way up to wide receiver five this week. And this was a dude who had six straight games with fifty or fewer receiving yards. And then yeah, hangs, this unexpected one hundred and fifteen yards and a touchdown on the Ravens, one of the toughest pass defenses in the league in the rain. So apparently people are no longer concerned about Cooper Cup the rankers. But yeah, like, I don't know, man, he does get this dream matchup against Washington, which is like, you know, I think they've given up nine point seven yards per pass attempt in their last three games and their opponent passer rating on the season is one oh six, which, to put that into perspective, the career passer rating for Patrick Mahomes is the all time leaders, like one oh three point six or something like that. So, like they're just terrible. And I agree that Cooper Cup is an obvious start. I do have Poka Nakua ranked higher this week, and I've I've got Cup at what like wide receiver fifteen. Yeah, Like I'm still he was still hobbling around like when he would get up after being tackled last week.

00:42:17
Speaker 1: JJ.

00:42:17
Speaker 2: So like I'm not convinced that ankle is totally okay. I think it's kind of been an issue for him all season, which would explain the downturn in production before the Ravens game. So yeah, like I've I've got Puka higher. I think I've got Puka like wide receiver ten or eleven or something like that. So yeah, I'm not I'm still a little skeptical about Cup and his health. I just don't think he's physically right.

00:42:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't disagree. And look, this is not both of us are saying start Cooper Cup this week. I mean he's he's in a very very very very good spot. But I just find it strange that all Pooka Nakua has done is is produced generally speaking. I mean there's been down games actually when Stafford he's either was banged up or they had the backup in. But Nakua is one of I think it's either three or four wide receivers at this point who's seen a twenty percent target here in every single game that he's played this season, and Cooper Cup just doesn't have like he is. Poka Nakua is what we had in Cooper Cup from a consistency standpoint, not when Cooper Cup had his like monster monster year, record breaking year necessarily, but Nikua's consistency is just out of control. And so I found it just kind of fascinating that, you know, there was that gap between the two because to me, I still prefer, you know, Nikua over Cup. But again, just to wrap this up, I do think that Cup needs to be started this week just because the matchup is so good. But you're right, I mean there's still plenty of red flags going on with him in that ankle. Uh great a wide receiver, another stud wide receiver who is not coming off a great game, and he really hasn't had many great games of late, is Stefan Diggs, And I just got to ask you what is going on?

00:43:58
Speaker 2: What?

00:43:59
Speaker 1: Like, how is this happened? He scored fewer than seven PPR points in three of his last four.

00:44:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, and over the current eight game stretch he's on, he's averaging five point seven seven yards per target, which is like terrible. So of those eight games, he's had at least fifty eight receiving yards and five of them but in three of them he's had thirty four or fewer. And in those three low yardage games, he was getting FaceTime against Patrick Certan Junior, Sauce Gardner and Lugerius Sneid, so three of the best cover guys in the league. Like that's it. He's going up against really good cornerbacks and they're they're beating him. Yeah, Like that's kind of it right now. So and now he gets the Cowboys, so he's gonna be seeing like Stefan Gilmour and Deron Bland this weekend. So like another and I've got him top ten. He's one of these guys. JJ. I just like can't bring myself to drop below you know, like mid range wide receiver one in the rankings and I probably should like probably have him outside my top ten this week and like below Pooka Nakua and I just can't do it, like it's a flaw here. But I think I've got him like wide receiver eid or something. But yet, like that's the issue. I think mainly that he's facing these tough corners. He's had this murderous run of matchups and it's it's kind of thwarted him.

00:45:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't think that he is in the same boat. You know, when we talked about start your studs as like a Jalen Waddle, like you mentioned, you know, Diggs is in another tier in terms of talent than a Wattle at this point. And then on top of that, we've seen the ceiling from Digs pretty consistently even to start this season, whereas that wasn't really the case with White. Like, if we were to categorize studs, maybe you could throw Wattle in that categorization, but that's a pretty broad categorization if you're gonna have both Digs and Wattle in that same bucket. But I do think Diggs is one of those players where if you you know, if you have a Pook and Akua option or something, that's one thing. But if you're like looking at versus Zay Flowers this week, would it shock either of us? If Zay has more Fantasy points and Digs, No, it wouldn't shock us. But that that's probably a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier of what can you live with? And if I'm starting Zay Flowers and he puts up a dud, even though he's been great without Mark Andrews, if he puts up a dud and Digs goes off and you lose your fantasy matchup because of that, that's gonna be a tough one to deal with all off season.

00:46:24
Speaker 2: In the Fantasy Pros discord channel, I got my first should I start Stefan Diggs question last night and Zay Flowers was one of the other options. So I did not tell him to start Zay Flowers.

00:46:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, which I understand though you know, logically, it's like it's like I can see an outcome where for sure see an outcome where Zay outscores him. But again, I mean, we got to we're looking at a projection, We're looking at uh, you know what you can again, live with if you make that decision, and to me, I would still be starting Diggs as well. We talked about Kelsey a little bit earlier. He has just not been having the type of season that many of us expected. Is there any reason to believe that this Kansas City Chiefs offense is going to bounce back in some way? I mean, Patrick Mahomes two has been a QB two basically throughout, I mean, most of the season. Is there any reason to believe that this Chiefs offense can bounce back? And in particular with Travis Kelcey.

00:47:17
Speaker 2: That's the other thing, Like Matthew Stafford versus Patrick Mahomes is a viable lineup thing, and I think I'd probably start Stafford this.

00:47:24
Speaker 1: Week, That's what I'm saying. So that's the thing too, is that when with quarterbacks, it's a little bit different because we have a better sense of projection with guys who are touching the ball on every play, We're more accurate with projecting those guys. So I'm okay with saying, yeah, go with Stafford over Mahomes this week. And Mahomes has just not been very good, you know. Just different when when you're talking quarterback versus wide receiver. But I agree with I'm with you with with Stafford over Mahomes.

00:47:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean, like with Kelsey, maybe it is age related. And I think ultimately like he's not gonna wind up checking in with terrible numbers this year. He's gonna be around one hundred catches, he's gonna be around eleven hundred yards. He's probably gonna finish with seven or eight touchdowns like in the grand scheme of his career. Maybe this is where we look back on it and say, yeah, that's where he's That's where he hit the down slope a little bit. And you know, it hasn't been a bottoming out, it hasn't been a steep crash, So that's good. I think the issue with the Chiefs right now is that they are just so bereft of wide receiver talent, like it's a failure of personnel. They don't have any real wide receivers JJ And I'm gonna include Rashid Rice in that assessment because I don't think he's a real wide receiver. Like he is a guy who they are trying to scheme up quick touches to get the ball in his hands and let him work after the catch, Like he does not run routes and beat people downfield and get open and catch you know, passes eight to fifteen yards downfield. Like that's not his game at all. And they don't have anyone who can do that. You know, They've they're trying to use Justin Watson as a lid lifter. They've got MVS who you know, I'm a Packers fan. I can tell you all about like mvs's Travail's over the years, you know, like Kadarius Tony that's gone terribly, Like Sky Moore, I think we have to call a bust at this point. Like I just so badly want to see the Chiefs draft like Romo Dunes from Washington or Kean Coleman from Florida State. Just like give them a legitimate wide receiver and let him play with Kelsey and Rashie Rice next year and Mahomes will be fine. But right now they just are lacking that decent wide receiver.

00:49:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree with you, you know, Rashee Rice, I was wait. Even still, even if we believe that he's not necessarily a polished wide receiver, I'm still taking the l on Rashie Rice versus where I had him, you know, entering the league, not not from a redraft perspective, but a dynasty perspective. Redraft I actually had him as a player to target because it was free. You know, it was so late it didn't matter. The wasn't a big deal. But that being said, I do think that there are concerns with Rice still. And you can look at Matt Harmon's work with reception perception and he's called this out too, where you know, Rice is great after the catch. You know that that's really part of the reason why people liked him as a prospect. But he's not the most polished wide receiver you know, in the world, and that's definitely somewhat of a concern. But right now, when there's such a lack of alternative and they're going to force feed him the ball and at least we're seeing his route participation rise, you know, a week over week it's finally gotten over the eighty percent mark, which was not the case for whatever reason. You know, you would think that they'd at least try to just get him on the field of lock because again, the alternatives are so bad. You know, at this point, you've got to feel decent about him, you know, rest of season, but I do still question a little bit about what his you know, rest of career outlook sort of looks like you mentioned that you're a Packers guy. Jordan Love has a bad game this past week. I needed him this past week in that auction league that we were just talking about what's going on there. Can we trust him in the fantasy playoffs?

00:51:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. Like they've got a pretty light schedule. I mean, I know that does include a much improved Chicago Bears pass defense and a Panthers defense that's like much better against the pass than the run. But mostly, like I think this entire season for the Packers was sort of going to be the success was going to be measured on getting a verdict on whether to move forward with Jordan Love as their quarterback in the future. And I think they've got a pretty decisive, like yes, verdict on that. And like the numbers aren't entirely great. He's twentieth in passer rating, he's eighteenth in yards per attempt, but like he's also in his first year as a starter, and they're going to be even the top quarterbacks have some clunker games, and he certainly had one against the Giants on Monday night, just unfortunate timing for you. JJ. Yes, but like he's not taking a ridiculous Sam Howell esque number of sacks. He's mobile, but like he doesn't vacate the pocket too early like he's it seems like he's generally keeping his eyes downfield and trying to find open receivers, which is encouraging. So like, I think we are getting more good signs than bad from him. And I have been a Jordan Love skeptic, and I'm still pretty positive about him going forward.

00:52:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think at the very least we know, like if you're looking at this from a Dynasty perspective, because I was actually earlier this season in Dynasty trying to trade him away after his peak, after like week two or three or whatever it was, where he was just like dominating and I called him a cell on fifteen transactions and such. I was trying to just get like, you know, first plus for him and you know, no one bit. But I'm looking back and I'm like, it's not that bad of an outcome because now I think he at least is going to have that gig in the short term. You know, moving forward, and you know, if he does improve, then he could become a pretty viable option overall. Speaking of that Packers off though, one player that I did like this season entering the year. Again, this was more of a redraft take for me than Dynasty take, because I had similar questions about Christian Watson, sort of as I did with like a Rashid Rice, Like it's sort of a similar ish like is he this polished wide out? You know, is he is he that strong of a route runner or is this more of a physical specimen just dominating you know, sort of like we saw from Chase Claypool during his rookie season. Did we learn anything from Christian Watson this year? You know, it doesn't sound super promising for him this weekend to be able to go, you know, he's had it seemed like he was getting into a groove right before this last injury. But do you feel optimistic about him going into year three? For him?

00:53:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think his profile might continue to be sort of boom or bust because of the way the Packers use him. Like his average depth of target went from thirteen point eight last year, which is already pretty deep, to fifteen point six this year. And that's even with these occasional like Rashie Rice type little hitches that they'll throw to him, so like they're really trying to take the top off the defense with Christian Watson, and not surprisingly, like his catch rad is barely above fifty percent, they're sort of like, you know, hit or miss targets, like if they connect, like he's gonna have some really big days, but like he might also have some one or two catch days where you are just left high and dry from a fantasy perspective, So like, I just think it's gonna be sort of a boomer Bus profile, sort of a much taller version of Deshaun Jackson or something like that. And unfortunately, I mean I feel like hamstring injuries are going to be part of the fantasy profile too, because now it seems like he's kind of a chronic soft tissue guy. So I'm a little worried about that. But man, like, ultimately, though we've got this really tall, really fast guy, I'm always going to be interested. But it's you know, I could see him being overdrafted because people are always going to be enchanted by the measurables.

00:55:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent and measurables are something that you know, when I'm doing my prospect work and stuff, everyone assumes, like if you liked player X. I didn't really like Watson as a prospect, but just as an example, if you liked player X and he's athletic, then you must have athleticism in your model, and it's way to it. No, I actually don't care about athleticism at all. It's usually embedded in draft capital itself if a player is athletic enough. So I agree, I mean, I do think that that Watson season really was just sort of derailed by that early season hamstring injury, and he really just couldn't get right after that. And then, like we said, you know, last few weeks before this new hamstring injury, he was he was cooking a little bit. I mean, I was starting to feel a little bit better about all the Watson that I had on my redraft teams. And then now obviously we're seeing what we're seeing, and you know, fortunately, fortunately my boy Jaden Reid hopefully be able to step up and uh and be that possession game.

00:56:02
Speaker 2: You you were all over him, man, you you loved him, and uh, you know, like when the Packers drafted him. I'm like, well, well, all right, JJ loves him, so uh you know, and that has worked out really well. I mean, I'm real good.

00:56:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's awesome. I I think that moving forward, he's gonna be sort of the possession guy for them. And I know that they haven't used him totally in that way. You know, they've They've they've used him as an extension to the run game a lot recently, partially because of the Aaron Jones issues in the injuries that he's had. But I do think that Reed is very capable of being an eighty plus reception player in the in the league. Like, I think that he's a really really strong player. He can play everywhere, to play both inside outside. Before I let you go, Pat, give me a player who might really disappoint us in the fantasy playoffs and then give me sort of a low key player who might win titles for fantasy managers.

00:56:54
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, Like I don't want to make the the disappointment thing entirely schedule related, but like I mentioned it earlier with Jalen or Jane Wadell, like the Dolphins play the Jets, the Cowboys and the Ravens over the next three weeks, so, and they're having these health issues on the offensive line with like Tron Armstead and their center whose name I'm blanking on right now, but like, I'm never betting against Tyreek Hill, but I do worry about Waddle and Tua down the stretch. And I'm also kind of worried that Travis Etn sort of has lost a little bit of his mojo. And he has pretty tough matchups against the Ravens and Buccaneers the next two weeks. So although if he can get to week seventeen, if Etn investors can get to week seventeen, he gets the Panthers. So a guy I'm excited about JJ and this is one of the underrated engines of my auction league team, the King's Classic Chewba Hubbard. I mean, he's been the running back nine in PPR scoring over the last three weeks and the Panthers starting to give him almost Kyron Williams type usage like twenty five and twenty three carries the last two weeks, a season high seventy eight percent snapshare this past Sunday. This week he gets in Atlanta defense that no longer has Grady Jarrett's and it's not gonna be as good against the run. And in week sixteen he gets my packers who can't stop the run. So, you know, tougher matchup against Jacksonville in week seventeen. But we'll we'll cross that bridge when he carries you into the Fantasy Championship game.

00:58:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really like that call. That's a great, great call, And I love it when stuff like that happens, when there's a reason for stuff like that happening, and that reason being that the coaching staff is totally different now, you know, they fired Frank Reich, and I always like to see how things shift, you know, with Pittsburgh without Matt Canada, we really haven't seen any shift in that back But if anything, Najie Harris has gotten a little bit more work without Matt Canada. But without Frank Reich, we've seen this team lean on Chouba Hubbard a little bit more. So I really really like that call. Pat. It was great to talk to you man. Let everyone know where they can find you.

00:59:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was great, JJ. I mean the last time we saw each other, I was stuffed into the back of your dadmobile with like fourteen other people had like two people sitting on my lap lost the capacity for speech. So this is, you know, much more pleasant circumstances. So yeah, people can find me on Twitter at fits underscore ff and be sure to check out Fantasypros dot com, Bettingpros dot com, and the Fantasy Prosfootball Podcast.

00:59:30
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for hopping on. It was awesome to talk to you, man, and I promise that next time people in the Dadmobile will be cleaner than it was the last time. We had just had a long road trip and then I took it over to Canton and I got roasted for having like crayons and markers in the back and I'm like, guys, I didn't anticipate being your designated driver and having fourteen people in the back seat. I wasn't ready to clean this thing for you guys. So I promise it'll be cleaner next time. But anyway, thanks again, Pat for joining. Always a pla pleasure to talk to you, and thank you for tuning in.