Atomic Blonde with Vanessa Guerrero

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Speaker 1: On the dol Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef and best start changing it with the Bedl Cast. Hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlin, I have a secret. Okay, do you know how you think that I'm your co host of the Bechtel Cast. Well, I've actually I'm actually a spy and I'm really from the Daily Zeite guys. Oh my god, you've been filtereded. But wait a minute, wait that wait, there's there more. Wait a minute. At the end, I'm double crossing the Daily Zeite guys, and I'm actually from behind the bastards. And then at the end, you get on a plane and Robert Evans is sitting on the plane and he goes, you're back, Oh my god, what a twitch aw. I know that was honestly a less confused that that would be less confusing to me than the ending of a tomic. Yeah. If you just got on a plane and Robert was there and he said, ha ha, I can't believe you called me a name, you a little scamp, And you said it's all a part of the job. Better go back to Cleveland or wherever the CIA is located. Where is the CIA? I don't even know. I was Langley, Langley. Yes, my boyfriend knew that, and he's like, everybody knows that CIA is at Langley. I was like, I don't know the CIA is at Langley. I don't even know what Langley is. Where is it? What is Langley? It's a city Virginia. I only know this because of the American Dad. I don't know if it's a true or like they just say it all the time. But yeah, whoa, Yeah, I had no. I was like, Langley could be a person, could be a place. Wuld be an idea Langley? Apparently there's so much in this movie that that they think is common knowledge, but it is not for me. You and Robert have to get back to Langley. Yes we do, and we're on our way. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. Yeah, which I am not actually a part of. And and I'm I can't say anything because I'm dead. You killed me and then got on Robert's plane. Yeah, anyway, this is the Bechtel Cast, which I am loyal to it, so for now, for now, but this is our show where we analyze movies from an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel tests simply as a jumping off point. Jamie explain the Bechtel test to me in the most confusing way possible, in the spirit of Atomic Blonde. Okay, So, the Bechtel test is allegedly media metric invented by queer cartoonist Alson backed l sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, in which theoretically you would think that two named characters of a marginalized gender talk about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue or more, unless at the end they it turns out they talk about men the whole time, and then they get on a plane and John Gubbins on the plane, and then they go to Langley. Okay, I I followed. I don't think I followed that. But the Bechtel test could be double crossing itself and it's actually men. It's actually been about men this whole time. It's actually been about men the whole time, and then it's triple crossed and it's actually been about um, it's actually been about I don't know, I don't know. Well, that's the and I think we've like, we've brought this up here and there on the podcast, but the Bechtel test is still about men because it's about how women are not are not talking about men, but it is thereby still men are still part of the equation at the center of the test. Yeah, you can't explain the Betel test when talking about the Chtel test. Well, anyways, we're talking about atomic blonde today. That's that's just the truth. And you have an amazing guest, we sure do. She is the host of Kicking and Screaming podcast. She's a host at l Ray Network, and you remember her from our Maid in Manhattan episode. It's Vanessa Guerra. Hello, Hello, thank you for having me back. I love that Maide in Manhattan episode so much because it was the first time I discover the power of a four loco on an empty stomach. Incredible. Did I didn't even know you could still buy four locos? I remember because I had fourhand run into Jamie at a gas station and I was like, oh, that sounds delicious, that will happen. So I got a four logo and I got a hot dog and I was just like having both too quickly backstage and like the second I came out and like heard the audience. I was like, oh no, I have a buzz going uh. And then by the end of it, I just remember getting to the conclusion of Maide in Manhattan is the case for communism. Uh, It'll be way easier to get to that conclusion in this episode. It's built in here versus in how j Lo and y Fine are the least sexy couple that's ever existed. Oh my gosh, god, I does maybe want to go back and and rewatch Maide in Manhattan in solidarity with j Lo as she as she traverses this breakup. You know? Ah, right, Um, what are we to a tomics want? I was actually pretty hype to talk about something action and fighting related, since that's just most of what half of what I talked about these days. So what's your what's your relationship and history with Atomic Blonde? So I'm actually really excited to talk about specifically what happened the day I went to go see it, because it just boils down my like general frustration with just trying to enjoy this movie in Peace around Men, but my like general history is I was very excited to watch it because I am a big fan of the director whose last name I can never figure out how to pronounced David Leech, like licked. I'm going to the laked because I like it, but having been a big fan of his and in general, just whenever a stunt coordinator takes the director helm for an action movie, because that's typically where you're going to see that action look good, especially considering he made his debut as a co director for John Wick and that was gorgeous and basically like brought back the action star where the genre had been like pretty dead because uh, like the Born Identity and Taken had killed it. Uh because you just had these movies with like dudes that don't know how to move and like shaky handheld cameras and it was just basically sucking the fun out of action that like had existed during like the gen Claude van dam era and so like when they announced Atomic Blond, I was just like, hell, yeah, Charlie's has been wanting to do actions since like Eon Flux, because I know, like when that was the thing, she was like learning Kuipawa and saying that she wanted to like be a martial arts star. And uh, when I went to go see Atomic Blonde. I remember I went with like a couple of win in my life that are also like huge like action martial arts, like spy fans um one who was a fan of none of them but was just extremely queer and like their sty for Shortley's. And we went with like our token dude friend and the set and we left the theater we're like talking about like, oh, that fight scene was fun, Oh this was cool. This was interesting, not like you know, that was amazing, because like there's a lot of convoluted plot stuff, but like when you watch action, you're watching like the great choreography, and then there's some stuff in the middle, as with like any great action movie, like I dare you to tell me the plot of like police Story, Um, nobody remembers, nobody cares because you're there for the punching. But the dude that we were with could not stop analyzing every single scene based on what he thought we thought of it. So he kept giving like his like you know, like this is me being like the WoT good guy reads of everything, and so in the middle of our enjoyment, it kepting like, well, was it like a Jane Wick or is it like a Tinker Taylor, soldier, spy or is it supposed to be like a bond thing? And every time I've ever tried to have a conversation about this movie anywhere, it just becomes men comparing it to things that exist that can't just let it be when they do that. And is my general frustration about like just talking about women in action in general. That's so interesting because we haven't done a ton of action movies on the show. We've done We've done several, but yeah, there is always that tendency. I mean, just it's like such a male saturated genre that do you do you have a favorite action movie with with a female lead. There's a few, especially when you go towards like Shaw Brothers Martial Arts movies, so like less action, but like you know, still on the Martial Arts vein, Uh, you have My Young Auntie, which is a it's basically like Kung Fu Pride and Prejudice, which is amazing. There's a huge like fleet of just women that were like incredible and like the Shaw Brothers library, or you have like a lot of like Cynthia roth rock Work or Michelle Yo because you know, she's mostly known for like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and then uh it was the one that she did recently, Crazy Rittasians. But you know, she already had this amazing lineup. But it's interesting because I feel like action, for how much it's like talked about as male saturated in the seventies and eighties, there are a lot of female action stars that don't really get their flowers. And then now when we're having the same conversations, it's usually because it's just like actors that can't really fight and they're like replaced by a celebrity versus just like these incredible stunt women that are still working and performing and that are good actors. Honestly, it's there's I don't know that much about the history of the genre, and that gives me a lot of peace to know that there are there are eras of the genre that are like really female dominated. But it's it's I feel like, you know, when we were growing up, there was not that much in the mainstream at least. Yeah, it's kind of like how it's kind of like how a lot of women found themselves in horror where it like double backed on something that was four men, but women were like no this is mine now with like the final girl thing except action and martial arts. Version of that was the girls with Guns genre, where like there's an entire like if you look up girls with guns, it's like, especially in Japan, there is a big like genre push of just like here's three ladies and they're just an elite action team. And it was one of those things where it's like, yeah, it was originally created four men, and then women were like, this is mine. Youink love when they do that. I'm so excited to learn more about the because I know, like you're an expert and you know a ton about it. I'm very excited to learn more today because this is this is in terms of just general knowledge, I am weak on action and physically weak. Oh god, same the amount of jars that I have to request open and then like for me, I'm a big fan of this genre, but almost all of my favorite action movies are male driven stories starring you know, male action heroes, so I I am not well enough versed in more like female centric action movies. So I was excited about this movie when it came out for that reason, and I remember like seeing the trailers for it, and I already love Charlie's, so I was like, I can't wait for this And then I saw it in theaters and was confused by the plot. But I was like, holy sh it, Charlie's as an action movie star is undeniable, just so awesome, and she's doing a lot of her own stunts in this movie. I was just like blown away by the action sequences and the fight choreography and like what she's capable of because like, again, I hadn't seen that much, especially fighting like that because you see you see like and we'll talk about this, but like the fight choreography that women are often made to do in action movies is they wrap their legs around a man's face and then pussy slammed them to the floor. And there's like none of that in this movie. And yeah, so I was just like I was blown away by the action scenes, um and confused by the narrative. So that's my relationship with this movie, Jay, what about you. I had never seen this movie. I remember being excited. I remember the trailer for this movie was a big deal because it was like, I think that the trailer for this movie was mostly just a fight scene to be like it's a movie about Charlie's Saryn kicking the ship out of people, which was thrilling for me. I didn't see it when it came out, and then I just I feel like this movie kind of like it didn't do super well at the box office. I feel like it didn't pop the way that you would think it would. But then watching it, I mean, it's the action is fucking incredible, it's terrifying, it's so and then reading about like, I'm the relationship I'm rooting for in this movie as Charlie's there on any action genre. Um more so than the characters, I don't know what's going on with them. I had to google Atomic Blonde ending explained it was confusing to be but the action was great and I'm excited to talk about it. Like surely is Sara needed to get like dental surgery in the middle of this production because she just was like kicking ass so much. She was literally clenching her jaw so hard, and like, if you look at every production she's ever done action wise, like she's like Kianu in the sense of like those are actors that would you wouldn't like call the martial arts stars the way you would call like somebody that's in the genre like echo wise or I'm trying to remember the name of the woman who's getting her own sequel from The Night Comes for Us, but she's there's a lot of women in The Night Comes for Us that have like some of the best action martial arts sequences, and like I want to see them getting more work. But like in terms of like actors that actually like give a ship about martial arts, like every production, Charlie's is like, I want to learn judo, I want to learn cape Era, I want to learn you know. She was actually training with John Wicks and the John Wick with Kiano since John Wick two was in production around the time. I loved that fact that they were training together and we're friends. I was like, that's so beautiful and wholesome. Yeah. And like the director himself, who was a stunt choreographer so he's worked with everyone, has said Charlie's throne is in the top one percent of actors that want to like do their own stunts and stunt work, because she did have a stunt double for like certain scenes where it was just completely like out of her skill set, like jumping out of a window. I believe it was a woman named Monique. I can't remember her name, but her experience with it was also like, because there's this thing that I like to call the Tom Cruise effect in action, where an actor insists on doing his own stunts, but if it's something that can like get him her said production back doesn't matter. If it's him that can't see his face, that can like take a million takes, set a crew back, and won't look any different other than just the ego of saying I've done my old stunts. And like, if you listen to any of Charlie's stunt doubles, they're like, yeah, she knows when to call us in and be like, I'm not doing this one. Someone else should because I'm not going to do that in the amount of takes that it needs to be. But if it's you know, my face and if you're seeing it, then I'm going to be there to sell it. And that's why her stunt doubles have such a better experience with her than like a lot of men that are insistent on doing all their own stunts and instead just set production back. Hearing stories about Charlie's and always like is I feel like there's a lot of stories like that with her because she with Mad Max. The thing that always stuck with me was that, um, what's his name, Tom Hardy? Is that a man's name, Tom Hardy? Oh my god, Tom Hardy. For the life of me, I just can't remember him. People say he's talented, I just can't remember who the man is. So but on the set of Mad Max, Tom Hardy was like going super method, you know, he was just he was just being Mad Max. Where as Charlie's her own who stole that movie right out from under him. Um would just act when the camera was on and then because it was like most male method actors, Tom Hardy was like using this to be a fucking asshole to everyone working with him, and Charlie's was like she I think she was asked about it, and She's like, no, I just do the job when the cameras on, and then I stopped, and then I'm nice to people like yeah, exactly, I if you're a good actor, that's possible, and you're not a good actor, and then I'm like whatever, I mean, like, if you want to do method for you know, your craft or whatever, like, but don't I just hate when it's used as an excuse to be ad dick to people, because it feels like that's where it usually goes. What about yelling at a p A is going to make this movie better for you? Right right? Yeah? The only actor who should be going method and like staying in that character all the time is Ben Wishaw as Paddington. Yeah, or Al from Molina with dot Dog. I'd let him kill me. So it's just spitfalling. Um. But yeah, Charlie's is great. I feel like for I mean, we're gonna be talking about a lot today. I am so interested Kaitlin to hear what your plot this is going to be, because I think honestly I'll learn. I Well, let me just give this disclaimer. This recap might not make any sense because again I'm not sure how clearly I understand this movie, but I did. I did watch it twice to prep for this episode. I really did my best to make this recap as clear as possible. But shrug, who knows how it's gonna go. Um. So, yes, here's the recap. We are in Berlin. It's November, right before the fall of the Berlin War. Yep, let me try that again everything's gone great. Right before the fall of the Berlin Wall, we see a man, James Gascoyn get murdered by a KGB agent named boxed In. Then we cut to Lorraine. That's Charlie's Theron or Throne. Everyone's name in this episode is just going to really trip me up. It has a little bit of accent on everything. So that's why I'm always like, Charlie's is in London. She's in London, she's all bugged up, She's drinking vodka on ice, which gross, and her hair is atomic blonde. She's British Intelligence. So like M I six, I had to google M I sex is that is that? I think that's roughly equivalent to like American CIA. Okay, that's what I learned. Julie childs in an early version of that, right, Okay, if the once it becomes Julia Child trivia, then I'm like, oh wait, now we're speaking my language. And she goes to a debriefing where Toby Jones is there and so is John Goodman from the CIA, and they're like, hey, Lorraine, what happened in Berlin? And then the movie cuts back and forth between this like debriefing and flashbacks of like what's actually happening in the story. What would have been really helpful is if Toby Jones and John Goodman turned to camera and recapped the Cold War. It would have been super nice because this plot requires that you have a pretty thorough understanding of the Cold War, the allegiance is and exactly what was going on at the end of Um. Yes, I admittedly know so little about the Cold War that I am embarrassed to admit how little I know about it. Um. I know that it was something about communism, and I know a little bit more now because I found a website that is, um, the Cold War Explained for Children. So, um, I found this really helpful resource that explains to children what the Cold War was linken in the description, and now I have a slightly better understanding. But um, yeah, I just I did not learn about this in history class and I don't know anything about it. Iconic, Thank you so much. UM Okay, So then we flash back to ten days earlier, where Toby Jones is explaining to Lorraine that immunity has been promised to a Stazzi officer code named Spy Glass in exchange for a document a k a. The List, which is hidden in a wristwatch, which contains names of every active clandestine officer currently in Berlin and all of the shady things that they're into. I do kind of love that. I love the riddle inside of a riddle. It's all very I was like, Oh, I feel smart. It's like national treasure. There's a clue inside a clue inside a clue. It's like the Davini code capin and then you put the word apple in and it goes, guess what, that's the DA code. Good grief? Okay, so this is And then they say like that this is information, if it falls into the wrong hands, will extend the Cold War for another forty years. She's like the stakes are high, really high stake groundhogs Day. Yeah, So they think the man who killed Gascoyne at the beginning of the movie now has this list and everyone's looking for him, including Perceval. That's James McAvoy who is in Berlin. And then I think it's a flashback flashback to him talking to Spyglass telling him that Gascoyne never showed up with the list. But Spyglass is like, hey, don't worry I memorized it. So then Lorraine heads to Berlin to link up with Perceval. There's a mysterious woman who is following her. There's a few fight scenes where like the kg BE pretending to be British intelligence show up and try to trick her, but she beats the ship out of them with a shoe. It's so good. Um. Meanwhile, backed in, the guy with the list didn't report to his like Soviet pals, the main guy there being Bremovich um, and they're realized that he's going to basically betray them and sell it on the black market. Then we cut back to Lorraine. She's trying to find this list, but there's also this Traders double agent with code name Satchell, who is on the list and who Lorraine is trying to expose or keep hidden. I don't know. And it's at this point in the movie where I'm like, oh, there's too many there's too many mcguffins, and I'm going to get confused really soon one of those like okay, there's a there's a list inside of a watch, but now there's Satchel and I'm going to get lost. I think I was already pretty lost by this point, at least on my the first time watching this movie also, and like, wait, what is the Cold War? I have no idea. It's been explained to me, and like basketball, I haven't retained it. Yeah, I've like I've definitely read about it. I've like read the cold War Wikipedia page. But it's like one of those things that, like the second like I hit X on the wikipedie page, I've forgotten everything I just learned, so gone. Do you want to know? It's really embarrassing. Yes, I took a two year course in high school on the Cold War. I don't know what it is. I don't know. I don't know. I didn't retain any of it and I was too busy having crushes. All I know is there's a piece of it in a Vegas bathroom. Yeah. I think it's a urinal in a Vegas bathroom. I can't remember like what hotel has it, but that's exciting. I love a cold War artifact. Um. Yeah, So for anyone who's like listening to this episode and like hoping to get some context for the Cold War, yell at doesn't. This is not a cold war podcast, Okay, jeez. Anyway, So Lorraine goes somewhere to find answers, and this woman who has been following her approaches Lorraine. Her name is Delphine Lacel, and she's like, hey, meet me at this club tomorrow night. And we're like, oh, they're fining, they're vibing. Then there's something with a watchmaker and a watch, but not the watch with the list on it. It's a different watch. And Lorraine is given a new contact to pursue in East Berlin, like an ally that she can trust because she does not trust Percival's contacts. And she goes to East Berlin and meets with this contact, Merkel a k a. Bill Scars Guard who looks to meet a lot like Steve BUSHEMMI was anyone else getting that he does, and that makes sense as to why I find him attractive, because I'm like, I shamelessly am Helen into like the big I thing, and I've always had a long time like boushemy thing, and I couldn't figure out why Scars guard is like the most appealing of the Scars guards to me. Bill I mean, and the boushemy thing makes sense now that he he is kind of serving some young bush emmy. I have such a crush on Bill scars Card. I'm like as Pennywise, not as Pennyway. It doesn't matter, Yeah, it doesn't matter. Like in this movie specifically, he looks the most like Berlin punk kid in the way that like you'd meet somewhere and just be like, ha ha ha, I'm going to ignore all my friends to talk to you. Does let him like ruin your life for a couple of exactly, drop everything and be like, wow, my life's and shambles. But here's Bill scars Guard. He has that face anyway. So then so then Lorraine goes to this club that Delphine told her about, and Lorraine and Delphine start making out. But oh wait, Delphine works for French intelligence, and I'm like, whose side are they on? In the Cold War? How would I know that? There? You know, from what I could gather, like the US, England, West Germany and French were all allied together. Okay, so they're all on the Okay, so the French I just was like, is France randomly going rogue and there with East Berlin? So then okay, sorry, I'm gonna stop. So yeah, she's she's an ally. So that's like kind of a point of contention for a moment, but then they're like, well, just keep kissing, and then they have sex, and then Delphine tells Lorraine some secret information about Perceval, which I think we never find out what it was by the end of the movie. So question was trying to figure that out too, van Asa, do you know? Yeah, I've been trying to figure it out. I have a theory because, like by this point, she hasn't taken that photo yet, I think because later on there's that photo she takes of Perceval. So my theory is either like she was following him or Personval hired her to follow Lorraine, because why else with like an agent, as a novice as Delphine, who's only been doing it for like a year, and like you know, she like makes a lot of like rookie mistakes, So why else would someone like her like catch on to where Lorraine is and who she is unless she was like tipped off. So that's what I think. I think personal might have like hired her because she's there at the airport when Lorraine arrives in Berlin. Yeah, that makes sense. Poor, I I wish that we got uh more Delphine just I I liked how she was, like, yeah, I thought I would like spy for a couple of years after college. But I'm kind of in over my head. It's like she's treating being an international spy like it's teach for America. I'm like, what are you doing? What are you doing? You don't know? You're not suited to this job. I'm like, there's a whole there's a whole slapstick comedy in that sentence alone. Yeah, I know, basically spy too. I want her character and spy too. Yeah, where's like, where's the rom com version of this where it's just like Lorraine and Delphine having a comedy of errors falling in love and not knowing who's who. There's a lot of stuff there because it's like, oh if a if a if an experienced spy falls in love with a rookie spy, that's such a bad look for her, and like, oh how embarrassing. Oh my god, I love Okay, I would watch let's write it. Yeah, so into this um okay. So meanwhile, Perceval finds Bockton, kills him and takes the watch with the list on it, but he doesn't tell Lorrain that he has it when they meet up to make arrangements to escort Spyglass to West Berlin because they're providing like safe passage to him and his family to the west. And then shortly after that, this is when we also see Perceval colluding with the Soviets. He's talking to what's the guy's name, Bremovich, and so things seem pretty shady there. The more last names that it introduced to stuff, the harder of a time I have, which is why I never got into Game of Thrones in general. Anything that has a lot of names is a tough one for me, especially because there's so many like code names to or like names of people who you don't know what code name applies to what person. And it's why I've never been sober for a Bond film. I just let it take me. You need It's so like and then if and then the answer to your question of like who is that is always like, oh, it's the guy with the beard, and then you're like, well, that's actually really not helpful. There's forty of them. They just come on and off, but wherever they want. I also didn't okay, this was like a totally stray observation. But the moment where John Goodman shows up at the top of the Berlin Wall and he's wearing a hat, I almost didn't recognize him. I'm like, have I ever seen John Goodman in a hat? He was unrecognizable to me in that hat. Interesting does he wear hats? Listeners sound off in the comments, I don't know that I've ever seen the man wear a hat. Maybe an inside luland Davis. I think I distinctly think in the backseat of a car he might be wearing a hat. But also that character has like I'm wearing a hat energy, right. I'm just like, God, I feel like I had just John Goodman is so and he's like amazing, but he's so John Goodman in all of his roles, and I was just completely thrown by seeing him in a winter hat, and I was like, that's not the man I've come to love. I knew the shape of his head. Yeah, It's like, where's the top of that head? John? Anyways, a lot of brilliant observations keep him coming. Jamie John Goodman hat three question marks, I'll mark that off. I think I pay my point. Oh God, Okay, um So. Meanwhile, Perceval and Lorraine go to East Berlin to meet up with Spyglass to get him safely to the west, except there are a bunch of Soviet snipers targeting Spyglass. They are unsuccessful, but Perceval shoots Spyglass, which no one sees. So now we're like, yeah, definitely, Perceval is maybe not a good guy here. That guy we'd keep hearing is the bad guy. He might be the bad guy, might be bad guy. Yeah. So then following that is when they we get this like he like ten minute long, amazingly choreographed fight sequence. She finds the Soviets, kicks the ship out of them for ten minutes. She and Spyglass escaped temporarily, but then Spyglass is killed when their car is kind of thrown into a river and he drowns. Um So, now Lorraine believes Perceval to be a double agent. This is even more confirmed when he goes and kills Delphine, which Lorraine finds out about right away. She's sad. She then finds and kills Perceval, and it seems like Perceval is like this code name double agent Statuel. But wait, but then we see Lorraine editing various audio recordings. She's like cutting things together to make it seem like I was. I wrote down Caitlin editing the Bechtel cast every week, cutting out all the stuff that's like, oh, no, one wants to hear that. This is gonna come out and I'm gonna be admitting to so many crimes. Yeah, sorry, Vanessa, but I'm really going to implicate you for some messed up stuff here, brutal stuff. I'm the one that burned down the I'm the reason the Hindenburg crashed. I mean you said it during the recording, I like the evidence show. Oh goodness, Um okay. So she's like, yeah, she's cutting things together to make it seem like Percival was a traitor when it seems like Lorraine was Satchel all along. What But then we cut to a few days later in Paris, Lorraine as Satchel, meets with the main Soviet bad guy, Bramovich, who is about to kill her. But she kills him and all of his cronies because wait, she's not a trader. She's still loyal to the British crown. Oh wait, no she isn't, because she's been an American spy this whole time, working for the CIA, and John Goodman is her boss. She's not British intelligence at all. Whoa that was? I got the the when the movie ended for the fourth time. I was like, hello there, and then she's like, I just want my life back, and I'm like, what what do you mean by that? Because I don't know a damn thing about you. It seems like this movie is setting up more. They're like, oh, we'll tell you more about her later. There is a sequel in development, so maybe we will find out more information about Lorraine. In the meantime, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back to discuss. And we're back, baby, Where where do we want to Should we start by talking about the action in the movie, because yeah, there's so much to love here. I um yeah, I mean, but as you're you're the expert, what was your what was your take on the action in this movie? Oh? My god, I loved it. I loved it so much I the last few years, And like, continuing onward, we're watching action in martial arts movies have their renaissance again, Like we're watching people actually like give a shit about good choreo and also filming good choreo because for a long time, the way we were shooting it wasn't doing it justice. It was that like shaky handicam. That's like why would you go through the effort of you know, training these actors and these stuntmen through these amazing pieces of choreography akin to like Bean Kelly dance sequences, and then we shoot it like shit, which is like very much like a Western thing because like Indonesia, Korean, everywhere else was like way ahead of us on the action end there. Uh like just watch anything they were doing like ten years before we started getting good again. Uh. But like specifically where I started noticing people like paying attention to action coreo getting good again, it was like Birds of Prey where it was like, oh wow, you can get characterization through like good action sequences and the coreo. And this does a lot of that, Like when Perceval gets stabbed in the back when he's like trying to kill Delphine and he's like he can't reach the knife and you have that almost like comical like slapstick moment, or really thinking about like the stairwell scene and how it's all this really great one take, but everyone like is getting progressively exhausted, and you're having those moments where they're like hitting the ground and taking a breather, like stumbling back, and it feels so much more grounded considering like the plot gets a little wonky because it it has that like most of being something that's like based on a graphic novel. So it's like what do we keep and what do we not keep? And just like spy movies in general, I struggle to follow. There are like two of the four Daniel Craig Bond movies that have come out to date, I could not even begin to explain the plot to two of them. I like, I'm just like the what was one quantum of soulace like you can get about it. I don't know what that movie is about. I've seen it like three times and I can't tell you what happened. So I think that's just sort of like a trademark of the genre is that a spy like espionage movie is just going to be kind of confusing. It's confusing, and action really shines its best when you just do like a real just like simple like this is the plot and and we're just going with this when i'd like I bring it up again and I remember the name of the sequel, It's Night of the Operator with this amazing actress named Julia Stell. That's the sequel that they're planning. But The Night Comes for Us is a perfect action movie because the plot could just be summed up as like a former Triad member is protecting a young girl. That's keep it simple, and then just action. It's super simple, and then just action sequences play out the rest of it, because that's when it works the best. The second you try and do something else, people are lost because they're paying attention to these great long sequences and then there's some ship in the middle and they're lost. But like the choreography and this does the thing that I really love where it thinks about how each person would fight in a situation because like in a lot of this, like you know, Charlie's is still like smaller stature than a lot of the people that she comes up against, so she uses her environment. She's really good at like figuring out where she can get these like physical advantages of advantages is on them, but like also doesn't get that thing that you saw in like a lot of earlier action movies with women in them where it's like, but they're also inhumanly strong, yeah, and also so. And then, like I mentioned this earlier, but like a lot of earlier action movies starring women were really grossly sexualizing the fight choreography and like making them just like horny fight and like oh Mr and Mrs slam you down with my pussy and that's gonna be my big signature move, and like, yeah, yeah, this just felt so much more grounded and authentic, and there wasn't any sort of like meal made of Charlie's body as she was fighting in in the action sequences that it's like, I feel like for me talking about the action sequences of this movie and then talking about the other parts of the movie, it's like it was like, I don't know, I was having some dissonance with like the action sequences are so incredible and so well done, and I mean, like you're saying Vanessa like she's using her body in a really powerful but realistic way. She's like dressed in a way that makes human sense for what she's doing, and like it's just really fucking cool. And then but then outside of that, I feel like her body is treated completely differently. It's just so it was like kind of dissonant for me in terms of, like, the action is so good, but then the way that the camera treats her body at other points, And I don't know how much of this is pulling from the graphic novel. I'm sure a lot of it is, but the way the camera treats her body when she's outside of those action sequences feels more intentionally sexualized. And yeah, the action sequences and the rest of the movie, I was like, Oh, it almost feels like two different units or something. Yeah, I was excited to talk to you about this because I've also like I've had some interesting mental back and forth with it, or it's just something that I like never just have like a straight answer for how I feel about it, because like it is treated differently from the fight sequences, because the fight sequences are very much just like it's how a lot of like martial artists and action stars are treated as like, you know, their body is like this weapon in this tool. And on one hand, there's also like the elements of like it feels overly sexualized. But then I also grew up watching a lot of gen clon VANDAM movies where he's like oiled up and like doing the splits and like very much like posing like this is my ass, and like the hallmark of the Action star where the men are like flexing, and like that first scene where like before we even see her tits, it's like the flexing of her back muscles, and so like there those moments of me being like what for me is like the amount that you expect from an Action star as like what has been standard? And then what feels ick for me? And I'm trying to find those lines because then I have this other layer of like this general frustration. And I've talked to other queer women about this, this like general frustration of just like when am I getting an Action star that I get to lust over that isn't just a guy? And when can I like have that framed for me? Because I also like want that. I want my like sexy bond lady. I like I want my you know Gordon lou like glistening in the sun moment. But then you also have to like have that conversation of just like who is the target audience? What am I gleaning off of this? Like how is it presented and like when am I like going to get it? And it goes straight back to that why can't I have something and let it be? But then I have the conversation of like how men are viewing it too, and I'm like, Yeah, my impression of it was her body was not treated that much differently than the way a man's body would be treated in an action movie where a man is the action hero of the story, where like there is still some degree of sexualization of a male action hero, like you said, with like a focus on like glistening muscles, or there's some kind of like raw sexualization to like a strong, rugged male action hero. And while there is some kind of gazey camera work happening on Charlie's body and there's scenes where she's nude where she didn't necessarily have to be seen nude, Like narratively speaking, I feel like the same kind of things happen in yeah, just like any action movie. Not to say that that's like an excuse or that makes it okay, but it was to me because there are action movies starring women that way more sexualized, like the female subject I'm thinking of, like Angelina Jolie in Laura Craft tumb Rater sure that. Oh yeah, I still haven't seen Salt, but like, yeah, women's bodies will just be more sexualized than what I saw in Atomic Blonde. Not to say that there was no actualization happening. It was kind of like somewhere in the middle. I guess it's that messy, messy middle, right. Yeah, And again, this is like not my genre, so I totally I totally hear what you're saying in terms of like men are this is just a very sexualized genre. It's a genre that hinges on bodies working at peak physical performance, and like you're gonna want to see that. There was just I think for this one in particular, I kind of like I did some research on the team and obviously like, this is a team that knows action and knows stunts, but I was also like, this is also a team of men who never seem to work with women behind the scenes very frequently, And I did feel like with with certain shots and certain scenes, there was stuff that felt like it felt just kind of like if there was a woman in the room, or if there was a woman in a high creative position, would this scene had happened this way? With this costume ways have gone through because I feel like kind of the difference with other action movies that I'm familiar with. And again it's not a ton but I was you know, usually in action movies, you have, you know, a male hero who is presented pretty sexually, but you also have these side female characters who are presented hyper sexually and they're basically useless to the plot. This movie presents its hero sexually, and that's kind of it there is you don't have that, like, oh and here's the like sexy male sidekick this time or I don't know, it just felt I think it's stuck out to me because the only characters I felt like we're being kind of sexualized were the female characters, like that those other elements were missing, and I think that's why it kind of popped from me like that very bond wa Yeah, And then I was like, oh, and it's a cinematographer for transformers, so like, I just don't know, I just don't know how Like I guess my I'm extremely jaded in this department, but particularly with cinematographers, I'm like, I just don't know that they were thinking of or asking these questions just based on kind of the team assembled. Yeah, it's it's a probably not situation because of just like how like especially we were like on the precipice of getting more, but like at the time there are so few women, uh not like working because they've been there, but like that we're being hired, financed and like put in these positions to make these calls. Totally. But then you also get on the weird end of just like because you're like mixing genres where you also have like the spy thriller where it's like ah, but then there's always that like honeypot situation. Uh. But again because it was because I know, the suggestion to like add bisexuality into it was Charley's. Yeah she was that wasn't in the graphic novel, but she wanted that element to it where she's just like I wanted to have like my bond girl moment, but then the moment wins where she's with Gascoyne. We don't really get to have those moments with him. We don't really get to like lust with him and give him like the equal bond girl moment that we get with Delphine. I think I would have like kind of maybe this is like nonsensical, but I would have been less kind of like pinged by it happening with Charlie's and with Delphine if that moment did exist for the side characters, because you're because it's like it's a hyper sexual genre regardless of gender normally, but it felt like it was still kind of like the hyper sexualization and not even like hyper but the sexualization really only happened for female characters. Yeah, and just felt like kind of off. Yeah, I'm picturing a scene where Charlie's is taping like a microphone or like a bug to herself, and the camera starts on her like pelvis and then kind of like just slowly tilts up her body as she's like taping the wire all the way up, and then like she wearing a bra but like it lingers on her breasts for a moment, and then that shot is used in the trailer. And we can talk about the trailer a little bit, but it's basically like whatever is going to make an audience want to see a movie, which is usually like sex and violence and rock and roll, and this movie has got it all. The soundtrack for this movie is so fun. It's all diagenic too before Baby Driver, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, but yeah, so there's there's like these kind of linger e kind of males gazy shots that exist in the movie are just plucked out and put into the trailer to get people to be like, oh, this is going to be a really this is a really sexy movie. I have to go see it. It's like, I'm never upset to see Charlie's like, it's not that's not the issue for me, Like I'm in love, but the thing is great. But yeah, you have James McAvoy and a meshed tank top. Why not him to exactly. I'm like, there should be equal opportunity lusting if we're if we're lusting in the movie, like James McAvoy's right there, Bill scars Guard, give me some of that Bill scars Guard. Baby. I'll even take it from John Goodman because I've had a long time thing for him. It's like, yeah, it's like you have all I mean you have. It would be easier to tell the male characters apart if if one were naked. But yeah, so it's like it's there there were some shot like that shot you're describing Caitlyn. I'm like, oh, the Transformers Dark of the Moon is jumping out for me here a little bit. But I never felt that watching the action sequences. So that's why it was just felt like different, I don't know, yeah, like that that that sexualization isn't present there for sure. I had a couple other observations about the different fight sequences, um where I think it's just like worth noting that we see very little in the way of male heroes or characters that were meant to be like we are meant to side with fighting. It's all Lorraine fighting men who are like framed as being bad guys. So like it's just such a rare thing to see in a mainstream American contemporary movie that in general is cool. There was a moment where we talked about the shoe the and that happens pretty early on, and I didn't totally remember a lot of details about this movie after having seen in theaters. So the scene where she like pulls off her candy apple red three or four inch stiletto and like uses it as a weapon. For a moment, I was like, Oh, no, is this going to be one of those movies where like women like they're using their shoes and like their lipstick is actually like a tracking device and like things like that, and that didn't happen after this one moment with the shoe, which I was, I mean that moment, the shoe is fucking and I mean, it does make a good weapon. But she's got other weapons. She's got other Yes, most of the time you see her fighting with her fists or kicking people or shooting guns, so keys, lamps, sections of hose, but not like frying pans, which is the thing we talked about all the time, where like, oh, if a woman fights, then she has to fight with cookwear. No, She's like, she's like fucking good at what she does, which is like her job is just that. I mean, I don't even want to get into the plot stuff too much because I'm like, what what does the CIA want in this situation? I don't know. I couldn't tell you what her true goal is. Everyone's motivations are so weird, like John Goodman, aren't the CIA and on my six theoretically on the same side, right, I don't understand. I don't know, I don't know. Oh God, there's so much I don't know about the Cold War and also the general wants of what covert operations need. I have no idea, right, Yeah, but like speaking to like Lorraine's character, I mean, she's definitely I feel like and and again you both no way better than me. I feel like spy characters are often kind of blank slates because they have to have all these secrets kind of deal. And that's kind that is her deal because otherwise, if you, I mean, if you find out she's American, then the plane scene at the end means nothing. But I like that. I felt like, yeah, like Lorraine is just like a full on fucking action hero. She looks cool all the time, regardless of what she's doing. Oh, she's she's drinking vodka on the rocks. She's drunk, chain smoking. Yeah, she's drunk all she's chain smoking. She's saying funk all the time. She's a certified she's like Quippy in the interview, she's always firing off these one liner Like it just felt so like in a real, a fun way, like, oh, yeah, this is like an action movie. This person is just like a career cool person. Yeah right, but yeah, we don't we don't learn much about her character nor any beside from that. Yeah, and then, and this type of movie doesn't call for like really meaningful character development, Like that's not why we go to watch an action movie. Yeah, Like I dare anybody to give me like five character traits of John Wick, Like give me five other than like he likes dogs. Give me four more than that, because like even the third movie had like a weird side plot or he like went to Egypt and cut off his own finger for like no goddamn reason. Uh. And again, these are movies I adore, but I like with so many like action heroes and like give me five each, I dare you truly impossible for most of them? Yeah, we don't really come to the genre for character development. Yeah. The last subservation I want to make about just sort of like the action of it all is that, um, I just appreciate that between Atomic Blonde, between Mad Max Fury Road between I didn't see this movie yet, but I know that it's another action movie. The Old Guard on Netflix. Charlie's Theren has like proven herself to be an impressive action movie star. Not that she's necessarily like known only for that because she'saw she you know, spans many genres. She didn't do it all dully. She was a dully, she was in Monster, She in a bunch of young adults, Mighty Joe Young, remember that one. Oh my god, I had that on VHS. I watched it until it like they just got all the little fuzzy lines because I kept rewinding it anyway. So she's very versatile. But she's kind of one of a few women in Hollywood who are being cast in these very action centric roles, which I think is just like a really cool thing that I would like to see more of, especially because it's not something that a lot of a lot of women have been able to achieve just because of like the limitations of who they let be in action movies. But there are dozens of men who have made entire careers as very bankable action stars. And you could like Tom Cruise, Bruce Willis the Rock, Jason Statham, Kana Reeves, I don't know, Schwards Senegger, Like the list goes on and on and on. So I just I appreciate that, like Charlie's there and this is part of her career now because I love watching her fight and just and I really like that she like got this movie made too. I feel like that's a lot of especially when you hear about UM, like so many good movies with female protagonists only happened because there was like a woman with power who was like, we're doing this um, and it seems like this movie is no exception that, like Charlie's was like found the book and she was like, I want the director of John Wick to do this, and this is the team I want and this is how I want to fight. And you know, she like got it made. And she's in her forties in this movie too, which isn't you know, which isn't nothing in Hollywood ever, and I know she's producing the sequel to which is fantastic. I love it also for anybody that's just like looking for a lot of like dope scenes with women in action now, like look to Indonesia. Indonesia like currently has been doing amazing, Like if you just look up an actress named Julia Stell, like the amount of fights that she has under her belt right now that are all all of them are like iconic scenes in action. Like if somebody did like a top twenty from the last decade, a big chunk would be Julia Stell. Awesome. That's so cool, Okay, yeah, I gotta check her out. Um, let's take a quick break and then we'll come for more discussion and we're back, all right, should we talk about the romantic Let's talk about the romantic sub plot? Baby? So um I so it's between um Lorraine and Delphine teach for America Bad Spy And this is like I think that actress's second like spy type movie as well. Yeah, I forgot she did Kingsman. Oh yeah, she was the girl with the sword feet, like the henchman with the sword feet I have. I haven't seen Kingsman. I didn't know there was sword feet in that movie. Yeah. So Sophia Boutel I believe is her last name. Her background is also dance. That's why she's in it movie. Um, that director I hate gas Barney Clinic. Yes, not a fan. Yeah, so her background is mostly dance stuff. So, like, I'm surprised that she didn't get a ton of corio in this movie because she had a bit in Kingsman as like the main batties Henchman. So when I saw her in this, I was like, oh cool they brought her in because she did like a Bond homage. Already you know, she like has that background, and she didn't really get a ton of corio, which is a bummer for me. Yeah, I felt like she was set up. I really enjoyed the way that her character was set up, and I enjoyed how that relationship was set up, and then she kind of disappeared and then she came back and then she was killed. It reminded me a little bit of the girlfriend character in Have either of you seen I Care a Lot? Oh not. Yes, there's another like a cool relationship that is set up and you're like, oh, this is like love is you know, I'm I'm kind of a sucker for like, my only weakness is love. The same and then you get like a cool, a cool character and then you're like, oh, this is going to be the movie, but then it kind of isn't, and then the character dies and you're sad, sorry for spoiling I Care a Lot for your kid. It's no, it's the same kind of deal that I've seen before, because it's just like I don't know, there's like there isn't like a ton of space to development, but also like I've seen other movies give me that development faster, so I know, it's possible. It's not something that's like undoable and impossible. And like Delphine had all of the makings of, you know, having like one or two really great fight scenes, like she had a little bit of that moment with that like knife work, but again not that much. And like you said, Jamie, I really liked their back and forth in terms of just like her being a novice and like this thing that like reflects that to Lorraine, and I just I wanted a little bit more. I wanted just at least just a sequence of not so much like how she got into it, like those photos. We get like such a throw a moment of her taking those photos, but we didn't get like a three minute spic scene or something, right, and like why wouldn't you have shown that, like and why could? I mean, I know that like the center of the action is going to be around Lorraine, and that probably makes sense, but it's like there was room for that and it would have been fun to watch. And it seems like, um, Sophia Boutella is able to do it, so just do it. Yeah, I feel like she kind of faded. She just kind of faded out of the movie over time. I don't know. Yeah, so here here my thoughts on all this. So it would have been like the easy, the expected the common choice to have this romantic subplot b between like Lorraine and Percival. Instead it's a queer romance. The character in the source material in the graphic novel is basically the same character, but they gender swapped it. So what happened there was basically Charlie Starren was like, Okay, we're developing this for the screen. We're adapting this. How can we make it different though than like your typical spy action movie. And then the screenwriter, Kurt John's did suggested quote in the graphic novel, the Lacelle character, the French agent is actually a man. I said, I think it's cool if we gender flip this and make it a woman end quote. And then Charlie's was all for it. So we have a few things here now. So we get some by visibility because it's implied that Lorraine was in a relationship with James Gascoyne before he was killed, and then she begins with this relationship with Delphine. So you know, it's not something we've actually talked that much about on the show, but as far as bisexual visibility and by erasher. A lot of media and even media featuring queer characters tends not to include bisexual or pan sexual people, or I mean really anyone on the sexual spectrum who is not hetero or a gay man or lesbian woman. The sexual spectrum that tends to get represented in media still seems to be quite binary and erases a large number of people. So this movie does give us some bisexual inclusion and visibility. However, this movie received backlash from a lot of viewers for the use of the barry your gaze trope um, which is, if anyone is not familiar in media, a disproportionate number of queer characters will be killed off, often in the name of advancing a hetero leading characters storyline. When it does happen, it's often like very kind of random or needlessly or it like kind of doesn't really have anything to do with the plot, or it like didn't need to happen narratively, so that's kind of part of this trope. And you it means that queer characters don't get a happy ending, or like that the queer couple doesn't get to end up together. So a lot of people saw this movie and we're really disappointed by the use of this trope. And then like learning that the screenwriter was like, hey, let's just make this a queer relationship instead of a straight relationship then uses that trope. To me is just sort of indicative of like, Okay, the choice wasn't necessarily made for maliciously, but like it wasn't made in an informed way. I feel like that again speaks to like the the like team that has assembled here are a great action team, but but they're like needs to be some other voices in the room. Yeah, because it's like this guy wrote three hundred you know, like is he do we really trust him with this storyline? I don't know, you know, I don't know. Yeah, I'm gonna bring a kind of left field example in terms of just like when I'm like comfy in a death and versus when I'm like not, because like I've had this conversation a zillion times with other queers where it's like there's barrier gates and then there's just when a plot like lends itself to like this character will die or everybody dies, or there's no happy ending, and often the time the thing that changes it is if the writer straight or not. And also like is the character experiencing like some kind of retribution And like the first time I saw a queer death on screen where I like didn't feel weird was because the writer himself was gay, and that was the movie Bright of Chucky. Uh so amazing example. Luck. Yeah, it's like where's this going? I love it. It's a big left field line. So if you watch specifically the Child's Play series, it gets really queer. The second like Don Mancini starts to gain more control because like, first of all, he's the reason why the script worked Initially, Um, there's a real mess first and then he went in and fixed it. And then he basically has been like the same writer for everything and then took more creative control on once Bright of Chucky came out, and that was like, if you watch it, it's very like especially for like young me as like a closeted bisexual woman, Like it had all of my little flags of just like, hey, I know you're watching this because like it's it's very campy. You know, there's a very deliberate casting, and like Jennifer Tilly the sequel after that has John Waters and it like it it knows and like Bright of Chucky was also the first time I saw a gay character and horror that was just gay. Like it's he's the best friend, but he's not even the sassy best friend. He's just the best friend that is also gay, and like you know, is just there and like everyone dies in in a Chucky movie because that's what it is, you know. Yeah, you have this year dem devable slasher. Everyone dies and the way slashes are set up, like you're fully expecting any character that's introduced to be queer to be like the one that gets like the most brutal punishment. It's usually when the middle of like doing something gay. Uh, And it's just like a little bit more cruel and often sexualized than it is in other places. And David is just David until lenatably gets hit by a truck because he's like, you know, in the middle of a standoff, and yes, he gets hit by a truck, but he dies like the same way everyone else does. And it's just being a character. And I know that, Like Don's Vancini when he wrote that, wasn't like I'm punishing David. David's just David versus when like, if a street guy wrote that exact scene, I feel weirder because he doesn't have that like intent knowledge and like he doesn't have that informed decision and you could do if like if a gay person wrote this, I wouldn't feel the same. And it doesn't help that Delphine has killed in Lingerie for some reason, like come on, how many her death scene feels really exploitative? Then that way, And then I also pulled a quote from the director Dave it light licked. It's just a lot of consonants all at once. But um he said about this relationship quote, the relationship was flipped before I came on board. It was a great idea. You always have to find ways to contemporize these stories, reach bigger audiences and be provocative in your storytelling. End quote provocative. Okay, that's interesting in in citing the word provocative. Right, So the the intent there with like the direction and again with the writing choice, and again like if it's a matter of if this writing choice is made responsibly and that character is given more just like thought and care and development, and she isn't like Fridged for no reason. It's just not like it's just I don't know. It's like, with all due respect to this team, these are like you collaborators of Michael Bay and Zack Snyder's they're ill equipped to to make what I think is like a good idea here, but they're ill equipped to give it the breathing room and the you know, just kind of like respect that any storyline deserves, yeah, to make that informed decision, because the thing is like, all right, let's say Delphine has to die because you know it's a spy movie, and you know, it's like you play the spy game, you die. Whatever. She could have been like dispatched the way any of the men in the movie had been, like very much just like so many dudes, they're like shot through their coat, they're thrown down a flight of stairs. It's treated so much differently. We're like, you know, they're not they're not pretty during any of that, because you never are when you're being shot in the back. Yet like even like the manner of this where it's like there was no knife and bullet involved because in strangulation you keep a pretty body. It's the kind of choices that are made where it's like, well, she still has to be beautiful, and it's like, why she's a spy. She's a spy like everyone else has. She could have just had a spy death right if she has to die for whatever reason, I would have preferred. It's like, for genre reasons, I get what she dies, but it was the way that she died. It was like, well, okay, there were too many deliberate choices in like overkilling a woman, an attractive woman, like do any other character death Delphine could have had that, yeah, yeah, And then adding the barrier gaze trope on top of that is just like none of this is working. And then another aspect of it is that a lot of viewers of this movie accused it of of queer baiting, especially because the queer sex scene is featured very heavily in the trailer in the marketing. Again, it's the other thing where it's like and in fact, like I rewatched the trailer just to just to see it with my own eyes, And basically the entire sex scene that is in the movie is also in the trailer. They barely even edited it down because the sex scene in the movie isn't that long, but they include almost all of it in the trailer, implying that this romantic subplot takes up way more real estate in the movie than it actually does because it's very little of the movie. They should have explained the Cold War in the trailer that um, and then just like in addition to to the queer bating conversation, a lot of people just noted that this sex scene between the two women is framed in such a way to appeal to the male gaze, which kind of harkens back to the conversation we were having earlier. I'm curious about everyone's takes on that because again, it's like, this is not my genre. So I'm like, when I think of action movie sex scene, I don't really know what to think. So I I I saw that many people had that issue with the scene, and it is definitely like a gazey hell scene, like it feels music video in the way it shot. My question is is that how a sex scene in an action movie would normally be shot? Is this normal for the genre? Like I didn't know where to like where to kind of fall there because I was out of my element genre wise. I think it looks like a you know, a softcore like music video. But I'm like maybe that happens in the genre exclusively. I don't know, so a little I hate using the words hotake, but like I personally like I enjoy it because it's very much just one of those just like hell yeah, I love watching girls make out, um, and it is like super stylized. But I was like sitting here thinking about it, and I was just like, what would this look like in a different era with a different star, And I was just like, let's do Schwarzenegger stallone any of those guys. There would have been like a long scene where he's sitting on a bed or are sitting in a chair and she's like doing a coy little strip tease. Uh, and it's just like a lot of him like fully addressed, but she's naked and uh, it's it's the whole walk to the bed and then they're having sex and he's on the bottom and we only see his chest um, and it's just her bouncing on top and it's boobs. So like the second I put someone else in it, and I'm like, yeah, the entire thing like hits differently because like in my head, I also remembered it as far more gratuitous because of the conversation around it and then like rewatching it now, and I was just like, yeah, that's just kind of a few seconds and we're kind of far away and they're both like equally naked and just both participants in this versus like the way I usually see it, where it's just like the girl performing for the guy and then they have sex and then I'm only it's it's just her boob and her her boob. There's two of them, her boobs and her butt the whole time. So like that was one thing that I was like thinking about because I'm like, place it anywhere else and we're getting like a full strip tease. Sure, yeah, it does. It does feel less again, like hyper sexualized and exploitative of if it were like a hetero sex sex scene. I just feel like I was, like I wrote down, like I'm assuming that all sex scenes in all action movies are kind of corny and kind of like very like burn noner like, which is what it felt. I don't I don't know. I was kind of like, I, I mean the same sort of vibe as you've been asked the room, like I I want to see women making out, like I'm I'm all for it, and you don't normally see it in this genre, especially with a woman as the protagonist. And in some ways you're like, oh, okay, so it's a queer couple getting the like corny, horny action movie treatment. But I also can see why people would be frustrated with them. Yeah, it's it's very much like both stances make sense, and it's it's the eighties. The eighties had so many like bonker stylized sex scenes, like all a top gun with like the silhouetted body right right where You're like, this is just a goofy sex genre. I don't know. I mean my person confused. No, it is. It's like I'm like, oh, I'm embarrassed for everybody, but I'm also like horny for everybody, So it's confused. Well yeah, I mean that's the thing, like my personal opinion on it. If I'm like taking off my bech Dol goggles and just like watching it as a sex scene, I was like, damn, this is hot. These two hot people are rubbing up on each other and it's really hot to look at. And is it inherently male gaze because it's a male director, a male cinematographer, et cetera. I can't explain why I knew it was shot by a man when I saw it, but I mean I feel like it is like no, you know, but it also like I think that there is like this kind of discussion to be had about like feminist movies should you know, be inclusive of women having sex and like enjoying sex and like showing that, like, k this like a good well shot sex scene like that can be really great, And like I feel like there's this kind of common stereotype of like feminists don't want to see women have sex in movies at all, And it's like no, no, no, I just I just wanted to be like a shot well, I wanted to like make sense and not be like pandering to like horny exactly, something I actually really appreciated, which like, again, this is bare minimum stuff here, but um, when you're so starved for particular representations, you're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I saw this is They're they're like on a bed, making out, kissing, fooling around. You see. I think it's Charlie's hand go in between Delphine's legs to like stimulate her clitteress guess what I've never fucking seen in a heterosex scene in an action movie is a man stimulating a woman's flow knowing where or what it is. Yeah, exactly what we're doing anything before entering first, Like I brought it up before, but like I go back to Bound for like sex between women so much because like the Wachowski sisters were so fucking smart in that they were like, we're bringing a like feminist sex expert onto set, who's going to like help consult on the best way that we can do this. And also just like how lesbians like touch each other and like how they're going to do this, And it's like a it's like a long gratuitous sex scene, but it's so like not under that gaze because it's so informed and they really did think about like a bringing in consult and be like both actresses in that scene are so comfortable and so like we are actresses that are being directed and like we have a lot of control of the situation that the end product is really hot. That scene is very important to me. I still have to watch I have not seen Bound, but it's my favorite movie. It's really really good. Come back on the show and talk about it with us. Yeah, um, yeah, I guess it's I guess where I fell in the sex scene is I understand where the criticism was coming from. But it was corny and horny in a way that felt true to the genre, not to I mean, it's like I'm in no way handing it to the cinematographer of Transformers Dark of the Moon. Don't get me wrong, this is not Yeah. I didn't feel like a I don't know, like a WATERSHD moment of like wow, but it was like it was a hot scene with sex. I feel like, yeah, like I almost subject more to how how much the trailer, you know, made it seem like this is the movie than than the actual scene in the actual movie, because it's such a blip, such a blip. I'm way more kind of annoyed that Delphine ended up being such a kind of like nothing of a character when she should have been a something of a character than the sex scene. She had so much build up. She there's like both on like what the actress could do and also what they like put into the movie, like those little bits of dialogue we get out of her, Like we deserved more from Delphine. Agree, heart agree, But that's what you get when you have a movie directed by a man, a screenplay written by a man, adapted from a graphic novel by a man who didn't even include that character as a woman to begin with. So so that's that's the thing that ultimately is frustrating for me about this movie is like I enjoyed it, and the I mean, the action alone makes this movie worth watching. If you're going for the plot, probably skip it because the plot makes no fucking sense, not unless you're a Cold War scholar. And even then, and even then maybe it's wrong. I have no idea, we can't we couldn't tell you. But like, the action is so good, and it's so clear that you're in the hands of experts in terms of shooting and executing a really really cool action movie. But it's so like boys boys, boys, boys, boys, boys, boys, and if you look at their background, what do they do? They work with other boys, and it's just like, Yeah, this director also directed Deadpool Deadpool too, as well as the music video for Ashes by Celene Dione. What I mean, I'm very fascinated by David. I mean, he seems like, I mean, what a story, what a life. He has done so much shit. He has an incredibly cool and kind of like pretty singular career. Yeah, I just I don't. I mean, I guess in this situation, I wonder why. And it's kind of a non issue because it's like, well, Charlie's chose her director, she chose the team she wanted, so who are we right? Like, there is a woman at the top of this production, but I do wish that there were more women included in meaningful roles. There are, there are several female producers on the project. But I just I guess, my I don't see why this screenplay needed to be written by a guy, Like I don't think there's certain things where I'm like for action purposes, I understand why she chose who she shows. I feel like this movie really would have benefited from a female writer working on it, female writer, female stone a photographer. Uh, this movie was edited by a woman, which is pretty cool. Uh. And this is an Icelandic name that I will almost certainly absolutely butcher but um but try Elisabet ronald Or. I feel like with a lot of Icelandic names, the e does more than I expect it to do. So I always botch it. Yeah, we also can't say David. Yeah, I was struggling on that one. But yeah, like the second you have more women involved like making some of these choices. It's how I know I said it once before, but it's how we get Birds of Prey. It's how we get that hair time moment. It's it's it's how we get something where it's just like, all right, this feels more informed. It's like the night and day difference in Harley's like costuming to where it's like, you know, she still gets to be like cute and thought e, but it's like in a way that makes sense to her because she's wearing like sneakers where like one of the things I did note about this movie, like the wardrobing, is Lorraine is wearing high heels in almost every scene and it's like you can't fight and what come on? So I was like, that's a little I'm not sure about that, but I mean it looks cool, but it's also not practical nor realistic. But it's also an action movie, so I d K. This is a very white movie. Um everyone is white in it, yes, the end, like everyone everyone, and and it's like don't tell me there were only white people living in Berlin. Don't tell me you couldn't have like diversified the agents, Like there's no reason that both of the agents interviewing Charlie's had to be white. Like it's just it's one of those things where it's just like and you know, there's always gonna be some words like it was Europe, but like we could to spend her disbelief that like all of the diagenic music is playing simultaneously in the just like this really weird week that she's having, we can't like throw in someone else. And it's like there's always been people who aren't white in Berlin, like Berlin is a super divers Ah, It's it's really annoying. Yeah, there's no need. Does anyone have any other thoughts about the film? Does anyone notice when John Goodman was wearing a hat? I'm kidding, I don't have any film honestly, I would just say, I just want more of Charlie's doing this forever, Like clearly it's what she wants to do. She like her affinity for martial arts is one of my favorite things because she's just slowly like picking up all of these different skills that makes her both an incredible performer, but just like, good god, how intimidating could someone be? Or it's just like, I know, I don't know if she knows kype Awera, but I'm going to assume that she does probably. But I just I want more Western action stars. I want more women in action. I want more people that I actually like learn and like their own fight coreo. And I also want more like older actors to be able to because it's such a bummer that like a lot of these actors have been around forever doing direct to video and now that they're actually like starting to like get their flowers and they're older, I'm like, I still want them to be involved in their forties fifties. I don't care. Yeah, God, I was like Charlie's is like, Charlie's should be an action star into her like seventies and eighties if she wants to. Certainly hasn't stopped American action stars being like, yeah, look at Bruce willis expendable, right, and also none of the fighting is good in the expendables. No, I would be very excited too. I also saw that um Atomic Blonde or Lorraine might enter the john Wick universe at some point and that they too might intersect, Like, oh, that would be kind of cool. I don't know. I would be stoked to see a sequel for this, and I would, honestly, I mean, I would love to see action Charlie's in a movie directed and written by women who excel in the action genre. That would be like god tear because she's fucking yes. Oh. My last thought was the title of this movie, which is reducing a woman to her hair color. Um, isn't it an existing term? Is that? I don't know. I'm not sure. Isn't it? Is it? Or is it a play on like atomic bomb? Yeah? Yeah, I get My thing was like, I mean, john Wick wasn't called john Wick has dark brown hair? Yeah? Maybe it should have been. Maybe it should have been, especially because like the graphic novel was based that this movie was based on is called The Coldest City. So it's it's changing it too from what I can tell the color of the hair of the protagonist. But yeah, and it had the same name as the graphic novel for a while. I'm wondering when in development it changed, because you even see a nod to it at the end. Credits where it like comes up and he goes password and it types in like the Coldest War and like it unlocks the credits. And that's because that was like the original name for like however long before some producer was like I want this. That does sound like something a studio would do to be like wait a second, like get her pretty hair. Yeah, it's very studio note Anyway, that was just my final thought. Does it pass the back adults past? It does? Between Delphine and the rain, Um, yeah, they do talk about Percival and just maybe some other men. But yeah, there's there's a pretty long conversation where they're where Dolphin's like, I don't even know what I'm doing? How do you? How do you spy? You're talking about how little she wants to be a spy, and like the overarching story is just Lorraine talking about her day. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, listen to women talk about their days. They don't think they actually want to be spies. After all? Too late r I P. Let's let's go to the nipple scale. Oh yes, our nipple scale zero to five nipples based on an examination of intersectional feminism. I think I'll give this two and a half or three. Maybe it's too harsh, maybe that's too generous. I truly never know what to rate any movie on our scale, but I mean, I think it's really cool that you have this what was like a box office success. A lot of people saw this movie, female driven action movie with really really cool fight choreography and really really cool action and just like solidifying Charlie's as a legitimate action movie star. Um, some you know, missteps were I just I think while it's a step forward to include a queer character as the hero of an action movie, it doesn't necessarily mean that that representation was like the most responsible. Especially it's like the use of the different tropes and things like that. Um, there's still a ways to go, but the fact that it is there, it feels like a you know, we talked about this a lot where there's a an unfortunate need for like stepping stone movies that like pave the way for more responsible and inclusive representation. So that's what this feels like. I think that there definitely could have been any diversity and instead it's just a bunch of white people. So you know, there's some some things that I would change to improve this movie. But uh and I mean, gosh, someone take another pass at the script and make it less confusing, please, Yeah, Like, let's cut out a couple of character, a couple of bearded guys. I was thinking, So I did not Okay, another thing. I had no idea who she was killing in that last scene. I was like, who is this? Huh? That was the main Soviet bad guy, but he's only in a couple of scenes before that, pretty briefly. And then there's another Soviet bad guy who then dies halfway through, and it's like, can't you just combine those two characters? I thought it was him, and I was like, I thought he was dead there, And when I looked it up, it was like, oh, no, she could he was at a restaurant earlier. I was like, yes, uh yeah, But but I was like I was supposed to care about that. That was confusing. Too many people to look after. There's there's too many men to keep you. I mean, I I guess I can, um, you know, empathize with Lorraine too, because she was able to keep all these men, you know, like straight in her head. I couldn't couldn't do the job, No wonder she needed the list. She was like, who the funk are all these people? But yeah, so you know that has nothing to do with, you know, how we examine the movie, but I still like, well, it kind of does, because I'm like, I wish there were just like better movies that are going to like stand the test of time and that people are going to like watch over and over and over again because they're just like such good movies that star women. I don't know how, like how much longevity this movie will have because it is kind of like, you know, there's some rocky storytelling happening. So it's like, not only do we have to represent women responsibly in movies, but like make sure the stories that are being told are like good and like that people will like them and want to keep rewatching them so that we just like have those movies to to revisit and connect with as audiences. So with all that in mind, I'll still give it three nipples, and I'll give one to Charlie's I will give one to Delphine because she deserved more, and you know what, I'll give one to John Goodman's hat. Yeah I was doing some real acting. Yeah, it really stole the show. I really did I'll go. I guess I'll go three as well. I'm tended to go a little lower, but I can't fully articulate WI, so I won't. Um. Yeah, I I think that the action in this movie is sucking incredible. Charlie's carries it the action sequences for the most part, except how Delphine is killed. Um. I thought, we're like really really cool and just like in like American movies, like you just don't get a lot of it. And and I loved that Charlie's was like the driving force behind getting this project made and getting it made the way she wanted it. Like those stories are always so cool and like give you hope. Um, even though the you know, precedent of all you know having to already be ridiculously successful in order to get a movie the way you want it made is frustrating and not always I mean, I love using that little Wes Anderson anecdote of like someone just being like, here's ten million dollars, see what you've come up with? Um, But she, you know, she she got it made, she got it made the way she wanted to, and she kicks fucking ass in it. Uh. And I'm deducting for I didn't like how Delphin's character was kind of like slowly scaled down, scaled down and then killed in lingerie um in a way that would you know, keep her looking a very particular way when the body was found. And it's just kind of a such a sausage party on the on the production side, and in terms of I think, particularly with the writer where like like we were talking about I just a straight guy being like would it be cool? Like is just you can tell? I don't know? That is literally what they did. They're like, yeah, this is gonna be hot and cool and provocative if we make women kiss each other the word provocative. You're like, okay, So they just like we just need other voices in the room here, Like, uh so yeah, I'll go I'll go with three. And it was a fun movie, fucking confusing as hell. Uh but like for in terms of the action, it's unbelievable. So I will give a nipple to Charlie's and I would give a nipple to Bill Scarce Guard, and I'll give a nipple to Delphine Vanessa. What about you? Um, I mean, y'all covered a lot of the same reasons. For like the reading, I want to give it um although I am, I'm giving it a three and a half nipples, And there's a there's a specific reason for the half and that's because anybody that's ever just like watched a lot of like action martial arts punching knows that like a lot of like male action stars get to have their like direct to video movies or like the action is dope, but the story stinks and it's kind of middling, and yeah, you know what, I want female action stars to also be able to comfortably live in just like mediocre and may because we either have to be incredible or we don't exist. And like, honestly, if Charlie's does a million movies where it's just like, uh, are we there yet, but with punching, because you know, she just decides to do the direct to video action thing, then like cool, I want that for women to So the half star is because I want. I I love any opportunity in which women just gets to get to have an thing. And that's fine, Yes, that's very true. Yeah, getting mediocrity accessible to everyone should be a priority. Dude, get to do it all the time, too much, amazing, Well, thank you so much for being here. You come back anytime. I would love to. This is so fun. And tell us about the podcast. Oh yeah, Kicking and Screaming is a podcast I co host with my husband. I actually came in as the screaming and because he was the one with the martial arts background, and like loved it, but then I ended up just falling deeply in love with both genres. But basically what we do is, uh, we take either a horror movie or an action martial arts movie, and one of us picks one, and then the other one has to counter with one of the other genre to make a double feature, because frequently, if you like one, you're going to like the other one. A lot of horror people don't realize they love martial arts yet, and a lot of people that are like into kung fu movies don't realize that they like horror yet. So for example, like there was one were I did pick Bright of Chucky and he picked The Heroes of the East, which is another really good one with a female action star at the Helm, which was like a marriage based one. But I end up finding out stuff I didn't know that i'd love yet, or just examining stuff that I already dug and it's just a fun little genre party. So awesome, thank you. And then where can people follow you online? Your social media? Anything else you want to plug? Oh? Yeah, you can find me under at ness grittin it's still my ex husband's name. Any s g R I T T O N on all forms of social media. Uh. You can find the actual podcast, kick screen Pod under kick screen Pod on all firms of social media. And if you're into horror, I just did a series where I interviewed some incredible women filmmakers and horror for a Women in Horror series and it's one of my favorite series of interviews I've ever done. You can watch me slowly fall in love with every single one of these filmmakers. That's awesome. Oh that's so cool. Uh. And then you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at bechtel Cast. You can subscribe to our Matreon at patreon dot com slash becktel Cast. It get to you two bonus episodes a month. It's five dollars. And then there's also our entire back catalog of bonuses. So scoot on over to Patreon and subscribe. Good scoot. Just to reminder Jamie that um I am defecting from the Bechtel Cast. Uh. You can find us on at Behind the Bastards UM just where our podcast is now okay by everyone,