Sri Lanka’s Meditation Renaissance: Forest Practice & the Magic of the Mind | Ven. Chandaratana Q&A

[music]
Today we're joined uh by venerable
Chandarata uh Kap Podur and so good to
have you venerable.
>> Yeah, nice to meet you. Hi.
>> Um I wanted to begin by just reading
your introduction for all those present.
Venerable Panadur Chandarato ordained as
a Buddhist monk at Naana Forest
Monastery in 2008 under the guidance of
the most venerable Naoane Aridamaka
Mahatero. Over the next six years, he
engaged in rigorous training in both
samata and vapasa meditation under
revered teachings teachers including
most venerable Arya Nandanda Mahatero
and venerable Sri Nyanasiri Tero. He
spent several years teaching and
practicing abroad before returning to
Sri Lanka and taking up residence at
Nisara Vanaya forest monastery in 2015
where he has been practicing under the
most venerable U Damaga Mahhatero
Damajiva Mahatero and serving as the
deputy abbott since 2017.
Combining a background in information
technology with decades of deep
practice, he inspires meditators around
the world through his rare fusion of
contemplative depth, modern knowledge,
and compassionate service. He's also
written the book Signless and Emptiness,
uh, a commentary on the Satipatana Suta
and one on the Upadana Suta. Bonte,
forgive me for all the mispronunciations
there. It is so great to have you on and
I got to you visited us for alms round
uh last month I believe which was a real
pleasure and just getting some time with
you.
>> Yeah, it's nice to meet you again. So as
you mentioned that it was a really nice
uh time I spent with you at Seattle and
it was a really nice uh encountering of
you of your colleagues and uh you know
that some are interested and then uh we
had a Steve with Steve you know that we
had another evening session that's a
very good participation and uh really
nice they are happening in uh Seattle
it's interesting to be there we'll see
you again. [laughter]
>> We're we're hoping you get to come by on
your next visit through um but we
appreciate you joining even from across
the Pacific. And one thing when we
initially invited you for this date um I
thought it was very beautiful. Your
first response was that this was the
birthday uh December 11th uh which is
the date currently for you in Sri Lanka
was the birthday of venerable Matara Sri
Nyanarama Mahatero who I believe was
your teacher's teacher and the founder
and first abbot of uh the monastery
where you currently um are deputy abbot
as well and you asked to speak about him
and I thought that request from you at
the beginning of the interview was just
so beautiful and respectful um that I
wanted to have that be our first
question. So would you speak about this
teacher and what he meant to you um and
kind of what teachings of his has have
continued to to resonate um what his
legacy has been? Yeah, actually you know
that in Sri Lanka due to various reasons
uh the Buddhist practice was somewhat uh
uh discouraged and monks were only
practicing at the temples and there was
no in-depth practice into meditation. So
most renderable matrao
combined with most
so they decided to start forest
tradition again that was in 1951.
So they were actually the prominent
teachers at the what we call as the
pirveners you know those are the uh
teaching uh monasteries or teaching
institutes for the monks. Uh but they
were only doing only to the parati side
only to the learning side but now they
want to particularly emphasize the
patipati side. So the meditative
meditative say understanding side. So
that's why they started a group of
monasteries forest monasteries in 1951
June 18 and uh then Mitriala Nisaran was
started in 1967
and the first abort and the chief
preceptor was most mature
and uh so his presence was quite known
to many people and many even foreign
monks were attracted and there was a
good legacy he started and He started he
he published several books. So he's good
in Sanskrit, Singhalis and Pali. He's an
expert in that area. And so he has
published several books even in
Sanskrit, Pali and Singhalis. And uh so
certain books actually even translated
to English like the seven stages of
purification
uh then seven uh contemplations of
insight. So those two books were
translated into English also available
and those were translated by the BPS you
know that bulit Buddhist publication
society. So they translated that and uh
so actually I the most inspiring book I
read about him is called the Amabindu
the uh drops of nectar if he if he
translate it to English the Amabindu.
While I was in Nawana, I was also
searching to whom to uh take as a role
model and I read many books about
various monks and uh this book which is
written by uh many authors many have
contributed after the passing away of
Nyanaro and uh so they are talking about
him in a very del kind of an eminent
way. But interesting thing is Nana
Ramato also has contributed his own
autobiography there but he was talking
about his mistakes and you know flaws
and various areas that he could have
done well. So it's a very honest way of
inner reflection. It really inspired me
how how he is actually uh
uh handled and how how what he want to
do by starting this forest tradition in
Sri Lanka and now it has developed to
around 200 forest monasteries uh
throughout the country and certain
monasteries like Nisaran now Galdu so
likewise there are many very established
very well-known uh forest monasteries
already available and uh So the little
thing that they have started by spending
more time into meditation and
emphasizing the patipatic side the more
principle wise uh uh reestablishment of
the forest tradition. So that was uh one
of the in a way kind of resurgence of
the country's Buddhist activities
because uh after various kind of issues
the country has gone through that you
know that Sri Lanka was almost 100 years
under the uh colonial situation. So as a
result of that the Buddhist values and
the practice was really affected. But
this uh uh starting of the forest
tradition what we call as the Sri
Kalyani yoga sansa in 1951 helped back
to establish a very practicing Buddhist
again. So now Buddhist meditation is
very popular in Sri Lanka and uh in in
Sarna we conduct almost every throughout
the year we conduct retreats and uh
that's a very good participation
actually we can occupy around 90 people
at a time and we have a separate retreat
center at Nisan so that's a very good
participation and uh now fair amount of
Sri Lankans are into the spiritual side
and they're talking about meditation
meditation.
So that is something that I can see that
how that what matrio
and
have started has now spread out and many
people are become practicing Buddhist.
Yeah, as I admitted before we went live,
you know, my my own knowledge of
Buddhism [clears throat] in Sri Lanka is
just so limited. And I think for the
most part, most uh Buddhists, maybe even
most Buddhists around the world, our
knowledge is very parochial. That means,
you know, we know our own type of
Buddhism or our own
>> subset of a subset, but we don't know
much else. Um so I find it really
interesting that to the extent that I
know about uh Buddhism in Sri Lanka, I
know about uh Nana forest monastery
where I actually went and stayed for two
nights with a group of pok monks from
Thailand. Um and then also Mitrigala,
Nisara, Vania. And I think why I know
those is because uh meditation monks and
forest monks in our tradition who've
gone to Sri Lanka because they wanted to
explore the vignia keeping forest
tradition, meditation traditions uh have
really uh foregrounded those two
monasteries as being places to visit. So
I hope to be able to talk about uh and
hear more about both of those
monasteries and specifically we're on
while we're on the topic of Mitrigala
that Sri Matara Nyanarama started um one
of its mottos which I find really
impressive and I know Bikubodi uh
visited there and actually maybe even
meditated with Matara Nyanarama
but their motto is Nibbana in this life.
Nibbana in this life and it says that uh
the whole of practice is for uh maga
pala in nibbana the uh paths and fruits
and nibbana and that is a very um that's
a very bold motto to have. It's actually
on your website on the Mitriala website
and so I'm curious if you could talk
about how you you frame that you're the
deputy abida mitrigala nisar navania and
how is that frame for the monastics who
live there and for the meditators that
come and practice there
>> yeah so it's both actually the thing is
that uh you know that uh uh as I said uh
once the Buddhist uh practice was
somewhat
uh subjected to certain kind of an
influence coming from these various
incidents happened in Sri Lanka uh
before the starting of this forest
tradition. So the nibbana was out of
their scope. So nobody nobody thought
that this practice is possible still the
goama Buddha's dispensation is
available. So that that has gone out of
the scope and they were thinking okay
now uh we have to wait till the maya
Buddha to appear and now the now these
attainments are not available not even
jana is available and no point of
practicing nowadays and people going to
meditate can become crazy so these kind
of weird ideas were there in Sri Lanka
so after the starting of mitria nisaran
and actually nana rather even has gone
to a level of finding the original you
know that old sources. So he has
published a book called vipasana
parapura generations of vipasana the
inside meditation. So there he tried to
uh uncover various traditions available
in Sri Lanka particularly various
schools talking different aspects of
vipasana. So he combined things together
and published this withasana parapura
and then uh even about the nibbana there
are various misconceptions
and uh thinking that nibbana is a you
know that kind of eternal state eternal
place or something like that. So then he
invited
to start a series of dhama sermons
particularly explaining about nibbar. So
it's in happened in in
it consisted of 33 sermons and later it
was translated into English by himself
by most
so in sing we call nima so the nibana
the mindstilled so those are available
freely in the kundos website called the
seen through the net.net net. So the
nibbana the mind still did a very very
very inspiring series of sermons
particularly
wants to explain about the concepts
around the nibbana and uh using
particularly the early Buddhist
teachings and uh sometimes arguing about
the certain commentarial explanations
and how how how correct they are and
he's giving his own uh explanations
according to the early Buddhist
teachings how how another big better
interpretation is available about nibban
or any other concept and it's a very
very inspiring series of uh sermons and
at nisarn we often take his books
kundo's
books like concept and reality nibbana
this nibana the mind and then the magic
of the mind so these are the very
interesting books compiled by nana
nandandao so interesting thing is the
other thing is nana rathero himself was
encouraging when Janand to conduct this
series of sermons and he himself was
listening to those sermons and
encouraging him because immediately
Nanaando
didn't accept the invitation because
it's a it can become a kind of a
controversial thing. So if the old uh
certain teachings are you know tried to
prove in a different way but when really
encourage him to don't don't don't worry
just mention my name so I am the one
inviting you to conduct so likewise he
really encouraged him to conduct and
then it has become really popular and I
found that you know that buanalo has
conducted this nibban the mind state at
a recent time uh as a free course at the
numata center and so likewise you can
see that it's a very known series of
dharma sermons so this is how uh so the
nibbana has become something that we
have to aspire it is not something not
accessible so it is I mean these
teachings are still available this the
Buddha's teaching is still live so so
it's kind of an encouragement for us to
practice because otherwise if we don't
have any idea or if we if we if you are
going ahead with a very vague big
situation then people are not uh
inspired to practice the Buddha's
teaching but the naanaros andos this
intervention really inspired the people
to practice okay still available I mean
you guys have to practice you have to
put forth some effort and then these
things are possible so likewise a big
encouragement has happened because of
the this nana and nanandandao this
combination so I think uh therefore This
moto at
that nibana in this very life is
something therefore the for the monks
and as well as for the practitioners uh
kind of an encouraging way of uh
practice just to practice not not just
to go ahead with the learning and you
know only for the academic stuff but
giving some emphasis for the practice
>> it's um interesting I'm struck by the
parallels between nana rama tarot and
Longportcha Ajin Cha and our tradition
who
>> you know these these sort of towering
figures that revitalized a huge portion
of the practice tradition and just as a
lot of people in the US encounter
Longport Shaw's ripples through you know
disciples like Jack Kornfielder you know
not even realizing they're being
affected by his teachings some people
may not realize that you know Nyanorama
Tarot um you know encouraging
Nanaandanda uh to write Nabana of the
mind still which deeply influenced uh
Ponte Analio and he's had profound
effect. Um I believe Nyanandanda was the
first one to translate Papon's
proliferation as well and
>> just seeing these ripples spread out
it's it's a pleasure to get to kind of
trace it back to to the source on or one
of the sources on his birthday as well.
Um and just to kind of bring it down to
something very practical. Um with
conceiving of Nibana as being possible
in this very life, you worked as a
software engineer. Um you know you were
immersed in the world and all those
currents of paponcha of proliferation
which you know insidiously uh have made
their way into most of our psyches.
Many moderns, modern people just have a
lot of trouble um with that whole
samadei part of the you know training um
bringing the mind to calm so that they
can see with insight. What have you
found is effective teaching people in
terms of just calming their mind down to
deep samadei? Like how do you instruct
people? Do you use um noting practice
like the mahasi method? Do you lean into
loving kindness? Or do you teach
anapanosati a bit? Could you give us
kind of a a a rundown or a tool belt of
the most effective meditation means you
found for bringing people's minds to
calm in this day and age?
>> Yeah, very interesting. So the thing is
uh one thing as you mentioned uh because
nowadays people are more into thinking
and proliferation and overthinking
obsessive thinking all sort of things
are there and nowadays the modern tools
the techniques uh technology also has
great influence on people's to get
distracted and think too much again. So
people are coming from various this kind
of a behavior and so it's very difficult
to give a one set of uh meditation
instruction okay you all do this
something like that
so but uh certain mindfulness practices
are quite commonly used like say for
example mindful walking so at Nisaran we
really emphasize mindful walking so it's
a very uh interesting practice and you
can if you find nisan there are many
walking paths available at many places
and closer to the meditation hall and to
each uh our couties we have a separate
walking path. So likewise we encourage
mindful walking seriously and uh so
interesting thing is so mindful walking
through mindful walking the people can
really calm down their thinking. So
again and again the high emphasis is
onto the kayan passa. Okay you come to
the body develop body awareness again
and again pay attention to the touch
sensation and as you said we sometimes
use the uh knotting. So if you are right
foot is touching okay you can note it as
right left foot is touching you can note
it as left or else you can not it
lifting moving placing. So like that. So
the these kind of very little uh
knotting techniques really help them to
calm down their thinking and uh pay
further attention to the body sensation.
And then uh sometimes we ask them to
practice anapana if they are convenient
or else then we we ask them to practice
rising and falling of the abdomen
>> because these two techniques are
actually at Nisan many techniques are
being used. We can't say we are only
targeting one just one technique but we
are encouraging them to use various
techniques because in Sri Lanka you know
that the uh for guardian meditations
meta and maranaati those are quite known
to people and as a big as a preparatory
practice they do little bit of maybe
Buddha or meta but then we encourage
into satipara
particularly say kayasana
this uh encouraging them to establish
mindfulness on the body and maybe with
panai and once they are established in
any form then as a result of the
development of the mindfulness sadi
become a available or accessible part.
So for example at the beginning they it
appear like difficult to pay attention
but slowly slowly as they train the mind
then they find okay now I can pay
attention to five steps 10 steps 20
steps maybe throughout the round I can
pay attention through the walking or if
they are practicing anapanasi okay now I
can continuously watch 20 breaths say 50
breaths 100 breaths so that means slowly
the the samadi factor also is emerging
urging as a result of the development of
the mindfulness. So therefore rather
than we motivate them to target samadi
we encourage them to practice
mindfulness. So as a result of the
mindful practice of mindfulness slowly
they they start feeling the uh samadhi
as well. So once samadi is available
fair amount of concentration is
available and then we can look into the
vipasana aspects.
Bonte, I'm curious if you could say more
about the practice at uh the monastery
that you ordained at at Wat uh Naana. Um
so when I went there, it was had already
kind of become a Pak almost branch
monastery. So Pakidal being a Burmese
meditation master who teaches
um a kind of a different approach than
the one you just laid out. So he very
much at least traditionally doesn't
emphasize walking meditation. So the
meditation center that I stayed at just
had an airconditioned damal but really
[snorts] I was even uh kind of chastised
for doing some walking meditation once.
Um and so after that I just did it
elsewhere. But um yeah, and and it's
very regulated like you're on a very a
path of just paying attention to the
breath at the tip of the nose and it
doesn't go into those four guardian
meditations right off the bat. Um and
also just so the practice at Naana
that's how I experienced it to the
extent that I did. Um and also the
geography of Naana. Um there's a Seattle
lay woman um who's currently going there
to practice for an extended period of
time. And when I visited there were
three different kind of layers to the
monastery like a public-f facing lower
level and then like a very forested
other level and then even further off it
was maybe even more remote. Um could you
talk about your experience there both
with the meditation meth method and with
the geography of the monastery if it was
different then or if it's similar to
what I'm putting forth now
>> so I spent around six years at now and
as you said practice p method throughout
this six years and as you said it's a
samat oriented vipasana practice so uh
the method is uh taken from the visi and
uh uh and somewhat related with Abidama.
And uh so they they asked the
practitioners to go through some severe
uh uh say practice on the jana and say
go with
what we call
and many different techniques are taught
to attain jana and then as to
practicementation
as per explained by shadow. So power
shadow has some formulated various
uh techniques available in
uh visi
and uh so that is how uh
a different kind of technique is for the
practitioners uh
as a result of the formulation of this
method and uh the thing is uh for me I
felt okay uh a more open kind of a
practice and uh say uh as you said the
walking meditation was quite helpful
while I was at now you know actually I
was practicing power while I was
practicing power method I still used
walking meditation many others also are
using but I don't know the current
situation but we were using walking
meditation even at now but after coming
to nisar noa and then went through a
meditation retreat with Sadu Pandida. I
found giving emphasis to Satipatana
becomes a very important uh say coming
back to my practice because sometimes
when we are recommendating so many
different types of practices we might we
might lose our base. I feel the
Satipatana is the kind of a base that
Buddha has taught us and even he
mentioned it as the herit heritage of
the Buddha. Right. The the heritage of
the Buddha he encouraged as the
satiphatan. Okay. Monks you shouldn't
leave the heritage of the Buddha.
Heritage of the the father. So the pur
what in singhala we call the heritage of
the Buddha the inheritance of the
buddha. So that is the sadhipatan. So so
when someone is practicing satipatan the
interesting thing I found is that his uh
proliferation become less and less. So
he become more and more aware of what is
going on and once the mindfulness is
coupled with the clear comprehension
sati and saja
then kind of an autocorrection starts
kind of a the mind starts looking at us
kind of a monitoring process is going on
and that monitoring process actually
start correcting us. So Buddha
emphasized that like
>> [clears throat]
>> So emphasize so when one is practicing
sativana
the interesting thing is so naturally
you start abandoning the unh wholesome
activities unh wholesome qualities in
you and you only try to accommodate the
wholesome qualities and whatever
erroneous uh fault kind of uh mistakes
that you try to abandon and only the
correct and the more useful practices
you start to uh get the benefit and then
as a result of that more and more your
mind become purified your behavior
become more purified so that is the
theme of the sadhipatana so Buddha
explains sadhipatana for a person to
purify oneself to purify their mind so
that something that is something that
people start recognizing it is not that
you are believing rather you as a result
of the practice is you start recognizing
it is happening with me. So my mind was
like this. Okay. As a result of this
practice, okay, my mind is like this. So
so as a result of this, so you start
recognizing even various emotions,
various mind states, various defilements
happening in the mind. So so slowly
slowly it's a purification process is
emerging in you. So you start purifying
the mind. So I I therefore like to
emphasize the sadhipatana practice uh as
our uh theme of the practice.
You are you are free to take the
advantage of various other little
meditation techniques but keeping
mindfulness practice satipana practice
kapasana vanasa chitanasa damasana as
the basis I feel it it's giving us a
very good uh foundation and not only a
foundation but it is taking you to
understand the defilements various
traits in you and how to abandon those
traits and more and more keeping the
mind into the silence when it is
necessary you can think but still how to
achieve kind of a very simple awareness
ongoing mindfulness uh kind of inner
silence. So these are the areas that I
found uh quite interesting in the
practice. So so that's why I have
changed from Nisan. So [laughter]
and again I was quite inspired by
Nanaro's explan the example as well as
from theundano's
teachings. I was quite inspired.
Yeah, that's great general advice. And
I'm curious um in general if you could
speak a little bit about the geography
of Naana just because we're going to be
creating a monastery on the ground and a
couple questions around that. Is is the
Seattle lay woman who's going to stay
there for an extended period, is that
normal? Like can lay people just go and
stay there kind of at that lower level
um of the mountain or of the property?
Um or did she get some kind of special
dispensation?
>> Uh actually now you know as far as I
know during those times uh so the lower
monastery as you said they cater the the
different uh say needs of the lay people
as well and they do the sermons and uh
all other activities are going on. The
middle mountain uh is particularly for
the practice and there's a separate
meditation hall and monks are on silent
retreat most of the time and they only
come to the lower monastery to
participate to the upeta and then as you
said there's a far monastery in the
matal side uh where uh monks are moving
to uh their own practice and it's kind
of an isolation and so that like that
kind of a three layers are there So I
have spent in all these three layers.
[laughter]
So so actually I have got a lot of
benefit from all these three areas
because I was at the middle mountain for
one and a half years and then uh in
isolation another sometime and then
again come back to the lower monastery
to start teaching and you know certain
activities. Uh and yes they are actually
even now nowadays they even further
expanded now they have a separate
monastery for teaching uh what we call
the now dharma a separate completely
separate monastery established that
happened recently and uh and there's a
separate nanar also available apart from
the n monastery so it's a a huge
organization it has become nani on the
other hand so we are in
uh very strict forest reservation. So we
are not allowed to expand. So Nisania is
a uh under the forest department of Sri
Lanka. It's a government department. So
we are not allowed to expand. So we we
only allowed to uh do our activities
within 28 acres. So we are in a way a
little bit limited in that sense. So as
a result of that what we do is we are
finding various other branch monasteries
and even now I'm spending my time in
Asata branch monastery that's a new
monastery added to Nisan and likewise
separate few branch monasteries are
established to Nisarna and lay people
are coming to Nisan to practice and
there are residential facilities
available and many foreigners are also
coming and there are residential
facilities available.
and instructions are also given and they
can come and meet the monks and ask kind
of questions related to meditation. So
very good uh kind of a relationship is
available at Nisan also
sounds like a meditation layer cake
sounds quite good the different
[laughter] levels um and hearing hearing
um hope that was respectful to say it
sounds [clears throat] great um it was
delicious. Uh thank you uh
Bonte speaking about so you pointing out
the satiphatana the foundations of
mindfulness as a key foundation makes a
lot of sense um especially you know the
noting practice of mahasi knowing um is
such a helpful support for that and just
the fact that this knowing quality
watching and self-correcting as you said
um all four sati makes so much sense and
really purifying that that quality that
knows experience in those four domains
One thing I find for many modern
practitioners is they know they should
be doing that and they have all the
willpower in the world but there's just
the samadei and the pleasure don't come
and
>> so you as you mentioned at Naana spent a
long time on deep retreat and you had to
be getting some pleasure during that
time. Um, and so I'm curious, you know,
what skillful means would you advise
people who, you know, maybe they've
tried counting their breath and it just
feels like counting breath and that's as
far as it goes and it feels dry or
they've tried, you know, doing noting
practice and just find it becomes an act
of will. There's no juiciness to their
practice. How do you advise someone in
that situation? Um, yeah. Where does the
joy in practice come from? what what
roots to joy can you give us
>> or or pity and suka all that
>> yeah the thing is uh I think uh this is
a kind of initial problem that we have
so because the practice itself actually
will generate pisuka as you go on but
immediately it might not be available so
as you said when you start satipana
practice it appear like very dry because
again and again you are paying attention
And you are asked to uh establish
mindfulness and there is no much joy
arising but uh with time it happens. Now
the breath can become a beautiful breath
and it can become a way of uh giving you
some joy and uh so therefore I I uh
and at Nisaron we are not uh sort of uh
asking them to go for janna by the way
but before that we asked them to p get
into vipasana and uh so
I don't think that uh
uh spending
It's a kind of a kind of a controversial
thing. So if one has the capacity can
spend some time in Jana and you know
some inspiration from there and that's
okay but uh
we vipasana because uh we have very
limited time. So
>> if we are spending fair amount of time
and we are sort of uh expecting
happiness only through the sam practice
only through various other means then
then how to get the happiness of the
inner calmness uh the say purity of the
mind uh say the touching of the Buddha
some teachings so that is also giving us
a lot of happiness. Now say for example
when you are in certain amount of
silence and reading a book and listening
to a certain dharma sermon and uh which
also encourages very purified mind very
calm relaxed quiet mind it also giving
you a lot of inspiration. Now say for
example when when you are reading niban
the mind still say the magic of the mind
so any other book whatever talking about
the meditation but if you are really
able to touch it if you really able to
experience it and you feel okay inspired
okay my goodness I am also there I I I
can really touch it I can really
experience it so likewise I feel the
dhapiti also is something the that that
the gain that you are Breaking through
the association of the dharma, reading
the dharma, listening to dharma also
gives us a lot of inspiration and also
it confirms that the path that you are
taken is correct.
Other than that I sometimes ask them to
practice Buddha sati and say meta if
they are willing to and if they find
it's difficult for them to immediately
come to satipatan okay you can practice
uh anapana sorry this meta or buddha or
any other technique that they are
familiar with to give some practice
actually that is emphasized by the
Buddha in bikana
and apanid bahavana so they Buddha
emphasize in case if you find the sadana
practice appear like little dry okay you
are free to switch to a little bit of
your your familiar your
uh say uh most interested type of
meditation maybe sam meditation spend
some time there again motivate the mind
again derive some joy happiness and
again switch back to the satipana so
Buddha also has encouraged so therefore
uh I feel This kind of combination can
help the people the practitioners to
develop certain amount of joy and uh
later I feel that inner happiness inner
joy may be accessible to them without
going for typical uh mundane kind of
happiness.
>> Bunte in your book uh signless and
emptiness um you point to something
similar. You talk about five different
supports
um which I think are found in the
Majimanaya as being five supports for
right view and those are morality uh
having heard the teachings or listening
to dharma uh vipasana and the third one
is uh saka
so discussion discussion and I'm curious
about this factor of um yeah the support
of discussion And how um yeah what is
what does that look like in Mitrigala?
Um is this in between retreats? Are
retreats noble silence and then there's
noble discussion or um this supportive
discussion in between retreats or are
the retreats not noble silence or are
the monks? Yeah. So what how does how
does this work? This balance between
noble silence and discussion.
So actually in our uh pre-treats are
kind of formulated in a way. So the
participants have to write a report
about their retreat sorry their practice
and what they what they experience and
what are their difficulties any
obstacles. So they are writing a short
report about their own experience and
then someone is presenting it in in
general. So we don't uh in uh you know
if if really necessary they can the
particular practitioner come and meet
the teacher but in general what we do is
we do a open discussion in the sense
that the these reports are being
presented to the audience and then the
monk the whoever the teacher giving some
advice based on that uh whatever the
report submitted. So if he has explained
certain his experiences okay then the
monk can understand okay what is the
status whether you are able to uh look
at the meditative object the primary
object properly and you are able to
maintain that consistently and so
likewise uh that open discussion in one
sense help us to uh say get the advice
from the monk that is one thing the
other thing is uh there may be others
who have the same question. Sometimes we
are we are going through the same kind
of a area of our practice but we are
unable to express it properly but
another person has really beautifully
very directly openly has expressed that
then the other person who are who is
unable to express it get the benefit.
Okay. among the teacher has taken that
report and he's explaining what to do
next and what is your uh say weakness or
what is your strength. So likewise
there's a kind of a discussion going on
and that is also connected with certain
sutras and it's not just a kind of arbit
type of explanation but taken certain
sutras and giving the explanation. So
the participants get the encouragement
okay these people are practicing so
these experiences are not
own imaginary status but rather have
practiced and then they have presented
it and this is what the outcome. So
likewise this open discussion is what we
encourage at.
So in one sense you get the answer to
your problem the other sense that you
get an inspiration by the other
practitioners. Okay. Not only me they
also have these kind of issues. Not only
me they also have come to the good level
or they also have touched certain
aspects of the dharma. So likewise this
is what we encourage during the
discussion time and what we call as a
Q&A session every every retreat we have
Q&A session every day actually.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. And is that's very interesting and
are those written reports is that every
day or is that once or twice during a
retreat or
>> every day it is available. Now if we if
it is a five-day retreat there are five
Q&A sessions at it's actually just after
the lunch break. So we have that Q&A
session. So someone is presenting it the
teacher is answering the questions and
if basically if I am handling I
sometimes ask the participants to come
forward and if they have any further
clar needs further clarification they
can ask and if I have a certain doubt
and I want to get some further idea of
what was what was his history about his
practice then I ask that person to come
forward and explain about little bit
about further uh his history about his
practice. So it's a kind of a uh open
discussion.
>> We appreciate you taking Damasaka time
with us as well uh today and we'll move
over to the YouTube comments in a second
but um did want to ask um whenever you
sort of recite Paulie just so
beautifully. I can see I feel like I can
see Ajin Kovilo's get goosebumps. He
really loves Paulie.
>> Love it. And um [laughter] so as someone
who's immersed yourself in that language
and so much of Sinhila is interwoven
with poly or coming from poly um just
what's you know what do you feel is the
use of learning that language
particularly and do you have a favorite
few polyphrases or or like hidden you
know phrases you find in the sutas that
you feel are very dharmically infused
that you wish more people knew these
these polyphrases. [snorts]
Yeah, actually Pali language was a
really beautiful language and uh I
haven't done a you know uh in-depth
learning of Pali but uh I what is
necessary for the time being and uh
because of my interest sometimes these
verses and certain uh passages or
certain sentences naturally um I I I can
memorize them. It is not that I am doing
some hard work to memorize it but
naturally since I like it really and
really kind of that Buddha is talking to
me. Uh so naturally I was able to
remember them and so I am using them
during the dharma sermons also and uh
typically dharma sermons are connected
with certain sutras.
So if you consider our retreat it is
assign designed like it is uh we are we
are based on a particular sutra taken it
as a theme of the uh theme of the
retreat and taking from different other
sutras as well to support what I am
trying to present and then certain pi
phrases are being used during that
sermon. So then people will understand
okay it is not my own creation because
thing is we as monks we don't need to
deviate the Buddha's teaching or give a
wrong interpretation but I'm trying to
give the the direct teaching of the
Buddha taken from the pali cannon even
telling that pali phrase and then giving
the explanation maybe in singala or in
English. So then people if they have
doubt they can go to the source and look
at it. So if in case they they give they
thought okay I have given a wrong
interpretation now free apps are
available internet is available books
are available they can easily go and
refer the sutra and then they can they
can get their own explanation they can
they can read further so therefore
giving fi phrases during the s during
the dharma sermons dhhammer teachings is
a quite common practice in Sri Lanka at
least in nisan so at least I am doing it
because I really like to emphasize the
Buddha's teaching and give the credit to
him and it is not my my in invention
Buddha has taught like this okay this is
the parif phrase okay I'm trying to
explain it and this is what I understood
so therefore certain parif phrases as
you said known to me many many parrases
not just one many polyphrases are very
interesting now I just to just to share
with you now since you touched the the
the topic of proliferation. So there's a
very beautiful sutra called badaka sutra
whereable
is highlighting how one can have a
peaceful death. M. So there he has added
very beautiful two verses at the end of
the
one who is able to abandon the
conceptual proliferation
and he is more inclined towards the
nippa who is more inclined towards the
calmness the stillness of the mind and
he is actually inviting the nibbana he
is very much like attaining the nibbana
which is the complete freedom from all
different kinds of bondages. So likewise
the the pi phrases are very beautiful as
well as very concise and giving us a
very beautiful dharma that Buddha has
taught.
Monte I forget which book of yours it is
but you talk about how language is a sya
language is perception on one level and
you talk about how of course perception
is not self and I'm curious there is
this relationship between
language perception and proliferation
>> and for myself I can speak Thai and can
read poly well enough and I I think I
proliferate differently in different
languages. I mean, certainly Thai is my,
you know, you could call it a second
language. Um, it's nowhere near as good
as your English, but I'm curious if you
proliferate differently in English
versus Sinhala. Pali is just so good at
like cutting off proliferation that it's
it's harder to proliferate in Pali. But
um yeah, what do what do you think about
that?
Yeah, actually Buddha mentioned in sutra
that when when sya is taken to a kind of
a level so the sa ultimately manifest as
a way of communication. So once you
recognize something you want to tell it
to another person you need to
communicate your experience to another
person. So uh so as a result of that in
Neda suta Buddha mentioned okay the one
outcome of uh sya the recognition these
different kinds of signs perceptions is
that how we are trying to communicate
how we are trying to express you what
what you have experienced. So in order
to express we need words we need
we need grammar we need languages. So
then only we can properly express what
we have experienced. So that is how we
are actually uh
get into uh these different languages.
But the problem is we know that what we
recognize what we experience could be
distorted
that sya vipalasa playing a kind of a
role. So even though we are experiencing
something it might not be the reality
that we are facing. Our experience might
be a distorted experience. My my
judgments my different kinds of uh uh
preconceived ideas my upbringing all
that has a great influence to my
experience. So after I experience that
kind of a distorted scenario that is
what I am trying to express then my
expression also may be distorted.
So that's why very calm, very quiet,
very silent kind of experience is we can
say at least to some extent close closer
to the reality than than a probably than
a more thinking related, judgment
related uh say argument related
experience. Assume that you are able to
calm down your mind, relax your mind,
pay attention only to the phenomena and
you are not making any judgment. You're
not adding your own likes and dislikes.
Then you can say okay I'm just going
through a mere experience a pure
experience kind of a thing.
Yeah. Just just see and you're not
adding your own stuff. You're not
distorting your experience.
I loved uh you're referencing nasuta. I
think it has one of my favorite
teachings. That's uh a person's resolves
on sensuality is called sensuality. The
beautiful things remain as they are in
the world and the wise are unmoved. I
just love that. Um
>> Bonte, we have a question from the chat.
Um sort of uh unrelated but fascinating.
Someone wants to know what the Buddha's
advice was to lay people who had to deal
with politics or how people should deal
with politics.
[laughter]
Just to give you a softball.
So entirely different question.
[laughter]
Uh
I mean they they need a kind of a
political system for better governance.
I mean it's they their freedom to find
the correct people and toward the
correct people and then have the correct
policies as their governing factor and
then they can be benefited from that uh
proper politics.
So when when politicians are with some
uh wrong motives, some ulterior motives
and that is where things go wrong but uh
the politics as per say I don't think
there's an issue but it is for the
betterment of the society and to treat
uh you know to service the people and
then then it's in the good hand. If
things are coming to a good people and
they are doing it honestly then
definitely it's a something something
for the betterment of the society.
>> What would you say to some uh you know
people many in the modern era who aren't
directly involved in you know being in
the political system but are just
watching a political situation that they
find very disturbing a lot of anger
fear. How do you advise a practitioner
to interact with that whole realm to
keep their heart centered and bright?
>> So one thing I feel is things can
change. So we don't need to think okay
uh so every time this is like this or we
are so unfortunate and this is this is
something not going to change. So that
is that's kind of a depressive way of
looking at it but we can look at it more
positive way and uh next time you can
vote for a better person. So since you
are a since you are a lay person so this
question is asking so you have an
opportunity to vote for a good person
and it's your responsibility to find out
an honest person a capable person who
has a real interest to serve the country
or serve the nation or whatever and then
you can vote for that person rather than
uh uh keep on complaining because our
our nature in the mind is to complain.
Okay, we we are not never happy about
the things ongoing thing but we always
find fault and something to be unhappy.
So every time things are in in in
relative terms okay your your country
may be doing well your your current
government may be doing well but other
tend
humans have so are we really under the
influence of that inner trade or really
that's a vast majority has found this is
an issue
then they can vote for a better or news
that because majority of the people have
understood okay this
wrong and this is not correct and we
change it then we can go different
bante there's a a phrase uh which is
called nonover overlapping magisteria
and it refers to some people's ideas
about science and religion that science
and religion are each their own domain
and that they don't overlap. And I'm
curious about the realm of overlap or
non-overlap between politics and
Buddhism, specifically monastic
Buddhism. So in Thailand, monks can't
even vote, much less, you know, be on
the Supreme Court or serve in parliament
or anything. Whereas, as I understand
it, at least at some point, you know,
the monk, there are monks who are in
parliament or something in in Sri Lanka.
Um and those are two very different
views of the relationship between the SA
or Biku and politics. Could you just
maybe talk about what what it is in in
Sri Lanka and if you're able to share
your view about how well or poorly that
works. Yeah, that would be that would be
interesting.
>> Yeah. Now let me quote Maramo here. So
he basically has given a very uh
specific uh monastic conduct to us. He
is asking okay monks you should never go
even to the uh court cost court system
you know you you should never file even
a court case and whatever internal
conflicts you have to sort it out within
yourself. Don't ever go to the you know
the typical judiciary system. So then
you are into more mundane way of
handling things. So therefore Nana
Ramato in his particular monastic code
of contact conduct. So he advised the
monks who are in yoga sansa to avoid any
kind of judicial
involvement as per say. So therefore uh
going into politics is completely out of
scope when when Hanaramo is concerned.
So he don't expect the monastic
monastics to get into politics or any
any because even judicial system is
something that he don't want to get
involved then then you can understand
okay he is not at all encouraging any
kind of political involvement but
unfortunately things have changed to the
other uh sects and monks were in the
parliament but in the present uh
parliament there are no monks as far as
I know so things are going in a proper
way it seems and monks also have
understood okay we have to uh spend some
time what Buddha has mentioned and we
shouldn't deviate from the teaching of
the Buddha so they they can actually
play the role of an advisor to the
politician if they are coming and asking
some advice and they want to get the
blessing of the monks during that time
they can say okay what is really
necessary and what is the direction that
the government has to move like that
they can give a certain advice
rather than they themselves become a
politician. So that is my view actually.
>> Thank you
mate. We might have to wrap up in just a
second, but I wanted just to ask one
more question that we might end on. Um,
which was, do you have one story to
share with us of a teacher? Um, you
don't have to name the teacher, but just
a particularly inspiring act from a
teacher or something you witnessed um,
of humility or kindness, just some some
kind of story that you have of a
monastic you look up to um, displaying
some really beautiful spiritual quality.
um to leave us with if anything pops
into mind. Sometimes it's hard to come
up with on the spot but I'm curious if
anything does pop up.
>> Yeah. Uh actually with bantamajiv I had
many interesting uh say different kinds
of uh uh say stories. So let me share
one uh
because bandit damage is a really
interesting character. He has a very
good uh uh
uh way of handling things and he
instruct the monks in a sometimes direct
way, sometimes even harsh way, sometimes
in a more uh uh say uh fun way. So I
I'll share an interesting incident. So
at one time I was conducting a retreat
uh and you know we were spending some
time more time at the forest and then go
to the uh city to conduct a retreat
because I conduct retreats at Kalodi
Pasaation Center in Kalu. So why when I
went there so one girl was reading the
questions you know that reports she was
reading that she's really beautiful
>> and you you can imagine a monk spending
most of the time at the forest and then
go and participate in a retreat and now
you have to look at the girl
[laughter]
look at a girl and it has happened about
I mean during my 10th So something like
that. So I am also not that matured at
that time. So this this was the
beginning of my uh my career as a
teacher and then she was using very you
know certain accent in English because
sometimes when you are using a different
accent very difficult to understand it.
You have to very sharply look at her in
order to understand what she's talking.
In one sense I have to safeguard myself.
Okay. not to not to distract myself, not
to allow the mind to go with some wrong
thoughts, wrong lustful thoughts or any
kind of attachments or any you know any
distractions. I have to maintain a very
quiet very natural uh uh way of getting
the question from her and that's was a
really challenge and on the way back I
told that to bama bant this has happened
so you see that I came all the way from
the monastery and I have to spend whole
one hour look at this girl during the
Q&A session she is the one talking that
question so see what has happened and
then Panta said she is the one given you
the kamata. She's the one given you the
meditation instruction today. So you
[laughter]
because sometimes we think okay
anapanati is the kamat so the medation
is the kamatana but these kind of real
life situations sometimes give you
really interesting kamat. Okay. Can you
really [laughter]
really maintain the monastic rules? Can
you really maintain the mindfulness
>> or without any distraction? So, it's a
really interesting point that he
highlighted and really I respect how he
handled that my situation.
>> I love that I like
>> thinking about the challenges we
encounter as kamatana. That's a good
one. I I really [laughter] like that.
>> Well, Bonte, thank you so much for
joining us. We'll um jump over to Zoom
and I'm going to post the link into the
chat for anyone who wishes to join us
there. Uh Bonte should be with us and we
really wish you all the best. It was uh
an honor that you joined us. Um we're
glad to be able to have celebrated your
teacher as well and um we hope you come
and visit us in Seattle in not too long.
>> Oh, very good. Yeah, I heard that from
you and nice to see you and we'll meet
you again at another time.
>> Okay.
>> Thank you very much for the opportunity.
Thank you.
>> Yeah.