He Missed the NBA and Built a Music Empire | Harvey Mason Jr., Grammy CEO

 My dad believed that I was going to be an NBA player.
 I believed that I was going to be an NBA player from abrupt ending.
 Jumping for a shot and landing on my knee, awkwardly, and tearing my sail.
 In my depression, in my time of uncertainty,
 the thing that I was very fortunate to have was music.
 CEO of the Recording Academy
 Produced for music legends from Aretha Franklin to Michael Jackson.
 Mr. Harvey Mason Jr.
 He's a special guy.
 He has the ability to just make a difference in anyone's life.
 Press play on that much.
 No.
 Hello there.
 Wow.
 It's not something you expect to see from somebody who means so much to you, you know.
 What is the job of the CEO of the Recording Academy?
 Oh, man, David, how long do we have to talk about that?
 It's the reason for existing is to support and uplift music people all around the world.
 When I produce artists, it doesn't matter if it's a re-thorfe, it's a new 15-year-old artist.
 I'm thinking, how do I get the best out of that artist?
 The truth is...
 When you're in the moment of somebody believing in you,
 sometimes it doesn't feel like belief.
 Yes.
 I did and do.
 Somebody's pushing you.
 Someone's asking you to be better.
 You can consider that the ultimate sign of belief.
 And we'll believe in you.
 Aretha Mason Jr.
 Ladies and gentlemen, how are you, man?
 Welcome to the person who believed in me on David Begno.
 Harvey Mason Jr.
 He played in the final four and was headed to the NBA
 until a torn ACL into his career and left him driving around Tucson,
 pitching jingles to local businesses.
 He kept making music anyway.
 Then one influential man bought his song,
 put him in a room with a retha Franklin,
 and he changed everything.
 Please welcome to the show, the CEO of the Recording Academy, Harvey Mason Jr.
 Hey, David, good to be here.
 Great to have you.
 So I want to start with the room that that man put you in.
 But let's tell everybody who truly the man is.
 Well, the man is Mr. Clive Davis,
 one of the most influential and important music people.
 I think in the industry today, still going strong.
 I believe about the turn 95.
 I was at his 90th birthday, so it's gone by quick.
 He's got the ears of gold.
 He's got the relationships with all the artists.
 And he has the ability to just make a difference in anyone's life.
 Well, that's an artist, a songwriter, producer, engineer.
 And he had such a massive impact on mine.
 I know we're going to talk about that, but he's a special guy.
 So special that, and I love this.
 When we reached out, I always love trying to find things that will be different.
 When we reached out to his team, I said,
 hey, would you do me a favor?
 Would Clive be willing to make a little video?
 And he did.
 Press play on that much.
 No.
 Hello there.
 I'm very grateful that you chose me as the person that believed in you.
 And the truth is, I did and do and will believe in you.
 And from the time we worked together, when you were producing my divas,
 you worked with the Reefly.
 You worked with Daniel.
 You worked with Whitney.
 You worked with Jennifer.
 And you brought out that unique quality that each has,
 that makes him one of the great singers of all time.
 You did it with just enormous sensitivity and creative talent.
 And now, as head of the Recording Academy with great sensitivity in a very tough job,
 you are really informing and keeping happy the membership as well as achieving your goal.
 So I congratulate you and I really wish you the best on this beautiful occasion.
 Wow.
 It's pretty amazing.
 It's not something you expect to see from somebody who means so much to you.
 What does the video evoke and bring back?
 It brings back a lot of memories when I first was exposed to Clive and got the opportunity to meet him.
 And it actually brings back a lot of uncertainty and fear that I was experiencing when I first met him.
 You know, you're a young guy and trying to make your way in the music industry
 and to have somebody that you hold with such reverence and so much respect
 and then to get to know him over the years and work with him over the years
 and have learned so much from him and then to see him speaking about you like that.
 Really, it brings back a lot of emotions for me.
 How did you meet him?
 Randomly, we were writing songs on a partner and myself, another co-writer.
 And we had a song that we had done that was really the first song we had written together.
 And the guy that was working and said, hey, let's go take a meeting with Clive and he'll love this song.
 We went and luckily got a meeting with him and he liked the song and wanted to be in business with us.
 And that was really kind of the first time I started doing business with Clive.
 And the weird story, Clive had signed my father as an artist back in the 70s.
 Harvey Mason, senior, a legendary drummer, the original Harvey Mason.
 And Clive signed him to an artist deal when he was running Ares to Records.
 And my dad was a session musician. He was a drummer playing for other people's records, playing on tours.
 And Clive saw my dad in a session and said, do you want to be an artist?
 And my dad said, I'm a drummer, man.
 I'm trying to sing. And he said, I think you should make a record.
 And he convinced my dad to make a record. And so Clive also believed in my father.
 Clive took meetings at the Beverly Hills Hotel often.
 He would have a bungalow as it was described to me. Is that where your meeting happened?
 I was. Everybody's meeting happened at the bungalow. I mean, that's where it all went down.
 You tell it years later now, sort of in a simplified way.
 But take me back to the day. You're how old the day you go to, roughly, when you go to meet with him.
 I'm probably 32, 33 somewhere in that 35 maybe.
 Nervous?
 Of course. Again, someone I'd looked up to, someone that had the respect of the entire industry,
 and who had worked with every big artist that I always dreamed of working with.
 All the, as he said, the divas and all the artists that were the singers that I admired most,
 and that I aspired to meet let alone work with.
 Put me in the room. You walk in?
 I walk in and I'm blown away by, first of all, I met the Beverly Hills Hotel, which I'd never been to.
 And in a bungalow, I didn't even know what a bungalow was.
 It's like a hotel room, but it's a house.
 And there's probably 20 of them there, 15 of them at the property.
 But Clive always stayed in the one. So I walk into the room. He's there.
 He gets up and greets me. And I'm still blown away by the environment I'm in.
 I'm around all this exquisite landscaping furniture. There's flowers in his room.
 There's a table full of snacks. And there's big speakers in a stereo system.
 And he's, you know, just make some small talk. And he says, play me, play me some music.
 And I start playing a music. And you know, at that moment, it's a make or break time.
 Because somebody like Clive, as I said at the beginning, can make a decision to put you in the game or keep working, kid.
 What was his first reaction?
 He loved the record. He closed his eyes, started nodding his head, started smiling,
 happiness, big Clive Davis fingers.
 And you know, you have to have a lyrics, by the way.
 One of the things about Clive is you don't play a music. You give him lyrics.
 So he's reading the lyrics, but when you see him close his eyes and start doing this, you know, he likes the record.
 His first reaction was he loved the song.
 What was the song?
 The song was a song that ultimately came out on Tyrese.
 I like them girls is what it was called, which sounds funny me saying this right now.
 That was the record. That was the record.
 And that was my introduction to working with Clive.
 And we've had what a 30 something year relationship from that first meeting in the bungalow.
 When Clive Davis says yes, does life sort of at that moment change?
 Like is it before Clive says yes, and then after? Is it that transformative?
 It was for me. I don't know if it's that way for everyone.
 But for me when Clive said yes, it gave me a bit of confidence boost because this was the man with the ears and the person who was the hitmaker.
 And so when he said, oh, I love that song. I think that song will be great with this person or with that person.
 You feel like, okay, I'm doing something right. I'm on the right path.
 I might not have completely arrived, but at least I've got the attention of somebody who knows what it is.
 He put you in the studio with a Rita Franklin.
 Not immediately, but over time I earned that right to be with some of his other artists.
 Tyrese was a younger artist, a newer artist at the time.
 And then we evolved from that to producing a lot of the American Idol winners because at that time he just started working with American Idol.
 So Kelly Clarkson, Ruben Stutter, Fantasia, all those records and then graduated to some of the legends that were also on the roster.
 So you get in with a Rita. What was that for?
 She was doing an album and needed songs and needed material and Clive again trusted me to go work with her.
 And I ended up producing one or two songs. It's a crazy story, David.
 I mean, we probably don't even want to go into all the details of it.
 But when I produce artists, I'm not thinking about how excited I am to be there or how amazing those singers are or what a turning point.
 This is a micro. I'm honestly just approaching it as a professional and as a peer of the person on the other side of the glass.
 And I'm looking at them thinking, how do I get the best vocal out of that artist?
 Doesn't matter if it's a retho or if it's a new 15 year old artist, I'm thinking, how do I get the best out of that artist?
 As a producer, that's my job. You sound like a coach.
 I am. We could talk about that. But yes, that's my job. And so when I meet a retha, I'm pushing her.
 I'm doing it in a nice way and each different artist needs a different treatment. Some need a hug, some need a pad on the back. Some need you to get aggressive.
 Some need you to challenge them. A retha was somebody that was a mixture of all those things, but we had some contentious back and forth.
 But ultimately, she finished singing the first song. Back in those days, we made CDs and I flew back to LA from Detroit.
 Did a mix of the CD and sent it to a retha. And when she got it, she was furious. She said, well, Harvey pushed me too hard.
 And I haven't even listened to the CD because it's cracked. And I think Harvey's not going to be the right producer for me.
 Sent a letter to Clive. And then she listened to the CD I sent her another one. She heard the song.
 And the next day, she sent me a bouquet of flowers. And I still keep a picture of me and a retha around these flowers. And she said, that's one of my favorite vocals I've ever recorded.
 And so yes, I'm glad that it worked, but it started with Clive believing that I could get what needed to come out of a retha vocally.
 And since that moment, we did, I don't know, how many records after that. So that was the first one that went on for years and years. And I recorded her up until her last recording as well.
 Tell me about some of the interactions you all had. Like, do a deep dive on that. I mean, I think anybody watching would be faster with a retha.
 Yeah, well, she's a legend. She has her way of working. She has the things that she believes in. And me as a producer, as I said, my job is to get the best.
 And sometimes artists are not thinking about the best of thinking about getting home to their family or what are they going to eat for dinner.
 And so I spent a lot of time challenging her and saying, well, retha, why don't you try this? You know, she's mature. She's an adult. She's been doing this for a long time. I'm young 30 something, getting a kid in her mind.
 So you have to pick your words wisely, but you're saying, well, retha, why don't we try singing it like this? And she's saying, Harvey, no, that's not how I want to sing it. That's not how I sing it.
 And I said, okay, well, we've done yours. Why don't we try this? And I'd do different tactics to try and get her to do different things.
 So the interaction was respectful always, but very, very challenging. Both directions. And at the end of the day, I like to think that we had an incredibly trusting and honest relationship because I was able to push her maybe beyond where she was comfortable. And she was able to bring out good work in me as well.
 Can you remember a time you felt like you had a breakthrough with her where you thought, okay, now now I know the right way to get the best out of her.
 It was right after that first song because there was a trust established and that felt like a breakthrough because it didn't matter what she heard or what she thought she heard until she understood that I had no agenda other than to make her great.
 A lot of producers maybe are trying to build their brand, their reputation or bring attention to them. My whole goal in producing music was to try and serve the artist and then ultimately serve the listeners.
 We take it for granted that everybody watching will understand what producing means, but those who haven't worked in the business, myself included, what is the job of a producer in the studio with Aretha?
 So as a producer, your job is to start from nothing and end up with the finished product. You're overseeing the budget, the musicians, the songwriting in many instances, the recording process, working with the artist, getting them deliver performance, mixing the song, delivering it back to the label all within budget.
 So you're touching kind of, it's like the director of a film.
 Other artists you did that with come to mind where you had some of these like example moments that stand out.
 Every artist that I ever worked with, there's a moment where you slip into the sweet spot with them.
 Give me some story. Whitney Houston, same thing. I recorded with Whitney over many, many years again through Clive and that relationship.
 She's had the similar disposition. She's approached, she'd been doing this for a long time before me. She was going to be great with me or without me.
 But I like to think we made real progress in the time of her career where she was trying to discover who she was, what did she sound like, how did she use her instrument differently than she had in the past.
 And we made some great recordings together, but there was a moment where she was not going to sing a song more than one or two times. She came into the booths at Harvard, you've got me for 15 minutes, I'm going to sing the song once, and then I'm going back to my house.
 And she sang the song once, and then I said, that was so incredible. Whitney, I can't believe how great that was. What a pleasure to listen to that.
 Can you do me one favor? We're missing one little section. Can you just sing it one more time?
 She said, no, I told Jim singing it once and I'm going back and I said, yeah, but this could be a little bit better. I know it could be better. Just give me one more pass.
 She said, okay, I'll give you half a pass. I'll sing to the first chorus that I'm stopping. Then we got to that chorus. I said, Whitney, that's amazing, but I think you can do the second verse better.
 She said, Harvey, you're negotiating with me. I told you I'm not doing that. Ultimately, it's a long story of back and forth. But where we got to was, I told her I said, Whitney, my only job is to make the fans listen to this song and say, oh my gosh, that's the best Whitney Houston song I've ever heard.
 Do you hear how Whitney's voice sounds? That's what I want for you out of this song. Somehow she believed me and she took me at my word and she worked with me. We ended up recording that song for seven hours instead of 15 minutes that she gave me.
 To me, that was a real breakthrough. We found a rapport and built a relationship that extended also to the end of her life. We recorded her last vocal a day before she passed away. I was honored to have been the person that was trusted to record with her for a long time.
 What was the song that lasted seven hours? I don't remember the title of the song to be honest, but it was further record that we were working on. We did a bunch of songs with her. I don't even remember what it was called, but she did not want to sing for more than a few passes in general.
 There was a time in her career where she was not in great voice and she was finding her voice. In this particular session, she sounded incredible. I'm always pleased to look back at some of those sessions that we established a real bond and a relationship and a lot of trust.
 What made you a great producer? Please don't take that as something that you have to say, oh, I don't want to put myself up. I'm not trying to do this. I'm trying to help people understand that when you talk about success,
 it's important that we be able to understand what makes us so successful. What made you someone who Clive felt he could put in front of Arita and Whitney? Right? He wouldn't have put anybody, but the folks he thought was the best. What made you so good?
 Well, assuming we take for granted or take as truth what you said that I was good or it was great, I will say it was the ability for me to listen, first of all, to what other people's opinions were, what they were trying to accomplish, what they had been through in their lives, what they wanted to express in a song, and synthesize all that into what comes out of the speakers.
 And do that in a respectful way, but do it in a way that accomplish the results that I as a producer wanted in Clive or any other label executive was trying to accomplish with their artists.
 And so the ability to listen, but the ability to push in a gentle, gentle way and get results, I think, made a difference. And also my ability to see maybe not more, but see beyond what the artists thought they were going to accomplish with that particular song.
 And my role as a producer, maybe what also makes me different is purely of service. And I think that's been a common theme throughout my life. I want to serve the artists. I want to serve their music. I want to serve their fans. It's not about me and what I'm trying to do as a producer. It's about them.
 Okay, but let me say this. I just met you before this interview. I believe what you just said, not because I know it, but just because of what I pick up. I get the sense that you're emotionally balanced. Would you say that you are?
 I'd like to think I am. Maybe you'd ask my wife, but I think I'm emotionally balanced.
 I say that only because what you describe you were able to do with big artists to me would also be a reason why someone would see you as good for the job of the head of the recording Academy.
 Yeah, and it's understanding where different people are coming from. Correct. Emotionally, mentally, correct.
 What their experiences are and how to try and relate to that. Because as a songwriter or a producer, again, in service to the artist, that's my job. How do I get inside your head? How do I understand you empathize sympathize with you and figure out how to translate that into a song?
 Well, and something that comes to mind right now is what happened with the weekend, right? And I didn't follow every nook and cranny, but and for the audience who doesn't know, the weekend was protesting the Grammys, right? And can you remind us why?
 He'd felt like there was some unfair treatment and he hadn't been nominated appropriately for some records that he'd released a few years ago that were huge records and incredibly successful, which everyone loved and he didn't receive the Grammys that he thought he deserved.
 And I remember watching you at the Grammys, let's say a year or two after that, where you came out and you like made a point to address what I think wouldn't have been addressed so publicly in the past or would have happened behind closed doors. What did you say?
 I said, we hear you and we're trying to be better. And as an organization, there was things we needed to change and we've made a lot of changes. And that was kind of my role as the CEO of the Recording Academy was to come in and evaluate what was happening.
 Because I've been a member. That's the difference between me and other CEOs. I'm a member of the Recording Academy. I've been a Grammy voter for 15 years.
 But things needed to evolve and things needed to change. We've done a lot of great things as an organization. But the weekend touched on a few things that hadn't been addressed. And I was in my second or third year in the role.
 So I spoke publicly about the need for our organization to continue to evolve. And I showcased some of the changes we made to the membership, to the voting, to the processes that took place.
 And he was, I guess, appreciative to the point where he wanted to come back and perform with us. And I'm very thankful that he did.
 I remember the temperament with which you delivered those remarks that I thought were right for meeting the moment. That's just an opinion.
 Does the temperament come from just being who you are or was it in some ways learned behavior?
 Some of it's probably inherent just to my personality and my upbringing with my parents. But I definitely had people that I've learned a lot from, especially as leaders and people that have to manage people or manage maybe egos or people with talent extraordinary people all my life.
 I've been around people that have done that and shown me the path.
 Southern California is where you were born and raised. You played basketball. And we're really flipping good. Got recruited to go and play in Arizona.
 You were recruited. How many offers did you have before college? How many people wanted you?
 About 70, 70. Why Arizona?
 Something about the coach that I fell in love with Coach Lut Olsen was really special. He also comes into your living room and the moms love that.
 You take a visit and the coaches come to your house and they maybe watch your practice and they come in and they sit and talk to the family.
 And Coach Olsen was a magician in the living room and my mom and my dad were like, oh my gosh, we love Coach Olsen. And I also love Coach Olsen.
 But you also have to remember the time it was before every basketball game in the world was on TV.
 And we were trying to figure out how am I going to get to the NBA. My dad believed that I was going to be an NBA player.
 I believe that I was going to be an NBA player. So TV games were very important. How many games does Arizona have on national TV so that the scouts can see you so people can understand your great player.
 I think they had four games on national TV that year that I was being recruited. And so to us, I was like, hey, this is a big platform. This is a great school with a great coach. So that's how we chose Arizona.
 I love this picture of you and him, not from the college days, but you agree to go to Arizona. And is it true that he kept coming to your games?
 All through my senior year in high school because I signed early as a junior. Through my senior year after I'd already committed, I'd signed the documents. He kept coming to Arizona to Los Angeles.
 Maybe it was fun for him to come to see my games. Maybe he was doing it just to show support. Maybe he enjoyed learning more about who I was as a player so we could start thinking about how to utilize me in the system.
 He's probably also in LA recruiting other kids and just came to make sure that I knew he cared.
 What was one of the first life lessons you remember absorbing from him?
 It really depends on when you look at the progression of his involvement in my life. Because when I first got there, I got to be honest, David.
 I was 18 years old. I'd been, you know, high school, all everything, led the state and scoring all every award you could get.
 And when I got to Arizona, part of that early process was a breaking down of the ego for me, breaking down of the ego for all the recruits because we're all coming in highly recruited.
 And so I first, I didn't think particularly highly of Coach Olson and I was frustrated and I thought that maybe I made a mistake in choosing Arizona.
 So one of the first lessons I learned was like, it wasn't a lesson, but why is he treating me this way? Why is he being so hard on me?
 Why is he challenging me and pushing me and yelling at me and putting me in places where I'm uncomfortable on the basketball court?
 So I don't think it was until you're a star in California, you come to Arizona and you are a star on the bench.
 Yeah, I don't do really really well as an athlete in the first couple of years, really any of the years at Arizona, but I learned so much and I guess we can talk more about that.
 But for me, it was, you know, it was really a journey to understanding what Coach Olson meant to me.
 And I've over time come to understand that.
 What's the understanding?
 If I can, I'll start with my father because my father, when you think about someone who believed in me, there's nobody that had a stronger belief in me than my father.
 It was a fierce, relentless belief that I was amazing and could do anything that I wanted and he instilled that in me.
 And I'm so appreciative that I had a support system like that and somebody who just would run up and down the aisles of the basketball stadium saying, my son is incredible.
 Or he would stand up in any coaches office and say, my son is the best. Or he also, by the way, would go to people and say, Hey, my son's a songwriter.
 You need to work with him. He's incredible. He's talented. And he used to tell me all the time, however, you can do anything you want to do.
 Decide what you love and work really hard at it. And that was his philosophy, but he told me I could do anything. He said, do you want to be in politics?
 Do you want to be a doctor?
 So to have that unwavering belief was where I was starting from. So when I got to Arizona, I didn't have that.
 I had coach Olson telling me, well, you're not performing up to my standards. You're not performing to my expectations.
 And I took that as a lack of belief or a lack of trust in what I could do. And obviously I lost some confidence.
 But what I'd come to find, and this is really over a period of 20 years in my life, it's almost been a metamorphosis or a complete reimagining of what belief means.
 And what Lou Olson's style of belief was, he knew I was great. He knew I was better than I thought I was.
 And he was going to push me and challenge me. He wasn't just going to prop me up and say, however you're the best, you can do anything you want.
 He said, I'm going to bring you in. I'm going to put you amongst all these incredible athletes that I also believe in, by the way. And I'm going to challenge you.
 And that's the one thing I learned from coach Olson right away was his bar of expectation, his bar of excellence was higher than mine was.
 Do you remember a moment over the four years of college that you then changed and felt, okay, I think he does believe in.
 No, it didn't happen. It didn't happen. No.
 I played better or I tried to get better and I tried to improve as I get back to coach Olson. I'm going to show him he doesn't believe in me.
 I use it as motivation because he doesn't believe in me and I'm going to put it in his face. I'm going to get better.
 I'm going to be faster stronger. I'm going to shoot better and I practice and I worked.
 But it was not because, oh, he believes in me so much. It was because he does not believe in me.
 It wasn't until much later that I changed and said, you know what, all that was done with purpose.
 He's a great leader and he really believed in me and he cared about me.
 You remember this stud picture?
 I don't know about stud picture, those shorts and those skinny legs. I don't know. I wouldn't say stud.
 This is me. I think it's my junior year in the NCAA tournament.
 It's my sophomore year in the NCAA tournament we're playing against Cornell. We beat him by 50 by the way I think.
 And you're seeing me dribbling past one of the much slower, much less athletic guards from Cornell.
 But also you see in the background one of my lifelong friends Matt Mulebach who's an attorney and a broadcaster.
 I'm seeing this weekend at the final four. So this is a great picture and also you see in the background the NCAA banner.
 This is one of my lifetime memories we're playing in the tournament we ended up going to the final four this year.
 So great picture, great memory.
 You wrote a recent article for the athletic about playing with Steve Kerr.
 And you write in that article, I thought I had worked hard my whole life. I thought I was ready.
 But Steve made me realize there was another level to greatness.
 And you go on to describe a trip where y'all are on a bus and you're going to a game.
 And everybody sleeps right which seems maybe not everybody but me and a couple.
 But it seems reasonable right? You're in between games.
 Yeah.
 And you get there. And Steve says what to you guys?
 I remember it very, very clearly. I can see exactly the huddle I can see where I was standing.
 Steve was the type of leader. He wasn't a Yeller and a Screamer.
 But he would, it's real talk when he, when he speaks and he said,
 how can you be sleeping on the way to the game?
 Y'all should be thinking about the game.
 You should be planning, you know, thinking about the game plan studying the scouting report.
 He said, basically, we're not going to be the team we want to be if you are not focused on the game instead of sleeping in so many words.
 You went on to write it doesn't matter how talented you are. It matters how hard you work to maximize that talent.
 So the basketball career ends with a tornado CL, right?
 Yeah, sadly.
 So the basketball dreams end. You're in Tucson.
 A abrupt ending of breath after years of practicing and waking up, working out and dribbling home from school and all the sacrifice.
 It ends jumping for a shot and landing on my knee awkwardly and tearing my seal.
 And when that happens, what's the emotion?
 Pure depression.
 That lasted how long?
 A year.
 Would not be able to even barely move.
 And I was watching soap operas on TV trying to figure out my life.
 And I'd been pointing towards a career in basketball my whole life.
 Again, whatever level that might have been at.
 And it ended so abruptly that I wasn't prepared for the next chapter of my life.
 And I hadn't even thought about the next chapter.
 The thing that I was very fortunate to have was music.
 And in my depression, in my time of uncertainty and not knowing what was going to happen in my life,
 I was able to sit at a little keyboard that I had in my dorm room and make music.
 And that was my outlet.
 And that music was the only thing that I had that I understood that made me feel okay,
 even as depressed as I was that I couldn't play basketball anymore.
 So I made music and I would write songs.
 And that was ultimately what kind of changed the course of my life was having that keyboard being in a depressed state.
 And next, I'm making music.
 You're driving around Tucson trying to sell jingles.
 That's after I came out of the depression and I was writing songs in my room,
 my girlfriend at the time ended up being my first wife said,
 I'm working at this ad agency. They need music for a company.
 Why don't you take what you're doing out of despair and turn it into a jingle about a break store.
 And so I wrote a jingle.
 They paid me I think 700 bucks for it.
 And I was like, oh my gosh, this is great.
 Maybe there's a future here for me.
 So yes, that led me to driving around Tucson in my car,
 going to burger stores, going to Chinese buffets, going to gyms, saying, hey,
 if you're going to advertise on radio, let's give you some great music.
 Let me sing about your product.
 People will remember it. We can put the phone number in the jingle.
 People will call you. This is like before websites.
 So a lot of people say that's a really good idea.
 I'm going to make an ad buy.
 Let me couple it with a jingle.
 And I sold a ton of jingles, tons.
 And I was every day writing songs.
 And now all of a sudden I'm not depressed.
 I'm not thinking about basketball. I'm thinking about the next step,
 which is music, because that's always been a passion.
 Knowing the history of my folks are both musicians.
 I grew up playing music, taking piano lessons my whole life.
 I focused on basketball, but now I'm starting to figure it out.
 I don't have to be in the NBA. I don't have to go play professional.
 I can do another thing that I really, really love in that music.
 How much of your self worth was baked into basketball?
 All of it. All of it.
 So then when the music thing started to work,
 did some of the sense of self that got you out of the depression
 translate into, okay, maybe I can find another sense of myself in music.
 You were the, yeah, it'd be worth, yeah.
 Yeah, and a lot of that, to be honest, comes from the belief my father had in me.
 And I'm just analyzing this 40 years later or 30 years later.
 He was so confident that I could do anything that I wanted when I wasn't able to play basketball.
 I think it really hurt.
 And it really challenged me to understand well,
 so many people believed in me.
 My dad, my family believed in me.
 And now I'm not accomplishing that, what am I?
 So to your point, yes, I started to have another way to have people say,
 especially my father, my sister, my mom say,
 okay, he's on a path and he's going to be successful.
 But also what it did, maybe more so in the moment than that,
 because I probably wasn't thinking about it that deep was it gave me something to really focus on.
 And my whole life had been built around goals, setting goals,
 working to accomplish them, checking them off, waking up the next day thinking,
 okay, move that goal to the next level, especially coming out of Arizona
 where I learned so much from Coach Olson, I learned so much from Steve Kerr,
 how do we get to that next level of greatness?
 And so, music gave me that thing.
 Whereas a normal person that didn't have the experience that I had in competitive sports
 or have a mentor like Lud Olson or a teammate like Steve would have said,
 okay, I'm going to make music.
 I'm going to see how I'm going to write cool songs.
 I was thinking, okay, I got cool songs.
 How do I get to the next age?
 How do I get people to record them?
 How do they pay me?
 How do I get to LA where people can hear my music?
 And how do I get to produce big artists?
 So I'm thinking 10 steps ahead in quick succession because of the influences that I'd had.
 When did the grinding turn into grinding with a sense of direction of you
 know where you're going?
 Very early.
 Very early because once I realized that I could get paid to make music
 and I'd come from a family of professional musicians.
 Again, my father's drums mom did.
 Well, mom was actually a trombone player, if you could believe that.
 Oh, wow.
 And she went to New England Conservatory of music and Berkeley
 and my mom and dad met there in the music program.
 So I knew the concept of being able to make a living, making music.
 So pretty quickly after I got my first check for a jingle that I wrote,
 I said, okay, this is going to be the step to be a songwriter,
 to be a producer, to maybe sign artists and build a business.
 So you come in, you meet Clive.
 This happens how long after you come back to Los Angeles that the Clive has been happening.
 10 years later, I was set you up with Clive.
 My songwriting partner at the time was a guy named Damon Thomas.
 And we ended up writing a lot of songs together over the years.
 But between the two of us, we knew somebody who knew somebody
 and they said, Clive should hear some of your music.
 So you start doing the music.
 How long did you produce? How many years?
 I'm still going. So it's probably been 20, 27, 28 years.
 How much time do you have to do the producing now with your day down?
 Very little. Very late nights when I'm done with the Academy stuff.
 Sometimes I'll go into the studio and make music.
 What is the job of the CEO of the Recording Academy?
 You have to know that Grammys are put on by an organization called the Recording Academy.
 The Recording Academy's purpose in life.
 It's reason for existing is to support and uplift music people all around the world.
 So the Grammy show is how we derive revenue and we make money.
 And that money is spent all year round doing programs like Music Harris,
 which is the organization that gives money to people who need help.
 The fires this last year, I think we gave with $30 million to people,
 music people who needed help, lost their instruments, burned their studios.
 We do that around drug addiction, mental health awareness.
 If you get robbed, if you have an accident, that money goes to music people.
 And we do that through Music Harris.
 We have our advocacy group, which spends so much money, so many resources in DC
 and other state level legislatures and fighting for the rights of music people,
 intellectual property protection.
 Now with AI, there's a lot to work on through that.
 So overseeing all that.
 Also the education, all the things about who's going to teach these kids music in schools.
 How are they going to afford instruments?
 All the work that we do around education and one of the other pillars of the academy.
 So overseeing all those things.
 And again, zooming back out, why are we doing any of those things is because we care
 and we believe in music, the importance of music.
 And whether you love art, music, fashion, film, I believe all these things in culture
 make a difference to us in the world.
 And I think we need more of that in life.
 Basketball you dreamed of doing, producing you wanted to do.
 I hear the job of the CEO is not something you were looking for.
 No, it was not.
 I was a voting member. I was in a board member.
 I was in the chair of the board, which are all volunteer positions.
 And then they asked me if I would be the CEO.
 And I agreed to do it on a short-term basis.
 I heard you said, I guess.
 I said no.
 Do you say no?
 Two times.
 Because I'm making music.
 I'm in the studio every night.
 I'm producing artists.
 I'm making movies.
 But after thinking about it, it kind of was in keeping with the mentality that I established
 as an artist, songwriter, producer, not artist.
 But I like to serve the greater good.
 I like being on a team.
 You know, as we talked about it, Arizona, one of the best parts about playing basketball
 is being on a team and collectively accomplishing great things.
 So I started seeing the possibility as a CEO of the Grammy organization as somebody who
 could really make a difference and work together as a team.
 And you got all these department heads.
 We all come together to accomplish great things and to serve music.
 And I'd been making music my whole life.
 My parents had been making music my whole life.
 My best friends were in music.
 And I also saw the challenges that were ahead of us as an industry and as a community.
 So it was basically, I accepted the job because I saw it as a service opportunity.
 You manage hundreds of people.
 What is your management style?
 How do you effectively manage?
 I believe my style is one of a person that listens and a person that takes a lot of different opinions, a lot of input.
 And I work.
 It can be an example.
 Somebody comes in.
 They do that.
 You react this way.
 I heard Melinda French gates.
 If she has a presentation and she doesn't like it, she waits 48 hours to get back to the person.
 Well, that's definitely not my style.
 Because she wants to like, you know, formulate whatever.
 So what is your style?
 My style is to get a lot of information, to get it quickly from a lot of diverse inputs.
 I use the collective brain power of the people that I trust in our organization and make quick swift decisions that are going to be in the best interest of music people.
 And I don't wait 48 hours when I'm hearing a presentation.
 If there's something that I'm not a fan of, I'll say, can we stop?
 This doesn't make sense to me.
 Please explain this to me.
 Or I don't really like that.
 Let's change that.
 I'm definitely not a dictator.
 I think the people that I work with will tell you I give people a lot of autonomy, a lot of room to make their own decisions.
 And I work very collaboratively to come to what I think are the best decisions.
 I don't pretend to know everything.
 I pretend to know very little.
 Actually, I do know very little, but I have great people.
 And so my style of leadership is very collaborative.
 And it's creating space for the people that work for me to be able to do their jobs really well.
 Anything you picked up from Clive that you bring to the way you manage people?
 I hope so.
 And I think it comes from Coach Olson as well.
 And Clive always listen to everybody's opinions.
 Sometimes that really pissed me off.
 I play him a record that I knew was great.
 And he'd listen to it.
 And he'd say, Larry, what do you think?
 Then there'll be some guy delivering food in the bungalow.
 He's like, hey, what do you think of the song?
 I feel like why is Clive asking all these people their opinions of music?
 And then I started to understand not so much the waiter or the bus boy,
 but people that he trusted, he wanted their feedback because he knew it was going to help inform his final opinion.
 And so I learned that from Clive.
 And I also learned from Clive that there is no detail too small.
 Clive would sit in the bungalow and evaluate the pitch of the hi-hat.
 It's like, you need the hi-hat to be brighter or you need the tempo to be three beats per minute slower.
 Or you should really think about every detail.
 And this is coming from a guy who's not a musician, who's not in the studio with me all day,
 but he would agonize over every vocal.
 We recorded some of the songs that I did with Whitney 5, 6, 8, 10 times because he would say,
 I think this can be better.
 I think that can be better.
 And maybe that's a little too obsessive in trying to run an organization,
 but it is something I've adopted, which is the way you do everything is the way you do anything.
 It doesn't matter how small it is because some of all those small decisions will amount to some big outcomes that I think could be noticed.
 Charlie Puth, who sat in that chair, said, I sweat the small stuff.
 And he explained why he sees a benefit and I tend to agree.
 I sweat the small stuff, but the problem is a lot of times the group think is, oh my god,
 why are you obsessing over it?
 You know what I mean?
 And oftentimes it's not until your client Davis or Charlie Puth,
 where you can sweat the small stuff without the rest of the people being like, oh, don't be so anal.
 Yeah, and I would imagine it depends on how you sweat it, you know,
 how you verbalize that or what the narrative around why you're sweating the small stuff.
 I'd like to try and think the culture has been established at the organization,
 at the Grammy organization, that the small stuff really matters.
 And I'm not sweating the small stuff because I just want it how I want it.
 We're all sweating the small stuff together because we know how important it is.
 And we know what value that drives to our members or to our board of trustees or to our elected leadership.
 And so it's no longer just me sweating the small stuff.
 And in fact, over the last five years, the style, the culture, how we talk about things in our organization has totally changed
 because it's been ingrained. People have been domesticated to understand and know the small stuff
 and looking at and inspecting and interrogating it, making sure it's right.
 All that is up to really, really be outcomes. And so it's not just me.
 Coach Olson says how you do work with people of varying opinions matters.
 Is that right?
 Yeah, but that's also, that's how you build a great team by sweating the small stuff.
 And to your point, like sometimes you pull your hair out, you're like, why is he care about how I stand on the out of balance plane?
 What I do before I pass the ball. But if the leadership is sweating and thinking about the small stuff,
 and then it becomes part of your thinking as a team member, that's how you build a great team.
 And that's what I saw. It's what got us to the darn final four.
 It wasn't because we didn't care about the small stuff. I can promise you that.
 Talk to me about two things that are certainly not small stuff in your life. Two people. They are.
 My son, Trey Mason, my first born, and my daughter, me and Mason, the coolest people in the world.
 And two of my very, very best friends.
 Good looking bunch there. They professionally, he's a lawyer.
 Yeah, he's an attorney and she's in medical device marketing.
 And the audience who's not watching, we should say that his son is wearing an Arizona jersey.
 He played basketball and he wore your number, right? 44?
 He did. He did. He blew me away. He wanted to go to Arizona. He wanted to wear that number.
 He could have gone to a lot of other schools, but that was his choice.
 Something you always would say to your kids stood out to me in my research.
 You would always say to them, I love watching you play and you set it on purpose. Why?
 Because I thought it was important that they understood that my love was not conditional.
 It was not based on their performance. It was based on them being them.
 And so me being there to just watch them and enjoy and appreciate them.
 I hope gave them sense of security and sense that they were loved unconditionally.
 And that was something I really tried doing still in my kids.
 Maybe that was not something that I always felt as a kid and probably a deeper subject to dig into.
 But I won't pretend that I didn't push my kids because I did.
 We worked really hard. My son and I especially.
 And he was such a good hard worker and so coachable and he was so amenable to my input.
 And we had a great relationship based on that.
 But at the end of the day, after all the hard work and all the early mornings,
 I just enjoyed being in the moment and being able to experience watching them play.
 Dig into that young past, that young Harvey pass.
 Where do you think that came from? You just said it's probably a deeper thing.
 Well, I grew up definitely with a lot of support and love from my mom and dad
 and a lot of confidence building as we talked about.
 But also my dad was great at something.
 He was one of the world's best musicians and still is.
 And so there was a lot of pressure.
 Some of it was put on myself by me and some of it was put on by my dad.
 And he was doing it for all the right reasons.
 He wanted me to be great.
 He wanted me to be successful. He wanted me to find something I was passionate about
 and work really hard at doing it.
 But I think as a kid, you can't process all that sometimes.
 And when the person you look up to the most and you love the most is very demanding
 and expecting a lot from you, that can be hard to rectify or understand what to do with.
 I find that fascinating because it's something that stayed with you.
 Doesn't everyone's childhood and their upbringing or their challenges, especially with their father?
 I think that influences how you grow up for me.
 So I know how it helped you, right?
 It made you the success that you were.
 How did it not help in what ways when you look back?
 That is just not my personality.
 I don't look back and think about the negatives.
 I always, and maybe that's a flaw of mine.
 I tend to just be so optimistic and forward-looking and so thankful.
 I really am appreciative to my dad because he is the reason that I am here,
 along with the other people we spoke about, Clive and Luke.
 But I wouldn't change the way my dad or my family raised me in any way.
 And I think you can look at it optimistically.
 I'm just wondering through the optimistic lens,
 what did you learn that kind of like you did with your son, Tray?
 You said, hey, yeah, I had the greatest upbringing, but I don't want to say that to Tray
 because I want him to always know I'm just here to watch you play.
 Right.
 I know you're going to be great because I'm just here to watch you play because I love watching you.
 So optimistically looking at it, how did it maybe frame some
 of you?
 Because it didn't maybe work with the kid who was you?
 Well, my focus in raising my kids, looking back,
 was always to try and make sure that they felt love.
 Because again, I think there was times in my life where...
 The pressure didn't feel like love.
 Yeah, and then again, it's not my parents fault.
 My dad was doing everything he could to raise a strong, successful young man.
 Again, so thankful for that.
 But there were times when I was down, I felt alone, I felt like I was on my own.
 And I didn't love that feeling and I wanted my kids.
 And I don't know if I succeeded.
 I hope I did.
 And I have a great relationship with my kids.
 But I wanted them to know I was going to ride a die for them no matter if they scored two points or 40 points.
 And as long as they worked hard and were good kids that I loved them.
 And so, you know, I could look back into my father's relationship with his father
 and the circumstances he came out from, you know, almost really not having a father
 and coming from his background and accomplishing so much that he was probably not completely equipped
 to understand what some of those actions were doing to a young boy who looked up to him so much
 and respected him so much.
 And that makes complete sense.
 One of the things your dad talked a lot about which I loved was being coachable.
 And I don't think we spend enough time in a world where we are encouraging people to be their best
 and chase their dreams to talk about coachability.
 What's the lesson there?
 If you can think of being coachable from the perspective of you don't know everything.
 This person across the table or across the studio or across the bench who's coaching you
 is trying to give you something that's going to help you and you can either receive it
 and hear it and implement it or you can push back against it and not listen.
 So it's kind of been a common theme in a lot of the questions you've asked me.
 I'm just now realizing it is being able to listen, being able to absorb that and digest it
 and synthesize it and turn it into something useful.
 And I think maybe in a weird scientific way that's what being coachable means.
 I mean, it makes complete sense to me.
 How coachable are your kids?
 Very coachable. Very coachable.
 And I think it comes from receiving your earliest coaching from someone you love and someone that you trust
 and understanding that person's giving me this information because they care about me and they want me to succeed.
 I should mention you are the first black CEO of the recording academy.
 Yes.
 How meaningful is that to you?
 It's both super meaningful and not even something that I think about at the same time.
 I don't like to over index on that type of stat or thought process because I don't think it's as important.
 But also it's really, really darn important because I think it shows a group of people
 somebody in a position maybe they hadn't seen before.
 And it shows someone in a leadership role that might look like them that they can aspire to be.
 Not to say I'm any grand role model, but it just always helps when you're coming up to be able to be exposed to somebody
 that opens up your aperture, opens up your possibilities and you're framing of who you want to be when you grow up.
 And so if by some miracle somebody sees a black CEO of the Grammy organization or another organization they say,
 oh man, I'm going to work harder to accomplish something like that.
 Then that's I think the reason for me it's it's important.
 Your mother and father are they still alive?
 Yes.
 Live and kicking.
 How are they?
 A great. My dad's still touring playing shows all around the world.
 How old is he?
 78.
 And so he still goes overseas and does shows and we're actually working on a record together right now which has been a lot of fun.
 And my mom is healthy and happy.
 He lives on a ranch with my sister up in Santa Barbara.
 So both parents are great.
 Coach Olson has passed away.
 How long did how long has he been gone?
 Probably seven, eight years, nine years.
 Did you ever get a chance to tell him what he meant to you?
 Thousand percent.
 Thousand percent.
 And what did you tell him?
 I told him I freaking loved him.
 I told him every time I talked to him.
 What makes you emotional?
 Just how much he meant to me.
 And a lot of great memories with him.
 And he impacted so many people.
 So many players.
 All my best friends, guys on my team, my teammates.
 You know, in the moment, as I said, you're frustrated.
 You're angry about something.
 You know, you're 18, 19.
 You're pissed that you're not playing or you're pissed that we had to run at the end of practice.
 All the dumb trivial little things that aggravate you and you're young.
 But after I finished playing, I recognized how much he cared and how important he was to all of us.
 So I get emotional because I miss him.
 I used to talk to him a lot and just share what was going on in my life.
 I'll never forget Coach Olson.
 And this goes in the category of someone who believes in you.
 He said, at some point, this is much, much longer than, you know, after I was playing.
 We would talk about Steve and his coaching and Sean and Elliott, his playing and Kenny Lofton was in the Major League Baseball at that time.
 And he would say, Harvey, you're going to be as successful as all those guys, even though you didn't get a chance to play basketball.
 He said, that's going to make me really proud.
 And I'll never forget when he said that again, a belief from somebody that you respect and look up to and love and for him to say that, I was like, God.
 And it was a little bit of my old school of thinking, which was, I got to use that as motivation because I got to prove him right.
 I got to make sure he understands that he was right and believing me.
 But I also got the confidence and understanding that his expectation for me was maybe even higher than my own.
 It allowed me to live up to that expectation, introduce that level of expectation to me and work to fulfill that.
 I know you dreamed of playing in the NBA and you didn't dream of being where you are.
 Are you happy with where you are? Are you content? Are you fulfilled?
 I'm not fulfilled because that's not a feeling that comes as a part of my personality. I'm super happy.
 I'm thrilled with my life. I feel like I've been very fortunate. I've experienced so many amazing things and continue to do so on a day-to-day basis.
 But I'm never content. I'm not sure that's good or fulfilled.
 Because I'm always wanting for more. I'm not sure that's completely healthy or not. But that's who I am.
 I want to do more. I want to accomplish more. I want to understand more. I want to learn more.
 What more do you want to do?
 It's a long list, David. It's a long list. One of the things that I do with my wife and every year, and it sounds super corny, but January, beginning of the year, I start making my lists.
 I have lists for every year for the last 10 years and I go through all the things I want to accomplish in the next couple months, the next year.
 Then at the end of the year, in Christmas holiday break, my wife and I, we sit down and we look at my list and she makes a list.
 What do we accomplish? I'd have to pull it out and go through it, but there's professional things, things that I want to accomplish in my role at the academy.
 There's family things. There's a amount of times I want to make sure I'm visiting with my parents. There's times I want to experience with my kids.
 There's relationship things that I go through that I want to make sure that Britt and I are accomplishing every year.
 There's financial things and savings and there's service things that I want to accomplish, philanthropic things.
 There's so many different categories. If you saw my list, you'd say, oh, I understand why you're not fulfilled yet because it's a constant chase.
 That's how I love living my life. People say, well, how can you be happy if you're never satisfied?
 And to me, that's the fun of it. I'm not satisfied with my fitness. I'm not satisfied with my work. I want to continue to push. I want to continue to improve.
 And maybe that's troubling. And I'm sure it has been in my past for some of my relationships.
 But can we acknowledge that you're where you are now is bigger than you even dreamed for yourself?
 No. That is not a true statement.
 No.
 Because over the years, the people that believe in me elevated what I dreamed for myself.
 And they allowed me to think even bigger. If you asked me am I at a place more advanced than I thought I would be when I was 17, 18, 16, maybe probably.
 But over the years, in my exposure and experience to the people that believed in me has allowed me to think differently and to continue to evolve and grow and aspire to be in different places.
 Do you have a hobby?
 No, fitness. I work out. And then I spend time with my family. I spend time with my wife and I make music.
 And I love all that. That brings me a lot of what do you say to people who say to me, you work too much.
 You don't have a work life balance. And I spend time trying to explain to them how what I do. I would do if you weren't paying me. That's how much I love it.
 So what do you say to those folks who say, however you work too much? Get a hobby.
 I would say that to me, the work is so enjoyable that it doesn't feel like I'm working too much. And if I wasn't doing this, what am I going to play golf?
 Exactly. I don't love golf. I feel the same way. I love doing music. I love being with music people. I love working with people.
 And you know, when you look at somebody like Clive, who's 95 and still enjoying the heck out of his work, I would hope that that would be me.
 I like to think that I'll be doing some other stuff as well. But being around other people and trying to accomplish a common goal is thrilling to me.
 And that's what inspires me every day to wake up. How are we going to get to this next step?
 Other than watching it as basketball still a part of your life?
 No. Too many knee surgery. I've had seven knee surgeries. I had back surgery a couple of years ago. So my body is not set up for basketball any longer.
 But I did dunk a basketball on my 50th birthday. And then I said, okay, I'm done.
 Let's end where we began with Clive. What would you say to him? I know you'll talk all the time, but I would assume that your conversations don't involve.
 Hey, Clive, let me tell you how much you mean to me. You saw what he said. He will no doubt watch this. What do you want to say to him?
 Well, David, first of all, I want you to know that I do tell people all the time I must say me to me.
 Really? I'm very sentimental. I'm very emotional when it comes to my relationships.
 I tell Clive all the time I love him. I tell him how much he means to me. I'm not sure if he likes that or makes him uneasy or not, but I do it because it's that important to me that he knows.
 And I felt the same with Coach Olson, but I would tell Clive that his mentorship, his leadership, his friendship has made my life and it really has.
 And I've learned so much, experienced so much. Every time I'm around Clive, I learn something new, how he thinks, how he speaks, how he treats people, how he gives people respect, but how he also commands respect and how he manages.
 There's so much that I've learned from him. And I've seen him around others and I've watched how he works around creative people. And that's how I made my living working with creative people.
 But again, I would say to him that I love him. He's one of the most important people in my life along with my family and Coach Olson, some of my teammates.
 And that he has changed the trajectory of my life forever. He's changed my relationship with my family with my kids, definitely with my work, how I run my business, how I care about everything, how passionate I am, how everything matters.
 Those are things that I've learned from Clive and that he's instilled in me. And I try and thank him every chance I get.
 Who would you like to see sit in that chair? I asked Melissa Etteridge that question and some of our other guests. Who do you think would be a great guest for that chair and this conversation?
 I'm always a sucker for music people because I like how they think. I like where their brain comes from and I loved your interview with Charlie.
 So I would love to see maybe a Beyonce or Lady Gaga or Taylor Swift. Somebody that has accomplished great things. And I worked with Beyonce and a lot of those people.
 So I've seen some of the heights of success. But I'd love to hear who believed in them and who got them start on their journey and kickstarted their thinking.
 Harvey Mason, Jr. Thank you for the time and thank you for the vulnerability.
 David, thank you. This has been great. I really appreciate what you're doing and I love the stories that I'm able to hear and listen to and there's so many fun.
 I hope that if anything, people that would hear this would understand and I don't know, we touched on it a little bit.
 When you're in the moment of somebody believing in you, sometimes it doesn't feel like belief.
 It sometimes feel like doubt and feels like they don't believe in you. And my hope is if anybody listens to my story or gets anything from my story is that when you're in the moment and somebody's pushing you and someone's challenging you and someone's asking you to be better.
 And expecting more from you, maybe you can consider that the ultimate sign of belief because if they didn't believe in you, you probably wouldn't be in that situation.
 They definitely wouldn't be challenging you. So I didn't see it at the time. You see it after. But I hate for people to go through life feeling like they weren't believed in when actually there was somebody the whole time right there believing in them, pushing them, challenging them, maybe getting mad at them.
 Maybe, you know, giving them a swat on the back, let's go. And that is the ultimate form of belief.
 You saved the best for last. Thank you. Thank you, David. Be well everybody.
 I'm Harvey Mason, Jr. And the person that believed in me was Clive Davis.
 I thought you might want to know, but this podcast is at the heart of a company I founded called Do Good Crew.
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